
This week I’d like to discuss the Young Earth Creationists and the reason that astronomy and mathematics thoroughly refutes their claim that the Earth was created as is barely more than 6,000 years ago.
The Young Earth premise seems to be based on some literal interpretations of ancient scriptures. For example the commentary on Genesis by Ibn Ezra around the tenth century a.d., though most modern Jewish scholars dismiss such a literal reading of ancient texts. The modern Young Earth Creationism seems to be rooted in writings by the Archbishop Ussher who published the Ussher Chronology in which he dated the Earth from the night preceding October 23, 4004 BC . This of course is in close agreement with many other scholars such as even great minds like sir Issac Newton and Johannes Kepler who placed the beginning of Earth at circa 4000 b.c. and 3992 b.c. respectively among others throughout history.
It wasn’t until the time of William Thomson, a.k.a the first Baron of Kelvin, (Lord Kelvin), who remained an extremely devout Christian throughout his life, that the Earth’s age became generally accepted as ancient. In 1897, Lord Kelvin calculated the age of the planet based on his knowledge of thermodynamics. i.e. the assumption that the planet was molten in the beginning and given the known mass of it and the known rate of cooling, that put the age of the Earth between 20-400 MILLION years. A huge range as you might notice but absolutely correct….except again his knowledge was incomplete. He had no concept of radioactive decay and how that and tidal forces would keep the interior of the Earth molten to this day.
James Hutton, (1726-1797), who is considered the father of modern geology got no respect during his time yet his research and his careful observations ushered in the era in which we look to the record preserved in the rocks for answers and we would forever after talk about the age of the earth in BILLIONS of years.
Newton and Kepler and even Ussher can be forgiven because their knowledge was seriously limited and astronomy was in it’s infancy and geology wasn’t more than the collecting of curious rocks. Lord Kelvin was guilty of not reading about the work of his countryman and focusing instead on his field to the exclusion of others. In fairness to him, it should be pointed out that in Lord Kelvin’s time, modern geology was still disputed by many religious scholars along with Darwinism. There is no such excuse today. The age of the planet is not an opinion and is not open for debate beyond the range of a few tens of millions of years. Radiometric dating is far too precise to allow for any debate on the fact that the planet is at the minimum, ten and a half times as old as Kelvin’s upper estimate but we’re here to talk about astronomy.
If we are to accept archbishop Ussher’s chronology of the Earth, that would put the upper age of the planet at 6,014 years old, next October 23rd. That would mean that the furthest object visible in telescopes would be 6,014 light years away or less. We know this because the speed of light has been measured over and over with a high degree of accuracy and that it is consistent and FINITE. The speed of light that is traveling in a vacuum is 299,792,458 m/s, (meters per second), with a relative measurement uncertainty of four parts per billion. Therefore we see Proxima Centauri, the closest star to our own solar system as it was 4.2 years ago, as it is 4.2 light years away, a light year being the distance it takes a light to travel in a year.
How do we know how far away Proxima Centauri is? Several ways but the one I want to focus on is called stellar parallax. Parallax is the phenomenon of closer objects seeming to move against a more distant background depending on your point of view. Hold a finger about a foot away from your face. Close one eye and then the other. Flip back and forth between eyes and your finger appears to move against a more distant background. We can do the same thing from the Earth with nearby stars. The orbit of the Earth is a rough circle that is about 185 million miles, or 297 million kilometers in diameter. The difference between the views of distant objects from opposite points in the Earth’s orbit around the sun is called the annual parallax. This gives us the definition of a parsec, which is 1 arc second of movement against the background stars per annual parallax. This works out to be 3.26 light years. Now the only limiting factor is how accurately can such things be measured.
Pretty accurately as it turns out. Friedrich Wilhelm Bessel made the first successful parallax measurement of the distance to another star when he measured the distance to 61 Cygni at 10.4 light years way back in 1838. Turns out that the actual value for the distance is more like 11.4 light years but his heliometer was a pretty crude device. This is also the first time an accurate scientific measurement of the distance to another star was made. Bessel was limited by the quality of his instruments but we have much better devices today, both here on Earth and in orbit. Hipparcos was launched in 1989 and can detect parallax of stars as far away as 1,600 light years and next year the Gaia mission will allow measurements of 10 microarc seconds, pushing that distance back to ten of thousands of light years.
