
It’s been the rationale for using torture, a la Kiefer Sutherland’s character on the television series "24" — tick-tock-torture, to keep the time bomb at bay. But there never was a ticking time bomb, and they knew it. Their actions prove it.
The flight logs and the timeline of the rendition flights skipped helterskelter across the world to different locations and venues; some of the flight plans took days, especially when teams of personnel from other entities and countries were involved. They didn’t land at the closest place, nor did they land someplace where they would be out in the open, clearly questioning their rendered prey about the tick-tock-time-bomb because the immediacy of a potential attack warranted immediate action.
Tick-tock, tick-tock.
They even took their time to set up multiple black sites across the globe; imagine the hours-days-weeks-months of negotiations required to trade a missile defense system for a moldy old prison site, or HIV/AIDS money for a regional command post and another black site. Imagine the numbers of people involved in these negotiations.
Tick-tock, tick-tock.
Nor was any of the legal groundwork done rapidly, collaboratively, cooperatively where information could be shared quickly in a commons, because the safety of the nation’s citizens and infrastructure demanded all of the brightest and best work on this with great urgency to prevent the next "mass casualty attack" surely pending at any moment.
No, the work was done by one guy here, another guy there, on their own, without any clear trail that somebody at the uppermost echelons of governmental authority had asked for their work out of urgency. The sneaking around to acquire nebulous and shaky authority took time which a ticking time bomb scenario wouldn’t offer. The legal pussy-footing and finessing the fuzzy legal authority for multiple intelligence, military and law enforcement agencies took years.
Tick-tock, tick-tock.
And finally, there is the body of commentary and testimony from those involved, none of which takes our breath away because of the urgency under which they worked after 9/11. The word of detainees clearly indicates they gave up very little real intelligence and far more false information to stop the immediacy of torture alone. Could they be lying even now? Certainly, but why would they? What do they have to gain by lying at this point in time?
This guy, on the other hand, has far more to lose by telling the unvarnished truth. His words here again sound chill, calculating, without the impetus of any driving need to save the country from an immediate attack as much as he needs to cover his backside after the fact from what became a systemic administrative policy:
WALLACE: Let me ask you — you say you’re proud of what we did. The inspector general’s report which was just released from 2004 details some specific interrogations — mock executions, one of the detainees threatened with a handgun and with an electric drill, waterboarding Khalid Sheikh Mohammed 183 times.
First of all, did you know that was going on?
CHENEY: I knew about the waterboarding. Not specifically in any one particular case, but as a general policy that we had approved.
The fact of the matter is, the Justice Department reviewed all of those allegations several years ago. They looked at this question of whether or not somebody had an electric drill in an interrogation session. It was never used on the individual, or that they had brought in a weapon, never used on the individual. The judgment was made then that there wasn’t anything there that was improper or illegal with respect to conduct in question…
[crosstalk]
WALLACE: Do you think what they did, now that you’ve heard about it, do you think what they did was wrong?
CHENEY: Chris, my sort of overwhelming view is that the enhanced interrogation techniques were absolutely essential in saving thousands of American lives and preventing further attacks against the United States, and giving us the intelligence we needed to go find Al Qaeda, to find their camps, to find out how they were being financed. Those interrogations were involved in the arrest of nearly all the Al Qaeda members that we were able to bring to justice. I think they were directly responsible for the fact that for eight years, we had no further mass casualty attacks against the United States.
It was good policy. It was properly carried out. It worked very, very well.
WALLACE: So even these cases where they went beyond the specific legal authorization, you’re OK with it?
CHENEY: I am.
Yeah, he’s okay with the view that slow, plodding, methodical torture was necessary, that it was okay to send out plane after plane after plane, rendition after rendition after rendition, to gather up persons alleged to be al Qaeda and torture then detain them and for years on end, whether they were truly al Qaeda or not.
As a general policy, he says it was good and that he was okay with it.
Without one bit of hair-on-fire urgency conveyed in this testimony before the court of public opinion.
None.
Because there never was a ticking time bomb threatening Americans, and we’re just realizing it now, years and years later.
[Excerpt above from interview of former VP Dick Cheney by Chris Wallace at Fox News (and no, I'm not linking to them). Photo: It's ticking, by Michael Tienzo via Flickr.com.]



