Democracy is broken in America. As Jon Walker said in the member webinar last night, our political system is controlled by legalized bribery of various forms. Politicians feel free to act in their own interests after getting elected rather than actually representing the people who elected them. More and more Americans from all across the political spectrum are waking up to this fact. This is leading to both cynicism and sometimes a sense of hopelessness.
I strongly believe the first step we need to take as a citizenry is to join together in a way that sends a strong and clear message to our country and the world that says Americans want a government that is actually responsive to the people that are governed. We need to stand up and say we want a legitimate and true democracy. We need to do this in a way that cannot be ignored by the politicians, the media, or the world. Most importantly we need to do it in a way that speaks to each of us as citizens and demonstrates the power we have when we act together.
Such a message will build solidarity and hope in our country. The road to reforming our democracy is a long and hard one. It is one that we can only walk together as a people and we can only do that if enough people feel it is possible. We will need support and participation of every day Americans who are not political activists. We will also need support and participation of disenchanted Americans from all across the political spectrum. Reforming our democracy cannot be a partisan issue or a partisan process. We are all citizens and all want a fair chance to have our voices and ideas heard.
I spoke briefly and rather inelegantly last night during the FDL member webinar about an idea I have about a way to send this message. In this post I will lay out a strategy that I believe is pragmatic, practical, and has a reasonable chance to work. The basic idea is to run a campaign not for a particular candidate but instead against both the Democratic and Republican parties. The genesis for this idea is that both parties are rather hopelessly corrupt and non-responsive to the citizens at this time, yet the structure of our system does not offer meaningful opportunity for 3rd party or independent candidates.
According to Wikipedia a protest vote “is often considered to be a clear sign of the lack of popular legitimacy and roots of representative democracy, as depressed voter turnout endangers the credibility of the whole voting system” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protest_vote). To my knowledge there has never been a coordinated protest vote (or no confidence) campaign (please share in the comments if you are aware of such a movement). This would be a new experiment in grassroots democracy. A coordinated protest vote campaign would encourage as many voters as possible to cast protest votes for actual people, but people who are not affiliated with the Democratic and Republican parties. Rather than promoting a specific candidate such a campaign would encourage voters to cast a protest vote for any 3rd party, independent, or write in candidate they wish. It would be extremely important that these votes are valid and counted.
The goal of this campaign would be an unprecedented number of votes in the “other” category and as few votes for the winner as possible. In the unlikely (i.e. impossible) dream scenario the “other” category would actually “win” a plurality and the winner of the election would end up with less than 33% of the vote. This would essentially be a vote of no confidence by the population at large. This is not likely to happen but I don’t believe it is necessary to make a strong statement either. Even 10-15% of the vote going to the “other” category would be an amazing accomplishment. This would unprecedented and would be very hard for the media and the world to ignore and would provide a foundation to build on in the future.
In order to make something like this work we will need to ease fears many people will have about wasting their vote. We cannot send people to the polls blind. Most voters will need some assurance that their vote is going to have the intended effect in order to consider vote for a candidate that will not win. The best way I have thought of to do this is a pledge system. Kickstarter is a model we could look at (www.kickstarter.com).
If we attempt a 2012 election strategy using a pledge system we will want to think deeply about how to design the most effective pledge system we can. Some initial thoughts I have follow.
First, I think a campaign goal would be very important. We could target 1 million votes, 10 million votes, etc. There are many here at FDL who would be much better at identifying an achievable, yet ambitious goal.
Second, in order to bring as many pledges into the system as early as possible and collect as much information as possible from interested voters we will want to allow conditional pledges. A conditional pledge would allow a voter to make a pledge to vote for a 3rd party, independent, or write in only if enough other voters join them or if certain candidates were not nominated by one of the legacy parties. They would state in their pledge how many others they feel are required in order to make their protest vote worthwhile. This would allow us to get a pulse for both how many people are willing to cast a protest vote if they feel it is meaningful and at what level people feel makes their protest vote meaningful. This could be very powerful information to have.
Third, the pledge is not a vote so we will need to allow the pledge to be modified if a voter changes their mind and is willing to tell us. The more realistic information we have the better off we would be.
Finally, in addition to pledging votes, such a system could also allow for pledging of donations – both immediate and donations that only kick in after a specified level of funding is reached. This would be one method of raising funds for the campaign.
With enough pledging this campaign has the potential to dramatically affect voter turnout. In the past many voters who are not happy with the mainstream candidates they are presented with decide voting is not worth their time. Many will certainly still feel this way, yet a coordinated campaign presenting them with an option to say the oligarchs do not represent them may be compelling. I believe this campaign could motivate many non-traditional voters, especially youth voters. There is so much cynicism in America today that needs a way to be heard.
There are obviously many issues that would need to be worked out to make such a pledge system practical. Pledge spam is an obvious potential issue. Pledges that fall through in the voting booth is another. I am confident that we can work through these issues and identify workably mitigation strategies. For example, we can probably come up with a statistical model that would be in the right ballpark in converting pledges to votes.
There are many additional questions to consider. What elections would we target? I would propose focusing on the presidential election as most symbolic but also encouraging or possibly facilitating pledging and protest votes for congressional and state elections. Others here may have a better insight into where this kind of protest vote campaign could be most effective and send the strongest message. This decision should be made using the collective wisdom of the community. We could coordinate with independent and 3rd party candidates in these elections as they would stand to gain from the protest vote movement. If this campaign were to really take off debates and possibly even a convention could be organized next year during the election cycle to bring even more attention to the movement.
One of the first steps in making this happen will be building a broad coalition of grassroots activists and bloggers from across the political spectrum. The good news here is that FDL has some experience in non-partisan activism. We can build on that and work to identify grassroots communities (not astroturf!) across the political spectrum with whom we can work on this campaign. I believe there are many here and elsewhere willing to set aside partisan differences to send the message that we are tired of the corrupt Kabuki democracy that exists in America today. I mostly participate here and am not too familiar with the broader political blogosphere. I’m hoping some of you can mention grassroots political blogs or communities of any leaning that might be a good partners in this campaign. Please don’t be shy in the comment thread! Let’s get the discussion going about who else may be interested in collaborating with us on this kind of campaign.
If the community here and elsewhere likes this idea we go ahead with it we will need a coordinated media strategy as well. I would not expect much media coverage in the beginning, but there is a long runway before the 2012 elections. There is lots of time to plan and to start building pledges. The more interest we can generate on the net the harder it will be for the media to ignore. We may also find interest among some celebrities who could help promote the campaign. One obvious example here would be Jesse Ventura. He has been advocating a strong protest vote for a long time. If we start doing the legwork to build protest vote campaign I think it is very likely that he would get involved and help us get exposure in the media. Regardless of how anybody feels about him or his policies he does have the ability to get onto mainstream media and supports this kind of strategy.
Finally, on election day we would need election monitors to ensure that valid protest votes are actually counted and reported correctly. I assume there are folks here who have experience with this sort of thing. Hopefully you can comment on the feasibility of doing this when it is valid protest votes cast for independent, 3rd party, or write in candidates we care about and not votes for specific candidates.
In summary, I believe the first step to restoring true democracy is gaining the recognition that there are millions of us who feel that this is necessary, are fed up with corruption, and are willing to use the power we were granted by the constitution (our votes) to say this. I believe a pledge system can work to provide reassurance that votes will not be wasted. I also believe that if we are able to gather enough pledges they alone will send a message and may have the potential of become a topic of discussion in the mainstream campaigns. It will also tell the world clearly that the oligarchs do not represent the regular folks in America.
