
Most of us posting at this website are horrified that our country tortured prisoners under our care. Most of us have also written diaries, posted comments, written letters to the editor and made phone calls to politicians demanding accountability for those Bush administration officials and possibly Democratic officials who enabled this to happen. Most of us have also criticized the Obama administration for refusing to initiate a criminal investigation when we all know that one is warranted. And most of us don’t understand why more people aren’t demanding accountability. But maybe it’s not about what most of us do maybe the key to getting Obama to act requires us to take a critical look at what some of us don’t do.
Awhile back I started searching for pieces critical of the Bush torture program that were written by conservatives. I thought if we had more conservatives on record, who were critical of the Bush torture program, that it would make it much more difficult for the traditional media to dismiss people, who wanted accountability for these crimes, as just “liberal score settlers”. I also thought it would prevent "bi-partisan" loving Obama from ignoring this issue. While I found a few conservative pieces here and there I realized that I wasn’t finding very many. And then I started wondering why weren’t there more of these critical pieces?
Unlike some, I don’t believe that most conservatives approve of torture. I think the ones who do are in the minority among conservatives but just happen to be the loudest voices. So if I was right about this, why weren’t there more conservatives out there condemning the obvious torture that occurred? I think I may have stumbled upon one reason to help explain why some of these conservatives weren’t speaking out.
On Monday I did a Google search on torture and wound up on a moderate to conservative website reading a piece by Jason Arvak that took issue with another piece at that same site by Eric Martin whose piece theorized that because Petreaus had come out against torture that it would be difficult for him to win the Republican nomination. The person challenging this remark, Jason Arvak, stated that torture is NOT a core conservative value. Mr. Arvak’s comment piqued my interest so I posted a comment to his blog post.
What I learned during the discussion was that evidently one of the reasons that some of the rank and file conservatives are not voicing criticism of the Bush torture is because they are afraid that if they give an inch they will appear weak in the eyes of their enemies (Us). In other words, they are not treating this issue as a rule of law issue, as they should do, but as a partisan issue to be defended at all cost.
"It ignores the hyper-partisan atmosphere within which conservative bloggers are forced into a siege mentality where any concessions are perceived as a sign of weakness by merciless leftist attack dogs." – Jason Arvak
Now why is any of this inside the conservative camp information important to those of us who would like to see a criminal investigation of the Bush torture program? Why should we care about the self-imposed predicament that these right-wingers find themselves in? I think it’s important because it’s just possible that we have an opportunity to allow these rank and file conservatives to save face so that they can feel comfortable enough to begin standing up for their own principles again. Do I think they should have enough guts to do this on their own? Sure, but obviously it hasn’t happened yet so maybe we can help that process along be giving them the opening to save face.
I ran across this piece on the Conflict Research Consortium’s website called Face Saving that gives a pretty good description about the concept of saving face.
Face saving (or saving face) refers to maintaining a good self image. People who are involved in a conflict and secretly know they are wrong will often not admit that they are wrong because they don’t want to admit they made a mistake. They therefore continue the conflict, just to avoid the embarrassment of looking bad.
It then talks about how gloating can wreck the process.
One aspect of this principle is the rule of not gloating or bragging when one has won a victory. Gloating makes the other side look bad and feel badly, which can encourage them to withdraw their cooperation with any previous agreements.
Now I know some people would prefer to see these conservatives nailed to the wall rather than helped out of their jam. I can certainly understand that feeling myself. Some of these people are real jerks (so are some people on the left) and I have no sympathy for them but some of them just got caught up in defending Bush because they initially thought it was a garden variety political attack not something of substance. By the time they realized their mistake they’d already committed themselves and didn’t know how to get out of it. For these people, in their mind, our "gloating" may keep them solidly in the "defend Bush camp."