53 Comments




1. They knew 9/11 was coming. How could they not? They chose to let it happen to grab power.
2. They knew there were no WMDs. They wanted the oil.
3. They tortured to make the prisoners give false information about a link between Saddam and AL Qeada.
4. They committed election fraud in Ohio in 04.
5. They knew the financial crisis was coming. They knew they could profit from it and they did.
6. Obama is complicit in their war crimes. He will never, EVER allow a thorough investigation. EVER.
7. We live in a dictatorship now. Congress is moot. This is by design.
8. Democrats have no interest in returning this nation to the rule of law. Not while there is soooooo much money to be made off of war and security profits.
9. Everyone who runs for congress has already been paid off by corporations. Democrats are as bad as Republicans.
10. If there is to be change, we, the people, will have to make it. Our representatives have all defected to the other side.
DieselDave, I’m not able to cover the items you’ve brought up.
But I’ll point out that Deadeye Dick used the “P” word not once but twice in the excerpt I posted.
POLICY.
The former Vice President of the United States thought of torture as POLICY.
What else became policy without input from we, the people?
So by using the word policy, it plays into the criminalize policy differances that gets thrown around.
If the policy is criminal to start with then it’s moot point to be making.
Plus they had to line up all of the good doctors and psychologists. No ticking time bomb. Not that any of it would have been okay if there were a ttb.
Nice clock, great post. Thank you.
Have a drink.
Cheney felt, and feels, that if it’s his policy then everyone should just go along. He would have everyone believe that this is the policy of our country and approved by our Congress. What an evil man. Very nice post, Rayne. thanks
Come to think of it mayhaps they thought the terraists were using a Year Glass instead of a ticker.
You know what pisses me off — besides a typo I just found and can’t correct?
That 7 months AFTER two terms in office this diseased and toxic excuse for a human being tells us that torture was POLICY.
POLICY.
UNITED STATES POLICY.
Just put the bloody cuffs on the asshole now and frogmarch him right now.
Please.
Listening to the wretched Duncan Hunter rationalize torture is turning my stomach.
-G
Excellent point. The ticking timebomb was just a distraction, to throw up a false argment that torture opponents, i.e. those who believe in our Constitution, would waste time refuting while the Bush torture policy went forward. This goes along with the point I have been trying to make that Cheney et al tortured to punish, not to acquire information. They tortured to show they were tough and not the hopeless dopes that allowed 9/11 to happen.
I left you a reply on the Lockerbie thread. Thanks for the interest.
Namaste
Cheney is a proud sociopath.
His daughter is a proud daughter of a sociopath.
-G
I’m willing to bet that Cheney had a live satellite feed directly into his office to watch torture live on an HD flat screen, popcorn (or dick) in hand.
But but we couldn’t see the truth due to the mushroom cloud.
Ticking time bomb arguments are essential for right wing talk radio hosts to use for their “24″ loving listeners. Especially the “Christian” ones.
The Ticking Time Bomb scenario appeals to them because it allow the listener to be okay with becoming the torturer.
“You have captured a terrorist. He knows where the bomb is. What would you do to protect your wife and child? THERE IS NO TIME! What would you do!”
Some hosts bring up revenge for 9/11.
Some diminish torture linguistically, “enhanced interrogation”. We Enhanced interrogated to death over 100 terrorists. Doesn’t have the same ring as, “We tortured to death over 100 humans”
Some down play torture using humor.
Some compare the worst of the terrorists acts (beheading) to our acts making anything less not as bad.
I concur with Marcy in the last post that we need to move the conversation to death by torture of people who were NOT 9/11 or al-Qaeda.
Who is driving and supporting the Cheney narrative? Talk Radio hosts.
For them torture is
1) Funny
2) Has sexual overtones
3) Not serious because “no permanent bodily harm’ happened
Or
1) Is about war and bad things happen in war
2) It works, Cheney says so.
Listen to these clips from last week that encapsulate these views.
It’s from KSFO in San Francisco, Brian Sussman and “Officer Vic”.
(Comparing waterboarding to gargling (audio link) includes sexual overtones of forced nudity
Comparing threats of death by power drills to making furniture. (audio link)
Cool! That must be it.
Wasserman-Schultz won that argument.
Cheney for president!
Tweety actually called him on it.
I know I’ve never agreed with any republican in my life. But it seems like they have gone over the edge batshit insane crazier than ever lately. It’s very disturbing.
Cheney admited torture was american policy under bushco…. I hope the special prosecutor was listening, because last time I checked that is against the Geneva Conventions.
rayne, this is an incredible entry, incredible in the brutal simplicity of your point
VERY WELL DONE!
