I realize we’ve covered much of this ground before. But I got into a discussion with a German recently on the greater Euro / Greek question and wanted to bring the carcass back here to show ya’ll and to see what you think. Are we humans making any real progress, or are we playing around the edges?
I stepped on his nationalist toes and apologized, but we came to terms agreeing that his usage of ‘Financial Mafia’ rather than my ‘Financial Panzer divisions’ better described the faction that is dominating European politics and economics. Here is my comment:
The question is when, if ever, does the EU flag get raised over the Parthenon? Greek ports are now on the auction block. Power grid, rails and national forests are next. When will they declare Greece to have been successfully conquered by the modern financial panzer divisions?
This is the financial embargo of a country. The big squeeze of its people to fund profits demanded by other countries. Is this the penalty for founding the concept of Democracy?
Greece is not allowed to surrender, no white flags allowed, they must continue their reparation payments to the conquering financial institutions. We get to watch the modern financial holocaust of the ‘lazy’ Greeks, live, 24/7. ”No breakup of the EU” is all the northern tier winners will say. Should be rated R for reprehensible.
His reply to me:
You have understood that the Greeks have lived well beyond what they produced in the last 12 years? You know that their standard of living (not measured in GDP; you must take into account that a country in the south needs much less energy etc.) is higher than the German one?
There are no financial panzer divisions. The fight is between hard working and productive northern European workers on one hand and greek people and foremost the Finance Mafia on the other hand.
If we stop paying, the Greeks will be able to solve their problems in a few years, but the Mafia will have lost billions of Euros.
And my response:
I understand the historic economics, (fixed data to gain EU entry, and the comfortable living standards, etc.) deemed to have been ‘lazy’, as calculated by the finance mafia; to be GDP related and therefore geographically unfair living standards, that the Greeks have been enjoying the last decade.
Of course Greeks should not avoid equitable taxation, but that argument is worldwide and assumed to be adjustable within a society. Look only at our ‘mini-taxed’ presidential candidate to see that taxation is the locus of modern class struggle and is fundamental in shaping discussion of the quality of human existence.
My contention is that ‘competitiveness’, as measured only in the mathematic GDP sense, is an ultimate enslavement trap built by the 1%. There should exist a base standard of living component that only the people through elected governments can create. The component is the degree of happiness, that has no empirical metric, and remains philosophic individually and collectively through societal norms that the government should express. That higher living standard the Greeks had achieved in many ways, (albeit deviating from the mafia’s rules) and are now loosing, is that they were too content, too happy, living entirely too well and so must now suffer economic misery for having lived so well in comparison to their northern neighbors.
We, as humans should not be compelled to ‘compete’ in a purely mathematic system. One that in effect creates a ‘race to the bottom’ in the mafia’s unending search for profitability that currently only lower wages can provide. The effective starvation of the mind, body and democracy’s soul is the result.
I suggest rather, that German’s should demand of its governing financial sector similar retirement options at 55, and at a dignified pension as one example a humanitarian goal that balances corporate profitability with labor dignity. It would be better if the Germans would demonstrate that they wish to be treated more like the Greeks.
Its a shame we allow the financial mafia to dictate the terms of discussion and comparison. The world should look at the democracy of Greece as having stood up for an example of enhanced social wellbeing, but for only a short time, despite the onslaught of the self-designated modern demigods of finance. Athena would be proud.
My earlier ontological usage of panzer division was merely metaphoric, to shift our thought from the normal meme. No intent to demean. Your Finance Mafia is much better, and shows that you agree with our capitalist constraints, almost straightjacketed now, that we survive despite of.
There were several good issues that he raised. Particularly who is going to loose? He thinks the Germans people will get some sort of pass if Greece is punted out. I’m not so sure. But I think that the financial mafia is covering their asses risks as we speak; thats why this is being drug out so long.
But I was running with a different philosophic thought and wanted to see if my FDL buds could keep me from ticken’ off the Beemer crowd.
