I imagine most of us watched plenty of Star Trek, Star Wars and etc. when we were younger, I’ll bet many of us still do. Even those who were never really science fiction fans had to be aware of it. You know the premise: A starship crew travels to far away places, encountering aliens, preventing invasions of the Earth and saving the universe as we know it. More times than not the travellers originate in the Sol system and radiate out to stars with familiar names like Rigel, Vega, Alpha Centauri or Altair. Our carbon based, oxygen breathing heroes almost never need environmental suits when adventuring on the planets orbiting these distant points of light and it usually only takes weeks, days or even hours to get to their destinations. This of course is important in order to keep the plot line moving. I mean who wants to watch a movie that mostly consists of people eating, sleeping, performing routine maintenance or just passing the time? The only movie that I can think of offhand that approached space travel in a realistic way was 2001 A Space Odyssey and it’s important to note that story took place almost entirely within our inner solar system, right up until the climactic and altogether confusing ending.
A couple of films have tried to approach space travel in a different manner. In both the Alien series and in the recently released Avatar film, the sticky, (and boring), subject of long space travel was dealt with by having the crew sleep through most of the journey, thus negating the need to bore the audience silly with make work tasks that will inevitably be the vast majority of any long space journeys. Most books, television series and movies though, use some form of faster than light travel. Battlestar Galactica and Dune used a less common version of science fiction faster than light travel in which coordinates were entered, the engines were engaged and the whole kit and caboodle was immediately folded into it’s destination. The more common versions of fictional faster than light travel is usually in the form of a warp drive arrangement in which space in front of the vessel is dramatically shrunk while the space behind it is expanded by an equal amount. . . .
Like the suspended animation of some science fiction stories, such is necessary or our space pioneers would be long dead and turned to dust before they got anywhere near where they were going. Even in the Alien series, when they are woken up early and found themselves in orbit of LV-426, Lambert, the navigator told them that they were still six months from home. This means that plot expediting, medically induced sleep notwithstanding, they still must have been traveling many times faster than the speed of light. Though there used to be a number of science fiction books which tackled the method, I can’t think of any motion pictures or television programs that use generation ships, which is about all we are even remotely capable of doing right now.
Now, as strange as it may seem, all of these methods are theoretically grounded in sound science. For example, though physics tells us that the ultimate speed limit in the universe is the speed of light, no such laws govern the speed at which space itself can expand. This can be seen in inflationary theory. If that idea is sound, then early on the universe itself expanded at many, many times faster than the speed of light. Thus the “warp drive” method is scientifically feasible. The instantaneous transfer across vast distances can also be theoretically accomplished by creating some sort of artificial singularity which could then form a wormhole. Never mind the enormous quantities of power involved or the tricky problem of having it come out exactly where you want it to or for that matter finding the power to somehow emerge from the event horizon of said singularity when you reach the other side, it could someday be possible.
Why do the science fiction writers have to go to such lengths to explain away space travel before the plot even starts to unfold? It’s important to put distances into perspective. Space is vast, huge, enormous, mind bogglingly big. The distances are almost unimaginable to us for whom a long journey might be from San Diego to Orlando. Here’s some perspective: Let’s represent our solar system, all the way out to the orbit of Neptune using a tiny disc that is one millimeter in diameter. Go ahead and find a ruler and look at the millimeter mark. Most of those of us who were born in 1960 and before may have trouble even resolving individual millimeter lines without some sort of aid. Now, on this scale, the very nearest star to us, Proxima Centauri, (which is about 4.243 light years away) would be about 14.622 feet from our tiny disc! Keep in mind that we are representing the diameter of the solar system with just one millimeter. The New Horizons spacecraft is the fastest thing ever launched by human beings. By a lot. It launched on January 19, 2006 and won’t reach Pluto, (which is currently just outside Neptune’s orbit) until July 14, 2015. That’s over nine and a half years traveling just about half a millimeter on our scale! Recently there was a stir about Gliese 581g, a possible exoplanet located in the habitable zone of it’s parent star. Gleise 581 is about 20.3 light years away, which on our scale puts it at 69.95 feet away from the center of our one millimeter disc. The center of our own galaxy would be almost exactly 17 MILES away and the near edge of the Andromeda galaxy would be about 1,305 miles from us. So, if the fastest spacecraft we are capable of launching travels at just half a millimeter in a decade, how long would it take to travel 14 1/2 feet? 70 feet? How about 17 miles? If it takes almost ten years to travel barely half a millimeter, how long would it take to drive halfway across the United States?
