Introduction
We already know that two independent forensic audiologists have examined a recording of a 911 call by a woman who reported a struggle going on behind her residence. A long high-pitched scream for help that is audible in the background terminates abruptly with what sounds like a single shot.
Using different analytical methods the two experts have compared the scream to a police recording of George Zimmerman’s voice when he called a police non-emergency number approximately 10 to 15 minutes before the shooting to report a suspicious person in his neighborhood.
We now know that person was Trayvon Martin, who was walking back to his father’s girlfriend’s residence, whom he was visiting with his father, after walking to a nearby 711 store to purchase some Skittles and Arizona Iced Tea.
Both experts excluded George Zimmerman as the person screaming in the background to a reasonable scientific certainty. They have not compared the scream to a recording of Trayvon Martin’s voice, presumably because they do not have a recording of his voice.
Trayvon Martin’s mother has identified her son as the person screaming.
Since there is a witness who claims to have seen the struggle between Zimmerman and Martin with Martin on top and Zimmerman lying on his back in the grass yelling for help, there is an apparent conflict in the evidence between the eyewitness’s statement and the two expert opinions. I say “apparent conflict” because the witness did not observe the fatal shot. He locked his door, went upstairs, and when he looked out the window, he saw Martin lying face down in the grass and not moving.
Because the witness did not observe who initiated the physical confrontation or the fatal shot, he cannot tell us who was the aggressor or where Martin and Zimmerman were positioned and what Martin was doing when Zimmerman fired the fatal shot. This missing information is important because, under Florida law, Zimmerman’s claim of self-defense must be rejected, if he was the aggressor, or if he was not in danger of being killed or suffering serious bodily injury when he fired the fatal shot.
For example, during the time period while the witness was in transit between locking his door, going upstairs, and looking out the window, Zimmerman, who outweighed Martin by 40 pounds, according to Wikipedia, might have locked his arms and legs around Martin, rolled over on top straddling him, and then pulled his gun out of the holster and fired the fatal shot. He might even have separated from Martin and fired the fatal shot. Neither scenario would justify using deadly force in self-defense.
Let us now consider what other forensic evidence to see what it might tell us about the relative positions of Zimmerman and Martin when Zimmerman drew his gun and fired.
What Can Forensics Add To This Investigation?
I would want to review the autopsy report and interview the medical examiner who conducted the autopsy to find out whether he noticed any injuries other than the fatal gunshot. For example, did Martin have any abrasions on his hands and fingers.
I would have a lot of questions for the medical examiner regarding the nature of the gunshot wound and Martin’s clothing.
For example, the weapon was a black Kel Tek 9 mm PF9 semiautomatic. The bullet would have been discharged when Zimmerman pulled the trigger causing the hammer to strike the primer igniting the smokeless powder in the casing producing rapidly expanding gas (consisting of carbon monoxide, nitrogen dioxide, carbon dioxide and other gases) that ejects the bullet, burning and unburned gunpowder (the burn always is incomplete), and trace amounts of the primer that contains heavy metals, including lead, antimony, and bismuth. Depending on the nature of the wound and the presence of all, some, or none of these materials, a qualified forensic firearms expert can determine how far away the gun barrel was when the shot was fired.
The gases, including the heavy metals, and some smoke from unburned but gaseous carbon, are projected only a few inches. The effects of the gas produce what are called contact or near-contact wounds that are characterized by variable skin lacerations or tears from the expanding gases that rip the skin apart and stippling, which is blackening skin from the unburned smokeless gunpowder that is propelled out the barrel of the gun with the bullet by the rapidly expanding gas.
As the distance of the gun barrel to the skin increases, the effect of the gas diminishes and only the unburned powder and bullet are capable of penetrating the skin. Stippling is present when the gun barrel is 0.5 centimeter to 1 meter from the wound. The pattern gets larger as the distance increases. So-called distant wounds do not cause tearing or stippling.
Based on Zimmerman’s statement, I would expect Martin to have had a contact or near contact wound with skin laceration or tearing caused by the explosive gases entering the wound expanding and tearing the skin. I also would expect to see some stippling or unburned smokeless powder. If I did not see evidence of either in the wound or clothing fibers, I would conclude that the gun barrel was more than a meter away, which is at odds with Zimmerman’s statement in which he claimed that he shot Martin as Martin was on top and hitting him.
