The New York Times calls attention to a cousin of foreclosure fraud. Vulture funds buy defaulted credit card debt and use robo-signers and other fraudulent tactics to collect. I have a story about this.
I’m thinking it was in 2002 that a woman came to see me about filing bankruptcy. Her ex-husband had been stealing from his business, and when he got caught, his partner threw him out, leaving him no money. He immediately took out a credit card and signed his wife’s name on the application. She divorced him, and he was ordered to pay all of his bills, including credit cards. He filed bankruptcy just before he was trundled off to jail.
Debt Collector 1 started calling and writing the ex-wife in 2002. That’s when she came to see me. I didn’t think she owed this debt, so I wrote the company demanding a copy of the application showing that she was liable on the account. They went away. We were able to compromise with her other creditors, so she didn’t have to file.
A year later, Debt Collector 2 wrote and called. I wrote demanding the paperwork. They disappeared. A few weeks later, a law firm in another Tennessee city filed suit in Nashville. I wrote, demanding a copy of the paperwork. They asked for a continuance twice, and then dismissed the case, saying they would refile when they found the paperwork.
Each year, for the next 3 years, a new debt collector would call, I would write with copies of all prior correspondence and the dismissal, and they disappeared. . . .
In the fifth year, when Debt Collector 6 called, I wrote and told it that the statute of limitations had expired, and that if I heard from it again, I would file suit. I wrote that letter to Debt Collector 7 the next year, and as far as I know, that one took, because she didn’t hear from them after that.
It turns out that banks charge off defaulted credit card debt and sell it, and it isn’t at all rare that buyers cannot produce paperwork showing that they are entitled to be paid. I’m not the only one who figured this out.
“I’ve lost four and I’ve taken about 5,000 cases,” said Jerry Jarzombek, a consumer lawyer in Fort Worth. “If the case goes to trial, I say to the judge, ‘Your honor, imagine if someone came in here to give eyewitness testimony in a traffic accident case and they didn’t actually see the crash. They just read about it somewhere. Well, this is the same thing.’ The debt buyers don’t know anything about the debt. They just read about it.”
And here’s another example, In re Kendall, 380 B.R. 37, (Bankr. N.D. OK 2007). The Debtor in a Chapter 13 case objected to a proof of claim filed by B-Real, LLC. B-Real said it owned a credit card debt. The Debtor demanded proof of ownership. B-Real produced a bill of sale from Chase Manhattan Bank of 2,875 accounts, but couldn’t produce the exhibit that listed the accounts. At trial, the Debtor testified that he had a credit card with Providian Bank, and that the account was sold to Chase Manhattan Bank. He disputed the amount of the debt. The Court found that B-Real did not prove that it owned the debt, and denied its proof of claim.
As with mortgage foreclosure fraud, there isn’t any real question about the existence of the debt. Most people actually got money from their lenders, and owe something. The problem is that people don’t know to whom they owe the money. Furthermore, many of these companies bought the claims for next to nothing. They may very well offer to settle for a small percentage in cash, which opens the door to a vicious fraud. They might collect something and resell the debt to another company, or they might claim your payment was an acknowledgment of the debt which extends the statute of limitations.
The one thing missing from all the discussions about this scam and foreclosure fraud is the unwillingness of Judges in these courts to protect their jurisdiction. Lawyers and their clients lie to their faces, and Judges do nothing. Until Judges start holding liars in contempt, imposing fines and jail time, whether it’s lying about a $3,400 credit card debt or a $340,000 mortgage, this isn’t going to get better.




41 Comments




Thank you for this. I have a recent experience with debt collectors and credit card companies. I had at least four debt collectors trying to collect the same alleged debt. A credit card company sued me, a card company I had never before heard of and on an account number I also had never before heard of. I filed a motion to dismiss based upon insufficient complaint allegations and the judge accepted vague complaint allegations. So I answered and began discovery asking for proof of the debt and that I owed it. They gave me unintelligible responses so I noticed up the deposition of the corporate designee who was an unknown person but at least 2500 miles from the courthouse. At first the attorney filed a protective order and when I responsed and he could see that would be difficult he just dismissed the case with prejudice. They all violated the Fair Debt Collectors Act and I am considering an action against the attorneys and the company. They knew they could not prove the debt but were expecting a default. That is how they operate. They get defaults on 95% of these phony claims.
Maybe a Rule 11 motion for sanctions including your costs and fees would have left a nasty taste in the mouth of the lawyer that filed the complaint.
