Cross posted from Frederick Leatherman Law Blog
For reasons that follow, I believe the forensic firearm evidence will solve the Zimmerman case.
Many of you have focused instead on Zimmerman’s decision to follow Martin contrary to the dispatcher’s request and concluded that he was the aggressor. I do not believe that conclusion is supported by the evidence.
If I were representing Zimmerman, I would argue that he was not ordered to stop pursuing Martin. The specific admonition from the dispatcher, after Zimmerman admitted that he was following Martin, was, “We don’t need you to do that.”
Plus, the dispatcher was not a police officer with a badge. He did not have the authority of a badge.
Therefore, I do not believe Zimmerman ignored an explicit police order and I do not see any unlawful conduct in carrying his cell phone while following Martin at a respectful distance to keep an eye on him in order to inform the police officer where he was after the police officer arrived in the neighborhood. Recall that he suggested the dispatcher tell the officer to call him on his cell phone when he arrived.
He had a license to carry so he did not violate any law by doing that.
Of course, a neighborhood watch coordinator from the Sanford Police Department had previously advised Zimmerman and others not to carry guns and not to contact suspects to avoid tragedies like the one that ended in Trayvon Martin’s death. This warning and the dispatcher’s admonition are relevant to consider in determining Zimmerman’s intent when he followed Martin. A jury might well reach the same conclusion that many readers have reached; namely, that Zimmerman was the aggressor because he knew he was not supposed to follow Martin.
Then again, it might not.
Zimmerman’s version of what happened is that he lost Martin and decided to return to his vehicle. As he was walking toward it, Martin approached him from behind his left shoulder and asked, “Why are you following me?”
Zimmerman said he responded, “What are you doing here?”
He claims Martin punched him in the nose, knocking him down on his back, and then jumped on top of him and started slamming his head into the sidewalk.
He also claims he yelled for help but no one responded.
Zimmerman says Martin saw his holstered gun as he was reaching for it and said, “One of us is going to die tonight.”
They struggled for the gun. Zimmerman won and shot him once in the chest.
This would be self-defense, if true.
Martin’s girlfriend says when she called him at 7:12 pm, which is verified by cell phone records, Martin told her that some guy was following him. She told him to run. Then she heard Martin say, “Why are you following me?”
She heard someone else say, “Why are you here?
Then she heard sounds that sounded like a struggle with Martin’s headset being ripped off his head and the phone went dead. She called him back but got no answer.
She confirms the two statements that Zimmerman said were made. Her opinion of what was going on after that may or may not be accurate.
A neighbor named John told the police that he saw two people struggling on the ground. The man on top was hitting the man lying on his back. The man lying on his back was wearing a red sweater and calling for help. Zimmerman was wearing a jacket with red sleeves.
John closed and locked his patio door. Then he went upstairs to a bedroom and looked out the window. The man who had been on his back yelling for help was standing and the man who had been hitting him was lying face down in the grass, apparently dead.
Therefore, he neither saw who threw the first punch, nor the relative positions of the two individuals and what they were doing when Zimmerman fired the fatal shot. We do not know how much time passed after he closed and locked the patio door until he looked out the upstairs bedroom window and we do not know how the struggle progressed. Apparently, he did not even hear the shot.
During a 911 call by another neighbor to report a fight between two men in her backyard, a loud terrified scream for help can be heard in the backyard. The scream ends suddenly with a loud gunshot that is followed by silence.
Without knowing how much time passed before John looked out his upstairs bedroom window, we cannot conclude if this scream is the same yell for help that John heard. Moreover, without questioning John, I cannot say with any confidence that he correctly identified Zimmerman as the person calling for help, even though Zimmerman claimed to have called for help.
I am inclined to believe that it is not the same scream, due to the time lapse and because Martin’s mother has identified her son as the person screaming for help.
Also, two independent forensic audiologists using different methodologies to clean-up the recorded 911 call (i.e., filter out static and background noise) have compared the scream to Zimmerman’s voice on his call to the police. To a reasonable scientific certainty, they excluded him as the source of the scream for help.
Nevertheless, Zimmerman and his father have identified him as the person calling for help.
Let’s temporarily disregard what everyone said and focus on that 911 call with the scream for help in the background.
I have three questions:
1. How could a mother not know her son’s terrified scream for help?
2. Why would a man with a gun in his hand be desperately screaming for help and suddenly stop screaming at the precise instant the shot is fired?
3. How could two experts working independently of each other using different forensic methodologies and reaching the same conclusion to a reasonable scientific certainty be wrong?
Finally, consider the shot itself. It was fired from an intermediate distance, which is anywhere from 0.5 centimeters to 1 meter. I am confident the forensic firearm experts have already performed the standard experiments that I have described elsewhere in a comment on my previous article, but we do not yet know the results.
They will be able to say to a reasonable scientific certainty where within that range the gun was when the fatal shot was fired.
Using a steel rod and a photograph, the Assistant Medical Examiner who performed the autopsy will be able demonstrate the path of the bullet after it entered the body. The firearms expert will be able make a mark on the steel rod in that photograph showing the location of the muzzle when Zimmerman fired the fatal shot.
When we see that demonstration, we will likely know if Zimmerman lied or told the truth.
Given what he said, I was expecting a contact or near contact wound. Depending on the fine tuning, an intermediate or close range wound is consistent with a scenario in which the two individuals have separated.
That contradicts Zimmerman’s story because in that situation his use of deadly force would not be necessary since he would not be in imminent danger of death or grievous bodily injury.
Stay tuned.




134 Comments

“One of us is going to die tonight?”
In my opinion, they need to lock Zimmerman up just for coming up with that corny bullshit lie.
“I was expecting a contact or near contact wound.”
Like 2 to 4 inches, which is what NBC is reporting?
http://video.today.msnbc.msn.com/today/47458356
I’ll want confirmation of that from another source, of course. I hear that Martin’s family is pressing for a release of all documents instead of these “strategic leaks,” so maybe we’ll be able to see the actual report soon.
