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That’s a question I ask myself a fair amount. Sometimes I ask it about myself, and other times I’ll read a comment or diary or post and ask it about someone else.
When I ask it about myself, I’m usually trying to sort something out. “What is it about this place that draws you in, Peterr — and draws you in not just to read, but to comment and to write?”
The big reason I came to FDL, like many old timers, was because of Scooter Libby and the humor here. OK, the two reasons I came were because of Scooter, the humor, and defending the constitution. . . . AMONG the reasons I came were Scooter, the humor, defending the constitution, and the amazing collection of folks who also came to FDL.
Once upon a time, FDL was a little, one-woman blog by Jane. It’s gone through several major technical evolutions, has had a procession of guest and regular posters, and now has MyFDL — a community site where just about anyone can post their thoughts in a diary.
FDL grew, because people became engaged with one another. For me, the engagement came with the feeling of “Damn, I wish I’d said that” or “Yeah, that’s what I was thinking, too” or “Wait a minute — what about X?” after reading a post or a comment, and it grew each time someone said “Welcome” or “thanks for that” or “OK, but did you ever consider Y?”
We are a very mixed group of folks around the ‘Lake. We have folks who are employed in all kinds of fields, as well as self employed, unemployed, and retired folks too. We have large families and small ones, some are old and others young, some with little formal education, others with advanced degrees, and still others with everything in between. Folks here espouse all kinds of religious beliefs, including no religious belief at all. We have oldtimers, newcomers, and many in between.
What we share, though, seems stronger than what separates us from each other. We share a lot around here, and not just about politics, the law, and the Constitution. Though we argue and debate, at times with great passion, we also care for and take care of each other, and that’s part of the charm of the place.
Until we don’t.
When I see comments filled with ALL CAPS, shouting at others, I cringe. I didn’t come here for the screaming, whether I agree with the screamer or not.
When I see people being insulted and called “capos,” it’s not just a violation of Godwin’s Law, but an offense against the community. I didn’t come here to be insulted or to see insults slung around.
And when I see anyone except Jane claiming to speak for all of FDL, I laugh. Even (as I look upwards in this post and see my thoughts about “we” at FDL) when I’m the one doing it.
For a community to not simply survive, but thrive, there must be mutual respect — especially between those who disagree with one another. Toward that end, let me offer a few thoughts on etiquette around here — not so much rules as much as a description of the way things seem to happen at FDL.
Abuse: For as long as I can remember, FDL doesn’t take kindly to anyone bashing the posters. You can go after their arguments, offer a smack-down of their clearly mis-informed opinions, or otherwise engage their remarks, but gratuitous, ad hominem insults and threats are a big no-no. Similarly, any references to doing violence to others, especially public officials, will not be tolerated in the least.
Staying on topic: Generally speaking, comments are expected to relate to the topic of the thread, especially at the beginning of the conversation. This is basic respect for the person who took the time to put the post together. Some threads are more strict about this, like the Book Salon discussions and the liveblogging threads, and off topic comments should be kept on a different thread in deference to the guests.
Snark: In most posts and diaries, folks at FDL seem to like the tone of the comments to match that of the original author and the topic under discussion. If an author is speaking seriously, the questions and comments usually follow suit. Similarly, if the post is filled with snark, the comments will no doubt return the favor.
Two of my favorite FDL-isms over the years are (1) Got a link for that? and (2) Do not feed the trolls. The former is either a solicitation for more information, or a prod to someone to document a claim with which someone disagrees. The latter is a plea to the community to live up to its standards.
What’s a troll? Trolls are folks who come by to hijack a thread by ruining the discussion. Think of an angry drunk shouting and throwing food around at a nice dinner party – that’s a troll. Trolls are looking for attention, and seek it by being disruptive and abusive.
I didn’t come to FDL for the trolls.
Spotting trolls is easy enough. They are the folks who are not interested in building a community. They do not care about their fellow commentators and do not treat them with respect. They do not care about creating the conditions for effectively making a difference in the world. They care about being right, and about others admitting they are right. They care first, last, and always only about themselves. If left unchecked, trolls kind of make everyone else want to pack up and leave.
I didn’t come for the trolls.
Over the years, FDL has used a variety of means to keep the trolls at bay, but by far the best is for the community members to hold one another to account for how we treat one another. Ordinary good manners go a long way around here, and saying things like “please,” “thank you,” “you’re welcome,” and “sorry about that” are always a good idea. Extraordinarily good manners are also welcome, as when someone pipes up to say “Peterr, I love ya, but you gotta quit calling that Eli guy a loon. He’s wrong, of course, but calling him a loon doesn’t help matters.”
In her book The Monastery of the Heart, Sister Joan Chittister OSB speaks of how communities are built and sustained. She writes
It requires that we explore and support the gifts of each in conscious and committed ways.
It demands that we work together to release one another’s gifts to strengthen the communal voice.
[snip]
The community binds itself together for the sake of learning from the wisdom of all.
[snip]
Identifying and choosing good leaders is of the essence of community building. We will become what we choose.
I don’t know about you, but I choose not to be a troll and have no wish to hang out with trolls. I might privately flag a comment that is way over the line, or send an email if I know the commenter personally. I might, politely, suggest that the behavior that strikes me as trollish be dialed back. One way or another, those who see the community’s standards being eroded have to step up — not to feed the trolls but to bear witness to the community’s standards of behavior.
That witness also includes praising the best among us for their constructive words and actions. Recommending good diaries, praising good and thoughtful comments, and lifting up the best our community has to offer will stand in stark contrast to the words and actions of trolls.
When the community does these things, those who engage in trollish behavior have a choice: adapt or be banned. In the face of repeated warnings from the community, no one will be surprised by someone being banned by continuing to violate the standards of this place. The only surprise, for some, will be why it took so long.
I didn’t come for the trolls. I came for the puns and stayed for the passion. I came for the community that has grown up around a shared desire to help our nation identify and choose good leaders that respect the constitution and the values it lays out in the preamble.
We will become what we choose. I’m here, because I choose to be in the company of people who want to work with one another to make a difference in the world.
But that’s just me.
Why are you here?
_____
image h/t to christoph.grothaus.
275 Comments
Superb, timely, and very necessary diary, Peterr.
You have about covered “it”.
Recommended to everyone at FDL … and I do mean everybody.
If FDL is to be an exemplary community, and I consider that should and must be, then what Peterr is saying here, and what Scarecrow has been saying in a number of places these last several days, must needs be harkened to, embraced, and practiced.
The leadership of Firedoglake has behaved with courage, compassion, and deeply human understanding’ rising to Best Practice nad serving as stellar example. The rest of us dishonor them if we fail to try to do likewise.
End of wee rant.
To everyone at FDL I offer the word which Southern Dragon has popularized here … I trust that most of you know its meaning and significance … essentially, I trust and deeply respect each and every human being whom I have had the privilege and pleasure of meeting here.
Namaste
DW
Thank you Peterr.
I appreciate the reminder about what makes Firedoglake a very special place.
Someday, I promise to learn to spell nad type the word “and” properly “and” consistently.
Really.
If my fingers will just cooperate …
;~DW
Tyops, too, are a part of the charm of FDL.
*bows to DWB*
Thanks for your kind words.
Very nicely put, Peterr. Thanks!
Thank you, Peterr. This is a very timely reminder.
Peterr, I have but one more thing to say, and then I’ll shut up and slink away … I have just visited a post, which I promised myself that I would not ever comment upon and rarely, if ever, visit … a post where it is common, and I consider a well-known “practice” for the poster, a front pager no less, to engage in rather unpleasant exchanges with others, sometimes not even on his own post …
Do the “rules of behavior” which Scarecrow has made VERY plain, and which you have just eloquently discussed … apply, equally, to all, including front pagers and visiting “experts”, or do they not?
It may well not be within you power or purview to say, and I well understand that likelihood and, I will readily admit, that I have NO idea who has “power”, here, and who does not, but if exceptions are made on the basis of “style”, in this case, often referred to as “humor”, then how is Best Example to be, honestly, served?
I apologize for raising this issue if it is, somehow, “off limits”, but I am, by nature, curious and, by inclination, impressed with democratic principle, and especially the “rule of law”, as I hold that principle to be the very foundation of a civil and responsible society, in which actual equality is not simply paid lip service, but actively, and consistently, insisted upon.
Thank you, Peterr, for your genuine and evident patience and for your abiding tolerance of those, like myself, who ask all sorts of questions, some of which you must, I am certain, find most uncomfortable.
DW
Peterr
Thank you. Yes, I also promise to do my utmost to uphold that standard that you set here.
In fact, to set the tone I publicly apologize to Phoenix Woman, Teddy Partridge and Larue. I had a very nice conversation with Scarecrow AKA John the Mod. As he pointed out, our enemies are not here at the Lake. He also provided an avenue in which to deal with perceived grievances. Even for us “little people.”
This approach is unheard of and FDL should be applauded for it. I may hold a different view on how to deal with this but I can respect John, Jane and FDL enough to agree with it.
There may come a time when some of us will need to defend the front door while others defend the back.
In answer to your question on why I am here. I was amazed that there was a place where “we little people” could create our own articles. Of course to add to that I have found myself banned from multiple “progressive blogs” and places. I even wrote an article on it which was published here, Censorship- A Liberal Value.
Thank you for this diary, Peterr.
I am relatively new to FDL, and truthfully, have found the war between cliques (if that’s what it is) quite unsettling. (I have no idea what sparked it, and believe me, I’m not asking–I don’t want to know.)
By the way, you mentioned the use of “all caps.” I occasionally use them for emphasis, and had no idea that this is perceived as rude, much less “yelling.”
Do you know of any online reference that spells out the “rules” of blogging?
Thanks–
Blue
DWBartoo
That was the exact same question that I asked Scarecrow AKA John the Mod. His answer was acceptable to me.
Oh yes and recc’ed for this very timely article.
Thanks for this comment. And I’d like to personally compliment you for your exceptional efforts to improve the tone and quality of discussions here. Your example has been incredibly helpful.
Peterr, well said. As an “old timer” I appreciate the reminder and would add that we – like every community – need to pause from time to tie to remember why we are here
But … You look nothing like that fellow in the photo!
Thank you for your post and your insights/feedback. I’m glad we’re all just human and can remind ourselves of that when we don’t live up to the ideals we set for ourselves. I think FDL has proven itself a strong leader in the blogosphere because it did the right thing and proved that doing the right things may be difficult, but worth it. I have nothing but optimism that FDL will continue to grow, through ups and downs.
Scarecrow made a great comment on another diary,that contributes to this “looking forward, not backwards” and I want to quote just part of it, (having told him I would do so since it was so colorful).
italics mine
Peace.
That statement is very much appreciated. Thank you.
John
It was your fault. You started it.
LOL
Thank you Sir.
I love Sister Joan Chittister OSB!
Thanks for this. Recc
I too have been around these parts for a long time now, and there is much good work done by wonderful people here. That includes both the mainline bloggers who appear on the front page AND the commenters, who provide so much to the effort.
John and Peter served the community well by setting this plate, but what is incredibly refreshing is to see how all are coming to it together.
Well done by all.
I hesitate to say too much, as I don’t know the post or person to whom you refer. But in general, when I offer my thoughts on FDL etiquette, I offer them with the sense that they apply to all of us.
To the extent that you think someone has gone over the line, you might politely ask *them* to comment on this post.
Scooter, the humor and the constitution…..
Good reasons to come here, along with those added in the comments.
I came to fdl, like I was attracted to blogs in general, to learn. To learn not just what one couldn’t learn in the establishment media, but from the commenters and guest post contributors – all the way back to early 2005, when I started following fdl.
In mid-2005, when I started commenting, Jane immediately encouraged me. That was good, as I was intimidated by the enormous knowledge and experience in politics and underlying issues brought here. I didn’t feel I had anything to offer that wasn’t already being said.
But when political corruption in Alaska became national news in 2006, I was able to teach and inform here from time to time, as well as learn. Then came late August 2008.
