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those people hired as "experts" were far from it, enjoying absolutely NO expertise
We find out in the abc expose, those hired at 1000 DOLLARS A DAY for their "expertise" regarding torture and it’s eficisaty had ABSOLUTELY NO experience interrogating anyone.
That’s right, they were there NOT to find answers, they were there to inflict pain.
IF they had ANY experience with interrogation they would have informed the sadists;
"we get far more information, far more valuable information, far more actionable information if we use techniques that are NOT torture"
"when we get ANY information using torture we pay the price of increasing the numbers of our enemies, for every person tortured you turn their entire family, all their friends, all their associates into terrorists against your cause"
BUT noooOOOOoooo!
These ONE THOUSAND DOLLAR A DAY "experts" had NO experience, NONE, nada.
Yet Rumsfeld, Cheney, bush hired them as "experts"
a snippet from my link;
But it turns out neither Mitchell nor Jessen had any experience in conducting actual interrogations before the CIA hired them.
"They went to two individuals who had no interrogation experience," said Col. Kleinman. "They are not interrogators."
well we could have guessed THAT was the case since ANYONE with experience would have asked them;
"do you WANT more war?, do you WANT more insurgents?…do you WANT more unrest?…do you WANT to LOSE valuable information?"
that’s what ANY interrogator with experience WOULD have asked before they demonstrated how to make Chaney’s house of pain
another snippet;
The new documents show the CIA later came to learn that the two psychologists’ waterboarding "expertise" was probably "misrepresented" and thus, there was no reason to believe it was "medically safe" or effective. The waterboarding used on AL Qaeda detainees was far more intense than the brief sessions used on U.S. military personnel in the training classes.
I have said from the start, the PROFESSIONALS in the CIA already knew these "techniques" were not purposed for gathering information, they were purposed for gathering FALSE information, they were purposed for CREATING MORE UNREST.
This is simple stuff;
How can you POSSIBLY "win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi’s" (as was claimed the goal), when you institute programs of torture?
answer;
YOU CAN NOT AND EVERYONE KNEW YOU CAN….NOT!
These sadists instituted these programs WITH THE PURPOSE of undermining any expectation for success
Here’s a quote from an ACTUAL interogator in the cia, from the same link;
"The use of these tactics tends to increase resistance on the part of the detainee to cooperating with us. So they have the exact opposite effect of what you want," said Sen. Carl Levin (D-Mich).
Of course anyone but the most idiotic marionette understands this principle
abc goes on to channel marcy, apparently without giving her credit so I’ll do it;
Abu Zubaydah was water boarded at least 83 times and Khalid Sheikh Mohamed at least 183 times.
Marcy from emptywheel over at www.firedoglake.com found those numbers through her research and they were confirmed, then used throughout the internet, now cbs as well.
one of the people who said we obtained valuable information through those techniques now does a backflip;
As I said in the original interview, my information was second-hand. I never participated in the use of enhanced techniques on Abu Zubaydah or on any other prisoner, nor did I witness the use of such techniques."
easy to go back after your story is exposed isn’t it, and easier still to "take the word of those guilty of the crime"
I forget who wrote the following, I’ll be back to give credit later
democracy dies on torture’s rack
see all later, much work today
15 Comments
I don’t know if we’re still doing the dig thing so I didn’t open her up, did jane resolve the plaguerism issue, them publishing our work for their own stats?
“do you WANT more war?, do you WANT more insurgents?…do you WANT more unrest?…do you WANT to LOSE valuable information?”
..yes, yes, yes, and yes. Getting false intelligence and confessions is what they wanted to do..mission accomplished. Endless war aka PNAC. It is good for the MIC. Gates just said yesterday that the Pentagon needs $50 million now just in case they have to build a new prison for detainees that can’t be let go. Seems to me if there is no evidence to produce in a courtroom, then they should be let go. If all the evidence came from torture, then they should be let go.
No to using digg even though the majority of blogs do.
“Seems to me if there is no evidence to produce in a courtroom, then they should be let go. If all the evidence came from torture, then they should be let go.”
*breathes a long non-sectarian, non-religious* amen
not..going..to..happen..
***************
” The Obama administration is moving toward reviving the military commission system for prosecuting Guantánamo detainees, which was a target of critics during the Bush administration, including Mr. Obama himself.
It is not clear how many detainees are likely to be prosecuted, but officials said Friday that some would be in federal courts.
Officials said the first public moves could come as soon as next week, perhaps in filings to military judges at the United States naval base at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, outlining an administration plan to amend the Bush administration’s system to provide more legal protections for terrorism suspects. “
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05……html?_r=1
You should send this to Debra J. Saunders. She needs a little help:
She obviously did not know anything about his co-author.