Why aren’t we allowed to admire and imitate the luxuries accomplished by various working class? (Isn’t that just keeping up with the Jones’?) I admire European single payer and thought we were on the way, but….. Aren’t these accomplishments but a standard of well being, freedom if you will from ‘the man,’ but evidence of an evolving democracy, and as much to be sought after as the luxuries of the wealthy? Is that too much to ask? I know, its because we would all want to be treated the same, paid as well, ‘naturally’, and so cut into the profit of the 1% that ‘naturally’ they deserve. I believe we must look toward sharing the ‘naturally deservedness’ that the 1% has stolen from the rest; by adopting new human common metrics that can describe our well-being and so that its diminution can be compared to GDP and profits. Otherwise we really can’t discuss the co-option of the human democratic evolution of natural deservedness. The expenses we pay in well-being, to support their productivity, will never compute in the formulas used by the PTB, unless we put them there.
Are the 1% actually any happier that their standard of living is so much greater than the rest? Is it worth it? I don’t think they actually care anymore. Their cup and my mouth runneth over enough. Greek hospitals are closing, medicine has run out, and no let up in sight. Maybe the Greeks flew too close to the sun.
The original discussion: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/9482797/Eurozone-politicians-at-odds-over-break-up



16 Comments

Rec’ed, I wouldn’t call universal health care a luxury, and I doubt people view it as such where it is implemented. Same for other things like free higher education, 6 week vacations and so on.
The GDP argument has one practical foundation. If folks are creating the goods and services to support that standard of living (financial panzer divisions and financial mafia be damned), then that standard of living will not be generally available. This practical commonsense argument then gets leveraged by the financial folks into a moralism. And you see very clearly the battle in Europe between the region of the Protestant work ethic (persistent in secular society) and the rest of Europe. Because the bankers can appeal to that ethic among the workers in that region to support what the bankers want to do.
There is another unstated issue–the areas with large informal economies and those who have successfully suppressed informal economies.
I reckon hermit’s point is the need to question this “practical” foundation, ain’t it?
Hey tongorad, I crashed early last night and missed ya’lls comments. Your dead on in picking up my sarcasm, and thanks for a chance to continue my rant.
I contend that UHC is a universal ideal, (at least to anyone who still has a heart that understands love) to relieve human suffering. Your free higher education, vacations, etc. are additional examples of democratic improvement to human existance. But using UHC is the better focus for strumming the heart strings of what is a human truth that aught to be in existence, not just an ideal.
Rant continued with THD.
Yikers; what’s the new avatar?
I can’t weigh in with answers, but I can give ya a link to a review of Michael Lewis’s recent book Boomerang in which he discusses Greek economic failures/mismanagement at length.
And you might be interested in this piece up at NC, in which Yanis Varoufakis in which he er…nukes the ECB for both ponzi growth and ponzi austerity are creating hideous debacles.
Hey old friend, hope your still staying out of Occupy jailhouses, and your tickers doin good. lol I hope my sleepiness didn’t loose you, as your input is highly valued.
I’m using GDP as a general numeric construct that the PTB point to as the ultimate mathematical justification for their confinement of democratic will. GDP is not God, but is nonetheless worshiped by many as the law giving number. Not to suggest that its validity as a capitalist measuring method is wrong as far as it goes, but that it purposely disregards democratic philosophic truths as immeasurable externalities. I believe that insufficiency is the root of democracy’s restricted progress in its evolution toward improving human conditions. Its that insufficiency I’m bitch’en about.
Where to begin is the beginning. “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal,….” but numeric exceptions may apply. These numeric exceptions, the GDP god, is the enemy of democracy. That god says UHC is an American social ‘luxury’ that our European democratic peer group takes as a “self-evident human truth.”
This premise of a foundational human truth was democratically propagated, expounded and shown to be viable and ordinary throughout Europe. A human truth so strong that bankruptcy by disease is unheard of. This is an example of democracy evolving to include fundamental truths that serve to improve the human condition. That the Europeans democratically willed that this truth does exist, has preeminence of purpose and that the systemic implementation is subservient to it, “Make it happen, damn the profit torpedoes” if you will, is humanity moving forward. The EU bankers fabrication of a profit torpedo from the protestant work ethic is the immoral weapon used against democracy.