I know I am not alone when I say that failure and restoration of democracy is the largest issue we face and should be the focus of our campaign efforts in 2012. If we can force this issue into the mainstream discussion it may be the beginning of change we really can believe in.
UPDATE:
I came across an interesting link about protest voting in Russia from RT.
UPDATE 2:
Thanks to the suggestion of one_outer I have cross posted over at Daily Paul to gauge the libertarian reaction to this idea. Head on over if you’re curious to see what they think and help encourage them to consider joining us in a coalition…
UPDATE 3:
Ok, first lesson from the Ron Paul site. They are very sensitive to the difference between the words democracy and republic. They understand democracy as tyranny of the majority where 51% can take constitutional rights away from 49%. We will need to be sensitive to this. They are strong believers in individual freedom and constitutionally protected civil rights. That is the reason they are passionate about the difference they perceive between democracy (as they define it) and republic. If any of you head over there please be aware of this and try not to stir up this distraction. Let’s try to stay focused on our shared objectives (getting rid of the oligarchy).
UPDATE 4:
Please use the twitter hash #noconfidence2012 to discuss if you’re on twitter. There have been lots of tweets and nobody has used this hash tag yet. Using the hash tag will help to start a discussion on Twitter as well so please do this!
UPDATE 5:
I submitted this post to reddit this morning. Please help it out here.
UPDATE 6:
greenwarrior has provided another interesting link. This one regarding protest votes for non-human candidates: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-human_electoral_candidates.
UPDATE 7:
JZ has provided us with another interesting link about the None of the Above voting option. It turns out that this is a valid ballot action in some jurisdictions. Most interesting here to me was the U.K. NOTA party which was formed to get around their lack of this ballot option.
UPDATE 8:
OhioGringo has provided us with some great historical info about how our current parties and the New Deal came to be. I have not fact checked it so please let me know if OhioGringo was in error in any way.
The Democratic Party under Andrew Jackson started out as protest votes against the remnants of the Federalist party and the then invincible Democratic-Republican Party. The Republican Party started out with protest votes against the pro-slavery Democrats and Whigs. The Populist Party was a protest vote against the excesses of capitalism that led to early 20th Century Progressive reforms. The one million votes that Communist candidates for President got in 1932 were protest votes that forced the Democrats to actually implement the New Deal.
UPDATE 9:
This post is currently doing pretty well in the Democratic Socialists, Green Party, Election Reform, and US Politics categories on reddit. Please head over there and help it out. The reddit button on this page only votes for it on the main reddit page, not the topic sub sections.
UPDATE 10:
I have answered commonly asked questions about this idea here.
UPDATE 11:
My latest post covers Pledge Based Activism in detail. This is a concept for a powerful new tool for internet organizing and social media activism. This tool is central to the No Confidence Protest Vote 2012 strategy.
UPDATE 12:
I took a stab at a list of criteria that could help to separate truly independent candidates from those who would support empire and oligarchy despite being independent from the legacy parties.



106 Comments

The problem with this is that you will not get the result you want. A protest vote is a bad idea because someone will be elected and the folks you are trying to get to protest are the ones that are least likely to vote for Republicans, so what you wind up with is a draining of votes from the Democrats without a similar draining of votes from the Republicans.
Since this is a zero sum game (e.g. someone is going to be elected) what you are effectively doing is not protesting but giving the election to the Republican candidates.
We have seen exactly how this works with two races in NY. The first int eh 23rd had a protest vote in on the Republican side in the form a of a Tea Party candidate. It resulted in a Democrat taking a seat that no Democrat had won since the Civil War.
We are seeing the same thing in the NY 26th where a Dem is ahead in the polls because Tea Partiers don’t like the Republican.
But worse than all of that, you’re message is not going to be heard. This decentralized “vote for anyone in a 3rd party” idea will not be seen as a protest that Dems are not liberal enough, instead when Republicans win it will push them in the other direction.
Are you sure you understand what I am proposing? I am suggesting we form a coalition that is non-partisan and includes conservatives / tea party folks. I don’t think it would be easy to predict which major party it would pull more votes from.
The message is not that Dems are not liberal enough. The message is that the American government is not representative of the American people. It is a fascist leaning oligarchy that the people do not support (the oligarchy just happens to have 2 parties).
If you still believe in Dems nothing will convince you that this is a good idea. This post and this strategy is for folks who have thrown in the towel on the Dems and are looking for another way forward.
But you miss the point. Tea Partiers are going to vote for TP-GOP candidates, they are not going to make common cause with you.
But beyond that you are missing the structural issue. You have to have enough people to be noticeable in hundreds of Congressional districts. You could have two million voters go along with you but if they are spread out over the whole nation you won’t even show up.
The way to change your government is to elect people who will change it the way you want, not throwing your vote away in a protest no one will hear about.
The amount of energy you are talking about expending could far better be spent on actually electing someone.
The idea that just because there is a vocal group of people on the Left and the Right that think, government is broken does not in any way mean that they think the solution is the same thing. That is a big factor that you are completely missing. Conservatives want to “fix” government by making it less representative not more. They are the ones doing things like Voter ID laws and limiting voter registration.
All you are doing is spinning your wheels with this. Give it a try if you like but you will be heard less by the elected officials of this nation not more. There is a reason that no one knows about protest votes, it is because they don’t work. Ever.
Matt, I think the broad outline here is a great idea. It reminds me of the “none of the above” campaign Richard Pryor led in the movie “Brewster’s Millions”. It can work, and it can cut across ideological lines.
Don’t listen to Egnor – for whatever reason he has mortal battered wife syndrome and can’t handle the idea of not being captive to a party that abuses the things he claims to believe in.
The reason no one hears about protest votes is that there is rarely an organized protest vote campaign that explicitly seeks media attention. If there were ever an election cycle where a protest vote campaign could capture public attention, I suspect it will be this one.
The one thing I would add is that voting for a bunch of 3rd parties might not be as effective as an organized write in vote for “no confidence”. Three million “no confidence” write ins (or more!) would demand attention, methinks.
Also, seeing Egnor tell someone else that they don’t understand the structural issue is pure comic gold. Oh, the irony. And yet…he can’t see how him and all his war criminal voting for friends can’t see the structure of how they’re captured by the system.
Italics fail, and I forgot to tell you “rec’d”.
Clearly we disagree.
Certainly some will just as you are probably going to vote for a dem and are not going to make common cause with me. Yet many of them are just as fed up with the oligarchy as I am. No need to rehash why here. Oligarchy is not a partisan issue. You seem to believe deems can still serve your objectives. I don’t.
This would be true if the goal was to win an election but it isn’t. The goal is to get a significant portion of the national popular vote for non-oligarchy candidates of all stripes and colors. Last time I checked the national popular vote is tabulated and widely reported.
Again we disagree. I wish this were the case but it no longer seems to be. This is where I think you miss the structural problem. No candidate with a chance to win can be trusted to do anything most of us here at FDL are interested in. No candidate in either major party will take action for the people against the oligarchs. All we get is lip service when it doesn’t matter.
