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All Friday afternoon, NPR, CBS, and the rest of the Traditional Media were busy pretending that OMG OMG THAT DAMN BLACK GUY OBAMA JUST GAVE POLAND TO RUSSIA!!! Quotes from various Polish political figures were trotted out as evidence that the Poles hate both the decision and Obama and the US now forever and ever and ever, Amen.
Which is why this Polish opinion poll hasn’t got much US media play outside of Attackerman and The Politico. Here’s my cleaned-up version of the Google Polish-to-English translation thereof:
The GfK Polonia survey for [the Polish publication] "Rom" shows that although the Poles are divided on the missile program, its opponents have a considerable advantage. 48 percent think it’s a good thing for Poland, whereas only 31 percent consider this decision as bad.
As many as 58 percent of respondents believed that the lack of U.S. missiles did not affect the level of Polish security.
Of course, it helps that Russia has immediately responded to Obama’s decision by cancelling its plan to deploy missiles near Poland — thus making Poland safer than before — but that’s another thing you won’t be hearing on NPR or CBS or anywhere else in the TradMed this weekend.
41 Comments
Thanks! I simplify my life by not watching that trad med stuff, and Obama does little enough that I like. But this move is sensible and merits a reasonably glowing thanks on his website.
The fact that the missile defense system doesn’t work might also be viewed as good enough reason to stop trying to implant it.
Good Morning, Phoenix Woman
The part about making Poland safer than before not making the news…is that because it’s a fact and not a politically based move? Can’t have reality messing with money-backed, partisan politics?
Yikes, it’s early on a Sunday and I’m being cynical. Actually, I’m still waiting for the coffee to finish brewing. I’ll feel better soon.
PS, nevertheless, if Poland is safer, I’m happy.
The fact that the missile defense system doesn’t work might also be viewed as good enough reason to stop trying to implant it.
You’re kidding, right?
“Does it work?” is probably Question #19 on a 20-Question checklist.
And of course all this fuss is about a weapons system that almost certainly doesn’t work.
Until you need it, you’re never going to find out. Or is that a feature rather than a bug?
Everyone would be safer if we rid the world of these destructive MASS killing devices.
I suspect Putin had a lot of contempt for Bush and his war mongering and is happy to cooperate with President Obama.
And everyone rush over to Driftglass – nothing like Drifty on British comedy.
This kind of crap in the media goes back many decades. What varies is the awareness level of observers of said media.
I’d bet on Question #20(x)
I have one word to say to anyone that considers themselves a moderate, liberal, progressive or, heaven forbid, a radical who contributes one nickle to one of NPR’s fundraisers, Sucker!
Why is it that the reich wing isn’t screaming about the deficit when Obama makes a decision that will save billions of dollars on a expenditure that has only been proven to not work so far.
During Watergate NPR did some real journalism. It was then that conservatives and the Republican Party targeted NPR as nothing more than a bastion of “liberal” sentiment. I guess they realized that truth had a liberal bias and they couldn’t let that stand. This was about the time when we began to hear rumblings of a “liberal” media bias from the right. This drumbeat continued with telephone and letter writing campaigns of intimidation. Republicans from the time of Reagan and through Bush 1 and 2 orchestrated a strategy to at the least neuter NPR, and the media in general, and at best turn it into a source of conservative memes and propaganda. Through it’s operatives and appointments NPR has been reduced to a mere shadow of their glory days during the Watergate years. It is America’s National Propaganda Radio.
The general negative response to Obama’s change of plan was fueled by a blunder on his part, a small but meaningful detail: the DATE of the announcement.
If you announce that you’re moving the missile shield plan from Poland to Russia, the September 17, THE ANNIVERSARY OF THE SOVIET ATTACK ON POLAND IN 1939, is not a good day (to say the least) and will surely make your announcement sound like a plot against Poland.
Also, Obama shouldn’t have ignored his invitation to the commemoration of the beginning of WWII in Poland on September 1.
Given the U.S. endorsement of Putin’s outrageous celebrations of the anniversary of the end of WWII, which failed to acknowledge Poland’s struggle as one of the Allies, don’t be surprised at the Polish reactions to Obama’s announcement.
Poland deserves an apology from the U.S. about the treatment of the two WWII-related anniversaries and then a clear explanation about the missile shield plan, hopefully, delivered not on a nationally important day that the U.S. would again fail to honor. Mark your calendars for November 11, the Polish Independence Day.
Definitely when you look at shills like cokie roberts, mara liasson and the house negro juan williams… not to mention their fake news stories.
