You are failing to realize the desperation faced by the Palestinians. The Palestinians are being destroyed as a people and many are being killed individually below the attention of the world. When Netanyahu expanded construction of settlements in occupied territories on the day of the new peace talks it should have been obvious to the [...]
Thank you for your response. No need to apologize for length. The next time I read a deep comment in a tweet will be the first.
As you note @143 you and I are closer together than many here in recognizing a place for self defense. I struggle to follow the emphasis you place on the immediacy of the act that justifies the reaction and the high level you find acceptable in the response. I think I misunderstand, but it sounds to me as though you are saying that if an attacker stops his violent behavior because he’s achieved his goals at your expense, your decision to continue the violence to recover what you’ve lost places the responsibility for future violence on you.
The frightening growth of fascism in this country you fear we may be forced to resist is unlikely to take such a direct form. Many thoroughly despicable forms of violence are far less direct. Suspecting that I misunderstand, it seems to me that you could find your definition of self defense too confining in the desperate times when you may need it.
Please understand that I support Israel’s right to exist within secure recognized boundaries. You note that the winners of WW II created Israel. I believe that that the boundaries they established are, with modest adjustments, the boundaries that could bring peace.
You assume that the Palestinians could have lived around the WWII victors’ gift to the Israelis. Here we have a different reading of history. There is an extensive literature documenting Israeli efforts to force Palestinians to become refugees. They had special mortars designed to be very loud and terrifying. That the Israelis came in peace and were met with the implacable hostility of the Palestinians is a myth.
You suggest the Israelis might have been heavy handed in there response to the murder of three young Israelis. It is more clear today than yesterday that the Israelis knew they had been murdered and kept the news secret to justify an assault on a group of Palestinians. My guess, and it’s only that, is that the Israelis planned the events quite carefully to disrupt the unity government. They worked quite hard to goad Hamas into firing rockets.
You and I and most others have complained here regularly about the increasingly violent nature of corporate oppression in this country with the explosion of poverty, environmental degradation, and an infant mortality rate that would shame a third world nation. You note that people here at FDL are not calling for armed resistance. In fact, a number have tried. The moderators ban them. But I accept your point.
But as bad as things are here and as rapidly as they seem to be getting worse, we do not live in Gaza. You are obviously an educated, thoughtful person. Please go to the most neutral sources you can find and read about life in Gaza. The death and destruction we are witnessing are basically a much more public demonstration of what is happening in Gaza continually. You’ve mentioned several times that the Palestinians in Gaza continue, ineffectively, to try to kill Israelis. The attempts to kill Israelis are far too obviously futile. I suspect that Hamas has decided to force the Israelis to kill Palestinians in a more public fashion hoping to force the international community into some intervention.
How can a government deny medical care and nutrition to anemic babies no matter what the sins of their parents? What is the present Israeli government doing to the souls of its own people?
You never answered my most critical question. What can the Palestinians do? They never organized a country, so . . . Neither the Israelis nor Arab elites who, except for occasionally rousing the rabble to distract from their own behavior, are giving the Palestinians as a people a path that leads to life.
I need to leave this evening. I will look tomorrow to see whether you have left a response. In honest inquiry we always learn more from those with whom we disagree.
Good night to all.
All here do not say no violence allowed. There are just wars and unjust wars. There is just conduct in war and unjust conduct in war.
My effort to engage you @73 above is sincere, but it is getting very close to my bedtime.
I am going to take your requests for dialogue seriously. First, I gather that you assume that Hamas’ decision to use the rockets was the immediate cause of the violence or that the murder of three Israeli young people was the cause. As has been noted above 17 Palestinian teenagers were kidnapped in the two weeks before the murder of the Israeli youths. Additionally, the Israeli government has offered no evidence that anyone connected with Hamas’ leadership planned, approved or even had advance knowledge of that attack. There are many splinter groups unhappy with the idea of a unity government in Palestine. There is strong circumstantial evidence that the Israeli government knew the victims were dead early on and kept it a secret to continue the pretext of kicking in doors in regions that are supposed to be under Palestinian authority. They ransacked thousands of homes; arrested hundreds of people who almost certainly had no knowledge of the attack on the Israeli young people; and and killed at least nine. During this period a Palestinian teenager was burned alive. The Israeli government treated that act as a crime. Why is the murder of a Palestinian a crime while the murder of the Israelis is an act of war. It comes at a time when the Israelis very much want to disrupt the unity government.
I’d like to move to your justification for the use of force. I gather you think the Israelis have the right to use any amount of force they choose until Hamas stops launching rockets. Proportionality does matter. The rockets have proven ineffective. Other countries have behaved differently under greater provocation. The IRA was highly effective in attacking British civilians over a period of decades. They also killed soldiers. They were well along in a plot to assassinate a prime minister.
The British government did not respond to these attacks by bombing Dublin. They didn’t even bulldoze houses in Catholic sections of Belfast. In the face of a much more lethal threat the British showed much more restraint. It is possible,but not if your objective is the destruction of a people.
As to the question of why Hamas continues ineffective attacks, the Israeli annexation of Palestine is accelerating. Rabin, possibly the last hope for an honest peace, was assassinated by Israeli extremists. Palestinians in Gaza are being crippled by malnutrition, poverty and overcrowding. A huge majority of young children are anemic. That the Palestinians are losing and the world cares very little seems to be clear. (Anyone who believes the Palestinians could have peace anytime they recognize Israel’s right to exist should read Max Blumenthal’s GOLIATH.) The Palestinian people are being systematically destroyed. Attempting to provoke the Israeli government into an atrocity the world cannot ignore is not at all irrational. AS the Israelis never tire of telling us, the other Arabs don’t want the Palestinians either. What do they do?