********
” Undoubtedly the most obscure contribution that Garner has made to American law is in the field of procedural rules. In 1992, he revised all amendments to the various sets of Federal Rules–Civil, Appellate, Evidence, Bankruptcy, and Criminal–by the United States Judicial Conference. In the early 1990s, he restyled the Federal Rules of Appellate Procedure and the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure, which were adopted by the Judicial Conference, adopted by the United States Supreme Court, and enacted by Congress. The Federal Rules of Civil Procedure were restyled in 1993-1994 and adopted on December 1, 2007. Garner has revised the Texas Rules of Appellate Procedure, the California Rules of Appellate Procedure, the California Judicial Council Rules, the Local Rules of the United States Court of Appeals for the 10th Circuit, and most recently the Rules on Judicial-Conduct and Disability Proceedings (for federal courts).”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryan_A._Garner
“Sometimes we disagreed (the CIA and Homeland Security) with the intelligence assessment. There were times when some people in the administration were really aggressive about raising the threat level, and we said, ‘For that?!’” — Former Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge, May 2005
~February 12, 2002~ Yemeni terrorist set to attack U.S. — today! “I want, to encourage… all Americans everywhere to be on the highest state of alert,” warns Attorney General John Ashcroft. Uncorroborated by U.S. intelligence. The evidence pointed to an attack not in the U.S., but in Yemen. No plot was thwarted, and no attack occurred. Note the timing…the alert occurred during the brutal torture of al-Zubaydah.
May 19-27, 2002~ Dick Cheney announces an Al Qaeda strike “almost a certainty — it could happen tomorrow.” FBI Director Robert Mueller “There will be another terrorist attack.” perhaps on the Brooklyn Bridge and the Statue of Liberty. The FBI claims the information, from an al Qaida operative, was a “hoax”. The FBI office in NY states there was no “hard evidence” of a pending attack.
June 10, 2002~Homeland Security announces an Orange Alert after U.S.-born Al Qaeda agent, Jose Padilla, captured. John Ashcroft brags on live TV of capturing “a known terrorist who was exploring a plan to build and explode a ‘dirty bomb’ in the United States.”In fact , Padilla, had actually been in custody for a month. The “dirty bomb” allegations (probably made by Zubaydah under water boarding were so flimsy that they were dropped from the case in after the Administration was compelled to present the charges in Federal courts rather than in a military tribunal.
September 10, 2002~ Bush announces a nationwide Orange Alert. Cheney flees to a “secure location” as Ashcroft warns that Al Qaeda appears to be targeting “transportation and energy sectors.” In reality no specific threat against any American target was made. It was simply the “anniversary of 9/11″.
February 7, 2003~Orange Alert. CIA Director George Tenet calls the threat “the most specific we have seen” since 9/11; says Al Qaeda may use a “radiological dispersal device, as well as poisons and chemicals.”
Warning people to stock up on plastic sheets and duct tape, was debunked within days; the main “source” failed an FBI polygraph. Threat level remained stuck on orange for two more weeks. Zubaydah was apparently the main source of reporting on Jose Padilla. This suggests that he took a lie-detector test to confirm claims he made under torture…but failed.
March 17, 2003~Orange Alert. FBI warns strikes by Saddam or “allied or sympathetic terrorist organizations, most notably the Al Qaeda network.” Claim debunked by Porter Goss,then chair of House intelligence committee and future CIA director. No intel suggests new attack. Alert came three days before Bush invaded Iraq, opening what he called the “central front of the War on Terror.” Note that this was allegedly the period when KSM was being water boarded. Confirming a false link to Saddam would have been critical at this stage.
May 20, 2003~ For a second Memorial Day in a row, country is placed on Orange Alert following warning that “Al Qaeda has entered an operational period worldwide.” However no no specific threat ever cited; alert issued because of what the Department of Homeland Security calls “the heightened vulnerability associated with the Memorial Day holiday.” No attacks were thwarted nor terrorists apprehended.
July 29, 2003~ Homeland Security warns “more 9/11-like strikes” are in the works: “These attacks could be executed by the end of the summer.” Not one of the alleged attacks nor terrorists ever materialized.
December 21, 2003 Orange Alert for the Christmas holidays. Ridge warns that threat of attack is “perhaps greater now than at any point since 9/11.” Six flights are canceled; several passengers match terror watch list. The supposed “terrorists” included a Welsh insurance salesman, an elderly Chinese woman, a kindergartner and several French nationals.