Given Zimmerman’s statement, I also would expect to see high velocity blood spatter (mist-like spray of blood drops about 1 mm in diameter) or blowback on the barrel of Zimmerman’s gun, his shooting hand, and the sleeve of his jacket.
Absence of skin tearing, stippling, and high velocity blowback or blood spatter would seriously undermine a claim of self-defense.



52 Comments

The prosecutor handling the case has announced that she will not present the case to the grand jury.
This does not mean that she has decided not to prosecute Zimmerman.
Not sure what it means, but will let y’all know more as soon as I know more.
Here’s a CNN report about the Special Prosecutor’s decision.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/10/justice/florida-teen-shooting/
Meanwhile, an unknown individual or individuals fired shots into an unoccupied parked police vehicle in the neighborhood where Trayvon Martin was killed.
The impression I get is that (perhaps because of police incompetence or malfeasance), not enough evidence was collected to allow a first-degree charge to stand in Florida, but that a second-degree charge is likely.
If the special prosecutor finds self defense do Martin’s parents have a right to the report. Another consideration would be entrance and exit wound or wounds. There were two shots fired by some accounts where and what way did the second bullet enter and exit ?
It’s possible that Trayvon attacked his stalker until he saw or felt the gun then turned and ran. Good forensics would answer these questions based on factual evidence.
Also GZ shows no visible blood on his clothes in the Police station which doesn’t jive with him shooting Trayvon while his head was being pounded into the pavement.
Is it true there would be a Grand Jury for first degree murder or has that charge been ruled out already?
Seems like a way for everybody to get their story straight. Can Trayvon’s parents demand to view that tape also? Who has that tape?
There is no doubt in my mind that Zimmer was the aggressor and a murderer. He stalked that young man and decided to engage him despite police advice, period.
And the fight between them, however true or dubious is meaningless. I tell my kids not to lay down like sheep if someone is trying to harm you, defend yourself. Zimmer’s bullshit statemensts go nowhere with me.
First degree murder generally requires proof of premeditation and while there is no minimum length of time that must be proven to establish premeditation, the accused must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt to have formed intent to kill, reflected on that decision, and decided to go ahead and do it. This may be proven by circumstantial evidence that shows that the accused had an opportunity to reflect. In the typical case, this is proven by evidence showing that was there was a pause or break in the chain of events that led to the killing.
Proving premeditation in this case probably would be difficult, even if the evidence establishes that Trayvon died from a distant gunshot wound (i.e., no skin laceration or stippling and no unburned smokeless gunpowder in his clothing) and if I were the prosecutor, I likely would be trying to decide whether to charge Zimmerman with an intentional heat-of-passion-type murder (which is second degree murder in most states), or negligent homicide.
Negligent homicide in this case would require proof that Zimmerman failed to realize that shooting Trayvon would not be justified in self-defense and his failure to realize that was grossly negligent.
With all due respect to realitychecker, with whom I often agree, I do not believe Zimmerman has a viable claim of self-defense. He outweighed Trayvon by 40 pounds and Trayvon was unarmed and had no reason to attack him. Even if he did attack Zimmerman, I don’t believe Zimmerman was ever in danger of being killed or suffering serious bodily injury. Under those circumstances, Zimmerman’s use of deadly force was not justified.
I think it’s far more likely that Zimmerman initiated physical contact and Trayvon was defending himself, which he had a legal right to do since Zimmerman was not a law enforcement officer. That would make Zimmerman the aggressor and an aggressor cannot claim self-defense.
I think Zimmerman lost his temper when Trayvon resisted and he killed him. That’s a heat of passion intentional murder.
Only one shot was fired, according to Wiki, which states that an earlier report of two shots was mistaken.
The special prosecutor is primarily concerned with deciding whether she can convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman did not kill Trayvon in self-defense. For example, she might not seek to charge him even if she believes he did not act in self-defense but she does not believe she can prove it.
Yes, Trayvon’s parents can sue Zimmerman for wrongful death, even if no criminal charges are filed against him. I don’t know about Florida, but many states have statutes that allow victims of crimes, or their survivors to have a full copy of the police investigation file to use in a civil case.