I thought about that but the costs amounted to $58 and the judge would never sanction an attorney. I actually think a separate action for violations of the Fair Debt Collections Act would send a better message and also would create a public record.
I just love the rhetorical post titles on FDL.
Rght? I admire you greatly masaccio but I gotta say, “Duh”. ;)
Mahalo, masaccio…! Very timely and pertinent…!
What specific ‘paperwork’ should an individual ask for from the creditor…?
If credit card default debt is being scammed, it might be helpful to look at what is happening with third-party collection of medical debts.
The original title before you click on the link is “Are Wimpy Judges Allowing Vulture Funds to Fraudulently Collect Credit Card Debt?” Rhetorical is just a fancy way of saying ‘duh.’ I often have this reaction to post titles at FDL.
When the collector for my son’s emergency room visit at college called him at my apt (his home address), she pronounced his name wrong. I told her that no one by that name lived where she was calling. Never heard from them again, although he might have gotten mail which he probably threw out. Don’t know what happened to his credit rating, though.
Really. Where is the signed note/agreement/contract/../../on and on they are very sloppy and lie through their teeth.???
Two things: I’ve noticed the change in titles from the original post to the front page tool
Secondly, love to see the photo of you, M. So cute!
demi,
Yes, I noticed both, which is why I explained my ‘rhetorical’ comment.
Quite a diff between the photo & the avatar, but both quite handsome in their own right.
Made choc. chip cookies this afternoon. Hold out your plates.
First you ask who the creditor is, so you can figure out if you owe them. If they say the name of the creditor that you actually owe, you ask politely if the collector is acting for that creditor or someone else. They tell you the real creditor then. Then you say you don’t owe them and ask for written evidence that you do.
If they don’t, call the creditor and ask for your balance. That should give you the answer.
That is a good point. You should make sure you are paying the right person before you send money.
blushes.
I was kind of fond of the avatar.
Ratcheer. Num. I made rice krispy treats with chocolate chips last night. Must be the weather. That, and I’m stocking up on holiday staples when they are on sale.
Masaccio, we think you are a handsome man, and you may have some chocolate chips. Plus, I always had a thing for the smart guys. Handsome too makes it hard to resist.
It’s okay if some of the gals get a little tinglecrush, I hope?
Thought you were gonna email me cutie… :)
I’m having this same problem. My identity was stolen after my wallet was “lost” I called the companies and they said I was not liable for the debts, but apparently they sold the debts anyway. Really it’s a serious problem as I apply for jobs where they do credit checks.
In the past, when I’ve had this situation, I’ve paid the provider directly instead of the collector and let them sort it out.
Mahalos…! ;-)
Yeah, but, what I did was email Suz, but she can’t help. Cauze the deal is sadly want to connect with you. For kittyfood. I have yours, but I don’t have sadly’s. Neither of your are on fb, so I don’t know how to connect you two. Until we have the social network up here, you’ll have to connect on line. You’re both here sometimes at latenight, yes? My attempts may not be working, but you know I have the best intentions. :)
Embarrasing to say, but I’ve done that too. Plus, hopefully the provider won’t have to pay the collecter a fee. Don’t know. But, it feels like it’s cleaner.
Did you file a notice with the credit reporting agency? That usually does the job.
Masaccio, another quick Q… What’s the statute of limitations on private debts…?
I had an analogous situation arise in my own life.
When I moved, I kept my old landline phone number. A month or so after I moved, a collection agency called me seeking to collect on an alleged bill for that old number, claiming I had not paid the phone company and that they had bought the debt and were entitled to be paid for it. This was quite surprising to me, since I had neither gotten any collection notices from the phone company, nor had I neglected to pay the phone bill before moving. I made a point of doing so, in fact. So, I knew the bill collector as full of shit.
I told them that I disputed the alleged debt and that the alleged debt did not exist. (Obviously, it couldn’t. My phone rang and worked when the bill collector called.) I also told them I would be contacting the phone company. The collector went into a song and dance playing all the psychologial games bill collectors do, telling me there was no one who could help me, that the phone company would have nothing to do with me, yadda yadda. I repeated that I disputed the alleged debt and that it did not exist. I also invited the bill collector to send me a written claim.
They did. So, I was able to find out that this was one of those bill collector companies. They had a bit of a history on the internet compaint sites, so I knew who I was dealing with.
