A striking thing occurred last night during FDL’s Virtual Town Hall with Rep. Alan Grayson.
Not so striking, perhaps, to dyed-in-the-wool Democrats who toe the party line no matter what. But to a lifelong Independent like me, it was not merely symptomatic, but downright diagnostic as far as what precludes even the slightest gains for the kind of common-sense, people-first Progressive reforms that have been shown to be favored by a majority of Americans for generations.
Some context:
The virtual town hall was an online event for FDL members, the second in recent weeks (the first opened the discussion on what FDL’s 2012 strategy should look like). These are highly informative, interactive sessions where members discuss the topic at hand after a PowerPoint presentation and some discussion amongst the presenter and FDL staff.
Last night, Rep. Grayson gave an eye-opening presentation based on a government report about who has wealth in America. The stark numbers – most notably (for me, at least) that 25 percent of Americans have a net worth of $1,000 – were presented by Grayson in the straightforward, sarcastic, often darkly humorous style for which he is famous. After taking a few questions from FDL staff, the floor was opened to firepups, who did their usual stellar job of cutting right to the chase.
What stuck me was how, after several questions and Rep. Grayson’s characteristically direct answers, the one question he did not have what I could consider a “good” answer for – indeed, the correct answer – was some variation of: “So what do we do to change things?”
Now, let me just state that I have nothing but praise for Grayson’s presentation and his terrific interactions with FDL members last night. And at one point, he came very close to that “correct” answer, the one each of us, in our heart of hearts, knows that someone of Grayson’s stature must eventually stand up, boldly state, and unashamedly own. Responding to Jane Hamsher’s question, “Well – so, what can we do?,” Grayson replied: “We have to put one of us [meaning a Progressive] in the White House.”
At other points in the conversation, Grayson had high praise for Dennis Kucinich – perhaps the only true progressive we have in the House at present; and for Elizabeth Warren, the woman who would lead the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau – if only our sold-our president had feet of something other than clay. Grayson waxed nearly poetic about these two incredible public servants’ dedication to bettering the lives of common people, and their selfless work in trying to make the headway we so desperately need for them to make.
But in the end, Rep. Grayson gave his pitch for re-electing Barack Obama, stating that anything other than an Obama victory in 2012 will mean the last gasp for the middle-class and poor Americans. Bluntly, the same old lesser-of-two-evils crap.
I have no absolutely no doubt that Grayson, Kucinich, and Warren have only the best intentions. But when Rep. Kucinich gets on Air Force One in Cleveland opposed to the Health Insurance Giveaway and gets off in Washington prepared to vote for it; when Professor Warren refuses to see the handwriting on the wall – that she is not going to be doing anything of real consequence for Wall Street as a member of the Geithner/Obama syndicate; and when Rep. Grayson says we need a Progressive in the White House one minute but endorses the fatally flawed justifications that have taken us to the edge of cataclysm, intentions become meaningless.
All three of these leaders were among 10 selected by “MyFDL” readers last fall as preferred opponents to Barack Obama in the 2012 Democratic Party primaries, the same process in which the New Progressive Alliance was born. Without mutinous behavior – i.e., REAL leadership – on the part of such outlandishly bright, capable, deeply caring people as these, their good intentions will serve only to pave our Road to Hell.
Here’s hoping one – perhaps all – of them will step up to the challenge we now face. That they will take faith from the political winds – now blowing the world over, from Cairo to Madison – which portend the rise of common people against the oligarchs and plutocrats whose grip on power in this country must be released, if we are to have any hope of leading secure lives, in peace, on a healthy planet.
Anthony Noel
NPA Facilitator



129 Comments

It is sad to think that as much as we want to dismiss the lesser of two evils paradigm, I don’t think the system can be reformed.
It isn’t as much about the person in the White House, but how campaigns are managed and funded. In the course of an election cycle, all politicians sell their souls to the monied interests. They cannot resist, because the day after they are elected they are running for reelection.
The politician themselves can always hide behind the fact that their opponent is even less in line with their constituent’s views, but in the end they are corrupted to serve the powers that be from the very start.
I think the system needs to collapse before it can be reborn. We as citizens failed this government. We allowed politicians and the Supreme Court to corrupt it. We were weak and self interested. We were unable to affect real change. The government is able to slap the label terrorist, communist, whatever on someone and then they are null and void. The Cold War was the end of our system and everything is now for the good of the nation, not the citizens.
The system is doomed. I’ll make my lame vote for a 3rd party candidate, but I know it won’t make any difference, especially in Texas, where everyone outside of my county and the one adjacent to it are idiots and red neck morons who blindly give it all to the Republican party. It is hard to believe there was actually a Democrat in the governor’s mansion a couple decades ago.
I remember vividly a simpleton co-worker coming in one day proudly proclaiming that he voted just like the NRA had told him to do so. I asked him if he knew anything about the candidates and he of course said he didn’t. We are doomed.
Thanks for debunking Grayson’s defense of the lesser evil Tony!
I agree with wirerat1; we are doomed!
Doomed not because of the 1% to 10% who are the elite and the politicians; but we the ululating mindless cruel, crude mass that is the bulk of us. This in my humble opinion makes it unfixable.
Step 1 in changing the system of learned helplessness for Progressives in the political system is tearing up the lesser of evils script, as you’ve written before. Good post.
I don’t see why a good candidate who loves his country and sees it going down the drain comes into office and raises Hell for four years and not worry about getting a second term. At least he/she gave it a try.
It’s easy to fall into the “we are doomed” line of thinking, wirerat1, and I’d be lying if I claimed not to find myself there as often as not. But to me the key is not going quietly, and it sounds like the same is true for you, given your plan to vote third party.
The beauty of the Internet is things can go viral, and when than happens, there’s no telling where it could go. So newprogs.org will keep trying to wake people up, and keep pushing for civil disobedience within the the electoral process. If we who are paying attention take enough votes away from those who work for our oppression, we might wake up enough of those who don’t pay sufficient attention to create at least a voice for Progressive reform – and perhaps, a facts- and street-based movement for it.
Thanks for your thoughtful reply.
We are on either the slow road or the fast road to Hell but it’s the same road whether we elect a Democrat or a Republican. I’ve advocated for some time the only method to change our Dem-Rep regime is to defeat all fake Progressive at any cost. Obama/Clinton triangulation only succeeds if Progressive accept the lesser of two evils. The lesser of the two evils is the most evil in the long run.
Can anyone believe Joe Biden is actually negotiating the end of Medicare?
Clinton passed NAFTA and WTO then gutted Glass-Steagall that led to current economic crisis.
And I voted for both of those worthless fake Progressives bastards. Never again! I’ll take GHWB and John McCain and let them disappoint Republicans. GHWB couldn’t have passed NAFTA and John McCain wouldn’t dare gut Medicare and SSI. But the Democratic lesser of two evils have no choice, they have to negotiate with those tough Republicans. BS!
I’m not convinced that it’s unfixable, but it is a steep uphill battle for sure. As more people discover the unethical lengths our leaders will go to in perpetuating the myth of American moral and military superiority – don’t miss the documentary “The Tillman Story” – the tide will turn.
The question is how they will make that discovery: By the system’s final collapse and mass suffering, or interventional, critical thinking.
Thanks yellowsnap
I think you might have inadvertently omitted some words, joeblue, but if I get your drift, you’re asking why what Grayson did isn’t good enough. And it is, as far as it goes. Let me just remind you of what I wrote:
What I find shocking is your naivete. First of all, we should NEVER attribute good intentions to people who haven’t proven it. Often in life, the constructive attitude is to assume the best about people. NOT NOW, NOT IN POLITICS.
But Grayson, in particular, is someone we should have NOTHING WHATEVER to do with. Do you not understand that his stance on Israel is vicious, monstrous?
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/12/01/max_blumenthal_on_rep_alan_grayson_israel_uber-haw/
You simply can NOT be a progressive AND support Israel’s crimes. This should be as clear to us as anything can be.
My problem with Obama is that he didn’t TRY. If he had fought hard and struggled against the Rs and the other PTB and failed, I could vote for him again. But that’s not the case so I won’t vote for him again. Sad.
“My problem with Obama is that he didn’t TRY”
You are assuming that Obama had good intentions in the first place.
I want to know just what has to happen to the American electorate before they wake up. Sacrificing their first-born sons to Moloch?
Paying an additional 15% sales tax ON EVERYTHING to finance the next war? Real-life death panels for granny and grampa starting NEXT WEEK? Short of something really radical happening, they’ll still be hypnotized by someone waving Old Glory and shouting “USA!USA!”