Personally, I love science fiction and I love science. Why else would I spend part of my day doing this sort of mental exercise? It’s fun to keep it all in perspective though. So the next time you’re watching an old, original Star Trek episode, remember that according to Trek doctrine, Spock’s home planet is over 56 and a half feet away. On our millimeter scale of course.




77 Comments

Beam me up, Scottie! Wow! You have learned this stuff at Warp speed. I wish our politicians could think a little faster and work on what they were sent to DC for. Maybe Captain Kirk needs to head up this starship.
Just useless mental exercises I do from time to time. It started off by wondering if a city’s lights at night time were a useful analog to a galaxy and it turns out they are on a scale about half that of our millimeter scale explored here. If the light sources were almost microscopic that is.
Margaret, tejanarusa has been trying to contact you about dinner on Thursday. Hopefully, you have seen her message at the end of Saturday’s PUAC.
Thank you Margaret,
Best coffee break read here in a while. It is a pleasant diversion from all things political and the science (not fiction) of global warming and environmental degradation that is not so very well represented but needs to be discussed ever so much more urgently.
I am amazed that you are not a professional writer of some sort and getting paid for it. Your intelligence, recall, and concise, cut-to-the-chase wit, demonstrated here regularly is impressive and wryly entertaining to say the least. Hope we see more from you, often. Book reviewers would be saying something like, “a national treasure.”
I just became aware of that this morning, thanks. I haven’t caught up with her yet though.
Thanks for that! High praise indeed considering my parents would have been horrified at the “waste of time”.
One good trend has been for movie and TV producers to admit that there is no sound where there is no material of density sufficient to transmit sound waves. Thus, when explosions happen in space in the Firefly series and movie, and in the latest StarTrek reboot, they happen in silence (well, there were musical soundtracks, but no explosion sound effects).
Again, Kubric was the pioneer, as 2001′s outside scenes were also dead silent, (except for the Blue Danube playing in the backgorund), but I’m sure Arthur C Clark had some input in that. He would have insisted.
“For example, though physics tells us that the ultimate speed limit in the universe is the speed of light”. Please cite your source.
Unfortunately, this is possibly the most common mistake made by some people which is interpreting the EFE’s and GTR in this manner. There is nothing in either that limits the speed in the universe. In fact both are symmetrical “around” the speed of light. …dg…
I did cite my source. It is linked with the speed of light highlighted in blue. Their source citations are at the bottom of the page and they include Albert Einstein. There have been some experiments done that seem to result in quantum effects or information traveling faster than c but those results are in dispute. Plus I wasn’t talking about quantum effects or subatomic particles or information. I was talking about moving real mass through real space faster than the speed of light. I would very much like to see your citation that such is possible.
I stand by my remarks: the speed of light when it travels through a vacuum is 299,792,458 meters per second and is the upper speed limit in the universe as we understand it.
I told her just today that she has such a great Charm and presence online it would be a waste not to do more with it.
thanks, very entertaining to read that.
Since I (and at least one Apollo astronaut, and the commander of an American missile silo in Montana, and a lot of others) believe that there are not from earth craft here, now, I have no problem believing that it is possible to travel at these transiting the universe speeds.
why not?
just cause we don’t know how.
H.G. Wells anticipated the future, describing in his writings in the 18th century for instance, the essence of an atomic explosion.
thinking of someone else, though he did write about it, but 1901.
Heinlein also had his variant of “astrogation” where space could be folded to get from point A to point B when they were light years apart.
He did have the plots where the ships had to travel at mundane speeds out a distance from the various planets in order to make their “jumps”
Gordon Dickinson had a variant as well
I have no problem believing that someday it will be possible as well. Especially in light of the fact that just about every piece of conventional wisdom ever adopted has been proven wrong. Human flight and then breaking the sound barrier are just two relatively recent, (in the time scale of human history), examples of this. I wasn’t attempting to evaluate the future possibilities so much as to discuss how science fiction writers have approached the problem and to give some context to the distances involved.
