the quality of the listening is less than above reproach

Well, we at least have some kind of limited self-rule, and in that sense there’s no denying broad responsibility. So I agree. Also, I think it takes some practice, insight and education to see objectively the stories we’re embedded in — and that is why authoritarians hate public education. Freedom of insight is not the sort of “freedom” they have in mind.

Meditation is all about relaxing the hold narratives and frames have on us. I’ll stop there too, but thanks so much for adding this important point to the thread.

RevBev, do you have a link to the Pitts piece?

I’m no worshiper of the Adam Smith of “The Wealth of Nations.” He is better in “Theory of Moral Sentiments.” But to the main point: we won’t be pinned down by any of them, and rational choice theory is among the worst of them all.

It would seem like such a reasonable thing for the power-driven to look upon the world and its history and say to themselves, “You know, a lot of people have tried the authoritarian route, and none have come to a good end. I think I’ll relax and read a good book.” I guess many of the power-driven finally do, out of laziness if not insight, but those who don’t sure do cause themselves (and us) a lot of unnecessary pain.

Every wisdom tradition of East and West warns against selfishness. It’s bad karma and hell-to-pay, and hell will be paid. There’s something of the “oh yea, we’ll show you” attitude in American selfishness. Willing it a virtue won’t make it a virtue, though. It’s not hard to see how it twists up the faces and darkens the eyes of the selfish. Happiness just isn’t compatible.

Zappa!

It’s one reason we’ll never create artificial intelligence. We don’t know what natural intelligence is, really. It’s always more and less than we assume.

“…and neither do they spin.”

I suppose since I’m incorrigible I’ll have to drop it tomorrow! Thanks!

Their hierarchical worldview perpetually threatens their masculinity and self-image ’cause they could fail to maintain their place on the cosmic ladder, don’t ya know. If it weren’t so destructive, it would just be sad…

That video is hilarious and effective!

One way we Democrats play into the GOP characterization is by failing to understand the narrative structure of public political rhetoric. Republicans use language to define themselves in the role of heroes saving victims from villains (us). Rather than employ the same melodramatic structure, Democrats are like those characters painted as villains who aren’t villains and try to explain as much using evidence, reason and blah blah, but to no effect. Hence, we look weak.

By the way, the ubiquity of the melodramatic narrative is not necessarily good. It is rather conservative in structure (returning to the allegedly peaceful status quo after the trouble is overcome, for instance). Recent research on the empathy enhancing nature of story, though, may mitigate this. I hope to write about this more in the next couple of weeks.

No, just rhetorical inoculation…

I particularly like that last one!!

Polls here show significant movement away from the GOP by women disgusted with the Right’s misogyny. It’s too early to tell the real election impact, but it is clear that the war on women is real and that we must keep loudly opposing else the issues will disappear into the old memory hole…”I don’t like it, but I don’t want to think about it” is a powerful force in political decision making.

You’re right, no doubt. I suppose I was trying to leave some room and face-saving for some voters who had previously voted republican to come on over to the side of truth and justice without having to completely repudiate their past behavior! :)

Yes, and you’re right. And the distinction between discernment and judgment is an important one, although I was using the former something in the sense of the latter. In any case, we have to be steadfast in opposition to the behavior, else enabling is risk, as you say.

what is the moral imperative for me here? Forgive them, but work for justice?

That’s a profound question, of course. I think some forgiveness is called for, but it’s hard to forgive behavior that’s continuing. So, your ongoing work for justice has to include tough judgments about the destructive behavior, understanding its cause, maybe, but withholding deep forgiveness until the behavior changes.

I actually think there’s something to this feeling of exclusion. Today’s right-wing warriors — Rove, for instance — were obviously not invited to the parties in their youth. And maybe they built a rationalization for that. For instance, “It was my moral strength and conservative vision that led to my exclusion.” I dunno, but it’s fun to think about.