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MiKe Huckabee - Caricature
After my post earlier today, I discovered that one more thing needed to be said. Instead of updating the earlier post, or putting it into the comments there, it deserves a new post all its own. Those uninterested in theology can skip this post and go on to something else.
That one more thing? Theologically speaking, Mike Huckabee is off his rocker.
On Fox News yesterday, he offered this gem of pastoral wisdom and insight (h/t TPM for the video):
We ask why there is violence in our schools, but we have systematically removed God from our schools. Should we be so surprised that schools would become a place of carnage? Because we’ve made it a place where we don’t want to talk about eternity, life, what responsibility means, accountability — that we’re not just going to have be accountable to the police if they catch us, but one day we stand before, you know, a holy God in judgment. If we don’t believe that, then we don’t fear that.
Let me see if I’m following this right . . . If only we’d had more prayer in school, this wouldn’t have happened? If only teachers would preach fire and brimstone, this wouldn’t have happened? If schools make God scary enough, then people would be too frightened to kill one another?
<head meets pulpit>
If this is what certain preachers are saying, God help the church.
Folks, right here you see the Big Difference between the fundamentalist politically conservative churches like Huckabee’s and the more mainstream churches like mine. Huckabee preaches of a threatening God who inspires by fear and threats — behave, or else! I and my more moderate to liberal colleagues, on the other hand, preach of a God who looks to inspire humanity by offering forgiveness and love.
Perhaps the Reverend Governor’s Bible is missing Luke 22 and the story of Jesus’ arrest:
While [Jesus] was still speaking [to his disciples], suddenly a crowd came, and the one called Judas, one of the twelve, was leading them. He approached Jesus to kiss him; but Jesus said to him, ‘Judas, is it with a kiss that you are betraying the Son of Man?’ When those who were around him saw what was coming, they asked, ‘Lord, should we strike with the sword?’ Then one of them struck the slave of the high priest and cut off his right ear. But Jesus said, ‘No more of this!’ And he touched his ear and healed him. Then Jesus said to the chief priests, the officers of the temple police, and the elders who had come for him, ‘Have you come out with swords and clubs as if I were a bandit? When I was with you day after day in the temple, you did not lay hands on me. But this is your hour, and the power of darkness!’
What? No smiting of Judas? No calling down thunder and lightning on the temple police and the priests? Where’s the accountability? Where’s the concern for responsibility? What kind of wimpy, squishy, feel-good Jesus is this, that says “put away your damn weapons” to his followers and his foes alike?
I’ll tell you what kind: my kind. He’s certainly not Mike Huckabee’s.
And it pisses me off when people confuse his God with mine.
Caricature by DonkeyHotey licensed under Creative Commons
88 Comments
Thank you for this Peterr.
I have seen numerous FB posts about how God is not in the schools so that yesterday is a result.
Yet, one of the things I was always taught in Sunday School and church was that God is everywhere so by definition, he is in the school. But as you are well aware I’m sure, what they (Huckabee et al) are most interested in is imposing their God on all others which leads me to ask them which God was not in the school – Was it the Catholic God that was missing? The Jewish? Muslim? Maybe it was the Pentecostal or Baptist God that was remiss. Or was it the Methodist or Adventist God? /s
To borrow from Inigo Montoya, when Huckabee says “God,” I do not think that word means what he thinks it means.
And yet another mass shooting in a sacred spot, this time in a hospital in Alabama:
Recommended. I believe the technical term for people like that is “false prophet”.
mfi
October 2007
April 2009
April 2012
I’m really, really tired of certain preachers too Peterr and believe it or not, even as an atheist, it pisses me off when people confuse your god and theirs. You see, I’ve never made a habit of knocking other peoples’ beliefs. Religion is entirely subjective so who am I to tell somebody what to feel? I can tell people somewhat authoritatively that the Earth is on the order of 4.54 billion years old, is mostly round and has a pretty durn stable orbit. But when it comes to faith, or what people choose to put their faith in, I’m in no position to tell people how to live their lives.