There are many ideas on all sides of the political spectrum about what to do. I am of the belief that this will not be solved in a partisan way without causing a civil war. I believe we can solve it in a non-partisan way through dialog about potential solutions. I think that at the grassroots level people can eventually reach a solution that gives their ideas a fair hearing and sees broadly supported ideas implemented. There are no easy answers here. Starting the conversation is only the first step. The alternative is likely fascism or civil war. I don’t think there are many of us who desire to go down either of those roads – I certainly don’t.
If you’re going to make historical claims please provide relevant evidence. Can you find a single example of a broad, non-partisan protest vote movement? I couldn’t. I stated in my post that this would be an experiment. Further, the pledge system is designed to only cast actual protest votes on election day if support for the movement is broad enough. This strongly mitigates the risk of wasted votes you are worried about.
Clearly we disagree and you still have faith in the current electoral system. That is fine and you should do what you think will work best. There are many of us here that feel differently and are trying to think out of the box fir solutions that may lead to positive change. We will likewise do what we think will work best. I hope others will find my plan compelling, but even more, I hope we as a community find the right ideas that lead to a responsive government and real democracy in America.
Thanks for your support! Are you active on other blogs / communities where you could share this idea? I would like to see it go viral.
That is certainly one option. My thinking is that it is important that the votes actually be counted and I’m not sure they would be. If we could do it that way and still have the votes counted it might make a great top recommendation, but I think we would want the broadest coalition possible. Including 3rd parties and independents would help to do this.
Bill, I look at so many of these efforts and roll my eyes. They are unworkable on the face of them.
But I also look at so many ideas that may be feasible, but people just put them out rather than, as I keep harping on, building some kind of organization to implement them, in the absence of which they are just pissing into the wind.
So the question I put out is whether these various revolutionary calls to action can result in, not the called-for action, but rather an organization of like-minded people that can somehow provide a vehicle to do something better.
The reason we both respect the NPA, whatever our disagreements are or have been, is that it is an ORGANIZATION.
… to continue …
that could provide the foundation of something new.
I couldn’t agree more. If enough folks are interested we will make this happen. I have no desire to see this be an empty call to action.
Jane has called us to help brainstorm ideas for the 2012 election cycle and this is my humble contribution. If others have better ideas I will be happy to support them in addition to or in place of this idea. You are absolutely right that none of this will work without a community and an organization behind it.
The one thing I am convinced of, however, is that any workable ideas at this point must be quite far outside the box. America has moved well beyond the realm of the familiar. Obama has turned enormous hope into enormous cynicism at light speed.
Please forgive me for a reply which might almost be a diary
in itself, because I’ve been reflecting on this question
quite intensely. There are some possible moral and
strategic distinctions which occur to me, and which might
be helpful for further discussion — recognizing that I
speak only for my own situation!
The 2012 election may present me with an interesting
dilemma: not whether I cast a “protest vote” for President,
as I have almost every four years, but whether and how
actively I get involved in actually campaigning for a third
party, maybe with the intent of showing that for a
President to authorize assassinations and the executive
equivalent of bills of attainder (“targeted killings”) is
not the best strategy for winning the progressive vote.
And that’s a grim dilemma.
In 2004 and 2008, I was unable to vote for Kerry because he
approved the death penalty for “terrorists,” and for Obama
because he approved it more generally for certain aggravated
murders as well as the nonfatal rape of a child — but,
while voting Green, I wanted both to win, and so abstained
from any campaigning which might sway others. I was ready
to explain my own vote, but without advocating that others
do the same if they were planning to vote Democratic. Also,
I was in both campaigns disturbed by Kerry’s or Obama’s
statements to the effect that “We will kill Osama bin
Laden,” but maybe very questionably assuaged when this was
sometimes to modified to “capture or kill.”
While the assassination of Osama bin Ladin highlights the
Obama Administration policy, the whole “targeted killing”
or “kill/capture” strategy (with emphasis on the first
alternative) recalls “search and destroy” and Operation
Phoenix in Vietnam, maybe going one better (i.e. worse)
with kill lists including citizens of the U.S.A.
Applying the terms of moral theology, my “protest votes”
have typically involved what is called the doctrine of
double effect or DDE. My intent is simply to avoid
cooperation with evil (true, in a very small way) while
using my vote to communicate opposition, with the possible
defeat of the Democratic candidate as a foreseen but
unintended possible evil result, and not my object in
casting the vote. Most dramatically, in 2000, I voted for
Ralph Nader mainly because Albert Gore was joining hands
with George W. Bush and promoting the death penalty, an
elementary human rights violation. And despite the horrible
results of the Bush years, which I do _not_ regard as “no
different than what Gore would have done,” I would do the
same, but with deepest sadness rather than celebration of
these dire consequences for our country and the world.
Note that I would have cheerfully voted for and campaigned
for a Democrat such as Mario Cuomo, rather than Nader,
because when no intolerable human rights violation like the
death penalty or extrajudicial executions or torture is
involved, voting for a good rather than an ideal candidate
who can actually be elected is often the responsible
choice. Ranked voting, of course, would let us have it both
ways; but I’m assuming the status quo.
The Obama Administration’s policy of carrying on with Bush
Era “targeted killings” and actually, according to reports,
leaning further in the direction of killing rather than
capturing and trying terrorist suspects, is so outrageous
that I’m asking, “Could it be justified not merely to cast
a protest vote in 2012, but to do some all-out campaigning
for a third party candidate with the intention of getting
the maximum number of votes, regardless of the consequences
for Obama, or maybe even welcoming his defeat as a
cautionary lesson to future Presidents aspiring to a
progressive following that assassination is not the kind of
“change we can believe in.” But this requires careful
weighing, as opposed to the kind of raw outrage I’ve been
feeling for the last ten days.
Curiously, while unless we assume President Obama has a
radical change of heart and adopts the human rights
standards of Amnesty International there is no way I could
vote for him in 2012, my decision to campaign actively for
a third party might depend on the reasonable probability of
a substantial showing. I’m not sure where to draw the line,
but 10% would do it. That would at once serve as the basis
for a significant electoral movement, and as a possible
check on a Republican administration if Obama did lose.
Thank you for a very thoughtful reply Margo! I appreciate the principled stand you have taken and the careful thought that has gone into your decisions.
I would like to think the plan I have outlined may help address some of the concerns that have kept you from being more active in the past. Specifically, the non-partisan coalition (if executed well) would draw votes in an unpredictable fashion from all across the political spectrum. This could be a way to protest without the certainty of drawing votes away from the lesser of two evils. We wouldn’t know until election day, if ever, which side lost more votes to this protest movement.
Secondarily, and more importantly, the pledge system would avoid the protest vote altogether if the substantial showing was not going to happen. We would protest or refrain jointly depending on the showing we expected. In 2008 the total popular vote was about 130 million. In order to reach your 10% threshold we would need about 13 million voters from across the spectrum to join our protest movement. This is extremely ambitious, but I think it is possible given the extreme level of cynicism and disenchantment we see in America today. It would be an incredible accomplishment if we could reach that level of support. The best news is we could track our progress via the pledges and would know well before election day where we stand.
Please reply back and let me know your thoughts on this. Would these structures help make it easier for you to support a protest vote movement or a specific 3rd party candidate?
Show me. Really I am pointing out that this has no chance. I have the advantage of history on my side. Show me that I am wrong, instead of thinking that I have battered wife syndrome.
From my perspective you’re a parlor pink, blathering on about “when the revolution comes” but somehow never actually getting out there to make it happen. Don’t talk about this kind of thing, show me and the other doubters that A) you have the means to do something like this and B) that you can follow through.
