If you toddle along to Ynet the Israeli news site in English you’ll find a report of the drone that successfully penetrated Israeli air space for nearly half an hour the kicker, and to the Israelis it’s one hell of a kicker is this paragraph:
Meanwhile, defense officials estimate that the drone started its mission in Lebanon, most likely to gather intelligence and check the IDF’s reaction. It is possible it was headed to the Dimona reactor.
Operating a drone by remote control from such a long distance requires advanced capabilities, which Israel was not aware Hezbollah had acquired.
Source: Lebanese TV channel: Hezbollah behind drone mission – Israel News, Ynetnews.
Don’t you just love the pathos bathos of that second sentence? I do, I’ve been laughing uproariously since I read it. Karma as Ctuttle is fond of remarking is a bitch and so is payback. It’s a little known fact that the Hizb successfully used drones to penetrate Israeli airspace during the last Israeli war of aggression and occupation against Lebanon. Let me spell it out for you. In 2006 during what in Lebanon is called the “July War” the Hizb successfully used drones against the Israelis not just in Lebanese airpsace but in Israeli airspace. You can be very certain that the Hizb have invested a lot of time, money, and research into improving their drones ever since.
Operating a drone by remote control from such a long distance requires advanced capabilities,
Let’s explore those ‘advanced capabilities’ a little. There are other links from the Ynet story linked above but you’re well capable of following those for yourself. This link is to the original report (Arabic Language) from al-Mayadeen a news organisation who are indeed closely linked to the Hizb. What’s interesting is that the drone operated first deep in Israeli controlled airspace and then deep in Israeli airspace proper for nearly half an hour before being detected. The Israelis had to scramble not one but two F16s to intercept and destroy the drone. Furthermore the vaunted Israeli radar systems were of no help in guiding the Israeli warcraft to their target.
Al-Mayadeen quotes an IDF spokesman in saying that the IDF has instituted an enquiry into why their radar systems failed in their task.
Drones, as Ian Welsh remarks, are not weapons of the powerful and Ian is perfectly correct in this (go read Ian’s posting it’s very short). But a weapon doesn’t have to powerful, or to be wielded by the powerful, to be very effective. Americans and their front-men in Israel tend to want the latest, shiniest, most expensive weapon available, while ignoring the price-performance ratio of those weapons. It’s one of the reasons why America and Israel have both been losing their wars lately. Lots and lots of very expensive and sophisticated weaponry systems wielded by soldiers who are very good at targeting civilians but aren’t very good at, you know, actually fighting, isn’t a war-winning formula.
The Hizb on the other hand are very good at fighting and they wield weapons that are as sophisticated and as deadly as they have to be. The Hizb believe passionately in getting the best price-performance ratio possible and unlike the Americans and the Israelis the Hizb do win their wars. That’s because they’re good at fighting and they use right weapons for the job which is of killing, wounding, and terrifying enough enemy soldiers so that those soldiers run away. Ever seen the aftermath of a Hizb designed APD exploding? I have, I’ve seen them both in Lebanon and in Irak, and man that kill-box is tight. Not only is it tight but nothing and I do mean nothing survives inside it. I’ve also seen the results of what happens when American or Israeli tanks and APCs come up against Hizb designed bombs the results are impressive.
Or consider the Katyusha. I’ve lost count of the number of times that in conversation with me Israeli officers sneeringly referred to the “cheap and inaccurate” Katyusha rockets possessed by the Hizb. Except that the Katyusha isn’t inaccurate it’s as accurate as it needs to be and its designed to be fired in large numbers. Which is exactly how the Hizb used them in 2006 to the Israelis horrified (and surprised) dismay. They’ll use them the same way – as an area denial weapon on Israeli soil against Israelis, in the next war that Israel launches.
An effective weapon is a weapon that is as accurate, as deadly, as easy to use, and as easy to maintain, as it needs to be. And when an effective weapon is in the hands of an effective soldier. That is to say it’s in the hands of a soldier who is, you know, very good at actually fighting then it’s a very deadly weapon indeed. Which leads me back to this drone. An educated guess is that it was indeed launched and piloted from Lebanon. That it was unarmed and that it was on a training flight. I doubt that the Hizb are dancing with joy that it’s been shot down but I’ll bet they’re very pleased indeed that they were able to guide it first through Israeli controlled airspace and then through Israeli airspace. I’ll bet that they’re absolutely delighted at how effective they were at nullifying Israeli air-defense systems, and if I were them I’d be delighted at how long it took not one but two F16s to find it and shoot it down. How much do you want to bet that the Hizb have a lot of drones?
Nasrallah promised that during the next war Israel launched that the Hizb would conduct operations inside Israel itself I think we’ve seen just one tiny part of what he was talking about when he made that promise, and Nasrallah has a habit of making his promises come true.
which Israel was not aware Hezbollah had acquired
SURPRISE!
Surprise: A surprise is an event, think of it as an incapacitating mental bomb, that you detonate in the mind of an enemy commander.
markfromireland




173 Comments

My eyebrows went up at the second part of that sentence:
Hezbollah? I thought the drone was unidentified? I smell a (US) rat.
WOW!! Hizb is really tough, man!
I don’t smell a US rat, I smell part of a very successful army’s preparations for the next war. I’m Not saying “no Margaret you’re definitely wrong” you could very well be right and I could very well be wrong but I don’t think it’s a false flag operation.
I base that on the fact that the report is from al-Mayadeen and that it confirms other reports made over the last few years that the Hizb were building on their successful use of drones in 2006. This inclines me to believe that it was a Hizb drone. That it originated in Lebanon, and that it was shot down over Israel quite some time after it successfully penetrated Israeli air space.
mfi
They’re sufficiently tough to have comprehensively defeated the Israelis every time they’ve taken them on. That’s as tough as they need to be.
mfi
It would make sense that it was a US drone, painted and operated by Israel to implicate Hexbollah and by extension, Iran in preparation for the next war. That’s the first thing that came into m mind. Just a theory though.
I don’t see the Hizb going along with that ‘though, the story in al-Mayadeen which is very close to the Hizb would be rather different. It would be headlines trumpeting about Zionist lies and provocations.
I’m just not impressed by Israeli air defenses the record is poor during the July War they were really ineffective. – I can’t remember off-hand whether it was one minute or two before the rockets landed that the warning sirens sounded in Haifa, not impressive.
mfi
Why would Hizb have to go along with it? Israel makes incursions into Lebanon all the time.
Fascinating. I know we’ve had our differences before, MFI, but this is a very nice analytical piece from someone who obviously knows what he is talking about due to his own experience.
Thank you.
So, Hezbollah has drones which can be armed that can literally fly under Israeli radar. The Israelis aren’t stupid. Even if they invent a successful countermeasure, the writing is on the wall, as they say.
The Israelis need to cut a permanent deal with their Palestinian Arab neighbors in order to survive. The sooner the better, I would think.