That being said, though I’ve always striven to live and let live when it comes to religion, all bets are off when the Huckabee types use their supposed faith as a weapon, a cudgel, against me or other people who they see as different or “other” than they. Your god doesn’t agree with that sort of thing but apparently Huckabee’s god both agrees with it and insists upon it. It also pisses me off when people take my own sometimes vehement criticism of Huckabee’s god as criticism of all religion or all gods. I don’t need a god in my life but I don’t fault those who do, nor do I criticize things, even if I believe them to be fiction, without good reason. I try to never respond to anything reflexively and I’m a creature of nuance. Trust me Peterr, RevBev, et al, I will never and would never criticize your god but I am certainly, unequivocally going to criticize the god of hateful, bigoted assholes. Every time such criticism is appropriate.
recommended.
Thanks, Margaret.
Mike Huckabee forgets that the 1997 mass shooting in Paducah KY happened during a prayer meeting. At school. During school.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heath_High_School_shooting
The shooter’s alias?
The Prayer Slayer
Sorry to see the nut farmers use the profession to pimp their own personal agenda, Peterr. Terrible and inappropriate comments at a terrible and painful time, good on you for calling them on it.
How dare he…
Actually, there probably is not all that much difference between Huckabee’s ‘God’ and Fred Phelps’
I consider myself a poor excuse of a Zen Buddhist since I have never consistently asserted the self-discipline necessary to follow that path. I’m comfortable with it because Zen recognizes that human language and understanding is usually inadequate to convey what reality really is.
I don’t understand atheists, for I can’t imagine having the faith to believe that there are no higher powers, but I don’t mind them as long as they don’t insist their way is the only way. I certainly can deal with Christians such as yourself.
Huckabee and others of his ilk aren’t true Christians, as far as I am concerned. They are hucksters and con artists who twist the Bible in order to gain power over and wealth from others. You SHOULD be pissed off when they claim to worship the same God as you do. What they really worship is the unholy trinity of power, wealth, and selfishness.
All that aside, Huckabee’s argument is patent nonsense. He’s saying that the removal of Christian prayer in public schools caused all of the school shootings. My parents remembered a time when no one ever even thought about praying in school–the 1920′s and 1930′s. Prayer in public schools didn’t get going until the 1950′s during the second Red Scare in which the enemy was “godless Communism.”
It was a capitalist propaganda tool then, and it’s a corporatist(in this case, specifically Republican corporatist) propaganda tool now.
Of course there isn’t, Huckabee and Phelps share a god. But there is an enormous difference between Huck’s and Peterr’s.
Rachel @CraneStation
9 hours prior to #Newtown, MI passes law that allows guns in schools, churches http://www.examiner.com/article/michigan-passes-law-to-allow-guns-schools-just-hours-before-newtown-massacre …
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Is God armed, Mr. Huckabee?
Here’s another one for you:
Just loathsome.
There’s that very different God again.
Fischer: “I think God would say to us, ‘Hey, I’ll be glad to protect your children, but you’ve got to invite me back into your world first. I’m not going to go where I’m not wanted. I am a gentlemen.”
Sorry, but my God has a habit of going to those places that feel forgotten by God and saying “Here I am.” To those who feel left out, Jesus said “come on in.” To those on the margins of the party, Jesus said “come sit at the head table.”
The only appeal that Fischer’s God has for anyone is to feed a perceived need of some people to feel superior to others.
The Church Lady is quite at home with Huckabee and Fischer. (Dana Carvey didn’t have to write his scripts; he just had to transcribe them.)
These people have wholly forgotten Jesus and his teachings. Other than the name, they have no clue what he was supposed to have stood up for. Charity, tolerance, peace on Earth and goodwill toward others. Giving, helping, loving…. Their god is represented by Leviticus and other bloodthirsty old testament monsters. I thought the root word of “Christian” was “Christ” but if you only studied the teachings of these guys, you’d think Christ was an armed, racist, homophobic asshole who didn’t have a problem knocking a few heads in order to force compliance.
