(photo by sheepfur)
Chemistry has never been my strong suit but it’s easy enough to understand the basics. You take this atom and combine it with that atom and you have a molecule with unique properties, usually much different than it’s component atoms. Take the difference between hydrocarbons and carbohydrates for example: If you have a mixture of carbon and hydrogen, you have a hydrocarbon (which makes fuels, lubricants, etc), but if you add a little bit of atomic oxygen, (as opposed to O2 which is what we breathe), you now have a food. Pretty cool, eh? That little oxygen atom, (and whether it’s bonded with other oxygen atoms), makes a world of difference. The carbohydrate is beneficial and necessary for life while the hydrocarbon will poison and even kill you.
Let’s take another example: Gasoline and water. While water is not a hydrocarbon or carbohydrate, (not having any carbon), it is chemically similar to hydrocarbons like gasoline. Water is H2O while a typical gasoline mixture is 2 C8H18, (the carbon atoms vary in number from 4 to 12). Now we’ll add an oxygenator to the mixture and we have 2 C8H18 + 25O2. Do we now have a carbohydrate? No, clearly we now have an oxygenated hydrocarbon. The result is combustion, producing 16CO2 + 18H2O and a lot of heat. But what if we ignore all of the carbon and most of the hydrogen? If we made our formula look like 2 C8H18 2 + 25O2 (which we can do quite easily with a little strategic ignoring of components and rearranging of terms), is our product now safe to drink? Of course not! It’s still just as much gasoline and just as deadly as it was before we convinced ourselves that the carbon and hydrogen were just as benign as they are separately and could thus be ignored. But how can that be, you ask? Carbon is nothing more than charcoal or graphite and not deadly poisonous, right? Diamonds don’t poison people! If you eat one, you’ll just poop it right back out without your body chemistry being remotely affected. Except in chemistry, like in people, it’s the whole that matters. It’s the mixture, not of the individual atoms that define it’s overall properties.
The same can be said about Ron Paul. I too have listened to and applauded him when he spoke on the floor of the House of Representatives in Opposition to the Iraq war fiasco and have been very interested and very supportive of his position on the so called “war on drugs” but then, while I was still paying attention, I heard him speak against all corporate regulations, a woman’s right to choose and a progressive tax structure. I heard him personally defend, (and later deny having done so), overtly racist newsletters his office put out. I noticed that his homophobia is about as deep and uninformed as homophobia gets and I have heard him rant against civil rights protections and I heard when he said supply side, Randian economics are going to save this country, (regardless of the fact that we’ve been trying just that since at least 1980 and it hasn’t done anything but pushed 99% of us further into poverty, while making the one percent, [like Paul himself], much richer). It’s his overall philosophy that makes Ron Paul dangerous and one can’t just ignore his failings or assume that there will be a functional and effective Congress to make sure his leash stays on him. Anti foreign adventure, anti war on drugs, etc are all good things and greatly to be desired but then you add his economic philosophy, his bigotry, his misogyny, his comically simplistic “understanding” of the Constitution, the role of the courts, etc and Ron Paul becomes gasoline and no amount of bleating about how people who speak the truth about Ron Paul are Obamabots or are “steeped in blood” is going to change him into water.
I’m not going to ignore the carbon and most of the hydrogen that is in a Ron Paul molecule and agree with the idea that those good things in him can be separated from the overall bigoted, supply side, misogynistic asshole that the guy really is. No more than I’m going to ignore the carbon and most of the hydrogen in gasoline and call it “water”. Ron Paul isn’t “progressive” anymore than gasoline can be a substitute for water.




70 Comments

Outstanding post, Margaret. Wish I could recommend it more than once.
Ron Paul = nutjob asshole
The first section will be waaaaay over the heads of the Paulites, however. Critical thinking isn’t their strong suit.
Thanks. I just don’t get the theory that you can condense and concentrate the pros in Ron Paul and ignore the cons and somehow make a “progressive”. I don’t think that word means what they think it means…
Excellent analogy and presentation. Recommended.
Hey Kelly. Thanks. I decided that the Ron Paul comments going off the rails around here needed to be addressed cogently. I hope I was successful.