Officer Timothy Smith noted in his report that the back of Zimmerman’s jacket was wet with some grass on it and he was bleeding from a head wound and his nose. An EMT person treated Zimmerman’s wounds at the scene and the police video confirms that Zimmerman had an abrasion of some sort on the top of his head. Zimmerman declined to be taken to a hospital and I believe his wounds were minor and did not justify the use of deadly force in self-defense, even if he wasn’t the aggressor.
Police often coax a suspect in a homicide investigation to reenact what happened. This is a standard investigatory tool and it’s often at odds with forensic crime-scene evidence and quite useful in disproving the defendant’s version of what happened.
I generally agree with your opinion of what happened, except I don’t believe Zimmerman got out of his SUV and went looking for Trayvon intending to kill him. I think he was trying to find and detain him for police. I think he lost his temper and killed Trayvon when he resisted.
Why would he have called the police and asked for an officer to be dispatched to the scene, if he still had to find him? Why risk having the officer arrive in time to witness a murder.
For that matter, why risk killing Trayvon out in the open in a crowded neighborhood at approximately 7:15 pm on a Sunday evening?
The prosecutor has not announced that she has ruled anything out.
She merely cancelled the grand jury session that was scheduled for today and is not finished with her review of the investigation.
I believe she plans to interview Zimmerman next week in the presence of his attorney. Apparently, they have consented to the interview. That could turn out to be a big mistake, if he says something that conflicts with something important that he said earlier, or with the forensic evidence.
I wonder, for example, if he would be willing to reenact his pleas for help so that they could be recorded and compared to the screams on the 911 tape? That’s something that I would certainly be considering asking him to do, if I were the special prosecutor.
Normally wouldn’t the police check the gun for missing rounds?
Exactly. Why risk any of this unless your intent was to engage and possibly have alibis. He already gave a description so he could have simply let it go. His life, limb, property, was not threatened. Nor did he have reason to suspect anything nefarious occured. Of course being black you are always suspect.
Ha ha ha Georges Attorneys just dropped him like a hot potato.
Seems he wants to play his own lawyer since that playing a cop went sour.
RE: Special Prosecutor Angela Corey’s decision dismissing the grand jury today.
Apparently, under Florida law, a prosecutor only is required to seek a grand jury indictment, if she seeks to charge a suspect with first degree murder. Corey’s decision probably means she has decided not to charge him with first degree murder.
Yes, of course, and they probably still have his gun and may have sent it to the firearms unit at the state crime lab requesting an analysis.
They also should have kept his clothes for trace evidence analysis. I am specifically referring to blood spatter and gunshot residue analysis. That would be standard procedure in a case like this.
I don’t think anything is probable in this case.
Watch his Lawyers press conference dumping him over @ raw Story.
Looks like the guy has the brain of a cucumber.
Did they drop him, or did he fire them?
If they dropped out of the case, it might be due to his failure to come up with a retainer.
I’ll check it out.
Thanks.
Tuning in late due to a migraine, but this is fascinating stuff. No way did the kid set down his Skittles and decide to attack Zimmerman out of the blue. rec’d. BTW, Mason (Fred) and I met in a Forensics class he was teaching at University of Washington. Fascinating team of teachers: forensic pathologist Donald Reay, MD, blood spatter expert/textbook author Stuart James, a teacher from Tennessee’s body farm…good stuff.
He called the prosecutor and did and interview w/ sean hannity against their advice . Also he hasn’t returned their calls and e-mails since Sunday.
Mason, is it true that Zimmerman was allowed to leave the police station the night of the shooting wearing the clothes he had on during the altercation/shooting of Trayvon? Was Zimmerman’s weapon logged in as evidence? I heard that he left the station carrying the murder weapon. Also, I heard an unsubstantiated rumor that Trayvon may have made a 911 call himself – how would we know if that was true or not? BTW, does the Sanford PD have Trayvon’s clothes, bag of Skittles, can of iced tea, and his cell phone?
Well, well, well.
(h/t to tjbs for informing me about the press conference)
Zimmerman’s lawyers held a press conference earlier today to announce that they were no longer representing him because they have lost contact with him and have been unable to contact him since Sunday.
They announced that he has contacted Special Prosecutor Angela Corey and Sean Hannity. Regarding the contact with Hannity, they said he had disclosed new information to him that he has not previously disclosed. When they contacted Hannity, he refused to disclose what Zimmerman told him. They said Zimmerman is emotionally unstable and suffering from PTSD caused by the shooting and its aftermath.
