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Over the course of the last six years we have incurred many medical debts. In the middle of the illnesses we filed for bankruptcy thinking our run of bad luck had ended. Didn’t. We both got sick again.
So, we have been fielding phone calls for some time now from collection agencies. It got worse when we could no longer pay our credit card bills and student loans.
Recently, Ron received a notice of intent to levy from a collection agency. UhOh. It was a medical debt of Ron’s from his heart surgery.
Ron filed a claim of exemption since in California social security cannot be levied and that is his entire income. There was a court date set so Ron could prove his claim of exemption.
When he went to court he was told that the state of California had given him more time to prepare his case and didn’t he get a notice from the lawyer that had sued him? Apparently, it was the lawyer’s responsibility to send Ron the notice.
No. He had not.
The new court date was set for 01-08-2008. Ron showed up. The attorney for the collection agency did not. Ron showed the judge his paperwork that was the evidence that he could not pay and that his income was from social security. The judge found in Ron’s favor.
That was on Friday. On Saturday when I checked the mail we had received a letter from the collection agency stating, "I received notice from the court that your claim of exemption has been denied. If you want to avoid any further levies in the future,we will accept a resumption of $100.00 monthly payments. Please use the enclosed envelope to mail a $100.00 payment for January by 1/15/10."
I guess they figured that since they had not informed us of the new court date we would not show up and they would prevail by default.
By my count the collection agency and their lawyer committed fraud twice. Once by not sending Ron the letter informing him of the extention by the state. And the second time by demanding money and stating that the court had found in their favor.
We will be talking to the D.A. on Monday. I wonder how many people are not eating or paying their utility bills because they sent their money to these jerks.
I see this as preparation for the time when we go to court if the banksters want to take our house. The key is to find out all you can and to fight back.
I want to thank my sister who is a paralegal in New Orleans for her advice through this experience. Thanks Sister Woman!
66 Comments
holy shit mary — recommended
Quite a pisser, ain’t it.
Mary, thanks for detailing your situation. I’m not sure what state you live in but many have laws regulating what collection agencies can and cannot do. Also, many states have laws regulating unfair business practices and allow treble damages against the defendant.
It seems to me that not only might some criminal statutes have been broken in your case but you also may well have the right to a civil complain and the ability to pursue “unfair business practices” and/or a RICO (essentially racketerring which is broadly defined) action against the collection agency, and/or fraud.
YOU SHOULD ALSO INFORM THE JUDGE INVOLVED IN YOUR CASE as to what the lawyer and his client did. He could be disciplined and sanctioned (even to the point of disbarment). Send a separate copy of your statements (which all should be written up as a certified affidavit) to your state’s agency that oversees lawyers. That lawyer’s license could be revoked.
So in short, you have at least 3 avenues you should pursue:
1) the criminal one (which you are doing). But it is likely that the prosecutor will tell you that you should file a civil suit which you can do too. The criminal side is the least likely to work.
2) a civil suit (based on RICO and your state’s laws governing debt collection) and on unfair and deceptive business practices and/or fraud.
3) contact the judge who you saw (best done personally but also send him a certified letter) and send the same letter and a complaint to the bar association that oversees lawyers in your state.
YOU SHOULD ALSO SEE A LAWYER IN YOUR AREA. Having the family friend who is a paralegal helping out is nice but is no substitute for local knowledge of the law.
Look for a low cost legal service or for a lawyer who will take action for you on a contingency fee (he collects a percentage of anything you get, that’s his fee). Usually, lawyers who work on a contingency fee basis will listen to you and give you some free advice even if they do not take your case. Your bar association should also have a legal referal service that can put you in touch with such lawyers.
The best defense in the law is a good offense. Go for it.
Additional notes to Mary:
I doubt the D.A. will do much for you other than to tell you to go back to the original judge who found in Ron’s favor. That’s because the criminal system is so clogged with work and because the DA would have to prove his case by the highest standard in law: “beyond a reasonable doubt”.
