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(photo: werthmedia/flickr)
Cross posted from Frederick Leatherman Law Blog.
I apologize for the length of this article, but there is a lot of information to cover. Includes lots of new information that came out this week.
Many lawyers, including myself, have focused the discussion in the George Zimmerman case on who initiated aggressive physical contact, because there is no law that prohibits a person from approaching another person and asking them what they are doing.
Nevertheless, as I also have pointed out, Zimmerman’s intent when approaching Martin is relevant regarding who threw the first punch.
Keep in mind that it is after dark and raining.
What Was Zimmerman’s Intent?
As Zimmerman sat in his vehicle talking to the dispatcher, we know he was suspicious about Martin’s presence and intentions.
When he called the non-emergency number for the Sanford Police Department seven minutes before he shot and killed an unarmed teenager named Trayvon Martin, he said,
7:09:00: Zimmerman: Hey we’ve had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there’s a real suspicious guy, uh, [near] Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he’s up to no good, or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about.
7:09:25: Dispatcher: OK, and this guy is he white, black, or Hispanic?
Zimmerman: He looks black.
Dispatcher: Did you see what he was wearing?
Zimmerman: Yeah. A dark hoodie, like a grey hoodie, and either jeans or sweatpants and white tennis shoes. He’s [unintelligible], he was just staring…
7:09:42: Dispatcher: OK, he’s just walking around the area…
Zimmerman: …looking at all the houses.Dispatcher: OK…
Zimmerman: Now he’s just staring at me.
He also was concerned about Martin approaching him and possibly being armed.
Zimmerman: Yeah, now he’s coming towards me.
Dispatcher: OK.
Zimmerman: He’s got his hand in his waistband. And he’s a black male.
7:10:03: Dispatcher: How old would you say he looks?
Zimmerman: He’s got button on his shirt, late teens.
Dispatcher: Late teens ok.
Zimmerman: Somethings wrong with him. Yup, he’s coming to check me out, he’s got something in his hands, I don’t know what his deal is.
7:10:20: Dispatcher: Just let me know if he does anything ok
Zimmerman: How long until you get an officer over here?
Dispatcher: Yeah we’ve got someone on the way, just let me know if this guy does anything else.
Martin, evidently, walks past him without stopping or speaking.
As Zimmerman identifies himself to the dispatcher and provides directions to his location , he expresses frustration three times that Martin will get away before the police officer arrives [See italicized material below -- the bracketed descriptions of background sounds within the quoted material were provided by Wikipedia]. He gets out of his vehicle, follows Martin and acknowledges the dispatcher’s instruction not to do that with a simple “OK.”
Yet, he appears to continue looking for Martin, instead of returning to his vehicle. When the dispatcher asks him where his vehicle is parked, he says he cannot because it is parked in front of a “cut-through” or pedestrian walkway “between buildings” (townhomes). He does not appear to be in or near his vehicle because he neither provides any addresses to be used as landmarks near his vehicle, nor does he describe his vehicle or provide explicit directions to find it. Instead, he tells the dispatcher to instruct the officer en route to call him on his cell phone after he arrives in the neighborhood.
Zimmerman: Okay. These assholes they always get away. When you come to the clubhouse you come straight in and make a left. Actually you would go past the clubhouse.
7:10:39 Dispatcher: So it’s on the lefthand side from the clubhouse?
Zimmerman: No you go in straight through the entrance and then you make a left…uh you go straight in, don’t turn, and make a left. Shit he’s running.
7:11:08: Dispatcher: He’s running? Which way is he running?
[Ambient sounds are heard which may be Zimmerman unbuckling his seat belt and his vehicle's "open door" chime sounding. The change in his voice and the sound of wind against his cell phone mic indicate that he has left his vehicle and is now walking. The dispatcher seems to pick up on these changes and sounds concerned when he later asks Zimmerman if he is following Martin.]
Zimmerman: Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.
Dispatcher: Which entrance is that that he’s heading towards?
Zimmerman: The back entrance…fucking [disputed/unintelligible]
[This section of the recording has been the subject of much speculation. Some suggest that Zimmerman has just made a racial slur, but the audio is not clear.]
7:11:22: Dispatcher: Are you following him?
7:11:25: Zimmerman: Yeah
7:11:26: Dispatcher: Ok, we don’t need you to do that.
7:11:28 Zimmerman: Ok
Dispatcher: Alright sir what is your name?
Zimmerman: George…He ran.
Dispatcher: Alright George what’s your last name?
[A clicking or knocking sound can be heard here]
Zimmerman: Zimmerman
Dispatcher: And George what’s the phone number you’re calling from?
[Clicking or knocking sound is heard again]
Zimmerman: [phone number redacted]
Dispatcher: Alright George we do have them on the way, do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there?
Zimmerman: Yeah.
Dispatcher: Alright, where you going to meet with them at?
[For the remainder of the recording, Zimmerman sounds distracted. The knocking sound occurs several times during the final exchange with the dispatcher]
Zimmerman: If they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the club house, and uh, straight past the club house and make a left, and then they go past the mailboxes, that’s my truck…[unintelligible]
7:12:10: Dispatcher: What address are you parked in front of?
Zimmerman: I don’t know, it’s a cut through so I don’t know the address.
Dispatcher: Okay do you live in the area?
Zimmerman: Yeah, I…[unintelligible]
Dispatcher: What’s your apartment number?
Zimmerman: It’s a home it’s 1950, oh crap I don’t want to give it all out, I don’t know where this kid is.
7:12:40 Dispatcher: Okay do you want to just meet with them right near the mailboxes then?
7:11:42 Zimmerman: Yeah that’s fine.
7:12:43: Dispatcher: Alright George, I’ll let them know to meet you around there okay?
Zimmerman: Actually could you have them call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at?
7:12:49: Dispatcher: Okay, yeah that’s no problem.
Zimmerman: Should I give you my number or you got it?
Dispatcher: Yeah I got it [redacted]
Zimmerman: Yeah you got it.
Dispatcher: Okay no problem, I’ll let them know to call you when you’re in the area.
7:13:02 Zimmerman: Thanks.
Dispatcher: You’re welcome. – Call Ends 7:13:07
The Critical Three Minutes
Zimmerman shoots and kills Martin three minutes after the phone call ends.
How do we know that?
All 911 calls are timed and this is how we know that Zimmerman’s call ended at 7:13 pm. During another timed 911 call from the resident of a townhouse reporting a fight between two individuals in the yard behind the townhouse, a shot abruptly punctuates a terrified scream for help at 7:16 pm.
Martin’s girlfriend calls him at 7:12 pm, which has been verified by cellular phone records for both phones.
Through counsel for Martin’s parents, she provided a statement in which she said Trayvon expressed concern about a man following him. She told him to run. Then she heard Martin say,
What are you following me for?
This was followed by a man’s voice responding,
What are you doing here?
She said that she heard the sound of pushing and then Trayvon said,
Get off me, get off me.
Martin’s headset suddenly went silent. She attempted to call him back immediately, but was unable to reach him.