Thanks for this, Mason. Pretty straightforward breakdown of the facts as we know them today.
I wasn’t aware of the scientific voice analyses. That’s interesting stuff. Sounds like it will end up being key stuff at the trial.
Heard about this piece at the NYT; thought you and others might like to read it (I haven’t and won’t).
But I’m staying out of the fray on this case. Too many mountain goats leaping from rock to rock for my sensibilities; too much truthiness brought to bear. ;o)
Thank you for your continued analysis of this case. It does a great job of laying out the key facts and issues, and making them clear to the readers. Your coverage is valued here!
Really appreciate your reporting Mason. This case is so full of emotion, so it’s great to get to the nitty gritty.
The so verry sad part is that nobody had to die that night. And for that George Zimmerman is squarely to blame, no matter how it comes out in the legal system.
I had the same reaction. Movie stuff, not real life.
Movie line, or at least very similar, and indistinguishable in substance, from the line in this:
http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0000987/quotes
I tell my kids who teenage drivers, if you wreck the car because you were texting or intoxicated, it isn’t an accident.
By the same token, if you walk around with a loaded pistol, ignore advice to not follow someone and by your actions, threaten them, you are the aggressor. And when someone subsequently ends up hurt or dead, it is no accident, it is your fault.
I was thinking comic book villain myself.
Saw that. It is a mess- what they did and did not do that night.
Right! Isn’t that it. At any rate it does sound contrived.
As I said last night in one of my comments, the range for an intermediate or close range shot is 0.5 cm to 1 meter.
Forensic firearms experts typically will run an experiment using the gun, bullets from the same batch of ammo (typically obtained from the clip), the victim’s clothing and a dummy. They fire the gun several times into a different location, each time a little farther away from the target, and match the pattern produced by the gas and smokeless powder as closely as possible to the death wound. That’s how they get the distance.
2 to 4 inches is definitely within that range (Crane tells me that 1 cm is equal to about half an inch).
I am expecting the defense will file a motion to exclude at least one of the tests, which involves newer technology than the other. The argument will be that the technology is not reliable and should, therefore, be excluded under Rule 702, Daubert v. Merrell Dow, or Frye v. United States.
Not sure which of those rules is followed in Florida.
I predict this motion will lose.
The other test will be admissible because it has been around awhile and is an accepted methodology. Arguments about the accuracy of the results will go to the weight that the jury should give to the evidence, rather than its admissibility.
I’m assuming they mean the “below the top” of the head, because any lower would put the entry wound below the ribcage. Also, in order for the bullet to pierce both lungs it would have to have been fired more into his side than from the front.
“As I said last night in one of my comments, the range for an intermediate or close range shot is 0.5 cm to 1 meter.”
I know: I even replied to your comment, as you may recall.
If the shot came from one meter away that would (finally) provide some plausibility for your theory that Z managed to separate from M and shot him from a distance which might be considered safe, however if the shot was fired from no more tan 4 inches then that supports Z’s story.
So, in addition to still waiting for the angle of entry info we also need to find confirmation of the distance: where did you get your “0.5 cm to 1 meter” figures?
Thanks for the link. It clears up one question I had; namely, why did it take until the next morning before police identified Trayvon?
Answer: they didn’t canvass the entire neighborhood interviewing people to find out if they knew anything about what happened.
Also learned about a potential new witness, unless it is the woman who called 911 and during the call a terrified scream for help can be heard in the background.
Yes, there definitely are some problems with the investigation and the NYT spotted some of them.
Thanks, Kit.
I appreciate your comment.
Thanks, Elliott.
Got my lawyer hat on.
Not questioning your information. Just want to read the source article for additional information. Do you have a link to the autopsy report?
If the bullet penetrated both lungs, it would have to have been fired from the side.
That raises a bunch of interesting questions.
Yes, they measure from the top of the head.
I did this work for many years and I know these things. My specialties as a felony criminal defense lawyer were death penalty and forensics. I worked as a forensic consultant on many cases, including the Green River Killer case, until I joined the attorney team with responsibility for all forensics, including the DNA evidence.
Just checked my library.
Forensic Science: An Introduction to Scientific and Investigative Techniques (2d Edition), Edited by Stuart H. James and Jon J. Nordby (CRC Press 2005). pp. 48, 409.
That’s a good basic text for you to start with, if you (and anyone else) are interested. I used it in law school to teach the forensics portion of Wrongful Convictions. It was a required text.
Sorry, I was called away for a while. The info comes from ironymeter’s link. 2nd paragraph from the reporter’s secondhand statement.
I take the plural of lungs to mean both.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but when we first started getting info on the distance it wasn’t measurements but the phrase “intermediate range” which in your experience means between 0.5 centimeters (0.2 inches) and one meter (39 inches).
Now we’re getting actual numbers: has anyone except NBC used the 2″ to 4″ figures?
“I am confident the forensic firearm experts have already performed the standard experiments that I have described elsewhere in a comment on my previous article, but we do not yet know the results.” ; given all the other botched procedure associated with this case, why are you confident?
And you know full well about ‘eye witness’ accounts.
http://www.metric-conversions.org/
http://www.metric-conversions.org/length/inches-to-centimeters.htm
“too much truthiness brought to bear.”; good one !!
Considering the potentiality of a substantive truth enveloped in my satirical response to your initial Martin/Zimmerman diary posted yesterday, I must admit I am a bit confused, and would appreciate your insight(s) into what initially might appear to be a superficially insignificant observation.
I dare posit that dear, old Jonathan Swift would have smiled and even perhaps chortled at my comment.
But, alas, dear Jonathan has long since shuffled off this mortal coil, and others of a similar mind were definitely not seen among the groundlings yesterday here at FDL.
Why?
Would you perhaps not agree that the thrust of your diaries is but the tip of your professional/personal thoughts regarding the plethora of inequities bridging the chasm between the metaphysical substance of the law and its presently unfathomable disconnect from justice as administrated in this country?