Thanks, Margaret, seeing Paul as a whole is helpful, and I only wish the same principals could have been applied to Oilmen first and foremost Bush and Cheney. The sane things their handlers teach them to say are barely a gloss on the surface. Or a slick.
principals = principles
Thank you Ruth. Yep, spot on. The GOP perfected that lipstick on a pig thing and the
DemoVichycrats adopted it. Ron Paul isn’t the answer though as you and I can agree.I’m starting to think Margaret is in love with Ron Paul.
I agree Ron is a nutjob asshole. But so is Obama. Therefore, the question becomes: “Which nutjob asshole shall I vote for?” I will vote for the nutjob asshole who will stop the unnecessary slaughter of human beings in the name of Democrats and their frightenened progressive funders.
LMAO! If THAT’S what you’re getting, then it’s not surprising that you support Paul. But thanks for stopping by!
I’m not going to ignore the carbon and most of the hydrogen that is in a Ron Paul molecule and agree with the idea that those good things in him can be separated from the overall bigoted, supply side, misogynistic asshole that the guy really is.
Ron is like poison but he wraps the poison in a chocolate cake that Lefties really really want to eat.
But like Margaret suggests Gas and Water might be only a few atoms apart chemically but a few atoms difference is an explosive world of difference.
I like Ron’s no more wars ideas but at what price will I eat the chocolate?
Do I want to eat the poison that is in the chocolate as Ron regulates the FDA?
just how many food recalls were done this year alone if anything we need more government regulation.
Do I want an America where merchants can deny me service based on my skin color? ( Ron’s son Rand said that but so far the Father has not disagreed).
Do I want an America with Gay’s losing their rights? Women can’t get abortions?
Ron Paul by freeing corporations of regulation frees corporations from laws that protect US!
In a truly Randian society its suppose to be all about Me all about greed and my personal interest not about corporations being free to do as they like.
I choose neither and suggesting that it must be a choice between Obama or Paul or, (insert eventual Republican nominee here), is dishonest and specious.
Edit: And Obama is never mentioned once in this post.
A cogent and rational analysis. Thank you. :)
Okay, the more realistic choice is “Obama the nutjob asshole vs. Obamney the nutjob asshole.” Why not send a punishing message to the Democratic leadership by voting for their clone Romney?
Now you’re assuming that I’ll be voting for Willard. Again wrong. There are other options. Stop being duplicitous or learn to think in more than two dimensions. If you had been paying attention prior to 2010, you would have known that I came out strongly against the punishing the Dems by voting for Republicans crowd. Drop the false dichotomy. Only conservatives think in such stark terms. It doesn’t have to be choice a vs choice b. The irony is that you’re behaving far more reflexively than you’re even suggesting that I am.
In a truly Randian society its suppose to be all about personal interest, greed doing whats best for the individual. Letting corporations be free of government rules to protect the 99% from pollution. Letting corporations be free to outsource jobs, lay people off, pay workers whatever they want no minimum wage, overtime benefits or the boss will move your job to China as the Bush/Obama years have shown is what happens when Ron’s ideas are enacted in the real world actually hurts the 99%.
Rand and Ron claim to represent small businessmen, artists free thinkers then they link big Corporations places notorious for killing new ideas ie GM and the electric car ( which GM had way before Toyota had the Prius, ) (Microsoft which stopped being creative right around the time Bill Gates started looking for low cost educated immigrant workers) companies famous for crushing new ideas new companies with new products.
Basically if you are to stupid to run a business that provides workers a living wage then you are not a creative, entrepreneur businessman your a slave driving plantation owner who uses economics of scale, control of the existing market and political influence to make a buck.
You are Sam’s Club not Costco.
The message that you send to the Democrats by voting for a Republican is that you prefer Republican policies. The Democrats will then move further right to attract your vote. If the message that you want to send is a lefty one, then you must vote for or write in the name of a progressive candidate.
I thought more people understood food than chemistry. However by using chemistry as an example I think you might keep out the Ron trolls.
Also the MSM seems to be mentioning your idea Fundies won’t vote for Mitt because he is a Mormon I just thought you should know:)
Margaret, I was not assuming that you’d vote for Willard. But you need to put your cards on the table and inform the board who you support for president. “MyTwoCents” – you are incorrect. Exit polling will show that guys like me voted for Romney as a protest vote against Obama. We know that guys like me put Bush into the White House by voting for Nader in 2000. I will do it again in 2012 by voting for Paul or Obamney. It’s a done deal at this point.