That call ended at 7:16 pm.
What Happened Next
Officer Timothy Smith of the Sanford Police Department was the first to arrive at the scene of the shooting at 7:17 pm.
Police recovered Martin’s cellphone from the wet grass near his body. The Arizona Iced Tea and Skittles were found inside the pouch pocket of his hoodie.
The Autopsy Report
According to the autopsy report, the fatal shot was fired straight-on from an intermediate distance and entered Trayvon’s chest 1 inch to the left of the midline and 1/2 inch below his left nipple. It perforated the right ventricle of his heart and perforated his left lung, collapsing both lungs. There was no exit wound. The trajectory of the shot was front to back, neither up nor down, neither to the left nor to the right.
Based on the 2 inch X 2 inch smoke ring with stippling around the 3/8 inch entry wound, Dr. Vincent J.D. di Maio, the former Medical Examiner for Bexar County (San Antonio) estimated that the muzzle of the gun was 2 to 4 inches from Trayvon’s chest when Zimmerman fired the fatal shot.
The Assistant Medical Examiner who performed the autopsy also reported that Martin had severe global edema (i.e., swelling) to both hemispheres of his brain.
Zimmerman’s Statement
Zimmerman claims he followed the dispatcher’s advice and was returning to his vehicle when Martin approached him from behind his left shoulder and asked him,
Why are you following me?
[Note the use of the present tense, which suggests he has not given up looking for Martin, is not returning to his vehicle, and is not approached from behind (h/t KrisAinTX)]
Martin’s girlfriend corroborates Martin’s question and use of the present tense, if not the context in which Zimmerman claims it was asked.
Zimmerman claims he then asked Martin,
What are you doing here?
Martin’s girlfriend corroborates Zimmerman’s response.
Zimmerman’s Arrest
When Officer Smith arrived at the scene at 7:17 pm, a minute after the shooting, he saw Martin lying face down in the grass and Zimmerman standing nearby.
Zimmerman was not attempting to aid or provide CPR to Martin and there is no reference in Smith’s report to Zimmerman being upset or crying.
After retrieving Zimmerman’s gun and holster from inside his waistband, he arrested and handcuffed him with his hands behind his back and placed him in the back seat of his patrol vehicle.
Cool As A Cucumber
When an EMT checked Zimmerman in the patrol vehicle at 7:41 pm his pulse, blood pressure, and all of his vital signs were normal. Here is his report:
Assessment 1941 [7:41 pm]
Patient Conscious
Breathing Quality Adult Normal 12-20 [which is normal, not panting or out of breath]No External Hemorrhage noted; Mucuous Membrane Normal
Central Body Color Normal
Extremities Normal
Within Normal Limits (Airway, Breathing Quality, Accessory Muscle Use, Chest Rise, Radial Pulse, Skin Temp, Skin Moisture [not sweating], Skin Turgor [not showing signs of dehydration], Cap Refill [blood circulation is normal], Pupil Size and Reaction.
[Or as Crane Station, a former RN says, He's cool as a cucumber, which seems unusual for a person who minutes earlier killed someone and is now under arrest while sitting in the rear seat of a police vehicle with his hands handcuffed behind his back ]
Cause of Injury [to Zimmerman]: Struck by blunt/thrown object. (9640) [Emphasis supplied]
Mechanism of Injury: Blunt
Patient says he was assaulted and his head was struck on the pavement.
Pt’s GCS = 15 [Glascow Coma Scale, which is a level of consciousness scale and 15 is normal] and he is warm and dry with normal skin color. Pt has abrasions to his forehead + bleeding/tenderness to his nose and a small laceration to the back of his head. All injuries have minor bleeding. Pt also denies LOC [loss of consciousness], neck/back pain, and he has + PMS [pulse motor sensory function] X 4 [in all extremeties] with – paresthesia [no tingling]
[That means his pulse, motor, and sensory functions were all okay and functioning normally]
Crane-Station’s Take
Crane-Station put it best,
How could a guy be talking to his girlfriend and killing somebody at the same time?
Who Screamed For Help?
The FBI Digital Examination Laboratory has reported that identification of the person screaming for help during the 911 call is not possible due to the poor quality of the original recording.
Zimmerman, backed by his father and unidentified family members, claims he is the person screaming for help. A neighbor named John claims he saw Zimmerman calling for help.
Martin’s mother claims Trayvon is the person screaming for help. Two audiologists working independently of each other using different methodologies to clean up background noise and focus on clarifying the scream have excluded Zimmerman as the source of the scream to a reasonable scientific certainty.
The Witness Named John
Claims that he saw Martin on top of John beating him about the head and heard Zimmerman calling for help. He shut and locked his sliding glass door and went upstairs to call 911. He heard the shot as he was going up the stairs. When he looked out a bedroom window, he saw Martin lying face down in the grass, apparently dead, and Zimmerman standing next to him.
He did not see the beginning or the end of the fight and that also appears to be the case with the other witnesses.
Other Witnesses
Other witnesses reported bits and pieces of this tragic event. I am still reviewing their statement but have nothing definitive or new to report yet.
Conclusion
Given Zimmerman’s state of mind and intent, I believe he was the aggressor and did not act in self-defense. I also believe he attacked Martin while Martin was talking to his girlfriend and Martin may have struck him with the cell phone several times in self-defense causing the injuries treated by the EMT.
153 Comments
he is dead at the hands of a bully…i myself was threatened by a bully this week…i may have to apply theTn.law`of malicious harrasment…love you MB,for standing up for the little ,guy,and girl
Cool as a cucumber.
Sitting on a curb.
Normal vital signs
Not breaking a sweat
Not at all upset, not breathing fast, not nauseated or crying or light-headed.
Certainly not attempting to help the victim by turning him over to open the airway, put pressure on the wound or anything.
This man was eerily calm, given that, as he claims, in the moments prior, he was fighting for his life on a sidewalk. Boy, he settled right back down after somebody tried to kill him/s.
“who threw the first punch.” ;so it’s an established FACT that the two persons were engaged in a altercation where punches were thrown? (haven’t been following this closely so pardon my not ‘being up to speed’)
RE “Other witnesses reported bits and pieces of this tragic event. I am still reviewing their statement but have nothing definitive or new to report yet.” ;
http://www.democracynow.org/2012/5/18/ben_jealous_heartbreaking_trayvon_tapes_capture
There’s also this
Personally, the ‘witness’ who says he saw Martin on top of Zimmerman hitting him in an MMA manner I immediately want to get on the witness stand; if he continues to state the same, I go after him for perjury. If MMA style hitting was going on ,Zimmerman’s ‘injuries’ would have been a lot worse(broken nose,fractured eye socket, black eyes at a minimum,etc.)
The other thing is that another witness saw Z on top of T after the shooting, “with his hands on [T's] neck or chest…”
document dump, page 102 of 183, in the written witness statement:
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/Zimmerman_Discovery.pdf
So many ways to avoid this death, only one way for it to happen – guy with the gun pulls the trigger. Otherwise, it is nothing more than a street fist fight – a few bruises, T’s claim against Z’s claim.