Our “choices” in 2012 are bleak. We have the lawyer-turned-Tarzan-Osama-killer vs. who? Some batshit-crazy Fascist? Maybe a real fascist winning and then consolidating his power, martial-law style, will DO the trick. Maybe then fat-ass America will get off its collective sofa to fight the power.
One strategy, however, IS really doomed to fail: “the lesser-of-two-evils.” It reduces us all to cowering children, to “useful idiots.”
You know Imka, you’d likely do much better around here if you didn’t try to impress people with inflammatory statements which attribute to diarists’ writings support for things they in fact do not support. The NPA doesn’t support Grayson’s position on Israel, but the fact of it does not diminish the value of his work on issues which negatively impact the middle class and poor in this country – which, as the diary makes clear, was the topic last night.
Get over yourself.
Indeed, and more disturbing still is that, based on his record, his on-the-stump support for Progressive reforms were clearly a means to an end: The White House. Nothing more.
I am completely and totally on this bandwagon – no more lesser of evils. Vote 3rd party until we have a candidate who deserves our vote.
Alan G also made it clear that Obama and the WH staff had no interest in Wall St reform and he was at a loss for what anyone could do to get Obama to take action. Interesting to note David Axlerod’s name came up as a someone who is more interested in getting Obama reelected than what is good for the country..I do hope Grayson will run again or at least stay active in “the fight.”
Anthony,,,we in for a long fight on many fronts
“Maybe a real fascist winning and then consolidating his power, martial-law style, will DO the trick.”
Maybe, but the lesson of Obama is that on the heels of a repressive regime (Bush 2), voters will believe anything they hear from someone the other party holds out as a “change agent.” (Remember, Bush suspended habeus corpus – about as close to martial law as we’ve come, so far, anyway.)
When I voted for Nader and 2000 and a friend of mine aped the (so-called) liberals who accused me of being responsible for Gore’s defeat, my response was just what you say, above: “Works for me, the quicker things go to shit, the quicker we can dig ourselves out of it.”
So in 2008, like so many others, I fell for Obama’s oratory and charm, and thought, “Here is the light at the end of our long, dark tunnel.”
Clearly, no. It’s 2011 and habeus corpus remains suspended (in practice, despite the pretty legal words Obama strung together after his inauguration), along with so many other repressive elements of the Bush years remaining in place, and the exponential escalation of corporate rule throughout our society.
So what have we learned?
I’ll tell you what I HOPE we’ve learned: That image is unimportant.
Issues and only issues are what counts, and without a system of holding our candidates – and public servants, if indeed they attain that mantle – accountable to issues WITHOUT COMPROMISE, as the wingnut right does, can we have any hope of realizing the Progressive reforms which the vast majority of Americans actually support.
With the Unified Progressive Platform the NPA is now crafting, and to which we will publicly pledge any candidate seeking our endorsement to uphold, we are taking an important step in this direction.
Thank you for this update Anthony. Until progressives gain control of the Democratic Party–nothing will change at least in terms of the outcomes of the behavior of the leadership of the Democratic Party and Washington control.
I take heart that change is forthcoming based on on two observations from 2010:
1) Labor stood up to the Democratic leadership and said hell no to Blue Dog Blanche Lincoln and ran a candidate against her in the primary. Then they didn’t support her after she won the primary. That is a huge message to the leadership of the Democratic party that times are changing. This should have been a lesson to the Democratic leadership that they cannot win without labor. They simply cannot and Democrats have a history to prove that point. Clinton proved it with his NAFTA and Obama proved it by not standing strong on a public option for health care. Both presidents lost big time in their first mid-term elections.
[But you know what? They DON’T CARE. The leadership of neither party wants a huge majority. Then they can be held accountable for votes with no compromise. As long as the distribution is close, they can continue to go to their constituents and blame the other side of the aisle for legislation that did or did not get passed. Thus I’m sure these midterms did not upset either Clinton or Obama as much as they may have pretended.
2) In 2010, the Democrats lost half of all the Blue Dogs in Congress.
Of course the excuses given by the Obama Administration is that these Blue Dogs came from conservative districts with Tea Party factors. But I think it is much more than that. A lot of progressives didn’t bother to vote because they are unrepresented by the Obama administration. Honestly, his behavior and treatment of the progressive base of his party is beyond shameful–it is a disgrace.
This loss of the Blue dogs dilutes the power of the Wall Street Corporate elites as they are aligned. Of course many of these people may attend the convention but they won’t have the same power they had as candidates.
I hope that at the least we have a progressive candidate to contest all 22 of these Blue Dogs in their primaries if they try to make an appearance on the ticket again in 2012. Could we perhaps team up with labor on that now?
Can we make that a goal?
In order to overcome the “lesser of two evils” syndrome we’ve got to start electing more progressives at the local and state level. We’ve got to get out of the mindset that one or two election cycles will bring real change. It won’t. I was saying in 2006 that we could see some positive results by 2016 but now, after the disgraceful boycott of the polls last Nov, I think it will be much longer than that. We can’t rely on traditional information services to educate the public, we’ve got to get out, boots on the ground, with leaflets, rallies, whatever, to get to the people we need to reach. The economy tanking will make our job a little easier but that doesn’t mean we can keep doing the same things.
Never. Give. Up.
The road to heaven!
“or what do we do to change things?”
Stop stewing in your own juice!
Get out and get a complete different perspective!
Hold the next virtual town hall in a different country – perhaps Egypt!
Invite an Egyptian ‘progressive’ – who tells you what it means to be a ‘progressive’ in a country where the majority still prefers to stone woman if they are unfaithful –
Learn that you are not allowed to blame the Egyptian people for it and try to
understand that it might be a ‘cultural problem’ and not a ‘political’ one and thus understand that it is insane to blame the American electorate for being essential ‘American’.
Let the Egyptian progressive tell you that there is no “lesser evil crap” but only ‘better options’ !
Learn the most important lesson – that change takes time – lots of time!
Believe in progress – because history proves that there has been tremendous social progress even in countries where it seemed to be impossible and even since last november – when everybody thought America would be taken over by a bunch of complete idiots!
Stop stewing in your own juice and f… vote for Obama if he is the f… better option.
AND!
Watch Jon Stewart trying to be Italian!
try yourself to be ‘Italian’ and get a f… new perspective!
And herein lies the problem, IMO, with your opening suggestion, Liz, that the Democratic Party can be reformed. It is fully and finally owned at the administrative level by corporatists, specifically to perpetuate the illusion of two opposing forces in American politics. Which is total malarkey.
This is why the NPA seeks to draw the party’s truly Progressive rank-and-file into a coalition which includes the non-voting working middle class and poor, along with Indies, Greens, Socialists, Libertarians, and others who can see through this charade.
Unifying labor is one of our goals, and there is no better spokesman for that than Alan Maki, a member of our Steering Committee. Maki’s name may not be familiar, but his work is responsible for workers at Native American gaming operations getting far better employment packages than they would have without him. Trumka’s sold-out AFL-CIO regularly cuts deals with the casino owners which benefit those owners, and Maki’s Midwest Casino Workers Organizing Council is a fully independent trade org which works to counter that practice by organizing resistance to lame-ass contract proposals which the AFL-CIO “supports.” Maki’s organization is supported only by the dues of its rank and file members and donations. His work and dedication are truly astounding, and he has brought the NPA to the attention of many prominent Progressives throughout the Midwest and Northeast. You can read more about Alan and his work at his blog.
Thanks for your comments, Liz!
See response farther down. (Damned nesting!)
I stopped voting for the lesser of two evils in 2008 and walked away from the Democratic Party when they sold out MI & FL handing the nomination to a Democratic fraud.
Obama doesn’t have “clay feet”, he’s doing precisely what his corporate masters want. He won’t appoint Warren during any recess because Wall St. doesn’t want her.
The White House is only a small part of the problem, after all the president, for all his “power”, is just one person. The major issue is the Democrats in the House and the Senate. Just listen to Harry Reid’s statement about the need to quickly pass the Patriot Act. He sounded like Karl Rove, Donald Rumsfeld and all the fear mongers that we railed about all over the internet during the Bush regime. He shouldn’t be the majority leader.
The Democrats lost the majority in the House because the so-called Democrats couldn’t take stand against what Obama was doing.
Every one the blue dogs should face a primary with a liberal candidate as should any Democrat who against raising the debt ceiling, even if it was a farce.