You have civil remedies available (a lawsuit) AND you have the ability to go back and see the judge and complain about what the company and their lawyer did. The judge might very well see this as a serious breach of legal standards and a “fraud on his own court”. I also strongly suggest that you file papers against the opposing lawyer with the state agency overseeing its lawyer’s: the state bar association. Send them a certified letter along with a cover letter telling what happened and copies of all supporting documents (like whatever you got from the court when it sided with Ron and also the letters from the collection agency).
You have a golden opportunity here to use the law against the people who have been harrassing you.
Thanks! I will do it.
Do it carefully.
Do it correctly.
Rock and Roll all over these bozos.
You’re not likely to get a lot of help from the DA because their budgets have been cut while the three strikes and other laws keep on going. Most local bar associations maintain lists of lawyers who will do pro bono work if you want to consult with someone for free about civil cases you might be able to file. I would definitely bring the letter to the attention of the judge who heard your case as well. They tend to frown on things like that and s/he might be willing to take some action against the attorneys and their clients like sanctioning them or reporting them to the state bar.
For others reading, this is SOP for many collection agencies dealing with debts and for insurance companies dealing with claims. Even when they know they are wrong, the price of a letter and a stamp often gets them money or saves them money because people don’t know their rights and have been taught to trust authorities who “understand these things better.” Always fight back and make them prove everything. Never assume that because they say they have the right to do something or you have the obligation to do something that they are correct.
Wow, Mary, think how many people you might help by posting this.
I hope you have yourselves a pet lawyer to keep out in the yard on a chain when you’re done with him. This is ridiculous.
Best to you and Ron — recommended!
Please follow up on this story your experience positive or negative should be interesting.
Good suggestions by Paula and flambeau. You may also have a federal and/or state fair credit act cause of action.
I think it’s worth seeing a lawyer to see if you have a claim under the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act. Wikipedia has a good description of the law here. It prohibits debt collectors from deceiving people into paying debts, and it prohibits seeking unjustified amounts, both of which seem applicable. There may be other provisions. The law provides for minimum damages of $1,000 for each violation, but more important, it allows the court to order the debt collector to pay your attorney fees, so your lawyer will probably get paid.
In Nashville, several bankruptcy lawyers have begun working in this area of the law as a side practice, and that may be so in your community as well. A bankruptcy lawyer may also be able to refer you to someone who can and will handle your case. Legal Aid used to do it here as well, and offered referal services.
Get ‘em! Get ‘em! Get ‘em!
(extensive list of expletives aimed at evil debt collecters.)
Thanks for posting, Mary. Publicity with these kinds of things can be important, too, so if you have time, keep us updated.
I want to start a blog that will help people navigate through the bullshit hurdles placed in the way of basic human needs. I understand how to get divorced cheaply, maneuver through the social security system, get on breast cancer medi-cal division in California, and am learning about push back in relationship to the economic power structure. I would have to put a disclaimer on it since I am not a lawyer.
Masaccio is correct here. Best of luck to both you and Ron.
Wow Mary just got to your amazing Diary! Use every means and avenues to teach these creeps a legal lesson they won’t forget!! Sure wish the criminal side works, these kind of creeps don’t like jail time…. they just meet up with some they had harassed in the past!! We have all heard of “Prison Justice”!!
Mary, you rock.
Just be careful to keep everything on paper. And let us know how it turns out.
This could be a weekly saga. Bravo, Mary!
While your at it see if you can find out who holds your mortgage. If it is CDO secured and has been traded like millions they may not know who owns it. Seems holding onto your house maybe as a homestead is a critical part of survival.I refused to pay may last bill from ATT internet as they did not keep me on line. Now I get calls ad bills and my credit has been cut from 18,000 to $700.00 by one bank. I lost my home in the 1980 housing bubble along with 25% down plus improvements. Been at the mercy of landlords every since or living in a PU.
Thanks. Can you be my consultant for housing on the take action blog I want to start?