Can’t stand them. Won’t listen, why support that rubbish? Look at whose interest they serve.
I don’t expect Putin has any contempt for crime, given how he has murdered off independent journalists in Russia.
Does it work?
Why does that matter ? Does it pour millions of taxpayer dollars into the coffers of the defense contractors?
If it does then it works fine.
Geez some people just don’t get it!
Well, to be fair, it sometimes works in tests where the people firing the interceptors are given the trajectory of the target beforehand.
We saw how well Star Wars defenses worked during George The First’s reign .
The Patriot missiles couldn’t hit a relatively slow low flying Scud missile
Are we supposed to believe that these systems have improved to the point that we could take down an ICBM ?
And the wingnuts are always blaming the left for it’s wasteful government programs
And here I tho’t it worked when there were tracers implanted in the target… again, sometimes.
This drove me crazy! Last week the WSJ had a headline on the front of the dead tree edition.
“Obama’s flip-flop on missile shield roils allies”
and in the article, not one of the allies that were “roiled” was named! Only positive or “no big deal”. (except for Lech Walesa who had some question, and he is a former pres of Poland.)
My newest
I guess I’m not just up to speed to engage with you all this am. I’m having bagels with smoked salmon, cream cheese, purple onions and tomato. Now, off to get ready for church. Don’t tell me, I know. I’m a sucker.
The missle system works as long as the “enemy” is willing to put homing devices on their missles so that our missles can lock in on them- as the military does for the successful “tests”.
Except really it is the perfect day, because it stands in contrast to the past. Obama can de-escalate and the Russians respond with similar de-escalation. The invasion of ‘39 was to provide a buffer in front of Russia for the inevitable invasion of it by Germany, i.e. out of fear. Similarly, maintenance of the Iron Curtain. (Yes there is the empire building aspect, too.) Removing a threat like U.S. missile defense pulls the rug out of any hawks in Russia that can play on that fear, which makes everyone safer, including the Poles.
Obama has been very disappointing on a number of domestic issues, but this decision is one of his best moves of his administration so far. It is smart, as well as brave. And you know what? He’ll survive all the huffing and puffing from the Right. Maybe he’ll learn he can do the right thing on all issues. (Not hopeful of that.)
A sleeveless! Monica Crowley is foaming at the mouth about this, she honestly believes the Rooskies are about to nuke the eastern seaboard of the US
I can’t sleep at night knowing that we are not going to have missiles in Poland pointed at Russia to protect us from Iran!
“Perfect” day? I disagree. People understand the shield plan to mean investments, so they see this change as a sign of pro-Russian sentiment.
I don’t see the Russian invasion of Poland in 1939 as “merely a buffer.” Please get your facts straight: in 1939 Russia was acting IN COOPERATION with Nazi Germany. Ever heard of the Ribbentropp-Molotov pact?
Germany and Russia were partitioning Poland between each other. If you think that ethnic questions were not at stake, please do some historical research. Both Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia published copious pamphlets and made propaganda films vilifying Polishness (the ethnicity) and the Polish government. During WWII, Germans executed Polish intelligentsia (to support their claims of Poles’ “slave race” status) and the Soviets executed Polish officers (and now reconsider all those jokes about the Polish army’s lack of preparation for the war).
I’m not suggesting Obama is especially to blame. What I’m saying is that Polish rections to U.S. strategic decisions would seem less strange if Americans finally did some research about 20th-century history from the Polish perspective. It should be imperative for the U.S. President if he wants to have Poland as an ally, don’t you think? I’m just stating the obvious.
And, yes, I’m an offended Pole. And I’m decidedly NOT right wing.
Eggzactkly.
Except that the missile system Obama is restructuring didn’t do any good at defending Poland. It did provide lots of money for the contractors who made it, but that’s about it. Its only net effect was to irritate Russia, which retaliated with a plan to put missiles very near Poland. Now Russia, as a result of Obama’s action, has rescinded those plans — thereby making Poland safer than before.
A-yep.
If Obama insulted Poland symbolically, then that is a bad thing, and should be rectified. I think the US should have very strong ties with Eastern Europe.
But I support Obama’s decision. I have friends in Eastern Europe and I sympathize with their concerns about Russia. But after Russian-Georgian war, I think Eastern Europeans also need to have concerns about the reliability and wisdom of US policies and promises. Regardless of the merits of various actors in Georgia last summer, as a US citizen, I think our country’s credibility of was damaged by appearing to have made big promises and publicly making threats, and then doing absolutely nothing.