WTF does any of this have to do with age of the Earth you ask? And well you should because so far this seems like a study in digression. yet it’s very relevant. As we KNOW the speed of light and we KNOW the distance to nearby stars and we KNOW their luminosity and we KNOW how much that luminosity decreases with a given distance, all we have to do is find a star type with a KNOWN distance and a KNOWN luminosity and then we can extrapolate the distance to similar stars with incredible accuracy. This is called a standard candle and can then be used to measure distances into the billions of light years. This is how we have determined the universe is about 13.73 BILLION years old. Ergo the Earth and the universe cannot be younger than that or the light from these very distant stars which we can measure very accurately would not have reached us yet.
So we would see the Orion Nebula but not the Carina Nebula. The Andromeda Galaxy? We would have no idea it exists. Heck, we wouldn’t even see the center of OUR OWN galaxy if the young Earth proponents were correct, since that lies over 26,000 light years away. We would be existing at the center of a bubble of stars barely 6,000 light years across and every year that passes, we would have more and more stars come into our field of view and astronomy would be more a science of naming, than a science of measuring. The only thing you have to do to refute young Earth creationism is to go outside away from the city on a clear night. The evidence is clear and irrefutable. Just look up.



49 Comments

“Don’t bother me with facts; my mind is made up”-Foghorn Leghorn
Excellent!
(rec’d)
One of these days I’m going to figure out how to post pictures, damn it!
Peg, about the picture thing…
Elliott made a how-to post.
Thanks Kelly. Wish I’d spotted that earlier. Oh well, now I know. :-)
WooHoo! Successful edit
Ta DAH!
Margaret. Are you aware of what the response of this crowd is? They claim that the speed of light itself has varied throughout the existence of the universe. Hence, they state, the ability to see things ‘apparently’ from further back in time….
There is no sense arguing with them. Absolutely none. Radiometric dating is also just ‘wrong’ according to them.
There is no rational argument possible with these people.
Nice exposition of how to measure distance and time in the universe though.
Is the Hubble replacement going to get built and launched btw? Or has it been shelved by the Whitehouse visionary in a bipartisan, unilateral capitulation of some sort or other.
Foghorn Leghorn – LOL!! Yes, indeedy.
Thanks for the good post. Worth reading, but in all seriousness, we shouldn’t even have to be discussing this as if the “young earth” theory had any credibility.
I’ve commented before that when I was a youngster, I was taught in Sunday school that the Bible was essentially true and should be followed. However, the issues discussed about timelines and such should be taken as metaphors (clearly not the term used when I was kid, but basically that). In other words, the creation myth of taking place over 7 days was just a metaphor for how “God” created the earth, and it wasn’t to be taken as 7 human/earth days. I was even told stuff like one day for “God” could equate to millions of human/earth days, and other somewhat sensible stuff like that. I mean: if you believe in “God,” then I can see an explanation like that, which would then basically equate to the “real” age of the earth.
Plus it can also be a good explanation for why there were dinos and other animals and flora, etc, that died off before humans came along. Made a lot of sense to me in grade school, and still has some value to this day.
Somewhere along the line, I parted ways with the church and moved away from the States for quite a while (and had little contact with my fundie family). Lo and behold, upon my return, Pat Buchanon & those crooks had sprung up with the 700 Club and other such shenanigans, and suddenly my formerly somewhat reasonable family members now subscribed to this nonsense.
They had a serious change in their belief system all brought about by Doug Coe, the C Streeters, Pat Buchanon, Lee Atwater, Karl Rove and all the rest of the usual nefarious suspects. Let me tell you, it was like the pod people took over my family. They were always pretty hell fire and brimstone types, but this was a whole new level of nutty craziness.
And so on and so forth. I’ll stop my rant, but thanks for the post. It’s great. That said, it would have no impact on my family, as they would just say that you, Margaret, have been inhabited by Satan, who is forcing you to write these sinful words (I’m not exaggerating).
And on it goes…
I see you’ve got the classic shot of Eta Carinae in your sig, Margaret.
@onitgoes
You’d be absolutely astonished the absurd lengths some of these people, with, believe it or not, engineering or science backgrounds, still go to keep this nonsense ‘alive’.
I once encountered something purporting to be a numerical model for a ‘Young Earth’. It was of course complete bollocks, but had been put together by someone who must have had a smattering of science, even if none of it had gone in their head correctly.