To try and not belabor, let me use a crude example, no nuance. We have a jury system that values human life, when taken negligently, at a high value. This person’s value is calculated by estimation of his future earnings, pain and suffering, punitive component, etc., to compensate his family for his death. Often in excess of a million dollars. (TX disgustfully caps human value at $250K) So lets use 1M. If the government’s systemic failure to provide health insurance was considered to be negligent homicide, then our 45K uninsured, unnecessary death expense would be 45 Billion per year. Now we would have a starting number that approximates the cost of systemic neglect with which to juxtapose against the profit margins of our heath care delivery apparatus.
This number is real but is considered an externality (luxury) to the profit equations we are forced to accept, (the filter of the GDP god worshipers) that profit must interpose itself to the detriment of the democratic ideal that we should be evolving toward.
Capitalism’s language is numeric. We democratically must find and use better numbers that can express our human values and ideals within that language and that the weigh of their valuations can not be discounted. Our metaphysics of love and intrinsic value, (that 12 members of a jury can understand and transmute it into a number) is not an unaffordable luxury. This deeper awareness and understanding of intrinsic value must be brought out of our philosophic attic, developed and put into systemic practice in order to stem the devolutionary, dehumanizing tide of numbers (the financial panzer divisions) the Greeks defend against.
I thought this cute little hermit crab gnome was cool. Its fits my personality more than you know.
So what I know about this is anecdotal not substantive – but I have a lot of family in Greece.
There’s some truth on both sides of the political debate.
Some people can manage to retire early in Greece (45 or so) and get comfortable government pensions. In some cases this is official and in some cases is accomplished by bribing bureaucrats to fudge the records. My relatives think Americans are crazy for working so late into their lives.
That same corruptibility of the bureaucracy (and influence of the 1%) allows the wealthy to dodge taxes like crazy. This creates a culture where nearly everybody cheats on their taxes. The attitude is “If the rich are getting away with it, why should I pay?” If you think about it, this is a tea party wet dream. If you want to get out of paying your taxes in Greece, it isn’t too hard to manage.
What the EU bankers are doing is cracking down on the former and pretty much ignoring the latter. The upshot is – surprise, surprise – the poor and middle class bear the burden of austerity while the rich are barely touched. Small wonder people are out in the streets in Athens.
India has manged to set up a better govt by keeping banking under govt control. I refer you to
http://my.firedoglake.com/wendydavis/2012/08/17/smoke-and-the-great-social-awakening/#comment-275573
pshakkottai August 18th,2012 7 am #42
I get that completely.
I was pointing out the point at which the assault on your criticism will come. Crudely, it’s an “if you don’t work, you don’t eat” argument–except that it is not an individually produced store of goods and services; we depend on others working and providing goods and services. It’s collective. Finance aside, if there is not a sufficient supply of goods and services, the society’s standard of living is presumed to suffer. The argument assumes that only the market can incentivize people to produce sufficient quantities to collectively provide an adequate standard of living.
Any alternative to the current system has to credibly deal with that objection in order to be heard. Because, some folks remember all too well the sorts of issues that appeared in the commune movement in the US in the late 1960s and early 1970s. Others will point to the massive failure of state capitalism in the Soviet Union and other nominally “socialist” countries.
There is a lot of practical work that must be done on this point, and it must be done in such a way as to prevent massive corruption by money or force. (The informal economy outside of the purview of the beancounters who calculate the GDP has gotten huge over the past generation.) That $32 triilion sitting in offshore accounts did not all come from the normal business operations of “legitimate” corporations.
What? Not gonna re4ad the links? Arrrggh! (Lewis echoes RF Shunt, the other is harsh on the ECB.)
Gollum crab, mebbe. Ish. ;o)
Thanks for your input that I think is substantive to our thinking on how to at least hold on to what we’ve got for now, stabilize the faults, heal or repair, start paying our fair share of taxes, then continue the process of moving human living standards forward.