They don’t have to go along with it that’s the point I’m making. If it were a US drone “painted and operated by Israel to implicate Hexbollah and by extension, Iran in preparation for the next war” then the Hizb would be trumpeting “Zionist warmongering deception” from the rooftops. They’re not. Instead they’re printing stories in al-Mayadeen gleefully reporting on Israeli consternation.
mfi
true
Yeah, I suppose that’s true but would we hear about it?
It won’t happen as long as Bibi and his ilk are in charge and I don’t see them being tossed out anytime soon.
Hmmph. You’re probably right. For now. There IS labor unrest in Israel, though. The Jewish Israeli working class type has far more in common with his Arab working class counterpart than he does with Netan-Yahoo, though.
As I said, the Israelis aren’t stupid. They are many things, but seldom that. Which means they aren’t suicidal. That description applies to their military as much as it does to their civilian population, which always overlaps to an extent.
It is foolish to underestimate the Israeli people. I think you are doing just that.
I was unaware of that. Got a link? Never mind, I’ll employ teh google. It must be good for something. :)
P.S. I don’t think I underestimate the Israelis and I have called Netanyahu many things but “stupid” wasn’t among them.
Anyone who can read the Lebanese Arabic press would, yes. :-). I started my career as a peacekeeper (Felix) in Lebanon more than 30 years ago now. I’ve a lot of friends and contacts there whom I trust, trust that’s built up over the years. I often don’t like what the Hizb have to say but they do have a long record of honest talking and honest dealing. To my knowledge they’ve never lied to me. A reputation for honesty and truthfulness can be a very powerful political weapon especially in the Middle East where political honesty and truthfulness are … rare. In this case my opinion is that the facts are on their side. I could be wrong, goodness knows I’ve been wrong before and doubtless will be again. This time however I don’t think so. As I said above I doubt they’re pleased it got shot down but I bet they’re thrilled skinny that they managed to get it south of Hebron. If you take a look at a map of Israel Hebron is about 30 Km south of Jerusalem. 30 km South of Jerusalem from Lebanon that’s pretty good.
What follows next is speculation but it’s based on my experience of them. The Hizb are very very good at what they do. My guess is that it was carrying an inert explosive payload equivalent in weight to whatever explosive missile the Hizb have decided to fire at targets inside Israel. I think that’s why the bits are scattered over so wide an area, I think that’s why the Israelis are having to devote what sounds to be a fair bit of effort to finding and collecting up the bits. (I’d find that thought very upsetting if I was Israeli).
mfi
No doubt. Kinda lets me out though! I bow to your superior knowledge. Personally, I’ve been sort of fuming since the Bush administration demanded “fair elections” and then got pissed off and started issuing sanctions when the crowd they wanted in didn’t win a majority.
Should be noted that I’m talking about the election of Hizb in the Palestinian lands. Dunno the structure of politics in Lebanon at all. Now I think I’ll stop making myself looking silly at this point.
It’s more a question of intended audience Margaret. If they didn’t want it known they wouldn’t have allowed al-Mayadeen to print it. How I read that is that now that the cat is out of the bag the Hizb want the Lebanese to know that they have this capacity. They pay a lot of attention to Lebanese public opinion, it’s why they’re so successful politically. They even (especially) pay attention to public opinion among those parts of the Lebanese population hostile to them about other matters but for them when it comes to being the only effective defense Lebanon has against their aggressive Zionist neighbours.
No argument from me about the Bush administration “fair elections” thuggery. I haven’t forgotten Condoleeza Rice and her barbaric remark about “the birth pangs of a new Middle East”. Far more importantly nobody in Lebanon has forgotten (or forgiven) it either.
mfi
Hizballah are exclusively Lebanese. There are close (very close) links to for example the Sadrists. To give one example it’s no secret that Mohammed Ibn Laith went to Lebanon to be trained by them before he took up his command, but they’re exclusively a Lebanese outfit.
mfi
Edited above to clarify example. Further example below:
Ali Musa Duqduq is a senior Hizb commander who was arrested by the Americans for commanding the very daring and successful raid on the American base in Karbala in January 2007. The Iraki courts found him not guilty not once but twice. Irak demanded the Americans hand him over to Iraki custody when the Americans left Irak and refused to extradite him to the Americans. The Americans aren’t at all pleased about this. They’re even less pleased that the courts found him not guilty (Iraki courts will NOT convict anyone who attacked Americans because under Iraki law attacking American occupation forces is not a crime.) The courts decided they had to find him guilty of something so they convicted him of overstaying his visa. According to one of our team members who was in court for the case the judge described the conviction as a “consolation prize” to the lawyer representing the US embassy.
mfi
Doesn’t Israel have installations for detection along its borders much like our DEW lines? I’m very surprised by the drone being able to penetrate Israel to that distance. Whoops!
Radar is only effective at the altitude at which the radar beams are broadcast. Radar signals are reflected back from aircraft which are flying ABOVE the altitude from which they are transmitted. It’s very line of sight. If you fly underneath it, you’re not picked up.
There are other factors, of course. Like the reflectivity or size of the target. Not to mention rapid course changes that can throw radar-tracking off.
Yes, Israel DOES have installations for detection along its borders which is one of the very best in the world. The point is, it’s not good enough. Ain’t American technology wonderful?
Like all technology, it’s amoral.
I’m not surprised Twain. A good drone pilot would be able to fly it below the height at which the radar operates. (Hence the expression “flying under the radar”). The Hizb successfully flew drones against the Israelis 6 years ago I think we can take it they’ve been practicing since then. There are other difficulties for radar detection systems such as the hardness of the target, deflection and absorbtion technologies and the ability of a good pilot to jink his craft making its course hard to predict.
The Israelis have a good radar system – some say it’s the best in the world. But the best just isn’t good enough. I doubt it ever will be.
The key point here is that this was one drone. If one drone can do this you can be sure it’s not lost on the Hizb that a lot of drones could quite simply overwhelm the Israeli radar system rendering it utterly useless.
Drones are cheap and the Hizb have a lot of money they can afford a lot of drones. The problem would be training enough drone pilots – but they’ve had at least six years to do that.
mfi
See also Ohio Barbarian @ 21.
mfi
I guess Iran really did capture an American drone if Hezbollah their friend now has a long range drone that seems to have stealth capability. I wonder just how many research dollars did America save Iran by letting their drone get captured. I am sure Iran made a lot of money letting Russian, Chinese, North Korean etc scientists look at the drone.
The Spartans avoided war because they knew they had the best war tactics but when later generations wanted power they engaged in lots of war and as I recall the Thebans copied then surpassed them.
I wonder just how much of the drones stealth tech can be transferred to Iranian airplanes and how soon.
It is good of you to get into the cost effectiveness of weapons. This post shows the danger of not considering the cost effectiveness if our weapons are captured and turned against ourselves and our friends.
Imagine if the plane carrying the atom bomb to Japan was shot down but the bomb was still intact.
