My dear Ohio B,

I don’t think we need to have a total economic system all ready to replace capitalism, or even a complete political system. But we have to have *something* or They will fill that vacuum and We will not like it, guaranteed.

I think if we can forge local alliances we will at least have some hope in hell to work together to manage food, clothing, shelter, which, I submit, none of us can manage very well individually. My guess is that many will not survive, but throw enough mud yada. I have more serious concerns about defense, They got all the firepower, satellites, drones and Kevlar. However, as I say, I am enheartened by the successful resistance to invasion by technologically inferior but very determined societies. I can be very determined.

I also think that establishing local governing units (streets, neighbourhoods), and they can start with community gardens and other innocuous things, and alliances thereof would be real democratic governance rising up beneath the top=down model, and could produce a case of “what if they declared martial law and nobody saluted”. Or at least we would have friends to remember our names and put us on tye plaque should we eventually win.

But what to do about the opportunists, warlords, and the Bad Guys? Stamping my feet and whistling (about all I am capable of) will not Them. So there better be lots of Us, trying lots of ways, and hopefully, some of Us will survive to carry on.

Done. If you can still edit perhaps to delete, or ask mod.

Sorta OT, I have been trying to friend a couple of you so I can get easier access to your comments (TS and OB, for instance) but I am not getting any options to do so. Perhaps it is for the better, I don’t FB b/c I don’t want to puy=ut my own nii8ck in a noose. but I would really like to be able to get connected with you guys. But I understand that it might not be good.

OTOH, I just might be doing it wrong. Any help?

I think one of the diffs betw the Am Rev and now (whatever name this might have in history) is that the British estab did not expect the Am Rev. Whereas, nowadays, it is quite the other way around.

OTOH, I am enheartened by the failure of the Greatest Nation On Earth and the MF, Supreme, Kickass, Paramount Military Power in the Whole Damn Known Universe’s utter failure to conquer Afghanistan.

It’s over? Jeez, after the bell rang John Dean took the leftover questions and answered them

Had hoped for similar from Prof Alperovitz.

Talking Stick,

MI is also has many small counties, one big city and is repub dominated (perhaps you are from there?). THIS IS NO ACCIDENT. As far as I can tell, the only winners in MI are ALEC and Budweiser.

I know about the Cleveland Evergreen coops and about Mondragon. I have even read Mondragon’s Fagor div’s application for an EFQM award – over a hundred pages, all of the fascinating. One of my favs was the part where they basically cut out middle management, for the reason that they added no value to the product that the final customer would pay for (based on studies by Toyota, who Mondragon very much admires). Why, yes, I am an accountant, why do you ask?

Both Mondragon and the Cleveland Evergreen Coops started in very tight-knit communities which were oppressed from outside, which engendered feelings of unity and solidarity. I despair of the bulk of North Americans ever uniting on anything except USA-USA, manufactured objects that have to be pried from cold dead hands and (regionally) sports teams. Perhaps the fact that I am from Michigan (now in Canada) clouds my vision, but that’s what I see there. Canada is a little different, they will take a lot longer to realize they are being attacked, no idea if they will be any better at figuring out by whom.

My thought is that local community is the way that we will learn to govern ourselves in small units, and that we can build up local governance so we don’t degenrate into warlord governance. FWIW, I am working with my neighbours to achieve that (I keep my worries under my hat so as not to alarm them). But how do we protect ourselves from big guys who can command the government? hire Academi?

This G20 confrontation that happened about 5 blocks from my house. Ladies and gentlemen, the revolution will not be an intellectual exercise.

Wow, Gar Alperowitz and DDay in one place at the same time! What a treat!

I seems to me that Gar seems sanguine about cooperatives and worker-based/directed movements, ditto Rick Wolff with his worker self-directed enterprises. I am far from convinced. I am afraid that workers can be as easily suborned as representative govt (eg, who decides who can vote, and who you can vote for? let alone who counts the votes.) Put another way, you ever been on a PTA committee? Or dealt with office politics? To be successful, they will have to be very, very carefully designed, and very, very carefully monitored. I find it disturbing that a very common question to Rick Wolff is, “What is workers don’t *want* to participate in workplace governance? I just want to do my job and go home.” Doesn’t look like a ripe situation to me.

Another example: Toronto Time Bank, started in 2012, members 1 (the founder). I have tried to join, my app has been waiting approval for a week, I have phoned the Toronto founder/coordinator, he doesn’t know why I am not OK’d and I have not found any way to reach the main outfit. If I were paranoid,I would wonder why this works so poorly.

I don’t see an end to abuses, just an opportunity for different ones. How can grass-roots, good-faith types guard against co-option and capture by corporate, bad-faith types? Another example: OWS and other Occupies had homeless, druggies and etc dumped on them as drains. Classic military strategy is not to kill but create wounded, both for the demoralizing effect and the drain on resources. These guys are really, really good at it, have an excellent organization, access to decades of history (revolving door CIA, State Dept, military, etc.) are very disciplined, outstandingly connected, and extremely well funded.

How do us local types, who may work together on specific issues but who are not really all that unanimous (which in general I consider a feature, but still) , how do we identify and ward off threats? Not to mention, working on a shoestring — not an accident!

My gamer friend opines, “If it’s a game, and there are rules, someone will cheat.” How to forstall that? Not the BLS, for sure, or the SEC or the DOJ. We don’t actually have a rule of law in the US (well, unless you are Bradley Manning).

As a martial artist, I recognize that the first step in self-defense is to realize you are being attacked. I don’t see this realization in Canada or the US. Punishing Iranians, Afghanis, Iraqis who are basically minbding their own business apparently creates terrorists. North Americans seem to be immune to this effect. Too ‘patriotic’? too brainwashed? Too much work?

Meanwhile, reading as fast as I can so I can ask not-too-stupid questions. And am a slow typer, you probably already answered this… sorry.

Then we force their kids into Gay marriage)

Eww, who would want them?