What do we do? Defend the gun owners, of course.
“AMY GOODMAN: While the two women said that Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman were not fighting at the time of the shooting, another local resident gave a conflicting account.
WITNESS: There was a black man with a black hoodie on top of either a white guy, or now that I found out I think he was a Hispanic guy with a red sweatshirt on on the ground, yelling out ‘Help!’ And then you know I tried to tell him, ‘Get out of here,’ you know, ‘Stop,’ or whatever. And then the one guy on top in the black hoodie was pretty much just throwing down blows on the guy kind of MMA-style…yeah, like a ground-and-pound, on the concrete at this point. So at this point I
told him I was calling 911, I locked my door, went inside, heard a pop, never heard a gunshot before so I didn’t know if it was a rock or something like that. We ran upstairs. As soon as I got upstairs I
looked down below and then I saw the guy in the black hoodie pretty much just laid out on the ground.”
Unless Z was doing chest compressions, this witness statement is a problem for Z.
It will be difficult to argue rescue CPR though, because M was found face down.
(face-down position is somewhere in the document)
Thanks so much for walking us through this, Masoninblue.
Catastrophic system disruption at the core of it:
As the arterial blood spurts out of the wound, the damaged 4-chamber pulsatile flow heart pump is increasingly ischemic and comes to a stop (<2 minutes to stop with this type of damage?). In parallel, the perforated lymphatic system at that location means the lymph collects around the brain as that system also comes to a stop hence the brain edema. The ischemic brain is dying faster in this case which under normal conditions after the heart has stopped in an intact system is just under 5 minutes.
Seeing the probable trajectory of the bullet through the heart of his body and suddenly realizing he is about to die, "fear" doesn't encompass the perceptual awareness, thoughts and somatic sensations that pass through Trayvon at the moment the adrenaline starts to kick in as the adrenaline is already engaged for the one who has also already made a choice to use the gun. What does a 17 year old think and feel in the last moments of consciousness and how could he have possibly been prepared for it?
Sorry, confused here, who is sitting on whom?
Same for those decapitated.
i can not read this stuff anymore,the depth of sadness,brings me to depression…poor kid,poor america with its blazing guns and utter stupidity
“I also believe he attacked Martin”
You believed that before you saw the evidence, Mason: can you now point to any facts that support your preconception?
And there’s this VERY important, yet much overlooked tidbit:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/17/evidence-trayvon-martin_n_1525285.html
There’s been much mention of the trace amount of THC in Trayvon’s blood, but ZERO (that I’ve heard) about these
medsdrugs Zimmerman was on.They tested Martin’s blood, but not that of the shooter. Something’s very wrong in Sanford.
VERY wrong.
Hmm…where’d my comment go?
One more time…
That’s from HuffPo (I’m thinking the link is being rejected?)
See it in the activity thread ezpz, don’t know about here.
Anyhow, Mason back in a sec, but Z was not drug tested that night, so this issue may not come up. I am not a lawyer, so I do not know for sure though.
One possibility is that Zimmerman (who outweighed Martin) had Martin pinned to the ground and was kneeling atop him when he pulled his gun from his waistband. Martin then began screaming hysterically. Zimmerman pointed the gun straight to Martin’s chest at close range and then murdered him.
It may be that at one time Martin was atop Zimmerman (as at least one witness reported), but Zimmerman rolled him and got on top. That’s why other witnesses reported seeing Zimmerman on top. My suggestion accounts for the straight trajectory of the bullet, the close range and Martin’s screaming.
“severe global edema (i.e., swelling) to both hemispheres of his brain”
per the ME’s note.
“In parallel, the perforated lymphatic system at that location means the lymph collects around the brain as that system also comes to a stop hence the brain edema.”
I disagree with your above statement. Perforated lymphatic system at WHAT location? The thoracic area? And that will cause SEVERE cerebral edema?
That wouldn’t cause sever global edema to both hemispheres. Sure a little edema is expected, but severe global edema in both hemispheres? No, I’m not buying it.
IMHO, without actually examining the body or further details, the global cerebral edema is properly accounted for by the story thus far. IMHO.
However brain trauma, ie. Z attacking T, or choking him, could.
Once again, IMHO.
I just don’t see how severe global cerebral edema can be accounted for y the story thus far.
I hope this is not serious, Katie, about the bully I mean. Sounds kinda though. You don’t have to share details, but I hope this person leaves you alone. What is with bullies anyway? Don’t they have other things to do with their time?
OMG I hope I got the name right! (blush)
If by ‘activity thread’ you mean under my account, it seems to be there — a few times, actually because I kept trying, but they all seem to be incomplete. Maybe something is being automatically rejected? A Huff link?
What I was trying to say is that Zimmerman was on “uppers and downers” (Adderall and Temazepam), both of which can cause serious side effects such as agitation, mood swings, and more. Yet Zimmerman, the shooter, was not tested, but the unarmed teenage victim, Trayvon, WAS. Something’s wrong with that picture.
I give up.
Tried replying – didn’t go through.
“I just don’t see how severe global cerebral edema can be accounted for y the story thus far.”
Me, either: no strangulation marks, no sign of blows to the head, no sign of any violence done to Martin aside from the gunshot. What the hell did cause that?
Nope. I have always been working from the evidence and specifically mentioned what I was basing my theory on, while you have steadfastly accepted Zimmerman’s ridiculous claim of self-defense that, even if true, still does not constitute self-defense.
Why? Because his injuries are minor and he did not have to use deadly force to prevent being killed or seriously injured.
Based on what I have read so far, the only witness who supports Zimmerman is John who sounds like a crazy man describing martial arts stuff that never happened and, of course, no one else saw.
I neither care if you believe me or not, nor what you believe, but do not mischaracterize what I say.
Chilling.
I agree. I think he executed Trayvon with a straight-on gunshot to the heart.
thanks for your concern,im going to see my lawyer Mon. a strange turn of events,but we do have malicious harassment laws here.The cretin,owns a work out gym,you can imagine how pumped up he is.
please dear deity,save us from this wanton vicious hate.humankind is at the precipice again
he could have just walked away
i think though its cold,i might have to leave the deep south and relocate to Vermont,the southern mentality is just too teh stoopit,for me to live with
Been following this topic here backwards as well as forwards, wanted to add this to days-ago thread. GZ had a broken nose. A really good way to break a nose is a head-butt. No punch required, can be done while sat upon or hands restrained.
That would be the witness, John, who told the police that he saw Martin straddling Zimmerman and hitting him in the head repeatedly, but he did not see the beginning or end of the fight and he did not see Martin gripping Zimmerman’s head and banging it repeatedly into the sidewalk, which is what Zimmerman claimed.
He did not identify them by name. He identified them by clothing.
Mason, do you know if Trayvon’s cell phone was examined for forensic evidence? Also, were Trayvon’s clothes examined for DNA from a source other than himself? Do you know if Zimmerman left the police station the night of the shooting wearing the same clothes he was wearing when the shooting occurred? Do you know if Zimmerman’s clothes were forensically examined following the shooting?
