The Supreme Court heard oral argument on the requirement that people have health insurance, the mandate. Transcript and audio version here. One of the issues was the constitutional limits on the powers of Congress under the Commerce Clause. Article I, § 8 gives Congress the power: “To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes.” In recent times, this clause has been given a broad interpretation, but there are limits. Congress can’t give victims of violence against women the right to sue in federal courts, for example, and it can’t regulate carrying guns near schools. Bmaz has a good discussion of why this kind of limit matters to progressives.
Donald Verrilli, Jr., the Solicitor General, who represents the government’s side, went first. Adam Serwer reports that he got off to a rocky start, coughing and hemming and hawing. Justice Alito posed this question: could Congress require healthy young people to buy burial insurance, using the same kind of arguments Verrilli made in his brief. This should have been an easy one for Verrilli. The bad outcome is that healthy people die with no burial insurance, or other assets to pay for burial. That is a matter traditionally left to county governments. It is low cost, and rare. It is much more like the violence against women tort case. It isn’t at all like the health insurance business which involves hundreds of billions of federal tax dollars.
Here is Verilli’s answer:
GENERAL VERRILLI: It’s — I think it’s completely different. The — and the reason is that the burial example is not — the difference is here you are regulating the method by which you are paying for something else — health care — and the insurance requirement I think — I mean, the key thing here is my friends on the other side acknowledge that it is within the authority of Congress under Article I under the commerce power to impose guaranteed-issue and community-rating reforms, to end — to impose a minimum coverage provision. Their argument is just that it has to occur at the point of sale, and –
Eventually Justice Ginsburg rescued Verrilli from his wallowing: “If you’re going to have insurance, that’s how insurance works.” But I doubt anyone could rescue him from the rest of his arguments.
Then it was Paul Clement’s turn, representing the 26 states that filed this case. He complains bitterly that Congress is forcing individuals into the insurance market to subsidize those who already have health insurance to lower the rates. That’s one way to phrase the free rider problem that plagues the current system to the tune of billions of dollars. Justice Ginsburg explains Social Security to Clement.
There was a big fuss about that in the beginning because a lot of people said — maybe some people still do today — I could do much better if the government left me alone. I’d go into the private market, I’d buy an annuity, I’d make a great investment, and they’re forcing me to paying for this Social Security that I don’t want.
But that’s constitutional. So, if Congress could see this as a problem when we need to have a group that will subsidize the ones who are going to get the benefits, it seems to me you’re saying the only way that could be done is if the government does it itself; it can’t involve the private market, it can’t involve the private insurers. If it wants to do this, Security is its model. The government has to do -there has to be government takeover. We can’t have the insurance industry in it. Is that your position?
MR. CLEMENT: No. I don’t think it is, Justice Ginsburg. I think there are other options that are available.
The most straightforward one would be to figure out what amount of subsidy to the insurance industry is necessary to pay for guaranteed issue and community rating. And once we calculate the amount of that subsidy, we could have a tax that’s spread generally through everybody to raise the revenue to pay for that subsidy. That’s the way we pay for most subsidies.
Clement also agrees that Congress could require insurance companies to sell insurance to people at the moment of need. I bet we’d see Clement back at the Supreme Court arguing that these are unconstitutional in short order.
Michael Carvin spoke for the National Federation of Independent Businesses. Before he was asked a question, he said:
In other words, Congress does not have the power to promote commerce. Congress has — Congress has the power to regulate commerce. And if the power exceeds their permissible regulatory authority, then the law is invalid.
That is so obviously wrong that Chief Justice John Roberts couldn’t let it stand.
I doubt that oral argument helped the Court today.




25 Comments

It was sausage before it ever got to the SCOTUS. Single payer universal health care would have been so much simpler but then Obama had to make sure the insurance oligarchs got their healthy cut. Campaign donations and such.
little confused but do not know the law as you do. SS is collected through a tax and the federal govt has the right to pass such laws. this is not that. it is asking not for people to pay a TAX, but to buy insurance from a private company.
If that is right Clements argument to ginsburg should have been what I said above. Am i wrong here
The penalty for NOT purchasing coverage is going to be enforced and collected by the IRS, I believe?
If you DON’T buy coverage, the IRS will put a lien on you and your taxes and extract that money one way or another.
Yet another way to grow government for ENFORCEMENT rather that for service, to the people.