Thats the worse case scenario. This while not that bad is bad enough.
I wonder if Iran in an attempt to win friends will share information from its drones with Iraq and Afghan rebels?
I’ve been digging through the links and not been able to find out how big a drone this was. There was a video that might have shown that on Ynews but it has been removed. Are we talking 40 feet? 4 feet? Hummingbird size or what? If it was a large one, then the purpose might have been, as you say, surprise, but if a small one, then training for operators and information would be more likely motive.
You really need to drop the idea that everything revolves around America and Americans.
The Hizb have been successfully flying drones against the Israelis FOR SIX YEARS. The RQ170 to which you are referring was captured in December 2011 the two other drones were captured in January 2011. That is nowhere NEAR long enough to swipe and transfer to production the new technology (if any) involved.
The Iranians have been building highly advanced and sophisticated drones for a very very long time. They’re a world leader at it. They certainly used UAVs during the closing stages of the Iran-Irak war. When I was posted to the Iran-Irak border as a UN peacekeeper following that war overflights by Iranian UAVs were a daily occurrence.
mfi
Oh, I suppose it’s possible that the Iranians capturing an American drone would help Hezbollah. I don’t think it matters all that much, though.
Military secrets are fleeting. Somebody once said something like that. Sun Tzu? Napoleon? It matters only for military history aficionados like myself.
Doesn’t make it any less true, though.
Not silly. You ask the questions and make surmises a lot of us would like to hear clarified. Thank you for the post, markfromireland.
Recommended.
Might be better at the old deterrence game than nuclear weapons, eh? I mean, I’d rather have a drone field in my back yard than a silo, much as I abhor their current use by our maniacs.
Sorry, don’t have a link off the top of my feverish head at the moment. By all means, please use The Google. There’s been some labor unrest in Israel this year, though it wasn’t exactly pyrotechnic. I’m sure you can find it. If memory serves, somebody posted about it on FDL awhile back.
This sounds weak and stupid. Drones are safe only when the communications relay is protected. Does the “Hizb” have a satellite? Won’t be long before Israel has a drone which can intercept the data link and knock out the relay.
After a certain point your average car nut starts spending thousands to get only a a few half seconds quicker car or a few more miles of top speed.
They do this because they want to be the best. Meanwhile the average car nut knows when to quit and saves his money to buy the next upgrades cheaper in a new car.
A look at the payload of smart bombs, the best American missiles vs cheaper less accurate missiles needs to be done.
There are only so many small targets that need the best targeting systems but is it cheaper just to build more missiles to destroy a small target? Never mind when going after large targets and there are much more of them the amount of explosives that many rockets, missiles, bombs can bring as opposed to one very expensive but accurate bomb can bring calls into question does the American and Israeli war colleges teach economics?
Who the hell knows? Not me and the Hizb wouldn’t tell me if I asked neither would the Israelis :-).
So WAG time:
Wingspan: ± 20 metres and under.
Height: ± 2 metres and under.
Lenght: ± 5 metres or under.
Operational ceiling – no idea. Wouldn’t need to be able to fly very high.
Range: Look at a map showing both southern Lebanon and Israel. Let’s assume that it was shot down at the limits of its range. It was shot down 30 km South of Jerusalem. Now you have a reasonable guess at the range and can also see why in the WAG figures I gave above I gave the uppermost limits. It’s reasonable to assume it was fairly small.
mfi
Ok you are saying Iran already had both long range control of their drones and stealth capability built in? This is very worrisome I wonder if Iran has been using drones
to spy on the American fleet in the Persian Gulf? Drone boats with sonar could blanket the gulf cheaper than manned Iranian ships could and send radio signals to guide Iranian planes dropping depth charges on our subs.
Ha ha ha.
Do the “Hizb”?
Aloha, Gor…! The CSM reported… Israel downs drone over its airspace, suspects Hezbollah
So much for all that much lauded Iron Dome radar coverage, eh…?
Thats why you save them for an all out war and mass produce them to get the maximum advantage Iran as Mark pointed out to me already had drone tech. However I am willing to bet looking at a captured drone just gave Iran a big jump for their next generation of drones.
This is why the Spartans while powerful avoided war for many years secrets get out.
When people fight you they learn your tactics and how to counter them. We are pissing away our military advantage as well as spending money on high tech toys that take years and millions to create but then we hand these weapons to other countries.
I wonder how much the Iraq’s and Afghans have learned from watching our tactics over the last decade?
I think they got a A in the course.
Do the Hizb have a satellite? No. They don’t need one either.
That worked really well for them the last time. It worked so well that a fairly hefty part of their northern territory was littered with mines during and after the July war. There are still parts of Israel that are off limits to civilians because they’re pretty sure they didn’t manage to clear all the mines and that was with the Hizb using older and less reliable technology.
A lot of drones will overwhelm any defensive measures the Israelis can come up with for the same reason a lot of Katyusha missiles will overwhelm any defensive measures the Israelis can come up with . They’re cheap as accurate as they need to be and the Hizb who are assuredly not short of money can afford a lot of them.
As a side note it’s the American naval nightmare in the Persian Gulf. A missile swarm attack and look no fleet. A variant of that is the nightmare of the Gulf States – in any war against Iran waged by the Americans and or their Zionist front-men the Irans could wreck the Gulf States’ oil revenues for a very very long time. How? Easy – fire a lot of explosive missiles at their oil facilities in the first barrage, fire a lot of anti-personnel mines in the second barrage.
Result, unhappiness.
mfi
Over that small a range, a satellite isn’t necessary for the effectiveness of terror. Why do you assume that a satellite is even necessary?
The next logical question is, How old are you? Are you so young, Ludwig, that you cannot conceive of an effective technology that does not require the use of satellites? That has happened before, you know. General Giap knew better.
There need be no “relay” to knock out. All of this stuff can be done on line of sight with decades-old technology.
But no, our PTB have to be omnipotent, don’t they, in order to support your world view. They’re not, and you’re wrong.
PS John F Kennedy was assassinated by a mentally-ill lone gunman. The Warren Commission was right. Ballistics confirm this. Get over it.
Damn, dude, look at replies 41 and 42. We had to have been typing at the same time.
I would love to split a big pitcher of beer with you. But you would have to come to Ohio to accomplish that magnificent achievement, for I cannot afford to go where you are.
Hey Charles belated congratulations once again. Yeah so much for that. There’s an al-Jazeerah story as well:
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2012/10/201210616345574876.html
Somebody up above said the Israelis aren’t stupid. I disagree, they are stupid or more accurately they engaging in Tuchmanian folly and have been for a long time.
gor
Did anyone link PressTV’s piece yet?