I have so many questions because I’m not a lawyer. Also, would it be legally beneficial to the case the prosecution is building to request a psychiatric/psychological evaluation of Zimmerman? (Such an evaluation might address Z’s state of mind at the time of the shooting.)
BTW, a note of thanks to you for your posts – you’re a good teacher.
Thanks, for the compliment.
Yes, Trayvon’s phone and phone records have been searched and analyzed.
Yes, all of Zimmerman’s clothes, including underwear, socks and shoes were seized and booked into evidence. They also have been forensically examined. Same with the gun. They locked him alone in the interview room at the police department until his wife arrived with a fresh set of clothes. Then they took his clothes and interviewed him.
For more information, read the documents in the document dump. It’s a PDF file. Fascinating stuff.
Unless Zimmerman raises a mental defense, such as insanity or diminished capacity, which he has not done, the prosecution cannot have him shrunk out.
You are making a good case, but is this a murder case? We have two frightened individuals one of whom had a gun. He bears some responsibility for what he does with that gun, no doubt.
Do not hesitate to get a restraining order, if you are concerned for your safety and peace of mind. They are easy to get. I don’t know about the weekend, but during the week you can go to the county courthouse and get a form to fill out in the prosecutor’s office. Fill it out and they will have the Sheriff serve a copy of it on the bully.
The order prohibits the bully from contacting you and warns him that he will be arrested and taken to jail, if he violates the order. The order is temporary. That is, it is set to expire within a certain period of time, usually a week and a court hearing is set for that day. At that time the court will extend the order for a period of a year, unless the bully provides good cause not to extend it. Usually they don’t show up. Even if they do, judges usually extend the order regardless.
There is no guarantee that the bully will abide by the order, but most do. If you have any concerns about that, go stay with a friend or relative for awhile and when you return home, make sure you have someone with you, just in case.
Back to the closed for the weekend deal. Try calling the Sheriff’s Office non-emergency number and ask them if you can get a form from them. They should be set up to handle that.
Good luck.
Zimmerman was not a combat veteran, folks who still would have elevated vitals. His vitals being normal after an incident such as this totally freak me out. Z is psychotic or a paranormal human, the vast majority of people are simply not wired that way.
Something about that “Flight or Flight” response which is hard wired into human psychology.
Yes, I think it was a heat-of-passion killing, but it’s also a case that could very well end up plea bargained down to manslaughter or negligent homicide.
Yeah, I find his ho-hum response disturbing. Not at all what I would expect from someone who killed someone for the first time in his life after desperately fighting for his life.
That’s cold.
BTW, in the previous comment, I referred to heat of passion, and by that I meant anger.
Good point. I had not thought of that.
West Coast Boy and West Coast Girl don’t fit in here either, and never will for that matter.
I’ve long thought about Vermont, but never been there. Seems like it would be too cold.
Be safe.
Wait a second.
Zimmerman claims he shot Martin when Martin was on top of him. That would mean that Zimmerman would have had to move Martin’s body to get away since it would have still be on top of him, at least partially.
So how come Martin’s blood wasn’t all over Zimmerman? Wouldn’t a wound like that immediately bleed? Wouldn’t a lot of it get on Zimmerman before he could push the body away? Why when we see the video of him being escorted into the polices station we don’t see his front covered with blood?
You be welcome and thank you for your fine work on the news roundup.
Actually, wounds like that do not bleed a lot and there was very little blood in his clothing above the wound.
We would more likely expect high velocity blood spatter from the slug impacting the flesh. Produces a fine spray, but I don’t know if the crime lab found blood spatter on Zimmerman’s clothes or shooting-hand sleeve.
I haven’t gotten through the document dump yet. Hope to finish that tomorrow.
Happened to me the other day also and I still have no idea wtf was going on as Crane said she saw the comments.
Thanks for the links, ubet.
For further information, check the document dump.
Yeah, I don’t have a clue either.
Sorry y’all are having trouble.
Fred, did you get my email?
This is going to be hard to reconcile:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/19/trayvon-martin-7-eleven-video_n_1529745.html
Hoodie is being worn
http://www.democracynow.org/2012/5/18/i_know_he_was_scared_trayvon
“GIRLFRIEND: He gonna start walking. And then the phone hung up and then I called him back again. And then, I said, ‘What are you doing?’ He said he’s walking, and he said this man is still following him, behind the car. He put his hoodie on.
Think you’re onto something with “but it’s also a case that could very well end up plea bargained down to manslaughter or negligent homicide.”
And like I said the other day, Martin’s family will be left with what the Goldman family had to do.
Yes, I got your email and will respond tomorrow. Been too busy writing these blogs.
Thanks, Bruce.
Manana.
It’s entirely possible this was a back and forth where both men were tussling and rolling to try and get the upper hand.
The bigger difference being that Zimmerman knew the whole time that he was armed. He left the vehicle to follow this kid armed for a confrontation. That does not make him a victim, that makes him an agressor.
Zimmerman actually had a fractured nose and black eyes(as is typical with fracture to nose.) He also had stitches.
That does not negate my belief that he should be disqualified from arguing self defense. Because yet again, he disregarded a 911 dispatcher who told him not to follow this kid. He created this situation. He became the agressor when he chose to follow Trayvon.
Me: “You believed that (he attacked Martin) before you saw the evidence, Mason”
You (today): “Nope. I have always been working from the evidence”
You (day before yesterday): “Since before he was charged, I have consistently said I thought he murdered Martin.”
—————–
You, again: “while you have steadfastly accepted Zimmerman’s ridiculous claim of self-defense”
Me:
“If Z went up to M and started throwing punches he should be convicted of murder 2, at least.”
“There are plenty of legitimate criticisms of Zimmerman’s actions and mental state”
“That does not, of course, absolve him of responsibility in creating the situation in the first place.”
“Can we postpone that decision until we actually have all the facts?”
“while there is some physical evidence for it there are still lots of question marks (at least in my mind).”
Want more? There have been several long threads on this and there are many examples that you are lieing through your teeth in accusing me of “steadfastly accepted Zimmerman’s ridiculous claim of self-defense”
Here, have another: “please note that your opinion was formed prior to getting the autopsy results. I’m doing my best to keep an open mind”
Or two: “I am still waiting to see the autopsy and forensic reports”
My “steadfast” position, Mason, has been “no one should have reached any conclusions yet”. Yours has been “I have consistently said I thought he murdered Martin.”
Honestly, I had expected better of you than the standard “deny and lie” bullshit. It gives me no pleasure to say this (I hate discovering I’ve overestimated people) but the simple fact of the matter is that you, Sir, are a liar.
Zimmerman its been reported has had problems with a middle eastern co worker Trayvon looks like me if I had short hair and muscles in high school. My bro and me have been mistaken for middle eastern a few times.
Zimmerman maybe Hispanic but he does not know us the Moros conqured Spain for 400 years.
Get Zimmerman to answer what race he thought Trayvon was at first before he heard the news.