I intend to do what Richard Trumka is doing, only supporting and voting for candidates that represent liberal values.
I agree, SoDrag it not’s going to happen quickly, if indeed we can make it happen at all. That’s why the NPA is recruiting State Founders.
The point of our 2012 strategy is to kick start the org at the moment 90 percent of Americans are paying attention. Like it or not, few follow all this as closely as those who post here, so only by bringing our message to the broader electorate when they are paying attention – and by doing it with strategic acts of electoral disobedience – might more of them begin to see the truth.
So what state are you in, SoDrag? Volunteer here.
Obama = NOT the better option. There is no good option; we must create it.
Wake up.
I guess I forgot:
understand that in a ‘closed cultural or social system’ opposing forces are not a ‘malarkey’ because they exist in the same ‘closed cultural or social system’ -
and ‘coalitions’ are great and the Democratic party can be reformed like any party on this earth or any new party you want the Democratic party substituted with.
I’m in FL. Founding member of St Pete for Peace, treasurer for Samm Simpson’s congressional run in 04 and 06 and a Wobbly.
and if you – as a so called ‘progressive’ tell me that Obama isn’t ‘the better option’ compared to these Republican clowns I might have to rethink the term ‘progressive’.
and we always have to try to create even better options!
and last not least – If you write: “the political winds – now blowing the world over, from Cairo to Madison – which portend the rise of common people against the oligarchs and plutocrats whose grip on power in this country must be released, if we are to have any hope of leading secure lives, in peace, on a healthy planet”.
- look to Cairo and Madison and always be aware that the ‘rise of the common people’ might hold some surprises – if by ‘common people’ you mean the ‘American electorate’ another poster was so tremendously dissapointed about.
The fatal flaw is that we keep looking for a leader. We (the People) are the answer we are looking for.
What is falling, one should push: lets be helpful in assisting the plutocrats in the destruction of a republic which is rotting from the head down by voting republican as often as possible.
When there is nothing left, that is when real change will begin.
No, this is not snark, but rather outside the box thinking.
You’ve absolutely nailed it. Once we accept the greater-evil/lesser-evil paradigm, we’re dead. But if we fight for what we believe, we can build something that will ultimately transform the frame.
and never ever listen to people like that – especially if they pretend to be a ‘progressive’ – because the scorched earth program is NOT ‘progressive it is reactionary to the utmost degree!
I agree with you and, I am ashamed to admit, I voted for Obama is 2008 – never again. Unfortunately, I think this country is gone. We have a half privatized military and the rest of our public systems are going the same way. Last thought for all those who say the corporations bought our Congress – this is true, but you can’t buy an honest person.
Enough already! This the pathetic cry of defeat masking itself as some sort of clever radicalism. There is this notion, stated explicitly or not, that misery and doom will cause the downtrodden masses to rise up. So we’re seeing the greatest misery in decades these last couple years. So where’s your damn uprising?
If the empire falls down on top of our heads, so be it. But it needs no help from us. Misery doesn’t engender uprising. Misery engenders fear, isolation, cynicism, conservatism. It creates CONDITIONS where people can be organized, but misery doesn’t do the organizing. Organizers do.
But let me throw this in your face and throw it hard. You’re standing in front of a person without a job, without a home, can’t feed their kids. And are you going to look them in the eyes and say, “we have to make things worse for you and people like you because that’s the only way we can get you and people like you to make the goddamn revolution for us who are either too lazy or too clueless to make it ourselves”?
You organize, and you organize now! If disaster strikes, you continue to organize. If instead you act so as to speed up and intensify the disaster, then you become the enemy of every person whose life will be destroyed by it.
You call it “outside the box thinking,” but the only box you end up with is a coffin.
If you organize and fail, then the blood is on the hands of the corporate elite, and your failure is only that. If you cheer on the collapse, then the blood is also on yours.
“The lesser of the two evils is the most evil in the long run. ”
Exactly. My current strategy, FWIW, is to vote for whatever crazy assclown the R’s run, hoping that they defeat Obama. Then, lets see 4 years of them showing it down all of our throats NATIONALLY, like Scott Walker did in WI. I think, hope, enough will then wake up. This or another 4 years of the Oligarchs frontman, Obama, and his soothing, dulcet tones taking us over the cliff.
The danger is someone who does not come across as crazy, like a Romney might make it and just continue the Obama corporatist crap, with some Republican shenanigans, but not enough to wake up the stupid.
I do think the current system is doomed, and not fixable within its current boundaries. So, break it AS FAST AS POSSIBLE and see what can be bough back, before the memory of what people have fought for and “won” over the last century is bred out of the masses.
I hope you will. Today’s “liberals” are NOT Progressives. The Progressives of the classic era, from the late 19th to early 20th century – when this country resisted rather than rushed to war; when unions ensconsced workers’ rights rather than trashing them; and when farmland was seen for what it is, our means of nourishment rather than a place to put subdivisions – would neither recognize nor associate with Barack Obama or the rest of his criminal gang.
Watch Trumka closely, because immediately after he made that announcement he began backpeddling – furiously:
Link to full story.
be gone, neolib troll…
Exactly. That is why I cannot vote for Obama, and will vote agaisnt him for the “batshit-crazy Fascist”. The faster we can break this system, the better chance we have of people remembering what they fought for and won over the last century before it is bred out of collective memory and we are back to Thomas Hobbes Leviathan, where describing no government and things in a Libertarian state of Nature, where “the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.”
You begin by opening up the forums to everyone, FDL member or not. A membership only forum is oxymoronic. Then you consider the way we relate to each other. Since we don’t meet face to face, we take the leap of faith and trust each other sight unseen. If you are concerned I may be an FBI informant who will suggest we take the dynamite I have in my garage and blow up a federal building, you protect yourself by informing authorities. In other words you become responsible for your actions. You do not follow the crowd or the leader.
Then you have an ongoing discussion about how we might use the internet to create a large network-not only FDL members-which can, if large enough, become a viable third party. You need something that attracts people i.e. student evaluations of high school teachers. I’m not sure what. It needs more discussion then a series of comments on this blog that quickly moves into the ether. The idea is to attract people to join the network, not go door to door to run primaries. That is so last century.
You might also think about how large numbers of people can interact on the internet without getting bogged down in text. Then you can consider whether we can reach some sort of consensus on line. Most of us don’t like to make these decisions which is why we embraced the hierarchy of representative democracy. That no longer works. We can also discuss what might replace it.
You need, magavtelanata, to read the strategy. Then you’d understand, as explained in prior comments, that the NPA strategy is not leader-centric. It merely uses the leader-certric paradigm we now have to win supporters who will shift that paradigm to an issues-centric one.
You’re barking up the wrong tree here, ekunin. If you don’t like how FDL manages its forums, let somebody at FDL know about it.
Now the ‘good’ ole times as an example? Man – did I learn nasty stuff in school about America in the late 19th to early 20th century – Thanks god there have been such a tremendous amount of progress that a so called Black man can be President – but please – you wake up!
Well said, Jeff.
and – No I won’t go – You were ‘inspiring’ me – Youe were writing about “Cairo” and the ‘political winds’ and the ‘rise of the common’ people – So I thought you should try to ‘experience’ it. (and there are NO ‘neolib trolls’ in Egypt!)
Voting in the Democratic Primary is fine. After all, it’s *our* money that funds the D Party, and it’s a good idea to use whatever infrastructure exists toward real progressive ends. Otherwise, why have we worked so long and hard fundraising and knocking on doors for the Democratic Party, right?
However, when the D Party establishment begins to block bottom-up efforts from grassroots progressive activists and starts to promote corporate interests instead, we’ve got to let go of supporting the D Party. We have to be willing to risk losing the party we created in order to open the possibility of gaining power. Ideas and their outcomes are what we are what the struggle is about, not party.
Personally, I like ‘nesting’. *G*
Tony, you wrote “It merely uses the leader-certric paradigm we now have to win supporters who will shift that paradigm to an issues-centric one.”
You know me to some degree so let me say that I do wonder about that approach. Personally, I think the NPA would win more supporters by not trying to get people onboard and then ‘shift’ them but by having the ‘shift’ be the means to get people onboard. I’m just saying.
this comment comes from the perspective that it is processes -mea culpa here; I’m a ‘fan’ of Alfred North Whitehead- that determine peoples actions. For example, look at countries where the act of voting is something they never really had before; turnout is WAY higher than here in the ‘bastion of democracy’. And then look at how voter turnout is absolutely pitiful when it’s not a Presidential election.
