Problem is Kelly, people are believing it if you believe the polls. The Democrats have their work cut out for them because it is very hard to talk about why that 700B is coming out of medicare advantage in a short but understandable way. They’ve got 5 days to figure it out.

I’m not a fan of the Romney/Ryan ticket, but even I disagree with that assessment. Ryan was a star tonight, just like Palin was 4 years ago. While it’s no surprise that a convention crowd is buying what he’s selling, the test will be if the rest of the country does.

I didn’t hear the Ed Schultz show discussion, but I’m sure it was done in the context that while he criticizes Obama for not tackling the debt/deficit, he wouldn’t support a proposal that (whether you agree or not) was seen as doing just that.

The problem is that while you may not like Obama, the offensive of Romney/Ryan on Medicare is working. I often hear my liberal friends say that Americans are too smart to buy into what they’re saying. Apparently not. This is the power of money in politics. Unfortunately, once in office, those people will learn the truth, but it will be too late.

FDL posters should be aware that the latest rumor going around is that the shooter is from a violent faction of the Occupy movement. These things always get politicized, but you can bet Rush Limbaugh will focus on that story line.

Chump here. I’m not about fear. I’m about results. My only concern right now is how to overcome the power of money in an electorate that is clearly susceptible to a well-crafted message. The groups you cite aren’t just about discipline; they’re about money. The pols fear them because they fear what their money can do. Why do you think Grover Norquist is so powerful? Because every time someone wouldn’t sign his anti-tax pledge, he’d round up the money to bury that person in negative ads, and he was often successful in unseating them. That wasn’t done with his personality. It was done with money.

Not every change may require a vote, but if the change requires others to do or not do something, doesn’t that usually imply the need for a law and enforcement?

I don’t doubt people will rise up; but realizing the fundamental, systemic change they seek is much harder. See Syria.

Change originates from the outside, but it takes alliances on the inside to have it become structural. e.g. unless the laws are changed, gays in most places can’t legally marry. Supporters can hold rallies, they can get compelling spokespeople, they can boycott businesses that aren’t gay friendly or support those who are. But unless they get either legislators or judges who are willing to carry their cause or side with their case, all you’re left with is moral support. I’m just saying the insider doesn’t always have to be the enemy.

Yes, the GOP of course got involved because Walker represents their mission statement. He is part of a larger plan. It’s clear that Democrats saw the writing on the wall, and knew that even many union households actually supported Walker. So why go to the mat for a race where the majority of the state, at least per polling, didn’t seem to have a problem getting rid of collective bargaining? They’re not necessarily anti-union, but obviously they didn’t feel the governor deserved to be recalled over the issue.

I have no doubt defogger that OWS is working to help people. But in terms of a movement getting to the point where it can really influence policy, that’s what the tea party did. They had lots of help from powerful, rich interests and Fox News, but it’s still hard to deny its influence in this current congress. I just think people risk losing a lot more by going with the “let it get even worse” strategy. I know you don’t like voting the lesser of two evils, but if you go for the all or nothing approach, you obviously must be prepared to live with the lesser of those two options as well.

I agree. There should have been more outrage. But CA is a different place and people were very susceptible to the kick the bum out attitude in the midst of the Enron antics (which sadly few knew at that time were Enron antics)that were causing such huge rate hikes. Things may not be great in WI, but the whole state isn’t reeling the way CA was back then. Walker was targeted for recall because he lead the way on the collective bargaining issue. Davis was targeted because(among some other things) of his perceived mismanagement/lack of leadership in the energy crisis.

Why would it be better? Are you one of those people who thinks that if things get worse people will eventually rise up and force fundamental changes?

Look at Occupy. No one even talks about it in the media anymore, and whenever they do, it’s usually negative. Better yet, look at what’s happening with the Arab Spring. Surely this isn’t what many Egyptians were hoping for when they ousted Mubarak. I think that type of revolution is easier said than done.

I don’t think Obama making a token appearance in WI or even the DNC sending more money would have mattered. Many Wisconsinites didn’t like the whole recall idea and they showed it. The sad thing is that had they not pursued the recall, nature may have taken its course and Mr. Walker’s unpopularity could have risen just due to his record and legal problems. Instead, the recall elevated his profile and embattled hero status even more.

I’m reminded of that line from Jurassic Park that sort of went “they were so busy wondering if they could, they didn’t stop to think if they should.” They may have assumed someone like Feingold would run, but he said early on he wasn’t interested. Then they have a primary party battle and labor is seemingly disgruntled with the results. The result is a rehash of the same race that occurred 18 months earlier. The May 8th primary date leaves less than a month to campaign before the recall, and all that occurs when many colleges were probably already out of session, thus losing a valuable organizing and voting block.

I just think all that time, money and energy would have been better spent on the November elections (which they’ll still have to do if they want to hold onto the State Senate). Now, it’s unclear if they’ll be too dispirited to even fight for what they did attain through the recalls.