Yep. “Tunnel in the Sky” was one of my favorites!
Great fun listening to your mind.
Regarding you statement, ‘…then early on the universe itself expanded at many, many times faster than the speed of light.”
Allow me to suggest one addendum to your statement. In that brief instant during which the Guth postulated rapid inflation of the universe took place, light photons had not yet been created-the universe was dark, and so the speed of light possibly not being the yeardstick of the upper limit of ‘speed’ would have to be carefully qualified. The subject of worm holes in space as a means of beating the speed of light was highlighted in the film, ‘Contact’ and a great read on the subject is ‘Black Holes and Time Warps: Einstein’s Outrageous Legacy’ by Kip Thorne.
Loved your diary.
Good point but then space and time really didn’t exist as we know it now at and just after Planck time. I’m glad that you enjoyed it. :)
Just a quick hit & run comment, but tnx for the enjoyable read!
About a thousand years from now schoolkids will chuckle over our physics and cosmology ‘mythology’. ;-)
Almost certainly true!
I finally had a moment to read your post, Margaret. Pretty amazing stuff… I was never a big fan of the original Star Trek… I just couldn’t hack Shatner. Patrick Stewart, on the other hand, I could see as the captain of a star ship.
Loved the diary. Have been a sci-fi nut since I was a child. My fav comic strip – that shows my age – was Space Gordon. I have always thought that it would be done eventually. The landing on the moon was one of the high points of my life. I hope that you will write more re science. thanks
I can hardly wait until they really get closer to the beginning that the barrier of Planck time. I am not holding my breath.
Again, thanks
Patrick Stewart is dreamy whereas Shatner is just, m’eh.
Great diary, Margaret. Have you been a sci-fi reader for a long time? I posted something a few weeks ago, and either you didn’t see it or don’t have an answer — or you answered and I missed it.
Many years ago I read a series of books by the same author that I recall as mysteries, but set in the future so they really were sci-fi too. This would have been when I was in H.S. or college, probably, so they’re not new. I’d have been reading Asimov or Heinlein at the time. In these books, the mode of getting around the city, the country, the planet, were “frames” like doors that one walked through and emerged instantly at the destination.
I don’t read much sci-fi any more, but would love to track down the author and read him (I think male) again. Does this ring a bell at all?
Yep. I’ve been a scifi reader forever, though my brother out classes me by orders of magnitude. Larry Niven had a mode of transportation called transfer booths, though I don’t remember them being called “frames”. That term in that context is familiar though. Next time I see John, I’ll try to remember to ask him. Cool beans?
Yup. And it was m-a-n-y years ago, so they may not have been called frames, but I don’t remember “transfer booths” either. My mental picture over all of these years was that they were like doorways that one just walked through and emerged on the other side of in one’s desired destination. They were usually secondary to the story, except that they were set in the future, which also was the story obviously.
I read voraciously, tons of sci-fi and mysteries and best sellers (as I got older) but then had kids and worked full time and went back to school, and….and….I still read, but I spend lots of time online and my reading of late tends to be political stuff (and the Dragon Tattoo trilogy). I’ve never gotten back into sci-fi.
I’m glad that you liked it Twain. I have written a couple of other sciencey diaries though it’s been a while. They are still linked though.
You know who that sounds like to me? Frank Herbert. He wrote stories sometimes when the futuristic aspect and technology was secondary or even tertiary to the plot.
I don’t think so, but only because I read Dune and Children of Dune, and I’m pretty sure if the books were his I’d have made the connection and remembered it. I just remember that the stories were sort of mystery/adventures but set in the future. But it was so long ago that my recollection may be completely faulty.
And I’m glad to see you and Tejanarusa make connection. She posted her email address at one point — hope you saw it (maybe I can find it, if not).
me too.
msmolly: I found her email already but thanks. :)
Actually, looking at the Dune website, I think I probably read ALL of them. I had forgotten. I think the stories I’m thinking of predated Dune by many years, but since Dune came out in the mid-60s, maybe not. I still think if they were by Frank Herbert I wouldn’t have forgotten.
OK. My work here is done. (grin)
I did not read any of the later ones, by Herbert’s son. I didn’t even know about those. This perks my interest. I may have to go back and read Dune again one of these days.
That should be ‘I can hardly wait until they really get closer to the beginning and inside of the Planck barrier.’
