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As a NY Times foreign correspondent for over twenty years, Stephen Kinzer found himself in one hot spot after another. Author of many books including "Overthrow: America’s Century of Regime Change from Hawaii to Iraq". Stephen knows his stuff about Afghanistan. He also recently visited Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Israel for his next book. And will visit Iran in the spring. Get a sneak preview of his latest thesis on what we really should do in the Middle East by listening to the podcast. Kinzer on Afghanistan, Iran, Turkey,Israel and Saudi Arabia
It has something to do with where there really is democracy as opposed to the places that really aren’t ready for it.
Stephen has a great chapter on Afghanistan is his book "Overthrow". But he has some new insights since the book was published in 2006. Did you know that a recent military casualty in Afghanistan was conducting voter registration? Since when do we have soldiers acting as community organizers like ACORN? This is FUBAR! The scoop from his friend who is in Afghanistan about the voter registration is at about 15 minutes into the interview.
Kinzer says that the Taliban is using "a new marketing idea". They can’t sell their ideology that wants to ban "kite flying" and "throwing acid at girls." Instead they are positioning themselves as being against the nasty feudal landlords and with the people. They actually killed a couple landlords to make good on this "repositioning". He says our idea of the way we want to see a future Afghanistan and Pakistan of peace and kumbayah is cool and just fine. And if we could make that case on ideology, we might prevail. But Kinzer says that "Who’s from here?" as opposed to a country 5,000 miles away is winning the argument. They trust people closer to home. So the poor Pakistanis hate the corrupt regime in power and don’t trust us. With the Taliban’s repositioning, they may win the people’s hearts and minds.
Kinzer says that our military policy in Afghanistan is seriously flawed. "We make the rules". "We have this ‘can do’ mentality. We built the Brooklyn Bridge, Panama Canal, the transcontinental railroad… That can do mentality…has its limits…it helps you when you are facing obstacles of technology, or of nature or of other people. But when you are facing the obstacles of another culture… actually can get you into a very deep mess." Because there are just some things that just wanting to do it with just plain old American know how, is not going to be able to accomplish."
On the positive side, if we ally ourselves with real democratic societies in Turkey and Iran instead of fighting the Cold War again with allies like Saudi Arabia and Israel, we might have a shot at stabilizing the world. Yeh, I’m sure that’s what this Mc Chrystal and the Pentagon have in mind. It looks to me like the Taliban knows their customers better than McChrystal.
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Despite the fact that my cohost and I had a mild case of food poisoning, we managed to have two great interviews on our Saturday show. We’ve had Stephen Kinzer on twice before. He has amazing insight. But will they listen to him? I just think we have a whole bunch of control freaks in charge who want to roam the world like some LA gang looking for trouble.
Of course that argument wins, I think it will always win. Occupiers like us have a really short window to make positive change. It’s long since run out on Afghanistan.
Kinzer says we are fighting a 15th century war and should start fighting a 21st century. Kinzer says Afghanistan is perfect example of “culture clash”. Kabul was never a capital like Washington or London. They had local councils in which respected elders worked out a consensus and then everybody did it. You had to earn respect. You could not shoot your way or buy your way into power.
Oh but we had a better idea. Afghan needed a centralized government. And have elections. So we introduced an electoral system. Then the way to lead/win the election was how much money you had or how many guns you had. So we got rid of a good democratic system and replaced it with our corrupt one.
(This discussion is about 10 minutes in.)
You have to be out of your mind to think there is ANY way we could ever “win” this thing. We are on the losing side of every paradigm. As if being an occupying force weren’t enough.
The only thing the standard military knows how to do is kill and be killed. I’m sorry. That’s the game.
Meanwhile, the number of and respect for peacekeeping forces is being eroded. Even Canada whose significant contribution on the world stage is peacekeeping has been drawn into a military role in Afghanistan. The damage to more positive traditions is incalculable.
Under Bush, France tried to be the head mediator and mover and shaker. Bush didn’t like it and Americans who supported Bush back then boycotted French Fries. When Russia tried to stand up to Muslim extremists in Afghanistan and Chechnya, they made Muslims in general far madder than Bush who insisted that Muslims like the King of Jordan was the US’s friend.