They said they still believe he shot Martin in self-defense (but what else would they say?) and they will resume representing him, if he will contact them.
The attorneys said they do not know where he is and have not met with him in person.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/04/10/george-zimmerman-has-gone-rogue-again/
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/04/10/george-zimmermans-attorneys-quit-we-have-lost-contact-with-him/
TRANSLATION: Zimmerman has lost confidence in his attorneys and has rejected their advice. By independently contacting the prosecutor and Sean Hannity, of all people, he has demonstrated a remarkable capacity for unknowingly slitting his own throat.
I will leave it to y’all to speculate regarding the significance of his choice of Sean Hannity in whom to confide. None of you need my assistance to play the what-does-that-say-about-him game.
Yikes!
Edit: I neglected to mention that an ethical prosecutor would have refused to speak with him about his case and would have told him to contact his attorneys. I imagine that is exactly what Angela Corey did and I also think she likely contacted his attorneys after the call to let them know what had happened.
Hannity may be in an awkward legal position. He is not an attorney and cannot assert the attorney-client privilege refusing to answer questions regarding what Zimmerman told him.
I do not know if Florida has a journalist’s privilege that Hannity can assert, but if he cannot assert such a privilege (there is no federal one and there is an ongoing federal investigation regarding a possible civil rights violation), he must answer questions put to him before a grand jury or go to jail for contempt of the grand jury.
Notice to all Lookie Lous:
Zimmerman is now a slow-motion train wreck.
Time to pop some corn, sit back, and watch.
Enjoy the show!
I do not know the answers to your questions, but I’m pretty certain that Trayvon did not call 911 because his girlfriend called him at 7:12 pm and was on the phone with him when the fight started.
I wrote about that call in my previous article about this case — the one that contains the two updates.
For additional information, please go to wikipedia for the shooting of Trayvon Martin:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trayvon_Martin
Here’s a link to Mother Jones which has a series of articles about this case, including one about this latest development.
http://motherjones.com/politics/2012/03/what-happened-trayvon-martin-explained
The Christian Science Monitor has an article about Zimmerman and the website he started over the weekend.
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2012/0410/Trayvon-Martin-case-George-Zimmerman-speaks-out-via-website-video
Great links, Mason, especially the MoJo link – it has a trove of documents in pdf format as well as an excellent timeline. Thanks.
The newest development in the case is truly bizarre – his attorneys hold a press conference and drop Zimmerman as a client, hint at his mental instability, and suggest they have no idea where he is! Apparently the State Attorney was watching it and has issued a “Media Alert” informing us that she’ll hold a press conference within 72 hrs. Does this mean she’ll be bringing charges? Since he hasn’t been charged yet Zimmerman is free to travel – is he even in the US?
Guess I need to make a run to the store for more popcorn, per your suggestion.
Don’t wear a hoodie!
When you get back, check out the video at Mother Jones of the neighborhood with an analysis of Zimmerman’s story by Joy-Ann Reid, and the video interview of Frank Taafe, Zimmerman’s friend and former neighborhood watchman who discusses the problems they were having with neighborhood burglaries.
He told Soledad O’Brien,
Meanwhile, a group of armed neo-nazis has descended on Sanford to protect white people by patrolling the streets. FOX News initially called them a civil rights group.
Do you know of anyplace where a killing during a purported altercation between persons unknown to each other, not involving another felony (Robbery, rape, home invasion, etc.) can be grounds for a judicial decision of capital murder?
Not even in Texas.
Why is this being billed as a bloodthirsty hunting rather than a tragedy of errors?
As I have suggested before, Zimmerman appears to be autism-spectrum.
We do not know what happened, I’m referring here to the poster who said “There is no doubt in my mind that Zimmer was the aggressor and a murderer.” None at all? Fortunately folks with a judicial temperament will be dealing with this tragedy, not that poster.
Two innocent men had a conflict, one is dead. That by no means means that the survivor is guilty.
the medical examiner who performed the autopsy was on lawrence o’donnell awhile back and said trayvon’s body did not show signs of a struggle, e.g., no wounds or scratches on his hands. as to the gun, the police do not have it; zimmerman does. the police, apparently, did not collect any evidence, did not cover zimmerman’s shoes when he was brought in for an interview, etc.