I can answer this person. God was in the first grade teacher, who told her children she didn’t think she would see them again, and hid them in closets. When the gunman came in and asked where the children were, she said they were in the gym. Gunman shot her in the face and killed her.
Children survived.
Tell that to Fischer. He’d just call you “godless” or something hateful. I’m not the one you need to convince. Even as an atheist, I’m undoubtedly a better “Christian” than he is.
Well said; I was trying to recall the lines about God being with us ‘everywhere’….like the Holy Spirit, if memory still serves me.
Not a Game show where you have to pick the right door.
Yes, the problem with these hateful people is, you can’t reason with them. You’re spot on- I have been told that “You don’t believe in God…I can tell.”
Can’t reason with non-reason. I gave up trying.
And for some kids, a first grade teacher may indeed the kindest person they know. What a tragic, yet heroic, picture.
Huckabee may not think that God is present and with, say, prostitutes in New Orleans or elsewhere. His God seems to need an invitation or some sign of acceptability or some privilege to be let in….Im sorry for Huck….He is in position to teach, etc.
Spot on. Apart from being an exercise in frustration, it’s a complete waste of time.
I really have to agree with some other folks, don’t know who Huckabee is worshiping at the moment, but we don’t share the same God. I don’t believe in a God of exclusion.
I don’t either; I hope I didn’t imply that. Looks like there is a big writing effort to Fox; lots of folks protesting the Huck comments.
Oh My God. This story is a new one. New to me anyway. I have to assume that she will be awarded a presidential medal. Sorry she can’t get a medal of honor. I’m having a hard time seeing the monitor, seems to be raining in here.
Here’s Bryan Fischer, making a horse’s ass of himself:
http://cheezburger.com/45773569?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+feedburner%2Foicv+%28The+Daily+What%29
“When we had prayer in the schools We Did Not Need Guns.”
Ahem, let me break it down, Fuck-Nuts:
In Paducah Ky in 1997, the shooting occurred at a prayer meeting, and the people who were injured and who died, were praying during school.
No, you didn’t imply that at all. You implied a non-judgmental and welcoming God of inclusion, not one who shuns and excludes:)
Thanks….that is certainly my view.
OB! I remember a time when there was no prayer in school, and I graduated in 1958. I stated elsewhere that it seemed that the pastors of the various churches had some manners back then. The Methodist minister was not at all sure that the wanted the Baptist minister preaching to his kids, and the Baptist minister recognizing that he didn’t want turn-about either demurred. The Huckabee crowd has the manners of wild pigs.
And you are dead on about propaganda. I can remember when they started by trying to out dialectic the dialecticists of the Red Menace. A more or less steady stream of free enterprise, free market capitalism, and the ammendments to the constitution; seemed to be working, but apparently not fast enough. Or maybe the teachers were giving kids ideas that Wall Street didn’t want them to have. Anyway, they soon dropped that idea for the approved clincher: “Communists are atheists! Gasp! So it’s us against the “Godless Communists.” “Which, of course, means that you are either a fundamentalist evangelical right wing lunatic Christian, or you are a Soviet agent.
I had wanted to post this last night before we went dark. January Sojourner’s magazine has an excellent short piece on gun “idolatry;”
9mm Golden Calves. Serious and well-written.
I believe a more accurate description is Blasphemer. When you usurp the place of God and claim to speak with his voice, that makes you a Blasphemer.
During my first few years of elementary school in Texas, we had mandatory prayer in public school. First, we had to stand up, place our hands over our hearts, and recite the “Pledge of Allegiance,” complete with the “under God” insertion, or get sent to the principal’s office for a meeting with the Board of Education, which had holes drilled into it for less wind resistance.
Then, we all had to stand and bow our heads while some kid stumbled their way through reading a prayer over the intercom. At first, the prayer was a Protestant one, but this was San Antonio, so some Catholics objected. So then we had a Protestant prayer AND a Catholic one. Then some Jews objected, so we had to endure three prayers every morning. Then some other Christian sect(I forget which one, Jehovah’s Witness or Seventh Day Adventist or something) got in on the act. Then somebody’s parents converted to Hare Krishna and we got that one, too.