May 26, 2004 “They are going to attack and hit us hard,” warns a senior intelligence official. Ashcroft relays an Al Qaeda threat that “ninety percent of the arrangements for an attack in the United States were complete.” The threats were made by a discredited group that falsely claimed credit for the Madrid train bombings “not really taken seriously by Western intelligence agencies,” says one expert. The alert was unrelated to KSM interrogations, but note that there was actionable intelligence gleaned about the Spanish attacks to prevent them.
June 14, 2004~ A shopping mall in Columbus, Ohio, is threatened by Al Qaeda bomber. “The American heartland was targeted for death and destruction,” Ashcroft declares. However the alleged “bomber”, a Somali, had been in custody for seven months, subsequent charges against him make no mention of a shopping mall.
July 8, 2004~ Ridge warns that “Al Qaeda is moving forward with its plans to carry out a large-scale attack in the United States in an effort to disrupt our democratic process.” Once again, the plot did not exist: Says a top European spy, “I am aware of no intelligence, nothing that shows there will be an attack before the U.S. presidential election.”
August 1, 2004~ Orange Alert. Ridge, citing “new and unusually specific” threats to the Citigroup building and the New York Stock Exchange. Bush:“We wouldn’t be, you know, contacting authorities at the local level unless something was real.” The “new” intelligence was three years old. “There is nothing right now that we’re hearing that is new,” says a senior law-enforcement official.
October 6, 2005
FBI warns of Al Qaeda subway bombing “on or about October 9th, 2005.” Bush asserts to have foiled ten terror plots since 9/11.
Other Orange level terror alerts well after the torture interrogations and probably unassociated with them.. June 23, 2006~ Miami-based terrorists plotting to topple the Sears Tower. “These homegrown terrorists may prove to be as dangerous as groups like Al Qaida,” says Alberto Gonzales. Suspects armed to the teeth — with paintball guns — attempted to secure Al Qaeda funds at local 7-11.
July 7, 2006~NY Daily News reports plot to bomb Holland Tunnel, flood Wall Street. FBI Ass’t Director Mark Mershon calls threat “the real deal.” However suspect had been arrested three months earlier, after bragging about his planned exploits in an Internet chat room. Said one CIA officer, “The plot, if that is what we would call it, was not well conceived, and there was no possibility of flooding Wall Street. There was no connection to a cell in the US.”
July 10, 2007~ Homeland Security chief Michael Chertoff warns of a personal “gut feeling” that the U.S. is entering “a period of increased vulnerability” of attack. Chertoff subsequently confessed, “We don’t have specific intelligence about an attack, that is, a particular attack against the homeland, that is imminent or scheduled for the summer.”
thank you for that great timeline, I especially loved this one;
as if blowing up a tunnel could possibly flood a land mass that’s higher then sea level
yet this was called “the real deal”
Great timeline, cinnamonage! This should be a diary, not just a comment. I read that some official had admitted they ramped up the alerts just before elections to support the idea that BushCo had kept us so safe, therefore should be re-elected. Will try to find a link to that admission.
thanx for the assist everyone
by the way, the great quote, “democracy dies on tortures rack” was written here at the lake by glen smith
Recommended. (I also quit DIGG).
Excellent diary and Glen Smith quote, thanks.
I read somewhere that the torture program began when Tenet found out that the FBI had gotten the info on KSM from Zubadah; “he hit the ceiling”. Apparently appealed to Goergie and Cheney’s sadism and got James Mitchell sent in and the turf war between FBI interrogators and CIA knuckledraggers began.
This is not that surprising, because all sorts of people know how real interrogations are done. I used to be a university lecturer, and one of the mandated unpleasant duties was cracking down on plagiarism. I always got confessions and, not only did I inflict no pain, I never departed from referring to the guilty party as “Mr.” or “Ms.” More than once, they thanked me afterward.
What was my secret? It turns out that it was the same as the old Marine Corps secret: know the enemy, be kind and sympathetic, and never ask direct questions on the main subject until you already know the answer. I’d get them to discuss their ideas on the subject matter generally. I’d question inconsistencies as if puzzleed. I’d gradually reduce them to near panic. Only then would I introduce evidence in the form of the offending essay and ask direct questions.
Why does this work? It works because we are people. This is how mothers and fathers get the truth out of their children. Any sensible person with any real experience knows this. Establish empathy. Get the person talking. Be patient. Get the signed statement.
Last night I was going through my notes and came across information on these two.
Apparently, not only did they give advice on interrogation, which is outside their area of expertise,
but they also gave legal avice, even though neither is a lawyer…..
And they gave medical advice…although neither is an MD (which would make them psychiatrists, not, as they are, psychologists).
good catch!