Preparing diaries for firedoglake or MyFDL has helped my writing. Thanks for that.
One of the people I’ve learned the most from here is Peterr. He’s got that rare character trait of being able to be an ethicist without even coming close to concern troll territory.
This essay just got me to make another minor contribution to firedoglake. Thank you, Peterr.
Sorry for the caps, bro – DING!
great post,sometimes i find the commenters petty,and foolish,but soooo much has been gained by the greater majority of erudite contributors ,that i have to overlook the mundane…thanks FDL
I accept your apology and promise you that I will work to ensure a civil tone in the future. To the extent that my words exacerbated this issue on this week’s threads, please understand I have long held strong feelings about this place and sometimes get carried away defending Firedoglake.
I’m sorry for my part. You are not alone in feeling I exceeded the bounds of this place.
Teddy
Can we have a bro hug?..LOLOL
Awww, I love ya man.
Thank you Sir.
I came here years ago…when it was Jane and another woman (who I loved but my over 40 brain cannot remember..) I was looking desperately for any “real” news about George W Bush. I knew in my heart that this was a man who was doing harm to the world, but I could not find the facts to support what was screaming at me in my heart. I only had my judgments and I was seeking facts. It was so invalidating. I couldn’t say anything publicly against him for fear that my friends were “in love with him” as it seemed the world was. It was like he had become the “supreme ruler”. Everyone supported him. The media supported him. My friends seem to support him. But my gut was screaming.
I did a search and I found empty wheel’s old blog and this one. Later on I found Dkos. These blogs kept me sane. And I am committed to my sanity. I will not let conflict, or other people’s issues keep me from what I know is the purpose of this place.
Conflict is inevitable. It is not a sign of “badness” but it is a challenge if we are ever to evolve. I practice a non judgmental stance to the best of my ability. That doesn’t mean that judgments don’t slip through but it means that I understand fully that judgments are about emotions and bias. They are short cuts, short hand to feelings. They are not the facts. Feelings are not facts. Linky’s are at least support for facts!
Every where I go…my purpose is peace. I believe that we can be peaceful. I believe that alcoholism, alzheimers, brain tumors, parkinsons, down’s syndrome, aspergers and autism are not here on this earth just to perplex and torture us. I believe they force us to see new paradigms. They force us to understand in a way that only loved ones can. We cannot dismiss the people we love and as we learn that projecting our interpretations does not work…we become free to have new interpretations of one and other!
None of you on this blog could ever, ever be THE PROBLEM. Because I try to mind my own emotional responses to you. If I am feeling unhappy, sad or angry by what is written, I accept full responsibility for regulating that for myself. This is the ONLY path to peace that I know of. Practicing a non judgmental stance, being willing to see the dialectic (the opposing arguments in any situation, being able to regulate my own responses, and recognizing that I will never, ever have a complete handle on truth as long as I am perceiving life through this brain and this body.) I am open to different perspectives.
I love this place. I love the people on it. I don’t see conflict as bad, and I see that offense is in the eye of the beholder. We here, have a chance, to develop the skills to peace, in our reactions and interactions with one another.
I love you…glad to see that we have come to a peaceful place…but rest assured that I am fully responsible for any conflictual feelings inside of me…even when I don’t want to be. I know the power of projection and I am willing to work on my own stuff!
That’s why I am here. Love you all!
Peace,
Katie
I would also like to apologize for dropping the f bomb the other day on the diary asking what happened.
Teddy
BTW just so that you know. I promote FDL everywhere I go. This place is essential. We both have a deep love and feelings of wanting to defend FDL.
Thanks again Sir.
I have always respected your advocacy and your passion. I was devastated that you took issue with me, more because I held you in high esteem. Sorry for the capo comment. Since my first efforts on FDL, you always were the biggest and baddest (in a good way) blogger on here, so it only fit that I would use the concept of being the second-in-charge to defend the place.
I’ll consider the past as nothing but past, if you can understand that I was not here to harm FDL, no matter what some might have thought. I read your liveblogging of 8, but never commented. I do that a lot, and maybe if I had said more often that I appreciate your work, maybe you might have realized my intentions better. Sorry for not showing that appreciation sooner. Shall we just say that it was a heated night and sometimes colleagues and allies forget they are colleagues and allies?
i forgot to say,i look at FDl (7 years?) as a fountain ,or a well?something always springing up.adding knowledge
thank you peterr. tweeted and recommended with thanks.
i came to find out the truth behind the plame outing. i stayed because i found a community that cares about each other and is respectful of others — where folks can agree to disagree without being nasty and rude and insulting.
i have worn many hats at fdl — first as a commenter then as a moderator and then a front pager and now i also work backstage as the leader of the membership engagement team that calls members encouraging them to become more active. what keeps me here is the civility, respect, and that flaming a front pager or any other commenter is not tolerated.
those who want to call others names to create purposeful chasms within our fdl community do not deserve to be a part of that community and i have no problem with banning those who do so. i am glad to say that in the 5 years i have been around here, bans are rare occasions and have been made after multiple warnings to the offending party.
the self-policing community is us taking care of ourselves and being responsible for what we have here at fdl. the editors know when the system is being abused and takes steps to warn those who do so. i use it only when it is necessary to do so and i am glad that it is there. we have to work to keep our community going — to keep it special so that all of our voices are heard. i don’t want people leaving this site because they no longer feel safe here.
Sorry for the ALL CAPS. Like another commenter, I never thought of it as yelling. But no worries about the f-bomb. I drop em too sometimes (face-to-face) so I figure a digital mistake can’t be much worse.
Fine comment. Jane’s co blogger when the Plame matter got going was Christy Hardin Smith, lovely person, and a dear friend of ours. Her library can be found in our archives.
PeterR:
I am here cuz of LibbyGate, the discovery then of incredible insights I went thru in the 60′s n 70′s, that were recorded, reported and shared by the crew then, and all those who commented.
It was like the 60′s all over again! I found a tribe.
N after that, I was here because Mz. Hamsher provided elements to news and info I couldn’t get elsewhere, that was progressive in nature.
I had the internets, and other sites, and then as now, favored the international based sources, but FDL had NEWS.
Good stuff, analytical, well writ . . . again front page and comments were all illuminating, damn there WERE progressive hippies who care out there!
FDL made changes, I got booted once regarding Shillary, time marches on, and to this day, I’m still here and a paid member (and will renew, he says, ferverently).
Because of the news and info, and the commentary, and the dialogue.
But Peter, and all you others, and FDL, I like it rough.
I will NOT capitulate to being nice to those who usurp this forum.
I reserve the right to use uncivil language, to cuss people out, and take umbrage with any diary, thot or comment that appears.
N That, PeterR, is why I’m still here.
FLD allows me to be myself, as long as I don’t go too far.
But NO ONE who seeks to usurp this forum(s) as has been done a few times, will escape my eyes, or my tongue.
Because this is the best we got, it’s likely the only thing we real progressives got . . . n I’ll be damned if I’ll stand by and let others fuck it up. I WILL express my opinion.
*smilessweetly*
I hope nobody is going to continue to claim that I tried to usurp this forum. Please. That was never my intention, although some thought it was. I hope you know that. Thanks. Perhaps we can move forward?
I came here for the Libby coverage, but I stayed because people, including the writers, responded sensibly to my comments, and even laughed at my jokes. It’s a pretty good combination.
I discovered intelligence and depth and was fairly new to the blogosphere when I found FDL. I loved Christy’s pithy and also humane posts. Of course there were the heady days (?) of Scooter when FDL was a must read, no matter what. I love the live blogs, who cannot appreciate the Prop 8 action we got (first) via FDL? I appreciate the news and the analysis, from the front page and the threads.
I learned this last week in a way I did not expect exactly that my family is seriously conflict-averse. That does not mean we don’t have conflict, but it comes by the side door, when it comes, and it is hard to figure out what the root is, from the side. And I have plenty of anger, but I just don’t think it needs to be expressed towards the people who are here. I rarely am tempted to feed trolls. Lordy, I just came from a counter-t-party event, and there were some people there who could not stop themselves from flinging poo across the street.
Maybe I am just tired right now (I am), but I don’t have the energy to engage in too much anger here. Except towards the PTB and the 1%.
As someone who does not have another platform, it is mighty generous of Jane to give us such access to put up our own stuff at My FDL. Beautiful.
Anyway, peterr, I trust you to get to the kernel of the issue, and I thank you for the post.
Let’s move forward.
This is a good thread to do just that, as Teddy and Michael and Scarecrow have illustrated above. Leave it to Peterr to be the one capable of providing an adequate vehicle for reconciliation.
Thanks Edward. I never think we had a rift, but you and I shall move forward. :)
In Vietnam, there was always someone who was willing to walk point. Terrible bridge player, but we were grateful for what he did.
I think I can relate to that.
we didn’t and don’t
Hi Katie,
For a trip down memory lane, check out:
http://christyhardinsmith.firedoglake.com/
Dang, a glass of sweet tea would be really nice right about now.
QE
Larue, I love ya, but . . .
*g*
One of your posts that really hit home with me was about making stock. After all the craziness and chaos of the evening rush in the kitchen, after everything is cleaned up, . . .:
Expressing your opinion is not just OK, but necessary. But is it too much to ask that you let the stock bubble gently, and not turn up the heat so much that everything boils over?
It’s how flavors are made. Or so I’m told.
that’s great to know. Sometimes in the digital world, white space can be interpreted many different ways, and words aren’t always used the same by two different people. As others have probably realized, I tend to the wordy side sometimes, but that is not for lack of brevity. It is due to an abundance of concern for precision in a world without facial gestures, body motions, tone of voice and eye contact to fill in that white space.
Did I use yer name, or anyone’s?
*G*
To that ET, I got a big old ;-) for ya.
PeterR set the table . . . who will eat.
;-)
No you didn’t. I just wanted to make sure you and I were good. Its not sense in pretending we didn’t have issues. I was reaching out. Thanks.
DAMN PeterR, yer smoother n any demi glace I ever made, or any 35 yr old whiskey, tequiola I ever quaffed.
Nice move hoss.
I’ll stand with my comment tho . . .
Ya see, sometimes it’s ok to step aside and let it go.
N sometimes, when ya do this too much, ya find out yer screwed, beat up and well, done, cuz ya didn’t fight from the get go.
Me?
I’m the one who fights from the get go . . .
N people like me are needed, for the masses.
N I’m not really excited about playing this part, cuz I could get hurt. But I’m willing to fight, for what’s right.
Even at 59. ;-)
Let’s not forget, those others lawyered up more than a few times, and that was a DIRECT threat to Mz. Hamsher, and her budget available to fight said lawyers.
N that’s a threat, IMHO . . . I just won’t tolerate that in others.
Tommy Jones had a line in Lonesome Dove . . . similar to my feelings.
Some stuff, ya just can’t tolerate or it ruins YOU for your life cuz ya didn’t stand up.
Kapiche?
Well, in honor of Peterr’s story of how the term “Ding!” came abut, I’ve uncorked a 2007 Copolla Tempranillo.
Tried to find Peterr’s original post on it, but came up blank.
Peterr, I think you are a very well-intentioned and wise person, and I am glad you wrote this diary. I don’t think we’ve met much on FDL, and this may be the first time I’ve posted on a diary you’ve written. I appreciate your effort, and I think that we each person can only do what each person can do. After that, we just have to have faith. Thanks again. And, I hope you can appreciate my intentions and accept my apology for all my etiquette flubs. Its your diary, so I will leave it that. Thank you.
Nice choice of wine.
From that old post:
*DING*
Too funny ET, at our camp at a 2 x a year fest, the phrase DING is what folks cry out when someone gets up for a cold one.
Ding, means, Get ME One Too!! N it’s obligatory.
Cuz of course, we is all socialists and care for each other in this camp.
DING, AYE is the more assertive version, get me one, and NOW dangit.
;-)
Dude, the whole point of the post is that none of us are in this alone.
You, individually, do not have to shoulder the whole burden of asking (or demanding) folks to play nice. It’s something we ALL owe each other.
