I live in the Cleveland metropolitan area. There are a lot of Russian immigrants here. Most of them I’ve met are from places like St. Petersburg, Moscow, and eastern Ukraine, though I met one thirty-something woman who hails from Omsk, in Siberia, just a couple of hours by car away from the Kazakh border.
Most of them came over in the nineties. When asked why they picked Cleveland, most say there were manufacturing jobs here at the time, that New York was “too crazy” and Chicago full of gangsters. When met with blank stares about the latter from locals, they will shrug and admit that was what they heard about Chicago in the old Soviet Union. Propaganda.
What I find most interesting are their very personal comparisons between life in America now and life in the old Soviet Union then. All of them miss aspects of Communism and, when pressed, will say that on the whole they prefer it to the capitalist system they live under now. As the woman from Omsk said, when she was growing up under Brezhnev her family didn’t have to worry about the basics: food, clothing, shelter, transportation, education, medical care, utilities. Her parents were provided with an apartment, one car, free electricity and gas for heat, enough food to get fat on, education, etc. They had jobs, and what they earned there they could spend pretty much as they wished. They saved up enough to buy another car and a bigger house. If you wanted more than the basics, she said, you had to work for it, but you could work for it and save up to buy it.
I’ve heard much the same from other Russians, along with the horror mothers experienced when they discovered that day care for their kids wasn’t free at all in America, but very expensive. How is a parent supposed to work when most of their pay goes to day care, they ask? Why, in the richest country ever seen on the planet, are the basics not covered? Most are disillusioned and would like to go home, but either they can’t afford it now or they looked into it and found, as one of them told me, that Russia now is “capitalism gone wild,” and unaffordable compared to northeastern Ohio. So they stay, and struggle just like the rest of us here.
My wife asked the woman from Omsk if they still had gulags and political repression when she was growing up. She rolled her eyes, laughed, and said the gulags went out with Stalin and that the Communists in the ’80′s really “weren’t that bad” and “pretty much” left people alone. She smiled and said, “See, you Americans are exposed to propaganda too.” I asked her what she preferred, life in the Soviet Union in the waning years of Communism or life in Ohio now. She thought for a moment, and said “Siberia then.” Then she said maybe we Americans should take the best of Communism and apply it here alongside the best American traditions of reward for hard work and Constitutional freedoms. Then she laughed again and said, “But your own people on top don’t want to give up anything, either. If you try, they’ll fight you. That’s always been true. Everywhere.”
I don’t believe any of these Russians are lying. I offer their observations and experiences as food for thought. Feedback is welcome.
Cross-posted at http://www.leftunderground.com/threads/1981-Reflections-on-Communism-from-Russian-Immigrants?p=11455#post11455



34 Comments

Apparently their propaganda was not what we crack it up to be.
Ask them who make the best gangsters.
Great post, Ohio Barbarian – thank you very much. My thought was, maybe we can look forward to the ‘waning years’ of capitalism. We certainly didn’t get much of an idea of what was really going on for people in those years and before, so your post is extremely enlightening.
I became a citizen in the ’90′s, sat next to a girl from Belarusse who had found work at(and was sponsored by) a big electronics firm. I am sure all those jobs have now found their way to China.
Recommended.
I liked this wisdom really well: ““But your own people on top don’t want to give up anything, either. If you try, they’ll fight you. That’s always been true. Everywhere.”
Whoosh. She nailed it. And we have to convince them they must give up some of the ‘anythings’, so that others might live better lives.
Hey OG,
Nice post, never seen you write a “man in the street” interview based article, was expecting your usual history lesson. Not that I don’t appreciate those, but this one jumps off the page at you. I like it.
Rec’d
Superb!
The first measure of any society is whether each and every citizen is guaranteed “the basics”. When a country’s economic system picks winners and losers by its very architecture, as we have in the US, we dehumanize our own citizens by forcing them to live in poverty. The pride so many Americans seem to take in waving their “if you work hard you can succeed” banner is truly disgusting. Poverty is rampant in America. There is no greater symbol of a failed system.
Another measure, though, is the degree to which citizens are empowered. I am no expert on the Soviet Union but did Soviet citizens condone the madness of Cold War military spending? Did they condone the Soviet empire in Eastern Europe? Did they condone the Soviet adventures in Afghanistan?
Just like in the US, militarism and the pursuit of empire bankrupted the country until it finally collapsed.
Sadly, ultimately, both the US and the Soviet Union, under both Communism and capitalism, failed to truly empower their citizens. In the end, servicing the wants of tiny but greedy minorities were their achilles heels.
No reply to reply buttons today for some strange reason. I know what the official US Navy electronics diagnosis would be: PFM(Pure Freakin’ Magic). Oh well.