Just for gins, if the universe before the ‘Big Bang’-hot or cold, was smaller than the nucleus of a hydrogen atom, where did that singularity come from?
Yes, I know I just crossed the line between cosmology into philosophy and religion, and there was no time as we know it before the big bang, but if you would toss a thought or two on this subject my way, I would be awfully obliged ma’am. Got to get back and tend the dogies on the north forty.
That’s a good concise roundup, Margaret. Of course, there are other examples of all of those space-shrinking technologies. Star Trek has even had episodes where they encounter ships using suspended animation (“Space Seed” being the most memorable to me). The Stargate series, of course, postulated a sort of airport system of gates that could be used to travel more or less instantly to other planets, kinda like the Hyperion novels…
As you say, these are mostly convenient devices that make it possible for Our Heroes to be able to have adventures before they’re so old they have to leave it to their grandchildren, but it’s interesting to speculate.
Speaking blasphemy here but I wasn’t a big fan of Dune. I only read the ones that Herbert himself wrote. “Under Pressure” now or “The Green Brain”… that was good reading.
I confess I didn’t think of Stargate but that is, as you say and others have pointed out here, also a staple of sciFi fast travel.
Yes, indeed!
Babylon 5, incidentally, used the concept of hyperspace as the way of shortening space travel. Gates could take you there, and then you had to navigate through this weird, not terribly intuitive place to get to the gate nearest where you wanted to get to. From there, travel was sub-light only, so you’d better pick the right one.
The first half of Dune was pretty good, but after that it was pretty dull… in my opinion. Anyone else think so?
I dunno, I read all six of the Herbert the father written Dunes (plus a few of his others).
It was one of those where he took a long path to bring things back full cycle.
I also enjoyed most of the Asimov where he tied the Foundation back to the Robot/Empire series.
The biggest thing I’ve always enjoyed about all these (as well as folks like Joe Haldeman, Niven/Pournelle, Mike Resnick, Gordon Dickinson is the optimism they show that we’ll eventually make it out to the stars
Yep and as I remember, that hyperspace was impossible to navigate through and if you lost the beacon, you were stuck in it. I always wondered how it was they even managed to set up the gates traveling at sublight. The teams who were designated to set them up were mentioned from time to time but the explanations were never forthcoming.
Hmmm… I wouldn’t call “Footfall” particularly optimistic but I agree that those authors make you think. One of my favorite Trek episodes is when they found the Dyson Sphere. Niven wrote a couple of Trek toons but I wish he’d written a lot more for that franchise.
My own belief is that our universe was born out of the crush of matter in another universe. Not necessarily cyclical in that one universe infinitely explodes, expands, contracts and explodes again but more like boiling water where bubbles form around impurities, (in this case random differences in density), Think of two or more expanding bubbles in a hypothetical omniverse colliding and creating a tiny pocket of super dense material that then rebounds outward and forms another bubble.
I have absolutely nothing but my own fantasizing to base that idea on. ;)
Hmm. These are beginning to ring a faint bell. Could have been airport-type gates. Some sort of public transportation system that everyone used, and the gates would be in a specific place.
I loved Dune, but barely remember it now. I might have an entirely different take on it these many years later.
Thank you Margaret. With all the bad news in the world on a daily basis, it is beyond nice to read something to take one’s mind off things. My secretary and friend at work, died last night. She had cancer. Found out 2nd week of September, and is now dead. Believe it or not, your diary helped me think about something else. Thank you.
Wow! Sorry about the loss of your friend. Glad what I wrote could help even in a tiny amount.
Thanks Rayne for putting the magazine cover up. Wish I knew how to add graphics. I couldn’t find the tool in the diary dashboard.
Wow, Margaret, what a cool diary.
I too think about this stuff all the time.
What do you think about this one-way trip to Mars stuff? Wanna go?
Hmmm, that depends. I wouldn’t want to be stuck on Mars but if I was honest with myself, I’d probably leap at the opportunity. I’ve never been a fan of missions that were designed to be cheap though and saving the high cost involved is the whole point of not returning. If they are going to scrimp on that, I wouldn’t be terribly comfortable wondering where else they were going to cut corners.
I figure they might spend the money saved on making the trip incredibly plush and inviting. Lots of opportunities for mischief-making and hoopla. Then, of course: Mars.
