rom what I’ve read Ukrainian politics since the USSR breakup has been corrupt beyond comprehension regardless of whether US or Russia puppets the de-facto leader at the time. You ask 100 Ukrainians what they want you may get 100 different answers.
That is true of almost any country that has been occupied or colonized. As with the European colonies in Africa, most of the government was composed of members of the colonizing power, and when the imperial left it took much of its officials. It was worse in the Ukraine because not only were most government officials ethnic Russians, most of the decisions were made in Moscow (due to Stalin’s paranoia of independent decision making he wanted all decision making centralized, ultimately this lack of “eyes in the field” was the cause of the end of the Soviet Union. When the USSR ended, there were no Ukrainians able to assume the roles handled by middle-level bureaucrats in Moscow (who are today’s oligarchs, being in such a position in Russia to seize former state assets). The same has been true in the new countries in Africa and Asia, with the exception of some English colonies because England employed more local officials composed of say ethnic Indians, but still former English colonies such as Nigeria have had trouble with corruption. In sum, don’t expect Ukraine to have made a journey it isn’t yet capable of.
I’ll play billwarren. What do the Ukrainians want?? You complain no one mentions it then you proceed on about a 20 paragraph screed and not one time mention it. You wrote about what China wants. You go ahead and tell us exactly what the Ukrainians want.
Russia out, EU out, USA out, IMF out; Ukraine for Ukrainians (not necessarily defined by ethnicity, but language is important, as with Basques for example). I don’t mean that literally, but I mean that they want the same things everyone wants: self-determination, a government of the people, by the people, for the people. They resent US/EU interference through the IMF, but accept essentially being robbed at the present time as a lesser evil than losing their right to make that tradeoff forever.
My objection with the attitudes of all of you is that you are counterpoising the behavior of the USA as an oppressive force throughout recent history (which is true) with a Russia you seem to know nothing about and therefore judge to be benevolent (which is not true) and then assume that since we are supporting the Ukraine (which you also seem to know next to nothing about except there are some nazis there, like judging the US off a report of a Klan rally) that they must be repressive also. Putin is as venal as the US, and you can’t seem to understand that.
Russia and China just sign an $85 billion dollar oil deal
sound like Russia and China have put Oil above everything else!
there is nothing like OIL LOVE!
In relations between independent states there is no love, only interests, multiple interests determined by a cost/benefit analysis. China can buy oil elsewhere, and will be happy to take advantage of a better deal offered by countries aligned with places where the overwhelming majority of its exports go. China will be legally able (and required) to suspend any deals it has with Russia, and to violate an embargo would mean sticking its neck out to help Russia. And as I note in a post above, China is not inclined to do Russia any favors.
Alert: Cass Sunstein troll.
Are you actually a TRAINED economist, as in some sort of university education? I really doubt it, because I am a professional political economist (no longer a Soviet Politics specialist, I switched in 1990 for obvious reasons) and I can’t believe anyone with more than a 5th grade education would be such a sycophantic fool.
Wow, 108 posts about the Ukraine, and with the exception of a few demagoguing posts about Ukrainian being nazis (are we all nazis because of stuff like this?), nothing at all about Ukrainians or what they want. You people obviously do not know anything about Russia, have never been there, don’t speak the language (unlike me on all counts). And to the genius who thinks China will be a willing buyer of Russia’s oil, :
“Its UN ambassador, Liu Jieyi, told the Council that Beijing respected the “territorial integrity of all states.” He proposed an international mechanism to resolve the crisis, similar to a “contact group” the West wanted and Russia ignored.
The defeated draft resolution would have reaffirmed Ukraine’s “sovereignty, independence, unity and territorial integrity” and declare that Sunday’s referendum in the Crimea “can have no validity.” It did not mention Russia by name. (see text)
The vote was 13 to 1 with one abstention.
“The resounding message from today’s vote is that Russia stands isolated in this Council, and in the international community,” said British Ambassador Mark Lyall Grant.”
Why? Because of a long history, including this (which I will post as none of you seem interested in history):
“In July 1964, Mao Zedong, in a meeting with a Japanese socialist delegation, stated that Tsarist Russia had stripped China of vast territories in Siberia and the Far East as far as Kamchatka. Mao announced that China still had not presented a bill for this list. Outraged by Mao’s comments, which were leaked to the public, Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev refused to approve the border agreements, which had already been reached.
Since around 1900, after the Treaty of Beijing, where Russia gained Outer Manchuria, the east side of the border had mainly been demarcated by three rivers, the Argun River from the triparty junction with Mongolia to the north tip of China, running southwest to northeast, then the Amur River to Khabarovsk from northwest to southeast, where it was joined by Ussuri River running south to north. Because of Chinese weakness, the Ussuri River was demarcated in non-standard manner: the demarcation line was on the right (Chinese) side of the river, putting the river with all islands in Russian possession.
China claimed these islands, as they were located on the Chinese side of the river (if demarcated according to international rule using shipping lanes). The USSR wanted (and by then, already effectively controlled) almost every single island along the rivers.