;-)
So, as I get it, the mandate issue is one of taxation wrt the penalty.
As to the precedent set by forcing citizens to BUY something from private entities, that’s the central premise, but the penalty is the nicety being bounced in the overall picture.
I think that’s what’s happening with Ginsberg and SCOTUS . . .
I see NO reason to suspect anything other than the corporate fascist influences will prevail to their benefit, they OWN The SCOTUS, Judiciary, Congress, Executive and the rest of us, too.
Well, that was Ginsburg’s question to Clement: are you saying that Congress should have used Social Security as a model, cutting out the private sector. It’s kind of a trap question. Clement can’t say that he wants to cut out the private sector. So, he responds with an even worse pair of ideas.
Fortunately, oral arguments are mostly theatre. They seldom, if ever, have much impact on appellate decisions.
I used to think the briefs were key. Perhaps in some mundane matters they still are. But, after Bush v Gore, it has been difficult to take the intellectual aspect of Constitutional Law seriously.
Heads up, Verrilli! Ginsberg’s throwin’ you a lifeline! Catch! I have nothing but respect for these people. I know I couldn’t do any better.
the mandate is a done deal, the five fascists on the “court” will strike it down. what they are trying to figure out is how to kill the whole bill. the five corporate puppets will try to justify their newest overreach with some sort of twisted bullshit logic, they’ll probably let Scalia handle the twisted logic, he’s the master.
if they don’t kill the whole bill, then it’s basically all intact except for the mandate. that situation leaves the insurance companies in a world of hurt, no guaranteed 40 million new suckers (customers) but yet they’d have to admit sick people to their plans.
that’s actually the best outcome, strike down the mandate and give our spineless Democratic leadership a gold plated opportunity to negotiate from a position of strength. Anybody want to guess what the Dems would do with a gift like that ?
so far, single payer seems to be winning this battle.
Looked over the transcript pretty quickly. Don’t think carvin did badly.
So let’s see if Obama has the guts to get lemons and make lemonade. Supposing he loses the mandate – will he then push for Medicare for All?
But really, the Roberts court isn’t going to roll over for their corporate masters? Hell would freeze over before they ruled against the mandate.
Sorry, but Congress does not have the authority to force you into commerce.
Cart.
Horse.
“But really, the Roberts court isn’t going to roll over for their corporate masters?”
I would presume the health insurance companies represent only a few among many “corporate masters”. I am not persuaded that all will think that upholding the mandate is in their best interest. If it is upheld, Congress could very well impose a mandate on them.
Truer words are rarely spoken. The much ballyhooed oral argument before the SCOTUS is and has long been a relics – one so decrepit that no longer serves that function well either.
The “oral argument” is to SCOTUS decision-making as the popular vote is to President making.
Ginsberg didn’t rescue Vermicelli because she was comparing apples to oranges; SS and health insurance. SS is funded by a TAX – this insurance crap will be funded by a penalty. If Congress would have implemented a similar tax on a national scale and it be deducted as a payroll tax, similar to SS, this would not be an issue.
Are you kiding me? Obama stand up for something??
Just remember that if it goes down, it is a Heritage Foundation framed plan, a law written by a former VP Government Relations for Wellpoint and shoved on Congress by the chair of the Senate Finance Committee, and bought and paid for by the provider’s and insurance companies’ lobbyists. And it is a model of the passion for public-private partnership corruption.
The guaranteed coverage part is already benefitting folks who have the money to pay the high premiums. Where will they go politically on this?
This could be one more interesting piece of what is coming up to be a very interesting election year.
The most interesting outcome could be if a conservative court said that this law was unconstitutional and unseverable and wondered aloud why the Congress didn’t go for Medicare for All, which is clearly constitutional. Like I said, those folks who are already benefiting from guaranteed coverage are key political players in this. What will their advocates do?
.
Huh? Fascists just love mandates.
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The Militia Act(s) of 1792 required (mandated) males to purchase muskets, ammunition and bayonet. It was never overturned by SCOTUS.
I think Carvin may have annoyed Kennedy with his strident and overtly political arguments. Check out Lyle Dennison at Scotusblog.
The hearing yesterday didn’t turn the ACA into sausage. It already was sausage. This is what happens in current climate when everybody has to be pleased.