Fifty people calling someone out — quietly but firmly — will probably be a lot more effective than one person screaming from the rooftops.
Wow, that’s a fun post. I had forgotten that one.
…and just because I can… a double ding to you and ET
First time I’ve had it. Got it sent to Alaska for $10 per bottle, free freight. Copolla’s wine people appear to be serious about creating a great Rioja in California, though the grapes in this came from Spain.
Re-reading the Ding! post was a treat. Thanks for the link.
In Alaska, one has to be careful when saying “Ding!” in a bar. In the fishing town of Cordova, it means you’ve just agreed to buy everyone in the bar another drink. No way to back out and retain honor.
Thank you, Peterr for the suggestion. However, after seeing Michael’s comment @10 and your inclusion of, “all of us”, I’m inclined to wait and see what trust and common purpose, for such it truly is, will bring into more evolved and potent being.
Frankly, I’m just a wee bit embarrassed by what Scarecrow said to me and, as today is me launch date, I consider the general respect among equals which this post of yours has encouraged and solidified, to be in the nature of universe presenting me the gift of a most welcome sense of true community and powerful aligned forces regrouping into a much stronger and more coherent whole.
I’m very much honored to be included among such a magnificent group of wonderful and loving human beings … I’ve been most fortunate to have known a number of amazing souls in my lifetime, somehow finding myself at the right place at the right time … and with what exists here, at the Lake, I consider my luck to not just be “holding” but improving every single day.
My appreciation to you, Peterr, and to every one of you who Occupy this this time and place … again, I say
Namaste
DW
Thanks, Peterr.
Ok
Sitting on hands. Being nice, Pleasant. Not my forum, not my rules.
LOLOL
Peterr and Scarecrow AKA John the Mod. You have no idea how difficult this is. Grin.
Who am I kidding? I think you both know. No problem for me though.
Thanks, Michael. Have a quiet shift tonight.
Katie, I love your expression of the responsibility we each hold for our reactions. Thank you.
I came here during the Plame days, hungry for news, and found myself surrounded by such interesting people…to share in this place is to share companionship, humor, frailty, common experience, wonderful writers, storytellers, musicians, Book Salon authors, recipes…it is quite a place, and I’m so glad it’s here. I’ve made friends here.
Thanks Peterr, and also thanks for mentioning Joan Chittester, I love her.
Heh.
ET has me in a reflective mood . . .
An old — and I mean old — nurse once taught me a very wise lesson in the ICU about sorting things out.
It’s been more than 25 years, and I’m still working on it. It gets easier over time, though.
Phoenix,
Thanks. No actually. I did not work tonight. I went to the Amy Goodman event at the Minneapolis library. I passed out some flyers for the fundraiser tomorrow and talked to Amy. I told her that while her law suit during the RNC won, that virtually every other one was tossed out. Including mine.
Hey Phoenix. Here is a thought. Please take it in the spirit it is intended. Come to my Birthday Party tomorrow. Free. On the house. Have some tasty food. Ask a question. Make it a really hard one. Put me on the spot.
Seriously. I mean it. If I can’t stand the heat I should not be able to do the job.
Saturday March 24th
6 pm- 9 pm
Mayday Books
301 Cedar Ave S.
Minneapolis In the Cedar Riverside district.
Ah, wavpeac, Katie, as always, you say “it” all so very wonderfully well, from the kind, true heart and the gentle, encompassing soul of your loving and beautiful humanity …
Namaste
DW
I hope that this diary may be left “up” and accessible for an extended “period of time”, as it is by way of becoming a Portal of Passage, a Pathway to the True Firedoglake Center of conscious human awareness and recognition.
This is a magic space … time-place.
How many comments might find their way here?
;~DW
I expect there to be at least 1000 comments by the time I get up tomorrow morning.
*grin*
The diary will be accessible like any past diary or post, though the comments close off after a certain amount of time.
Heh. The tempranillo and thinking back on the life of fdl and dealing with clergy like you and RevDeb and RevBev and others got me thinking about something along the same lines.
In early 2007, I was asked to play “Taps” on the bugle at the memorial service of Alaska mushing (dog-sledding) legend Herbie Nayokpuk. Herbie was Lutheran, but there wasn’t a Lutheran church in Anchorage big enough to hold it. So they held it at the Anchorage Baptist Temple, lair of Dr. Jerry Prevo, the most right-wing, politically engaged and divisive minister in Alaska history.
The sanctuary was packed, and the service was quite moving, especially the many Native Alaskans speaking in Inupiat from a podium that usually reinforced Alaska’s institutionalized racism against Natives affirming pre-Christian concepts.
Taps is played very near or at the end of these affairs. The short melody is evocative and when heard, it is the time when the reality of the finality of death finally hits many family members.
I had been moved by the memorial service. I played particularly well. After playing, I stood in the shadows at the back of the sanctuary for 30 seconds or so, then silently backed out into the hallway. After standing there quietly for another 30 seconds or so, someone touched me gently on my left shoulder. It was Dr. Prevo, a man I had come to deeply despise, perhaps hate.
He looked at me with tears streaming down to his cheek, and said “That has got to be the most beautiful rendition of that music I have ever heard.”
I thought him incapable of sincerity, but could tell from his tears and the grip of his hand that he wasn’t bullshitting. It was quite jarring. The experience changed the way I think about him.
Things I read here, often in the comments, can jar me and change the way I think about ideas, objectives and people too.
I was thinking 1000-plus as well, Peterr.
Can’t be mere coinky Ding!
;~DW
Wow.
I pulled up his obit at adn.com, and they note that he had not one or two but three separate services — in Anchorage, Nome, and Shishmaref. I know some of the Lutheran pastors in Alaska, but don’t know who would have been there back then. Did the pastor from Shishmaref come to Anchorage to do the memorial service? Do you remember who that was?
His pastor from when Herbie was young in Shishamref delivered the Anchorage eulogy. Duane Hanson, who I’ve known now, sometimes fairly closely, for 28 years. Duane is pastor at the Lutheran Church of the Good Shepherd in Wasilla. Last year his daughter Britta, a friend of my son’s from school activities, married Sarah Palin’s son Track.
Nope — don’t know him. Thanks, though.
I really hate it when they play Taps. It gets all hard to see clearly and my throat doesn’t want to let anything through.
Finally made me look up “namaste” A bow or greeting that is my soul recognizing yours, sorta.
http://www.yogajournal.com/basics/822
Three reasons I came to and stayed at FDL. The Plame coverage, the snark, the amazing expertise that gets revealed on almost any subject and that FDL is a day or two ahead of everybody else.
Namaste
As family fights go, this one had quite an edge to it, didn’t it. It was a little disturbing to watch, but I was confident it would blow over like family fights do.
Glad it’s done and thank you Peterr for putting it A. in such good perspective and B. behind us.
Why am I here? I was a casual reader/lurker here for a while and then 4 years ago (yikes!) Jane put out a call for video editors. I answered and did a project.
Became an avid reader then and helped with a couple more media projects but didn’t start commenting/posting until a couple of years ago.
Don’t know why I waited so long. I cherish this place and all of you and what I’ve learned and what I’ve gotten a chance to do.
Namaste friends.
It is so nice to see all my “old” FDL friends as well as the new ones.
I came around 2005, and it has been my home ever since.
I cannot tell you how many smiles, commiseration,and compassion I have seen in this virtual retreat we call FDL.
It is home.
Thank you for this post, Peterr. I would love to hear you preach sometime.
Peterr,
While the 1k may be unacheivable, I will add my meager comment to the total. I started reading FDL when the beloved Chrity was a commenter known as reddhead. I have never left. It is the first thing I read when I arise at 3:30 central and is on my work computer all day. Every day. I do not comment all that much because in general the intellectual level of posters and commenters is more than a bit intimidating for someone like me. (high school drop out, self educated in adulthood)
Your diary is both timely and much appreciated. I have stayed for the sense of community. Knowing that there are people that value the same things I do has become important to me. I find that here.
Thanks for the beautifully written piece.
I’ve been “here” for a while as a lurker. I have yet to write a diary entry. I first came here because somebody on Daily Kos linked to some article here back during the Bush presidency. I was mainly a lurker there at the time, too. I remained a regular reader of both sites because I thought politically both FDL and DKos are about where I am.
Now I’m here more often than anywhere else on the internet primarily because of the support for Occupy. Over the last few years I have seen Daily Kos turn into what is effectively a vote-making and fundraising outfit for democrats where criticism is tolerated to a certain point mainly as a cover. If Bush had done a tenth of the awful, thoroughly-republican, for-the-rich-against-the-poor things Obama has done that site would have melted with outrage, but they’re practically frothing at the mouth with their cheerleading efforts. Currently the front page there is basically one distraction after another. Who cares what Republican X said about Republican Y at a speech? So I’ve become a far less frequent lurker there and shifted to being one here.
Anyway, I contributed to the Occupy fund here at FDL, and I remain a regular lurker and occasional commenter because it seems this place hasn’t succumbed to “election fever” (yet?). The diaries are generally good and, like Daily Kos used to be, occasionally more informative than any news item even on NPR about important stories.
So, yeah, that’s why I’m here: I’m a political news junky who supports Occupy and FDL’s support of Occupy.
I also intend to try pushing for electoral reform, and I figure this audience is likely to be receptive to the message and at least willing to listen.
Thanks for the diary peterrrr.
A response like this is what makes you great!
I like how “workingclass” responds to Larue. ‘Everyone knows you’re in charge around here!”, respectfully of course.
He or she is funny and pithy. I agree with Larue on this one though.
I’ve been here since about week 2 or 3. I lurked 4evah!
But the law stuff drew me out. And the people. Mostly the people. The folks here are so very smart and such good (and quick) researchers. You can find any piece of info it seems in minutes.
FDL is a counterweight to the veal pen media that seem to just rehash and rehash the same 5 stories all day long. This is a real news organization, not a spin stenography outfit.
I love the activist component, The Rubber Stamp Project is still my alltime favorite. It was witty, it was punchy, it was fun. But the live blogging of the Prop 8 trial, the uproar we caused when Bradley Manning was being held in solitary, the support for repealing don’t ask don’t tell and the support for OWS are real, and serious and have moved the needle on the dial.
What goes on here matters.
So, anyone taking away from that, whether by trying to bend it to their personal use (I’m looking at you discount designer sneaker spammers), or creating a distraction that saps the energy away from the hard work that goes on here is toxic to the wellbeing of the FDL borg.
It would break my heart to see FDL reduced to warring cliques.
Thank you Paterr for, as always, being wise and wonderful. Scarecrow has shown such patience through this ugly incident and have to to give him mad props as well.
I’ve always thought the comment threads were the best part of a post. It’s where the crowdsource info comes from. And where all the fun and snark are. I would hate to see us become a site w/o a comment feature. Really hate that.
As always, I apologize in advance for all the typos.
I came here two years ago, during the BP Oil-leak crisis. In researching the story, I kept encountering Seminal bloggers – the predecessor to MyFDL. They/you were discussing political philosophy as it relates to current news, from a Progressive point of view.
I saw Left-leaning people relating to each other, teaching and learning from each other. I wanted to be part of that teaching and learning.
I have decades of experience in several diverse areas that can benefit the community, and the community has tremendous diverse experience and teachings from which I benefit through learning.
Through all these years in journalism and activism, I wished I had a forum where people who already knew something were discussing what really matters. I Love It Here!
Two years ago, things around here were a lot more solidly Democratic-Party. I was a Democrat then too, but my father was a far-Left leaning Democrat, and I took that start to heart, and have pushed Leftward all my political life.
Many of my early articles were on the BP spill and the environmental implications thereof. I got lots of resistance from Democrats here, as President Obama misbehaved in the case and I had to point it out. I had to. I am less here to win friends than to influence people.
Now, many of you may realize what an ecological crime it was for President Obama to spray chemical weapon dispersants into the Gulf of Mexico, instead of starting the clean-up. I thought it was despicable.