I know gloating can be extremely satisfying but in the larger scheme of things is it worth it? Is it worth sabotaging our long term goal of investigations for the short term pleasure it provides? I’m certainly not advocating that we grovel and pretend that they were correct to defend Bush because they weren’t. I’m also not suggesting that it’s in any way our fault that they won’t do the right thing just because we gloated because that’s just ridiculous. I am, however, suggesting that if we use this knowledge about the power of allowing our adversaries to save face to help convince these conservatives that this is a rule of law issue and not a partisan, protect your party at all cost issue that we may get more people advocating for accountability. Anyway it’s at least something to think about.
This piece by Jeff Jacoby from The Boston Globe may give us an idea of how to begin to bring these conservatives along. Mr. Jacoby is clearly a Bush man yet he has written this critical piece about the torture program. The angle that he uses may be one that we can also use to help prod these conservatives into recognizing that this is not a partisan issue.
Saying nothing is torture in itself
[snip]
As regular readers know, I write as a war hawk. I strongly support the mission in Iraq. I voted for President Bush. I believe the struggle against Islamist totalitarianism is the most urgent conflict of our time.
But none of that justifies the administration’s apparent willingness to countenance — under at least some circumstances — the indecent abuse of prisoners in military custody. Something is very wrong when the Justice Department advises the president’s legal adviser that a wartime president is not bound by the international Convention Against Torture or the US laws incorporating it. Or when that legal adviser tells the Senate, as Alberto Gonzales did last week, that ”there is no legal prohibition under the Convention Against Torture on cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment with respect to aliens overseas."
If this were happening on a Democratic president’s watch, the criticism from Republicans and conservatives would be deafening. Why the near-silence now? Who has better reason to be outraged by this scandal than those of us who support the war? More than anyone, it is the war hawks who should be infuriated by it. It shouldn’t have taken me this long to say so.
**Cross posted at Daily Kos



18 Comments







When I wrote this piece I thought there was a good chance that I’d get some negative comments about my “saving face” suggestion but I wasn’t prepared to not get any comments. Is it that bad? LOL
No, it is NOT that bad and I find it a well written and thought provoking diary I concur with. We of the ‘left’ NEED to reach out to those we have disagreements with to not convert them or appear as “merciless leftist attack dogs.” (except when such is justified, say like the Republican budget proposals) but to share our commonality as citizen’s living under a Constitution that has been ripped and shredded by politician’s over the years. The use of the Commerce Clause is but one example of how Congresses have manipulated the Constitution for their own personal reasons/fortunes.
There are many issues where those of the ‘right’ and those of the ‘left’ have common ground but the mass media thinks it wouldn’t have any ‘news’ unless they push the differences.
Jacoby is correct when he says “More than anyone, it is the war hawks who should be infuriated by it. It shouldn’t have taken me this long to say so.”
THE problem as far as I’m concerned is that citizen’s have forgotten -and I’m told it’s not even mentioned in high school anymore- that ‘the price of liberty is eternal vigilance’ ; From George Washington onwards there have been warnings and concerns voiced about banks and corporations but what do we have today but a government that is owned by the same banks and corporations historical figures have warned about?
PMorlan, don’t give up; when I first started posting ‘diaries’ I didn’t get any responses either. No big deal once one realizes that everyone has plenty on their plate to do and think about.
Thanks ubetchaiam. I’m not much of a writer and it takes me forever to even get my pieces in a form that people can even read but I think it’s important for all of us to speak our minds. I greatly admire the many excellent writers who post here and at other places on the internet. They put together great pieces just about every day. I can’t do that but every now and then when I see something that I don’t see other people writing about I try my hand at writing. I’m getting better but I’ll never be a “writer”. LOL
By the way, sadly the Jacoby piece was the last one he wrote. He really needs to write another one. I sent him an email telling him so. LOL
I went to hear former Rep Mickey Edwards a few weeks ago. He was shilling his new book “Reclaiming Conservatism”. As one of the co-founders of the Heritage Foundation and someone who ran APAC for five years, he is a true-blue conservative. He is appalled at the torture and civil liberty abuses of the Bush administration and extremely disapointed in his fellow Republicans. He admitted he voted for Obama and so far he is disapointed. To him, Conservatives stand for freedom, which means upholding the constitution before anything else (how that’s different from liberals, I have no idea). He struck me as a very intelligent and reasonable man with whom you could have a reasoned conversation. Some of the others in the audience really wanted to attack liberals and he brought them back to sanity. It would be interesting to have him for a book salon.