Excellent diary, Margaret. I gather that Paul has a lot of young supporters and I suppose it’s due to his anti-war stance. I hope those young ones will think about the devastation he would create at home.
Just how is a new generation of small entrepreneur businessmen,artists free thinkers ever suppose to emerge in America to create innovative products in an America where workers do not have enough money to test and buy stuff to create their innovations? No overtime, no minimum wage, even high tech high education jobs as Bill Gates has shown get outsourced or immigrants with education get hired for lower wages?
In an America where big corporations can flood stores with cheaper products the second a new better product made by a new company hits the stores. Can new products even get shelf space where its already legal for Coke and Pepsi to give discounts to stores and restaurants to keep each other’s product’s out of the stores and restaurants in exchange for a cheaper price?
Just how can new innovative products ever get on store shelves in Ron’s world where there is no regulation of business?
jimbowski I’ve always respected your views and you seem to be a rational person whom I’ve never known to resort to name calling and I always like to keep debate on a civil level. Still it’s no secret around here that I can get passionate and even wound up so I’m not perfect. That being said, I just don’t get the logic behind your support of such an extraordinarily loathsome person. We’ve all heard that two wrongs don’t make a right. Why is replacing Obamanazi with Paulnazi anything but a violation of that old axiom? If it’s REALLY a message you want to send, why vote for any Nazi? Seriously, why?
jimbowski
Who says anybody has to tell you who they’re going to support?
Exit polling will show you voted for Romney, nothing more, nothing less.
Good work, Margaret.
Of course, I never quite got how the chemistry worked for Ron at all, but some people like to play around with gas and matches, and stuff like that. So, yeah, I guess there is that.
But ..but… but lower prices means bigger profits which means more expansion and that means more jobs which drive up wages.
At nearly $58, Costco trades for 22 times fiscal 2007 projected earnings of $2.58 a share. It has one of the highest price-earnings ratios among major retailers. Target (TGT, news, msgs) shares, at nearly $63, trade for 17 times estimated 2007 earnings, while Wal-Mart, at $48, commands 15 times projected 2007 profits.
http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/Extra/CostcoTheAntiWalMart.aspx
GJF investigators documented 244 Wal-Mart subsidy deals with a total value of $1.008 billion. Taxpayer dollars have helped individual stores and distribution centers with everything from free or cut-price land to general grants. One example: in Sharon Springs, N.Y., a distribution center made a deal with an industrial development agency for the agency to hold the legal title to the facility so the corporation could evade property taxes. Good Jobs First estimates that Wal-Mart will save about $46 million over the life of this one agreement.
In 2001, Wal-Mart workers paid 42% of the total cost of the company’s health plan. In contrast, the typical large business expects employees to pay only 16% of the total cost for individual coverage, or 25% for family coverage. At discount retailer Costco, which competes directly with Wal-Mart’s Sam’s Club stores, employees pay less than 10%; as a result, 82% of them are covered through the company.
The Democratic staff of the House Committee on Education and the Workforce estimated the breakdown of costs for one 200-employee Wal-Mart store:
* $36,000 a year for free or reduced school lunches, assuming that 50 families of employees qualify.
* $42,000 a year for Section 8 rental assistance, assuming that 3% of the store employees qualify.
* $125,000 a year for federal tax credits and deductions for low-income families, assuming that 50 employees are heads of households with a child, and 50 employees are married with two children.
* $108,000 a year for the additional federal contribution to state children’s health insurance programs, assuming
that 30 employees with an average of two children qualify.
* $100,000 a year for additional Title I expenses, assuming 50 families with two children qualify.
* $9,750 a year for the additional costs of low-income energy assistance.
Overall, the committee estimates that one 200-person Wal-Mart store may result in an excess cost of $420,750 a year for federal taxpayers.
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Corporate_Welfare/WalMart_Welfare.html
I wonder if Ron has ever realized that we the tax payers pay for Ron’s anti worker *cough * business success stories that make tons of money off of low paid employees.