On March 2, 1969, a group of People’s Liberation Army (PLA) troops ambushed Soviet border guards on Zhenbao Island. The Soviets suffered 59 dead, including a senior colonel, and 94 wounded. They retaliated on March 15 by bombarding Chinese troop concentrations on the Chinese bank of the Ussuri River and by storming Zhenbao Island. The Soviets sent four then-secret T-62 tanks to attack the Chinese patrols on the island from the other side of the river. One of the leading tanks was hit and the tank commander was killed. On March 16, 1969, the Soviets entered the island to collect their dead, the Chinese held their fire. On March 17, 1969, the Soviets tried to recover the disabled tank, but their effort was repelled by the Chinese artillery. On March 21, the Soviets sent a demolition team attempting to destroy the tank. The Chinese opened fire and thwarted the Soviets. With the help of divers of the Chinese navy, the PLA pulled the T-62 tank onshore. The tank was later given to the Chinese Military Museum.
On March 15, 1969, the Chinese troops were repelled from Zhenbao Island with significant losses and did not return until September of that year, when Soviet border guards received the order to not open fire against them.
Further border clashes occurred in August 1969, this time along the western section of the Sino-Soviet border in Xinjiang. After Tasiti incident and Bacha Dao incident, Tielieketi Incident finally broke out. Chinese troops suffered 28 losses. Heightened tensions raised the prospect of a nuclear war between China and the Soviet Union.”
Russia has been dragging its feet about returning territory since the fall of the USSR, including in a meeting between Chinese Foreign Minister Yang Jiechi and Lavrova few years ago. Now, why would China want to help Russia in its illegitimate territorial grab? If Russia reaches out to China it will be stabbed in the hand with a fork.
But keep on fantasizing. I have been posting off and on here since 2009, when the Obamabots called me a tea party troll for calling Obamacare a corporatist sell-out (“take your ball and go home” was the patronizing petulant child metaphor), I fought a battle with Tbogg (it was I who coined the term DBagg)until he left, but I have never seen so many obtuse fools in a circle jerk before now.
I don’t doubt that there will be companies opposed to sanctions on Russia, I don’t rank the heads of firms as among the world’s great advocates for the right of self-determination, democracy, etc. When I was writing my doctoral dissertation on Cat Inc in the 2000s, Cat was pushing Bush II to lower sanctions against Myanmar so they could sell their construction equipment for dam building, mining etc. despite Myanmar being a repressive military dictatorship.
The sanctions on Russia will only escalate, until it is like Byelorussia/ Belerus: government officials will be completely unable to leave Russia and its vassal states, consumers will be unable to get consumer goods (Russia no longer produces large passenger aircraft, passenger cars, most consumer electronics, etc.) and there will be no way to gain foreign exchange. It’s coming.
The difference is, no one cares if they can travel to Russia (as someone who has been there it is about as exciting as Bismark ND), but the oligarchs propping up Putin care that they cannot visit the EU, or that their revenues decline because shipments if gas are banned. Russia is 1% of EU exports, EU is 15% of Russia’s exports). Putin might be content to be the head of a bigger version of North Korea or Myanmar (Milton’s words for Lucifer as he is thrown in the pit: “’tis better to rule in hell than to serve in heaven”), but not his cronies.
I think I will just copy and paste: “Yet another post about the Ukraine that doesn’t say anything about the Ukraine or the people who live there.”
Yet another post about the Ukraine that doesn’t say anything about the Ukraine or the people who live there.
BTW, is a Hong Kong based journal started by a Thai Oligarch really the best you can do as a source:
Asia Times Online was created early in 1999 as a successor in “publication policy and editorial outlook” to the Hong Kong/Bangkok-based daily printed newspaper Asia Times, owned by Thai media mogul and leader of the People’s Alliance for Democracy Sondhi Limthongkul
The People’s Alliance for Democracy (PAD) (Thai: พันธมิตรประชาชนเพื่อประชาธิปไตย) also called the National Liberation Alliance – กลุ่มพันธมิตรกู้ชาติ, Thai Patriots Network or the Yellow Shirts – เสื้อเหลือง – was originally a coalition of protesters against Thaksin Shinawatra, the former Prime Minister of Thailand. Its leaders include media-mogul Sondhi Limthongkul and Major General Chamlong Srimuang. The PAD was a chief player in the Thailand political crisis of 2005 to 2006, the 2008 crisis, and the Cambodian–Thai border stand-off. The PAD consists mainly of royalist upper and middle-class Bangkokians and Southerners, supported by some factions of the Thai Army, some leaders of Democrat Party, and members of state-enterprise labor unions.
“royalist upper and middle-class”: that’s Putin, no wonder you like him. :-)
cause im not
Come back when you have a basic understanding of spelling and grammar, I am typing with one hand, but you can’t even write complete, coherent sentences with proper spelling, grammar and punctuation
you either have not been paying attention or a brainwashed propagandist.