“Two innocent men had a conflict, one is dead.”
afterthought @32: you lecture others saying we don’t know what happened but you know that zimmerman is an “innocent” man? the two “innocent men” — one of whom was not a man at all but a kid — only had a conflict because one of them was following the other; the other was minding his own business and heading home. the aggressor here is zimmerman and we know that because of his own words on the 911 tape and his disregard when he was told to stay out of it. “these @#$%&*(* always get away with it” and this time he wasn’t going to let that happen although he had not seen trayvon commiting a crime or attempting to commit a crime.
“…which he had a legal right to do since Zimmerman was not a law enforcement officer.” Huh?
Mason, that’s the scariest thing I’ve heard in a while. One has a right to defend onesself against even the Secret Service when faced with a personal and unwarranted attack therefrom; and it’s the victim’s call. It’s a hard sell, but only because the system is inclined to take the officer’s side. Like here.
wait. you mean FDL is inclined to take the officer’s side? lol. do you mean this case in particular? I think not. do you mean in all cases FDL is inclined to take an officer’s side? ROFLMAO.
I used my mad google skillz to learn that Hannity lives in NY so he might invoke NY shield laws?
http://www.citmedialaw.org/new-york-civil-rights-law-article-7-section-79-h
Here is Florida’s law regarding journalist’s privilege:
http://www.citmedialaw.org/florida-evidence-code-section-90-5015
sharper legal minds than mine might be able to discern what Hannity must submit to.
Zimmerman was also a bouncer at illegal rave parties ( meaning drugs were probably present) if he can’t handle a kid he outweighs by 40 or more pounds then he is lying he would never have worked at illegal rave’s also does Zimmerman have a drug history?
He certainly worked the drug scene at those illegal raves.
Of course not. Like in this case; where the local authorities took the officer’s side. Like letting him leave police HQ with his weapon.
Cheeze man! Are your antennae quivering. We’re on the same side, but it seems like you are looking for somebody to dis. You noticed that there were two very different interpretations of that “like here” remark, and chose to go with the one that gave you an excuse to “ROFLAMO.” Hope you got off on it.
Hate to wade into this, but that story sincerely appears to be untrue, as the Legal Insurrectionist pointed out a couple days ago.
Yes, yes, all cry: Of course that’s what the fascist police would say!!!
But, I’ve been watching the Sanford Herald Paper’s website, no news like that, a quick search of the archives showed nothing. Lots of websites seem to be correcting their initial buy-in to the story.
The amount of gunpowder residue on Trayvon’s clothes I think could tell us far away he was when shot. No bruises on Trayvon’s hands means he did not hit Zimmerman.
That throws the Zimmerman Trayvon attacked me story out the window. That suggests that Zimmerman inflicted his own injuries do we have any independent confirmation of those injuries?
Local papers bury racism and crime stories if they report them at all to prevent real estate prices from dropping. I don’t know if the Nazi story is true but I do know my local State of Illinois Rep Cal Skinner a GOPer was not outed as a child molester by the local paper (his wife fled the freaking country with their kid ) until after he lost his reelection campaign.
Nope. No one has a right to resist an unlawful arrest. If they do, they can be charged with assaulting a police officer.
Since George Zimmerman was not a police officer, Trayvon Martin was under no obligation to obey any command issued by Zimmerman and he was legally entitled to use reasonably necessary force to resist and overcome any physical effort by Zimmerman to restrain or subdue him.
And, if Martin started to get the better of him, Zimmerman would not have been legally justified in using deadly force — assuming he was the initial aggressor.
Why? Because an aggressor cannot claim self-defense.
There is an important exception. The person attacked is limited to using reasonably necessary to force to prevent an assault. If they use more force than is reasonably necessary to prevent an assault, the original aggressor can use force to defend against the excessive use of force.
These legal rules blur in the heat of battle, obviously, and jurors are generally reluctant to convict anyone who uses excessive force to resist an aggressor’s use of force, unless the response was way over the top. Jurors are not sympathetic toward aggressors and figure they deserve what they get for starting a fight.
An aggressor who uses deadly force to defend against a person who used excessive force to resist the aggressor’s assault is generally going to be SOL unless there is absolutely no question that the person used extremely excessive force and was on the verge of killing the aggressor when the aggressor killed him.
Although there remains some doubt regarding the nature and extent of Zimmerman’s injuries, given what little we know about his physical condition that night, I do not believe he had to use deadly force to prevent being killed or to prevent suffering serious bodily injury.