If he says Middle Eastern we got him.
Follow up question ask him his feelings about Middle Eastern types.
Then ask him a question about his own race Whites won’t know this so his lawyer won’t prepare him.
No matter how dark racist hispanics all identify with Spain and claim little Indian or African blood.
Point out to Zimmerman spain was conquered by the Moors African and Arab mix for 400 years right before Spain conquered Peru and you might break him.
Do we have more photos of Zimmerman and his mom ask him if he keeps his hair short because its curly.
Point out curly hair only comes from White or African genes not American Indian genes ( South Americans, Mexicans etc all consider ourselves American not USA American but from the Hemisphere Yankee prejudice not withstanding).
Zimmerman I think is in denial or ignorance as to who he is so break his mind.
If we can show Zimmerman identified as White despite his obvious color well ever dark person on the jury will see Zimmerman for what he is he hates himself and everyone who reminds him of himself and gets angry denying it.
Find the color of the woman he assulted as a security guard at the Rave find the color of the undercover police person he assulted.
If they are both kinda of dark follow up:)
Uh Zimmerman was on neighborhood watch unless he just moved there he since he was on neighborhood watch should have known the area.
New neighbors in my old home town liked to question why I was at a members only beach and we would say we lived here 20 years and describe every old time neighbor on the block.
So was Zimmerman in his neighborhood when he saw Trayvon? Was Zimmerman in his neighborhood watch when he shot Trayvon and could not tell the police where he was?
Did Zimmerman ask Trayvon the question neighborhood watch types asked me and my bro do you live here?
So did Zimmerman know where he was was he in his neighborhood watch area? the fucker can’t even give his own address why I guess he knew he was out of his jurisdiction after all if you call for back up from the police at first then the target moves then you can’t trust giving a cop your address something is funny.
Is it pure irony or a sign that the address Zimmerman leaves is 111 RETREAT VIEW…..circle??? Who names their street retreat view? Anyways, thoughtful and provocative account of a crazy story, from both sides. Rec’d. So when’s the verdict? 2013?
Since he was stalking Trayvon and Trayvon might seek revenge for being profiled by some clown, z didn’t want to say his address within earshot of Trayvon.
My thinking goes somewhere in the altercation Trayvon became aware of the gun on his stalker. Me in that position , as any rational person would , if possible would mount this creep with the intent to knock him out in a self preservation move to prevent this nut case from using his gun.
This would account for the raining of blows described by one witness.
Note that the girlfriend’s comments about the incident were relayed weeks after the shooting – she did not come forward initially, and then she talked to Martin’s lawyer, not the police. Her version of events will be likely tainted, and after weeks unreliable.
Also, the NY Times or some paper had an internet graphic & image of the neighborhood that made it much easier to figure out Zimmerman’s townhouse, the cut-through from 7-11, the clubhouse & mailboxes, the cut-through going to Martin’s house, the grassy area between 2 rows of houses where Martin died not far from the cut-through.
The vehicle was in front of a cut-through across from the mailboxes to the side of the clubhouse. That cut-through leads to the grassy area between 2 rows of townhouses, the far end is where Trayvon Martin was staying and near the back entrance to the community.
Here are pictures of the community to help orient:
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/04/02/us/the-events-leading-to-the-shooting-of-trayvon-martin.html
Zimmerman also outweighed by Martin by 42 pounds.
No, he definitely did not have any stitches.
I’ll be the very first to admit I know very little about the law. But one thing you wrote gives me a pit of pause:
Considering the fact that he was carrying a loaded firearm, his intent can be inferred as either paranoid or hostile. Though there were no eye witnesses, it’s reasonable to speculate that he was displaying the weapon because that’s what people who feel the need to be armed all of the time do. I know that’s not a legal opinion and I know there is no way of proving that in court but it’s a reasonable inference. Let’s also keep in mind that Zimmerman even approaching Martin also gives us a glimpse of intent as Martin wasn’t doing anything but walking back from a convenience store. That’s still not illegal or even suspicious activity legally speaking, even if doing so while being young, black and hooded.
Thanks Masoninblue for the updates and cogent consideration. Question: Does Z loose self-defense claim, as initiator of contact, by asking someone what they’re doing?
If not, then he’s off. Only the personal military industrial complex benefits from this mess. BTW, body armor prices are coming down lately, larger market? Armored hoodies coming soon to your local gun shop. Its going to take some time before American males get over their Gunsmoke and Dirty Harry complexities, but I like “guy” movies,.. too damn much,… Roy Rogers set my generation’s brains up for Nam ruination. Desert Storm just continued the theme. We American macho males are taught to become Spartans with cowboy hats and Glocks. As such, shit happens.
One more thing: Thank you for following this and giving us a much more thorough analysis than we could ever get from the toady media.
Poor you! It appears that you’ve overestimated everybody on this blog. I’d invite you to leave before you’ve become hopelessly contaminated but your comments and the fact that you stalk people from one thread to the next suggests that it’s too late. The real irony is that you call yourself “ironymeter”.
I am not going to engage in a mud-slinging contest with you.
The issue is not about you and your perceptions of me.
Please go elsewhere, or write your own blog, if you cannot maintain a civil and respectful tone toward others in your comments.
Retreat View Circle . . . Yes, that is a bizarre correspondence and a really weird name for a place.
With a name like that, one would almost expect chaotic things to happen there.
It doesn’t make sense to criticize Zimmerman for not administering CPR to Martin as he was shot in the heart. Quite obviously someone shot in the heart has died immediately with no hope of reviving him. Also, Zimmerman’s vitals were taken close to a half hour after the shooting, plenty of time for his heart rate to slow down, his sweat to dry and his breathing to normalize.
“Considering the fact that he was carrying a loaded firearm, his intent can be inferred as either paranoid or hostile.”
Margaret, I think your yankee slip is showing. Down here in the rebel south, (Orlando, FL has more southern drawl than expected) its fast becoming normal to carry concealed, even chic to some extent; knowing you can blow-away anyone who messes with you is a hellofa confidence booster. Whole new levels of power issues come into play for the carriers, concomitant fear issues for the non-participants. TM was just one of the later. If you don’t carry, show respect. TM just wasn’t read into the new southern paradigm shift.
Standard balance of power / survival considerations since we jumped outtada trees; nothin new here. Heck, Tampa’s Repub Conflab this fall is going to have free gun-cleaning at the hat and firearm checkin right across the street. Courtesy of our FL Governor.
Pulling my tongue from my cheek; regretfully, we’re regressing here folks, because there is money to be made in any new fashion statement, even if its deadly.
I don’t like lynch mobs. I’ll just leave it at that.
Unless I am mistaken, we are saying the same thing.
There are a lot of bits and pieces of evidence that, when put together like a puzzle, paint a pretty damning picture of George Zimmerman’s state of mind and his intent regarding Trayvon Martin.
This is circumstantial evidence and people often get convicted on the basis of circumstantial evidence.