I heard a lot of talk around here in the last cycle that people were going to write in “public option” as a protest vote. Well you know what, I can’t find a single place where it was reported how many of those votes happened. Not. A. Single. Place.
So rather than working on something futile why don’t you just pick a candidate or 8 and try to get them elected. That will have a far, far bigger impact on the real world of politics than a protest vote that won’t happen and won’t be heard.
Absolutely. I am not inline with their goals and I do think they are wasting their time, but, and this is a huge but, I give them full marks for being engaged and putting their time and effort where their mouth is. If everyone were that engaged there would be (probably) a lot less problems with this government.
MattJ- You might want to go hook up with the NPD guys rather than trying this protest thing. If you really want to be invovled and you won’t do it in the Democratic Party, well they are probably the place for you. I know for sure they need all the help they can get and anything you do with them will be a hell of a lot more effective than trying to organize a protest vote nation wide.
That said, if you really want to get this protest vote thing going, here is my unpaid and unasked for advice. Do a proof of concept where ever you live. Target a state wide office holder, or a Representative and see if you can get the kind of coalition you are talking about together and make an impact.
This will do several things. First off it will let you test your theory of action. You will surely find out what is right and what is wrong with this idea, whatever those are.
Second it will increase your chances of effectiveness. I still think it is bad idea, but maybe you’re right. The best thing to do is go from win to win, so testing it in small scale before you go nationwide is a good idea.
It also makes getting the attention you need easier. You have a smaller geographical area to work with and more chance of getting news coverage. Which is critical if you are going to get the credit/blame for this action.
Another thing I would suggest is to start talking to the local media right away. It is going to raise your stakes if you don’t succeed but it will also get attention from like minded people when you lay down a marker for “none of the above” and do it early in the cycle.
Like I said, unasked for advice, but if I were going after this plan that is where I’d start. In any case – Do Something! Don’t just talk about it, make it happen.
Cheers,
B-
Bill, I don’t mean to be rude, but please show us exactly what good this has done in the last decade.
I for one am glad the folks in Egypt and Tunisia didn’t feel that working outside the box was futile. You’re welcome to your approach, but I will not be discouraged by your appeal to history and your claim to know my level of motivation.
Things could be a lot worse is the point. Tending a democracy takes a life time of work. It is not something you can do every 18 months for 6 months.
And you can’t use Egypt and Tunisia as examples of things that will work in this country. The reason that their revolutions toppled their governments are not applicable here.
They have a much younger population that we do. They had long time dictators, we don’t. They were massively oppressed with secret police and torture of their citizens, that is not true here, at least nothing approaching the scale and normality that it was there.
And, here is the clincher, they are not even close to open democracy like we are here. Even after toppling the governments there.
Lets try to stay to apples and apples comparisons. Prior the revolution in Egypt, this conversation could have had both of us arrested and tortured. We are not oppressed like the Egyptians were (and might still be depending on how things turn out).
Just so you know the comment you replied to was pointed at one-outer. Not you. If you are motivated, act. I’d rather 200,000 people getting politically involved even if I think their actions of futile than sitting on their hands. So good luck, I gave you some ideas of how you might be successful in a comment above. Now all you have to do it rub my face in how wrong I am.
One other thing; Just because I think you are wrong please don’t think that I think you’re a bad person. Those two have nothing to do with each other.
Of course. I never thought you implied that.
Well, it gets heated sometimes and this media does not allow for all the tone and facial expressions that make up most human communication, so it is always worth saying, even if you already knew it.
Why is it that the folks who always say protest votes don’t work seem to be the same ones who blame Nader voters for defeating Gore.
The problem isn’t that they don’t work, it’s that they need to be applied more broadly and in one more than one election cycle.
Cause Democrats enough pain and they’ll pay attention.
But I’d prefer to do it through a 3rd Party.
That depends on who and where you are. I assume you’re not one of the unemployed, possibly homeless and did not live in tent city last summer.
I do agree that democracy takes a lot of work. I am proposing a large effort here. Not something that would only last a few months. If this worked it wold lead to a very important discussion in our country. We would have the opportunity to work for real structural change. That would also be a long process. But first steps must be taken.
I’m not using them as examples of things that will work in this country. I’m using them as an example that thinking well outside the box can work given the right strategy and social environment.
No, but we were in kahoots with their oppressor, isn’t that a wonderful thing? I am not proposing a revolution because we don’t need one yet. What I am proposing is something I hope can prevent us from getting to that point.
I got that but wanted to reply anyway.
Thank you for that. We’ll see how things go. We’ll know in a year and a half…
I would too if I thought that would work in the long run. Unfortunately I don’t. I don’t think it would work in the short run either, do you? Will you join us?
Coincidentally or not, this is statistically the only method we have to break the prisoners dilemma we are stuck in. There must be punishment for betrayal or the behavior is reinforced.
I prefer the word consequences, but otherwise you are right on!
This whole conversation is asinine.
Parlor pink. That’s a lot of nerve. A lot of nerve. You don’t know a goddamn thing about me Bill. I spent the better part of the last decade working in electoral politics on and off. I dropped out of college twice and took six years to graduate so I could do that work. I worked 16 hours a day unpaid for months. I’ve contributed thousands of dollars to candidates, the DCCC, the DSCC, the MN DFL, and others over the years. I was on DailyKos organizing with Dean supporters when it was on Movable Type (and my UID is 274). I’ve been spit on, arrested, tear gassed, hit with nightsticks, punched, and harassed by the cops. I once even had some bitch with Bush stickers on her jeep have my car booted and towed from a restricted parking lot, because I had a Kerry sticker, while giving the five other people in the lot a mulligan.
And what did we get?
The Bob Dole health care plan that’s a step backwards and that came with attacks on Roe v. Wade signed by a Democratic president. More war. Renewal of the Bush tax cuts. And on and on and on. That’s what electoral politics has wrought us in the last decade, and in the last forty years when people with your opinions have been doing the same shit over and over and over again and failing miserably. And you have the nerve to say “show me” and call me a parlor pink.
I have a better idea. How about you show me? Show me how you and your ideology isn’t a complete failure above the level of community gardens and eventually pestering the city council enough for new street lights. Show me the elected officials you’ve worked so hard to elect that don’t turn around and sell out your values.
Don’t tell me to work for candidates. Don’t tell me to write fucking letters. Don’t tell me to stand dutifully in the protest zone and just quietly let the police arrest me as a “symbol”. I’ve been there, done that, and IT DOESN’T FUCKING WORK. We’ve been going backwards doing all that stuff. And you know it – but to admit it would be to admit that you’ve wasted a lot of time and most of your life for bullshit. That has to be a hard thought to come to terms with.
Do I have all the answers? Of course not. Shit, I don’t have any answers. I think we should crowdsource that process. But at least I don’t go around presenting failed ideas and tactics as answers while pissing all over the diaries of people who dare to think outside your little box.
You once told me that if I didn’t like the diaries about what you call “getting your hands dirty” (talk about fantasy land – another place another time) I should just scroll on past. Well, if you don’t like the diaries that are at least trying to find ways forward other than the failed strategies of the past maybe you should take your own advice and leave us alone.
Should I decide to drop in a take a big steaming dump on one of your election diaries like you have on matthewj’s, I’d hope that you’d have the memory to not be a hypocrite. But I sure as shit don’t expect it.
I’m not really active on many other sites. FDL has all I need, with the people I want to be around. Notwithstanding the Egnor/Canfield/PW failure faction, of course. I like those people. They’re just wrong.