Good luck. Most of CA’s 58 counties have county law libraries that are free, open to the public and staffed by knowledgeable legal reference library staff. Law librarians cannot practice law and/or give legal advice, but they can guide the layperson in how to find and use legal materials, including guidance to forms to be used in filing court cases. In some counties, there are also civil self-help centers that can provide free legal assistance, mainly of the form filling variety.
To access info:
http://www.yourpubliclawlibrary.org (for info about CA county law libraries)
http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/selfhelp/ (for CA court self-help info)
Some other states have county and/or state law libraries, which provide legal reference services to the public, although sadly some of these valuable community resources are losing funding.
Good luck, Mary, with your situation. I wish you all the best, and you are exactly right: citizens need to be prepared to do their homework in situations like this. You are as shining example of what can happen if you stick to your guns, do your homework and push for results. Not everyone will prevail, but some will. But you have to be prepared to work at it; it’s not easy; but it is possible.
Maybe it should be a fighting back blog.
I used the law library via the internet and the selfhelp site when we were getting divorced. I went to the court house nine times to file papers. I was told the wrong information every time by the people behind the window. I finally got a paralegal to help with it. But, you are right, these two places provide a ton of information. You have to be really, really vigilant and careful.
Often court staff behind the windows are not well trained and/or are not permitted to give “real” info to citizens asking questions. The county law libraries are usually a better resource for obtaining guidance on what to do or how to proceed than the court staff. However, the website that I provided, above, is a good resource.
The court self-help centers are different from the court staff behind the various windows. They are usually run by legal-aid types of organizations and given funding via grants from the courts or the AOC in CA. If your county has a self-help center at the courthouse (or possibly within the law library), you will get good help there.
Best to you.
Toby and Millineryman both have regular blogs up. Millineryman’s is fairly new, but Toby has enough posts up that she has a regular following.
And crossposting here is the perfect complement for what you want to do.
I am spending time at the law library. They direct me and my attorney to sources. And the people behind the window for the courts are used to attorneys so they do not help so much. I agree with the others BMAZ, Massacio are experts. Must have an attorney for procedural issues
Onotgoes makes good comments.
Senior legal Aid http://www.seniorlegalhotline.org/ (916) 551-2145
It is free call make an appoinymney or go by to be sure. They will be busy but will have counsel for you. Paralegals are good with forms but specialize in areas where they can make money and they charge.
You have a witness in Ron a leg up on me. Keep a daily log book for this effort a file on desktop as to who you call and when and follow or preceed with written statements with question. When their feet are held to the fire you will get a totally different response with better results.
I am not an expert in housing by any means but do have a lot of good sources in NP housing corproation and local government HUD folks. I am hanging in by my teeth.
Good luck Mary…It grieves me how much effort & time & stress are involved is all this bs…let alone scary. Good luck to you all. Let us help any way possible. I did not read all the comments, but often the local courthouse has a Law Library and staff who can help with research and details.
Thanks for this excellent post Mary. We’re rooting for you. Hope you will continue to write about your fighting back here as well as your home blog, to get maximum exposure for your ideas.
Once again, Mary, the generosity that you and Ron show in sharing your stories to help other people who are in need is heartwarming. All the best to the two of you. Your attitude in not letting the bad guys win is truly inspiring and is just as valuable as your advice.
I can’t add anything useful to the advice of the experts, Mary but kudos to you an Ron for fighting back.
Also, congrats on getting front paged. :-)
Good for you and Ron for fighting back. I’ve decided that we need to fight everything no matter how small with the gov’t we have now and have had for quite some time. If we wait until it gets really bad it’s too late. Best to both of you and many happy and peaceful years ahead.
Senator “Fight Back” Mac! Good for you and Ron!
Front Pager MaryMc!! Woot!! Fight back with all you and Ron have!!
Passive resistance only makes you die more painfully, or so it seems. Information and fighting back is better.
Fight Back! Go Mary Mc!
…see if you have a claim under the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act.
Beat me to it.
fuckin’ lawyers.