But we’d be forever famous! If there is a forever, of course.
Like I said, if I was honest, I’d probably jump at the opportunity. :)
Margaret, Thanks for the Diary.
One of my “youthful indiscretions” is that I attempted to write a sci-fi Trilogy titled, The Medicine Man Metaphor” and after creating the first draft, it got tossed into the proverbial trash can, given that “time” was one Construct I could not overcome. Thusly, the Reader, would be wasting his or her time, since the ongoing “experience of the moment” could not be repeated or as being past-paced for action.
As such, I started with the precept of “recycling” as seen by the Indigenous here in our hemisphere, or for the Navajo “transmigration” perspective and without the philosophical or religious overtones. Thus, one’s tree of life consisted of a multiplicity of lifes-lived and equating to both the context and content for branches and leaves of particular branches. Moreover, a series of “lifes” lived and spread out over a millenia relative to “earth-years” would be available, in which the “person” of today’s present tense would have both a vivid recall of all these previous lives lived during this one-stop here on Earth, could be utilized in order to solve the one-problem that needed to be resolved, and consequently, no earth-shattering relevations, need occur.
And the overall purpose was to “move” quietly through this “life on Earth” without attracting much if any attention while here in present physical form. However, moving from Point A to Point B and beyond, was my inability to explain from the acceptability standpoint for the Reader, and which led to my discontinued effort. Hell, I even tried on the ethereal “embilical cord” mindset prevelent among us afficionados for the Great Matriarch that is “All Good and Decent”.
Thus, the sci-fi “action” is found in this moving from Point A to Point B, and which is what I could not overcome, given my penchant for a non-action resolution to a human dilemma, and done from a personal level, and saving the world is not on a personal level, as seen in the War of the Worlds. But, in my mind and to this day, the Great Matriach continues to percolate when it comes to another Transmigratory Life. :-)
Jaango
What a great diary.
I want a ship like Flinx’s and a minidrag like Pip.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pip_and_Flinx
Much more pleasant than the Thrint certainly
Great Dairy Margret. I’ve been a sci fi fan since I was 6 yrs. old. One of the 1st books I ever read maybe the 1st even was Robert Heinlein’s ..RED Planet. Since then I’ve read hundreds of Sci Fi books and I’ve seen most of the major Movies and TV series as well. My fav. author these days is a retired UC San Diego Computer Science Prof. Vernor Vinge and my fav novel is his Hugo winning novel written in 1993 – “A Fire Upon the Deep.” He’s since written a sequel to that novel called “A Deepness in the sky” & last I spoke with him by e-mail he’s working on a 3rd novel of this series based on the Fire Upon the Deep universe. The man is a genius.
Thanks for the interesting diary Margaret.
It reminds me of how Babylon 5 creator J. Michael Straczynski dealt with the issue of science and space travel. Many aspects of the show were very science based. But he did admit that his space ships traveled at the speed of plot.
In the B5 universe, some of the bigger ships had thier own jump engines, they didn’t even need gates.
But the whole concept of beacons and getting lost in hyperspace was always left a bit fuzzy.
Thanks for your thoughts. I have studied this subject for many years and still get a thrill looking through my own beloved GPS computer guided scope at ancient light.
One of the really interesting aspects of the possible cycle(s) of the big bang and the big crush to which you alluded is that Einstein’s equations indicate that while we see the arrow of time heading in one direction due to entropy, his equations suggest that time can move in both directions.
Sir Thomas Malory hit upon this dual direction of time notion in the fifteenth century with his Le Morte d’Arthur.
In his story the magician Merlin keeps getting younger until one day he just disappeared. Sounds like “The Curious Case of Benjamin Button’ only almost 600 years earlies.
But then, of course, this is all an illusion, wrapped within a dream, the product of a bio-chemical soup, and pondered upon by slightly evolved pond scum. Again, great fun chatting with another who stands in awe of the beauty and terror of the universe. The best to you and yours.