The whole process took about a half hour every day and hurt my feet.
Then the Supreme Court banned prayer in public schools and there was great rejoicing from all of us kids.
Maybe more prayer in school is the answer. Those who want their children to pray more instead of be educated more would continue to send their children to these prayer-centric schools. OTOH, those who believe prayer and religion are personal, and not appropriate for the school room or the school grounds, might choose a different school, or home school, or whatever. If The Huckster believes his own hyperbole, why didn’t god select him for the presidency . . . I’m sure he prayed hard enough. Was he not praying to the ‘right’ god?
Newtown sounds as religious as any town if not moreso. I have nothing but despair for our country. There will be nothing that changes future outcomes based on what happened here. It will go on and on.
More gun stores than grocery stores in our country.
We are a sick culture and mentally ill place. No treatment is available.
See, the evangelical TGOP wants it both ways with schools and teachers. Teachers are supposed to do in the classroom what parents are supposed to do in the home. That is, teach morals, morality, ethics, accountability, honesty, hard work, patriotism, spirituality, and respect. Yet, these same teachers are vilified as blood-sucking, greedy, socialist union lackeys and dupes who are undeserving of a living wage and dignified retirement pension.
I grew up in a town with 1250 souls in it at its’ peak. There were 6 churches and some scattered Baptists, 7th Day Adventists and Jehovah Witnesses scattered around, just for good measure. I’m not churched now and find solace and peace in nature and science. While I respect people’s spiritual search for hope and answers in a jumbled up world; that’s no excuse for tolerating the carnival atmosphere, posing as ” good news “, found in many congregations. It appears, from the outside, to be a summer stock actor’s playground, where the biggest ham gets the lion’s share of the audience’s admission fee. And, gets to do things to that same group that would land the average citizen in prison for a long time. If the business of America is business, then organized religions function to much like a spiritual ponzi scheme, for my tastes. The Unitarians seemed to be a good fit for me for a while, but, the Groucho Marx line did them in, too. Ya know the part about ” I wouldn’t belong to a group that would have me as a member. ” In the end almost all of us die alone in spite of, or maybe because of, the lovely volunteer sign up guest books at the back of the church. Just as nature intended, methinks.
The Huckster’s performance was offensive, but Tom DeLay’s remarks after Columbine retired the trophy for crassness. He not only said, “Our school systems teach the children that they are nothing but glorified apes who are evolutionized [sic] out of some primordial soup,” but also blamed feminism and–get this–contraception for the shootings.
This is an obnoxious post. The author thinks “his” god is superior to Huckabee’s. The idea that God takes vengeance on those who offend or disregard him is rife in the Old Testament. Peterr is selecting his texts from the Bible as much as any evangelical. We don’t need theological disputes of any kind in this matter, and I for one do not accept any Biblical authority – it is impossible to draw an objective, consistent viewpoint from it.
Except that Peterr is basing his “selecting” on the New Testament God – you know, the God of Jesus that preached love and compassion, rather than the vindictive, hateful God of the Old Testament.
The Bible, and corresponding god, of Huckabee is the same as everyone else's: written by humans with an axe to grind and a socio-political status quo to maintain and promote.
It is far more shocking when these sleazy grifters do not crawl out of the woodwork to proclaim their god has passive-aggressively allowed tragedy, because of callous disregard for their message universal, infinite love. (A proclamation delivered always in tones of paternal disappoint even as a tent pitches in the crotch of the cassock.) It is revolting.
I am a deeply, deeply flawed human being, but if I had an iota of the power of God, I would save those kids. If every soul on Earth spent every waking moment screaming the most perverted blasphemies, I would have made it so the killer had received the help he needed ensuring that this had never happened. I guess that that is why I am but a disgusting vessel of flesh, born of wretched sin, and not an all-powerful, all-good being . . .