If so, I penned my humble little satire to initiate conversation about how the American people have been so hoodwinked and bullied by the corporations, politicians, and media that they now don’t even question, or perhaps dare to question, why up is down, and black is white, and the truth has been adjudicated irrelevant as the fundamental, load bearing substratum upon which the entire edifice of constitutional democracy must stand or fall.
But, alas, Dean Swift was not here yesterday.
And the sounds of silence were deafening.
Simply deafening, my friend.
Zimmerman’s story was that he got out of his truck to read the street sign to see where he was and that Martin attacked him from behind as he returned to his vehicle.
This is of course absurd since he was patrolling the neighborhood for months prior to this incident. To get lost to the the point where he had to exit his truck to read the sign is not believable…and when was the last time anyone got out of their truck to read a street sign?
So now the story is that Martin approached him from the front and aggressively asked Zimmerman why he was following him. I wonder if the story is going to change again when the forensics come in.
“So now the story is that Martin approached him from the front”
When did he say that?
Key indicator in language from main post above -
Trayvon asked “Why are you following me?”, not “Why were you following me?”
This would indicate that Zimmerman’s story is indeed bullshit, that he was still pursuing Trayvon when confronted.
Dean Swift here.
Sorry I didn’t respond yesterday. I intended to come back to you but got caught up in a couple of story changes yesterday and eventually ran out of gas and forgot to respond before catching some zzzzzzzzzzssssss.
Please forgive.
I place a lot of the blame on my brothers and sisters who are criminal defense attorneys. When they don’t roll up their sleeves and fight like hell for their client’s rights, they become co-opted by the system such that laziness, sloppiness and corruption becomes rampant. Cops lie, prosecutors cheat and judges back them up every step of the way.
There will always be some corruption among police, prosecutors and judges, but if they do not fear being outed by tough, honest, and aggressive criminal defense attorneys, the corruption will spread and overcome the system.
That’s what we have here in McCracken County where the defense lawyers enable and defend the corruption at the expense of their clients.
And it’s not just here.
The right wing also has contributed to the corruption by demonizing criminal defense lawyers and their clients to the point where most prospective jurors come to court having already decided that all defendants are guilty and their lawyers are all scumbags.
That’s a great point, Kris!
I totally missed that.
Nice work.
Zimmerman’s statement includes the same question from Trayvon as the female friend.
“Why are you following me?”
I think that may be a big deal. Why would Trayvon ask a present tense question of the following had stopped and Zimmerman was retreating to his vehicle, which was where Trayvon initially saw him?
The phrasing of the question is not proper or casual English for the set of circumstances described by Zimmerman.
Don’t know.
Don’t worry: we’ll find out.
A lot of people are probably unaware that it used to very hard to get a conceal carry permit in most places because law enforcement was firmly against having a lot of dumb sons of bitches running around with guns.
This piece of wisdom is similar to the situation surrounding methamphetamine use/abuse, each generation, it seems must go through the pain of learning by experience that Speed Kills, with the result being manic periods of meth worship followed predictably by ten years or so of relative sanity. The sanity lasts until everyone forgets how dangerous the stuff is, and what a bummer it is to be surrounded by crazed tweekers.
The Wild West wasn’t as much fun as the movies would have us believe, and much of the problem in the end was caused by lack of law enforcement, and a lot of dumb sons of bitches running around with guns.
Our right-leaning politicians have for years demagogued the issue of the second amendment right to bear arms, and though our country had been through the whole process of learning why it’s necessary to regulate firearms, we are susceptible to the politicians BS because most of us have never had any first-hand experience with living in an environment rife with senseless gun violence.
I would guess that we are nowhere near the peak of the conceal-carry craze, but we will, sooner or later become sick of stories like this and eventually we’ll decide that it’s not such a good idea to let any dumb son of a bitch who wants to, carry a concealed firearm in public.
I grew up deeply embedded in a culture that respected the proper handling of firearms, my grandfather was a NRA lifetime member, and over the years I must have read, and re-read about 30 years’ worth of The National Rifleman, cover to cover.
I’m writing this by way of explaining that in the end, even, maybe especially, the responsible gun owners amongst us will tire of all the foolishness, and carnage, and insist on reasonable laws to prevent the stupid, and tragic stuff that happens when you allow a lot of dumb sons of bitches to go running around with guns.
Mr. Zimmerman is the sort of guy I’m writing about; a guy who had to learn by actual experience that even with no real intent on his part, he could end up a murderer.
Mr. Zimmerman is just the sort of dumb son of a bitch that should never have been allowed to carry a gun, and the way we solved that problem previously, was to pass laws against most carrying of concealed firearms.
The court may not convict Mr. Zimmerman of murder, but I doubt he’ll ever carry a pistol again because in his heart, the dumb son of a bitch now knows for sure what he would never have learned any other way.
“Why would Trayvon ask a present tense question of the following had stopped”
That’s “IF” the following had stopped: I’m not being picky, just illustrating the obvious point that typos and grammatical mistakes happen.
Do either of you really think there’s any probative value to a high school kid mixing tenses during a tense (no pun intended) situation, or are you just that desperate?
The firearms expert who opined that the gun muzzle was 2 to 4 inches from the entry point when the fatal shot was fired is Dr. Vincent J. M. di Maio, the former Medical Examiner for Bexar County, TX. San Antonio is located in Bexar County.
He is well known and has his own page at Wiki and Amazon.
He based his opinion on the Medical Examiner’s report that said there was a 2-inch diameter smoke ring around the entry wound.
The NBC reporter said NBC had been provided with an opportunity to read the ME’s Report that has not been released yet.
The reporter said the entry wound was on the left side of the chest, 17 inches below the head, and it went directly from front to back passing through the lungs.
My question: If it goes directly from front to back, how does it pass through both lungs?
That would require a shot angled from the left side of his chest toward the right side of his chest.