I didn’t get much support here on that subject then. But as I and others have continued crusading to the Left, now, less than two years later, we have a community that is solidly to the Left of the Democratic Party.
We, people like me, have Greatly Influenced MyFDL, which is today yet more vibrant than ever. I intend to keep crusading to the Left, which I’m sure is unwelcome to some. But I love all of you, and I feel a lot of love.
Now I get lots more support from Left-of-Dems here than I used to. I still sometimes get intense resistance that seems personal. I apologize to people who are shaken up to the point of anger or panic because of what I report. I’ll try to do better.
I am glad I’m here, but I don’t know if the new outlook means I’m more welcomed, or if it means that my footing here is more sketchy. What do you think on that friends/lovers? Any constructive criticism?
hey peterr, a terrific diary I must say, both your post and the answers
I came here right about when you did and for exactly the same reasons
back then this was indeed a one women blog but the commenters kept posting all day so it was an all day blog even though there might be one, two or three posts a day, from the same author, jane.
it was because of you peterr, and punast, and mary and evil parallele universe (anyone know what happened to him?)
funny how epu had an eniter phrase named after him for always finding a way to post something important on one thread right when another was being posted
“I WAS EPU’D!!!” (and there you have all caps, sorry)
anyway, like most of us, I fell in love with jane, I fell in love with the comments and commenters and I fell in love with writing MY feelings here on the blog as well
still love this place, I have to admit though, obama has taken all the fire out of this puppy and he’s made it seem like we are fighting for hero’s that become traitors to us
I tell you what, i think jane should persue public office, there we would find a champion who’s colors could not change
Oh my YES! Christy Hardin Smith!! Miss her so.
EPU’d…Ha!! I love it. I always came in the early morning to the threads at night and commented exactly as the new stuff for the day was coming up. I guess many of us did.
DW right back at you.
I remember so many of the names on this diary.
What a great way to bring us all back to purpose. Thank you so much for this thread.
Wonderful lift on a lovely spring day!
Plame, Fisa, weedy law blogs, the unfolding of the mortgage scandal, how it all culminated in our worst fears (in many ways) and we have survived it all together. Somewhere in all the difficult challenges of today we find joy, we find conflict, we find LIFE!
OMG, I forgot about EPU’d. we really do have our own language here.
I came to fdl first – through a link from Eric Alterman – I think – and discovered Christy’s thoughtful and moving posts on the then-current coal mining disaster in WV. This struck a nerve, being a WV native, as well as her wonderful writing on the subject.
I stayed, for Scooter and the Rubber Stamp Project and the Constitution and the live-blogging, and then for the community that was growing up, around dogs and cats and our personal lives and crises, at first on Saturday, then expanding with myfdl and Caturday.
This community helped me get through a long period of unemployment, encouraging me to persist, reminding me that I wasn’t worthless because I didn’t have a job, etc., etc.
There’ve been changes and people leave who I miss, not to mention those like our beloved katymine who left us through death, and more recently, mary, and others whose names escape me at the moment.
Thank you Peterr; I hope this thoughtful post gets us back on track.
That’s another way FDL is different; when it looks like we’re going to veer off, someone in the community steps up and we manage to muddle through again.
I have to go off to work for a few hours (visiting clients! what a privilege!), so haven’t read the whole thread, but I will when I get a chance.
(and yes, whatever happened to EPU himself? I get epu’d a lot lately, *g*)
OK
For us FNG’s (you military folks KNOW what this means)
Please explain. What is an EPU’d?
See perris @ 80.
EPU’d
beautiful diary for nourishing us all here. thank you all who have already forgiven. it’s holding me in an embrace that allows me to forgive as well. paraphrasing scarecrow, i have a lot of gratitude for those who’ve walked point (last night i had to google that phrase – this morning i’m making it my own!)
love for all,
gw
It was only about five years ago that I stumbled across this place, having been disenchanted with Daily Kos after lurking for a couple of days.
My, how flyme ties …
Anyhoo, I signed on here and made a comment about D capitulation and how the D party seemed to be one of appeasement …
Next day, powwow, said (in essence) that my comment had not been too shabby … but it was “in EPU-land” … well, that really shook me as I had not the vaguest notion what powwow was talking about … and I began to wonder if it was a good thing or a bad thing … kind of like mens rea … had I been guilty of some infraction? Was I, or my comment :out-of-bounds? Did I need to watch my “step”? Had I effed-up royally?
I kept a low and thoughtful profile for a while, just to see if I could figure it out …
That was back in the great Zed Zone, which was a zeducation in itself, there were very zedicated ones and those for whom the whole zedification was zed to be too much … then, we all movzed on …
One heck of a community, then, now, and tomorrow …
;~DW
Peterr, Thank you!
This place is poetry in motion.
you prolly wont hear much more about the holocaust in the Gulf,which has made me seek a new country to live in
Dolphins in Barataria Bay are severely ill, NOAA says
Published: Friday, March 23, 2012, 1:05 PM Updated: Friday, March 23, 2012, 8:13 PM
By Mark Schleifstein, The Times-Picayune
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Bottlenose dolphins in Barataria Bay are showing signs of severe ill health, according to NOAA marine mammal biologists and their local, state, federal and other research partners, NOAA announced today. Barataria Bay received heavy and prolonged exposure to oil during the 2010 Gulf spill after the Deepwater Horizon rig exploded.
The NOAA conclusion is based on the results of comprehensive physicals given to 32 live dolphins from Barataria Bay during the summer in 2011. Preliminary results show many of the dolphins were underweight, anemic, had low blood sugar and/or some symptoms of liver and lung disease. Nearly half also had abnormally low levels of the hormones that help with stress response, metabolism and immune function.
[mod note: I've trimmed down the long excerpt you posted. Please do not quote more than two paragraphs of a story that is copyrighted elsewhere. Instead, as Peterr suggested @97, either summarize it or shorten your quote, and give a link to the full story at its original source -- in this case, the story is here.]
I started coming here regularly way before Plamegate, as it filtered into my consciousness that I could get important and accurate info here about world and national events that could influence markets, and way ahead (sometimes weeks or months) of when any major media would cover uncomfortable topics. As a stock index futures trader, that was very valuable to me. Over time, I came to have feelings of affinity and affection for many participants here, who revealed themselves in posts or comments as human beings of intelligence, depth, compassion, passion, and/or good humor. So I started commenting (originally using my actual name, unsavvy but due to being an Internet virgin, and adopting different handles once or twice along the way when FDL did various reorganizations that made that seem easy and/or logical to do). The community meant a great deal to me, as I lived deep in the Georgia woods and was alone all the time except when my gf was home at night. Over time, I have developed an additional reason for being here. My whole life has been devoted to the task of trying to find truth, or at least to get as close to it as possible. Always recognizing that it is a difficult task to perform well. So, when I come here, I am exposed to many people from many different areas of insight and expertise, and I get to learn from them, sometimes by simply absorbing the expertise they share, sometimes by having a verbal back-and-forth tht starts as disagreement but ends as aggreement on a central concept. Sometimes, I just get to re-examine myself based on what others who I respect say about me. It’s all a learning process, and it is always, for me, about trying to get myself closer to the truth, and then, if possible, trying to allow others to share in the same process for their edification. And I don’t know any other place that lends itself to these purposes of mine than FDL does. Which is why this is the only place I ever comment.
Should have been, “more than FDL does.” ;-)
Nice post Peterr. Great advice for everyone.
Good rule of thumb, when commenting, is to ask yourself this:
It is easy to fall into the trap of throwing ad hominems (we all occasionally slip), when we’re dealing w/ someone we perceive as disingenuous, deceptive, etc. But I trust most in the FDL community are wise enough to draw the same conclusions I have, regardless of the venom these characters spew. Let them toss their unwarranted ad hominems, because they only make themselves look bad. The community doesn’t need me to point it out for them, by dropping to their level. For those of us who like to debate, learning this lesson takes a lot of effort. :)
Having said this, I think there is a LOT of civility already here at FDL. Most people are sincerely here to learn, inform, and challenge ideas.
There are not too many large progressive sites out there that encourage their writers/readers to open the discourse beyond: “Rush Limbaugh is ‘crazy’! Michele Bachmann said ‘this’! We need to defeat Republicans! GO team!”
FDL, unlike many others, allows people to promote third party candidates, and to discuss controversial topics that very much need to be discussed. People who value the truth (regardless of where that may lead them) need to be able to challenge one another, and ‘conventional liberal wisdom,’ and not be restrained by the narrow parameters set by the establishment (including the Democratic Party).
FDL has always offered that, and it is why it has always remained a site that I routinely return to to challenge my own ideas.
Hey- maybe not 1,000 BUT 100 it will make.
I wish this article was front paged. FDL should be proud of itself. You folks have taken a huge hit of POSITIVE credibility.
I am back to promoting you folks all over. Wait, in my case is that a bad thing? Grin.
At the risk of being EPU’d (was over at PUAC where demi linked to this-thanks, demi!), thank you Peterr for this diary and the sentiment that this blog is indeed a community, where all opinions are welcome, including dissenting ones, and civility to one another is highly valued.
I came here well before the Plame affair, can’t remember exactly how long ago, because I wanted a place to find truth, and I found it here. What I didn’t expect to find was a community of tolerant, polite and (yes) nice people who actually interacted with each other on the posts – and, I might add, very intelligent people and independent thinkers. Being extremely angry with the gov’t administration at that time, I was looking for a place to vent, and initially found TRex’s posts suitable to my liking. Then I ran across one of Christy’s posts, and the ‘niceness’ of at that post was almost too much (still being so angry). In fact I think one my first comments at FDL was that people were ‘too nice’, that I was more comfortable with the TRex posts, and those at rude pundit and WTF is is now. But I was drawn back here, and after a bit my anger mellowed out. FDL saved my sanity.
My wish is to see FDL keep growing and attracting people who believe in the common good, social justice, the Constitution, the promise of what society can aspire to, all that and more.
Recommended, Peterr! Thanks.
Got a link for that?
*g*
Seriously, though, it looks as if you’ve cut and paste the whole article there, which violates both the T-P copyright and FDLs policies about posting.
Maybe you can edit it down or summarize it, providing the link back to the T-P.
I’d love a link for that one, too!
Thanks for this, Peterr. Wonderful peace.
And thanks to everyone for the comments. A nice trip down memory lane….
Thanks for the post.
I discovered FDL through the links section at nakedcapitalism. Mainly during the Dem sellout of HCR.
FDL was the only place where I could get the straight dope on the sausage making in progress. Been here ever since.
I keep coming back because of the intelligent discussion, particularly in myFDL. That’s hard to find, especially in “progressive” circles.
DDay and TBogg are excellent too.
Thank you very much for the thoughtful reply.
I comment on a rare basis and as usual, you said it better than I could. I was happy to see my annual membership receipt in the email box yesterday and am proud to contribute to FDL in that way. I found FDL from a link on BradBlog way back when and have been a fan for years! Thanks for your great diary, Peterr, and I enjoy all the contributors here even when there are differences!
Some of you have been getting away with cussing out/ abusing anybody that doesn’t have a history FDL going back to LibbyGate.
I’ve been abused and insulted over and over again by a few regulars in particular, and everyone else has let it happen right there in the middle of public thread. I’ve had some insults said to me by a few of the regulars here a lot leftie like me did not know lefties said.
Thank you Peterr for sorting out the kerflufful? Your kind spirit sings through the words. I have been reading here since…well i think 07? I don’t know, then i was fixated on the Alaska blogs. I am sure it was ET who led me to this place of refuge. It took me a long long time to even comment. I have as yet written a diary. To be sure i will when i can keep it under a gazillion words. This crazy world is made real by all here at the lake. I cant live without fdl, every day.
I am blessed with where i live and wish to support the important community that is fdl with what meager funds i can get. I am honored to hang with you all. Bob.
This post is an attempt to ask people to dial back that kind of behavior wherever it might erupt, regardless of who it comes from and where it is aimed.