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/10/07/265391/uav-exposes-israel-security-failure/
I won’t ever again travel to America and doubt I would be allowed enter the country. You wouldn’t survive were I am without BGs. I would have to ask my BGs whether they would be prepared to forego their right of blood price against Americans. It is by no means certain they would all agree it is certain that many of them would find the request profoundly offensive – they serve me with loyalty and courage they’re entitled to expect that I would not subject them to outrage in what is after all their country. That’s the reality of living and working in post-invasion Irak. You have no idea how hated Americans are in Irak.
mfi
Edit: That reads far more ungraciously than it’s meant. – Irak is my home and has been for a long time now. I love the place and the people, especially the people.
mfi
Hadn’t seen it. Thanks for that.
mfi
Ooooooh how on earth did I forget the American X-Band radar base on Mount Keren. Double thanks for the memory jog.
mfi
Israel was still trying to determine where the drone took off from.
The Gaza strip is far away from Lebanon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_Egypt_–_Gaza_Strip_barrier
Hamas a Sunni group rules the place the the Hizb are Shia. So lets run the scenarios Israel now has to worry about Sunni and Shia working together but because of this if Israel gets attacked by one group they can now crack down on both groups. This scenario favors Israel and who ever wins the contract to sell Israel more anti missile defense tech.
Scenario two Israel’s air anti missile air defense tech sucks and they have no idea where the drone was launched from. This could mean the drone has a longer range than anyone here thought that means their tech is advancing in ways we have not thought of yet. Lets remember Russia for example has super sonic anti ship missiles no Western country has this tech. Iran very well might have figured away to increase the range of their drones that we have not thought of yet. Maybe a small balloon made of stealth material painted like the night sky drifted across the border and once it got close to the target or it became daylight the drone separated from the balloon and took of on its on power. a second balloon carrying a radio relay could have helped boost control signal range.
This idea is cheap smart and a lot more likely than Shia trusting Sunni with their latest toy for a test run. men being men try out their toys first before they share them with friends assuming they are friends now.
Scenario three Egypt let Hamas sneak in a drone thats a given if we accept the drone came from the Gaza Strip. Egyptian Border police get paid to look the other way, were order to look the other way or look the other way because they support Gaza. Regardless Israel can’t count on Egypt to police the border. This scenario should worry Israel more than any other after all what else is being snuck across the border.
Over all I find the Israeli explanation fishy and given the holes in what they know and what they speculate on well it seems more like the panic kitchen sink excuse of a person who has no idea what really happened but should have known.
*heh* Once again, Presstv exposes how much our Western MSM are mere stenographers for Israel and/or the Western MOTU’s…! ;-)
Lots of folk are not that great on tech but if they are interested enough to ask a question we should do are best to answer. FDL is about learning besides I ask a ton of dumb questions when I don’t know a subject sure I annoy people but I do learn.
Nope – OB made a very fair comment. Ludwig is manifestly very young it shows in everything they write.
mfi
The first use of (very simple) “aerial drones” in warfare was in 1849, when the Austrians used unmanned balloons to drop bombs on Venice. The balloons had been launched from a naval vessel.
We used Ryan 147 drones over Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia and southern China throughout the Vietnam war, beginning as early as 1964. Some flew scores of missions.
The first time modern drones as we think of them were used in Lebanon was in 1982, when RQ-2 drones were launched from the Iowa class battleship USS New Jersey, to perform surveillance and artillery spotting as far inland as the Bekaa Valley and Syrian border. So, that was 30 years ago, giving factions in Lebanon a generation and a half to absorb drone lessons.
Comrade Barbarian, you speak like an expert but you have managed to miss the point (not unique for experts). Read again.
My world view? Is there a reason you need me turn on now that you’re bonding with comrade mfi?
He can be young but still no reason not to be polite thats all I’m asking.
You’re first point is irrelevant Hizballah are a Lebanese group exclusively. The day Israel signs a peace treaty with Lebanon is the day they cease operations. There are all sorts of reasons why Lebanon will be the very last country to sign such a treaty but that doesn’t invalidate they fact that as they’ve repeatedly said the day that treaty is signed is the day the Hizb cease active operations.
No it doesn’t suck. It’s at least among the best in the world and is arguably the best in the world.
Your balloon idea won’t float. Physics – weight to lift ratios.
You’re right that it’s possible there are all sorts of innovations floating around. See my point re: surprise above.
mfi
ET did you see my 49 before you wrote this? I speculate there that balloons could have extended the range of a drone. However you went a step further you showed drones were used for bombing that shows a balloon could drop a drone. Plus you show how 30 years ago Lebanon was exposed to drone tech and thats probably were they got it.
With 30 years to play with a tech Iran and Hizb in Lebanon would have had plenty of time to go their own way with the tech and extend its range add stealth capability, longer range control signals etc.
We know our tech and we might know how to counter it if Hizb and Iran however found other solutions to the same problems we had we have no idea how to counter their tech.
Yeah. You’re right. There is. It’s called paranoia. Just because I respect technical expertise in a field with which I am familiar from a source with whom I politically disagree does not mean that I agree with that source’s political views. Any more than this means that Mark from Ireland is a Socialist.
I am. He’s not. Fine. But that doesn’t mean that he doesn’t know what he is talking about on certain subjects. He clearly does. I respect that. I acknowledge that. That doesn’t mean that I am “bonding”(my, what a bourgois term THAT is) with MFI. Somehow, I don’t think he thinks he is bonding with me. The very thought is somehow repugnant to me and, I imagine, probably to him as well. I hope.
That comment of yours reeks of Stalinism, comrade. I prefer skunk.
Thanks ET for doing the research that helped my comment seem less speculation. :)
Yes, Philip, a well understood fairly mature technology. It’s part of Israeli/Western folly that they’re so arrogant. Do you remember during the July war the Israeli battleship whose captain didn’t bother to turn on his radar?
Surprise!
mfi
Balloons fascinate me too. In the late ’70s my friend Terry and I built a lot of hot air balloons with flares and fireworks attached. Some got reported as UFOs.
Drones are a fact of life. People do not need to copy our technology or Israeli technology to come up with many viable designs. As MFI observes above, Hizbollah has $$$. Here’s a list of the designs from which they might purchase many alternatives, or from which they could manufacture their own variations for their own needs. 53 nations manufacture drones. Iran alone has produced 15 designs that we know about.
Actually it reeks of dilettantism but I too prefer skunk.
mfi
Gor, b @ MOA has a disturbing new post up… Syria: False Flag Attacks To Clear A Border Zone…
I’m not sure he forgot. Stealth is as stealth does. One’s arrogance is no substitute for a real cloaking device.
Sorry Philip but I simply can’t resist asking you when we can expect the first performance of your LGM symphony? :-)
mfi
He was court martialled for it and found guilty. I do remember he was punished but can’t remember if they booted him out.
mfi
What D*ckheads…! 8-( IAF jets fly mock raids over south Lebanon after mysterious aircraft shot down over Israel…
I’ve never believed that those shots were fired by Syrian Army. The Ba’ath are guilty of many things, being suicidal ain’t one of them. I’d accept one misfire – but shots plural over a period of time. Somebody wants a casus belli.