Do you know if a shot fired at an angle would produce a cone-shaped smoke ring as opposed to a round one from straight ahead?
> “One of us is going to die tonight?”
No, no, and no. I thought he said
There’s gonna be a heartache tonight,
The moon shinin’ bright
I’ll turn out your lights, and we’ll start to fight.
There’s gonna be a heartache tonight, a
Heartache tonight I know.
So we can beat around the bush
Or can get down to the bone
We can leave it in the parking lot,
But either way, there’s goan’
Be a Heartache tonight, a
Heartache tonight I know.
Yes, it would, but it would be difficult to detect in a low angle closer-in intermediate distance shot.
I’m inclined to think the reporter misspoke when he said “lungs.” Probably a straight-on shot through the left lung and Trayvon suffocated in his own blood.
OK, pups. Class is in session.
Assume we have a single shot fired with the muzzle of the gun 2 to 4 inches away from the point of entry in the left side of the victim’s chest, 17 inches down from the top of his head. The shot travels straight on from front to back through the left lung without hitting any bone.
In addition to the fatal gunshot wound, the victim has a mild abrasion in the ring area that is an eighth to a quarter inch long.
No other injuries observed on the victim.
Is this scenario consistent or inconsistent with the shooter firing his gun while lying on his back being beaten by the victim, who is on top of him smashing his head into a sidewalk?
Don’t forget to explain your answer.
Which side did Z wear his holster on?
Sorry, let me rephrase: was Z’s holster positioned for a right hand or left hand draw?
Don’t know and don’t know if he is right or left handed.
Is this new to the discussion?
Court docs: Trayvon Martin shooting ‘ultimately avoidable by Zimmerman’
Also
court docs in big PDF file
Just to be clear.
2 to 4 inches definitely is not a contact or near contact wound, as it is within the intermediate range of 0.5 cm to 1 meter.
Many thanks, Elliott.
Yes, it is new.
Feels like Christmas.
Zimmerman was the aggressor , trailer or stalker what ever you like . Without his profiling and tracking ,started and carried out, by zimmerman , like Trayvon was some find of criminal, Trayvon would be an unknown name today.
Just to be clear, I am aware that the range of 2″ to 4″ falls within the range of 0.2 inches to 39 inches: so what?
Whatever terminology you use, 39 inches “is consistent with a scenario in which the two individuals have separated” and 4 inches is consistent with two people grappling over the weapon.
I am curious about something, though: if “intermediate” range starts at only 0.2 inches then what the heck is “near contact” range, less than 1/5th of an inch?
That’s true, but you know what? It’s not a crime.
Even an intermediate wound is not itself sufficient to determine if Zimmerman was in fear for his life. I’ve been in my share of street fights and I can tell, being on the bottom sometimes you manage to use your legs or a foot to push the other guy back. But they often immediately close in and try to mount you again.
The combination of the GSR and the angle of penetration test will tell us a lot.
What I don’t understand is why Mason isn’t practicing law again somewhere. Surely there is some legal group that could benefit from his skills and experience. Hey, Mason, get back in the fight!
Some strange guy keeps following me late at nite better have a good reason if george had hi I’m with the community watch to Travon that would be a good reason to be followed.
But if George did not say that and just kept on following well stalkers straight or gay late at nite do tend to get beat up.
That is what I would argue.
A fellow 18 inches away from you reaches for a gun and you try to stop him – and he then shoots you from 18 inches away – and that is self defense.
Guess I’d deserve it for asking him why he was following me.
What if he were drunk or high? Not giving george any drug or alcohol test after he shoots someone seems a no brainer. OT but I am wondering if
Travon’s parents can sue the police and or District Attorney sure they are protected from lawsuits for doing their jobs as government workers but this seems like they were not doing their basic jobs.
Here’s my summary of the autopsy report, which was released by the prosecution in the document dump. All material is quoted, unless otherwise indicated.
Trayvon was 71 inches tall [5' 11"] and weighed 158 pounds.
Cause of Death was a penetrating gunshot wound to the chest entering 17 and 1/2 inches below the top of the head, 1-inch to the left of the midline and 1/2 inch below the left nipple. The entrance would is round and 3/8 inch in diameter. There is soot, ring abrasion and a 2 X 2 area of stippling. perforated heart and lung. This wound is consistent with a wound of intermediate range.
Three bullet fragments are recovered. The lead core is found in the pericardial sac behind the left ventricle. Two fragments of the jacket are recovered in the pleural sac behind the right lower lobe of the left lung. Both lungs are collapsed.
Entrance: Left chest, intermediate range
Path of projectile: skin, left anterior 5th intercostal space, pericardial sac, right ventricle of the heart, right lower lobe of the lung
Direction of the projectile: Directly front to back
Exit: none; fragments of projectile recovered in pericardial sac and right pleural cavity
Associated injuries: Entrance wound; perforations of the pericardial sac,right ventricle of heart, right lower lobe of lung with bilateral pleural hemorrhage
Post mortem radiograph: Metallic fragments of projectile identified.
Note: The cerebral hemispheres reveal a normal gyral pattern with severe global edema [severe swelling]
Right that sounds like movie dialogue people tend not to talk much once the hitting starts in a fight.
Given how close the shot supposedly was why was George not covered in Travon’s blood? I agree the amount of gunpowder residue will either seal the case or be very hard to overcome to get a conviction but the lack of blood on george likely gives us an idea of how far george was.
If the gunshot experts say George was close but can’t explain the lack of blood on george then I will suspect the gunshot experts are lying.
You raised the issue in your comment @2. That’s “so what.”
Not necessarily, particularly when you consider the path of the bullet.
I would like to hear if George’s Dad contacted the District Attorney before george was brought to the station. I would like to know if the DA really treats all murder suspects the way george was treated.
No arrest? no drug alcohol test? no testing his clothes for gunshot residue or blood until what the next day?
This all sounds like special treatment.
The high school kid didn’t. Zimmerman did. Trayvon’s friend also confirms the same from her phone call with him.