It’s the electoral processes that need reformation if people who don’t worship mammon are to be the representatives of the people.
I’ll never forget standing in line at the Post Office and hearing the young hispanic woman state to her friend that she won’t bother to vote because ‘it’s just words, they never do what the say they’ll do’.
I feel your pain Jeff but the blood is on the hands of those that caused the bleeding. Whether I or others cheer or yell in protest, the blood will still be there. We didn’t get FDR until the Great Depression and we wont get the next FDR until there are bread lines again. Obama’s reaction to the greatest economic crisis since the Great Depression was to protect and bailout the Bankers, export more American jobs, and mandate we buy corporate Health Care. And Progressives are arguing about Alan Grayson et al. Progressives are so pitiful. The collapse is already upon us, most of us are just too blind, too busy, or too dumb to see it.
Point taken, ubetcha, though with the strategy linked in an earlier comment – and widely publicized both here and at the site – anybody signing on to the NPA effort can see the broader plan. We’ve got nothing to hide, there’s no subterfuge. We openly endorse electoral disobedience and encourage people to use it – because at this point, we’re down to last resorts.
Remember, the only people we want to get onboard through the primary effort, or more accurately just get the attention of through that effort, is a relatively small component of the much larger coalition we’re assembling – and will need – in order to make the NPA a lasting, vibrant voice in American politics. So, there are X number of registered Democrats, of which Y are disillusioned and might bolt the party and Z never will. By primarying Obama we get the Y’s attention, nothing more – but nothing less. What they do about it is entirely up to them.
The sworn non-voter of the sort your last sentence describes will – or might, anyway – only vote when they sense there is a real populist movement afoot at the grassroots. And the grassroots supporters we want are – by definition – neither party affiliated nor concerned by party loyalties. They are the oppressed: The working poor, the ill-treated workers. They will join us independent of the primary effort, be it tomorrow or much later in our 2012 strategy.
Personally I take offense at lumping Warren in with Grayson and Kucinich, both of whom have proven that they will fold when the pressure’s on. Some people argue that Warren has compromised herself by accepting the position she has within the Obama administration. Others argue that she’s making the best of the situation, biding her time, etc. I prefer to believe the latter, and I know this: if she is eventually forced out and does not get the appointment to head CFPB, then she has the best of both worlds: inside knowledge of the machinations going on to neuter the CFPB, and clean skirts to be drafted as a candidate to oppose Obummer.
The great tragedy of all this is that I don’t think either Grayson or Kucinich really understood what they were sacrificing by their cave-in on HCR. If either one had held the line he would be the clear primary challenger around which to coalesce. (Which is precisely why Obama worked so hard to drag Dennis off this perch.)
Of course there are. They are what enabled Mubarak to rule as long as he did, and to bust heads with impunity – much like the neolibs in this country enable Bush policy to continue with “one of theirs” in the WH.
There are none so blind as they who will not see. Remove your blinders, man.
So your point is – what? That our burgeoning return of such conditions today is fine, because we by god have an African-American president?
It seems, pieceofcake, that your political judgment fails to scratch the surface – of skin color or anything else. Look to actions and policy, for that is where the rubber meets the road.
You say, “blood is on the hands of those that caused the bleeding.” But anyone calling on people to vote Republican because it will make things worse dips their hands in that blood, just like those who cheered at the Nuremberg rallies.
Odd, this glorification of FDR. He is the man whose reputation was as the one who “saved capitalism from itself.” You want heroes, love the organizers who fought year after year in the trenches of the industrial union movement, who were beaten and blacklisted and killed, year after year BEFORE the Great Depression. Whose efforts bore fruit in the 1930′s in the great organizing drives in steel and mining and auto and rubber. Who were considered by the international capitalist elite to constitute a serious threat of revolution. Who Roosevelt responded to with the New Deal.
The tradition of those organizers is the tradition I follow, not the parlor pinks who stood on the sidelines and scorned them for their dirty bodies and uncouth manner and imprecise formulations. I do not await the coming of the next FDR.
“electoral disobedience”? I like that.
“And the grassroots support we want are – by definition – is party affiliated or concerned. “; ??????
You take “offense?” Really?
Do you seriously believe that Warren will be CFPB head in any Treasury Department headed by Tim Geithner? Even if she is, the bigger question is the key: Can’t Obama just suspend enforcement for his Wall Street buddies? Of course he can.
As regards Kucinich and Grayson, of course they know what they sacrificed, just as sure as Grayson knew he was talking out of both sides of his mouth on last night’s call. The point of the diary is that all of these public servants, good though their intentions may be, are smart enough to see that their battle to change things from the inside will only have teeth – and success – when it is taken public.
And despite how loudly Progressives are calling for it, none seems willing to take that leap of faith.
Um, yeah… too many keystrokes make Tony a lazy proofreader
Here you go (corrected in the original, too):
And the grassroots supporter we want are – by definition – neither party affiliated nor concerned by party loyalties. They are the oppressed: The working poor, the ill-treated workers.
Your argument would be stronger but for the the fact that your candidate, Obama, is a Republican in all but name. The people we would normally depend on – Labor, Courts, Democratic Party have stabbed Progressives in the back and/or sold their bodies to corporate America. Obama has neutered the Left. There isn’t one national Progressive worth my 2012 vote, my proof is there isn’t a challenger for the Democratic nomination. So I have a choice, waste my vote on a third party nobody or support the lesser of two evils, the real Republican(reference earlier comment). I’ll take the real Republican and then we will get Democratic congress that will fight back in 2 -4 years. Have fun with your organizing, maybe you can get Rev. Al Sharpton’s or Alan Grayson’s help. LOL
My candidate is not Obama. That’s why I started writing the Dump Obama series last Fall.
Your “I’ll take the real Republican” is an attitude, not an argument. If everyone takes your advice, then we’ll never get a Democratic congress ever. AT BEST, your position is elitist. At worst, it actively discourages those who are trying to resist.
As I said before, misery does not per se breed rebellion. Things are already shocking miserable, so where your rebellion? Fortunately, more and more people are at least thinking in organizational terms, rather than individualistic terms.
By the way, do you put your money where your mouth is? Have you given money to the Republican National Committee?
There is an argument that, as far as policy and the laws that we create are concerned, Obama is worse because he can get away with things (as a Democrat) that a Republican president can’t get away with. Such things include privatizing/eliminating critical social safety net programs but also other things like pushing corporate backed charter schools. Look at how Bush tried to privatize social security in 2005 for a recent example. Obama is already doing better at hacking away at social security because many veal pen groups aren’t going to attack Obama’s Simpson-Bowles commission as strongly (if at all) as they would if a Republican were doing the same thing. In short, it’s easier to hear Barack Obama tell you you can’t have your government pension then it is to hear the same thing from George Bush.
But even if you favor the argument that Obama is the better option I still think running a primary against him and subsequent independent candidate in the general election is still a good idea. Now the argument that he is better isn’t altogether ridiculous although I personally think the difference between the parties is barely noticeable. However if you want a more progressive country run by a more progressive White House why do you think continuously voting for the same sell-out corporate party would bring us there? At some point don’t we, as the progressive electorate, have to do something to change the clear pattern of being sold-out?
What do we have to lose? Well, like I said, the differences are hard to recognize. More liberal appointees to the Supreme Court is probably the biggest benefit. Democrats also tend to at least use kinder rhetoric towards minorities and other oppressed groups like the LGBT community and women which is good. However, especially when it comes to minorities, policies are rarely created to truly help these communities like jobs programs.
What do we have to gain? A whole hell of a lot more. Ending wars, medicare for all, arresting Wall Street criminals who were responsible for all the financial crimes that led to this recession, funding public institutions like colleges and hospitals, more liberal Supreme Court appointees than Elena Kagan. The list goes on and on…
To answer your question, yes, I would be surprised if Warren headed the CFPB under Little Timmy Turbotax. And yes, I fully expect Obama to interfere with anything that negatively impacts his buddies on Wall St.
That said, I’m not (yet) willing to concede that Warren has somehow compromised herself in taking the position that she now occupies. Wendell Potter has been able to expose many of the deviant practices of the health insurance industry because he was once a high level PR exec privvy to insider info.
It may well turn out to be that if Warren doesn’t get the CFPB post that she’ll be able to leave with insider info — ammunition — to use in exposing the efforts to sabotage the agency. This would also put her in position to say, “Hey, I tried working within the system and it can’t be fixed from inside, therefore I’m willing to pursue other avenues such as…”.