By the way… I also the only member of FDL that can prove by genetic testing that I cannot possibly be a “troll.” I’ve got Huntington Disease. Half my family has it. USA health care policy FORCES me to left in opposition.
I am up to here with the “word” TROLL. I’m sick and tired of the way it gets so carelessly tossed around Fire Dog Lake.
The primary group of offender that needs to be dialing that behavior back are some of the most regular users.
In the post, I was very specific in how I used the word, Adam, and I applied it to very specific behavior:
That’s how I used it, and I’m hoping that by calling out trollish behavior for what it is, it can be diminished.
Larue went right back to same type of divisive behavior yesterday on my diary about comment flagging abuse here after things had been calmed two days ago after the big blow up then.
Larue-Clique Member Since LibbyGate March 22nd, 2012 at 10:14 am 22
In response to Adam503 @ 18
Shinedown’s “Bully” came on my Pandora literally as I was typing this. That gets shared.
Agreed. I don’t come here to be politically correct and endure comments that express willful ignorance, stupidity, misinformation, and lies. If that’s what one desires they can always choose the lemming blogs like Daily Kos or Red State. Words weren’t meant to be ignored but utilized as one sees fit. If someone is offended by certain words, perhaps that is the point. “Sticks and stones …….”
i came during libby trial too. I think I came when the jury was out and i was very interested in the verdict so i kept googlin “Libby verdict” and comming up with nothing time after time (because there wasn’t one yet, duh) but i kept googling and scrolling and came here and pretty much been here since. the Libby trial was SOOOOOO important and was getting short shrift in the MSM and whenever it did get covered they felt they had to give equal time to GOP bullshit trashing of Mr.Wilson & Ms. Plame.and the Dem pushback was lame at best. so i keept coming here. i haven’t read every comment even most comments here but will address something. sure, there are snotty people as well as people who can, at times, be snotty. some know it alls. I don’t find that true of any of the front pagers but i could be forgetting someone–but anyway, geez, just ignore it. it’s not gonna change. they may be different away from a computer. who knows? i mean, just speaking for myself, no way I would still be here if those people were in any way representative. this is just a VERY informative place. i mean, all day long. Links? the best. wish more people would come. wouldn’t be so many ignoramusus out there.
it’s a baby & bathwater kinda thing with me. a few rude people aren’t gonna spoil the broth as long as you don’t let ‘em. (thank god there’s no rule against poor use of metaphors). besides, you can always engage them if you don’t mind banging your head on the desk for a bit. if they aren’t called out much, i think it’s only because people don’t give a shit what they say-which is as it should be.
Underneath “Per Mz. Hamsher” in the original comment was a link to Jane’s post outlining the changes to the FDL Comment Moderation system that were made last May.
From that post:
Emphasis added by me.
Speaking for myself, and speaking in general and not with regard to any situations or posts that people have mentioned earlier in these comments, bullying has no place here. That’s trollish behavior that does not belong and ought to result in banishment.
Adam,
While I should not be the one to raise this, given the history of antagonism between you and me over issues related to, well, you know: if you think you are being baited or abused, the best way to deal with it is don’t rise to it.
We carry our prejudices and baggage everywhere, including this place. It’s no wonder that they tend to splash into each other, and they can make a toxic mix.
Just be bigger. I know the irresistible pull to climb down into that mud, and it turns out that, like a nicotine fit, the urge passes.
On another topic, how are you doing?
That is from two days back, and since then, lots of people are making genuine efforts to improve the tone and value of our conversations. Not everyone is there, not everyone can get there, but I ask your help in giving it a chance to work. This will seem strange, but you actually remind me of each other, and in another framework, you both might be the guys walking point, he protecting on the right, you on the left, both protecting the community behind you, but never shooting each other. Acknowledge his honor and sooner or later he will see yours. Worth a try.
What newtonsur said. Hope you are well.
even that, if i recall correctly, was met with some cries of “censorship.” which, of course, were not censored. hey, what are we fighting about? never mind. i’m not a fighter. now, name calling is right up my alley……..
and i told Suze that you did an awful job hosting LLN, but that was only to cheer her up.
Adam –
Please know that the people you are engaging with are some of the best sorts of people I have met.
I’m seeing people reach out to you, in a way that’s possibly helpful to you, but also to the many commenters and lurkers here.
The point of this post was to heal.
Repeal or repent. It’s always an option. But, at this site, I believe the main purpose is to inform.
I think we’ve all heard you here. Your point has been made.
I sincerely hope that you read these comments sent o you in the sinceres way that I perceive them to be sent.
Cuppa tea. Pizza, maybe.
We all find comfort in different ways and I hope you can find a way that helps you have a positive affect.
In late and only scanned the later comments.
Thank you for this post Peterr. I came looking for common values and have found community. Thanks to each and everyone who makes it so. You are all precious to me.
In 2004, as an individual who was thoroughly disgusted with the DLC-dominated Democratic Party, I joined Daily Kos. This was in the days when Markos Moulitsas spoke of “crashing the gates” and electing “more and better Democrats.”
Two and a half years ago, I stopped posting comments on dKos and started posting here after it became clear that dKos was becoming a communications and fund-raising arm of Organizing for America and the Democratic National Committee.
She will be most pleased :-)
John Chandley/Scarecrow said two days ago the FDL comment flagging system was changing because of what that big Calvan banning mess had shown. Larue knew what John Chandley had said and when he said it. Larue had been on the thread John Chandley said it on all day. I’m forced to repost on another thread what Larue had read the day before…
John Chandley said people went so overboard flagging comments, you guys broke the system. New rules are required that do not require a dozen FDL moderators to handle the massive comment flag traffic.
Unfortunately, I doubt there will be little healing at FDL until you guys stop flinging the word “troll” at each other.
Nevertheless, I wish you the best of luck.
Please read my actual comment. I did not say we were changing anything, Nor did I suggest any change was related to Mr. Cavlans matter. I didn’t say people were overusing flags or that the system had broken down. You’ve attributed to me these points I didn’t say, apparently misinterpreting what I actually said. Im sorry if what i said was unclear, so if this misunderstanding is the problem, perhaps you can reconsider.
I thought I had been doing pretty well, most of the movement disorder symptoms had been appearing as I was falling asleep and waking up. I recently found out that my long history of acid reflux is directly related to the HD. All caused by the weakening in what’s involved in the swallowing process. I thought it would be coming up when I was way older.
Otherwise… still trying people to take a serious look at the all the new research appearing in neurology/brain science recently showing how much of human thinking is shaped by beliefs, not scientific facts.
Scarecrow, as a point of order, it’s been mentioned in this ongoing dialogue, that the flagging of a comment as inappropriate is only for spam. Can you put some clarifcation to that, please?
Thank you for all of your patience and kindness in this matter.
The FDL current flgging system allows allowed member comments to be flagged just because people don’t like them. You’re okay with people flagging comments just because they don’t like them?
I resemble that remark.
Yes, the rules apply to me too. But I’m just a rebel … lone wolf.
And I need to be better than I have been lately, even with thread hijackers who don’t deserve better.
I am going to try to get something more definitive than my understanding. For starters, I don’t believe the comment flag button is there exclusively for what one calls spam. There are other possible categories of inappropriate comments , e.g. Personally attacking or defaming the poster or another commenter, and trying to talk about how to thnk about that is one of the points of Peterrs post. I’ll find out more and get back.
I promise to stop my Thread-Stakling, which violates all the rules of the internets.
TBogg, You are back on my Respected Persons List. Being rebellious by nature, I ain’t too far removed from you. Prolly, just older … no lest feisty, however, than I’ve ever been, I, most certainly, am NOT … “sweet”, just curmudgeonly, at best … I … mean it.
(Give ‘em heaven, it’ll confuse ‘em, no end …)
Your appearance here is much appreciated.
So … I’m gonna use “that” word with you …
Namaste
;~DW
Oldnslow–
Thanks for your post; saves me the composition efforts. It’s ever so easy to write “ditto” (which is one of the reasons I stayed at the Lake after discovering it years ago.)
Demi . . .
Here is a post Jane wrote on the new system when it was implemented last year.
http://my.firedoglake.com/Jane-2/2011/05/14/fdl-comment-moderation-2-0/
And here are the relevant quotes . . .
While we’ll still be screening comments for spam and inappropriate language, we’ll also be looking at the number of times a comment or a post gets flagged by members of the community, and factoring that into whether or not someone is appropriate content. It doesn’t mean that a group of people can gang up on one diarist or commenter and get them booted, but it does mean that if something upsets a lot of people, we’ll know that and can take it into account when making those decisions.
But that system depends on your participation. So if you see something you think has crossed the line, let us know. Disagreeing with someone’s respectfully expressed political perspective is not sufficient reason to flag a comment as inappropriate. Eliminationist rhetoric, threats, hate speech and free iPhone spam are.
There’s a vast gray area between the two polarities, however, and as a community we make decisions about what is appropriate and what is not every day. If those standards were static the job would be easy, but because of the fluid nature of language and the evolving ways people communicate online, they change all the time.
Scarecrow… the post Frank33 just made is here is directed at me because I flagged two posts Frank33 made here yesterday for thread-stalking Alan Maki.
Frank33 clearly put that post right here because Scarecrow just just cleared Frank33 (and other FDL members) thread-stalk people all over FDL.
Ah, there’s an oldie-but-baddie that you and I have confronted!
I have not been reading the research on HD (and I am poorer for it), but I would hazard a guess that stem cell therapy has to be at or near the front. Is there anything new?
TBogg, is no longer just a Somewhat Popular Blogger. He is A Front Pager No Less.
I didn’t know there was a policy re: flagging. I interpreted flagging to be a reasonable response to a comment I find outrageous. I did not think that by flagging a comment the issuer of the flagged comment would be censored; but expected that if lots of flags resulted, a moderator would look a bit deeper. (Personally, I have used the ‘flag’ only 2 or 3 times in all the years I’ve been here–and find it a great substitute for pounding on the computer, and as satisfying as throwing socks at the teevee machine.)
I have been cleared!
Mod, Mod, FDL love-fest thread is being hijacked by stem cell therapy!
Calling Petrocelli, stat!
We need an immediate return to zen!
Scarecrow AKA John the Mod.
Serious question. Since some of us are pretty much Free Speech purists, do you take into account that some here have been using the flagging system simply in an attempt to attack those in whom there is political disagreement?
Add to that that some of us do not flag others at all. As a matter of principle. For example, I have never flagged anyone. Ever. I have contacted you once after our conversation about an individual.
Some of us intend to keep it that way. I know I will.
what is hd, adam? sorry to hear you are not well.
And don’t you forget it, Frank33!
Truth IS truth. Unless the political class get ahold of it …
DW
You a Scientologist, is ya, Frank?
Never woulda magined …
Well, I guess stranger things …
;~DW
I was where most people was focusing their attention watching for a big breakthrough, but something way more promising MAY have fallen out the sky… or North…
ScienceDaily (Feb. 13, 2012) — Medical researchers at the University of Alberta have discovered a promising new therapy for Huntington disease that restores lost motor skills and may delay or stop the progression of the disease, says researcher Simonetta Sipione.
The therapy is based on lab model tests and, because it uses a molecule already in clinical trials for other diseases, it could be used in a trial for Huntington disease within the next two years.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/02/120213154100.htm
I capitalize MAY because science journalism has devolved into printing researcher press releases verbatim. Scientists rarely have a hand what gets released by the public relations department, and usually wrong. I always bring a list of these to my neurologist appointments with me. My next one is in June. Not one has been correct yet. Keep hoping though.
Book Salon up with John Horgan’s The End of War hosted by Scott Horton
What? No. But I just got out of the FDL Doghouse, so I will be positive. Great Post as all of Peterr’s are. Great comments. And if you are in the doghouse, the FDL doghouse is the one to be in. I wonder who else was in the doghouse with me and got cleared…
Thank you, Scarecrow, so much.
In my mind, I thought I remembered Jane spelling it out.
You’re a doll.
Best thoughts going out to you, Jane and all of the FDL Staff.
Mean it, Big Time.