It seems to me that in America we have reached the point where labor is so cheap thanks to lower wages that Wallmart
I would also remind jimbowski that elections in this country are conducted by secret ballot. You have no right to demand to know who I will eventually support but I’ve made it no secret to those paying any attention at all: I plan on supporting the Green Candidate if s/he looks like somebody I can support and go from there. If not the Greens, then I’ll look elsewhere. If, in the end I can’t find any presidential candidate that I can support, I’ll write a name in and in that case I think I will exercise my right to keep my ballot secret.
Agreed Poison is poison eating a lot or a little you still wind up dead. Its better not to eat any poison and demand real food.
Recommended, tweeted, liked. Thanks Margaret, and for one more chance to link to this, for all the Paul “true believers” out there.
The man is every bit as duplicitous any politician we’ve ever seen, and this bullshit notion that he will even get the CHANCE to call Obama out regarding war is just that – bullshit. His racist tendencies and discriminatory legislative proposals are so legion – and so on-the-record – that the topic will never shift from them, and Obama will win in a landslide.
The best thing for real alternative building in this election cycle is an O/Willard (i.e., corporatist v. corporatist) matchup, so that the other options – Occupying the Election, assembling a coalition ticket based on ALL the issues, not personalities or lesser-evilism, etc. – can come to the fore.
Interesting related article from Glenzilla.
Progressives and the Ron Paul Fallacies
Name calling seems to be all the Ron trolls have. That and not addressing the issues of Ron’s racism, homophobia, abortion stance never mind his economic policy.
Why because debating facts would mean saying no to their desires they want to believe deregulation, lower taxes and smaller government will create jobs never mind Keynes proved in the real world experiment of the Great Depression that big government taxing the rich more and using the money to create jobs does work and will raise wages.
One can argue that America has been shifting to Ron’s view since Reagan and continued to shift that way even under Obama notice his weak new rules on regulating banks.
In the real world Ron or should I say Reagan’s idea’s have lead America to disaster and lower living standards for workers since the 70′s.
Ron is just Obama on steroids his way will be quicker poison than Obama.
I gotta go I can’t wait forever for the Ron trolls to decide to debate the issues.
Given my experience on previous threads they will just quickly deny the issues anyway and try and divert the conversation.
Happy New Year Margaret
Excellent post, Margaret. It should be also be posted on Truthout or CommonDreams,imho.
Thank you for starting 2012 with kickass critical thinking!
Back atcha Ellie! Hope you’re okay.
Glad you enjoyed it and I think more critical thinking is in order for the new year!
There was another, very ugly thing proved during the real world experiment of the Great Depression. It was proven that if countries get pushed into unemployment by their neighbors and by foreign bankers deeply enough, they are susceptible to the worst fascist and populist messages of hatred and can turn on ethnic groups and the world and start major wars in Europe. There is more than one observer, starting with Krugman, who is very worried about Hungary right now. Austerity doesn’t just cause hunger.
Spot on. Another old axiom that occurs to me is “people who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it”. We’ve had the second Great Depression, (no matter what they call it), so let’s try to avoid electing a fascist who’ll start WW III. It’s also important to remember Einstein’s own axiom in this context, “I don’t know what WW III will be fought with but WW IV will be fought with sticks and stones”. Something for everybody to keep in mind.
Thanks msmolly.
From Glenzilla:
“Whatever else one wants to say, it is indisputably true that Ron Paul is the only political figure with any sort of a national platform — certainly the only major presidential candidate in either party — who advocates policy views on issues that liberals and progressives have long flamboyantly claimed are both compelling and crucial.”
And this from Matt Stoller:
“Ron Paul’s candidacy is a mirror held up in front of the face of America’s Democratic Party and its progressive wing, and the image that is reflected is an ugly one; more to the point, it’s one they do not want to see because it so violently conflicts with their desired self-perception.”
The operative word is “ugly”.
Everything you need to know about Ron Paul is in the name he chose for his, now Senator, son.
It’s actually a quote, from Harvard Professor George Santayana, who also said, “Only the dead have seen the end of war.” Something to think about indeed.
Hmmm, I don’t believe that’s true though at least according to wikipedia:
I agree that RP would be a step backwards for our country philosophically. If you adhere to the opinion that capitalism is directly opposed to society, then libertarianism is the most extreme extension of that. Therefore, a Libertarian is even more unacceptable.