I have to admit I’m mystified – if Syria goes down into complete civil war which is increasingly likely the overspill is going to be horrific and that includes for Turkey. Bye bye goes the “zero problem” policy for starters. Even if Syria does go down into complete civil war like Lebanon did – it won’t affect the transfer of money, guns, and other materiel from Iran to the Hizb all that much. The cost might actually go down as even extravagant bribery to local warlords would still be less than what the current Syrian government costs Tehran in subventions.
mfi
Little Green Men?
Interesting they’re reacting so strongly. Do you think that somebody just poked them hard with a stick? :-).
No point bombing Lebanon all over again if this time the Lebanese can bomb you back.
mfi
Sorry Philip I couldn’t resist. Yes little green men.
mfi
Charles you seen this?
Turkey, Iran and West Entangled in Syrian Conflict – Middle East – News – Israel National News:
Arutz Sheva is pretty close to the Israeli settler movement. Any thoughts?.
gor
The only plausible thing I can think of is that the House of Saud/Qatari/Libyan Wahabbi/Salafists have slipped the Nato/Turkish leash…! 8-(
It’s damned odd. The firing into Akçakale is coming from Tal al-Abyad. That was taken over by the Rebels a few weeks ago. so far so consistent – the FSA fire off a round or two into Turkey. But why?
How does this grab you?
The Turks reply but hit the Syrian Army positions on the outskirts of the town. That works for me. I do know that the Syrian government has now stopped all helicopter flights in the area to a depth of 6km from the border. Which would give a respectable size no fly zone I wonder if that was the object of the exercise from the FSA’s point of view.
The Turks would also benefit in that they could ensure that new waves of refugees stayed in the NFZ and out of Turkey.
Seems to be a bit closer to Mr. Ockham and his razor to me how about you?
gor
Maybe even the Qatari’s leash… Qatar urges Syrian rebels not to kill Iranian prisoners…
http://diydrones.com/profiles/blogs/balloon-launched-and-disposible-uavs
I suppose a bigger balloon could carry a bigger drone and a small explosive could shred the balloon before daylight comes and makes it easier to see.
BTW, Mark, it is very good to see you post a diary here again. Thank you.
The exact point that b had made…! Now, how will Assad respond to it, or will he tolerate the NFZ…?
Killing them would be a really bad mistake. Persians aren’t big on the forgive and forget stuff. Ask the tiny remnant that remains of Saddam era Iraki Air Force. That assassination campaign is still going on. They’ve pretty much wiped out all the officers and are now working their way through the sergeants and corporals.
mfi
I’ll certainly second that (e)motion…! 8-)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockoon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loki_(rocket)
I wonder just how big the drone Israel shot down was?
You’re welcome Philip but this is pretty much a one-off. This drone is a game changer so the other “guides” suggested I translate and post my article here. We post almost exclusively in Arabic over at “guides” now (and I’m not sure how long the blog will continue). However you’re always more than welcome to visit my other site and listen to some of the music I write about :-). Somebody whose opinion I value wrote to me recently saying that things like the music we both love are part of the rewards of civilisation. I agree with that and suspect you do too.
mfi
See my WAG at 35 for a possible answer.
Those are maxima.
mfi
Thanks but even if I knew the materials the drone was made from I don’t know enough to even estimate the drones weight.
Me neither , and I refuse to guess as I’d be so far out of my zone of expertise that any guess I made wouldn’t even be a WAG. Try googling or hunting through wiki. What intrests me far more is the payload. How much bang per buck per kilometre. An unpleasant but interesting question that I suspect is much on Israeli military minds at present.
mfi
Agreed payload how much can the drone carry and what was it carrying would be real interesting to know.
Very interesting post and thread mfi. Scary stuff.
We don’t yet know if this was a remote controlled drone, or a fire and forget GPS controlled, preprogramed ipad equipped drone, much like our cruise missiles. May never know.
I limited understanding is that real time video quality, sensors and weapons control data volume are the range limiting drivers for remote controlled vehicles needing retransmitted extended requirements. Those extensions can be placed at higher altitude along the drones intended path using existing cell phone network data linkages.
But a basic drone doesn’t need such elaborate configuration. Iphones have downloadable software for control of your toy devices; helicopters, planes, quadrocopters etc. Kamikaze iphones are on the terrorist drawing boards.
Bottom line, smart phones can control an inexpensive black and white camera equipped drone. A line of cell phones can call and take turns / handing off control, or a self guided GPS drone handed off to the cell phone equipped software for final targeting.
Secret Service, I would imagine is pulling their hair planning for cell net control of the president’s locations. And so it goes.
There are plenty of off the shelf RC airplanes that can carry a pound of C4 explosive. Flown through a window, it could take out a fair sized room. Launch distance of a couple miles is easy.
There is a smaller one that flies in excess of 120 mph; it would be hard to shoot down without sophisticated air defense.
From RT… Video: IDF downs drone that entered Israel airspace…
That many pieces may take awhile to put back together.
*heh* That’s a whole bunch of itty-bitty little pieces…! ;-)
You wouldn’t necessarily need to have a lot of drone pilots. Have 10 decoy drones flying a preprogrammed course autonomously with no data link for every remotely piloted drone en masse and the defense system has no way of distinguishing between them. Overwhelm the system with numbers.
Ah, the bright shiny war toys that military men and the politicians that sponsor them (and the war profiteers that sponsor them both) love so much. They will be the death of us, just as they were of the USSR.
It’s not as if we haven’t been warned. Retired Marine General Paul Van Riper, who is known to be openly contemptuous of the bright-shiny-war-toy agenda that drives the rest of the Pentagon brass (and more importantly, the congressmen and Senators whose states have factories cranking out these bright shiny war toys as very expensive public works projects), showed in the Millennium Challenge exercises a decade ago that a few dozen fishing boats loaded with explosives could take out two-thirds of the US fleet — those big expensive and highly vulnerable carriers of which the Pentagon’s so proud. (There’s an old saying among USN sub commanders: “There are two types of vessels in the US Navy: Subs, and targets.” That’s true now more than ever.) But the bright-shiny-war-toy crowd refused to acknowledge what he’d done — they “refloated” the sunk ships and soon General Van Riper found out his subordinates in the exercise were ignoring his commands, so he quit in disgust.
The irony here is that, just as the Israelis grew up with legends of plucky Israelis fighting off tremendously strong foes, and the Americans spent their junior high school history classes learning about how underfed American sharpshooters hiding in the woods took great pride in picking off British redcoats who marched in straight lines (the key is if at all possible to start from the back and work forward, like in turkey hunting), they are now as far from that sort of mindset as Jamie Dimon’s is from Fiorello La Guardia’s.
Speaking of those Bright and Shiny War Toys, having been on the ground floor of the Patriot System (Scud Busters) and the various ADA ‘radars’, like THAADS(X Band), etc…! They’re all extremely expensive,’Hunks of Junk’…! 8-(
“Won’t be long before Israel has a drone which can intercept the data link and knock out the relay.”