Please note: I’m about as cynical and furious about the sellouts of the entire Dem party and affiliated infrastructure as anyone, but Warren is the one person I’m not ready to write off. At least, not yet.
I agree with your view on Kucinich and Grayson. The fact that Warren would allow herself to get wrapped up in Obama’s administration makes me question her motives.
I hate to argue with someone who wrote a Dump Obama series but I don’t think things are miserable enough yet. Maybe after Obama and Republicans cut Medicare and force future seniors to pay $10K – $15K per year for health insurance or real unemployment hits 30%. We have 10 – 20 years and many more needless wars before the misery index causes regime change.
Misery breeds rebellion, history is proof, the bigger question is will the misery produce a FDR or a Hitler.
I guess if somebody starts to compare somebody who lives under a real dictatorship with ‘neolibs who enabled Bush policy to continue with one of theirs in the WH we have reached the end of the line.
And then the suggestion to take of ‘blinders’ is priceless…
Thank the gods that Dennis Kucinch didn’t sacrifice himself on the Cross of HCR, because it wouldn’t have changed anything, the cost would have been that he wouldn’t be there now fighting the good fight even after his demoralization. It doesn’t appear he wants to be ̶J̶e̶s̶u̶s̶ ̶N̶a̶d̶e̶r̶ President; he said as much and he probably couldn’t win anyway. He’s right where we need him to be.
I don’t hold Grayson in such high esteem.
Sorry, I was referring to what wirerat1 said about politicians running for reelection. That person whoever they are should just kick out the jams and do what’s right and not worry about getting reelected. again sorry for any confusion.
I hear ya, Beach, and am holding out for Warren to stand up too. Though I’ve not written her off, she’s had our proposal for four weeks now and not even an acknowledgment – but it could still happen, and it takes only one brave soul who is willing to step forward. Thanks for your comments!
Just think about what would happen if Timmy Geitner got to put in a Goldman protege. Maximalist thinking is a danger in itself. Just like Kucinch, I think they are doing everything they can to make a difference where they are.
Yeah, and how about his revelation that the two-year tax holiday for most corporations was the brainchild of this WH, NOT a GOP proposal?
Just… breathtaking.
“Misery breeds rebellion, history is proof, the bigger question is will the misery produce a FDR or a Hitler.”
This expresses the viewpoint of someone outside the process, outside the misery, whether that applies to you personally. Rebels produce rebellion. History is proof? Let me address that on two fronts:
(1) Misery in the absence of collective action paralyzes. Consider the millions and billions of people on this planet who have lived decade after decade in the most abject poverty, starvation, disease and death, and have not rebelled. And over these years there have been SOME rebellions, during times of misery. But to pinpoint the misery as the CAUSE would require a history where there was a much closer correlation between misery and rebellion, i.e., rebellion always occurring during times of misery. This misery breeds rebellion analysis is more like stating that a stopped clock will be right twice a day.
Rebellions occur because rebels organize them. Look at recent events in Egypt and Tunisia. The cry in the media was, “who could have foreseen this?” Not the higher-ups in the State Department, not Mubarak and his cronies, not the Israeli government, and no, not our mass media. But in hindsight, there were quite direct issues, and people organizing, Muslim Brotherhood, etc. Attributing it to misery is simply lazy analysis, tells us nothing.
(2) Rebellion is highly over-rated. Rebellions come and go. Revolutions are a very different matter, and revolutions are most certainly NOT the simple product of misery. This is why Russia’s endless peasant came and went with horrifying brutality and lack of lasting effect.
Revolution is not simply a fight against the injustices of the social order, but rather an overturning of the social order. Then there are national liberation struggles, which combine local oppression with nationalist struggle, with the local bourgeois fighting for the right to oppress their own people, against the imperialists doing the oppressing. But needing the support of their oppressed masses to fight the imperialist bourgeoisie. Again, the misery index tells us nothing.
You do have a serious insight, though, that one response to misery could be fascism. (Organized, of course.) But if your perspective is to just bring it all down, and actively support the right-wing forces who are doing so, then wouldn’t that increase the odds of the fascists winning? Do you really think you can act like a right-winger until things are miserable enough, then change direction?
Doesn’t work like that.
“Russia’s endless peasant” rebellions, that is.
Beautifully said, GA_spoken. I keep thinking about the NDPs success in Canada a few weeks ago, and one of their catch phrases: “We must vote only for people who are committed to giving us the country we want.”
The oligarchs in this country learned that a long time ago. The so-called “liberals” refuse, and don’t even recognize that things are getting worse. I even had a very bright, lifelong friend of mine admit to me the other day, “Yup, I’m a shameless Obama fan.”
Until our politics ceases to be about being “fans” of anybody and begins to be about fighting hard on issues which improve the quality of live for all Americans, we’ll never get out of this sinking boat.
I just vote for the better option.
And is Trumka still on the President’s Jobs Commission? I say he shouldn’t have taken the gig, though others disagree with me. ;o)
I rec the comment, kisses, and agree.
and perhaps it’s all my fault – because as somebody who holds more than one passport you learn to look at your choices in a very straightforward and simplistic way – There is country A or B – or A, B or C and very seldom a D or an E. And between countries it sometimes its hard to weigh all the pro and cons – but with American politics it is a piece of cake – the better option is always so obvious that it takes a complete idiot not to see it!
“But in hindsight, there were quite direct issues, and people organizing, Muslim Brotherhood, etc.”
Incorrect, the Muslim Brotherhood’s “organizing” didn’t cause the Egyptian uprising, it was the 30 yrs of corruption and economic collapse. Tunisia sparked by a beating in a market, Syria – oppression and corruption, etc. Comparing world misery to America is beneath your intelligence, misery is relative to every country, society, etc. American misery can be the lack of electricity and McDonalds.
I agree about Rebellions versus Revolutions (political or actual). The Reagan Voodoo Revolution hasn’t been countered. Democrats still believe cutting taxes create jobs – Obama. Until the Republicans masses reject the Republican anti-social programs agenda, and Progressives stand up to Republicans (including faux Democrats), we will continue the slow slide into HELL.
We are arguing over the slow road or the fast road to Hell but it’s the Road to Hell. Please organize, continue your “Dump Obama” series, I’ll enjoy reading it but in the long run, you are wasting your time. Look at the past 30 yrs, I can argue Clinton and Obama are as responsible as Bush II and Reagan. So keep up the good work, when the misery index peeks, maybe Progressives will use your organization to effect regime change, and you can say I told you so. I’ll oppose all the Right Wingers including Obama, and vote for the lesser of two evils, the real Republican.
I’ve had this debate many times before, it ends with you supporting Obama or a 3rd Party. Then Obama or the faux Democrat wins, and we start all over again. Sorry but I’m getting off the carnival ride now.
You haven’t had this argument with me.
Your understanding of causality is very primitive. You actually end up negating actual leadership, both in the Middle East and the U.S. So one could argue endlessly about the causes of every revolution there ever was, because causality is a very tricky business, easily used arbitrarily. I measure a theory, at least in part, based on its usefulness. I don’t consider negating leadership to be useful.
I get your point. It proves mine. If misery is not an absolute, then one must look to other factors. You would just rule out human agency as one of them, replacing it with a faceless “objective conditions.” Objective conditions never made a revolution or a rebellion, or caused littering or jaywalking.
I appreciate that you are burned out. My works, such as:
http://my.firedoglake.com/jeffroby/2011/05/01/how-to-destroy-the-democratic-party/
http://my.firedoglake.com/jeffroby/2011/05/14/so-you-say-you-want-a-revolution/
http://my.firedoglake.com/jeffroby/2011/05/29/do-you-want-to-help-organize-a-jailbreak/
are attempts to break out of the cycle you rightly decry Admittedly not easy, and certainly exchanging slogans doesn’t cut it. Hope I’m doing better than that.
Exactly!
Trumka is bluffing. He knows it. They know it. Everybody knows it.
He knows he has nowhere to turn. If he were serious about this, he would just takeover the Green party. But there’s no way that’ll ever happen.
He’s stuck with the Dems, and he knows it.
No apology needed! I agree – if more of our politicians thought that way, we’d be in much better shape.
Your arguments makes you the perfect Obama Democrat. You can’t vote Republican, so you are either out of the game(Independent voter) or trapped(Democratic voter). Until Progressives like you release your fear of the evil Republican and realize Obama is the evil moderate Republican, your Progressive cause is dead. Obama can compromise anything, and flip-flop on any issue. As the Republicans go farther Bat-shit Right Wing, the Obama-crats move right to attract the center. The result is a Republican victory during a Democratic Administration – HCR, GWB tax cuts, Wars, GITMO, Patriot Act, etc. And you are still trapped in your own fears while Democrats negotiate away your job, health care, and retirement.