I agree with many of Paul’s stances on certain issues but for different reasons, in the same way I hate Obama but for different reasons than partisan Republicans. Paul’s means to his ends are overwhelmingly unacceptable as a way to achieve those ends thus making him unacceptable
Very successful and recommended. *G*
Thank you very, very, very much for this post Margaret.
It seems I was much in need of a reminder just like this.
Can’t thank you enough for helping clear my head on this issue. I really wish more of the shit you layed out in this post would get out there. When you hear about Paul all you hear about is the war, drugs, constitutional stances. Those are all well and good, but they just don’t make up for the awful, awful other policies.
I still say habeas corpus is the most important right of all and without it no others are worth a shit. But with this post helping me I better understand the having habeas corpus but being economic slaves isn’t any better. Without habeas corpus you’re basically owned by the government, who can disappear you any time they want. With Randian, unregulation is wonderful policies, you’re basically slaves to the 1%.
I’m not going to vote to change who my master is.
Thank you again, and Happy New Year.
Thanks OFG. Sometimes a little context is what we need to clarify something we are having trouble perceiving.
“I hope those young ones will think about the devastation he would create at home”
And I hope the folks so concerned about covering their own asses will think about the people with predator drones flying overhead. The (entirely justified) Leftist rants about the horrors and devastation of the various ongoing wars would fill a library but — you know — screw that if it means I might have to show a photo ID to vote!
“Poison is poison eating a lot or a little you still wind up dead”
Did you know that many cancer chemotherapeutic agents are poison? A poison to which the cancer is more susceptible than the patient: patient gets sick, cancer dies, patient recovers.
Sorry, forgot to ask: are you offering “real food”?
“issues that liberals and progressives have long flamboyantly claimed are both compelling and crucial.”
Until now. Suddenly wars, assassinations, indefinite detentions, warrentless wiretapping, and torture are minor issues. Let’s concentrate on what’s really important: a second hand report from a biased source that he once refused to shake a gay man’s hand (despite voting for DADT’s repeal and twice against the Federal Marriage Amendment).
“I heard him speak against all corporate regulations,”
Glad you got to hear it, how about posting a quote so the rest of us can hear it as well? Please note the emphasis, which is yours, not mine.
“the Green Candidate”
Who is that, anyway? I’d like to check s/he out. As registered Independent I can vote for whomever I like.
“Name calling seems to be all the Ron trolls have”
LOL! Irony Meter Rating: 6.5
Thanks Margaret, Great post, recommended
Well, that’s the party line on the left. It’s not really a stretch in the slightest.
There’s nothing above couldn’t be said about Obama in much the same method.
Line up the positives and negatives.
How far up the list is illegal war, UN-Constitutional acts from the highest office in the land, and impunity for the MIC 1% political classes? Pretty high on my list. What’s more important? Jobs, maybe? Where’s Obama on jobs?
Not an advocate for Ron Paul, just think this is a weak argument.
And I think the “either Obama or Paul” argument is simplistic to the point of being specious. That’s not the reality.
This is an excellent essay.
It should have been front-paged hours ago.
Lol. Do you realize that in your very first sentence, you decry name calling while at the same time name calling? FDL is not that big a community. Anybody who has watched the Ron Paul threads knows that more than half of the name calling has been done by Margaret. In each and every thread she has screamed racist from the top of her lungs. The Ron Paul debate on FDL has been poisoned from the get go largely by Margaret. So while Cenk and Greenwald have faced the issues, FDL has embarassed itself by allowing 120db screeching of Margaret. But that’s what “spoilers” are supposed to do aren’t they? Yeah I am questioning motives? Get used to it. There are trolls here, but they aren’t the Ron Paul supporters. Call names, you get called names back. Now quit your fucking crying and face up to Obama’s WAR CRIMES AND FACISM AND LOVE OF WALL STREET. FACE IT! You compare new wars to twenty year old newsletters that have been rejected? WHO ARE THE FUCKING TROLLS? TELL US? WHO ARE THE TROLLS? Who poisons debate so progressives will get turned off from fighting EVIL? BS. Read your Greenwald. Or is he a troll to?
Haven’t read comments yet, but of course, my first thot was this Bowie.
Likely others beat me to it.
Bless ya Maggie, thanks.
Gasoline.
Republican presidential candidate Rep. Ron Paul (R-Texas) stuck to his libertarian principles on Sunday, criticizing the historic Civil Rights Act of 1964 because it “undermine[d] the concept of liberty” and “destroyed the principle of private property and private choices.”