It’s not that simple. How to find the relevant signal(s)and distinguish them from a near infinite number of possible frequencies, all crowded with noise and probably a lot of easily produced fake datastreams? Mount transmitters on autonomous preprogrammed decoys transmitting simulated datalinks across the EM spectrum. You can’t jam and disrupt everything at once without shutting down your own OTA communications links.
Mahalo, FDL for frontpaging this most excellent post…! *g*
here, here for learning at FDL!!!
I believe it’s a false-flag humbug .No one with good sense believes Iran poses any threat to Israel ,which presupposes suicidal tendencies and low-grade moronism to supply others with their nuke deterrence Iran has exhibited neither trait .
Many on the left ,including Israelis ,believe the US and Likud are going after Iran and Syria to isolate Hezbollah from its support system so Israel can seize the water access in Southern Lebanon .Don’t underestimate the value of water everywhere ,and definitely not in the Middle East..
Moreover ,we witnessed how overwhelmed the Iranians were when they snagged one of our hi-tech drones,so are we to believe Hezbollah is making drones in a quasi-meth lab on a SUV trailer ? Please .
What goes around, comes around.
Kharma, or rather, Blowback is a B*tch…! 8-(
Very eye opening, post and discussion.
good read. mahalo! mfi and commenters.
peas!
That was my thought: why would Hizb even have to know about it? Are we pre-clearing with them now?
That would be one, very effective, way of doing it I agree.
mfi
1. Your first paragraph consists of one red herring after the other.
2. Stop trying to teach your granny to suck eggs – I’ve been writing about the strategic importance of water in the middle east for decades and spare me please the infantile “analysis” of the Israeli left.
3. The Iranians made a lot of political capital out of their capture of the drones. Drones plural they captured three. You can’t even be bothered to get that much right and you then expect me and everyone else reading this to take your half-assed factually incorrect sneers seriously? Get a grip.
mfi
All of that is true but both of you are missing the important point that you don’t need all of that. If there’s one thing we should learn from Hizballah’s record of one success after the other it’s that they keep things as simple as possible. The Israelis and the Americans like to over-engineer things. The Hizb don’t.
mfi
The problem with radar is that it has a height limitation or rather a particular height below witch it becomes unusable. It begins to detect trees and buildings and such. Keep below that and you are good to go.
…The Israelis and the Americans like to over-engineer things…
Look at MRAPs as a textbook example, Gor…! Wtf good are they in steep terrain or other similar conditions…? 8-(
Yup. This is where the slower aircraft have an advantage, especially if it has the ability to glide with engines cut off so as to make a silent passage over key areas.
I keep thinking of what the Soviet Union’s female pilots in World War II accomplished with beat-up old planes that the male pilots wouldn’t touch. The women pilots used them for unbelievably daring night missions, with such success that the Germans called them the “Night Witches” (Nachthexen).
I should add the fanciful notion that Peace truly is the cheapest means around…! But, silly old naïve, moi…! ;-)
Sun Tzu would agree with you.
I’m amazed that Van Riper hasn’t popped his clogs in sheer exasperation.
Yup, keep it simple, and you’re right it’s not as if you haven’t been warned. There are two problems – insurmountable ones for America and Israel*.
The first is cultural arrogance. Americans and Israelis are convinced that they’re:
1) The good guys.
2) The chosen race.
And hold their enemies in contempt. It’s the source of the barbaric and utterly counter-productive way in which their soldiers behave. And it’s not a bug it’s a feature. (They treat their allies with contempt too but that’s a discussion for another day).
The second problem is that the nature of their military has changed.
Americans famously never send in soldiers where they can send in a shell instead this is also true of the IDF. It used not to be true of the IDF but that was back in the days when they won their wars. As the fusion between American and Israel militaries becomes more pronounced the Israelis have adopted American tactics and become even more casualty averse than the Americans. The Hizb on the other hand aren’t casualty averse. They do their best to avoid casualties but if they have to spend the lives of their men then they do it.
As the fusion between America and Israel deepens the Israelis have taken on the intellectual rigidity of their American brethren and have paid the price of one lost war in Lebanon after the other.
A further problem again insurmountable from what I can see is that there’s no longer any meaningful difference between the US military and the American managerial class. YOu can see it in the syllabi of the various military academies which now turn out the military equivalent of MBAs by the bright shiny and incompetent bucketload.
That’s good news for America’s enemies such as the Hizb but very bad news for American soldiers and their families.
mfi
* Like most people in the region I don’t differentiate between Americans and Israelis. Other than at the margins they’re one and the same.
RADAR also has to have a threshold or it would be scrambling jets for every vulture, hawk, or eagle in the area.
If you make your plane out of high tech balsa wood, paper, or fiberglass it won’t reflect a lot of radio waves.
Yup.
mfi
Ah charles but then you have the disadvantage of having been being a military professional. So of course you would say that wouldn’t you.
mfi
So would anyone with a shred of sense or decency.
mfi
They’re very good at siphoning money from working and middle class Americans to large corporations and the American upper and managerial classes. The rest is just details.
mfi
Double Yup.
mfi
It’s an even bigger advantage than you think. All jets have a stalling speed.
mfi
Hope for the Best, expect the Worst…! *sigh*
Ah well you know the old joke – an optimist is of the opinion that this is the best of all possible worlds a pessimist is horribly afraid that the optimist might be right.
gor
And it’s all playing out on that proverbial ‘Grand Chessboard’, all eleventy dimensions of it, can you say ‘Check Mate‘…? 8-(
I can even say Shah-mak Charles and so can you :-). Time for me start the day – I make it early evening where you are, enjoy.
mfi
I grew up through the end of the cold war.
I have worked for a couple of defected Russians through the years. Those people I was taught were technologically “inferior” kept up with us building stuff out of the junk yard during the cold war.
The Russians beat us into space using left over WWII parts. They broke our secret codes by stealing them. The first thing they said about Ray-Gun’s Star wars was that multiple warhead missiles they already had could easily overwhelm any less than 100% shield with cheap dummy warheads. We still can’t beat that tactic today after 30 years and a secret number of billions of dollars later.
They docked in space with us using a flight computer that worked like a large music box with the bumps on the drum operating switches. Mission changes consisted of speeding up or slowing down the drum motor.
We are and were no where near as smart as we think we are.
Whoa Markfro@105,getting a little defensive dude .How the fuck do I know about your water expertise ,and what makes you think I called it into question ? If you have any credibility ,tell me where hez got the drones.
Other than coming off as an asshole ,why make a point about the Iranians having 3 as opposed to 1 drone ? Could you not deduce that I conveyed the Iranians found a virtual ufo insofar as their knowledge locus ? So if not Iran,how did Hez get those drones ?