Oh, thanks, me go look.
Apparently it was POLICY for Cheney to direct remote controlled aircraft into the Twin Towers on 9/11 too.
That doesn’t make it legal.
Ask Dick if he thinks it was just a complete coincidence that BOTH jets that struck two of the three buildings that collapsed in Manhattan on 9/11 just happened to appear to pass directly over the former Stewart Air Force Base(privatized by one Ronald Lauder). Two flying fuel bombs replaced the two passenger aircraft over Stewart, and you saw the result with your own eyes. How much fuel was onboard that second flight? The entire aircraft had been converted to a fuel tanker…OBVIOUSLY. You did see the fire ball, right? Do you remember the pre-9/11 news stories about the airforce ordering up some civilian jets to be converted into fuel tankers in Florida? They converted civilian jets into fuel tankers and you saw how they were used with your own eyes. Dov Zakheim’s Sysplan technology flew them to their targets. The third plane that was to strike WTC-7 was the one shot down in Pennsylvania – a massive screw up. Could it be any more obvious? Building 7 falls into its own footprint 7 hours later, not having been struck by a plane?
Ask Cheney if its just a further coincidence that first responders are dying from inhaled asbestos. The Twin Towers were loaded with Asbestos, and Halliburton was the bagholder on the disposal of these buildings.
Cheney is Bin Laden.
Wow. That sentiment is repeated in so many languages! Totally agree with the enlightenment aspect. Thanks.
I have a new theory and I’m gonna post it on torture threads till I find an answer;
you know what would go very nicely in the torture timeline?
the time when the Iraqi’s suspected torture, (when they realized we were still using abu graeb) and the time we were no longer welcome as liberators
I suspect they coincide almost to the week.
if that’s true that marks the time our policies begin recruiting exponentially insurgents against our cause, our government and our people
if so, imagine how that would play when a progressive points it out
Thanks much. I will get around to writing a Seminal Diary one of these days.
After getting thrown out of Libya thanks to Reagan’s downing of Two Libyan jets over the Gulf of Sidra I had the opportunity to attend Arizona State Law School with Bmaz. We met at the Next Hurrah after not talking for over 25 years. I am indeed a very rich man, Heh,heh.
Is that you John Varley?
Wow! So what did they do with the passengers? Were they taken to the future? I saw the movie Millennium (1989)(with Kris Kristofferson as Bill Smith and Cheryl Ladd as Louise Baltimore) where they did that but I liked your book was better. But please keep writing science fiction, I enjoy it.
Just a devastating argument, Rayne. I’ve read and used others more “philosophical”, but you point out the obvious. Just look at the time they took, how they went about it. Brilliant.
Re the issue of sexual overtones to torture, from spocko at 16… everyone who has studied torture in any depth has commented upon the sexualized element related to it, to the kind of mixed erotic-aggression thrill that those involved in torturing derive from their “work.”
That’s a diary I’ll look forward to. Never had the opportunity to visit any countries other than Morocco and Egypt (and that was 45 years ago) so am always interested in other folk’s experiences on the continent.
Rayne,
sorry about th OT with SD. This is a very important point that you stste very logically and with passion. Policy indeed.
CHENEY: I knew about the waterboarding. Not specifically in any one particular case, but as a general policy that we had approved.
bullshit.
She must be a sociopath herself. Lizard Cheney. h/t MadDog.
there was a ticking timebomb – the countdown to the shrub coup.
Hope you see this. I linked to it over at EW’s latest on Christie and the car full.
Physicians’ Group Seeks Criminal Investigation of Torture Docs
— By Michael Mechanic | Mon August 31, 2009 12:52 PM PST
“Doctors, nurses, psychologists, and other health care professionals complicit in the US torture program should be subject to an independent investigation, and those found to have violated professional ethics or the law should be prosecuted and/or lose their license and professional society memberships. That sentiment, from the nonprofit Physicians for Human Rights (PHR), may well mark the first time a doctors’ group has demanded true accountability of its professional peers.”
More.
Tick Tock…Tick Tock
“Waterboarding and sleep deprivation were the two most powerful techniques and elicited a lot of information,” he said in an interview. “BUT we didn’t have the time or resources to do a careful, systematic analysis of the use of particular techniques with particular individuals and INDEPENDENTLY CONFIRM the QUALITY of the information that came out.”
~John L. Helgerson, the former CIA inspector general who investigated the agency’s detention and interrogation program, said his work did not put him in “a position to reach definitive conclusions about the effectiveness of particular interrogation methods.”
