Things change when you get the votes to change it. Not a second before. I am outraged about poverty and a whole bunch of shit. It’s not changing.
That’s because not enough people are outraged about it. Most people don’t act unless they’re outraged. And a lot of people would be (and are) outraged once shown the actual extent of poverty in America. But they simply don’t hear about it.
…you seem to think that everyone in America is going to Gitmo for …checking ESPN from work.
No, of course not. But I think you are too quick to gloss over just what this information can potentially be used for. Do you really want “anonymous Administration sources” revealing to reporters that opposition candidate Edgar Friendly made a series of phone calls to recently-convicted prostitute Mata Hari five years ago? Or that his brother Frank the fertilizer salesman once exchanged calls with a known associate of Abu Salim who later exploded an ammonium nitrate bomb in a Baghdad market? Or one night the FBI bangs on your door and hauls you downtown for questioning because one of your friends just got busted for growing pot in his attic and your cell phone placed you at his place numerous times over the past year? On and on.
The government possessing this information is different than a private business possessing it. A private business has no motivation to ruin your life for political purposes; the government does. A private business cannot arrest you and send you to jail without charges for merely being an associate of someone accused of a crime. The government can. And for every hypothetical you can construct showing how this can’t happen, I can construct another one showing that it can.
And as far as being busted for checking ESPN from work…maybe not. But what would your employer do, if that information happened to find its way to his desk after you made yourself a particular thorn in the side of someone with access to it…
So – only a vanishingly small number of political junkies remember Total Information Awareness?
Clearly that would come as a shock to you, but I bet a poll would reveal that relatively few people *ever* knew about TIA or what it was. Of course you, me, and Bogg remember it; and I’m sure you remember that a huge stink was made about it in left-blogistan, too, when its planning was revealed. But just because this is nothing new to us doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be opposed with equal or greater vigor. Wrong is wrong.
Outrage as a goal is as unproductive
Wrong, it is entirely the point. There must be outrage before policy change can happen. If nobody’s outraged, then why should the government change the policy? They put it in place because they thought it would be a good idea to do, for whatever reason. Until they are shown that their reasons are insufficient, and that their policy is instead seen as outrageous, they will not change it. They have no incentive to do so.
…as is the exaggerated shock and horror at the realisation that there is a long-term surveillance system in place which at the moment is sweeping up every bit of elint that can be found. That you were unaware of this
I was not unaware of it. I was fully aware of it, even before Snowden’s leak proved its existence (thanks to reporting I trust from Glenn Greenwald, and from others), and I categorically disagreed with it from the start. I don’t consider myself to be suffering from “exaggerated shock and horror.” I am truly fearful of how this information can be used against American citizens (not just myself) for purposes entirely unrelated to terrorism, and I hope the NSA program is ended.
You must be easily confused then, because the whole Odyssey has been endlessly hashed and rehashed. And it’s completely irrelevant. Snowden being interesting should have ended long ago. The real, and only, story is the NSA program.
When we set up the FEMA Camps I’m going to make sure this goes on your personal record.
No need, it’s already there. Thanks to the NSA.
You seem to equate the NSA keeping tabs on everyone you’ve talked to, when, and for how long as some kind of innocuous thing. I don’t understand why, given all that has been repeatedly explained ad nauseam by many many sources other than Greenwald, you continue to persist in dismissing the gravity of it. It’s like you’re in some kind of conspiracy theory overload; there’s so much bullshit around to the point that even legitimate issues can’t penetrate. So your best response is to make jokes equating the NSA revelations with the “FEMA camps” nonsense and whip out the metaphorical popcorn. Well, all I can say is, I hope you’re right, because if you’re wrong it’ll be too late to have regrets after we wind up in Gitmo together. Oh, right, that can’t happen here.
Don’t worry, be happy!
Boss Nass couldn’t do Jehdi mind tricks.
OK Sheldon, but I bet he could spell “Jedi.”
Is Tbogg the Sith Lord or is he the apprentice?
More like Boss Nass.
Wow, I missed a huge party. Now all I can do is look at the wreckage like the Geico Gecko in that commercial and wonder what happened.
One part I liked was @153 where TBogg used his telepathic superpowers to tell us what Snowden was actually thinking when he decided to take one for the team: “This’ll make me famous!” Yeah, I bet that was his motivation. What the heck, it worked for Lee Harvey Oswald, right?
Another goodie was when he wondered aloud @148 and @180 what super-damaging super-secrets he might have spilled to the Chinese/Russians/North Koreans that we don’t know about. You may not have heard, T, but the Chinese already got the plans for the F-35 and they didn’t need Snowden to get them.
But the real piece-de-resistance was @235 where the Bogg-man got tired of the festivities and brought everyone down by saying what he really thought:
My initial response to Greenwald/Snowden was that they were reporting nothing that we didn’t already know, but they implied law breaking where there (aside from Clappers testimony) wasn’t any.
This shows a complete lack of understanding of the situation. One would have to not only not know what the law is, he would also have to have not read a single thing Glenn and many others have written on the subject of warrantless surveillance over the past 10+ years. That’s the only possible explanation I can come up with for making such an astoundingly misguided judgment.
Oh well. Nobody’s perfect.
liberalrob commented on the blog post Democracy and Now Capitalism Are Failing Ideologically; But What Comes Next?
Minor grammar pedant kvetch: too many paragraphs starting with “But.”
I keep seeing arguments that we need a new constitution. I don’t agree, the one we have is just fine. As I see it, where we have gone astray is a disconnect between the leadership class and the general public. Our leaders may as well be Martians for all intents and purposes, as far as comparing their lifestyles to the “average American.” In general, they do not have a sense of the impact of their policies on the public they were elected to serve. Also, our leadership class has fallen victim to some really bad ideological hokum, malignant zombie theories of morality and ethics tracing back to Social Darwinist philosophies of the late 19th century.
More than anything else, I say we are suffering from a massive failure of our educational system. The fact that large numbers of citizens can actually believe that these nonsensical, harmful theories are worthy goals for America to aspire to implement, even in the face of evidence of the direct harm those policies will do to the people’s own interests, is damning evidence of this failure. Until that is addressed, it doesn’t really matter what we try to offer.
We don’t need “something else” to offer. We need to find a more effective way to offer what we already do. We also need a citizenry that recognizes why we exist as a nation and as a society, what “society” means and why it is important to have one. From that basic understanding and acceptance of the concept, I think progressivism naturally occurs.
liberalrob commented on the blog post Security Firms Pitching Bank of America on WikiLeaks Response Proposed Targeting Glenn Greenwald
A conspiracy theorist might wonder if there was link between these government experiments, this BofA Wikileaks report, and Glenn’s recent disease.
liberalrob commented on the blog post Ireland, Greece Sink Further Into Debt After Austerity Measures
Universal health care has failed everywhere it’s been tried!
When you cut taxes, you increase revenue!
Government is the problem! It can’t do anything right!
Social Security is broke! The trust fund is all IOU’s! The money’s already been spent!