I really hate to hear all this, but am not in the least surprised. We will all remain but one major adverse medical incident away from a death dance with financial ruin, notwithstanding whatever weak piece of shit compromised bill gets passed in the name of “reform.”
Outstanding post, mary. Sic ‘em.
heh
Kick Ass Mary I hope your follow up gets front paged too! :)
Great post,Mary. Luck to you and Ron. Firedoglake, wow, what a great family! Bravo!
Go, Mary & Ron, and please keep posting. We’re rooting for you!
On edit: isn’t the “family” (no, not that one) at FDL the best??
Mods: I corrected “hear” at 43 several times, did a few hard refreshes, substituted other words for “hear” and finally rebooted Firefox, and the comment still appears with the incorrect word. This is very frustrating!!
Looks like your correction worked. Might need to let the page load fully before making an edit.
And often they are just incompetents who got their jobs because they are related to party hacks.
MARY,
please do keep everyone updated on what’s happening. Just a quick new diary entry with a link to this one should do it.
Best of luck and lots of us will stand by and give advice if you encounter some specific problems.
Just checking in after reading the diary, Mary Mac . . . recd!!!!
I hope you sue them, get millions and are able to bail out of it all!
Them fuckers got it comin to them . . . and it’s likely endemic within the system, too . . . as you suggest.
The carnage and devastation these fucks and all like them have wracked upon folks . . . bastids.
I’ve had a collection agency call my house before, talk to my girlfriend (of 10 years) and tell her that she’s a low life because I wasn’t home. When they did get ahold of me, they repeated it to me and also made some off hand threats. I’ve since installed a recorder for my phone so I can record conversations from now on if I need to – since I told them that I was reporting them and hung up on them, they have yet to call back (a few months now).
I do hope you win a whole lot of money and/or they spend some time in jail for fraud. I’ll be keeping an eye out for updates.
Bad Health would be bad enough without the worry of Health Care now you have to fight a battle thru the legal system to prove there nothing left for them to take.and if you don’t have the strengh to fight what
{{{{marymccumin}}}}}}}} Man, oh,man.
My daughter decided to study for paralegal because that’s where her interests lie. Lot to be said for having a paralegal in the family in these strange days.
Peace
good luck in your fight mary, i wish you well
i wonder when and how we, the american people, will finally have had enough and stand up and take the power structure down
what i see is that there is something like 20% of the people on the progressive side that are angry and motivated, another 20% on the far right conservative side that are angry and motivated, which leaves more than half of the population unwilling to put up a real fight for justice.
if the economy suddenly got a little better, more than half of americans would be happy to maintain the status quo.
how and when is this situation going to change?
Mary, you are an inspiration.
Mary,
Thank you so much for sharing.
I would also like to thank those in the comments.
I have been meeting too many people who are myopic about the financial crisis, health care, insurance, and predatory lending. I am happy to read the compassion stated here instead of the, “I’ll take care of mine. It’s your problem you got sick and now have financial problems.”
Over the holidays, I stood in line at the post office and a discussion about the economy and related issues, such as the rise in homeless families, started up in the line. I mentioned my concern for all the high end engineers and scientists laid off at a local employer and hoped the economy would pick back up to reemploy such individuals within their area of expertise so Ohio and the country would not suffer from brain drain. Someone in the line actually stated, “If they are so smart why don’t they go and get a job at McD’s? Really, if they are so smart why didn’t they have a back career? And if they are married, why don’t both of them get jobs at McD’s?”
They were not joking. Not that there is a problem with working at McDonald’s. The problem is the need to keep people with specified expertise employed within their field to help the economy.
I confronted their response and pointed out the kinds of beneficial R&D many of the laid off were participating in and how we have all benefitted. Gave a little econ lesson and addressed their prejudice against higher education.
I asked them what was their back-up career?
Total crickets.
Then a group in the line yelled “Thank you!” to me and clapped.
The same group would be yelling, “Thank you!” to you too Mary.