China as an atheistic country is particularly getting Muslims mad over Uyghur.
If the US withdrew from Afghanistan, and left Pakistan alone, China and Muslims would be fighting and perhaps India again fighting with Muslims as well.
We also have the problem of al Qaeda wanting to inherit Pakistani Nukes.
A major goal of bin Laden is to bankrupt the US as we spend and incredible amount of money on smart weapons as they spend a little or save money on food and care expense by equipping a retarded child or downs syndrome old lady as a remote-controlled suicide bomber.
Something got to be done but the US doesn’t have the authority or patience to do it.
We are going to have no peace until there is some sort of World Federation see,
http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/8316
“Obama’s Policies are best but Afghanistan is tripping thing up”
I think learning that the women in Afghanistan wanted us OUT NOW, when so many are concerned about their safety and rights. WTF are we doing there … doesn’t sound like we are cultivating trust and bonding.
Interesting insight on the “can do” perspective.
There is at least a 50% change of the progressive agenda getting unglued by Afghanistan. No discussion only a few like Montanamave, seeming to say that its best to state the war is senseless without mentioning Obama’s name.
Since the Progressive agenda trying to claim Bush is the cause of our pain and Obama the solution. Similarities in their Afghan policy gets this unglued as well.
As I said earlier expensive smart weapons have something to do with al Qaeda’s confidence of baiting the US toward bankruptcy.
When Obama first announced the closing of Guantanamo al Qaeda made Jamal al-Badawi of the Cole bombing figureheadly the second in commend in Yemen, helping conservatives argue that Guantanamo should stay open, And following Abu Ghraib when Majority Leader Bill Frist was on the air about to call for bipartisan detention reform, news of Nick Burg being beheaded cut him off the air. So al Qaeda doesn’t make it easy for the US to stop fighting them.
Maybe I’m wrong and people like Montanamaven are right that its best for antiwar people to pretend that Obama doesn’t exist, and for others to pretend that Afghanistan has nothing to do with not getting health care reform.
However, my angel allows one to say Obama is making a mistake in Afghanistan without calling him evil or stupid.
RICHARD KANE
http://www.capitolhillblue.com/blog/2419
There is at least a 50% change of the progressive agenda getting unglued by Afghanistan. No discussion only a few like Montanamave, seeming to say that its best to state the war is senseless without mentioning Obama’s name.
Since the Progressive agenda trying to claim Bush is the cause of our pain and Obama the solution. Similarities in their Afghan policy gets this unglued as well.
The US spending ever increasingly on smart weapons to save US Soldier’s lives as al Qaeda suicide bombs for pennies on the dollar and confidently expects US bankruptcy sometimes in the future.
Al Qaeda wants to inherit Pakistani nukes and India and Pakistan might get into a nuclear war if the US takes a low profile.
Russia and China would be fighting with al Qaeda if the US takes a low profile getting Muslims in general mad a lot faster than the US. And if Iran ends up in the forefront against al Qaeda it could lead to a total war between Sunnis and Shiites.
Maybe I’m wrong and people like Montanamaven are right that its best for antiwar people to pretend that Obama doesn’t exist, and for others to pretend that Afghanistan has nothing to do with not getting health care reform.
However, my angel allows one to say Obama is making a mistake in Afghanistan without calling him evil or stupid.
RICHARD KANE
http://www.capitolhillblue.com/blog/2419
Oh, I’m perfectly willing to call out Obama on his policies both in Afghanistan that is seriously flawed and on health care which is really screwed up. That’s because he’s not a progressive or liberal. He’s a conservative and a hawk. I wanted to concentrate on some really smart ideas by a man who has written about the connection between our corporations from United Fruit to Exxon and our backing bad guys and belligerently trying to import our screwed up political system to places that actually had better systems before we interfered.
He says in the first part of the interview that Holbrooke and Gates are fighting past wars and even 15th century wars not 21st century ones.