Everyone here has their heart in the right place, but this hand-wringing of "his god, her god" just enables degenerates like Mike Huckabee. No matter how good a liberal you are, the bible is full of stories of children being slaughtered with smiling, benevolent approval from the Sadist upstairs; be it the Isrealites destroying the Philistines, or bears sent to slaughter the mockers of a bald prophet.
You are getting in the mud to wrestle with pigs.
This deeply flawed human being. According to whom, and what standards, and what judgement levels to determine the depth of the flaws?
Once one buys into this, all hope is transferred to the preacher of your choice.
Peterr,
Highly Recommended!
Being of Sound Mind and of a Reasonable Amount of Integrity, I ascribe to the Great Matriach of Universal Totality, and thusly, The Huckster, is all about “rash criminal stupidity.” Now, need more be said?
Jaango
That’s your myopic definition of obnoxious…Who are you to judge? The long and interesting story of Job has the cardinal lesson that we do not know the ways of God…that simple and that complicated. You were not chosen to grade and berate the posts; Peter is a smart and thoughtful commenter, even if you do not agree with him Surely you can find a more effective way to disagree that to insult.
The republicans, by refusing to address the issue of gun control, has become the party of death.
They don’t care if kids eat, or have decent homes to live in or have health care.They don’t care is they have consistent high quality education.
And they certainly don’t care of they are shot going to school.
All so they can wave their guns around and talk about the second amendment.
Very, very true Margaret.
How ironic that the likes of Huckabee and his fellow Conservatives lament the removal of prayer from schools (wrong by the way) while accepting and even idolizing the continuing insertion of unbridled violence into every aspect of American culture.
All around us, in our Foreign Policy, our TV shows, movies and video games, we are battered with the idea that violence is the answer to our problems. Huckabee’s brethren bring their weapons to political rallies and speak of “Second Amendment Solutions” to political differences. Some are surely advocating more weapons as the solution this insanity. If only we can vanquish our enemies, all will be well.
The carnage will continue as long as we continue to accept and glorify violence as solution to problems. 87 gun deaths a day produces a death toll that is nearly the equivalent of a 9/11 event every month and we don’t even take the time to shrug it off as unacceptable, for the most part we don’t even notice.
In the end this is a spiritual problem, not a material one. It is caused as much or more by our cultural worldview as it is by the availability of weapons. I am not ready to do away with the second amendment nor do I have a problem with restricting the sale of military grade weaponry. But I do not think we fix what ails us by doing away with weapons. The problem is as much about wanting these weapons as it is about having them or using them.
An opening prayer in my church goes:
Heavenly King, Spirit of truth, Comforter,
who art everywhere present
and fillest all things,
Come and abide in us,
And save our souls
O Pure One.
I love it because it doesn’t go into the formulations of faith, but is very ecumenical, I think. It always reminds me of the spirit moving above the waters in the chaos of creation.
Sorry, that should have been
And save our souls
O Good One
How do you know what the author of this post happens to think about God?
“…You are getting in the mud to wrestle with pigs.”
True. Up to our elbows in mud. Wrestling with those pigs.
You cannot let pigs have the last word about Christianity because, pigs being pigs, they don’t know what they’re talking about.
With respect, as an atheist I can’t imagine how you believe in God.
I salute your faith that there is nothing higher than yourself. I don’t have that much of it.
Please don’t take that wrong; it’s not a cutdown.
That’s really lovely…thank you. Spirit of comfort and truth….that’s certainly our hope, isn’t it?
I can’t speak for gesneri but for me and all non-believers that I know it’s the concept of faith, and any belief based on it, that we don’t buy into. Equating non-belief with “faith” is a common tactic believers use to create a false equivalence.
I do not believe in any gods because I find no rational basis for such beliefs.
And to the point of this post – I got tired of all preachers a long, long time ago.
Then it puzzles me why you come to this thread…Not to say, you’re not welcome. I do not understand why it would interest you.
According to me.