I.E. No bombs were found, much less deactivated in the nick of time. No domestic terrorists were ever arrested. No hijackings thwarted. LOTS of information…but not one strand that ultimately led to stopping a real threat…a ticking time bomb. If they had located a terrorists plot or even trained terrorists in situations that might be assessed as imminent to an attack…that would independently confirm the information was useful…of good QUALITY. But they clearly got nothing more than trivia…or names of people who had no role in attacks.
“But we didn’t have the time or resources to do a careful, systematic analysis…”
What a joke, huh? They pissed away so much money on Blackwater and the other PMCs, even more on Mitchell-Jessen, outsourcing to people who as “consultants” and “experts” should already have brought the needed analysis to the table as part of their credentials before they received a freaking red cent from the U.S. Government.
But no, they weren’t contracted for the purposes we’ve been told. Certainly not to protect against that ticking time bomb. They were brought on board to realize POLICY.
p.s. dear mod, whomever you are if you are looking here, please help me and correct the following:
graf 1: rational should be rationale
graf 10 (just before the excerpt): too lose should be to lose
Obviously in a hurry to get this piece posted. Maybe I should have outsourced cooking dinner to experts…
Mod note: Edit complete.
Thanks so much, Mod of Mystery!!
I know I was thinking about “rational,” pondering its opposite even though I was typing “rationale” as in reason or excuse.
How insane or irrational is it for us to believe for so long the ticking bomb story, when they couldn’t be bothered to acquire, retain or even outsource personnel with appropriate language skills to interrogate the detainees? They had no intention of obtaining and analyzing intelligence from torture if they weren’t even committed to having and using the necessary language resources on hand to do the job right.
I have no doubt that Cheney and many other Republicans truly believe in the ticking time bomb scenario. That they are unable to distinguish between fiction and reality does not surprise me in the least.
The scenario should be easily dismissed:
1. How do you know for certain about the reality of “ticking time bomb?
2. How do you know what any detainee actually knows? If you knew this, you wouldn’t need to torture. So on the basis of a hunch, you are prepared to violate all accepted standards of human decency and compassion?
3. How can you evaluate any information obtained via torture? Unless it conforms to what you want beforehand, how do you know, or even suspect, that it is accurate?
4. What if you are wrong? One of the cornerstones of our justice system is that it allows for the possibility of error. That’s why the accused has right to legal representation and an appeals process. The decision to torture assumes an absolute possession of truth and abnegates the entire justice system in favor of vigilante justice and does not allow for the possibility of error.
This is a ridiculous scenario that has no basis in reality. Every intelligence official that I have ever seen questioned on whether or not this situation has ever presented itself maintains that to the best of their knowledge, it has not. If it has never happened, why does this fictional situation have the power to captivate so many gullible Republicans? Maybe they should spend a bit less time with “24″ or Tom Clancy novels and a bit more time reading the Consitution.
I saw him, but what was even worse was the relatively weak responses of Chris Matthews and Deborah Wasserman-Schultz. I don’t think that either one of them has been tracking the issue of accountability much beyond the talking point stage. Too bad Chris didn’t have EW or Glenn Greenwald to go after Hunter. But even more, why is MSNBC giving so much time to the torture apologists. All day long they kept bringing in these Republican robots to evaluate what Cheney was saying. What did they expect to get from them except a rationalization for law-breaking?
Hugh, They also tortured to manufacture false information that they could use to justify the Iraq War.
I knew Cheney had evil in his heart. I continue to be shocked and dismayed not just by the sheer black-hole singularity quality and off-the-cuff banality of his evil, but by the fact that arrest, trial, and conviction for these blatant crimes against humanity, the Constitution, U.S. and International law, and simple decency seems to be inconceivable save by those who lack the power to do it.
Nice read, Rayne. Excellent points regarding the timing of it all in relationship to the dreaded ticking time bomb.
I’d also like someone to do a thorough vetting of how “24″ itself got into production. Perhaps there are a couple of interesting skeletons buried there as well? From what we can see so far, the rot and disregard for the Constitution and the laws ran very, very deep…
“Joel Surnow is an American writer and producer best known for being the creator of the television series 24, and the series La Femme Nikita. He also produced the Fox News Channel The Half Hour News Hour.