Wendy describes a great social awakening that we all hope for. I would suggest that the Greek Golden Age succeeded in implanting Western thought with human concepts of freedom that still exist. Confucius, and Budda were their contemporaries in time. Human morality records all stem from this period. Was there an awakening back then? After 100K years of homo sapiens, we intellectually surged forward then, and began the process of coming to grips with who we are in any event.
Without wanting to make an absurd suggestion, I would gently remind ourselves that the pyramids of the world were still operational during that time. They’re not tombs.
I believe there is a blessedness of teaching humanity, that the Aegean sea and its surrounds still retain. That it may be more than simple irony that democracy is being tested in its incubator of Athens. That the forces of the 1% are arraigned against the conception of shared voice, shared concern, shared purpose, shared responsibility and shared evolutionary values, that the Greek democracy has inspired over these many centuries, are ever so strong and ever so wrong.
I believe that we’re at a pivot point in history. That the Chicago boys of 1% economics, the neoliberal crowd, are using an ‘austerity’ whip to re-enslave us, using Greece as the whipping boy. I would hope that humanity would shake off the economic fear and awaken to realize that we’re all Greek.
Um. Well, I’m just an old Texan. Originally. Seems to me to wonder why the Greek people should give a tinker’s damn about whether the freakin’ Germans should approve of their lifestyle. Why should the Greeks have to give up so much so that German bankers can make a euro?
I see absolutely no reason why they should give up anything. For that matter, neither do the French. Slightly bigger problem for Eurocapitalism, nes’t ce pas?
Thanks for your comment here, pshakkottai, I had missed your earlier comment to Wendy.
Very good synopsis of the Indian political economy differences from ours. It shows a careful balancing between social and capital forces that I attribute to your experience as a British colony. Your country also formed in a period before the economic strengths of todays international financial power houses were developed.
I for one envy your government owned banking, it is probably the only safe way to prevent the oligarchic take over that we struggle against. The stench of our banking system bailout will linger for years; and to think we were in a position to bring in fresh air, freedom from the FED even, but unbeknownst to us at the time, WS had already bought the outcome of our election.
Yes indeed, much work is necessary to get past these shallow & hyperbolic critiques/objections to something as basic as universal health care. Since we’re not talking about subsistence economies, it’s about clawing back the worker-created value from the bosses.
Dang you Tarheel, I wanted to stay philosophic, to talk injustice, the plights of democratic values. You bring me back down to earth, back into those weeds.
Your absolutely correct that Greece has been living in an economic fairy tale; using a harder currency than the drachma ever was, whose value they contributed little to build or sustain. The spendthrift little brother who thinks he’s entitled because his last name is the same as his older, harder working siblings: member of EU.
Of course our financial bubble burst blew the cover off their GDP to sovereign debt imbalance to reveal a fundamentally bankrupt country, spending well more than they were earning. Its nice to borrow against an inflated value, as many of our underwater homeowners enjoyed until 2007.
The lack of an uncorrupted, effective taxation system has exacerbated and accelerated the current comeuppance that the older, wiser siblings are dealing out. Greece is indeed the whipping boy here and deservedly so to some degree.
But I’m trying to point to the degree of a whipping that Greece is taking and how long it must go on. How many tears, how much pain does it take to assuage the belts of the older siblings. Is there no end? No forgiveness? Should the northern brothers be allowed to cut off their feet to prevent Greece from running away with their debt in the future? Must they sell off all the sovereign assets to pay? How much impoverishment is enough and for how long; permanent disfigurement? This austerity whip is creating an invalid to show the Spanish and Italian brothers what to expect when their turn comes.
We’re ‘across the pond’ watching this beating taking place. Is it none of our affair? I think at some point.
The numbers show Greece will never be able to repay. The PTB won’t move enough industry there to enable repayment. So my thrust of this post of showing a numeric system that can confine and destroy a whole country, even the cradle of democracy, whose beating may yet be comparable to the torturous holocaust.
This 1% contrived system is defunct and out of control if humanity must cry and bleed to prove its validity.