As far as broadness goes, I think you’re probably right in the end about the third parties. The goal should be as many non R/D votes as possible, and so all other votes count towards the total of the no confidence vote idea.
No war but the class war, as Southern Dragon might say. We could try to figure something out about spreading the idea and percolate it a little more on myFDL. It’s certainly a tactic worth trying. Stay strong, brother.
Oh, and one more thing. When I got in trouble as a kid (which happened a lot as I hate authority) my father used to tell me that the definition of insanity was doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
You might want to think on that for a while.
One Outer, it looks like you’re very interested the idea I have proposed here and also have quite a bit of relevant experience. Do you have any thoughts on what we should be thinking about and looking at to make this happen? If you’re interested I’d like to do some brainstorming with you to take this a step further…
It also looks like you might be from MN. I am also!
People often attribute this to Einstein. I’m not sure if he actually said it or not though…
There’s a reason why some people will fight to maintain the status quot. Because any change like you suggest scares the piss out of them. It might endanger their cushy little life styles. Their nice high salary jobs and McMansions and European import SUVs that they have come to value above their own values. Assuming of course they had any values to begin with.
Same here. Do you know any independent or conservative blogs that are popular and real grassroots? We’ll need to start trying to spread this idea to sites of various political persuasions if we want this idea to really get some legs and have a chance to work. I’m not up on where these folks hangout online but would be happy to spend some time spreading this idea there if you know the right places to go…
Let’s do that and maybe also try to spread it via Twitter and Facebook if possible (I abhor Facebook and refuse to join but it is a great tool for stuff like this if you’re a member).
The pledge concept is critical as it would give us a lot of early data and also eliminates the fear of wasting votes. Please try to keep that at the top of your mind any time you’re discussing this…
Sounds like you might be onboard cmaukonen! Can you help spread this idea online? Do you know where the real grassroots from other political leanings reside? I would like to start spreading this idea as widely as possible. We will need a broad coalition to make it work.
A few points:
(1) To have a campaign, you need a campaign organization. I don’t believe that FDL could be that organization, although certainly its members could be part of its base of support.
(2) You are hoping for a far larger vote total than the Greens have ever gotten. Getting that would entail having a larger organization than the Greens have ever had. Ever thought about taking them over?
(3) One problem with the Greens is that they have too much program. I think there is an opening for a strong, simple populist program. The New Progressive Alliance has the makings of a good one:
1) Full Employment
2) Medicare for All
3) Civil Rights/Human Rights/Civil Liberties
4) Fair Trade
5) End the Wars Now
One might quibble over details, but it’ll do. Have you thought of joining or working along side the NPA.
Various ideas are now floating around, different, but parallel. (see also Liz Berry’s Start Now Run for Office in 2012.
I am sick to death of bold calls to action with nothing to make them happen, but what I’ve noticed in yours and Liz’s and NPA‘s calls is that there is beginning to emerge at least some organizational component to each of them. THAT creates new possibilities that even the boldest call to action lacks.
Facebook – now there’s an idea. Lots of apolitical people or the types that hate the system and just show up every four years to hold their nose and pull the lever spend tons of time on Facebook. That has real potential.
Bill, for some reason I can’t reply to you directly (if anybody knows why I’m not able to reply to all comments please fill me in), but this is re: your previous reply. I appreciate any and all advice! I’m not experienced with this kind of thing.
I have heard the local mantra many times as well. It is a great idea for doing a testing and establishing a strategy, etc. I understand well that this would be the sensible approach in usual circumstances. However, as the Chinese proverb says “may you live in interesting times”, we do live in “interesting” times.
The circumstances are not usual and I would like to see this campaign carried out in a general fashion targeting as many elections as possible especially at the national level. The internet and social networking will make this much easier than it would have been even 5 years ago. Our pledge tool could easily be developed to work for as many elections as we could enter into the system. Facebook and Twitter, etc can be used to spread the word and ask people to consider pledging in all the elections in which they are eligible to vote. Media attention will be hard at first, but if we can make this go viral we could take it very far. We won’t know if we don’t try…
You’re local? I live in St. Paul. We should totally hang out or something.
I can’t tell if you’re being serious or facetious. I think they just might enjoy the opportunity to tell the corporate oligarchs what they really think. If it helped the Egyptians maybe it can help us…
You have to start somewhere, right? This would be part campaign, part movement, part viral protest, etc. It need not be fully centralized, although you are right that it would need some kind of central coordination for media, election monitoring, etc.
No. I think this really needs to be non-partisan. I do think it would be great if it inspired the Greens to affiliate and try to attract some of the votes we might draw though.
I can’t emphasize strongly enough that this is a single issue strategy not a program or platform strategy. The single issue is our failed democracy and need for structural reform. The goal is not to define what that reform looks like. The ideal outcome is to force that discussion to happen in a serious and mainstream fashion.
When that discussion starts to happen we will have plenty of opportunity to put forward the reforms we think are necessary and will work. We should certainly be thinking about that and identifying strategies to influence that discussion, but we need to get it started before any reform at all has a chance. My strategy is designed to force that discussion to happen and nothing more. We have to start somewhere.
Yep. I live in Shakopee and work in Minneapolis. We could get together if you’re interested in giving this thing a shot…
I am also not able to reply directly to your comment now for some reason. Any idea why that’s happening?
No, I’m totally serious. You can try the Ron Paul people too. They have a couple websites with a serious user base, in action and numbers.
I’d never mock this. It’s an honest attempt, and shouldn’t be dismissed out of hand.
It’s the nesting. You must be kinda a newbie. It cuts off at a certain point so we don’t end up with comments that are in in a narrow column where the lines of text are like three words long.
I work in Minneapolis too. At the IDS Center.
Cool, that’s what I was hoping. The Ron Paul folks are a great idea. Maybe this could help convince him to finally leave the Republicans. Do you know which Ron Paul sites would be the best ones to go to?
Do you have any idea why the Reply link isn’t showing up for me in some comments? I would like to reply to you directly but I can’t for some reason…
(I think I may have figured the comment problem out. Is there a maximum indent for the comment threads here on myFDL?)
“My strategy is designed to force that discussion to happen and nothing more.”
How would it force it to happen? What would motivate progressives to get YOUR particular ball rolling? Platform can cut two ways. For every point you add, you risk alienating some people. On the other hand, adding the right points draws other people in. I think a short populist platform is the right mix.
If “The single issue is our failed democracy and need for structural reform,” with no guidance as to what that reform needs to be, it is far too vague.
I’ve been reading here for a few years but haven’t commented too much until lately. The nesting! Thanks!
You work in IDS? Cool. I have lunch there a couple times a week at Starbucks…
Daily Paul would be a good place to start. And maybe check their links.
http://www.dailypaul.com/
And…I walk past that starbucks five times a day. Maybe we should have lunch there soon, assuming you’re not occupied with day job business.
It would force the discussion IF it was successful. That’s obviously a very big IF. A significant national vote of no confidence would be very likely to get lots of attention and folks talking. That is what I meant.
I’m not asking progressives to do all the work. Progressives could play a role in this movement through by advocating Green candidates or independents who uphold any platform they wish. My strategy is to form a coalition of folks from all across the political spectrum. A coalition doesn’t ask folks to set aside their platform, rather it asks them to band together to advance a single issue on which they agree. The two are perfectly compatible.