You’ve had a long day ,so why not just calm down ,go upstairs and have your mom make you a sandwich .then find me some answers so I can appreciate your alleged expertise .
I will check back tomorrow ,if I have time .Good night sweetie .
Thank you MFI and all the commenters here. A very informative discussion.
Read all the comments. Don’t just skim and rush down to reply.
The answers to all of that are contained there. Such as where MFI is, his background or how many years the Hezb and the Iranians have had drones etc.
And it is 9:00AM where he is.
defogger, you do realize ya capture more flies with honey, than with vinegar…?
Did you read any of the follow-on comments…? Seriously…? Gor suffers fools like you lightly, if you have anything substantial to add to the conversation, besides your snide asides, he might grace ya with a response…! Personally, I wouldn’t hold my breath…! 8-(
Thank you MFI. I have learned much this day.
Manned military aircraft should have become history a couple of decades ago, and would have except for the fact that the Air Force and Naval Avaiation were run by silk-scarf pilot types, who did everything they could to resist the encroachment of unmanned aerial vehicles. It took the CIA to usher in the era of drones.
But, there’s no repealing technology. Drones (unmanned aircraft) are here to stay, and that includes surveillance missions both foreign and domestic, cargo flights, and so-called “surgically precise” hit jobs, both foreign and domestic. That’s the future in which we will live, and not all of these activities will be conducted by our government. (Think of drones in the hands of the Zetas.)
Hey Ctuttle ,you remain the crown prince of gullibility .I responded in kind to his response to me ,which you either ignored while admonishing me to read a hundred fucking comments,or thought was dripping with honey .Maybe you some other problem from the past with me that elicited such a nasty-ass response with fool ad hominem .
The substance of my remark was I don’t believe this fuck when he claims Hez used drones in 2006 ;but I initially made a generalized comment ,rather than directly attack him as you and he assailed me .I guess you dismiss the notion that Israel might be seeking to confiscate South Lebanese water by eliminating Hez .I didn’t advance my belief as fact ,so unless you have a “substantial ” argument that I’m wrong ,why not just accept it as a comment ?
I don;t know who this joker is ,or about the Irish diggs .How do you know he isn’t an AIPAC operative trying to plant pro-war propaganda to the suckers and squares who not only readily accept it but call others fools if they challenge it ?
Bottom line : Neither of us know who this person is ,or if this is legit ,but in these times I;m suspicious of anyone who is framing and inculpating any entity with a rationale that could justify war .It appears that such an attack is either agreeable to you or you are just a garden-variety dupe .Oh ,damn ,I forgot my honey ,and I really want to be loved by my attackers .Some people only warrant snide .you dig ?
Interesting comment…so it would seem…Americans came out of WW2 thinking they were The Victors Who Would Be Ruling the World To Come…POTUS Harry Truman subscribed to this approach. WashingtonDC chose to go with high priced militarism that was to be called the Department of Defense — calling it the War Department having become too honest. The Pentagon was filled up with American militarism that was largely formed around the concept(s) of corporatism. All the better for blending American arms merchants and the wares they wanted to sell and American military men who were convinced WW2 validated American militarism that revolved around spending on weapons lavishly and always making lots of them which soon enough were then made obsolete by better weapons.
Hence the hundreds of thousands $$ became hundreds of millions $$ and then became hundreds of billions $$.
WashingtonDC now shovels well over one trillion $$ into American Defense each year here in early 21st century. Plus what the CIA,NSA,related atomic fuel agencies and what is put on the Foreign Military Aid conveyor belt by WashingtonDC which seems to never stop running.
Americans found in Korea during early 1950s that the winning was not going to come easy and this discovery left them dazed and confused.
Vietnam beat the Americans and caused WashingtonDC to know a defeat Japan had failed to bring about during WW2. That being so was and is a remarkable feat the Americans do not like to talk about in honest ways.
The Iraq Wars whether the 1991 episode or the 2003 episode were lopsided contests that proved the Americans could beat up a third rate ME military easypleasy. Clearly attacking Libya in 2011 was again all about the western militarists/corporatists picking off a weak military that never stood a chance. Gadaffi was easy to cast as the villain again just as Saddam was. Oddly enough taking out these two “villains” created more problems than solved problems. Which is what seems to be unreeling in Afghanistan and now in Syria as well.
It is going to be a big mistake attacking Iran as the Americans indeed will soon find out ignorance and arrogance are weak links for the warrior caste to not know and see. Iran perhaps will be able to field another Vietnam performance. Would be a great but terrible victory for Iran. With suffering,death and damage costs likely for Iran now unavoidable to gain a pushback of WashingtonDC and American Empire.WashingtonDC will not bend down otherwise.
WashingtonDC is due for a good bend down. Americans are now the real warbastards.
Non sequitur much?
I’m with defogger in as much as this seems more provocation than “productive” mutually assured terrorism. What will Israel do in response to this stupid envisioning of drone swarm terror? Nothing good, that’s for sure.
So tell us, MarkFromIreland, for God’s sake, what the links are between Hezbollah and Mossad, hmmm?
Actually defogger, folks who have been around here for years DO know who MFI is and know he is exactly who and what he purports to be. He is on the ground in the ME, has been a member of ME humanitarian and peace keeping groups and is retired from the Irish army. He KNOWS what he is talking about due to actually having lived in the region dealing with the crap.
Thank you so much, mfi, for taking the time to write and respond to comments. You penetrate the propaganda, and the reality of what is actually going on in the ME hits me like a ton of bricks.
Thank you.
“So tell us, MarkFromIreland, for God’s sake, what the links are between Hezbollah and Mossad, hmmm?”
I hope he answers you, for I sure have no idea what the answer to that question is. It seems like a tinfoil hat question to me, though. Are you implying that some nefarious conspiracy like the Rothschilds or the Trilateral Commission is pulling Hezbollah’s strings? Somehow, I don’t believe that one for a second.
Hezbollah and Mossad certainly aren’t friends, but they may have some back channels of communication for even enemies sometimes need to talk to each other when they do have a common interest or when there can be a mutually beneficial deal, such as a prisoner exchange.
That’s admittedly pure speculation on my part, however. I really don’t know.
What’s with your conspiracy-labeling? Isn’t the A-merkin construction of the Cold War threat accepted fact, now? You reject all conspiracies? Hmm.
Don’t ruling apes love a protection racket, comrade? And, for one particular, what about the sellouts of the Palestinian Authority? Now MarkFromIRE-LAND, for God’s sake, (or should I say, ho ho?) is not likely to deliver anything more than condescension, but if Hamas was nurtured by Israel:
what are the joint advantages of Hezbollah and the Mossad, Comrade Barbarian?
If you’re going to rule out the clandestine involvement of US “intelligence” with Islamists, you’ll be more blind than a bat.
And this happened while half the west is over there playing war games?
Thanks for the report Mark. I too miss your diaries and insight.