I believe Medicare was up an running in less than a year. The government had to setup a medical insurance operation from scratch and did a pretty good job of it. All the ACA does is build on the current insurance system and it takes 4 years to get it up an running. What a JOKE! The only purpose was to give the insurance industry more time to undermine the law. Funny thing is that the one thing they actually want, the mandate, is the mechanism that may kill the law.
If these idiots weren’t so corrupt we’d have single payer right now. All that had to be done is to change one sentence in the Medicare act so that coverage begins at conception and case closed.
SOCTUS is such a joke. These clowns find some justification to do what ever they want. Scalia found a reading of the Commerce clause to prevent a private citizen from growing medical marijuana and can’t find anything in the clause to justify a health insurance mandate? They knew the Bush v Gore decision was so bad that they wrote in the decision that it was a one time deal and did not set precedent. Ever hear of a Supreme Court decision that did not set precedent? I sure can’t remember one. The only reason for doing that is that if that occurs again the Court can try to influence the election to the majority’s liking.
I’m in favor of a change in how the court operates. They need term limits. I’m in favor of replacing the longest serving justice each year. Secondly, to overturn an act of Congress it should take at least a 2/3 or 3/4 majority. There is nothing in the Constitution that allows the court to overturn an act of Congress. This is a power they just decided to give to themselves. These clowns are appointed they should not have the power to thwart an act of Congress under the fig leaf that they are calling balls and strikes.
I would like to see some President stand up to these clowns and refuse to recognize one of their ridiculous decisions. What exactly can these idiots do about it? Nothing. Fifty years ago the public supported the Court. Today, about 75% of the public believes they are political. I doubt there would be much public blacklash, especially if the measure is popular. That would put these clowns on notice that their function is to interpret laws, not to make them.
Single payer is dead, and the looming 5-4 decision against Obamacare should be a warning shot to those that want to “fundamentally change” this country.
It ain’t gonna happen.
You had your chance and even with all the backroom bribes, and reconciliation, and the political capital that was burned, Obama’s crowning achievement is going down in flames.
His legacy will be one of complete and utter failure.
So falwed is this law, that the SG couldn’t even answer the most basic argument against the heathcare law.
He couldn’t, because you can’t–the logic does not work.
There are no limiting factors when it comes to the governments desire to control and suppress the people’s freedom.
“If the government can force you to buy health insurance, what can’t they force you to do or buy?”
Got broccoli?
You’re comparing apples and orangutangs. The Constitution explicitly gives Congress power “for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia”, there’s no analogous clause for health insurance policyholders.
What complete BS!
Let’s grant your wish and let this bill be overturned. What’s next? You now have about 50MM uninsured in this country. There will be nothing to hold down medical cost. That means in 5 years medical costs will double and insurance will also double. Last year medical costs only went up 3%, but the average insurance premium went up 10%. As the Republicans continue to endorse policies that gut the middle class, forcing more and more into poverty, the number of uninsured will skyrocket. Which in turn forces medical costs and insurance premiums even higher.
Medical costs in the US are 16% of our GDP. In the countries with socialized medicine they only make up 8% of there GDP. There outcomes are at least as good as sometimes better. That is unsustainable and its only a matter before the medical system comes under government control.
The problem with Medicare is not Medicare itself. Medicare is much more efficient than the private insurance industry. Why do you think they fought against the public option? They can’t compete. The problem is the rising cost of health care. The Republicans think the free market will solve this. We’ve got free markets now and it does nothing to control costs.
The Republican is to let insurance companies sell you some crappy policy that covers nothing and as soon as you get sick you go bankrupt. Of course, the insurance companies will make a bundle, but that’s the “free” market at work.
So keep waving your freedom flag. Hope you’re satisfied with your principles when you have to pay a big medical bill and don’t have the cash.
yeah, fascists working for their corporate masters, the mandate is the weakest part of the law, thus the first point of attack. the insurance industry wants this law struck down completely, the court’s fascists are doing the bidding of the health insurance industry. that’s called fascism.
Why do you hate the Heritage Foundation and Mitt Romney? It’s their plan, after all. You’re a Republican, you should love it! The insurance industry has traditionally been a big GOP donor institutionally; even Obama’s offering them up this gift in the form of the mandate hasn’t changed their abiding love for the GOP.
If the mandate goes, the door is then opened to Medicare for All — which is what Teddy Kennedy originally wanted and proposed when he set the latest effort to reform health care in motion, only to see it hijacked by industry lobbyists.
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