I would love to see a progressive group be a part of this coalition and advocate the progressive platform vigorously in addition to participating in this coalition. I am asking progressives to recognize that without structural reform the progressive platform is not going anywhere and without a discussion about structural reform there will be no structural reform. Thus I present a strategy to try and generate that discussion. Does this make sense to you?
Would you prefer the status quo to a discussion about reform? Starting out by advocating structural reforms in a partisan fashion seems like something that would go nowhere fast. We need to set aside the partisan divide if we are going to make structural reform happen without violence.
Thanks, heading over there now.
BTW, do you know how to sort the comments so I can see only the most recent comments without wading back through the entire list?
Sounds good. I’m usually downtown Tues-Thurs. Is there a way to send a private message on here? If so send me your email and we can work something out…
If you could do it I think I’d know how. I don’t think you can. That’s something to email Jane about at least. Lots of people have been emailing Jane about logistical stuff on myFDL, so I assume we’ll get some upgrades like that in the future. It costs money, of course, however.
And you know, this might sound nuts, but Jesse Ventura has the ability to get on tv. And he has an audience. Getting in touch with him about this could surprise us.
Private messaging would be another nice addition, but no.
My email address isn’t a state secret – one dot outer at gmail dot com
***Mod Note: Readable by humans but not computers. Safer this way.***
“Would you prefer the status quo to a discussion about reform?”
Depends on what’s on TV that night. But seriously, that’s a bullshit choice. How about a serious campaign for a populist platform? I’d prefer that. Your saying something would go nowhere fast doesn’t prove anything. Greens haven’t won so far, you might argue? Their organizational efforts have been puny. Proves nothing.
You’re absolutely right about Jesse. That’s why I mentioned him in the post. I posted a comment at his site earlier with a link here. I may have another way to contact him so I’ll give that a try also. Do you know any way to contact him?
Here is the link to my fresh crosspost over at Daily Paul in case you’re interested…
Consensus here and elsewhere seems to be that our system is far too corrupt to make this happen right now. You’re right that this doesn’t prove anything. If you think that is a viable path with the current systemic flaws and corruption have at it. Maybe you are right, but I and others have seen too much betrayal and corruption to think you are.
Oh thank you mod. I totally know better. How absentminded of me.
Quick and enthusiastic response to matthewj: I think that
there are a number of good ideas here, including a
nonpartisan coalition or a simple Populist platform, which
could attract not only my vote but my active campaigning.
Let’s discuss this some more: it’s a very constructive
dialogue that I can see going good places!
Thanks Margo, glad to hear this! What do you think of the idea for a pledge system? My thought is that it can go a long way to helping ease fears of wasting votes. I think that is a very big deal, especially after the 2000 election.
I have been recommending the following voting strategy for some time.
1) Always vote.
2) Never vote for a Democrat or a Republican.
Jessie Ventura sat down with “The Daily Bell”. The following is from that interview:
Daily Bell: How can regular Americans stop criminal behavior at the top levels of government and in the media?
Jesse Ventura: My belief is very simple and clear. All the people of the United States have to do is stop electing Democrats and Republicans. Vote for anyone else, because clearly, both of these parties, are bought off by the corporations. There is no doubt in my mind about it. I refer to the United States as the Fascist States of America now. If you look at the definition of fascism, it’s when corporations and religion control the government and that’s where we are.
The full interview is here:
http://www.thedailybell.com/2027/Anthony-Wile-with-Jesse-Ventura-on-Government-Cover-Ups-911-the-Reality-of-HAARP-and-Making-Government-Better.html
Thanks workingclass. You’re right on. I hope you see how my strategy can help elevate the power of what you’re doing. There has never been a campaign for something like this and has never been a pledge system to help enable this to happen without the fear of wasting a vote…
Thanks for the link. Do you know how to get in touch with Jesse? I think he would support the “No Confidence Vote 2012″ idea…
I would say Ventura has already endorsed your idea. Use his quote. He won’t be hard to find if you want to solicit his help. He is in book selling mode.
Other notable outsiders come to mind. Kinky Freedman for instance. Or Ralph Nader.
By the way. When I say never vote for any Democrat or Republican I exempt Ron Paul. I would also exempt Dennis Kucinich if he were running. And I would probably vote for ANY Democrat opposing Obama in a primary. But none of that would keep me from signing your pledge. Keep it simple and don’t forget the non-voters. Sports figures and celebrities have influence there.
P.S.
You might want to fire off a letter to Al Gore.
I understand your logic about Paul and Kucinich. They certainly aren’t oligarchy but this is an exercise in party busting so I think the affiliation is no small matter. That said, I could support the idea that they are up to individual choice if lots of others involved also felt that way…
Thanks for the ideas. I’ll definitely try to contact them…
Wow, do you really think he would support something like this? Has he left the Democratic party and I didn’t hear about it? He’s about as high profile as it gets. His support would be invaluable…
That was the most awesomest thing I’ve read in a while. That should have been a diary unto itself.
Gore just popped into my head. I very seriously doubt that he would lend his name to a protest effort. But what a prize he would be. If he has a lot of irons in the fire he won’t want to piss anybody off. IF not he has nothing to lose? What about Jimmy Carter? Colin Powell? I can see one of the women on The View giving it a mention. Or Morning Joe. Glen Beck might like it.
Actually making something like this happen is a lot of work and the chance is good that your work will be for nothing. I hope you have at least two people who will give lots of time to this. But if you are inspired – go for it.
Max Keiser would probably love it.
http://www.google.com/search?q=max+keiser&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
Thanks for the tips! I’m trying to get the community here interested in at least discussing the feasibility of this idea further and trying to fine tune various aspects of the strategy. I know it would be a large effort and not something I could do on my own. We’ll see how it goes…
jest, are you in support of the No Confidence Protest Vote idea? Do you have any thoughts on it? I would love to hear what you think of it…
Thank you. I take the time to deal with Engor not for him, but for folks like you that are reading past – and the lurkers that don’t comment.
Friendship request…approved.
The protest vote I have always loved was the election of 1958 in Sao Paolo, Brazil where a rhinoceros was elected as a protest vote. The rhinoceros got the most votes fair and square.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-human_electoral_candidates
Your idea is what I’ve been saying for a while. We should all vote for the same one person/being as a protest vote. It could be anyone we trust (just in case they are elected).
Thanks for that link! It’s great to see ways people have tried things like this in the past…
My idea is slightly different. First, I think it is critical that the votes actually be counted and reported. I’m not sure if that would be the case for non-humans. We would need to look into election laws, etc. As long as the votes would be counted and reported I could support people voting for any entity they like!
Second, I also think it is critical to build a non-partisan coalition. We need to bring together all the disenchanted and cynical people in America. We can’t do that with a person and couldn’t do it as well with a non-human. That is because we could not attempt to bring any 3rd party and independent candidates into the fold if we were promoting a specific vote. I want to see the broadest coalition possible.
What do you think of these tactics?
Have an “None of the above” option on the ballot in every state election and federal election for each office on the ballot.
IE. President
Obama _____ Whomever _____ Whomever ________
None of the above ______
Governor
Democrat whomever ______ Republican whomever ______
None of the above _______
If “None of the above” win for a particular office then the election for that office is declared null and within 30 days a new election is held for that office. The catch being that the only appeal to voters is a mandatory 4 hour every two day debate between the candidates for that office and must be a live feed to the internet. This continues endlessly until one is elected. Questions are 50% live feed from the internet and 50% by persons living in the voting district who show up at the debate site.