Either/ or statements are indicative of a low level of understanding, e.g. Bush II “you’re either with us or against us.” I am done with you, too.
Your comments completely echo the hollow and dishonest statements made by the US, the Illegal govt. of Ukraine, and the EU, all criminally responsible for the crisis in Ukraine.
You’re an idiot. You don’t discuss, you have diarrhea of the mouth, I am through wasting my time with you.
Like this, in what was then legally part of Czecoslovakia under international law, but mainly occupied by Germans, you mean?
I hope the outcome isn’t the same this time.
Again, you are missing the point by conflating the issue to a great power conflict, or the behavior of the US in the past. Read my reply to Ironcomments above. BTW, I was clubbed and gassed by the police in Colorado Springs CO during an Iraq war protest in 2003 I believe, don’t try grouping me with defenders of US military interventions, that isn’t the issue here.
The events in the Crimea is a reaction to the American empires overthrow of the Ukranian government.
I disagree. There is no question that the US would prefer a pro-US government in Ukraine, mostly to make trouble for Putin, the same way that they funnel money to tea party candidates in Republican primaries. I don’t think they are doing it out of concern for Ukraine’s sovereignty, human rights, etc. As Kissinger once said, countries don’t have friends, they have interests, and that is (sadly I must admit) how countries must behave in their interactions with each other. But that doesn’t change the fact that Ukrainians in general, independent of anything the US says or wants, does not want to be a vassal of Russia. And to call the overthrow of Yanukovych a US coup strains credibility, he was put in power through a fraudulent election orchestrated by the Russians (who also have interests, not friends, and would like to make trouble for the US and EU there). The key is to think about what Ukrainians want, not the interests of the great powers playing games with their lives. (To disclose, my grandfather’s father and mother were from Ukraine and Slovakia respectively, and another grandmother on my father’s side was Lithuanian, so I have a personal antipathy toward Russian empire building).
Empires and oligarchs don’t give a shit about laws and are willing to kill to obtain their objectives.
Exactly. That is why the consensus is that the world should have stopped Germany from annexing the Sudetenland instead of waiting until they occupied
Poland. When will it end?
I should say 24 YEARS for East Timor to gain independence from Indonesia.
Now, regarding the present situation: have any of you, prior to about two months ago, heard any reports of any sort of oppression or genocide of ethnic Russians living in Crimea? I know you haven’t because there hasn’t been any. And certainly the normal process of going to the world community through the UN to make the case and then seek remedies has not been followed. It required 15 years for an election to take place in East Timor. An election of this sort, conducted within the span of two months and without international monitors of even the question on the ballot has absolutely no legitimacy and should be treated as such. And it also raises the spectre of a land grab in violation of the principles at the center of the international system that I outlined in the previous post, that the lines stay where they are unless there is compelling evidence genocide or such.
If you had a brain you would check to see if I posted before:
billwarren November 29th, 2013 at 8:15 pm 77
In response to Demian @ 65
What do you mean “individual volition”? The distributional system under communism is “from each according to his ability, to each according to his need”. We take the productive apparatus that was built under capitalism, remove a self-serving minority that control it parasitically, and reorient production for human needs. If anything, the highly mechanized system we live under now is much better as a base for communism than even England 150 years ago, and certainly better than Russia in 1917, when the majority of the workforce were peasants, and thus much of the material needs of the entire country depended on peasants to supply it (and peasants, who work their own land isolated from one another, certainly do not have the consciousness of modern society to build a self-governing society upon). Today we could switch from capitalism to communism much easier.
Trolls aren’t experts on the post-revolutionary transition. I made other posts but they aren’t in the archive anymore, knocking Obamacare, and ironically, Obama’s supreme court picks, INCLUDING Sunstein. I also wrote an article under a handle I can’t access anymore.
I must say, for someone offering a patronizing lecture on international relations you don’t know the first thing about the state-centric system, established by the Treaty of Westphalia at the end of the Thirty Years War in 1648. The first principle is total sovereignty within accepted borders. It doesn’t matter that the border would make more sense here or there, that the people on this side of the line speak the same language as those on the other, the accepted default principle is that the lines stay where they are. The only exceptions have been cases such as Kosovo or East Timor, where a long pattern of oppression or genocide has taken place, and even after that it only happens after many decades (East Timor had been an issue since the Portuguese left in 1975 until the UN allowed an election in 1999; Kosovo is still nominally part of Serbia), accompanied by peace keeping troops etc Even in cases where the map shows that another country legally owns a territory the map stays where it is (e.g. Lake of the Woods is being occupied by us by mistake, it belongs to Canada). Our system of international law is based on the inviolability of national borders, and this principle is only violated other than the above cases, during wars, indeed such violations are the major cause and only justification of many major wars. I will continue in a second post.
You resort to calling those with whom you disagree “morons”…which reveals more about you than it does about me.
What it reveals about me is that I think Putin apologists are clowns. Please STAY out of here.
Билл Варрен (no “W” in Russian) let’s see you find my handle on the internet in Russian if you think I copied and pasted, you stupid bitch.
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