‘Of’ was a typo. That’s hugely different from mixing tenses while speaking. “Are” and “Were” aren’t next to each other on the keyboard.
They did not test him for drugs or alcohol, but they did seize his clothes and gun and place them into evidence. So they are available for testing and probably have been tested. The results may be in the document release for which Elliott provided a link.
Wouldn’t that be indicative of a strong blow to the head?
Could this occur from falling after the shooting? My rudimentary understanding of anatomical forensics would suggest that no; this couldn’t occur on falling after the shooting. His heart would no longer have been pumping so swelling in the head would not have occurred.
Am I way off base here, Mason?
Also too, 2″x2″ stippling would indicate close range, or the closer end of the intermediate spectrum.
Mason,
The issue is not whether Zimmerman was ordered by an officer with authority to stop following someone who wasn’t breaking any laws, but whether Zimmerman can claim that he was standing his ground when he was, in fact, following the kid he ended up killing.
The fact that Zimmerman was told that he didn’t have to follow the kid he ended up killing just adds to the fact that he shouldn’t have been following the kid he ended up killing.
No, Kris pointed out an inconsistency and your explanation about a typo is a real stretch since Zimmerman and Martin’s girlfriend used the same word to describe what Zimmerman said.
It’s not a typo and your casual and somewhat insulting dismissal only shows the weakness in your argument. It certainly does not strengthen it.
I recall reading early on in this case, long before Zimmerman was in custody and charges were filed, that Zimmerman’s neighborhood watch ‘organization’ had not been re-certified by local police, or maybe the local city council?
So in acting as a ‘neighborhood watchman’, he was not authorized to do so by any authority. He was simply acting as a vigilante.
I could be totally wrong on this. A short google search doesn’t yield what I’m looking for.
In either case, Zimmerman was an armed man who had no reason to follow a teenage kid with a bag of Skittles. He certainly had no reason to get out of his car and provoke a confrontation.
I know what the issue is, Knox. I merely said that Zimmerman’s decision to follow Trayvon does not necessarily make him the aggressor, although a jury certainly could draw that conclusion.
This really is not a SYG case.
The single issue is whether, at the time Zimmerman shot Trayvon, he reasonably believed that he was in imminent danger of death or suffering grievous bodily harm such that his use of deadly force was necessary to defend himself.
k… there is talk the zimmerman was already seeking psychiatric care and was at least prescribed the wacky drugs they push on people. so we can assume that he had issues.
isnt it possible that Martin confronted him out of fear, one of them threw a punch which started the fight, Martin got the upperhand being younger and in better shape and this enraged Zimmerman that a “coon” or “goon” or “punk” was getting the best of him and he snapped and shot Martin.
A lot of Zimmermans story could be more or less factual. But irrelevant. To me the relevant part would be when the gun came into play. Since Martin is dead, Zimmerman can say anything he wants. All I can think of is Chicago and “we both reached for the gun”
I really want to know what the medical examiner thinks caused the cerebral edemas…
Blows to the head cause those. They don’t cause them after you’re dead.
Unless I’m mistaken, charges weren’t originally filed against the killer in this case on the basis of SYG.
The only issue is whether Zimmerman caused the totally avoidable confrontation that led to a teenager’s unnecessary death.
It’s the exact same argument that the homicide investigator at the scene made when he recommended that Zimmerman be charged in the first place.
Zimmerman can’t claim he was defending himself. He created all the conditions and provoked the entire confrontation.
Exactly what I am thinking, which is why I noted it.
Was there any indication in the autopsy report of external head trauma? Abrasions, bruising?
Also, do we know anything about the condition of Zimmerman’s hands? I wonder if they were photographed when he was in custody?
I respectfully disagree. If, as he says, he lost Martin and was returning to his vehicle when Martin came up from behind him, confronted him, sucker-punched him knocking him to the ground, then jumped on him and started beating his head against the sidewalk attempting to kill him, he would be entitled to use deadly force to defend himself because it would be reasonably necessary to prevent being killed or suffering grievous bodily harm.
Sorry for the long sentence.
I don’t believe his story makes any sense because I think he confronted Martin and the deeper we get into this thing I think the more guilty he is going to look. I think Martin was standing his ground defending himself when Zimmerman shot him.
No, not to his head.
Note that the only injury to Martin’s hands is an abrasion to his ring finger 1/8th to 1/4 inch long in the ring position (i.e., not the knuckle).
The condition of his hands does not support Zimmerman’s claim that Trayvon was beating him.
Don’t know about Zimmerman’s hands.
Actually, as you don’t seem to be buying Zimmerman’s story that he was jumped from behind while returning to his car either, you appear to be agreeing with me, all while simultaneously arguing a hypothetical, i.e. an alternate reality in which Zimmerman might have been justified.
Zimmerman’s head injuries are not consistent with repeated bangs to the sidewalk. Two abrasions not requiring stitches would occur from one blow, two at the most.
I’m also shocked to hear that the bullet path was straight front to back. I can’t conceive of a scenario where Zimmerman shoots Trayvon straight front to back while prone with Trayvon on top of him.
Do we know at what position Zimmerman’s weapon was holstered? Was it a hip holster?
Do we know if it was on his right or left side? Trayvon’s injury would indicate that Zimmerman was right-handed and drawing from his right side.
If this is indeed the case, then I certainly can’t conceive of any scenario where Zimmerman drew from his right hip and fired a shot at Trayvon, who was supposedly on top of him, resulting in a straight front to back bullet trajectory. Especially if it was fired from 4-8 inches away, which is what the stippling spread would suggest.
Disclaimer – swingin’ wild ass speculation!
I think Mason is just trying to weigh both sides of the court argument. Speculating on what the prosecution will argue vs. what the defense will argue.
This abrasion on Trayvon’s knuckle wouldn’t be indicative of a combat-type injury.