The very first book I read that wasn’t full of cartoony illustrations was when I was six and it was War of the Worlds and I was hooked since then. I read a lot of Wells, Howard, Burroughs, Lovecraft, that whole group in my elementary years and then discovered Heinlein, Sturgeon, Assimov, Clarke and etc. Later on, I spent a period with people like Crichton and Zelazny, with a little Morcock and Tolkien thrown in. No matter how my reading tastes have evolved, there is still nothing like a well written scifi novel. Herbert, Pournell, Niven, Donaldson, Pullman….all of these have one thing in common: they make me think outside the mundane boundaries of the universe we inhabit.
military sci-fi is alive and well.
check out baen.com and they have a free reading section
for example:
http://www.webscription.net/10.1125/Baen/067131940X/067131940X.htm
Great diary, Margaret.
You left out my favorite interstellar propulsion method, accidently detonating a lunar nuclear waste dump and sending the entire moon hurtling across the galaxy (Space 1999). It’s so unashamedly WRONG on SO many levels… ya just gotta love it.
Yeah, well I guess I could never get past the creepiness of Martin Landau. barbara Bain was kinda weird too.
I’m glad that you enjoyed it. :)
I never watched it, they were WAY too creepy for me too. I think botox injections actually contain extract of Martin Landau. Also, even as a kid the premise was too preposterous for me, plus the stories were boring. The moon bus models were kind of cool, though.
Biocentrism posits that consciousness created the universe and is the universe because the observer cannot be separated from the observed. All consciousness is connected via the principle of non-locality.
According to this theory, infinity is real and the finite world is an imaginary construct for the sake of having an experience. Time and space do not exist except as ideas to facilitate the sensation of experience. We do not have to travel to get anywhere because we are already there. The future and the past do not exist because there is only the NOW.
We are immortal and there really isn’t anything to worry about because nothing is as it appears and pain and suffering are only illusions.
While I don’t agree with everything you said, it’s always been my opinion that we are the universe evolving to contemplate itself. Like neurons, we aren’t going to reach our full potential stuck here. It will be when all of the separate civilizations develop complex connections that the universe will truly become aware.
Yeah, me too. Between the premise, Landau and Bain, I just couldn’t put up with much of it.
We shall find life on other planets in other solar systems and galaxies because we’ve thought of the idea. In this way, science fiction serves as a vehicle for consciousness to create a universe for us to explore and colonize.
If all of this is true, where do our thoughts come from? Who or what imagined us into being? Who are we? What are we?
Perhaps we have imagined and created our personalities and our identities are no more than a projection onto a two dimensional screen that we also have imagined.
Yes. I agree.
OT– Pardon me, sir, have you seen this up in the KY group (link: http://my.firedoglake.com/members/doug0013/activity/54031 )?
Again, I think the universe is or will be sentient. We are the universe and it is us. In a very real and practical sense. After all the very atoms that make us up formed in the centers of long dead stars.
Long late to this thread but I was a sci fi junkie from 67 years thru early 20′s n more . . . and scattered rereading since then.
Great thread Margaret . . . brings back such memories recalling the books I read that you mention, others mention, countless discussions late at night on Friday back yard sleep outs . . .
Child hood wonders and memories of the stars.
Foundation.
Lensman.
Skylark.
Dune.
Beastmaster.
Countless other singular stellar masterpieces from Andre Norton, Phillip K Dick (Spindizzy’s?), Asimov, Heinlein, Brdbury, so many others.
Zelany, Blum . . . We used to have six 3 shelf bookracks in our home, all Sci-Fi and sports and fantasy . . .
Heh, Tom Corbett, Space Cadet.
Tom Swift. Jr. AND Sr. (used to have Sr’s originals my mom’s dad left us but I think they got sold when we hit hard times).
Door Into Summer.
Green Hills Of Earth.
Michael Valentine Smith.
So many . . .
*shakeshishead*
Thanks again for the thread . . . a GREAT read.
That ‘frames’ meme got to me too . . . n the whole ‘station’ thing where the frames were what folks would use like local transit. I recall that.
Great thread . . . and a needed one . . . for the escapism we all need, to get us thru hard times, to remind us we are at times only what we can dream . . .
We can be what we can dream. It’s not just child’s play.
It’s adult salvation.
*bows*
No, I haven’t. I didn’t even realize that we can communicate with each other in our groups. Thanks for alerting me. I just posted an answer to his message.
Once asked how fast some of the ships in his B5 universe traveled, Joe (Michael) Straczynski answered “at the speed of the plot”. Sometimes, there really is no better explanation.