I am not a believer, but I recognize that being human means being prone to petty jealousies and ill-will that sometimes results in fantasies of torment and damnation for all the people who have "wronged" me. I would never cosign anyone to be tortured forever and, yet, I am presumably far less perfect or forgiving than an all-knowing, all-loving deity. Nor would I ever tolerate dozens of children being slaughtered in because their parents' prayers just aren't loud enough.
I noticed this assertion often proffered here on FDL. That some how people just worship the wrong God. I came here to say they are all wrong gods and to engage in this behavior is to perpetuate the murderous cycle of Saved vs. Unsaved.
I don’t think non-belief is the same as belief either, fredcdobbs, but there is always a rational basis for any belief, or there should be, for it to be valid. Which means, the believer is constantly testing what she/he believes against the lessons of ongoing life lived to the fullest. Not saying you can give scientific proofs, but you can, and people do, examine the teachings and examples of faith as critically as possible.
Even if you only explore the writings as works of literature, or of philosophy, human works to be understood in a human way the study will be worthwhile. Unfortunately, so loudly do the false prophets trumpet their spurious claims that they scare many away from doing that very simple thing.
Even if it is only to be able to plumb the depths of humanity’s great works of fiction, whose basis is Scriptural, that study is worthwhile. And all Scripture holds its own in this aspect, as literature at the very finest. Read it as if it were fiction if you like; just read it. Seek out meanings as you would with any great poem.
The early fathers were well versed in literature, philosophy, natural science. It’s only fair that we all should be free to discover all that there is in the Scriptural works as literature as well. Fine if you think these were the works of men; I do too. But such men! It’s a shame not to know them; they are worth knowing.
Oh, of course as a non-believer I couldn’t possibly have anything to contribute to this discussion. That’s snark in case you need help. If you really are a reverend then your comment is a perfect illustration of why I got tired of all preachers (and priests, etc.) pretty early on in life.
I don’t really owe you an explanation for why I choose to read what I read.
I would say that religion is the mud, and most (religious) discussion is little more than quibbling the consistency, temperature, and whether there is a more or less pleasant amount of shit floating in the muck.
Huckabee"s behavior is emblematic of religion in general.
There are a lot of people to get pissed at, with all the gods around. The Baptists alone have about fifty denominations, then there are another several dozen protestants sects, and then we get into the Catholics and Mormons, and the 7th . . .etc.
I did not ask for an explanation, I made an observation. Your reaction is indeed a bit extreme. Yes, please, continue to ignore.
I hope Peterr comes back. He made an observation about preachers; seems to be the critics are much more vicious. Why such an ax to grind?
This is manifestly untrue. It’s clear to me (and many, many others) that religious believers do not critically examine their beliefs, or maybe it’s fairer to say they critically examine them only within the limits of assuming that their initial premise is true – which is circular reasoning and pretty much the same as not critically examining the beliefs at all.
I’m confused – is there another kind?
I have no idea what you mean by your last two paragraphs or how they relate to any point I made. I could care less about what anyone chooses to read or study – that’s their business. I have no interest in studying scripture. I don’t doubt its historical or anthropological significance but that’s as far as it goes in my opinion. Greek and Roman mythology are interesting fields too but I don’t think they should form the basis of any post-enlightenment belief system.
You really should learn to read. I never said a thing about the original poster let alone criticize him. I replied primarily to a comment by Ohio Barbarian. I don’t get how saying that I got tired of all preachers is a criticism (fair or unfair) of the original poster.
My reaction is extreme? Your reaction, which is all too typical of the bigoted, condescending attitude religious believers take towards anyone who doesn’t buy into their belief system (most assuredly due to their insecurity about the validity of their beleifs). Yeah, you tolerate our existence as long as we don’t have the temerity to say or write what we think.
You want to throw down with me? You’re out of your fucking league.
I would say that religion is the mud, and most (religious) discussion is little more than quibbling the consistency, temperature, and whether there is a more or less pleasant amount of shit floating in the muck.
Huckabee"s behavior is emblematic of this.
OOPS!
A criticism of the original poster is probably implied as he is a Lutheran minister.