He is a very reasonable man on civil liberties issues. If I’m not mistaken he was on Bill Moyers show once talking about the Bush/Cheney power grab.
“merciless leftist attack dogs.” – Jason Arvak
Doesn’t have the same rings as DFHs.
While I was watching the recent Islamic nations conference there was mention of the President of Sudan being charged with some international crime(s) and an arrest warrant having been issued for him. All the other leaders thought it was terrible and they should resist.
Would they resist an arrest warrant for the leader of Israel if he ordered a nuke dropped on Iran?
Would they resist an arrest warrant for Dubya and his team for the torturing they ordered?
Would they resist an arrest warrant for Osama bin Laden or Zawahiri and other leaders of Al Qaeda for their attacks of 9/11/01?
I also wonder if an Israeli leadership would resist an arrest warrant for Mahmood Abbas of the Palestinians if he were to attack and slaughter Jewish “settlers” on the West Bank.
It seems to me a lot of people are being short-sighted and resisting the very idea of the Rule of Law. How far will that get them?
Here’s some distressing news.
Leahy Bails on ‘Truth Commission’ Plan
By Charlotte Dennett
April 1, 2009
Here’s the link to the ACLU petition to Eric Holder to appoint a special prosecutor to investigate the Bush administration’s use of turture, those who authorized and ordered it, and prosecute if evidence warrants.
We have the ACLU to thank that we even know anything about these atrocities committed by BushCo. Their demands for documents under the FOIA produced Yoo’s memos.
Please consider signing this petition.
Thanks for the link acquarius74. I already signed the petition quite some time ago but hopefully anyone reading this thread who hasn’t done so will do so now.
I usually try to build a communication bridge between my views and those who differ with me; but when it comes to people like Reps. Trent Franks, Darryl Issa, and Rep King – no way. Watching them and listening to them try to justify torture in the House Judiciary hearing with Addington and Yoo made this sweet natured little old woman of 75 want to rip their face off.
I don’t think we’ll have much luck with the professional politico’s. I was thinking more about the rank and file people you see posting on websites. Even some of them won’t be good candidates but I bet a lot of people who read the discussion you have with them might be. When I run across someone I know who just isn’t interested in the conversation I just politely tell them we’ll just have to agree to disagree and go on to someone else whose more receptive.
I cross posted this diary at DailyKos and when they did a diary rescue I got some interesting comments. Check it out if you get a chance. The link is in the body of my diary at the very bottom.
The only way to get things to change is to fight for them. If the GOP are saying we are merciless attack dogs then good they are scared. They should fold now and avoid pissing us off we have a bank bailout, people losing homes and jobs, 2 losing wars etc pissing us off.
The GOP wants to blame Acorn , poor dark people and Obama for what Bush and the banks have done. Outside the 20%ers people are not buying this line despite the GOP media.
The GOP wants to save face fine either admit they did something wrong and work with us to fix it it or run the risk that voters will get angrier at them!
GOP attempts to shift the blame from Bush and the Bankers to ACORN and the poor are not working.
Had to delete this one.
link
I just realized that the link to my Daily Kos piece was the wrong link. Here is the correct link.
” A US judge has ruled that foreign suspects held by the US in Afghanistan have the right to challenge their detention in US civilian courts. “
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7979885.stm
Great news. I wonder what the Obama administration will do.
just want to add my belated thanks for this diary, pmorlan.
personally, i like the idea of helping people “out of their jams” – especially as i’d guess the “secretly know they are wrong” is at least in part so secret they are not entirely aware of it.