For example, if there is no snow on the ground when we go to bed at night and we get up in the morning and see fresh snow on the ground, we can reasonably infer that it snowed during the night. We do need to have seen it snow, which is direct evidence, to reach that conclusion.
Sometimes circumstantial evidence is more powerful than direct evidence. For example, eyewitnesses are frequently mistaken and eyewitness testimony probably is one of the least accurate and reliable types of evidence.
In most states, jurors are instructed that the law makes no distinction between direct and circumstantial evidence. One is not necessarily more accurate and reliable than the other and it is up to the jury to decide how much weight to assign to the evidence. In a criminal case, they must be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that the prosecution has overcome the presumption of innocence and proven the defendant guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
We do not have to believe Zimmerman’s story. We can compare it to all of the other evidence in the case and evaluate it in light of reason and experience, which is what you have done.
My point in my previous article was that Zimmerman did not break any law when he disregarded the dispatcher’s request not to follow Martin. In other words, he is not automatically guilty because he did that.
Nevertheless, we can and should consider his decision to be evidence of his state of mind and intent. When we do that, it seems as likely that he was the aggressor as it was that it snowed the night before in the example that I provided.
Plus, there’s more evidence to support that inference, which I have discussed.
Another point is Zimmerman’s credibility. During his conversation with the dispatcher, he twice referred to Trayvon’s age as late teens, but when he testified at his bond hearing after apologizing to Trayvon’s parents, he said he thought Trayvon was in his mid twenties.
Since he must have known that Trayvon was 17 when he testified, because it had been all over the news, I find it difficult to believe that he told the truth when he testified that he thought he was in his mid twenties.
If I were the prosecutor, I would confront him with this and all other inconsistencies and argue to the jury that he is not credible and his claim of self-defense should be rejected.
Masoninblue wrote:
“..while you have steadfastly accepted Zimmerman’s ridiculous claim of self-defense that, even if true, still does not constitute self-defense.
Why? Because his injuries are minor and he did not have to use deadly force to prevent being killed or seriously injured.”
This is a ridiculous statement. If you are being attacked, you’re not going to stop and think, “Hmm, the injuries I’m sustaining here are minor. I think I’ll just hold off on using this gun while this guy attacks me.”
“cool as a cucumber” vital signs less than a half hour after following and shooting someone? Indicates ‘stalker’ and ‘agressor’ rather than ‘victim’ and necessity for ‘self-defense’ activity. The fact that he’s part Hispanic does not negate racism, not at all. Reminds me of Coleman Young, former mayor of Detroit, saying black people by virtue of their minority status can’t be racist. I’m white and I grew up in Detroit. I’ve most certainly was the victim of the racism that Mr. Young said was non-existent.
Don’t know what the problem could be here ezpz.:(
If someone is just sitting in a car cooling off, why would his heart be racing nearly 30 minutes after the confrontation? At this point I think someone needs to posts some evidence that proves Zimmerman’s heart-rate should still be high when his pulse was taken – there’s no point in going back and forth on this without evidence. Even if his pulse rate should’ve been high, there’s no way to prove what was or wasn’t running through his mind.
Do I understand you to be saying that he knew he shot Martin in the heart, so there was no point in trying to do CPR, or even to call 911 to specifically request an ambulance?
Yes, I know a cop was on the way, but why wait for him to arrive, assess the situation and call an ambulance?
Why wait when time may be of the essence?
Isn’t deliberately delaying the arrival of medical care a form of murder?
Keep in mind that it was dark and Martin’s wound had bled very little. The wound was not easy to see and he was lying on his stomach. There was no exit wound on his back.
How could the shooter have known that he shot Martin in the heart, unless he intended to do so, aimed at the heart, and pulled the trigger?
You seem to be conceding that Zimmerman aimed and shot him in the heart.
That’s not self-defense. It’s murder.
“Nevertheless, we can and should consider his decision to be evidence of his state of mind and intent. When we do that, it seems as likely that he was the aggressor as it was that it snowed the night before in the example that I provided.” Mason, respected friend, I do so wish you would give equal consideration to the implications of the fact that Trayvon chose to not just continue on home to the safety of his father’s friend’s home. What does that fact say to us about Trayvon’s state of mind? (As long as we are going to continue to insist on playing the “Let’s make guesses about the protagonists’ state of mind” game.) To me, tht can only be taken as an indication that Trayvon was more interested in confrontation than safety. I am amazed at the blind spot you are showing wrt this inconvenient fact.
Actually, this issue often comes up in homicide trials. Prosecutors often put on evidence that the defendant intended to kill the victim because he or she did not display any signs of emotional distress after the killing.
Most people are extremely distressed for a long time after they kill someone the first time.
You seem to fail to understand that things are not so easy to deal with in the heat of the moment. He was likely in shock. The cops showed up ONE MINUTE later. It’s understandable that someone might need a minute to let what happened sink in. Also, if someone is in shock, does their heart race like crazy?
If Zimmerman aimed and shot him in the heart, that could very well be self-defense if Martin was coming at him.
Well, you better stop and think, because if you don’t, you may have committed a murder and you will go to prison for a long time.
The legal rule is: You cannot use deadly force to defend yourself unless you REASONABLY believe you are imminent danger of being killed or suffering grievous bodily injury and it’s REASONABLY NECESSARY to use deadly force to defend yourself.
Stand Your Ground is not a license to kill. It means you do not have a duty to retreat. You still have to abide by the rule I mentioned.
The girlfriend says Trayvon initially ran away from Zimmerman, who followed and confronted him.
By the way, I am happy to see you back. I was worried about your health and I am relieved to find out you’re on the mend and back in the saddle.
Welcome back.
Ditto comment above, rc, good to see you are feeling better.
i recall the story
THE MOST DANGEROUS GAME
he hunted his prey,and shot him,for all intents and purposes
If someone is physically attacking you, that’s reason enough to retaliate with deadly force. This person could be a martial arts expert but even if not the person could get you on the ground and gouge your eyes out. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not on GZ’s side. I think he’s a douche for patrolling the neighborhood with a gun, that’s just asking for trouble. At the least he should’ve brandished the gun to scare off Trayvon and that should’ve been the end of it. But if someone attacks you, then it’s game on.
Yes, but that is not what Zimmerman claims.
He says he was lying on his back and Martin was slamming his head into a concrete sidewalk. If he had fired his gun from that position, I would expect to see an upward trajectory of the bullet in his body with a deviation to the right or left, depending on whether he fired the gun with his right or left hand. Instead, it was a straight on shot through the right ventricle of the heart and the left lung with no deviation up or down or right or left.I also would expect to have seen a contact wound, but it wasn’t.
The muzzle of the gun was 2 to 4 inches away when the fatal shot was fired.
if you follow somebody,and confront them,then TM was allowed to defend himself from a stalker
Seriously, you need to rethink your position on self-defense, especially if you own or carry a gun, because it conflicts with the law.
Please reread my comment @79 where I set out the law.
You are certainly free to disagree with the law, but you better abide by it, if you shoot someone, or you may go to prison for a long time.