And for what it is worth, you are being a bit rude to those who do not think as you do in your response to RevBev. Name calling and insulting others is not conducive to civil discussion and is not generally allowed at FDL
Wow.
Huh.
So, as I see it, mandated school prayer will end violence in schools at roughly the same time I can fix the car by peeling oranges.
*waiting for an attack. I guess.*
There…fixed it for you. :-)
Uh, no. The bible is not full of such stories.
If you can’t even get the facts of what is contained in the text of the book right, it’s hard to have a discussion of what the book means or how it might be used.
My grandfather was a public school teacher at that time. As I recall him saying, there was much rejoicing in the teachers’ lounge as well.
Good to see you back, Peterr.
I’d say it was explicit, not implied.
Oh, and one more thing:
Almost all of the Bible was written not to maintain a status quo or promote, but to challenge it.
The prophets challenged the corrupt leaders of their day to live up to the love that God proclaimed. The psalmist and other writers wrote as much to challenge things as to promote them. The writers of the New Testament wrote to shake things up, not to bless the current powers that be. If one is to sum up the teaching and preaching of Jesus, it would be to turn the status quo upside down. As Jesus himself said at the beginning of his ministry,
Sounds like turning the status quo upside down to me. Mary’s Magnificat speaks of God bringing down the powerful and lifting up the lowly. That’s not blessing the status quo.
All this is not to say that people have not tried to use the Bible to bless whatever status quo exists. But let’s be clear, shall we, between what the Bible says and what people have twisted it to justify.
Peterr, Have you ever done a piece that expresses your views on why there is so much antipathy toward religion? I have been struck by that tone often since I have been coming here. In my life, I am around people with very different outlooks, but those positions or differences do not seem to carry the same sort of heat.
I am not ignorant of neither Christianity or the Bible. The Old Testament is bursting with the tacitly approved murder (and rape) of children:
In most of these stories the chosen people of God repay the perceived trespasses of others with wanton wholesale slaughter, when virgin daughters of enemies aren't kept as "brides". In some cases God specifically commands his followers carry out these activities, as with Moses and the Midianite women. God hardly looks upon these acts with impotent horror, as we all (hopefully) view Sandy Hook School, except for maybe Huckabee.
All of this is without mentioning the whole Abraham and Izaak story, in which God tortures a man with the thoughts of sacrificing his own child, Lot offering his chaste daughters as playthings to a crowd (whose intent in unmistakably malicious) nor commandments specifically prohibiting the abuse of children. Perhaps you would say that Jesus somehow mitigates all of this, but I would disagree.
Anyway, it goes on and on. You may disagree with me, maybe you don't believe the Logos — the Literal Word, but you can't claim victory by asserting that I don't know the Bible.
No, I haven’t.
Discussions of religion touch some very sensitive nerves all the way around. Those who have been hurt by religion have legitimate beefs, and those who have been healed by religion have a very different outlook on things. The hardest part of such a discussion is the use of sweeping statements, which add to the problems.
The Parable of the Pharisee comes to mind with the like of Huckabee.
Why is it that one branch of the church see to ignore the New Testament and talk about an angry & vengeful god, smiting this and smiting that, turning the curious into pillars of salt, tormenting an innocent man, and appears to drown out the other branches of the church who actually follow the message of the beatitudes?
Meek is not a word I’d associate with the follower of the angry & vengeful god.
A final question: What part of “Thou shalt not kill” is unclear?
I didn’t want to put this link on the Livestream (upstairs), but Peterr, RevBev, any thoughts on this:
http://betabeat.com/2012/12/anonymous-goes-after-westboro-baptist-church-members-over-plans-to-picket-sandy-hook-funerals/
I honestly feel like getting my on line ministry and preaching that God is clearly telling the people of America to stop countenancing the slaughter of our people. He is demanding that we stop listening to false prophets and turn our weapons into plow shares. Then ask for donations. If they are going to listen to hucksters and frauds, why not one who is actually trying to help them as well as themselves.