A month passed, and they called again. This time they were threatening to ruin my credit. This did not disturb me: my credit was already in the crapper. I had had to sell my home out from under a foreclosure after my practice crapped out and I had been hit with a couple liens and a judgment for several thousand dollars, and then there was the old credit card that I’d paid off at less than 50 cents on the dollar. I smiled and told the bill collector that threatening to ruin my credit was both a violation of the federal Fair Debt Collection Practrices Act and, under most states’ laws, a form of extortion. Since they were using a telephone – interstate wire communications – to comunicsate that threat, they were exposing themselves to serious criminal liability. I also said I continued to dispute the validity of the alleged debt and that the alleged debt did not exist. We were talking on the phone, again, after all.
Collector: “When are you going to pay us?”
Me: “I’m not.”
Collector [shrieking]: “Why not?”
Me: “I don’t owe you or the phone company anything. The alleged debt does not exist.”
They hung up.
Another month passed, and another call.
This time, I took another angle, in addition to the “I owe you nothing. The alleged debt does not exist.”. This time, I told the collector that, if they were so certain about the validity and worth of their alleged debt, they should just sue me. My reasoning, as I told her, was that her claiming the debt was both valid and existed and my position that it never existed and there was no valid claim were insoluble. We could go around and around forever and never resolve it. So, I told her, she should go ahead and sue me.
I went further. I told the collector that, if they did not sue me, they would be admitting both that I was right – that there was no debt and that the alleged debt did not exist. And that I would make sure to remind them about that admission until the cows came home if they ever came calling again.
Collector: “But no one sues over $26.”
Me: “Either your claimed debt is real and you’ll seek to enforce it, or it isn’t and you won’t. If you won’t, then it does not exist. Let the judge call it. That’s why he’s there – to resolve disputes.”
That’s right. Twenty-six bucks I was fighting over. That’s a couple sixpacks of good German beer to me. I wasn’t giving some lying bill collector sleaze my beer.
I like going to court. It’s the most fun in being a lawyer.
See, they thought I’d roll over for only 26 bucks. They figure no one is going to fight them over that. And, if they get enough of those little bills that people won’t fight over paid, they’ll make just as much money as on a few big ones people do fight over.
Oh – yeah. That number with the allegedly unpaid bill? Still rings. And it surely would not be ringing if the phone company hadn’t been paid. But not from those bill collectors. They haven’t called since I challenged them to enforce their alleged debt.
So, stand up for yourself.
I had a collector, 10 years after the fact, claim he was a NY detective and was investigating me for fraud.(He even called my land lady and told her the same. She didn’t buy it either). He was rather nasty, so I told him I would check with the local police to see if what he said was true, and if not, I would go to the feds about this.
I never heard from them again.
I went through a chain of these vultures for several years. Although I never responded to them via mail (which would have ended it), I did learn to deal with their collectors over the phone. I learned to never admit their claim was valid, I learned never to tell them ‘I didn’t have enough money’ — I told them I refused to pay. I learned to get the callers off their script and intimidate them. They are required by law to be professional over the phone, but I’m not required to do so. The caller is required to give their name and I would google them while they were calling which put the caller off balance. After the stature of limitations passed, I got rather mean to them when they called, and that was the end.
Ron and I stopped paying all of our credit cards when our interest rates went way up cause we were late on payments. This was due to about five different reasons. We decided it was unAmerican to pay them at those rates. Since we only have social security for income we are judgement proof except for student loans.
It varies from state to state. In Tennessee, it is six years for a contract, but there are all kinds of interesting tolling rules. It looks to be the same in Hawaii. Here’s a state by state chart, but remember that there are tolling rules that also vary, like the one I described in the post: http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/article-29941.html
Here in Indiana we refer to it as “Zombie” debt. It just will not die.
After I got a particularly distasteful cold call from a guy that claimed to represent a private investigation firm in Atlanta which “had ways” of forcing the collection of bad debts (summer 2004), I went researching and found a piece on vulture funds that you cover in your excellent post. Seems like one prong of the scam is eliminated if the scuzzy, fraud-riddled we-blackmail-you-for-fun-and-profit business of “Consumer Credit Reporting” (i.e., Experian, TransUnion and Equifax) is terminated. There’s no accountability by these people and the databases are peppered with made-up stuff that won’t stay corrected if it ever gets corrected in the first place. For example, I once discovered that I had a black mark on my credit report as a CCR invented a spouse with bad debt. I was incensed and seriously considered suing them out of existence as who knows how many prospective employers looked at that lie and determined that *I* was misrepresenting myself (lying) on my application for work (oh goodie, another black mark propagated throughout every “background check” database and the corporate world to which every HR person had unfettered access before ever having to make a hiring decision). This was about the time I saw fear in the eyes of my banker who realized that there might be a run on all banks due to the wave of identity theft they wouldn’t do anything about and had been profiting from via their other arms, the credit cards (2005). So, boo hiss banksters, vulture funds, scamming collections agencies, credit card companies, credit reporting agencies, debt consolidation companies and any other company trafficking in personal data especially if it isn’t true. Just think what an incredible morale booster for the American people it would be if we took them all to the wood shed.
yah, my objection was reviewed and rejected by the credit reporting agency.