The ring position is not an area where the skin will split where a blow is struck. The only thing on Zimmerman’s face that would cause a cut is teeth, which were not hit. His nose was. In the picture above Zimmerman doesn’t appear to have a nose ring that could cause the abrasion on Trayvon’s finger.
This is all really interesting stuff.
I agree with your point @76. The more information that comes to light, the more obvious it becomes that at the very least, Zimmerman lied his ass off about what happened.
If this is all you got, then my vote is not guilty. He said she said sort of,thing.
Take a look at the autopsy evidence.
There are also two 911 audio recordings containing evidence. Not exactly ‘he said/she said’.
The case hasn’t gone to trial. We have no idea what forensic evidence there might be.
No. Since before he was charged, I have consistently said I thought he murdered Martin.
In this article, I was correcting some misperceptions of the issues. That is, he is not automatically guilty because he decided to follow Martin.
He is guilty because he used deadly force when it was not reasonably necessary for him to do so to prevent imminent death or grievous bodily injury.
I agree. I would expect an upward angle from front to back, or some deviation left or right, not a straight on shot. He has to get the gun in front of him between their bodies and that means they have to be separated. Looks like he aimed and shot him straight on through the heart.
Moderately interesting… but none of that changes the simple fact that Zimmerman opted to unnecessarily ‘engage’ Martin directly (despite the dispatcher telling him that this was not necessary and that officers were already en route), and he did so specifically because he knew he had his trusty firearm at his side.
Would Zimmerman have been so eager to play hero with a potential thug if he were not armed? Not likely. Therefore, Zimmerman’s mindset at that time was pretty clear… “the cops are on their way, but me and my gun can handle this”. That makes for pretty weak case of ‘self-defense’… one wherein he started a fight that he need his gun to finish.
Lock him up.
Can’t predict what I don’t know or what a real jury will do. Just sayin, what I read here is not guilty.
His disregard of the dispatcher’s request certainly indicates he intended to find Martin and prevent him from getting away like all the other “assholes” who “always get away.”
Don’t know about the holster or whether Zimmerman was right or left handed. Certainly, important information to know. Hopefully, it’s in the document dump.
Now I would find that incriminating,.but I suppose z can spin it.
He clearly mumbled this on his 911 call. “These assholes always get away.”
There’s also what sounds like “fu**ing coon”.
Don’t overlook the height and weight disparity.
Trayvon was 5’11″ and weighed 158 lbs.
Zimmerman was 5’9″ and weighed 200 lbs.
Hard to imagine that Zimmerman was reasonably in fear of imminent death or grievous bodily injury, even if Martin had initially gained an advantage. Not with that disparity and armed with a gun.
He doesn’t have the wounds to support his self-defense claim.
If he were able to get the gun out and pointed at Martin, he certainly did not need to shoot him to prevent being killed or suffering further injury from an unarmed teenager.
That’s what really sinks his case in flames.
Ahem, don’t go Obama on us.
Gotta give Zimmerman due process of law and a jury trial first.
There are also forensic aspects to consider with the height disparity and bullet trajectory. I’m a layman so I can’t even begin to speculate on what these things might eventually tell us.
What we can be certain of is that there is a wealth of forensic evidence here and it will all come out at trial.
“If, as he says, he lost Martin and was returning to his vehicle when Martin came up from behind him, confronted him, sucker-punched him knocking him to the ground, then jumped on him and started beating his head against the sidewalk attempting to kill him, he would be entitled to use deadly force to defend himself because it would be reasonably necessary to prevent being killed or suffering grievous bodily harm.”
Well, golly gee, Mason: isn’t that what I’ve been saying for days?
“I think Martin was standing his ground defending himself when Zimmerman shot him.”
That would require that Z attacked M: do you have any evidence?
“The condition of his hands does not support Zimmerman’s claim that Trayvon was beating him.”
How many times does Z say M hit him? 1, 5, 10?
“His disregard of the dispatcher’s request certainly indicates he intended to find Martin”
Did he disregard the dispatcher’s request, or “as he says, he lost Martin and was returning to his vehicle”?
The case against Zimmerman must be proved “beyond a reasonable doubt.” That is a very large burden on the prosecution in this case, where there is reason to believe that Martin gained an initial advantage on Zimmerman, and Zimmerman shot in fear that that advantage might turn lethal. Even the very short range of the lethal shot seems consistent with Zimmerman’s claim.
The best that the prosecution has is the audio tape of the cry for help that suddenly ended with the firing of the short and that two forensic audio experts independently say was not a cry from Zimmerman. IMHO, they’ll have to hang their case on that tape.
> Did he disregard the dispatcher’s request, or “as he says,
> he lost Martin and was returning to his vehicle”?
Good point, because both or either or neither may be true. Thanks for thinking that one up. But when only the
stalkershooter — the one with the gun at the scene — is alive, we all have to just trust that whatever he says is the God’s Own Truth. Skittles or no Skittles.Not exactly. But, the prosecutor has to convince the jury that “beyond a reasonable doubt” that is not what went down.
Ya true. I’m just grateful that ironymoter is available to think up every possible, if implausible, scenario to suggest Zimmerman’s complete innocence for the racist white jury to consider.
IMHO, it will all come down to whose scream that was on the audio recording.
Very generous of you, storyofo, but I can’t take credit for “thinking that one up” since I was quoting Mason (you did notice that… right?) who in turn was working off Zimmerman’s statement as to what happened (you did notice that… right?).
“we all have to just trust that whatever he says is the God’s Own Truth”
You might, but I don’t trust anyone’s unsupported statements: I do wild and crazy things like considering evidence (what a concept!) On Z’s 911 call, for example, you can hear him stop running after the dispatcher says, “Okay, we don’t need you to do that,” to which Zimmerman responds, “Okay,” and then says of Martin, “He ran.” About a minute later he says, “I don’t know where this kid is.”
Sounds like he was really hot on the trail of his intended victim, huh?
ROFLMAO (again)
Isn’t stalking a crime?
And isn’t killing someone with a handgun during the process of committing a crime [stalking] technically First-Degree Murder?