Nobody is as smart as they like to think they are.
mfi
Yes, pretty much, I would point out that during the invasion of Irak that the (completely hollowed out) Iraki army did put up a stiff resistance in some sectors but were massively outgunned.
Iran is going to be bad – the only way to stop their nuclear programme by force of arms is to invade and occupy the place. That will go even worse for America and Americans than the invasion and occupation of Irak did.
mfi
You’re welcome.
mfi
Love that comment!
Sorry no, I don’t do dilettantes, I don’t do delusional, and delusional dilettantes such as Ludwig while occasionally moderately entertaining are a complete waste of time.
mfi
Actually I don’t suffer fools like that at all. You’re far more tolerant of that sort of eejit than I am.
mfi
Thanks for that, but this is pretty much a one-off. It’s a game-changer so worth making an exception for.
mfi
Yes me too.
mfi
I can hear the orchestra tuning up for the 1812 overture every July 4th, but where are the trucks and the tv cameras embedded with the troops? Ted Koppell and views of distant camels and all that.
Thank you very much, markfromireland. This has been a most educational thread.
You’reEdited by Moderator, MarkFromIREland. You “did” me above.
Does no one else get queasy with this character’s belligerency? USIsrael is a monster, but celebrating the droning of paranoid Zionists is …
There appears to be a mask of sanity problem here.
If you’re interested h I wrote a three part series three weeks into the July war about the Hizb their history and a very early analysis of why the IDF was getting its backside handed to it on a plate. It’s a transcript of a series of lectures as part of a seminar. My job was to think and analyse as though I were an IDF analyst worried by failure. Links are here:
Gorilla’s Guides » Blog Archive » Getting Inside Their Heads (Part 1)
Gorilla’s Guides » Blog Archive » Getting Inside Their Heads (Part 2)
Gorilla’s Guides » Blog Archive » Getting Inside Their Heads (Part 3)
The Hizb’s history is well known and easily researched. But I like to think I give a good starting point for intelligent googling.
mfi
There’s also this:
Gorilla’s Guides » Blog Archive » Guest Posting by Declan: “What I Did At The Weekend”
Which was written by the best sergeant I ever had the honour of commanding. He lives in Lebanon and was invited to the Divine Victory rally at which the Hizb celebrated their defeat of the Israelis. He’s a very shrewd observer.
mfi
Peacelover that I am, I am the daughter of a kiwi army officer who in the dead of night once assembled his trainee recruits to ‘contain’ King Farouk within his palace walls so he wouldn’t defect to the Germans. Not a shot was fired during the incident, except as one of the recruits was dismantling his rifle afterwards, and no harm done. Being much of a Pollyanna, that’s how I like to remember WWII though I lost a dear uncle as the armies all converged in Tunisia. He’s buried there.
You’re welcome. The ripples of the event under discussion are going to be going on for a long time. I felt a “heads up” was in order
mfi
People with connections to the military often are the most passionate about peace. Not really surprising. They and soldiers see and bear some of the most horrific costs of it directly. May your father rest in peace. The Kiwis were known to be good and honourable soldiers with a fine record.
mfi
And many ain’t. Not recommended as the smug custodians of peace for that reason among others.
Go and read (as I have just done) markfromIreland’s links at #149. Therein you will find:
“Every time a purely military solution is tried it leads to a situation in which a new, more determined, and more capable enemy arises…”
He doesn’t need to defend his analysis. It speaks for itself.
Uh huh. And how exactly do you reconcile that with threatening to swarm-drone paranoid Zionists?
Analysis doesn’t speak for itself, even if it were coherent.
I learned about the day my uncle died by reading “An Army at Dawn” by Rick Atkinson, an account I highly recommend, mostly dealing with the American Army and where it went in North Africa during that stage of the war. I’d sort of felt civilians didn’t suffer as it was desert fighting; not true.
My father came home and was most peacefully employed in the tourist industry but at one stage joined the UN observation of the ceasefire line in Kashmir. Better days than these, in the early 50′s.
Thank you for all you do and have done to promote peace.
The paranoid Zionists might then have second thoughts, and we would all be better off.
Incoherence is contagious.
Thank you.
mfi
You might find another ridiculous sympathy in a recommended author from MarkFromIREland:
But that would mean I can’t have your stuff.
Thanks for these links Mark. Interesting reading.
you’re welcome
mfi
Mark!
Your tenacity and morality continue to inspire and amaze me.
Have a tomatoe, the size of a small pumpkin.
I love autumn.
You know I live in Southern California, so do we enjoy similar climates? Olives, grapes, viney stuff.
it depends demi – when I’m in Denmark you definitely have the more enviable climate. Irak – depends on where, these days I’m mostly in Ninawah and Diyalah which is a climate I like a lot. Lots of lovely fertile land which grows lovely fresh fruit and veg.
mfi
How very nice. Thanks for your reports and your humanity.
NP :-).
mfi
Sonny and I went to a harvast farmers market yesterday and were just amazed at the size of some of the squash. And, the varied and varigated colors. It was like Art On Parade.
You shoulda seen the size of the pumpkin that is One Hunnerd dollahs!
Pinky swear. And, someone will buy it, I have no doubt.
Well my yesterday was spent going to the bakery and then going with my grandchildren to a nearby forest. Lots of running around and yuffling of berries. Autumn in Denmark is a lovely time of year and especially now that I’ve grandchildren I try to spend a few weeks in Denmark every autumn. There’s a gentle beauty to the Danish landscape that I find quite irresistible. There are various farmers fairs etc at this time of year too. They can be a lot of fun
mfi
Blessings upon blessings, Markwhereveryou are.
(My paternal grandmother gives me my Danish roots. Petersen.
Its certainly challenging to be here now, but then, we can read these words from many past histories.
Enjoy! Feed them well, have some fun, and honor and share our beliefs.
No back channels or collaboration between Israel and Hezbollah.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2011/11/21/how-israeli-spies-were-betrayed-by-their-cell-phones/
@Ludwig #137
Hamas is muslim brotherhood and though they execute collaborators and spies too, they have some poodle DNA. Not so with Hezbollah.
Thanks Mark, it’s a great diary. I didn’t know that Mohammed Ibn Laith was a sadrist! Interesting! Does he have a kunya?
Thanks, it’s sufficiently important an event that I thought it was worth writing about. As to Mohammed, following the murder of first his grandfather, then the murder of his parents, then murder of his 9 years old brother all by American forces Mohammed decided to accept the standing invitation to join the resistance following a training course in Lebanon he set up his own unit. They were very successful – in his sector no Americans ever set foot outside their FOB’s other than in heavily armed convoys. He made sure that PRT leaders went home dead or wounded he made sure that civilian PRT members never ever got to leave their compounds. Irakis visiting the PRT were hunted down and given one warning. If they visited the PRT a second time they were hunted down and killed. Ditto informers, ditto translators. He’s heavily involved in Sadrist politics as well as his studies. As to his Kunya why don’t you ask him the next time you see him here :-).
mfi