When this type of thing happened to me, the judge ruled against the no-show lawyer scum ‘with predjudice.’ This served as an official notice to other courts in the state that this lawyer (and his client) were bad actors, requiring a higher level of scrutiny before allowing a case to proceed. Maybe CA has a similar mechanism.
Go Mary; that is the way to do it. I recently found out that the company that originally had our first mortgage never even filed it with the county. I have been paying money to someone that never had claim.
Look for the mistakes. If you find them, not only do you likely provide a helpful defense, but you also provide an attorney with a first reason to take your case. You can do some of the work for them.
Gather those facts!
Thanks so much for all of the great comments.
You go, Mary! Be sure to cross-post your blog here.
What does that mean?
I think she means if you start a blog about your experiences independent of FDL, to also post (cross-post) at FDL.
” I’m not sure what state you live in but many have laws regulating what collection agencies can and cannot do.”
Pretty evident from her article that she lives in Calif.
Unsurprising but sad. The right has really ginned up the ersatz outrage at people allegedly not being responsible enough or something. Sure we can all go out and try to get fast food service or dept store jobs (if those even are available these days), but yes, what a waste of some people’s talents (and no offense meant to those working in the service industry; we need them, too).
There was an article the other day in our local newspaper about the local public law library, the services offered, and a discussion about the the services offered by the local civil service help center (staffed by an attorney and some paralegals). The newspaper commenters had a field day being rude and dissimissive of the citizens that they *imagine* use the law library and self-help center. Mostly in the vein about what losers these citizens must be because they got themselves in some kind of trouble and now they are all evil socialists who want a free hand-out and so on.
It’s really alarming how angry and attacking some portions of our population can be, especially when they are totally clueless about the facts. It’s all about attacking someone who they seem to feel is attempting to rip them off personally. Their inaccurate and paranoid rage has been stoked by the rightwing noise machine, and they’ve been encouraged to make snap negative judgements based on no facts whatsoever.
Good for you for your discussion in the post office line. Hopefully some of what you said sunk in. Sadly I didn’t seem to have much effect on the newspaper posters; they clung to their anger and refused to see the facts. And so it goes.
In some cases, but the issues are somewhat more complex than that. There are real issues about non-attorneys not practicing law. It can be a very fine line when attempting to assist the layperson on how to deal with legal matters. In some cases, court staff are told not to tell citizens very much in order to avoid the unauthorized practice of law. It is frustrating for people who come to court, for sure, but the staff are just following orders.
OTOH, it is surprising how some people expect court staff to know the answer to very complex legal questions. Citizens often don’t “get” that the question they are asking is actually a really complex legal issue with no simple, straightforward answer. I have been in circumstances where people have yelled at me because they believed that I “knew the answer but wouldn’t tell it.” Yet I totally didn’t know the answer and was in no way going to attempt a “guess.” Believe me, you don’t want someone “guessing” about what you need to do in a legal case.
But I digress. Most of the staff working in courts don’t have any political connections; they are just your rank and file civil service employee. A lot depends on the training opportunities their court provides, plus the culture of that court and whether the judges, themselves, are open to providing more services to self-represented litigants.
So caveat emptor. If you’re representing yourself in a legal matter, you need to take the bull by the horns and do as much as you can to learn about what you need to do. And now I’ll get off the soap box… ;-)
Where do you live? Not that the incident couldn’t happen anyway.
Milagro, with all due respect, you are misinterpreting “dismissal with prejudice.” It means that the court has made a final determination in a case and the plaintiff cannot file a new suit on the same grounds. It does not go to the point you seem to be making about a lawyer or his client being a bad guy.
“Dismissal with prejudice” is the opposite of “dismissal without prejudice” which means the plaintiff CAN BRING another law suit based on the same grounds. For instance, the plaintiff might be able to proceed on a settlment that is not paid by the defendant.
on a semi-related issue.
tax debt is NOT consumer debt and is NOT protected under the Consumer Protection Act, at least not in Illinois.
Which means that if your tax debt gets turned over to a collection agency, be prepared to be harrassed.