Huntington’s Disease. Geez, I haven’t hit you guys up. How’d that happen?
Give generously. Give often. Give generously often.
I am not sure which is better the original post or the comment thread. Thank you Peterr.
I have been here since, I think, ’07. But don’t hold me to it, since linear time and I are often not on speaking terms.
I cannot remember just how I stumbled in, but I kept returning. The MSM is abysmal and FDL … well what can I say. I have been deeply appreciative of all that I have learned, and been exposed to, and truly amazed at how quickly people can come up with a link in the comments.
I seldom comment, whether on the “interwebs” or in person, unless I am convinced that I have something pertinent to add to the discussion. And in the company of those who are at FDL, that means almost everything is covered – even the “devil’s advocate” positions.
The last few days as the kerfuffle unfolded, I personally considered it to be a good thing. Unpleasant, perhaps, but isn’t it the friction that polishes the stone?
Thank you, Peterr, for your post and for all these comments.
Yes, TBogg, and not just lately. How does it work in your mind that you can say anything rude or nasty to anybody, tell them to shut-up, die in a fire, or get killed by drone-strike (sound familiar?), but can also roll yourself up like a hedgehog and ban anybody who is out-arguing you, or giving you back some of your own scatological medicine? Speaking of which, am I still banned from your site, where I have tried, every few months, to counter some of your pro-Obama front-page stuff with some arguments showing why lesser-evilism is a failed strategy that we can no longer afford? I’m taking this opportunity to ask these serious questions here on neutral ground, and I’m being respectful about it. I would honestly like to know if you are the lone lone wolf who lives by rules different than the rest of us must obey, even when we enter onto your own home threads.
First, I’m not a Mod, thus not John the Mod. My kids would find the term ludicrous when applied to me, and real, experienced mods would likely be insulted.
Secondly, I don’t “clear people” whose comment may be in moderation. not my job.
Third, I read Jane’s post to suggest there is a grey area about what constitutes inappropriate comment, and the number of flags is not definitive. It’s merely a factor in deciding whether something needs to be looked at and is truly something that should be removed or reinstated.
Fourth. I don’t know how one determines any ones motives in flagging a comment or post. So as I understand this, the flagging is there as a safeguard, but we hope it is used judiciously, the community expresses a view via many flags, but the final call is made by the MyFDL administrator, based on their understanding of where the blog and community standards are. Again, this is just my notion of how this works. I doubt anything more definitive is possible or would change much.
So a justifiably offended or unfairly biased group of people can’t get any post or comment permanently removed, but the flagging can result in someone at FDL having to make a call. It’s judgmental, but I don’t know how it could be otherwise once you say, some things are okay and others are not.
Once a blog undertakes to allow comments, but not all comments, it has to make these judgments. In the final analysis, it will be seen as fair or not, and people will vote with their clicks and stay or go elsewhere. again, this is my understanding, and there are experienced people on this thread who may enlighten us further if I’m wrong.
I anticipate a response from you along the lines of, “I’m just doing snark,” but that won’t fly in light of how very damn serious you get as soon as anybody suggests withholding their vote from Obama So, can you give a coherent response without resorting to that?
iirc, i’d been a regular reader of tpm and they linked over to here and i moved over here. that was before tpm went lame. don’t remember how many years ago. it might have been soon after libby trial. i stayed here because the comments were so much richer and there was a camaraderie that i enjoyed. i spent many hours here daily for many years, but not having the thickest skin and not enjoying arrogance or harshness from some front pagers and some commenters, i’ve spent much less time lately. there are some front pagers and diarists i never read and and the occasional commenter i skip.
i’ve particularly avidly followed the posts and diaries on the ships to gaza, on bradley manning and on occupy.
You’re NOT older. And, TBogg, I am also naturally rebellious, but I’d rather argue for my opinions with abusive language, and I never use it unless I am attacked first. I’d rather be at peace with you and argue civilly.
A long time lurker. I love Jane and a few of the front pagers. One of the few sane places on the net. Conflict is inevitable, and there will always be some of those…..
Hope this place never changes.
One-handed scroll, babe!
Works for me too, even with two hands. :)
Correction, DW is older. Not by that much, though lol.
and also avidly followed fukusima coverage.
hi girl!
Babe!
Just waiting for Someone to choose the color he wants me to paint his office.
(fingers drumming desk.)
aha! just googled it. that looks like something very difficult to bear.
((((adam))))
Ah Ha! Another great clarification.
This has indeed been a moment in time for Ah Ha’s.
you can always come over here and paint my living room a golden yellow. all the walls are cream colored.
We’re looking at something called Sandstone 270E-2.
But, my kitchen is Eggnog, which is kind of yellow. :)
Sorry to thread-jack.
Shutting up, now.
Hey GW and demi..
I have been here since07.. My oldest told me about it and have never left..
Thanks Peterr for this wonderful soul searching by Our community! It is very healthy for all of us.. And yes I did not come here for TROLLS!
And I will be staying here as this is certainly the best place for the truth in the NEWS and all the great commentor’s.. The discussions are enlightening and at LLN is just plain ass fun!! Love this place!
Peterr, thank you so much for this post. A community, just like a democracy, requires tending and I’ve been careless in my “tending”.
Because I live outside the US, I’ve never contributed a lot to the conversation here, and in recent years almost not at all, even though I visit regularly. But there are other ways that those of us who don’t participate much or at all in the comments can still contribute.
Thank you for the reminder to recommend thoughtful diaries, for example, or maybe flag a comment to help prevent a problem from escalating. (I’ve interpreted the flagging system the way otchmoson @140 has.) We are very lucky to have such a richly diverse group of writing talent. It would be a huge loss, if any of them decided to stop posting because of abusive comments.
Years ago, TRex (an early poster here) would invite readers to de-lurk from time to time and one time he compared it to “leaving a pebble”, the way visitors to a jewish gravesite do, to show that they’d been there.
It’s important to me that I show “I’m here” and a member of this community, even if I rarely comment. Even if I just say thank you Peterr for a great post. Or just recommend a diary.
(By the way, does anyone know what happened to Waccamaw? If you’re reading, Waccamaw, I just want to let you know that I miss chatting with you in the mornings here and I hope you’re well!)
“Age” is relative, rc, it being merely a question of time …
And NONE of us have enough of “that” to squander either that “time” or goodwill … but that, is just and merely MY prejudice, and everyone’s relative mileage may vary …
DW
I can’t remember when I came here, but it was AFTER the Libby trial, but still probably several years ago. Came here via a link from somewhere, possibly TPM in its earlier incarnation. Christy was still here, and TRex and TexasBetsy.
We discussed EPU’d, now does anyone remember ZED?
Oh and I do remember dear Katymine….and QuakerGirl.
hi guy!
the number 200 is beckoning to us.
Just a thought.
Grin.
I really, really love this.
iirc DW wrote some musings on zed further up the thread.
Oops. One of my favorite FDL-isms is “Preview is your friend!” When I wrote “even though I visit regularly”, I meant “even though I visit FDL regularly”! (I don’t get to visit the States too often.)
welome back, michael!
so far, i’ve only flagged advertising spammers, but, given recent discussions, i may start flagging people who are creating anti-community by being harsh and arrogant. this isn’t directed at you, just coming from the discussions around your banning.
Realitychecker “…My whole life has been devoted to the task of trying to find truth, or at least to get as close to it as possible. Always recognizing that it is a difficult task to perform well…”
I had this genetic genetic brain disorder dropped in my lap in my early 40′s. I was raised mostly by Mom and Grandmother after my parents split when I was one. My dad’s side has the HD. You re-analyze every thought that ever travelled through your skull. I had read a bunch of meditation books before, but never actually done any mediation all this fell in my lap. Getting more serious about mindfulness and mediation was a wise choice. I’m only breathing mediatation and mindfulness. Little too much recovering Catholic for any chanting practices, but it’s really been helpful for for getting a real strong sense of everything going on in our own heads.
Oops must have missed that. I recall EPU but not zed. Oh well.
Well, msmolly, I nevah zed much of anything very profound about it, and there have been many much zedder accounts of zedactly what it all meant at zed time. Some have discussed its zedimology and others were more concerned with it in a zedimental fashion …
But it was all I could come up with in zedsh a short time.
;~DW
Ain’t there no concerned denizedzens of the Lake out there who might lend a comment or two … to get this thing up to a respectable two hunnert?
DW
Sorry, I guess I must have been in the bathroom too long – did I miss something?
I’ll do my part.
I came to FDL a number of years ago – not as a member but because of a blogpost by Ms. Hamsher at HuffingtonPost. I was immediately attracted to the FDL community because of the superb quality of the bloggers and commenters. I didn’t join the community until just a few years ago. I am a lurker because my computer skills and writing ability doesn’t come up to the standards one should expect of someone who posts at FDL. I dearly love this place because of the diversity of opinion and the community’s acceptance, and tolerance, of those with whom we disagree.
So, thank you Peterr for such a fine diary – your timing is superb, considering all that has transpired here of late.
Let me share with you a video of Perla Batalla performing Leonard Cohen’s Dance me to the End of Love in Spanish.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E25ZTfuMpIA
Thank you FDL!
Not really, flatulus, so long as you always remember that today’s young shits become tomorrow’s old farts …
I saw that once proudly inscribed on a bathroom wall, right above the light/fan switch.
;~DW
Et tu, flatulus?
It’s from Kennedy’s 1963 “Remarks at Amherst College”. I sent it to my daughter when she was feeling down about choosing an art career instead of something “practical”.
http://www.arts.gov/about/Kennedy.html
Nice post.
I have found this to be a place which shares my views.
I feel that finally the rest of America is starting to realize how Reagan put us on the path of destruction. I suppose the 2000 elections and Bush were the turning point for many, but there are many. many people in America who still will go to their graves blind to what is now the very obvious truth.
Unfortunately, I have come to the conclusion that we are losing the battle for our country. That even though the naked welding of absolute power in our government and on Wall St is so ugly and brutal, they will believe everything they are told despite being surrounded by the truth.
Not much more to contribute upon my return (will note that rainy morning gave way to gorgeous cloudless sunny afternoon by the time I was driving back), except –
one can still find “zed!” or “zed?” posts at Late Late Night. Less than there used to be…got kinda old after awhile, but every once in awhile, it’s fun.
I see a number of names (or nyms) here that have on one occasion or another ticked me off with some post I took amiss…but nobody I would boot out, had I the power. (that’s supposed to trigger a smile).
I am impressed with the efforts being made to be reasonable, fair, and calm today.
One other tiny suggestion: I know that using emoticons can feel silly for an adult, but I use them (sparingly) because so many of the kerfuffles seems to arise because a post doesn’t read quite the same to a reader as the writer of it heard it in their head. (I’m not speaking of full posts, articles, authored pieces, but posts, replies, numbered in a thread, okay?).
I know I often whip off a post quickly, knowing exactly what I mean, but not realizing until I read it back that what’s in my head didn’t quite make it onto the page, and could be misunderstood.
We’re all bound to offend one another from time to time, because we are a group of folks who take things seriously, and often, want desperately to persuade someone of the importance of a topic or issue.
We gotta forgive each other, and be willing to apologize.
(See Peterr’s later thread today about Judge Fred Biery’s lovely order to warring parties to offer and accept apologies as part of a settlement).
You need to stop in at the Lakeside Diner, it opens early every weekday morning, GlenJo and get a cuppa Southern Dragon to go, says right at the end:
No war but class war!
Never Give Up!!!
;~DW
I cannot remember my first trip here, but I do know I’ve never left. Not for a day. The writing of TRex made me laugh ’til I almost wet myself while Emptywheel would leave me aghast at the number of posts she’d put out in an afternoon. Once I needed a great question to ask Arlen Specter at his yearly townhall and CHS provided me with one right here in a comment thread and it was a doozy, too. FDL is just a wonderful place and it reflects the fight, knowledge, spirit and caring of one Jane Hamsher.