Until we Progressives scare Democrats into becoming Progressives, we deserve their contempt. OK, all the BS aside, Nov 2012 who do you vote for? Obama, Republican, or 3rd Party? You don’t have to answer, I already know.
The point that I was making with my musing was precisely what you have stated here: forget about who is gonna be president, or speaker, or chief justice, or this or that. That is not our government. It never really was, but at least the owners gave it some window dressing to placate the owned (you and me, buddy). Organizing outside the system has always been how progress has been made, without leaders, without a head honcho. Who was the leader of SNVCC? Sure, there were prominent activists, but there was no leader. B. Durruti was a prominent and aggressive anarchist, but he wasn’t the ‘leader’ of the Anarchist movement in Spain.
Think Tahrir Square. How did it happen? How does it happen that a Tunisian fruit-seller self-imolates and sets off pan-national popular uprisings? Organization outside of establishment structures, coupled with tactics and strategies that hasten the demise of a corrupt establishment. This is how the unions did it in Spain (the same unions who helped organize M-15). This is how HAMAS does it in Gaza. This is how FARC does it in Colombia.
And how did these organize develop a popular following? By offering something that the establishment failed to: chiefly education and medicine.
Look at why Tahrir happened, how it happened, and how people joined: the message was “we are fed the fuck up and we are not going to take no for an answer”.
In a country where many people live off of 2 dollars a day.
Its bad here in some places. But this is still the wealthiest, most powerful country in the world. Despite what the establishment wants us to believe so that we will settle for less and less. And we will, because we have teevee, and radio, and WWF and NASCAR and the NFL. And because we are fragmented and isolated.
And what have they achieved in Egypt. Time will tell, but they have opened up the border with Gaza, which is HUGE. I mean HUGE. It’s like a 9.0 earthquake to geo-strategy.
Forget the establishment – that is what I am trying to encourage people to do. Neither party works for us, and both parties have been complicit in the greatest redistribution of wealth (from the creators of labor to the purchasers of labor) in human history.
The great thing about the 60s is that the hippies hated Johnson as much as they later hated Nixon. He was a square, a straight. The Man. That is how people need to think, before they can organize.
I’m truly sorry that my post caused a knee-jerk reaction from you. That is not my intent. I am a genuine leftist and I appreciate what you do. I just don’t believe that working with the establishment will get us anywhere. They will simply co-opt us – that is what they do: assimilation.
Thank you for your passion and commitment to the cause. Stay strong, brother.
I’ve read the post and all the comments. Some observations:
1- I am somewhat irritated with this post and the subsequent comments. I was on that call, and in no way would I characterize Grayson’s comments as approval of the current administration. In fact, what I heard was Grayson lamenting some lost opportunities by THE ADMINISTRATION. He was somewhat insulted, although he delivered it humorously, that as the sole serving rep in the 111th Congress with a professional economics background, that no admin officials ever, EVER, talked to him about economics.
2- In further factual support, when Cheryl B re-iterated the question “What do we do now?” Grayson first responded, “I don’t know.” And there was a chunk of dead air. He then went on to ruminate about the system, process and safe seats. And THAT is where Anthony Noel picks up for this post.
3- Anthony, and commenters, I don’t think you’ve done your homework about the political map of the 435 districts. Grayson never “folded” on the PO or anything. He won a R+2 district in a R+2 State. Do you understand what that means? He was always out on a limb, at all times, politically. Here’s the Cook PVI (Partisan Voting Index) for 2010 Study it and learn the geopolitic reality.
4- Brings me to this; I already signed ubetchaiam’s petition/pledge to not vote for Obama again. But I challenge your NPA strategy Anthony; not your passion or ideas or anything. I sincerely believe you haven’t done the work to understand the 435 district make-up, without which there is only a philosophical understanding of NPA, not a hard-nosed objective.
For instance, does the NPA primary Grijalva, or not?
I am in the midst of this homework, and I will publish, tonight on MyFDL, a table of the States, and the count of districts in each State with a PVI of less than +10, i.e. unsafe seats of both parties.
From there, maybe you will show what NPA plans to do about specific seats. And I’m still waiting for NPA’s top 5 issues; nobody disagrees with 6-10.
1) I don’t see a 3rd party getting anywhere in the near future without serious campaign finance reform, the rolling back of corporate personhood, or a serious power vacuum. The system is corrupt, as in necrotic.
2) The premise that the Democratic Party’s roots are progressive is inherently flawed. One could make a similar claim regarding the Republican Party’s legacy, indicating such figures as Teddy Roosevelt and Abraham Lincoln. The two business parties are beyond redemption: they represent the ownership class, and without any of things mentioned in 1) occurring, they will remain so.
See I dig where you are coming from because I’ve been there myself – and I don’t mean to say that in a paternalistic way. I guess I’m still kinda there, otherwise I wouldn’t be here. It is a matter of… satori? I just realized one day that the DFHs will always be right: Turn it off. Drop out. The only interactions we should be having with the establishment (including the electoral process) is flipping them the bird.
The wingtips got it locked up. The way I see it, at this point we are either radicals working outside of the system, or we are part of the problem.
What makes me question her motives is her Harvard credentials. Harvard is where the CIA hides foreign war criminals, for crying out loud.
“I was on that call, and in no way would I characterize Grayson’s comments as approval of the current administration.”
He may have been critical of the administration (how could one not be) but the point is he stilled stated unequivocally his belief that Obama should be supported in 2012. How were his statements mischaracterized?
He did NOT unequivocally state Obama should be re-elected. What he said was:
We have to get a Progressive in the WH
and
We have to insure Progressives are in all the Safe Seats, make sure we compete in competitive districts
and
There is evidence of what a RIght Wing President will do vis-a-vis the 2001 Election.
There was zero endorsement of Obama. Zero. Just against the Right.
Why do we lead our children down the primrose path of believing in fictional things like the Easter Bunny and/or the Tooth Fairy? Or a government for and by the people?
The fact of the matter, all of this is nonsense. As much as I’d love to get all worked up about a challenger for Obama, as long as money rules the government, the plight of the people stand little or no chance.
Barring a Ross Perot type character entering from stage left, how exactly do you propose a candidate stand up to the hundreds of millions that will be spent during the course of the 2012 campaign?
All politicians sell their souls to their backers during the campaign. Promises are made and eventually kept because they need even more money for re-election.
The fact that Obama meets with his millionaire friends for money this time around, he has no time for us and our needs. The unemployed and working class families don’t have any money to give him, so he doesn’t care about us. He cares what millionaires think, not us. He cares about foreign policy when it may make him look bad, but he’s not in it for a fight.
Obama has been a horrible disappointment, but it isn’t just him, but all politicians. Until politicians have the guts to pass election reform and make it publicly funded, all of this is nonsense. They all want to retire and become lobbyists. They all want jobs on boards where they do nothing except collect money.
The past 30 years of Reagan and what he brought has destroyed our judicial system, so now our Supreme Court is worthless as a check against corporate interests.
Personally, I hope a Republican gets elected and hurries the country on its way. I am tired of being fed a line of BS from the Democrats about how horrible the Republicans are and/or what they’d do for us, but because of “X” they can’t. Sorry.
I look at 2006 to 2008 when the Democrats had Congress and they did nothing to stop Bush. It is all lies and frankly, regardless who is in the White House or Congress, we lose.
Your framing is utterly simplistic. For a more nuanced tactical approach:
http://my.firedoglake.com/jeffroby/2011/05/29/do-you-want-to-help-organize-a-jailbreak/
As far as him not selling out on the PO, of course he did. He agreed to vote for a bill without one. It doesn’t matter if he came from a district that was R+20. We were counting on representatives to hold their ground on the public option and he was one of the few that didn’t. Of course that decision would have had political consequences but that doesn’t make it any less of a cave. If you do something you say there’s no way you’re going to do then you have caved.
Produce the proof of that. He was never asked, and never signed a PO pledge.
That was Grijalva, Kucinich, etc. Those Reps are rightfully accused of “folding” as they A) Did sign the Pledge and B) Reneged.
Produce Grayson’s signature on the PO pledge; no one in less then a D+10 district was asked to sign it.
Aside from that, are you a 1 issue voter, issue being health care? If you are, your position makes sense.