RAD: The “man on the street” interview style was actually my wife’s idea. After running into dozens of Russians, mainly in high rise apartment complexes that were luxurious to us, coming from Texas and Colorado, but familiar to the Russians, and a few working in various local businesses and hearing the same thing over and over again, she encouraged me to post something on FDL, so I did. Glad you liked it.
Welsh, I only talked to one Russian about the Soviet empire in Eastern Europe and the Afghan fiasco. He said he believed the propaganda that Eastern Europeans were happy under Russian protection and that he and other Russians were surprised when those countries chose to break away. He also said that he and his parents never really thought about it all that much. I guess that’s not much of a surprise; how many Americans think about how Latin Americans feel about living under American-dominated governments or how Iranians felt about living under the American-backed Shah? As for Afghanistan, they think it was a fool’s errand, a stupid thing to do, and wonder why the American government is stupid enough to do the same damned thing all the while knowing what happened to the Soviets. They think we’re arrogant and the Afghans are crazy. I think they’re right.
Wendy, yeah, the lady from Omsk did nail that one, didn’t she?
Thanks all for the replies.
“No reply to reply buttons today for some strange reason.”
This appears to be a “feature” of the new, “improved” myFDL.
Some seem to believe that un-nesting responses is a good thing. It isn’t. It makes it much more difficult to follow the intra-thread conversation.
I knew this lady professor who came over from Russia – ex Soviet Union – who was in the Math Dept. of the Univ. I worked at.
She need to have some text formatting software installed on the Unix work station. Particular to the Sciences.
She just could no believe how backward US Univ. were in this matter since in the Soviet Union they had what ever they needed.
And I can tell you this after being involved with electronics technology for 50 years that American business will not innovate and advance one iota unless they are forced to.
All the innovation and advancement that occurred during WWII and the Cold War was because the military demanded it.
Left to their own devices, corporate America would have advance little if any.
@welshTerrier2 March 3rd, 2012 at 11:07 am
They say there will be reply buttons ‘just like on the front page’. Meh! To me, that’s not encouraging actual conversation, but then…I’m gettin’ an ass-kickin’ over that at the watercooler. Ya have to sit on a thread for hours, and refresh…to no what the hell is goin’ on, imo. Especially if it’s your OWN post.
I like learning and discussion, not just bleeping short comments. Must people people blog for different reasons, and comment for…different reasons.
Agreed, but it seems to be back (at least for the moment).
Opps: that’ll teach me to make assumptions. The button is back but it doesn’t nest replies, just attributes them.
Great post, Great story
The lack of comment nesting will turn Firedoglake into The Gossage-Vardebedian papers.
Instead of displaying comments in a logical order, i.e. grouped by conversation, they will be displayed sequentially by time. The physical sequencing of a thread will bear no resemblance to the actual conversations taking place. To follow the flow of any given conversation, readers will be forced to scroll up and down rather than having the native layout do it for them.
I’ve designed and coded my own forum software; I would never do it this way.
Recommended.
We need to use the best aspects of communism and capitalism for the better of our society.
So many people are blinded by progpaganda that it’s difficult to have a constructive conversation about these things.
Whenever I’m asked about my political beliefs I say I am a progressive and lean heavily socialist……. I might as well be saying I am from mars.
Thanks for this very informative post!
As one (of apparently many) who requested a chronological listing of comments I welcome the change. The different conversations can all still be followed- it’s simply a different paradigm.
And with a sequential listing you don’t have to scroll up and down a couple of dozen “nested” threads scattered over a couple of hundred comments a couple of hours after comments are closed to find out that someone posted something that really, really needed a reply… and that you had missed it in all the scrolling.
I did suggest to Jane that it might be a nice solution to have it as a per-user choice. A profile option for each user to select how they see comments and replies.
But as for nested vs. sequential… well, as an example, I just wasn’t going to post an article on, say, a hotly-debated technical topic and then try to scroll up and down through the nested comments fast enough to keep up with the all the replies.
And apparently I was far from alone, although others may have add different and/or additional reasons for desiring the change.
Yeah, I don’t like it either.
I’m not sure what they were thinking.
Let’s not forget that communist China is kicking our tails right now too.
It’s pretty much been accepted that they are the future. That says a lot doesn’t it?
the reply buttons were only temporarily disabled – they’re back now, as you can see.
They’re not actually communist at all any more, though. But they might go back to being more communist at some time in the future.
The nested comments at MyFDL, compared to the rest of the site, were the #1 complaint of longtime commenters and members.
IIRC it was right around 10:1 for people wanting the MyFDL comments to be like the rest of the site. It’s a relief, not to mention an achievement, to deliver what a clear majority of the commentariat wanted.
If someone wants to make a browser add-on script to display comments as they would like to see them they could certainly do so.
Nice sketch of those you spoke with OB . . . highly rccd diary.
Aside from your work, there sure is a lot of whining goin on.
Sad to see this so often as it seems to be increasing.