The coffee, of late, has been Blue Dragon from Yellowsnapdragon’s coffee shop, accompanied by a sticky bun Demi keeps putting in her pocket. LOL.
I came here shortly before the Libby trial started, following some friends from Making Light.
I found the community convivial, and that it, like science fiction fandom, was and is a living breathing fountain of knowledge and compassion.
I do not expect to agree with everyone at FDL — but I will defend to the death their right to express their views and opinions even when they do not concur with mine.
“…we few, we happy few, this band of brothers…”
Blessed be.
I can throw in one more comment…adding…
Thanks to pfifferling for the Leonard Cohen. Dance Me To The End of Love made me cry. Real tears.
demi check out the “CivilWars” version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ph1p_LsAA4c
Got hooked on them and so has J… We just love these two!!!
Dang we need to reach 200 please help!!
Yea, help!
By golly, I gets some of them dragons confused, msmolly.
So, the Blonde-Bombshell’s been making off with the stickies?
No wonder there ain’t none left by the time I get back from driving my youngest to school.
Of late, I don’t even get to do a drive-by until most of the crowd has dispersed to their various and sundry endeavors, speaking of which, I haven’t seen Popeye99 around the premises, recently, have you seen him about?
I recall one night when Ludwig, demi, and I, finding the Diner kind of empty, talked up all kinds of things … did you know that place is open all night long, but ya got to serve yourself and clean up any messes and outen the lights?
Of course, all of SD’s “ventures”, the Diner, Pull up a Cat, and Marx at Noon (or shortly thereafter) seem to do a thrivin’ busyness, I’ve noted … must be the management … well, and the the folks that show up.
Quite a community here, all in all …
;~DW
Why lookit that, two hunnert!!
;~DW
Thank you for writing this, PeterR.
I used to frequent another blog that had news from The Nation, Mother Jones, and a few others that dealt in the Truth. Someone responded to a comment of mine asking whether I was the Pat (or one of those) who was often commenting on FDL. I wasn’t but that remark piqued my curiosity, so I came here and never left. That was while Rehnquist was the Chief Justice or shortly after.
At that time Christy, Pach, TRex were here. As for the posters, I could never pick a favorite. They’re all great. The commenters have made this a genuine, friendly and caring community. I read almost every post but usually well after it’s posted, so I don’t comment much because someone already wrote what I would have, usually better!! Plus EPU’d.
A few years ago we had a Dem Club – since disbanded – and someone new brought up the subject of a Constitutional Marriage Amendment. The discussion got quite heated. I suggested we amend our by-laws to add a Manners Amendment. Yes, we can disagree without being disagreeable.
Thank you again PeterR and Jane and the whole crew too for giving us this space.
Just because..
Hey DW and pupses, been away all day and just catching up. Emailed with popeye today. I don’t think he would mind me saying that he needs to concentrate on his health right now. His MS is giving him great difficulty and he is trying some different management options. He is reading and spending time with his family and does stop by to see what is happening here, but is just not doing a lot of commenting right now.
*waving to you if you are out there!*
Hey OmAli!
Hey, Popeye! Take care of yourself! Sending the usual healing vibes…well, okay, some better healing vibes!
DWBartoo – are you Pennsylvania Dutch? “outen the lights…”
don’t hear that too much!
I be here, *wavin’ right back*! Thanks for the Popeye update and send along my very best thoughts the next time you converse with him, please. OmAli …
;~DW
The last time I saw his fonts, he had changed to just “popeye”.
(In case you’re looking for him.)
Will do, thanks guys! Gotta run have dinner, I’ll check back later.
your adoring
ohmmmm
absolutely. That was a genocide. (Not to mention blocking reporters, we were through the looking glass at that point.) It was extremely traumatizing to me and I couldn’t deal with it. I am a diver and I love the ocean. Coming from the Hawaiian Islands, a place of such natural wonders and exquisite beauty, how could Obama let them do that? Of all things he has done, I am most resentful over that, as well as his support for the Honduran coup.
I’m new, first lake input. Even the homeless recognize ‘class’. FDL’s adults apparently are training the classless adolescence. Can we exile the untrainable trolls like they did in Athens?
No, tejanarusa, me “Duthch” dates back, mostly, to New Amsterdam times, but I have lived near the Amish and the Mennonites several different times in my life. Have known a number of them quite well, and always have respected their moral compasses and sense of community … in fact, I’ve known several who left the “fold” and respect them in their own rights very much as well.
I even know how to rid up a room … of course, down here, in Pittsburgh, I was still struck “funny” (I almost laughed) when a friend asked me to “Ride” him over to the store and back home again.
Took me while, when I lived in Cambridge, Mass. to figure out what a “shopping trolley” was … and “tonic” … then there are “frappes” and the question of “grinders and subs” …
And, down in Georgia, “poot” raised a hoot …
Can’t hep myself, I just kind of run into those things, ever hear of a “Ramp Festival”? It’s a wild garlic party …
Well, I could go on, but I zedder stop, I wreck on …
;~DW
Molly, if you check back in, I thought of you this am.
Was driving down the hill (to get dog food), was overcast and chilly, wearing jeans and sweat shirt. Saw a guy walking wearing shorts and a s/s t-shirt. I almost pulled over and asked him if he was from South Bend. Ha!
Oh, DW – all your geographic references, except Georgia, are familiar. I’m a WV native…ramp festivals everywhere there.
Loooove me some frappes…better than milkshakes, which I never liked til I discovered frappes.
But, when I lived in Pgh, it was “redd up a room”, or the table, or whatever.
(my mom is the PA Dutchman in the family–her mother was fluent in “Dutch.” But WWI put an end to that.)
Yes, the other “y” he used to use, seemed to just slide right by, sight unseen, by most folks eyeballs, demi.
What do you do with all them stickies?
Hope things are quiet on the home front and that the prodigal ones have found safe harbor … and that you have found peace … and a bit more quiet … and that the animals are “adjusting” to the changes …
So, how ya doin’, anyhoo?
That was a great discussion that night, btw, methot.
;~DW
David, dear, you crack me up.
My husband is a mostly very quiet guy. Until you ask him something technical.
When I first met him, his teenage sons told me that if I don’t want to hear a long lecture, not to ask him anything.
But, you know, I could just sit and listen to his deep bass voice all day long. I just put a patient face on and drift off. (Don’t tell him that, though.)
Thank you for sharing what you have about Popeye. I am posting this link, because this woman, an MS sufferer herself, who is also a neurologist and as a result of her own walk with this disease, a researcher. I thought it significant. I am not a neurologist, though I do my own fair share with neurology, and thought it significant. At the very least, it is worthy of deeper investigation.
Having had my own walk with a chronic condition, being able to exert any control over any aspect, has had side benefits I could not imagine initially. And who knows … she may be onto something – big.
Hope the link works.
I don’t know which harbor they have found, but I just have to imagine everything’s okay. I told my daughter, Don’t have any babies, they’ll just break your heart. Get another dog, I told her.
It was a very hard week for me. As for the critters, Brindle is happy that Pop’s home. Just days after the prodigal one left, the mister went out of town on business and the dog grew very depressed. I mean, c’mon.
I guess Brindle is just a big sensitive lug.
I guess I just love big sensitive lugs.
Pick a star in the sky tonight and think on the wonderful emotions we’ve all been through. And, I’ll do the same.
OH, shoot… no link. Let me try again.
http://youtu.be/KLjgBLwH3
Yep, In the Pitts its, “redd up the room” …
And I even learned how to “pak a caah in the back yaahd” up there in the Bay State.
You mean to say, to tell me, that you don’t know what “poot” means?
It’s a bodily function akin to the difference between perspiring and sweating, the one genteel the other … less so.
Women perspire and men sweat …
A gentlewoman “poots” and a man, even a young one … even a gentle one is said to “pass air” by a different word …
My delicate sensibilities and my concern for yours preclude any more graphic description, my dear tejananrusa.
By the way, I know what your “handle” means, thanks to Margaret, who I’ve missed of late, might you be willing to tell me how you came came or chose to possess it?
DW
I looked HD up quite some time ago when I learned that you had it. I have my own share of physical issues, am currently on SSI Disability, in fact, but that seems like very little to bear compared to what you have to deal with. You have my sympathies, FWIW, and also my understanding (and even my tacit permission, personally speaking) if you need to get cranky or unfocused from time to time. You just keep on keeping on, amigo, and do the best you can. Ultimately, that is all any of us can aim for.
I am a woodworker by trade. Though i wear many hat’s. I support our local occupy. I believe we should keep our tools sharp. One way to keep your tool sharp is to be with and support the actions of this great group of people here. Thank you all for making me smile. We broke 30F today so spring is in the air-can i get a hallelujah.
David – PS….was yesterday your birthday? Goodness, I surely do know a lot of Arians. :)
Is that what you meant by launch date?
I’m turning 60 next week, so the BBS comment made me smile. Again.
Thanks, as always, for being DW.
Welcome and come often and speak your mind.
Anybody who can come up with, “Pull up a Cat”, has got my sincere appreciation and most profound respect, demi, That one has left me in stitches ever since you shared it … and I have tossed it into every possible “situation” I encounter. And I would appreciate it if you might share that with your mister.
I have a feeling that there is a profound and very deep sense of rollicking humor behind and around that technical grasp.
Well, the kids certainly try one’s soul, but, by and large, I really would not have done anything differently if it meant that I would not have had “that” experience … still ongoing … of course. I practice supporting … and letting go, makes ‘em think I “understand”, even if I don’t, and might not be able to …
I’m certain you catch my “drift”, demi.
DW
Thank you so much, walkinboots. I am still having trouble with the link, would you mind trying it again? I’ll be sure to alert popeye. Yes, having some measure of control makes a world of difference. I’m hoping that your own health continues to improve and that this information will be of help to popeye and others. Thank you again.
Aye, a double Aries I be.
I only pretend to sweetness (yuck) and light …
I am a warrior, at heart, and by nature, but try to be polite and speak softly.
A dreamer I am.
I “see” and “feel” a better world, and seek the words to share that vision and sense with those who dream the same dream … and know the same feelings, the same “awareness”, many are “here” …
I value intelligence, appreciate true beauty, and do not measure time on a dial.
Courage, reason, tolerance, and understanding matter to me, and I am a most lucky and fortunate being, and being accepted in such a place as Firedoglake, is full and essential proof of that to me soul.
You will note that I am not shy?
Nor tongue-tied?
;~DW
I started coming here, I’m not sure when. I kept following links to FDL and eventually had a DUH moment and just parked myself here. I don’t comment much, except when something is local like the BP mess or that poor child Trayvon. Well, okay, when I started working nights I started hanging out on LLN (now Suz knows how she ended up with me). EW’s intellectual firepower and Cynthia’s reporting on the mortgage mess drew me in. Not that DD’s reporting on the mortgage mess is anything but stellar, but Cynthia being an on the ground lawyer got me hooked, after being in and out for a few years.
HI Demi. Yes, I checked back. Funny that!
Welcome, hermit! Don’t be a stranger.
Now that you’ve de-lurked, and no matter your answer, I’ve got to ask: “why are you here?”
*g*
Drats. I will try again. However should it not work, it is a TED production, by a Dr. Terry Wahls, entitled “Minding Your Mitochondria”. She is really quite something. And her standing on the stage giving this talk, when once she was severely impacted and in a wheel chair, and going down fast, with no medications helping just adds weight. So here goes, fingers crossed:
http://www.youtube.com/embed/KLjgBLwH3Wc?rel=0“
My health, (thank you for asking) has been enormously assisted by a Chinese Medicine doctor. I went for something else, and somehow, he fixed the other big issue, that main stream medicine said “good luck” to.
Hermit, welcome. Please come back often.
I remember my first several comments here, and the fact that nobody replied. It took awhile before I realized that conversation on a blog ebbs and flows and sometimes nobody responds to a comment and other times a comment sparks lots of conversation. So please don’t ever feel ignored if some comments aren’t responded to.
Yes, redd is what I remember too. I grew up in Ohio, and had relatives in northeastern Ohio where there was considerable PA Dutch influence, as well as Amish.