While you’re right that Alan Grayson may have never signed an official pledge to only support the public option he was heavily involved in the fate of the public option. In Fall of 2009 (before the screws were turned to him) he was leading the charge for the public option as this article shows: http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/10/progressive-groups-prepare-ads-against-reid.php
He introduced a good bill, the Public Option Act, after it became clear there wasn’t going to be a public option in the bill coming out of the Senate-House reconciliation. This was good on the surface but as this article points out it may have done more to pressure Kucinich to vote for the crappy reconciled bill than anything else. http://crooksandliars.com/karoli/alan-grayson-introduces-public-option-act
I’m not a 1 issue voter at all. I think Grayson was a great member of Congress compared to the rest. But the rest suck so that’s not saying that much. In my mind, what would’ve set someone far apart from the other MoC’s is if that person risked sacrificing their entire career for the public option even if the Air Force 1 ride is a little uncomfortable. None did that, including Alan Grayson but that’s what we needed. The health care debate was perhaps the biggest of Obama’s first term but it was just one debate, one issue. However, this same scenario plays it’s self out all the time in many different debates that come up so that’s why it’s still important.
@GA_spoken June 2nd, 2011 at 8:15 pm
In case you hadn’t noticed, Grayson voted as he did, and lost in 2010, with the money crowd chasing him out on a 4:1 basis, a relatively close margin in a R+2 district.
He lost.
Kucinich is still in, for now. Ditto Grijalva.
Grayson’s put his money where his mouth is, on more than one issue, and paid, with a loss. Why people bash him still eludes me.
Are you saying Warren is a foreign war criminal?
So there’s all these things that need to happen before we can do anything. But no clue how they are to happen.
Well, don’t sit on your ass. Send money to the Republicans. Walk precincts for the Republicans. Don’t be a wimp. Join your local Tea Party. Much easier than trying to build anything progressive.
Then try to look an unemployed person in the eye and tell him or her that you’re campaigning for the Republicans because you’re so concerned about the plight of the poor.
I know that he voted how he did and lost. My argument is that the braver alternative would have been to vote against the health care bill which would have seriously jeopardized it’s passage. I say it would have been braver because I get the feeling Dems like Grayson are more afraid of pissing off Obama than standing up for progressive principles or even keeping ones own seat in Congress.
Let’s not get caught up on Grayson though. I’ve applauded him in the past and been happy to see a congressperson use the rhetoric he would sometimes to make his point. I do think he did some good things while in Washington. The thing we need to remember is that we need to learn to ask more of our reps and leaders in Congress and everywhere. Alan Grayson, while better than many, isn’t good enough. You may say that sounds a little unreasonable, but I say it’s about time we start asking for more.
We have to demand things we know are right. In that respect I don’t think you and I differ all that much.
I know you are so so complex & smart and my argument is so so simple. Just as Obama is so smart and GWB was so dumb but Obama can’t seem to get out of Wars, close GITMO, or stop himself from extending GWB’s tax cuts. Damn that dumb simple hick from Texas. Why?
Maybe, it’s Obama’s nuanced tactical approach. Yea, we simple guys just can’t understand the brilliant “strategy” behind supporting everything you say you oppose.
I ignored your condescending insults before because I believe people like you can be saved but maybe I was too nuanced and tactical. I’ve had this debate before, and you are no different. You just think you are smarter. In 2012, you will vote for Obama or sit out(3rd Party). Rationalize it any way that helps you sleep but it’s not that complicated, Obama or the Republican will win. I’m sorry, the Republicans will win regardless. Yea, go organize so the next Obama can buy you off like MoveOn, Code Pink, etc.
It’s not so much that it’s simple but that it’s wrong. As I said to wirerat below, don’t sit on your ass. Send the Republicans money. Walk their precincts. Join your local Tea Party.
Then try to look an unemployed person in the eye and tell him or her that you’re campaigning for the Republicans because you’re so concerned about the plight of the poor.
In 2012, I would vote against Obama in the Democratic primaries and 3rd party in November. And build organization on the issues. You seem to find that last part incomprehensible. I do attribute it to burnout.
Sorry Kelly, but you are mistaken.
You infer that I characterized Grayson’s comments as “approval” of the current administration. I never did so; please re-read the diary.
Further – and perhaps you left the call early – right around the bottom of the second hour (would have been 830ish Eastern), Grayson said, “We have to re-elect Obama, and we have to win back control of the House, because if a Republican wins [the White House] in 2012…” and then words to the effect of, the damage will be irreversible. (Please note, these quotes are from memory, so may not be exact.)
Tough you are correct that Cheryl B was the first to ask “what do we do now,” Jane did too, and shortly after Cheryl B. It was just before Grayson’s cell phone ran out of juice, and it was then – perhaps conscious of the dead air after Cheryl asked, as you note – that he responded, “We have to elect one of us” to the White House. I know because Jane and I then yapped a bit back and forth to kill some time while Grayson called back on a land line, prior my getting the next question, in which I asked Grayson about the value of building a Progressive organization.
So, prior to that question he had said we need to put a Progressive in the WH, and earlier in the call (throughout it, really) he had eviscerated the current occupant. But about two or three questioners after me, as the call wound to a close, he said what I reference above about the need to re-elect Obama, or the consequences will be dire.
And I’ll just add that your use of the word “bash” in your exchange with GA_spoken above is another attempt on your part to infer that my diary bashes Grayson. It does nothing of the kind. It encrouages him and other to break with their sold-out party and build something that can make a real difference.
Finally, in response to your concern about the NPA’s focus:
I know – and very honestly, appreciate – your dedication to the numbers. It is highly informative, structurally helpful, and instructive as to the way things are. But there are times when the effort to build a popular response to the way things are is more important than the numbers. People are out of work for record periods; as Grayson’s presentation delineated; few in Washington give a shit; and we’re about to re-up with the guy who has more to deepen our hole than to dig our way out of it. Now is not the time to parse numbers in the vain hope that a seat here or there in 2012 will somehow change Obama’s ideology, which is clearly NOT concerned with ending corporatism, supporting rank-and-file workers, cleaning up the planet, or reversing the Bush Doctrine.
As a growing number of people are seeing, now is the time for popular resistance to the new paradigm; for civil and electoral disobedience; and for re-instituting the Progressive reforms through which we waled softly but carried a big stick, cared for all our people, and protected workers’ rights. Each of these basic tenets of Progressivism has been systematically dismantled in the past 100 years, and it’s time we stood up – proudly – for them again.
“Then try to look an unemployed person in the eye and tell him or her that you’re campaigning for the Republicans because you’re so concerned about the plight of the poor.”
You should try to look an unemployed person in the eye and tell him or her that you’re campaigning for Obama’s Democratic opponent and the 3rd Party candidate in the general election because you’re so concerned about the plight of the poor.”
You are so smart you can’t see that you are wasting your vote. And when Obama is re-elected, we start over again w/ Cuomo Jr. By then, Medicare is gutted, SSI is on the chopping block, the trade deficit is $1 Trillion, and real unemployment is 25%, but at least we re-elected a Democrat.
JR, your argument is based on the assumption that the Democratic party gives a shit about the poor and unemployed. They don’t. They may say they do, but they don’t. To paraphrase the late, great George Carlin: They don’t care about you! It is a big club, and you and I are not in it.
When both political parties have torn this country to shreds and removed all the safety nets (which they will do, so pick your poison), the poor and unemployed will still need help.
Here’s a thought: what if, just what if, instead of spending money, time and energy on trying to get ‘our guys’ into political offices which are inherently corrupt, why not spend that money, time and energy on building parallel support systems: food banks, free clinics, schools, libraries. Real things that help real people.
“Your Medicare got cut by congress and the prez? Come down to the people’s free clinic for a free check up and some free meds.”
“Your local school fired all its teachers and you can’t homeschool because you have to work at Wallmart? Bring your son or daughter to the people’s education center, where both they and you will receive a quality education.”
“Hungry? Come on down to the people’s kitchen and enjoy some free, homestyle cooking.”
This is how revolutionaries have always succeeded. This is how we win hearts and minds: with food, clothing, and shelter. In short: by providing the necessities that the establishment fails to do – because they don’t care about you!
Some of us are doctors, nurses, EMTs. Some of us are teachers and cooks and librarians. Some of us are mathematicians and some of us are carpenter’s wives. The Market needs labor (look at how it drops every time new jobless figures are released); labor does NOT need the Market. What if our labor went to help people instead of the Market?
Dude, I’m in Texas, we are so Republican, there is no point for anyone to campaign here.