Surnow has described himself as a supporter of the Republican Party, donating money to the campaign of Rick Santorum and expressing particular admiration for former President Ronald Reagan. He is also a close friend of conservative radio host Rush Limbaugh. However, Surnow is a self-described “isolationist” and has stated that he has “no faith in nation building”. He is the owner of an American flag that flew over Baghdad during the 2003 invasion of Iraq, which was sent to him as a gift from one of the regiments stationed there. “
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joel_Surnow
Bob Cochran, who created the show with Surnow, admitted, “Most terrorism experts will tell you that the ‘ticking time bomb’ situation never occurs in real life, or very rarely. But on our show it happens every week.”
Surnow, who has jokingly called himself a “right-wing nut job,” shares his show’s hard-line perspective. Speaking of torture, he said, “Isn’t it obvious that if there was a nuke in New York City that was about to blow—or any other city in this country—that, even if you were going to go to jail, it would be the right thing to do?” “
http://www.newyorker.com/repor…..fact_mayer
seconded !
a true fdl treasure
Yes, I was aware of this, but thanks to link to the Mother Jones piece.
Here’s a link to the PHR “white paper” they just released, explaining their full position, and documenting the crimes of medical professionals and psychologists, coming off the CIA IG report.
Rayne,
A wonderful write up and well thought out. Thank you for posting.
Thanks for sharing that info about “24.” One of the worst shows ever — not in terms of script writing, drama, acting, but the damage the show has done to our national consciousness.
Because “24″ aired every single week and over broadcast airwaves (not just cable), the psyche of the public received validations regularly and consistently that there really were ticking time bombs, and there really was a legitimate need for torture. Complete and utter bullshit.
I always find the ticking bomb argument laughable on logical grounds alone and wonder how anyone can be taken in by it.
By definition, the scenario depends on getting the right answers right away–the time is the crucial factor. You threaten to torture me. To stop the torture, the theory goes, I have to answer, and the answer leads you to the bomb.
The problem is that I don’t have to answer truthfully to stop the torture. I just have to tell a lie that takes some time to check. If it takes long enough, the bomb goes off–also removing your incentive for torturing me.
So I strongly suspect that lies are not told under torture merely to make torture stop. They are told in order to advance the subject’s agenda–in this case, to insure the explosion of the hypothetical bomb. The lies become disinformation, a weapon in the arsenal of jihad/revolution/resistance/people’s war.
To handle the ticking bomb scenario, your best bet would be to let the subject get comfortable enough to taunt you nd maybe let something slip.
You’re welcome. It is by design, not accident, that this show is written to persuade the public that torture is necessary. It is psyops. I tried to link to information that shows when the CIA got involved with TV programs like CSI. The old ‘the memory hole’ has it, but the site is down. It came under attack about two weeks ago. When it is up again, I will give you the link. If this diary comments are closed, I’ll see you somewhere and give it to you.
I don’t watch 24. Anybody know if the show was still pro torture by the season finale?
*********
(Jan 2009)
“The opening scene in Sunday’s season premiere where Jack Bauer defends his trademark use of extreme interrogation methods before a Senate committee will not be the show’s last word on the controversial subject this season. In fact, torture will be an ongoing debate all season that might not be resolved until the May finale.
Conceding that the inclusion of the Senate scene was partly inspired by the criticism of “24″ by human rights advocates, executive producer Howard Gordon says torture will be “an evolving question” that will play out “throughout the season.”
“There was a conundrum of how do we do a show that has taken quite a bit of heat for allegedly advocating this way of law enforcement,” Gordon says. “I hope people have the patience and the appetite and the desire to watch the whole season. The answer to these questions will not be known until the very last episode.”
http://www.thrfeed.com/2009/01…..e-24-.html
It occurs to me that there is a real-life ticking bomb story from World War II. Those facing the bomb were cleverer than the “24″ clown–they put their captives in a place where they would be killed if the bomb exploded, so lying could not help them. But even so, the captives didn’t talk.
In 1941, Italian frogmen from the MAS 10 special forces unit infiltrated Alexandria harbor and placed time-fused mines under the British battleships Valiant and Queen Elizabeth, then the only battleships Britain had in the Mediterranean. Two of the frogmen got into trouble and had to surface in the harbor, where they were captured.
The British had a pretty good idea of what the Italians had done, but knew they had no time to locate the mines in the dark. So they locked the Italians up in the hold of Valiant, so that they had the choice of talking or drowning horribly (a violation of the laws of war, by the way).
The Italians did not talk, and both ships sank to the bottom of the harbor. As it happened, neither Italian drowned.