Perhaps it’s time to actually have “reality” internet.
——-
& iam pridem, ex quo suffragia nulli uendimus, effudit curas; nam qui dabat olim imperium, fasces, legiones, omnia, nunc se continet atque duas tantum res anxius optat, panem et circenses.
(Juvenal, Satire 10.7781)
I like this idea, but we don’t have it as an option right now. How do you like my strategy for creating some space for something like this under the current electoral system?
We’ve needed this for years. Please do push this. It looks to be the only constitutional means we have left to affect this corruption.
Don’t get everyone arguing about who to vote for.
Keep it simple. None Of The Above.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/None_of_the_above
Everyone can agree, everyone can remember. It can easily be written in. It can’t be laughed off like electing an animal would be.
As to “wasting your vote”, that’s a ridiculous scare tactic. Handing your vote to the R/D coin or spreading it across one of 100s of smaller options only propagates the status quo.
People have been disgusted and staying home for years. “Low voter turnout” is an accepted given. Motivating stay-at-home voters to consolidate into NOTA would send a strong message that would require – at least – a new MSM narrative.
Let’s take a moment to remind Bill of the systemic fraud of American “democracy” along with the biggest liar and fraud in US Presidential history.
Bush and Obama shredded the Constitution and Congress uses it to wipe their collective asses.
Reality check link:
http://www.obamatheconservative.com/
“The message is not that Dems are not liberal enough. The message is that the American government is not representative of the American people. It is a fascist leaning oligarchy that the people do not support (the oligarchy just happens to have 2 parties).”
Very well said and very true. People like Bill Egnor will never admit that, though, because they believe in the capitalist system, and will never propose doing anything more than regulating it some. So, it’s OK to advocate for reform in one of the two major parties, but anything else frightens them. They have too much to lose when the current system collapses, which it will do anyway because it does not work for most people.
I don’t believe the corporate media would cover protest votes. Amy
Goodman would be the only place it would be seen on television.
“There is a reason that no one knows about protest votes, it is because they don’t work. Ever.”
Historically, that’s just not true. The Democratic Party under Andrew Jackson started out as protest votes against the remnants of the Federalist party and the then invincible Democratic-Republican Party. The Republican Party started out with protest votes against the pro-slavery Democrats and Whigs. The Populist Party was a protest vote against the excesses of capitalism that led to early 20th Century Progressive reforms. The one million votes that Communist candidates for President got in 1932 were protest votes that forced the Democrats to actually implement the New Deal.
Nice oligarchical propaganda line, Bill, but it’s not true.
I like your idea. I encourage everyone who is not happy with our two party fascist duopoly to vote third party, especially in Presidential elections. Recommended.
JZ, thanks for the link. This describes none of the above as a valid ballot option in some jurisdictions. Unfortunately we don’t have that choice here so we must work around it.
The U.K. NOTA party described in the article is a pretty interesting tactic that could help work around that problem. I am not sure it’s the best choice here though as it would require officially formig a party and getting ballot access. I don’t think those would be good uses of our time and effort. This would also prevent this campaign from coordinating with other 3rd party and independent campaigns, which I think is very important.
My thought is that if we can bring a campaign into public awareness and the outcome of the popular vote is say 42% to 41% it will be clear that the remaining 17% of the vote was mostly due to this campaign. This will generate the discussion we are looking for on the internet for sure and hopefully in mainstream media also.
What do you think? Do you understand why I have proposed what I did? Do you have any further ideas or comments about the approach I’m shooting for?
You may be right, maybe not. I think a coordinated campaign that garnered 10% or more of the vote would demand coverage. If not, it would certainly present an obvious point of omission when they report the popular vote and a large chunk of the vote went to “other”. Thinking people would notice that and wonder why they were not commenting on it.
More importantly, I believe this would be highly noticed and discussed on the internet. This is very important. Such a movement could help build solidarity and a sense of hope and possibility. It would be a first step on a long road to reform.
Thanks OhioGringo! What do you think about the specific ideas of a non-partisan coalition, organized campaign, and a pledge system?
The idea of voting for other candidates has been around for a long time but has always faced a variety of challenges when it comes time for voters to make a decision in the voting booth. I’m trying to present a strategy to address those challenges as much as possible.
Would you be willing to get involved and help out with a campaign like this?
I’m not sure if you caught this, but JZ provided a link with more info about how this applies in the real world. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/None_of_the_above
With all due respect, Kucinich and Paul should not be given a pass. They don’t deserve it. All our career politicians are the biggest boil on our so called representative governing body.
Here are two career politicians who have never, ever been effective in thwarting the worst legislative shit rammed down our throats. When was the last time Kucinich threatened a filibuster? Or stood by his principals when it really mattered? Same with Paul, no they put their careers first by going along. How bout when Kucinich finally had the chance to do right by us
by putting the kaibosh on Obamas HCR? But, no. We got Mr. Jack Shit gettin’ in line. Just like every loud mouthed Democrat like Weiner, Grayson, Sanders, and all the other power mad traitors, they all got in line.
These shills are the perfect example of the big con. The PTB could ruin every one of them if they wanted to. Look how quickly they smacked down Kucinich’s presidential candidacy. They mocked him from all angles. The MOTU are void of scruples. If they can’t dig up something for real they just make it up, and
that’s the end of political aspirations.
The PTB keeps them around because they serve an important purpose; Kucinich keeps liberal Dem voters from straying far
and Paul serves as the Republican’s libertarin point man.
Rest assured, they are two very useful idiots and they know it. After all, they’re part of it.
The best way for them to preserve what they have is through controlled reform rather than chaotic collapse. I am hoping enough will realize this in time to make it possible. Raising awareness of this fact is part of what I hope this campaign could accomplish…
Thanks for that history OhioGringo! I was not aware of this info. It’s going into an update in the main article.
I appreciate your support clemenza. Thanks for keeping your reply to Bill civil.
I think most of our time and effort will be better spent building a coalition of those who see through the system and parties than arguing with those who still believe in the system and the parties. Some of them will come around eventually on their own. Others never will. There is probably little we can do to influence the way this goes…
I think it’s very understandable that you feel this way. They are not often put to the test as they are not usually in a position to make a decision that will influence the outcome of anything. Would you feel the same if they left the major parties?
I want to build a coalition as broad as possible. It sounds like you think including them (at least while they remain in the major parties) is too broad. I think this is a fair topic for discussion as long as we remain focused on the big picture – getting as many votes as possible for candidates that can legitimately be interpreted as representing the “none of the above” protest vote option. We need to be very careful not to get caught up in disagreement about our feelings about specific candidates. Does this make sense?
Frankly, I think every single person in Congress should be purged, especially the career pols.
Career politicians will always choose saving their own
ass over doing the people’s work. Hence, Kucinich and HCR.
When Obama called on Kucinich to take a little ride on
AF1, he was most likely threatened with everything in their power to make sure it would be his last term in office.
Rather than sticking to his guns and serving the people,
he saved his career. Same with all the hand wringing end the war Dems in the Progressive Caucus making sure Obama always got his war appropriations passed. They actually came out and said the administration threatened to pull party support if they voted against Obama’s war appropriations bill.
This is a huge problem. I can’t understand why people keep letting this shit slide. WTF? It’s totally unacceptable
to make excuses so they can keep their jobs.