I do not want that to happen again. One way to avoid that situation is to be careful in the commitments the US makes, make serious commitments only when they are necessary and after a serious analysis of the costs and benefits of all the possible scenarios, and after a commitment is made to avoid armed conflict except as a last resort. The Bush/Cheney approach to foreign policy flunks all those tests in my opinion.
The Polish anti-missile system was publicly advertised as being directed against Iran. From what I have read, Obama’s decision will provide quicker and more reliable protection against missile threats from Iran. But now it is asserted, or implicitly assumed, that everyone knows the system was really to protect against Russia. Was the Bush/Cheney policy made under false pretences to the US public? As a US voter and a taxpayer, I want to know.
This concerns me on several levels. As US citizen and human being I am concerned about the promise of protection that cannot be fulfilled in the near or medium term during which international problems may well arise. Regardless of the long run feasibility of the anti-missile system proposed under Bush, everything I have read says that it would not be ready to deploy in the near to medium term. There are number of international issues regarding Bulgaria, Crimea, etc. that may cause trouble in the near to medium term. Would there be another situation, as in Georgia, where there will be an international crisis based on implicit, symbolic and confused promises and empty status games, backed up by near complete impotence on the US’ part? That is not acceptable to me as a US voter or taxpayer or human being.
This whole debate is ridiculous in my opinion. It seems to me that in terms of actual protection against aggression by Russia, Poland has lost nothing in the near to medium term because, the promised Bush/Cheney anti-missile system does not currently exist. If that system was sold as some sort of guarantee to address Poland’s current worries about Russia, the Bush/Cheney policy was a fraud perpetrated on both the US public and Poland. It would be better to have an open debate whether the US should just promise to go to war with Russia, or whether the US should restart a Cold War, because it seems to me that is the only protection against Russian influence that the US can offer Poland right now. Unless one is willing to try patient realistic diplomacy and negotiation, which I strongly prefer over explicit or implicit threats or promises that are of dubious value.
What I’m taking issue with is not the missile shield plan itself. Trust me, I wasn’t excited about placing it in Poland. I’m happy that’s not happening. The problem is, you can’t expect to handle this unilaterally, without a dialogue with Poland. You can’t just announce things (on national holidays that add strange overtones to your announcement!) and then wonder why your intentions have been misunderstood.
I don’t want the missile shield in Poland but I would like to see Poland treated finally as a partner. As I said, the Polish government obviously marketed the missile shield as an incentive for U.S. investments in Poland. So please don’t write off Polish reactions as expressions of a strange desire to have weapons on Polish territory — it’s really about economic opportunities that people were led to believe would arise out of the program.
This deserves more attention on the part of the U.S., more genuine dialogue.
Thanks for your comments. I appreciate them. But please remember that it can be difficult to be well informed in the US, because the news is so sensationalistic and often very innacurate and partially reported.
First I see that the whole idea of missile shield has been completely cancelled. Then I see an uproar about ‘caving to the Russians’, with Iran not even mentioned, which is puzzling because Iran was the announced reason for the shield. Then I read that the people of Poland are outraged and feel betrayed and abandoned, but when I read the story, all the comments are by US pundits and a couple of US and Polish politicians, and I don’t know who the heck the Polish politicians are, I don’t see anything from some one identified as part of the current government. I see lots of US politicians upset about ‘bad signals to Russians’ and why did we not squeeze some concesstion out of the Russians for cancelling the system. I read or see this stuff in the big corporate domestic media.
Then I read (on the blogs and international press) that there still will be missile shield but one that can be built quicker and will be more useful against Iran. Then I read (in the international press) a poll that most Poles in fact do not want a missile shield at all. So it took me several days to piece everything together, mainly through the blogs and the international press.
If people in Poland did not like the announced Bush plan, and feel that things are moving in a better direction now, but the good of that is cancelled because they feel insulted through the way the decision was made and announced, that is an awkward situation.
I think the US should be equally respectful of the feelings of every country who is an ally or a partner of some kind and with which we do business, from the Maldives, to Estonia, to Poland, just as much with bigger countries. The US is big enough so we should have some one who can explain to the adminstration how to handle these things, it seems to me. If Poland was not consulted and things worked out thoroughly with the government beforehand, that would be a very bad thing, even if most Poles agree with the decision.
So, on the Polish end of the deal, I do not know very much what happened.
“In Prague, Fischer told reporters that Obama telephoned him to relay his decision, and said that Polish officials had also been informed by the U.S. president.