Don’t think so. Reform begins with how we relate to each other. Take, for example the “flag this comment as inappropriate” line. What is that? if enough people think a comment is inappropriate, does it get deleted? Rather than leave relevance or propriety to a vote or to moderators, we should create technology that permits each of us, member or visitor, to filter commenters we don’t like. If someone doesn’t like what I say or how I say it, they should be able to tell their machine not to show them my posts. We might even accumulate these decisions so commenters can learn how people take to them. I try to make several points. First there’s lots we can do or try to do. Second. We have to change ourselves before we can change the country.
One more thing. The way these comments are formatted does not contribute to understanding. How a great many people can meaningfully communicate is a problem that requires immediate attention. If we put our heads together we might come up with something. Most people do not spend hours following these threads, but, like myself, come and go. I doubt anyone will see my last two posts. Pretty soon all of it will disappear into the ether never to be referenced again. It will exist on some hard drive someplace, but no one will look at it.
Though invited to the town hall, I couldn’t attend. However, I have often referred to Grayson as the “kabuki monster” (think Sesame Street). And it seems this characterization is extremely accurate.
Forget Grayson and all the rest of them. Get new people who actually mean what they say.
Nonsense. Running to win is different from running to grow a movement so that you can eventually run candidates to win. Even an R + 10 district is going to have thousands of progressive leaning voters, who have relatives and friends in other districts, in other states, who could more easily elect an NPA candidate.
Ideally, NPA would help educate the population as to the corruption of the US government, in general, including both national GOP and Dem parties. If you’re going to have a Repub represent you, like it or not, wouldn’t it be better to have a more honest one, who doesn’t work for corporations?
Honestly educating Republican leaning voters would also help grow NPA. The arguments are similar. Your reddest voters in the reddest of states will nonetheless have friends and family who are progressives, in other districts where a progressive can win an election. At least some of your neighbors are not going to be such fanatics that they wouldn’t pass along political messages about the NPA, if they took the NPA to be sincere.
Clinton also eviscerated welfare which led me to conclude, correctly, that the next Democrat appointed to the White House would be there for the sole purpose of providing cover for the destruction of Social Security.
Unfortunately, I was right.
I don’t see any third party without root-branch change of the electoral system with something like IRV. For people to get enthused about a third party being anything more than a protest movement, there has to be a realistic expectation that the candidates you’re voting for have a concrete chance of actually being elected.
This coming election will mark 100 years since Gene Debs, the Socialist Party candidate, received almost a million votes yet no Socialists went to congress. Today to declare oneself a socialist is to be likened to a mad bomb thrower.
In a more perfect world, we’d eliminate the electoral congress and implement some form of proportional representation so the millions of minority viewpoints can find some expression.
Rather than needlessly spill oceans of virtual ink on Obama and the present state of the Democratic Party and the progressive agenda thereof, I prefer to sum it all up with the observation:
We be fucked!
Just a bit of food for thought about pols, overreach, next cycle, etc.:
Apparently in Wisconsin, polls show that if Russ Feingold were to run today for Governor, he would beat Walker by 10 points.
http://www.democracynow.org/2011/5/27/the_battle_for_wisconsin_court_strikes
I would look them in the eye and proudly say I voted for a candidate who supported a WPA-style jobs program, strengthening the social safety net, and ending the wars whose funding could be used to pay for them.
I don’t have to play games about how if I do this, I’m really doing that, per your interpretation.
“JR, your argument is based on the assumption that the Democratic party gives a shit about the poor and unemployed.”
No, it’s based on the presumption that they don’t. That’s why I’ll be voting for the NPA-endorsed independent in November 2012.
“‘Hungry? Come on down to the people’s kitchen and enjoy some free, homestyle cooking.’
This is how revolutionaries have always succeeded.”
Completely and utter nonsense. Such charity work is laudable, but calling it revolutionary is laughable.
I cannot understand why there is all this sniping against the concept of growing an organization such as the NPA. All you who are calling for election reform will never, ever get anywhere without ORGANIZATION.
I actually do believe that conditions will have to get much worse for there to be any hope that people will wake up, but guess what? Things ARE getting worse. That scenario will likely be realized so it is vitally impotant to have an organization with a proven record of advancing Progressive issues in place to catch all the disaffected and desperate citizens once we reach the boiling point. To do nothing misses an historical opportunity and increases the likelihood that a dictator will grab the reins of power.
Stop making a fairly simple issue complex when it need not be. It’s not an either/or set of conditions. All positive actions have value.
And to those of you who are accusing Anthony and Jeff of essentially being on the side of Obama and the Democrats: Whew! Get a clue, kids.
“For instance, does the NPA primary Grijalva, or not? “; Kelly, I wasn’t on the caall and won’t bother to speak to that but it is my understanding that NPA is only mentioning primarying Obama. Now I concur with Jane that such won’t result in much good occurring BUT it is my understanding that the focus of NP{A is to build an org where those seeking election come to the org for endorsement and that such an endorsement will ignore party affiliation and focus on what that candidate stands for.
I may be misunderstanding but Tony can correct that situation if such exists.
I joined NPA as it seems to me to be an effort that can ‘rise above’ the labels associated with elections and focus on issues that transcend ‘affiliations’. And I think that is where the ‘top 5′ will come from after feedbback/input from those on the ‘steering cmte’.
Look. It’s all about fear. I think some folks are being too black and white. My life is better with Obama president…it’s not what he promised. It’s clear he has big corpo in his back pocket, but the bottom line is that his “pretending” has helped my life. I had a mortgage company that was doing whatever it wanted to my mortgage. At one point I had 13,000.00$ in fees that they would not or could not explain to me. Those fees have disappeared off my statement. What the mortgage companies had been doing was waiting for a chapter 13 like mine to be over, assessing fees while in chapter 13 and then seeking foreclosure the minute you were out of it. I expected this. I paid on time, and my balance was growing. Until around last year. My balance was cut in half. And then, by the time I was done with my bankrupty it was nearly gone. I still have to sue em for some fees but for the most part it all disappeared and no one has me in foreclosure. This is a factual “better” for me. My husband is unemployed…but due to Obama’s health care…I can find some insurance. My husband’s cobra is cheaper than in years past. Not true for everyone but true at our house.
There is a valid fear that putting someone else out there, might cause a loss to the republicans. I have seen a few small gains. I am not stupid or naive…I know what Obama is about. At the same time, I prefer him to the Bush years that seemed as if my mortgage company could do whatever they wanted to me, and no one cared. I am torn about just giving up on Obama completely. I don’t think my family could stand another four years of a republicon. And I hope that the things that have improved under Obama will continue..and maybe even get a little better.
Would I be willing to bet on a sure thing…sure. But I don’t see one right now.
“Completely and utter nonsense. Such charity work is laudable, but calling it revolutionary is laughable.”
Do you care to back up that assertion with proof?
The PSUC, the POUM, The PSOE, The CNT, The UGT, FARC, the American Revolutionary movement, the (pre-Bolshevik)Soviets, the Taliban, HAMAS and FARC were and are far more revolutionary than a bunch of policy wonks sitting in front of keyboards (self included).
That’s surprisingly tight given the circumstances. Wendy, you are battling a brainwashed, compliant populace, happy to vote for and actively support their own annihilation. It may simply be there is nothing to be done. Keep that in mind at least, and be ready to bail if things turn worse.
Then there’s the Salvation Army, the Catholic Church, and so many others. Doing charity does not make THEM revolutionary.
Oh, then there’s the Taliban. You’re keeping good company.
It will be very interesting to see how Netroots Nation is handled this year and how much dissent they will allow. Will Obama make an appearance saying “We need to hold his feet to the fire”? Such kabuki.
Well, think again. I don’t work for FDL. Again, take your gripes to Jane and/or her staff.
But it’s not a more perfect world, Matt. That’s the thing. So we have to build a long-term movement of resistance and education. That’s what the NPA seeks to do, using our broken electoral system as the classroom.
The important difference between your position and others on this thread is that you don’t actively WANT things to get worse, you want to organize in RESPONSE to things getting worse.
Some others would use things getting worse as a substitute for organizing.
In RESPONSE yes, but more importantly in ANTICIPATION of the deterioration. I find that people, sort of like teenagers, act like they aren’t listening to us liberal policy wonks when we start carrying on about things. But some of it sinks in. I’ve seen this happening fairly often lately . The NPA could serve the same function but with a bigger megaphone and a place for people to go when things start getting spookier.
Exactly!