And isn’t that stalking also a Hate Crime? Zimmerman said “they” always get away with it, displaying his prejudicial bigotry, and that that effected his decision to commit the crime of stalking, during which he killed Martin.
Zimmerman said that and the forensic evidence does not support it.
BTW, why must you always salt and pepper your arguments by injecting sarcasm and insults? Are you not secure enough to let your arguments speak for themselves? You need to work on that behavioral deficiency.
Yes. Absence of any serious injuries to Zimmerman and absence of any injuries to Martin’s hands, except for the small abrasion to Martin’s ring finger in the area where a ring would normally be [not on the knuckle], Zimmerman was armed with a firearm and Martin did not have a weapon.
I also am concerned about this entry in the autopsy report that I mentioned in comment 57:
“The cerebral hemispheres reveal a normal gyral pattern with severe global edema [severe swelling].”
I do not know what caused that swelling, but Martin’s heart stopped beating when the bullet perforated the right ventricle of his heart and we know he was not breathing because the bullet perforated his left lung and both of his lungs were collapsed. Since he was lying in a prone position, I don’t see a mechanism for blood flowing into the cranial cavity. I cannot help but wonder if Zimmerman jumped Martin, which is consistent with the girlfriend’s description and opinion of what happened during her phone call with Martin.
There is also a witness who reported seeing Zimmerman on top of Martin with his hands around his throat right after the shot.
I need a medical expert to help me out with this issue. Was the edema caused by circulatory collapse or head trauma?
Zimmerman and the witness named John used the plural tense to describe Martin hitting Zimmerman and continuing multiple blows and head banging are necessary to support Zimmerman’s claim that he had to kill Martin to prevent imminent death or grievous bodily harm. By the way, no witness claims to have seen any head banging going on. Only Zimmerman makes that claim.
Zimmerman’s claim of self-defense goes up in smoke, if Martin only hit him once in the nose, knocking him down and the back of Zimmerman’s head hits the sidewalk.
I believe he had returned to his vehicle before the conversation with the dispatcher ended. He said he did not know where Martin was and “I’ve got to get out of here.”
Given the context of the conversation at that time, just before Zimmerman terminated the call, I believe I can reasonably conclude that Zimmerman was unhappy and impatient because he thought yet another “asshole” was “getting away,” so he left his vehicle to hunt down the “asshole,” whom he found, confronted, shot and killed within a few minutes while Martin was talking to his girlfriend on the cell phone.
Pending confirmation by a medical expert, I think he likely bull rushed Martin and knocked him down to start the confrontation.
Not necessarily.
Zimmerman could not lawfully use deadly force to defend himself unless a reasonable person would have concluded that the use of deadly force was necessary to prevent imminent death or grievous bodily harm.
Zimmerman had a gun. Martin was unarmed.
Although 2 inches shorter, Zimmerman outweighed Martin by 42 pounds.
Martin was staying in the neighborhood and walking to the house minding his own business when Zimmerman intersected and ended his life.
As I said in the previous comment, looks to me like Zimmerman was in his vehicle when he terminated the call to the dispatcher and set out to find Martin to prevent him from getting away. I do not believe there is any evidence to support Zimmerman’s claim that Martin came up behind him as he was walking back to his vehicle.
If he lied about that, or anything else in his statement, he’s toast.
Agree with Wigwam’s answer to your comment, but I will add that there is a lot of evidence to consider. We don’t have to accept Zimmerman’s statement as true, if it conflicts with other evidence.
His credibility is in question.
Consider, for example the straight-on shot where the muzzle of the gun is 2 to 4 inches away from the entry wound. Wouldn’t you expect an upward trajectory of the bullet, instead of a straight-on shot, if Zimmerman was lying on his back and Martin was straddling him banging his head against the sidewalk?
How do you get a straight-on shot that enters the chest 1-inch to the left of the midline and 1/2-inch below the left nipple, if Martin is lying on top of Zimmerman? There isn’t enough room between the two for the gun and a distance of 2 to 4 inches from the muzzle to the entry wound.
If Zimmerman lied, why did he lie, unless he did so to fabricate a self-defense claim?
That is not the only important issue in this fascinating case, but it is huge and may well determine the outcome of the case.
Delighted that you’re continuing to entertain yourself.
Again, that sort of response during a serious discussion about the tragic killing of a beautiful young man with his whole life in front of him grates like chalk screeching across a blackboard. Do you not know how arrogant, conceited and narcissistic that comment makes you look?
Since this is my blog, I believe I have a duty to create and maintain a safe place for people to comment without fear of personal criticism.
Knock it off.
‘Pleural’ pertains to lungs. ‘Plural’ means many.
Oops, my bad, hotdog. I misunderstood the question. You were referring to the “s” in lungs, I assume. Very sorry!
Amen to that, brother.
Not to worry, I thought you were just being puerile.
Pretty much indicates he was still looking for him, no?
CNN reports this morning:
Note: This is consistent with the report of the witness who said she saw Zimmerman on top of Martin after the shot was fired.
This is compelling new information.
We now have a 911 call from the second witness with the recorded scream that was not Zimmerman. We also have cerebral edema present in Trayvon’s autopsy. We have no offensive wounds on Trayvon’s hands. We have Trayvon’s girlfriend and Zimmerman using the present tense in Trayvon’s question before the attack. We have Trayvon’s girlfriend saying she heard “get off, get off” from Trayvon before his phone disconnected.
In this timeline, I’m beginning to question the injuries to Zimmerman. In the surveillance tape from the police department were any of the described injuries from his medical report evident? I don’t recall seeing any injuries to his face or the back of his head on this video…
CNN also has a copy of the EMT’s Report in which he notes:
Assessment 1941 [7:41 pm]
Patient Conscious
Breathing Quality Adult Normal 12-20 [which is normal, not panting or out of breath]
No External Hemorrhage noted; Mucuous Membrane Normal
Central Body Color Normal
Extremities Normal
Within Normal Limits (Airway, Breathing Quality, Accessory Muscle Use, Chest Rise, Radial Pulse, Skin Temp, Skin Moisture [not sweating], Skin Turgor [not showing signs of dehydration], Cap Refill [blood circulation is normal], Pupil Size and Reaction.