Therefore, on the basis of what little I know, I believe he was not legally justified in using deadly force to defend himself. And when I say that, I am assuming he confronted Martin, attempted to detain him using physical force, Martin resisted, they struggled, and Zimmerman shot him.
Thanks for pointing that out.
My source for that story was Mother Jones.
I hear that, things; our newspaper now may as well have been written by the CoC. Editor passes our Occupy most Saturdays; hasn’t ever been curious enough to stop by, lol!
And…I just clicked on the Herald’s crime beat buttons…redirected. ;oP
But the story seems to have originated with the Miaminewtimes, and the photos are armed skinheads on the AZ/Mexico border, not in Sanford. But nothing in the Orlando Sentinel, though the Miami Herald loved the story. It’s news, pot-stirring sells, is my thing, and it’s hard to know which news to trust, so we might thus be inclined to go with what seems likely to us. Dunno; tough subject area.
It was everywhere, seriously.
Regarding the claim that there were no bruises on Trayvon’s hands:
First, I believe the source of that information may be the person at the funeral home who prepared Trayvon Martin’s body for burial, rather than the Medical Examiner who performed the autopsy. I don’t believe the autopsy Report has been released.
Second, I would not expect any visible bruising on Trayvon’s body, no matter what happened because bleeding stops when the heart stops beating. There was not sufficient time for any significant or noticeable subcutaneous or under the skin bleeding to occur before death. The ME would have had to cut into areas of possible bleeding and expose the tissues under the skin to determine if any bruising or bleeding had occurred. Even then, no such evidence may have been visible, regardless of what had occurred.
Regarding your question about confirmation of Zimmerman’s claimed injuries: Check the video at the police station in the salley port when Zimmerman arrived.
Mother Jones also reported this story.
There is an issue about the police video that MSNBC recently aired. The abrasions that were visible on Zimmerman’s head after the police video was enhanced and shown by ABC News were not visible on the MSNBC video.
The issue raised by ABC is whether, given MSNBC’s alteration of Zimmerman’s call to the Sanford Police Department non-emergency number, did the network alter the police video to blur the abrasions?
Lord luv a duck; no wonder I don’t rally want a piece of this. Photo-shopping videos. Cripes.
I was musing about trusting sources, and got to thinkin’ about the online ‘exposes’ that Juan Cole was, or had been, workin’ for the CIA. (They surfaced when Juan was soooo gung-ho for R2P Libya.) Can’t say the stories influenced my take that Cole was just wrong. ;o)
Gotta get back to the taxes; time fer Uncle Sam to screw us, and Gawd, do I love it (not so sure about the mistah…)! Might even write a diary if I survive another day of form-filling; just dunno if I could really bring Teh Funny, know what I mean? ;o)
After you left last night there were a number of questions for you wendy. You know the thread….
Goodness, gunsbeforebutter; thank you so much for the invitation. I’m afraid I’ll have to decline, though, as if I added participation over yonder at Tbogg’s house to getting the taxes done…I might just blow a fookin’ gasket, and no one would want that for me (she said hopefully).
And yes; I worked on them for a number of hours yesterday, and the combination was not healthy then, either. Saw your own question about ‘tell me who is a viable third party candidate?’, and my short answer would be: No third party will be viable until enough us quit LOTE-voting, and utterly reject the corrupt duopoly, which parties have barely any between. Dems may kill us more slowly, but it’s not a recommendation; we also know exactly all the crimes Obama has to his discredit, how he has failed to prosecute banking fraud, allow any meaningful financial reform to be passed into law, hampered regulators, robbed the poor, enabled austerity cuts, thereby helping to break the social contract government has been obliged to honor since FDR’s days…and whole lot more.
It comes down to whether or not you can morally and ethically vote for such a worm of a man, or have a bit of patience for the next election cycle by which time we may have proven third party candidates canbe viable. Personally, I’m banking on the democracy movement totally overtaking the existing governmental structure, but nonetheless, I decided after Obama’s first six months in office that I am ethically unable to vote for him.
Hope I won’t be back; gotta date with the IRS.
And sorry, Mason; didn’t mean to hijack your thread.
I apologize for dragging this out like this. I just got home.
You are, of course, completely uncontested on the matter of arrest. I didn’t say a thing about arrest; legal or otherwise. I said attack.
Thanks for the nice explanation tho.