As for Mr. Huckabee, I refuse to call him any form of honorific, my response to him is that Christ quite clearly told people to pray in private, which is not school. Matthew 6:5 and 6:6 should pretty much have had Christians appalled at the very thought.
But don’t listen to me, I’m a friggin’ deist, like a fairly large number of our founding fathers…
I’ve served parishes regularly picked by Phelps and his crowd — on Easter, at funerals, and at other times.
The man is a troll, and should not be fed. Anonymous is only giving him what he wants — attention and virtual martyrdom.
The Topeka media long ago learned the truth of the internet axiom: “Do Not Feed The Trolls.”
Perhaps, you have heard of an obscure, destitute and little known sect of Christianity known as Catholicism? Couple that with Constantine's converison of the Empire and what you have is the religion of tyrants and kings.
If God can"t prevent mere, ignorant mortals from abusing his love or misusing his message, what the hell good is he?
Must be some new especially vile and despicable level of troll, planning to picket the funeral of murdered children, to blame homosexuality for the murders (apparently); you really gotta dig to get to that sort of low.
That’s “filled with”? That’s “bursting”?
How about God crying with Rachel at the slaughter of her children? How about God crying with the innocents, as Herod killed them all in an effort to snuff out the birth of Jesus?
If you’re going to claim that these texts are the ultimate expression of the Christian faith, you’re going to have to do better than that.
To be clear, I am well aware of the texts that Phyllis Tribble labeled “texts of violence.” But the overarching message is that love is stronger than hate, and peace conquers over violence.
Again, you fail to distinguish between the text of the bible and the way in which it has been (IMHO) misused over the centuries.
But keep on putting up your bright shiny things to distract the discussion.
So you have your perfect, rarified Bible, that no mortal may sully. It exists in mathematical perfection in an abstract, moral world that will never be.
I stated that it was not in fact this, but something much more awful. A book which I have cited is full of Chosen People committing horrible acts against children, with God's overt approval if not by direct command. It is a book that is indifferent to the suffering of children and families, just like Mike Huckabee. I then provided you with several quotations difficult to take out of context.
You retreated to the defense that the Bible is fine, but it is those who mistreat its message who are at fault. I replied that it is strange that an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good diety can't prevent earthly voices from twisting his words, abusing his infinite love and ignoring his message of revolution (seemingly disguised carefully as a defense of might makes right; exercised with unparalleled power by a theocratic dictatorship for over two thousand years). Either that or he chooses not to. Doesn't he care? Is he omniscient, omnipotent or of infinite goodness? If the answer is to any of those questions is "No.", then why in the hell would I worship him? If it is "Yes." then what are you going on about?
You again accuse me of smoke screens. I have not veered from my original message: Huckabee's behavior is typical of much of the clergy in these tragedies. He and his ilk are encouraged by the Good Book. This behavior should not be surprising, because it is spurred on almost every page, whether or not some on FDL (choose to) believe in a loving, hippy Jesus.
If you are going to run people down for being ignorant, you should probably be prepared to realize that is not why some hate religion, and you'd better be sure that you have something better in your arsenal for than "No true Scotsman" for reinforcements.
Bad people do horrible things, whether nor not God exists. This is clear. However, in order too get good people to do horrible things you only need religion.
You said none. I quoted, now you are moving the goal posts.
I"m sure that the sobs from the Omnipotent were a real comfort to Rachel. "Gee, God, thanks. 'You need a giant hankie? Maybe you could have used your magic power to save my kids instead." In the second case. . .Oh, I don't know, maybe God should have just killed Herod, or his soldiers, so that all those children wouldn't have been murdered? 'Just a thought.
If it isn"t, then what the hell is? All the since made-up stuff used to embarrassedly sweep all that good ol' Bronze Age morality under the rug of the Enlightenment?
I am glad that you are also know Bible scholarship, so you at least don't preach from ignorance like a lot of liberal, New-Agey Christians. I, however, remain skeptical of your book's over-arching message. Two thousand years seems long enough time to get things right.