Mrs. BearCountry and I had a similar problem with a “debt collector.” We moved from Houston to NJ. About 6+ months after we moved, we got a letter from a private investigator saying that we owed the power and light company a lot of money and the company had given them the overdue account. I wrote back that before we left we had paid all the bills that we owed, we left our address at the post office for forwarding, and had not heard from any one until the notice that this “debt collector” sent. I responded by telling them that I didn’t owe anything, and if I heard from them again, I would go to the police. End of story.
masaccio you wrote:
“The one thing missing from all the discussions about this scam and foreclosure fraud is the unwillingness of Judges in these courts to protect their jurisdiction. Lawyers and their clients lie to their faces, and Judges do nothing. Until Judges start holding liars in contempt, imposing fines and jail time, whether it’s lying about a $3,400 credit card debt or a $340,000 mortgage, this isn’t going to get better.”
Hear, hear! Yes, there has to a consequence for judges, lawyers and their clients for lying or being a safe harbor for lies. I’d say we’re overdue for the house cleaning.
M, this is slightly off-topic, but does this relate in any way to those “we’ll help you settle with the IRS [or credit card companies] for pennies on the dollar” ads I see on the tee vee all the time? [I'm always tempted to reply, "how MANY pennies on the dollar? 99?"]
Those things make me very curious, and at times like these, with so many folks in trouble, I fear that folks may be calling them.
Great article. Thank you for posting this. Like many others here, I have had similar experiences. I refuse to pay a debt that I believe to be fraudulent, and tell the original creditor to take me to court. They don’t, thought they do report the debt to the credit bureaus.
I dispute the credit bureau report. Sometimes the ding disappears, sometimes they just leave it on as a disputed credit line, which still lowers my credit score. When the ding does disappear, it reappears when another collection agency buys the debt from a previous one for pennies on the dollar. On and on it goes, and while nobody sues me, nobody will give me a home loan either because of a “low FICO score.” My age, stable employment history, criminal-free record, and income don’t matter one whit.
The credit bureaus should be regulated out of existence, IMHO.
One thing to get these people to leave you alone is to ask if they are recording the conversation…and immediately request that you want to record the conversation as well. Thus all their bullying, lies, false assertions, failure to provide the names of the original creditors…and their proper identity and contact information – is documentable.
Remember to get their permission to record on the tape as well. Simply state,”I’m going to record this information, if you have an issue with this, then I suggest that you deal with me through the mail.”
Today there is an interesting story at the wsj online.
New Ways Bankers Are Spying On You>
A few interesting revelations.
Considering the practices described in this post- what could go wrong with this “improvement”?
“Credit bureaus can now send daily reports to collection companies when a debtor’s financial status changes—say, if new employment information appears or if a debt starts to decline. A drop in credit use would indicate that the consumer has more capacity to pay and a better chance of repaying other outstanding debts.“
There is a lot more revealed in this story- and it is not really surprising that some of these new schemes are explicitly allowed By the FED as compliance means for newly enacted regulations on credit for consumers.
As with a lot of things you see, there is a lot of reason to think about hiring a lawyer to help with the IRS. I just don’t think there is anything to be said for hiring a national firm that advertises. I’d hire someone with a real recommendation in my community.
Thanks everyone: I have a couple of fights on my hands, one with what I consider a bogus charge and another with *endless* delays just wishing I would go away rather than “take it or leave it.”
I have very little experience with these things, but I am getting the picture. And have at least been able to start the fight.
I can see on the former instance that I never did sign or enter into *anything* that could constitute a contract and that is what has bothered me about this ever since it “showed up.” Which is why I never saw it coming ~ I wasn’t stupid or delusional! But I get dreadful panic attacks …
“Stand up for yourself.” Learning, learning, learning!
Discussions like this are very encouraging to me and help me to feel less alone. Thanks FDL.
… um … probably should have said something like “wishing I would go away because I refuse to ‘take it or leave it’ ” at the end of the first paragraph …