“The same happened with Poland. Poland was informed in the same way about this intention,” Fischer said, according to the Associated Press. “
http://deephousepage.com/forum…..?p=1190103
“Poland’s government has put a positive spin on the US decision to shelve a controversial anti-missile shield despite claims that America has put closer relations with Russia ahead of Polish interests.
Speaking after President Obama announced his decision to cancel the deployment of the system, which both Poland and the Czech Republic had agreed to host, Donald Tusk, the Polish prime minister, said that country’s national interests had not suffered. “
http://www.newpolandexpress.pl…..poland.php
Thanks for the info, and especially the links.
You’re welcome. It appears that many knew that this decision was likely to happen. This is from August 29/09.
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“US may put missile shield in Israel, Turkey instead of E. Europe – Polish report
According to the Warsaw newspaper Gazeta Wyborcza, Washington plans to scrap its plans to deploy anti-missile bases in Poland and the Czech Republic for defense against attacks from Iran.
In deference to adamant opposition from Moscow, the Obama administration is looking at alternatives including Israel and Turkey. No immediate comment was available from US, Polish of Czech officials on this disclosure, but the Polish paper cited unnamed US officials on Aug. 27 as affirming that Washington was now considering deploying anti-missile interceptors on naval vessels and at bases in Israel and Turkey, as well as potentially in the Balkans. “
http://www.thejerusalemgiftsho…..eport.html
OT..
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“The president was responding to a letter sent to him by seven former directors of the CIA, urging Obama to end the investigation because they say it would upend the CIA’s ability to do its job.
Speaking to CNN’s John King on State of the Union, the president said he trusts prosecutors to be “judicious” when investigating the CIA.
“But the law is the law, we don’t go around picking” who and when to prosecute, the president said. “
http://rawstory.com/08/news/20…..buse-prob/
OT #2..what does this mean? What nasty policies does it allow?
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http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_…..t-attacks/
Thank you, everyone, for responses and additional links.
I do understand that it’s difficult to learn more about other countries and their politics in the US. I’ve been living in the US for quite a bit now, and have been observing the changes in the political scene from the presidential campaign through Obama’s election to the current healthcare struggle (something hard to understand for me, a person coming from a culture where universal care is indisputably important).
While I do understand that for most Americans it might hard to obtain accurate and fairly objective information about other countries, that certainly should not be the case for US Administration or anyone who wants to be considered a serious journalist.
Several American universities have Polish studies programs. There are Polish consulates in several American cities. So is it really so hard to contact someone who could provide advice on diplomatic relations with Poland?
As for Polish politics:
The current Polish government is liberal — the majority party is Platforma Obywatelska (Civic Platform); the previous one was right-wing, dominated by the party associated with the current president (Lech Kaczynski) — (Law and Justice) Prawo i Sprawiedliwosc. The government which backed up Bush’s war on terror was left-wing (majority party: The Democratic Left Alliance [Sojusz Lewicy Demokratycznej]). Needless to say, the decision to go to Iraq has cost them dearly.
In terms of voters: very generally, voters from rural areas and the East tend to support right wing parties, the West and big cities usually votes left-wing and liberal. The Polish right is strongly associated with the Catholic church, so you can see a pattern.
I should probably also add that the largest newspaper in Poland is Gazeta Wyborcza, which has an English portal: http://wyborcza.pl/0,82049.html
It’s a much more reliable source of information than random internet posts about Poland from blogs.
thanks. I have saved that link to the newspaper.
Zbigniew Brzezinski’s interview.
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“What about the way we informed our allies of our decision?
The way it was conveyed to the Czechs and Poles could not have been worse. It involved [laughs] waking up the Czech prime minster after midnight with a sudden phone call from President Obama. The Polish prime minister was at least allowed to sleep late. But as far as Poland was concerned, unfortunately, poor staff work did not alert the United States that today, September 17, is a particularly painful anniversary for Poland. In 1939, the Poles were still fighting the Germans when on September 17 the Russians stabbed them in the back. To the Poles, that is something very painful. And since they misconstrued—and I emphasize the word “misconstrue”—that the missile shield somehow strengthened their relationship with the U.S. when it comes to Russia, it was immediately suggestive of the notion of a sellout. It’s the wrong conclusion, but in politics, even wrong conclusions have to be anticipated.
How is it possible that the State Department did not bring up the sensitivity of this day to the Poles?
Lousy staff work. Period. I don’t know who precisely to point the finger at. It was obviously not anticipated in this case. “
http://www.thedailybeast.com/b…..e-message/
Thans for posting this. Obama *lost* Brzezinski’s phone number?…