If a tall teenager is attacking you it’s reasonable to assume you may be in danger of suffering grievous bodily injury, period.
In addition to killing an unarmed teenager 25 minutes earlier after supposedly almost having been beaten to death, assuming you believe his story, he was sitting in the back seat of a police vehicle with his hands handcuffed behind his back. So he had the added stressor, to think about possibly going to jail and being prosecuted, convicted and sent to prison for a very long time.
I don’t know about you, but I would be totally freaked out and probably die of a heart attack or stroke right on the spot.
I can easily see GZ making the shot from this position.
He wasn’t tall. He was a kid. He was 5’11″ and only weighed 158 lbs. He was basically a beanpole.
Zimmerman was either 5’7″ or 5’9″ and weighed 200 lbs.
A 42 pound weight advantage in a close-in struggle is a huge advantage.
Well, I cannot, so we will have to agree to disagree on this issue.
So then the paramedics were wrong for performing CPR at the scene then, Z was the only person who did anything possible right that night, even the paramedics fucked up for trying to save the boy, number one, richlatta, but more important, just how did Z know for sure the boy was shot in the heart and dead, unless Z intentionally shot him in the heart and killed him?
Wait, the police attempted rescue as well, so they fucked up too I guess. They didn’t know about the kill shot though, no. Only Z knew about that kill shot. Don’t yell back at me BTW, this is the stuff that will more likely than not be brought out at a trial: Zimmerman was the only person at the scene not attempting rescue, because Z delivered the kill shot and he knew it.
It’s reasonable to think TM may know martial arts, especially if he’s attacking despite the weight difference.
The fact that Z wasn’t attempting CPR (as if he automatically should know how to do it) isn’t proof of anything.
If someone attacks you physically, there’s no way to know what the outcome may be, therefore it’s reasonable to respond with deadly force.
Well you’re right, of course. Thing is though, Z was in a position of making sure everything in that community was safe and sound. He knew all about how to respond with deadly force and kill, but nothing about how to perform basic CPR ( take T totally out of this for a moment). I think it’s weird for a safety officer to know how to kill, but not how to rescue.
Well, clearly he’s a douchebag.
Thanks, Margaret.
And a late happy birthday to you.
Please reread that sentence and explain to us why you believe it makes any sense.
You are sounding like a right wing troll.
he also may have had a poison blow pipe,cause he was dark/
why not just kill them after they have paid for their skittles,and be totally sure,the threat is eliminated/
ditto to Meg
Yes, if the confrontation involves physical force.
I doubt that mere words would ever be sufficient justification for the use of force.
Touche.
Thanks to you and the wonderful Crane-Station for your kind thoughts. I cannot give too much credibility to the girlfriend’s input, not after noting that she did not tell her story to anyone for weeks after the event, according to what I’ve read. Imagine how you would regard John’s interview testimony if he never gave it until the case was already a national cause-celebre??? We’d all have to be full of questions about it, wouldn’t we? Just trying to play the Henry Fonda role here, which I am quite sure you can appreciate ;-)respected friend.
What I am saying is that he is clearly in a difficult situation, and his acquittal is not a given.
i resent you’re claim that I sound like a right-wing troll. Can’t handle a different opinion from your own? The maybe the internet is not for you. My statement is clear enough and perfectly logical. Anyone who is getting physically attacked has the right to defend him/herself. If they happen to use deadly force then that spells bad news for the attacker who obviously made a poor decision.
not if he went looking for the altercation,and did not desist when told to.aggressor,aggressor all the way,period
If Zimmerman was following him but then Martin turned around and physically attacked Zimmerman then Martin was the aggressor.
Maybe Martin was Standing His Ground or doesn’t he have an equal claim to Stand Your Ground ?
Though both individuals had a right to be where they were when they encountered each other, I believe Trayvon’s right to be greater than that of Z – Trayvon was heading home and Z was nowhere near his home because he was stalking Trayvon. Aggressor? IMO Z, the armed vigilante, became the aggressor as soon as he initiated his stalking of Trayvon. Note that Z was still in the stalking mode when Trayvon asked him “Why are you following me?” and Z counters with “What are you doing here?”
According to Zimmerman, he was heading back to his car when Martin confronted him with that statement. I don’t see how the prosecution will be able to prove otherwise.
Why did Z exit his car? Just a little stroll in the cold rain?
You can’t prove it, but why would Martin go out of his way to confront Zimmerman after running to lose Zimmerman?
no,no,he has to be sacrificed cause he was black and spooky/
He exited his car because he’s an idiot who thought Martin looked suspicious just because he was walking through a neighborhood and “looking around” so he wanted to keep track of what Martin was up to and apparently get the police to do something about it, what I haven’t a clue.
Not sure I understand what you are saying here, do not mean to intrude, if you were answering a question from someone else. Are you answering the question ‘Why did Zimmerman get out of his car?’?
Maybe he got pissed off that Zimmerman was following him and decided to go back and confront him.
yes, that was a reply to statement 116, sorry.
What exactly do you think Neighborhood Watch does, but look for people and things out of place. Hold Tupperware parties?
Since there were recent robberies, the neighborhood meeting in Sept/Oct put more emphasis on this.
Zimmerman had reported other unknown people that related to a robbery, an open window one time, etc. (I believe one incident resulted in recovering some stolen iPods from a local store)
Looking at the neighborhood pictures from the NY Times (link posted above), I am curious how Martin would have cut through on a path towards his house while Zimmerman was on the phone, parked, got out, ran a bit, stopped, and finished the call, and yet Zimmerman was still able to catch up to Martin 3-4 minutes later?
There is a distinct possibility that Martin didn’t continue, but waited in the area between the 2 rows of houses for Zimmerman to appear, and then confronted him for following him.
If everyone stops pre-judging, and looks at both sides trying to do what they thought was right, the facts are probably easier to piece together. (Though I still don’t understand the girlfriend waiting weeks to report)
Where did this “stalker” meme come from? If I see someone suspicious around my neighborhood and I follow them to see what they’re doing, I am now a stalker who deserves to get their nose broken?! I’m sorry but thats just over the top.
I’ve followed people and people have followed me but it never ended in a fistfight or worse.
The statement itself disproves Zimmerman’s claim.
If Zimmerman is no longer following Martin and instead is walking toward his truck, why on earth is Martin following him, after having run and gotten away from him, and why does he ask Zimmerman why Zimmerman is still following him?
That makes absolutely no sense.
The simple truth is staring you in the face. Zimmerman was the aggressor and never stopped looking for Martin until he found him while Martin was talking to his girlfriend on his cell phone.
Why would you follow someone simply walking through a neighborhood? It’s like, “What? YOU DARE TO EXIST?” Wearing a hoodie or black skin or anything else is no excuse for targeting someone. Getting suspicious of someone for no reason and following them is an a-hole thing to do.
people change their minds. People misspeak. Life doesn’t always make sense! :P
The scenario you have described differs from the story that Zimmerman gave to the police.
Yes, indeed.
And some people lie to beat a murder charge.