There are statistics about medical students in the UK. Note, UK – theoretically more secular. I believe it is currently up to 50% of them ‘doubt’ evolution and countenance intelligent design. And a substantial rump were indeed Young Earthers. In the UK.
Now, as a scientist, my regard for the scientific knowledge and quality of much of the medical profession isn’t very high (except when I need one) – homeopathy anyone? Advocated for and practised by many qualified doctors. Similarly acupuncture, and any other alternative guff.
But still. Young Earth creationist medical students is a whole different kettle of fish.
Yes. The James Webb telescope is scheduled for launch in 2014. It has been infrared optimized but will also take pictures in visible light.
As for the young Earthers, their opinions are not relevant. I discussed that last week. ;-)
I didn’t see the discussion last week. Of course you’re right.
But you should examine that survey of UK medical students attitudes. It cropped up in the Guardian about a year ago (maybe more).
The results essentially say that a large proportion of UK medical students reject the scientific method. Not good.
Aw shucks. Y’alls fancy words can’t dispute the visual proof that cavemen lived with the dinosaurs
Proof
/s :-)
Well then here ya go. :-)
Oh that was really excellent. You completely dispel my previously expressed prejudices towards doctors….
It’s actually quite frightening what a broad spectrum of degrees of knowledge and understanding inhabits the scientific community though. There have been some really interesting cases. Do you for instance know the story of the Bogdanov twins, and their ‘impressionistic’ physics doctoral theses? All passed and vetted by distinguished committees, whose members subsequently denied that they agreed with their own findings in originally passing the stuff. A string of papers too. A couple in reputable journals.
Great post, Margaret. I really enjoyed it.
I would not want to go to a doctor who believed in the creation nonsense – I think maybe s/he might not believe in good meds either, like antibiotics.
Could it be that cosmologists are looking for dark matter in the wrong place? /s
Anyone else see the relation of these intentionally ignorant persons timeline to how years are counted in judaism?
Peg, just had an idea. We should do a co-post sometime to further refute Young Eartherism via the vehicle of B- blood groups traversing the Bering Bridge down to South America.
With both the blood groups and Athabascan language groups spreading and subsequent development, one can prove 40,000 plus years of inhabited peoples.
You could do the blood groups and alleles, and I could do the language part.
You game?
Oh yeah, science is full of charlatans. Who can forget the myth of cold fusion? That gained widespread acceptance despite it’s very name being an oxymoron. We can’t let those people who discredit themselves to discredit the entire community though.
Surely Kelly, I’d love to. Give me a bit to do some research. :-)
Aside from using lunar months, years are counted the same way in the Hebrew calendar that anyone else counts.
In the Hebrew calendar today happens to be the 30th of Nisan, year 5770
I actually got into an argument once with a creationist doc. I never got him to admit he was wrong but I did manage to shame him but properly.
Yep and my birthday is the 16th of Toyota…. ;-)
I never understood the cold fusion claim. Was it actual fraud? Or just delusion? Or a mixture of both?
I wonder how many true charlatans there are. My experience suggests the majority of cases are people who passed through the net despite not being any good at all, and got ridiculously over-promoted, and then were ultimately too ignorant to realise what they were doing. There are far more clueless folks than genuine fraudsters.
My only claim to achievement is that I learned enough to realise the near-boundlessness of my own ignorance. But that in itself takes some doing and is actually quite useful!
Heh – I’ll have to find it, but I have a Scientific American that addresses the migration piece vis-a-vis the blood group and allele typing. I’ll send it to you.
Plus the Athabascan roots to the prevalent S. American language groups will take me a bit of time too.
It’s strange, but true, that Inuit, Apache, Tewa and Quiche Maya are related language groups.
LOL!
It was mistaken data that the claimant held onto for too long. Stay tuned as I intend to explore this myth along with hot fusion, anti matter and other exotic power sources, some of which are possible, some of which are not.
Yes, I’m certain I’ve read that somewhere. May be that very Scientific American.
Margaret,
I may print your article out and take it to the Wasilla Tea Party event tomorrow to elicit comments. Their idea of “young earth” is all too often “pregnant at 16.” I’ll be riding my dinosaur there, through the snow.
“their claim that the Earth was created as is barely more than 6,000 years ago.”; close enough for horseshoes and religion.
Great read Margaret, thanks.
Reminded me of my junior college astronomy course.