[Or as Crane Station, a former RN says, He's cool as a cucumber, which seems unusual for a person who minutes earlier killed someone and is now under arrest while sitting in the rear seat of a police vehicle with his hands handcuffed behind his back ]
Note this bombshell:
Patient says he was assaulted and his head was struck on the pavement.
Pt’s GCS = 15 [Glascow Coma Scale, which is a level of consciousness scale and 15 is normal] and he is warm and dry with normal skin color. Pt has abrasions to his forehead + bleeding/tenderness to his nose and a small laceration to the back of his head. All injuries have minor bleeding. Pt also denies LOC [loss of consciousness], neck/back pain, and he has + PMS [pulse motor sensory function] X 4 [in all extremeties] with – paresthesia [no tingling]
[That means his pulse, motor, and sensory functions were all okay and functioning normally]
Looks like Trayvon hit Zimmerman with his cell phone as he was yelling at Zimmerman to get off him
“That would require that Z attacked M: do you have any evidence?”
“Yes. Absence of any serious injuries to Zimmerman and absence of any injuries to Martin’s hands, except for the small abrasion to Martin’s ring finger in the area where a ring would normally be [not on the knuckle], Zimmerman was armed with a firearm and Martin did not have a weapon.”
As you know, that is not evidence that Z attacked M, giving M the right to SHG. Where is M’s broken nose, abraded skull, grass stained jacket?
“no witness claims to have seen any head banging going on. Only Zimmerman makes that claim.”
A claim supported by medical evidence.
“I believe I can reasonably conclude that Zimmerman was unhappy and impatient because he thought yet another “asshole” was “getting away,” so he left his vehicle to hunt down the “asshole,” whom he found, confronted, shot and killed within a few minutes while Martin was talking to his girlfriend on the cell phone.”
So, he broke off pursuit at the dispatcher’s suggestion even though he didn’t have to, then changed his mind and resumed the pursuit without telling the dispatcher what he was doing or which way he was headed? Then the short pudgy guy easily runs down the long-legged trim teenager despite the kid’s considerable head start and unknown location? I’m experiencing reasonable doubt here.
“I think he likely bull rushed Martin and knocked him down to start the confrontation.”
So, he asked Martin, “Why are you here?” and then attacked without waiting for an answer? Do you actually have anything that would indicate that? External injuries on Martin, grass on his clothes, etc?
If the prosecution presents the case you just described…. What’s it called when the judge throws it out even before the defense speaks because the prosecution failed to meet it’s burden?
I was thinking maybe the drink he was carrying? Do we know if it was a can or bottle?
This report really doesn’t offer us much except for that analysis of his injury. I suppose the pavement could be a blunt object…
“heard the teenager saying, “get off, get off” in the moments before his cell phone cut off”
Do I misremember, or was her previous statement that the phone cut off after Z said, “Why are you here?”
Struck by blunt/thrown pavement?
How about hit in the face with the phone and fell back hitting his head on the sidewalk?
In any event, he told the EMT a different story than he subsequently told the police, his injuries were minor, and he did not even break a sweat.
No, we never saw her original complete statement until today.
“Again, that sort of response during a serious discussion about the tragic killing…”
When someone posts comments that are not contributions to the “serious discussion” but consist solely of snark directed personally at another poster you shouldn’t be surprised if the target snaps back.
Think of it as standing your virtual ground.
The Assistant ME who performed the autopsy found the can of iced tea inside the belly pocket of Trayvon’s hoodie.
So it was likely the phone.
Do we know what state his phone was recovered in? Broken or damaged?
LOL, I needed a laugh!
Don’t believe it was damaged very badly, if at all. Thy were eventually able to get into it and it still worked. But dad didn’t know the password, so they had to get someone who knew how to work around that.
Zimmerman’s injuries were minor, so I don’t believe the cell phone would be busted, if he hit Zimmerman with it.
Don’t really know and am just speculating that Martin might have used it to hit Zimmerman. Could explain Zimmerman’s injuries, including to the back of his head, as I’ve never bought the head slamming story.
Anything about the “new video evidence” mentioned in CSM a few days ago?
Since this is still going on; from the BBC reporting: “Officer Timothy Smith said: “I could observe that [Mr Zimmerman's] back appeared to be wet and he was covered in grass, as if he had been laying on his back on the ground. Zimmerman was also bleeding from the nose and the back of the head.”
Another officer, Jonathan Mead, said in his report that the neighbourhood watchman “appeared to have a broken and bloody nose and swelling of his face”.
“The documents also confirm previous media reports that Trayvon Martin was visiting Sanford because he had been suspended from his Miami high school for cannabis possession.
Medical examiners found THC, the psychoactive ingredient in marijuana, in the teenager’s blood and urine, according to an post-mortem report among the tranche of documents released on Thursday.”
Can’t believe they are bringing pot into this but it doesn’t surprise me.
The medical report itself cites ‘trace amounts of THC’, from what I read earlier. Can’t find where I read it, though.
Yes: they have to mention everything they find. Personally, I’m ignoring the THC as irrelevant since the concentration was so low and (frankly) because I don’t see it as doing anything “wrong”
That’s where I’m at. It’s irrelevant to the crimes that may or may not have been committed.
FBI Digital Evidence Laboratory reports:
Source: Prosecutor’s document dump (PDF File)
Crap. Sure would be nice to have a little more “hard” evidence in this case.
If they really were wrestling for the weapon then Martin should have gunpowder residue on his hands, right?
Given previous outing of FBI evidence labs, well…..it just makes me wonder how these other ‘experts’ were able to make their conclusions. I suspect the police reports that the BBC mentioned are going to play a large part in any trial.