1) TM was walking around in the rain talking on the phone. Not exactly normal behavior.
2) GZ said TM looked high. And surprise! there was weed in TM’s system.
3) There had been home robberies in the neighborhood.
If there were robberies in your neighborhood and you saw a stranger who looked high walking around houses in the rain, you wouldn’t look at that person with a suspicious eye?
Not really – he said he looked for Martin but lost him and turned towards his car. I assume this was in the grassy area between rows of houses, where the 2nd cut-through led. And where the shooting took place.
But the distances aren’t very great, so the timing doesn’t make sense unless Martin waited – Martin had cut through that sidewalk while Zimmerman was still on the phone, that’s why Zimmerman was out of breath following him while still talking to dispatch.
There’s nothing suspicious about walking in the rain talking on the phone. People go to the store and get caught in the rain all the time. Obviously that’s what happened to Trayvon. Trayvon “looked high?” How incredibly ridiculous. Tell me, what exactly does someone look like when they’re high? Red eyes? Even if Zimmerman could see red eyes in the dark in the rain that means absolutely nothing. People have allergies. And sure there were “traces” of pot in his system, which means to me that there wasn’t a strong amount which means he didn’t get high that night. I’d need more information to be sure of course. One might be able to guess he was high by having a conversation with him, but seeing dude walk around in the rain is no indication whatsoever.
Zimmerman’s story falls apart when he claims Martin attacked him from behind. In Zimmerman’s call to the dispatcher he says Martin is “running.” (Away from a strange man following him for unknown reasons. It’s just too big a stretch to imagine Martin then turned around and attacked Zimmerman unprovoked from behind. Clearly this part of Zimmerman’s story is self serving.
There were reasons to view TM as suspicious. You’re just choosing to ignore or discount them. Although, I doubt you would if you saw someone like that around your house.
When this story first broke, I was outraged too. Now that we have evidence and facts, it looks alot different than before.
dont give up your day job,Sherlock Holmes you aint/
He had 1.5 nanograms of THC metabolite in his blood, which is a trace amount well below the level where a person would exhibit any physical or mental impairment, according the National Highway Transportation & Safety Administration.
That amount does not even suggest that he had smoked marijuana anytime recently. Could have been weeks or months since he did.
Therefore, he was not high on anything.
There had been some residential burglaries, but no robberies in the area. Residential burglaries are property crimes. Robberies are violent crimes that involve the actual use of force or threatened use of force with a weapon.
There had been some break-ins and thefts, not violent crimes until George Zimmerman showed up with an attitude and an itchy trigger finger.
Sunday night @ 7 pm when most people are in for the evening and still awake is an extremely unlikely time for burglars to be out an about.
I guess you think differently, but I do not see anything suspicious about a young black male talking on a cell phone outside. Sometimes people who live in buildings have to do that because reception is poor. Sometimes visitors have trouble finding a place when all of the townhomes look exactly the same and they stop and call for directions.
If I saw someone looking around as if they might be lost, I would ask them if they needed any help. Would not even occur to me to think they were thinking about committing a crime, not out in the open talking on a phone in a high population density neighborhood. That’s crazy thinking.
There is absolutely nothing suspicious about Trayvon Martin and what he was doing that night that provides any rational basis for suspecting that he was up to no good.
Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to do some serious introspection and self-analysis because such thinking is paranoid and almost certainly racist IMO.
Unless you’ve been listening to or reading the right wing hate machine’s lies, there is absolutely no evidence that supports a hunch that Trayvon Martin was a suspicious individual.
Oh come on Mason. Talking on the phone is abnormal, didn’t you get the memo?! And, in the rain, are you effing kidding me? That right there is suspicious! /endsnark
One time, when I was walking around in the rain, I filmed this after the call:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyKv6pRCSYc&feature=plcp
HaHA!! OMG, oops. Color me abnormal!
So, Martin starts trying to kill Zimmerman while he is talking to his girlfriend?
That does not make any sense.
If walking around in the rain talking on the phone were abnormal and suspicious, then everybody in the Pacific Northwest is a potential criminal.
“If there were robberies in your neighborhood and you saw a stranger who looked high walking around houses in the rain, you wouldn’t look at that person with a suspicious eye?”
Oh yes, definitely. Especially if I had just taken a bunch of prescription drugs. But, unfortunately we’ll never know what Z was on, because he wasn’t tested.
Then again, maybe the whole reason for Z being prescribed those drugs is because he is more anxious than most of the passing public…so it’s not a huge leap to consider some baseline suspicion and paranoia at work, especially given his remarkable penchant for calling 911 constantly to report things like potholes.
Zimmerman told the EMT at the scene and the doctor the next day at the family clinic that he takes Librax, Temazepam and Adderall.
Librax and Temazepan are benzodiazepines that are prescribed to treat seizures and anxiety disorders. Adderall is a mild amphetamine prescribed to treat ADHD.
We can safely conclude that Martin was not affected by THC, given the low level amount of THC metabolite in his blood, but we cannot say that about Zimmerman and his prescription medication because he was not tested.
Of course, even if Martin was higher than a kite on marijuana, he would not have been aggressive.
The witness John, who told police that he saw Zimmerman calling out for help, has retracted that part of his statement.
As an old criminal defense attorney, I believe I can say with considerable confidence that, when Mark O’Mara found out, he said, “Hate it when that happens.”
So, then, Z shot M as M was shouting for help?
So how is it if Trayvon is yelling for help that Zimmerman thinks HE’s in mortal danger?
What was Martin doing that was so suspicious? Walking while being black?
He was stalked. He tried to get away and Zimmerman went after him. That’s stalking.
Kinda what I was wondering. Mason says there’s a new thread, I just walked in.
I agree. And when does asking “Why are you following me?” become confused with a physical attack? How could Martin sneak up on Zimmerman when Zimmerman was trying to constantly monitor Martin’s location?
“These **** always get away!”
Zimmerman was going to make sure Martin didn’t get away. It seems very likely to me that Zimmerman was the first to get physical. When Martin fought back, Zimmerman got pissed and shot him. Zimmerman’s calm demeanor, normal heart rate, normal blood pressure and minor injuries suggest that he was never in a defensive life or death struggle.
Sorry, but that is extremely unlikely. People who flee only turn aggressive if they are cornered.
A trial is a lynch mob?
No, the online discussions about this case remind me of a lynch mob. Every unsupported speculation that disfavors Zimmerman gets the fullest consideration, while every possible speculation that goes against Trayvon gets shouted down. Dozens of incorrect prejudicial assumptions against Zimmerman embraced, and then proven wrong without so much as a humble acknowledgement of the errors that were uncritically embraced. None of us knows the truth of what happened, but few are willing to acknowledge that obvious truth. I see the “analysis” as being seriously unbalanced on its face. That feels like lynch mob territory to me. Am I surprised? No. Just disappointed. Just to be clear, there is no side that I am rooting for, it’s just that fact pattern analysis was always my strongest skillset when I practiced law, and it saddens me to see what is passing for careful analysis here.