Oh well.
Perhaps for you folks not happy with life the earth will turn just for you someday before you are worm food.
*rollseyes*
Hoooot! Yes, WelshT. What you reference, to me, amounts to: “yada, yada, hoom, hoom…Match Over, sucker!”
Methinks, in the end, that folks here don’t want to learn from conversations, or engage in sub-topic arguments at all. It’s one-offs, and as kgb says: ego verification…or not.
Me; I’m here to try to shape the conversation, or learn where I’m wrong. Crap; see? I don’t even get to look at your comment while I lamely try to remember it in order to address it; do we always have time to bring up another whole tab for that?
it may simply be that the advocates of the ‘new’ (old and dated) system are not the diarists, but the commenters. Didn’t Patrick Henry utter “Give me dialogue, or give me death!”?
You’re perfectly free to come to that opinion, but actual evidence doesn’t support your position.
Comment threads over 100+ are rare at MyFDL, and are outnumbered by the standard comment platform by well over 100:1 over the years since MyFDL has been around.
Nesting 4 comments deep might be somewhat attractive on a 30 comment thread, but to read, learn, understand and dialogue through 2, 300 comments?
Didn’t happen on the old MyFDL platform. And more to the point, what you are wishing for is more likely to happen on a seemless comment platform.
You’re welcome to your opinion, too, of course, Kelly Canfield. I’m approaching the subject from my needs and likes as a diarist whose many diaries which have reached 100-200 comment in the past…before comment numbers decreased over the past few months.
And yes; it’s my diaries I’m concerned with, and I find the nested mini-conversations useful, even though sometimes I do start at the bottom of the thread to suss out new comments.
Other places I’ve written have solved that problem by having a list of ‘recent comments’ and after a certain number, a ‘More…’ function for easier usage, designating whose post and title are being referenced. Simple, not rocket science.
There is not just ‘evidence’, but the ‘opinion of the evidence’. I’m not newbie at this, Kelly, no matter how many of you tell me that I’m the new kid on the block, thus have no right to a strong opinion.
You have all the right in the world to your opinion, as I previously stated, and I never said anything at all about the validity of opinion based on any kind of seniority – that’s something you have introduced, not me.
The updated comment system here is to meet the needs and wants of the most, not the desires of a few.
You’re free to diary wherever and whenever you like – there’s no constraint being imposed upon you here whatsoever.
I certainly get your drift, Kelly, and will take it under advisement.
enlightening diary, I’ve talked to Russians too who preferred the old way.
They have an interesting view about things..
here’s a forum..
Good job Kelly,
Best writer hands down at this site, no Fucking question, most genuinely compassionate person you can ever hope to see contribute here at the Lake; and you basically tell her to go take a hike. Just what is your fucking major malfunction?
Wherever and whenever? What a little twerp.
Hey OG,
What can I say? Sorry?
Funny you should mention that. This is from a week ago:
So, the World Bank is telling the fastest growing economy in the world that it needs to reform along neoliberal lines … or else what? The neoliberal portion of the world economy is in shambles!
Who the hell do these World Bankers think they are? No wonder Joe Stiglitz didn’t last long there.
Comrade wigwam, neoliberalism is, as David Graeber says, a political project masquerading as an economic one. The CNN article was rather sardonic, on the whole (if you have the right glasses on.)
The rube-manipulation becomes self-parody. Do poor copy writers still entertain a sour amusement? Do they still imagine that readers see their own imprisonment?
And looking further, the author nails the neolib hypocrisy (for those in the know):
Yes, all part of the spectacular comprador-drama: Who knows what I know and how can I profit from that?
The punchline is juicy (if you’ve got the glasses). The Whirled Baunque suggests
Thievery under glass, comrade.
Don’t worry about it. PFM must have struck again, for I can reply to the reply.
Sort of. Personally, I don’t like the chronological ordered comments. It makes discussions harder to follow. In my ever so humble(sarc) opinion.
I also don’t like sycophants. You certainly don’t have to worry about anyone accusing you of that :)
I didn’t know that, but I agree with you.
Wendy, you continue to devolve from your diaries to what appears to be increasing care for your own ‘presence’ here at MyFDL.
Yer whining at not getting enough attention and that’s just plain ugly as hayall, and pathetic.
GO back to yer diaries of substance, and leave the whine out of yer stuff n maybe more folks will read yer stuff.
I’ve seen this pattern for years, a hot diarist gets it going and then, begins to worry about comment count and such and complain, blame the forum, and such. N ultimately, they self implode or get booted . . .
What IS is with folks like that?
Post yer stuff, if folks don’t read it or comment, it’s not of interest, simple enuff. Don’t be blaming the forum for your lack of interest amongst readers.
Geebuz, n to take Kelly to task?
That goes beyond whining, it’s tacky, tasteless, n in poor form, sport.