They’ve all got the same story. We couldn’t do what you hired us to do because we might lose in the next election. And everyone shakes their heads in understanding. It’s outrageous bullshit! I refuse to reward failure. Why should I support people who keep screwing me? It’s absurd.
I think it might have some limited success for 2012. As Adam503 up there indicated, the corporate media will do their best to ignore such an effort, and if it gets big enough to actually receive media attention the likes of Joe Scarborough will mock it while those like Rachel Maddow will disparage it as only helping the Republicans.
Hell, she’ll probably say it’s even a Republican plot if you can get someone like the Koch Bros to help fund it, which they might. If I were you, I wouldn’t knowingly take money from those bastards.
I have a quibble with the term “non-partisan,” perhaps because of Obama’s claims of bipartisanship every time he does something Fascist. I suggest “pro-democracy” or something like that. Under those conditions, I would happily take a pledge for some elections, but not all. I will definitely vote for my Democratic State Senator and State Representative, for they are consistently progressive.
But I still think you have an overall good idea.
Hate to put on damper the Gore idea, but he’d be a huge mistake. Any big party heavyweight (no pun intended, Al)
is a huge mistake.
They’re part of the machine and the machine would co-opt everything. Before you knew it, the Democratic Party would swallow up and destroy any chance you had of being an independent entity.
That would be hilarious to say about something that started here!
I understand where you’re coming from. I see non-partisan as meaning no party affiliation: set apart from the parties. Obama’s bitpartisan attitude is clearly of the parties. In fact it is essentially turning America into a single party state like China. We just have two names for the party and a pretense of competitive elections here. That is what I hope to break down. Nevertheless I will think about this more and see if something that has a positive connotation from all points of view that might support us is possible.
Thanks for your support! Would you consider getting involved in the campaign if it gets off the ground?
You make very good points. I agree. One of the reforms we need when we get there is some kind of mechanism for accountability. A representative form of government can only work if the representatives actually represent the people. Clearly they don’t in our current system.
Right. They most certainly would not. They only cover the corporate parties shell games.
That shouldn’t stop us though.
Screw ‘em. The MSM ignores reality every single day.
And this is no different.
I wouldn’t let that happen. I would only be willing to work with folks who strongly condemn and abandon both parties. I wouldn’t want to exclude former insiders out of hand just because they had inside but would certainly be skeptical of co-option, etc…
Sounds like you’re on board. Are you willing to help take the next steps with this effort?
Since I can’t answer you directly about the accountability problem, my answer here is this: one term and send them home.
Nothing will motivate them to cut the crap except a real fear of losing their seat.
That is the only motivation that will eventually force them to represent us rather than their corporate paymasters. Again, rewarding failure can’t be an option for the electorate anymore. The only way to send this kind of message is by
kicking all of ‘em out after one term. Rinse, repeat, rinse.
These people are sharks. It won’t take them long at all to
figure out what to do.
Just a suggestion in the life and death fight against
the road to Armageddon.
Maybe you could spend some time looking at election integrity and electronic voting machines and how votes are and are not counted. I would like for you to explain to me how any of this would matter as long as vote counting is done in secret by machines manufactured, programmed and serviced by corporations owned by far-right conservatives.
It seems to me the most effective action citizens could now take is to take back the elections and demand hand counted paper ballots. I would like to see more third parties and support laws that make it easy for third parties to get on the ballot. I also like the idea of none-of-the-above. However, what I would like best is having a system where every vote is counted as cast. That isn’t happening now.
You raise good issues. I’m not sure how to address those, but you are correct that without election integrity it would be difficult for what I am proposing to work. That said, I do believe the pledges in the run-up to the election could influence the debate if this went viral and we received millions of pledges.
If you want to contact Jesse Ventura, you can do it through his publicist:
Jesse Ventura
Nicole Nassar PR
1111 10th Street
Suite 104
Santa Monica, CA 90403
or his agent:
Jesse Ventura
William Morris Endeavor Entertainment
9601 Wilshire Blvd
Beverly Hills, CA 90210
Awesome! Thanks Mulder!
I’m all for removing the oligarchs from power (maybe we should indefinitely detain them at Guantanamo Bay), but like others, I do fear that it might just end up with more Rethuglicans elected, and we know they’re worse than Democrats and Tea Party crazies.
But like Glenn Greenwald says, it’s up to us to hold our elected officials accountable, and the only way to do that is to vote against them, even if it means a crazy getting elected; it’s the one thing that will make them respect the voters, since corporations can’t vote (yet).
You’re absolutely right. I’ll be providing answers to some questions in a follow up post tomorrow. This will address the question of someone on the other side getting elected.
Hi, matthewj:
I’ve read your post, but not all the comments, so maybe this may have been covered somewhere in the comments. If so, and if you can point me to it, I’d appreciate it.
A few days ago I started thinking about this idea of voting for a third party or not voting at all in the 2012 presidential elections to try to show that this two party system is flowed. But more generally, that the representative democratic system is broken. I did a search on facebook and only found one group “Don’t Vote 2011” (with 14 members), and then I did a Google search and found your entry (although it was somewhat back on the queue).
The majority of republican states are based on the idea that the government (state) is a legitimate state because of the will of the people, which is reflected through the voting apparatus. So, grosso modo, with this logic, if a majority of voting age people cannot achieve a majority consensus on who ought to rule, then that government is illegitimate.
I don’t have the statistics of the pool of voters for the last presidential election, and the total of people who voted. But I’m guessing that a significant amount of voting age people didn’t vote; and that there’s probably a significant amount of votes for third party candidates (but again, I’m not sure).
One can go back into the not so distant past to recall the Bush-Gore debacle. Gore wins the popular vote, but Bush takes the presidency. Taking a wild guess, it seems that neither had a majority to solidly declare that ‘the people have spoken’ and declared either of them as a representative.
Anyhow, I could go on typing, but I think that this can have sustainable support, especially with the young population.
With the recent revolution in Northern Africa and the use of the Internet to move people, I think that if we use all the mediums available to us, we can do something. This is how Obama got elected.
Furthermore, I think that you and I–from reading your note–disagree on what constitutes a legitimate government. I think that no government (state) can be legitimate; in short, anarchism is what I subscribe to. But if we can find a way to move people to this idea that the current system is broken and that people should not vote, then I think we have something irrespective of political ideology.
One last thing, some comments state that if this campaign moves forward that Democrats (the lesser of two evils) will be affected. I would agree, but this is no valid argument. The majority of voters see it as their civic ‘duty’ to vote, and that’s the extent of their ‘civic participation.’ So this movement (if it evolves into one) has to be in constant activity to put pressure on politicians–no matter their ideology, and not let it get highjacked by corporate labor unions or minor political parties.
There’s probably much ambiguity and vagueness in my comment, but I’d like to work in a no confidence protest vote (or abstaining from voting) movement. Let’s talk.
Floyd, thanks for your support! I think you really picked up on the key points I am making: there is lots of potential for this to work given the sentiment in the country right now and we will need to set aside differences in order to make it happen. Thanks for offering to work with us! Stick around here at FDL to see how this plays out. It will require a lot of interested folks in order for it to really get off the ground. It would be great to see you around as this evolves…
One thing you can do right away is help to spread the word. If you’re involved in any other blogs or discussion groups please let them know about this. If you’re on Twitter please tweet about this and use the #noconfidence2012 hash tag. If you’re on Facebook please “like” this post and write some updates about it. I would like to see this idea go viral…