The prof was so good, I took his second level course, cosmology.
Had to read and understand ‘Red Giants And White Dwarfs’ . . . the math of parallax and such killed me, I was NOT good with math in any fashion, and the romanticism of the astronomy fell to the science of cosmology.
But I liked it all!
As The Star Hustler used to say: “And don’t forget to keep looking up.”
*G*
Oh wow! A tour of some of the best perpetual motion machines too?
Another example where it is hard to tell if delusion or outright fraud. Steorn, that ridiculous Irish company that still keeps on spinning its nonsense 5 years after its ridiculous beginnings.
By the way. Is there a list of who the “Young Earthers” in Congress are? If not, someone should try and make one.
I need to quibble
There is no debate. The age of the Earth is estimated to an accuracy of 1-2%.
Toyota Not Ford? Oh, I’ve been so driven to distraction!!
Yes, but it’s very high risk doing field experiments next to the MLO (Massive Limbaugh Object). It’s hard to distinguish dark matter from the out-gassing that spews from the MLO’s orifices.
The MLO’s near field is a hostile environment.
1 to 2 percent of 4.5 billion years is 10 to 20 million years, or “a few tens of millions….”. Just sayin’…
Please feel free. :-)
Yep Larue, the mathematics is what ended my ambitions into astronomy as well. I can do basic math to intermediate math and geometry and trigonometry are easy for me but algebra and calculus always trip me up.
Uh. Are you saying that light leaving distant stars would not travel in the direction of the earth if earth did not exist yet?
Because that’s how I’m reading it.
If there is no monkey in the middle to try to catch the ball, then is the ball truly being thrown?
It is an age-old mystery.
Of course not! How could you possibly get that? I’m saying that IF the universe was only 6,014 years old next October, how could we possibly SEE light from stars that have been PROVEN to exist far beyond 6,014 light years away from us? Sorry I wasn’t clear.
You are confusing the young earthers with the young universers. The young universers believe God set up a whole bunch of projector screens and showed movies of other galaxies and stars on them so that their images would reach the earth and make us question our faith. This was done at the same time he was burying fake giant lizard bones in the ground to make it look like there were dinosaurs.
Also, black holes are just rips in the projector screens, so you can’t see anything behind them.
Oh please! Give me a little more respect than that. “Young Universers” indeed!
(emphasis mine) The Bible states that the Earth and the cosmos was created all at the same time and that’s what these people postulate. Let’s not be so specious as to run off the rails.
“You’d be absolutely astonished the absurd lengths some of these people, with, believe it or not, engineering or science backgrounds, still go to keep this nonsense ‘alive’.”
Sadly: No, I wouldn’t be astonished, but I enjoyed reading your posts and those of others.
Thanks again, Margaret, and I’ll look forward to future posts about science. I am somewhat science and math challenged, myself, but my sweetie is a scientist. I believe he would agree that a lot of the nonsense, like cold fusion, is not so much fraud as incompetency or a sort of Peter Principle playing out in the science world.
It is my opinion, though, that some of these “christianist” leaders (disclaimer: not all Christians fall in this category, nor do they behave this way, etc. Many, many good and true people are wonderful Christians) promote junk like this keep their “flocks” dumbed down and malleable. That’s just my take on it from personal experience watching charlatans fleece my family at their church (my opinion). No linkies available.
Dark Secrets: What Science Tells Us About the Hidden Universe
But “The Heavens” refers only to the sky, clouds, and the black pinhole-ridden dome that god placed over the earth disc to keep the air in.
The universe still existed on the other side of that, like a feisty seagull trying to break the turtle shell dome of the earth so that Satan could get at our tasty, tasty souls.
Also, the days were longer back then because the earth disc wasn’t rotating yet. So six days took like forever.
Then when Galileo shattered that dome and the earth started rotating, that’s when god set up all the projectors to trick everyone into losing their faith, because he’s kind of a dick that way.
i agree with almost all of your comments, but the theory of inflation states that the universe was expanding at speeds exceeding light speed after the big bang.
Space itself was expanding faster than the speed of light. Relativity tells us that objects in space cannot travel at faster than light speed but it does not limit space itself to a set speed. Inflation theory tells us that the whole inflationary epoch expanded the universe from many times smaller than a proton to about the size of a grapefruit, so I’m not sure about inflation’s relevance to this discussion…