Seriously, what do you suggest that the Palestinians do? On the first day of the latest round of peace talks Netanyahu announced an expansion of West Bank settlements. The Palestinians can continue to to be squeezed out of existence below the attention level of the world or they can try to capture the world’s attention with their lives.
They have my attention.
Maybe I can help. High prices causes by taxes going to governments that can potentially use the revenue to subsidize mass transit and alternative energy are not viewed the same way as high prices that increase salaries of corporate executives.
So your a big fan of the Roberts Court. Citizens United? What about earlier Supreme Court decisions that differed from the most recent one? Why do you leave out the “well regulated militia” part? Because the Roberts Court does? Presumably it’s there for some reason. How far do you want to take this right? Scalia [...]
Or at full capacity you could tax people progressively at a rate designed to ensure that debt, while it may rise, will fall as a percentage of GDP. Throw in a progressive inheritance tax and you could start to reign in exploding inequality. .
This is where you lose me. I follow danps,
governments with the power to issue their own currency are always solvent, and can afford to buy anything for sale in their domestic unit of account even though they may face inflationary and political constraints
You can spend all you want on unemployment insurance, infrastructure, or digging [...]
danps, after 18 months of off and on trying to understand MMT, I think your separation of the theory from the normative prescriptions may have put me on the road to success. I’d get one step further if you’d help me understand what MMT adds to Keynes.
This step toward totalitarianism is despicable. But there is one fascinating aspect. What happens when the people making billions violating our privacy start to dampen the profits of the pharmaceutical industry making lots more billions manufacturing and selling the drugs. Somehow I can’t see the makers of these drugs sitting by quietly while people refuse [...]
Very well done!
everyone knows that they have the money because they deserve it. And they deserve it because they are so much cooler than we are, have much better taste, and they earned that money so shut up shut up.
If I may respectfully complete the circle, “The rich have money because they deserve it. How do we know they deserve it? Because they have it.” This central tautology of classical economics is the root of all that follows. Even “Raise prices (on food. shelter, medicine . . .) until supply equals demand.” is rooted in this tautology.
NOW shut up!
frmrirprsn commented on the blog post Hillary Clinton Mocks Snowden, Displays Her Ignorance When It Comes to Whistleblowers
Sorry Twain. You need to look further than Bernie. Years ago Bernie was a social democratic mayor truly interested in the working class. As he moved up the ladder to representative then senator he became less interested in the working class and more enamored with the sound of his own voice pontificating about the plight of the working class, preferably in front of an adoring crowd with a celebrity at his side.
Bernie is a big supporter of basing the F-35 at the Burlington International Airport. As exposed by the Boston Globe, the decision to locate in Burlington was a slab of pork thrown to Patrick Leahy. In addition to being an expensive boondoggle and a lousy aircraft, the plane is incredibly loud. Burlington Airport is in the middle of the most densely populated area of the state. The airport is surrounded by a large cluster of the region’s most affordable housing. The noise from the F-35s is going to drive many of these homes into the FAA’s “unfit for residential use” category. The basing is a disaster for the very people Bernie claims to protect. Please visit the link
Not one member of the VT delegation has ever met with opponents of the F-35 basing.
There are plenty of other indicators. Bernie puts on a show when there’s no way he has the votes. When it’s close, he caves.
No aircraft were involved prior to the destruction of the buildings. The US had scheduled an elaborate drill that had a large portion of fighters away from their usual locations. It’s one of the points people unsatisfied with the official explanation often cite.
But the first fighters over NYC were F-16s from the VT Air National Guard. They were there within hours of the attack.
The F-35 is supposed to do some incompatible things. It has the added benefit of driving out any kind of competition. If it can do everything, why do we need anything else.
Army officers should be all for it. Soldiers die because the AF is not especially interested in the close ground support mission. The army has all those helicopters because the AF has limited the army’s ability to operate fixed wing combat aircraft.
The A-10 was actually effective. (The AF didn’t want to buy it.) The F-35 will be the worst of the lot–high minimum air speed, small payload, limited loiter time, and vulnerability to ground fire. The F-35 may be the biggest boondoggle in the history of weapons procurement.
frmrirprsn commented on the blog post Obama’s Accountable Care Organizations are Just Rebranded HMOs
part of what lost her the primaries against Obama.
She didn’t lose the primaries to O. She got more primary votes than O. She lost the caucuses, where a small number of people with high intensity levels can dominate.
I think the Clintons are far too corporate-owned
If you bother to check contributions in 08 you will learn that the financial industry and the pharmaceutical industry gave more to O than either H or Mc. There is a comforting myth that liberal voters rejected H and selected O. In fact, the PTB knew a Dem would win and did not want H. The only way to stop “Ms. Inevitable” was to take black voters, the most reliable segment of the Clinton coalition, out. The way to do that was with a black candidate they could count on. They did it and he paid off big time.
Since Bill Clinton rejected Heritage/Dole/Obamacare as worse than nothing, the idea that Hillary is tied to it doesn’t hold.
Afghanistan was O’s “right war” during the campaign. It where he planned to, and did, make his bones.
Hilary Clinton is a 3rd Way Democrat, but even among 3rd Way Democrats you don’t find many to the right of O.
This may be one of those occasions where the left and the right can find common ground against the Powers That Be, much like opposition to the bombing of Syria. Conservatives do not look favorably upon the surrendering of US sovereignty to international anything. And quite frankly I’ll link arms with just about anybody who wants to oppose moving from the US judicial system, flawed as it is, to a Star Chamber composed of a rotating group of corporate lawyers on leave from their real jobs.
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