I could add another language thing: is that soft drink “pop” or “soda”? And here in NW Indiana, when you order “a diet” in a restaurant, they know you mean a diet Coke (or Pepsi).
Third time was the charm! I’ll send this to popeye right now, thanks again!
I shared that video with Popeye a few weeks ago. He had heard of the diet therapy and was trying some things with diet and vitamins.
See my 234, OmAli…
Oh, look at you.
You’ve been banned? Congrats, that seems to have been your goal.
I hear you on that. I am workin the night shift right now and i cant really catch LLN and i get off at 7am so by then i am at #100+ for the diner. I am just waking when the evening folks are just getting fired up,and i am two cups of coffee behind. But so it goes and i read what i can. If i cant find the time to peruse the other sites i do i am good with what i get here at home.
Please please do not start up again. TYVM.
Ah, I see. Well, those things may take some time, so hopefully there will some future benefit…
You guys are the greatest :)
I’m not exactly sure when I started coming here — I suppose I could follow the trail of bread crumbs back to my first post, but I’m not that ambitious.
I used to spend a fair amount of time over at Daily Kos, but left shortly after Mr. Kos unleashed his infamous (at least to me) “Fuck Ralph Nader and fuck anyone who voted for him” comment. I will not return the compliment to Mr. Kos, as I believe we need to work together with people as much as possible, but, as someone who reluctantly voted for Nader in 2008 because I could tell (courtesy of Obama’s flip-flop on retroactive immunity for the telcos) that BHO was a fraud, I did not appreciate the remark of Mr. Kos.
Somehow, I wound up here. Don’t remember the exact process by which that happened, either.
What I found here is a bunch of intelligent, thoughtful, and sometimes delightfully snarky people who, under normal circumstances, would be liberal Democrats, but realize that the Democratic Party was bought off a while back. Not everyone holds that opinion, of course, but the lack of unanimity is a plus, too.
I like the original reporting on issues like the Scooter Libby trial, Bradley Manning, torture, and other things near and dear to my heart. I come here to learn what’s happening (won’t learn that in the corporate media), what action I need to take and to hang around the water cooler with my intellectual and moral peers.
My only constructive criticism is that we seem to be a pretty honky bunch. It would be nice to see more of the African-
American, Hispanic, Asian-American and Native American points of view represented here.
Actually, I have one other criticism: As I mentioned to the lady who called to thank me for my membership, we need to have regional, and, in big cities, local meetups. At some point, BHO or his successor will make use of the internet kill switch, and when that happens, we need to have a way of staying in touch with each other.
That being said, this is really my political home on the internet, and I’m glad to be here.
The conversation tapers off, but the Diner seems to be open 24-hours, homeroid. Several of us check back during the day and start conversations.
I see that msmolly mentioned the Diner staying open late. Yes, people pop in all during the afternoon and evening some days. Don’t feel like you need to read all the comments before joining in, or come by later and toss out a new idea or link. We’ll save you a seat *g*
And I’m sure Demi will save you a sticky bun (please ignore the pocket fuzz).
Pfiff!
Wie gehts?
LOL!
Goodnight y’all. Sleep tight.
Oh, did you? I am so glad. It was quite the video, wasn’t it? Very good speaker, and IMHO, she pointed to that which is, maybe, lacking in our point of view, or rather in the point of view of main stream medicine.
In my own walk with a chronic condition (which appears to now be “magically” cured by a Chinese Medicine doctor, after a decade of suffering from it) that main stream medicine, like every other system in our culture, is really broken. Too focused on profit such that the purpose of the system has been lost.
Isn’t it fantastic, msmolly, that in this venue, the care and concern for one another is obvious? That is one of things about FDL that I have always appreciated. What a friend you have been, indeed.
Already tole him.
And, I laughed out loud at your comment.
I dont’ use lol, but I understand why others do. It’s a nonverbal cue. But, honey, I did.
You’re a Hoot. Maybe it’s our similar pennsylvaniadutch roots, but, we are yakkers, ain’t we?
And, to Molly and Omi, lotsaluv commin’ at yaz.
I have some movies to watch and some soup and cornbread, so, I’m heading south, or north.
Anyone else here who wants to…step outside tonight and find a star and think and feel and Make A Wish.
We are all together on this.
Dang!
PS – To all the Lurkers.
I totally respect your right to lurk, but if you wanna, just put a word, an ! point, or a link to something that moves ya, and we’ll know you’re there.
This is a real blessing. An Opportunity to connect.
You are not Alone.
Ahhh… DKos ban stories. All my lefty friends have good DKos ban stories. A couple of days after Kerry/Ohio 2004 he banned me for calling him “a faith-based voter.” That was right before the big “Oh, we are certain there’s lots of good reasons Exit Polls only lie in the United States” purge of exit poll “fanatics” from DailyKos.
Didn’t mean to bold everything. Sawreeeee.
Good night to all and everyone. Let it all gooooooooo. Until tomorrow.
Deb
Just one more.
How can I keep from singing.
good to know that.
I know that lady doctor. I am hoping her findings will help with Ron’s peripheral neuropathy.
Bestest of Best Wishes for that.
((Ron and Mary))
I will let that pass for your sweet sake, msmolly. But it does seem that fellow lives to goad me. And not in a witty way, either. ;-)
just watched the video. that is one powerful lady and one powerful video. wow!
i hope it does help ron. love to you both.
good for you. i love it that you’re feeding msmolly instead.
Oh, I do hope so! Just the power of doing something, when one is told there is nothing one can do, is power filled. IMHO. I wish only the very best.
Hey, gw. How is your wonderful self doing? ((greenwarrior))
I have no idea what it takes to be banned from FDL-TBogg (apparently you succeeded), but playing the victim here? Really?
Call me a DFH but i was listening to this as i drove through the 12′ snow bank hills last night and it just stuck in my head so seemed it might fit here. :)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnkiO3OSkec
I don’t know you at all. I only saw the your ID I’ll bet George Zimmerman was running around online with a LoginID like “gunbeforebutter.”
I wasn’t banned from Daily Kos; I got pissed and left.
To the extent that it’s humanly possible, I try not to direct the scorn at Kos that he has directed at those of us who don’t share his belief in the redemptive power of the Democratic Party. We’re natural allies, I think, we just see different remedies to the problem.
I met him once at Book Expo America; he’s actually quite convivial in person. But there’s something about the internet, where you know that you don’t have to put up your dukes when you insult someone, that causes people to be intemperate at times, and it’s unfortunate.
Why am I here? Not usually this time of night, but this was a great thread, must have been a lovely party – I see popped balloons and streamers all over the place.
I started having conversations way back on the old PBS Now forums – they were good ‘uns, though they had plenty of trolls. Got whittled down and whittled down till all that was left was me and one or two other hardy souls, and the trolls (always the trolls). Then it was just me and the trolls. Then it vanished.
All through that I would come here on links and follow live blogs on hearings, that sort of thing – so when PBS deserted me (I did not give up the fight) I came here and have loved the variety of thought and the respectful attitudes by and large. There is much commitment here, much dedication, beaucoup expertise – that showed in the record thousand plus thread. People were defending what each felt was the important value with whatever means they knew how to use. (Didn’t get nearly as bad as those PBS attacks, believe you me!)
I wasn’t involved (late as usual) but I am PROUD to say I read the whole dang thing.
You guys are good.
And here you’ve done it to me again, way past my bedtime too!
On that bedtime thingie, it’s eleven-thirty roundabouts – good night!
Actually, that was billyc up @186 :) Thanks billyc, that was beautiful!
Mir geht’s sehr gut und ich hoffe dir und deiner Familie auch! :)
What a great thread. Thanks, Peterr.
Very little, I’m afraid.
I came here in the first place during the Libby hearings after listening to a part of Johnny Wendel’s Sunday Morning program on KTLK in LA. I had gone for a drive because my only FM radio at the time was in my car, and I wanted to hear Ian Masters interview of Lawrence O’Donnell on KPFK, because in my understanding at that time, O’Donnell was an expert on all things political having been a Senate Aide and having been the producer of West Wing. Also, I had heard a short interview with him earlier in the week.
So, while I was driving around waiting for that interview to begin, Wendel, who sounded like a blowhard, said that he was going to have on a woman who knew more about this case than anyone else! I thought, “bullshit.”
So, then I listened to a very informative interview of Lawrence O’Donnell by Ian Masters. It was good, but left a lot of stuff in limbo.
So, ultimately, I turned back to Johnny Wendel, and he was interviewing this woman who had a blog and who clearly had a clue, way more than O’Donnell. So I paid real close attention. Her name was “Jane Hampshire,” which gave me nothing when I googled it. So, I tried to remember other goofy terms that he threw around: “emptywheel,” whatever the fuck that means, and “firedoglake,” for God’s sake.
I googled both and ultimately found HERE.
Prior to coming here I had spent a couple of months following Bob Somerby’s Daily Howler, which I found to be excellent. But, his is a one-man show, and here there was so much more.
Have noticed your comments ( odd it seems too ) only recently and so find it revealing to learn you have been around FDL awhile. Words are in service to thoughts (love,hope,sadness and loss just for starters ). Whether our words are spoken or written in english,chinese,arabic or those of Native Americans and African nations and the myriad other human languages current or long ago the nobility of good hearted and wise,seasoned thought find a word or words.
Being a place like FDL is very much about words it depends very much on the thoughts that our words serve to begin with and ends once we “Submit” them and put them up somewhere here at FDL. I believe the thoughts you express here at FDL billyc with words — like so many others who visit and contribute to FDL — are good and worthy. I am glad to be able to read what you and so many here at FDL put up for reading and seeing everyday. It is no small thing.
Humanbeings and politics go way back to the earliest of recorded time and times. Religion(s) is/are the twin to politics and both require belief and faith and take much human action,interaction and reaction to be good and better or sadly and so very often also bad and worse. I like aiming for good and better. I think many here at FDL share this desire for good and better. Which is why I have kept FDL current and continue to make comments here at FDL while stopping with the comment making pretty much anywhere else. Don’t even comment at GG’s anymore after having written well over 600 comments on GG’s threads over the years.
Years ago I first began commenting at Joel Achenbach’s “Achenblog” at WAPO which was for me all new territory after years of doing only “letters to the newspaper” stuff. I think Joel Achenbach may still be at WAPO. I made a comment to a Charles Krauthammer WAPO piece one day and soon afterwards found myself in WAPO’s Portal To Mystery Comment Corral/Banned WAPO Commenter Status. This was my first taste of what sites like Dkos practice so readily and with full zeal when it comes to issues like I/P and the D vs. R FlimFlam which are often gamed by the Fervent Kossacks and Dkos Obots who remain/like being blind to what the I/P Conflict does and is doing and Barack Obama’s Dark and Devious Politics and Deeds.
Interesting days here at FDL always and perhaps even more over the past few but politics and political viewpoints are not easy. Were not way back there in the early epochs of humankind and still are not.
Thanks to what Jane and Christy and so many others then as well here at FDL worked/work/keep working to create we all get to be here.
And that is good and for the better I think.
Hence this string of words. :-)
Our thoughts do matter. As do our words and deeds.
I too didn’t come for the trolls but I’ve left because of them and even reading this beautifully written and timely piece Peterr, isn’t enough to get me to come back, outside this response. I’m a old timer who just finally had enough, too much even, of this new hatred and vitriol that gets thrown about so readily. I’ve delurked long enough to write this but now it’s back to exile.
Margaret,
I hope when you’ve had a little more time to heal, you’ll come back. The people who helped develope the culture inthe first place are well suited to maintianing it and keeping the flame burning.
I agree with Cynthia. You’re a valuable presence here, and I hope you return.
First..nice post
Second I don’t have time to read all the comments. But I had to comment on the picture. There is a statue of Father Junipro Senna on one of the freeways just south of SF that we have unceremoniously dubbed Junipero fudd..he is a dead ringer. Your picture brought that immediately to mind and I got a great laugh..
Thanks
Bdog