So what does that mean? Would you like to emulate the tactics of the President that are under criticism right now and assassinate a few people with drone strikes? If you’re going to do the all caps BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY then have the courage to say what that involves.

Liberals, progressives, democrats whatever you want to call them have a choice at this point. They can wring their hands, blame money and voting machines and basically cry about how it’s so unfair, or they can sit down and brainstorm different strategies to bring people to their side. Clearly appealing to their better angels is not working. Clearly we have to go out and get them because they’re not engaged enough politically to come to us.

If people are selfish, so be it. Then try to drive home how it’s in their self interest to vote against conservatives. But if your solution is just BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY, you end like Syria. Yes, those people are fighting valiently…and dying in droves. If that’s all we have left as a strategy, then I’ll curl up in a fetal position too.

No, I think people mostly were against the recall, and that explained a lot of what you saw. Still there was talk even a couple months ago that the issue of defending collective bargaining was not a winner in WI, and that if they thought people would rally to their defense in that area, they were wrong. So I think the poke at unions did play some role, though in general I think many thought recalling him for that reason was unjustfied.

So are you planning to just curl up in the fetal position and die? You complain about progressives not fighting but it sounds like you’ve pretty much given up.

I don’t disagree with you that the pendulum has swung back to the more conservative side of the spectrum, and liberals will probably suffer some additional set-backs. You don’t always win every fight, but if you don’t fight, you always lose.

I agree with you. Unions are not popular anymore. Even my family or friends who support things like same sex marriage, abortion rights, etc. talk about the “union mentality” in terms of work ethic, and that’s obviously not a positive opinion. It’s in part of reflection of hard economic times, but that mentality existed even before the latest recession.

I don’t think everyone who voted for Walker did so because they like him as much as they were against the recalls in principle. And to some extent, I agree with them. I don’t like Scott Walker, but the people voted him into office in 2010. I realize the claim is he never ran on ending collective bargaining, but it would seem his political history could have at least shown he was not a fan of the unions.

The issue of money in politics is directly related to voter apathy and non-engagement. If people want to overcome the power of money, we’ll have to figure out how to get citizens more aware so they don’t fall victim to the lies and deception of slick advertising.

Boy, for a website that I felt valued diversity and tolerance, apparently that doesn’t extend to musical tastes!

I wasn’t the world’s #1 disco fan, but some of the music was catchy and fun to dance to. There are plenty of music genres I don’t particularly like (country, free jazz, rap) but I’m not bitter that they exist! And I actually think the BeeGees were talented; if nothing else, they certainly were talented businessmen.

Years ago I took a music appreciation class at Stanford. I remember the teacher saying that you have to learn to appreciate the difficulty, complexity and originality of a composition. Essentially, whether a song is pleasing to the ear was seen as almost irrelevant. Well, that’s a nice theory, but it’s not reality. If you don’t like listening to it, it doesn’t matter how complex and creative it is-you’re going to turn it off. Apparently a lot of people liked listening to disco…until they didn’t anymore.

Oh, no worries for NOM or anyone else who agrees with them. They will do what others have done in recent years regarding the NAACP – disregard them as irrelevant. If you think I’m wrong, listen to Rush Limbaugh or Fox Newsy folks over the next week…they will employ the divide and conquer strategy, meaning the NAACP does not represent the views of most blacks, just like they now say AARP doesn’t represent the views of most seniors, NOW doesn’t represent the views of most women, etc. etc.

The reason the tea party and far right are more successful than the far left is because

1) the far right is pretty much in sync with corporate interests, so their partners are already power wielders. The left has George Soros and George Clooney. The far right has oil and gas, banks, megachurches, defense contractors, etc. etc.

2) the other reason is something I think people on this site don’t want to accept – more Americans agree with the far right than with the far left. Thirty years of a superb messaging campaign has successfully painted liberals as freeloading, entitled, lazy, valueless individuals.

What’s interesting is that with healthcare, supposedly (if polls are to be believed) people do really like elements of the healthcare law. The fact that the far right is unbothered by that shows how supremely confident that this won’t hurt them and people will support them even as they’re being denied insurance for a pre-existing condition.

I would be very careful about your wish. Those who wait for things to hit rock bottom risk an existence like Syria right now, where people are motivated and inspired but the power structure is too entrenched and will just wear down (or mow down) the opposition. It’s very hard to fight back when there are no further avenues to help balance the scales. For example, people look for help from the courts, but if the courts get packed with more GOP appointees, that option falls to the wayside as well.

Walker is probably going to win, but it’s very important to try to make it close. As Karl Rove said, the wider the margin, the more they can tout the message that this is what the “overwhelming” number of the American people want. Instead I think people need to move on to other battles and try to stem the momentum.