“If you try to improve relationships by forcing and telling people what they can’t do, and you ignore and undermine the principles of liberty, then the government can come into our bedrooms,”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/01/ron-paul-civil-rights-act_n_1178688.html
The Civil Rights Act of 1964 (Pub.L. 88-352, 78 Stat. 241, enacted July 2, 1964) was a landmark piece of legislation in the United States[1] that outlawed major forms of discrimination against African Americans and women, including racial segregation. It ended unequal application of voter registration requirements and racial segregation in schools, at the workplace and by facilities that served the general public (“public accommodations”).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1964
“undermine[d] the concept of liberty” and “destroyed the principle of private property and private choices.”
Ron your liberty ends where mine begins I have Rights under the Constitution the same as you Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness ( ok the Declaration of Independence ).
I am glad I went to the same schools as whites the education was better Separate and Unequal is how schools in the inner city are funded compared to the burbs I grew up in.
If you have private property refusing to serve me at a restaurant hurts my Liberty to eat and if your a good cook my Pursuit of Happiness Ron if you refuse to see me as a patient Doctor Ron Paul I die.
I really don’t see a huge voter demand out there for what Ron is saying am I wrong? Why go full racist now?
Lots of trolls on the myFDL diaries today defending Ron are going to clutch their pearls.
Now quit your fucking crying and face up to Obama’s WAR CRIMES AND FACISM AND LOVE OF WALL STREET. FACE IT! You compare new wars to twenty year old newsletters that have been rejected? WHO ARE THE FUCKING TROLLS? TELL US? WHO ARE THE TROLLS? Who poisons debate so progressives will get turned off from fighting EVIL? BS. Read your Greenwald. Or is he a troll to?
Dude Chill first of all I have been doing almost as much as Margaret give Cred where its due:) Second google Firedoglake ThingsComeUndone and third party I am sure you will see plenty of results any regular here can say or you can google it that I have gone after Obama for everything you say and much more.
Now quit your fucking crying hysterical little dude Me and Margaret and others present facts which so far have not been refuted.
The pro Palestine people did manage to change minds at FDL about Israel maybe you guys should take notes.
Leen, Bluebutterfly,ET, Cttule presented many diaries took much abuse in the comments most of it exactly what you Paulites have been doing and held their ground with facts.
Maybe I should do a diary how to lose friends and lose a debate on the Lefty blogs and use this comment as an example?
Great diary Margaret. Thank you.
I know that I can’t vote for President Zero, he is as bad as Romney.
Paul is a definite improvement over Obama, who at least does have some nice stances on war, drugs, and constitutional issues. The sticking points are Paul’s stances on corporate-deregulation and taxes.
The Green Party comes much closer to my personal views than Paul. Unfortunately the Green Party is not 100% perfect either.
My only 100% perfect solution is: Warp9 as God-Emperor of Earth, I just haven’t yet worked out how to make that feasible yet.
So the real question is: how close to perfect do I demand a candidate be?
Third Party or Revolution!
Thanks for the vote!
I’m not suggesting there IS a perfect candidate out there or even that we should look for one. I’m saying that no amount of lipstick, no amount of ignoring of the salient facts, no amount of defense of his bigotry, homophobia and misogyny, no amount of calling other people names is going to make Ron Paul a Progressive. Ever.
If we are not demanding perfection, then it seems to me that we are therefore going to be willing to ignore some kinds of imperfection.
So, to rephrase my question above: how much imperfection are we willing to ignore in a candidate?
And wadka + ethanol = Kick-ass monster hangover-chaser (please refer to news re: Exxon-Mobil arbitration award re: Venezuela; never mind Iran, Nigerian/Russian-based oil spills, etc).
“Take me back — carry me back
Down to Gasoline Alley where I started from…”
May this year’s end = no regrets that it ever began.
Uh, hello? Still waiting for that quote…
I honest-to-God hope Third Party will be a viable alternative soon (the sooner, the better), but meanwhile if I want “real food” I guess I’d better send out for pizza.
“Revolution”? Well, you know the song: “we’d all love to see the plan.”
“Me and Margaret and others present facts which so far have not been
refutedsubstantiated.”Fixed it for you: no charge.