Does morality have any meaning to “progressives” who refuse to support a primary challenge of Obama?
They’ll be offended that I’m questioning their morality, they’ll be offended that I put “progressives” in quotation marks when I refer to them. Well ask me if I give a damn. They’re going to vote again for a “Democratic” president who authorizes the assassination of American citizens, who’s complicit in war crimes and torture, who protects Bush Administration thugs and Wall Street criminals instead of prosecuting them, who’s abused power and obstructed justice ever since he lied his way through his oath of office, who did nothing when five rightwing freaks on the Supreme Court gutted what’s left of fair elections in this country, who praised the Chamber of Commerce after its savage blitzkrieg of attack ads decimated his party, who will do whatever he considers necessary to appease corporate fascists so he can “win” reelection.
They can huff and puff all they want about Republican criminals being even worse than “Democratic” criminals, but it’s nothing but the huffing and puffing of hypocrites. Morality either matters or it doesn’t.
Human beings set themselves on fire in the Middle East in an ultimate protest against dehumanizing regimes. Hundreds of them have sacrificed their lives for democracy, in Tunisia and Egypt and Yemen and Bahrain. Libyan protesters were slaughtered in air strikes, they’re being gunned down by mercenaries, but they are not backing down, they’re still in the streets, they’re taking control of entire cities, they‘re ready to die for democracy, they’re ready to die just for a chance at democracy.
But here in America, the illusion of democracy is good enough for many “progressives”, their Lesser Evil strategy has been an epic failure for 30 years, it’s had catastrophic consequences, but every election year they wipe the blood off it, pledge allegiance to it, and expect us to admire their pragmatic and sophisticated moral cowardice.
Primary challenging Obama needs the support of Netroots leaders like Jane Hamsher, but she’s concluded that a primary challenge would be really stupid because it would inflict seriously serious harm and damaging damage on the “Democratic” Party and ruin everything for everybody. She has this all figured out . . .
I don’t think a primary challenge to Obama is realistic, it just won’t happen. And even if it did, I can’t see how it would be successful. He dominates the party machinery, and anyone who would challenge him would be hobbled by a damaged and embattled brand in the wake of a nasty intra-party fight.
If we primary challenge Obama, would we be shot dead in the streets? No. Would fighter jets drop bombs on us? No. The consequences would be even worse–there’d be a “nasty intra-party fight” and we’d have “a damaged and embattled brand.”
I don’t like to criticize Jane. I love Jane, I love Firedoglake, if I didn’t love her and this community I wouldn’t be here. We’ve seen the world change dramatically since she posted that assessment, because of one street vendor in Tunisia, revolutions have erupted across the Middle East. Was it realistic to think that would happen?
Well it happened, it happened because people have seen enough. Labor protests are spreading across America, conditions are right for primary challenging that corporate hack in the White House, the corporate elites have been rocked back on their heels, we have to ramp up the pressure and keep ramping it up.
I’ve been told about the FAQ’s, I’ve been told to tread carefully, but I’ve seen Obama take our campaign contributions, I’ve seen him take our activism, I’ve seen him take our help and our votes, I’ve seen him take the huge majorities in Congress and nationwide mandate for change we gave him and throw it all away with a Centrist grin, a wink at Wall Street, and a middle finger salute for everyone on the Left. He expects us to support him again in 2012, he thinks we have no choice.
I don’t know if the Left will finally take a stand and primary challenge that grand bargaining asshole, I don’t know what the “leaders” of the Netroots will say about it in the months ahead, but I know what Dr. King would say about it, I know what Bobby Kennedy would say about it, I know what Paul Wellstone would say about it. They’d tell us the Left gave America the New Deal, they’d tell us the Left gave America the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act, they’d tell us the Left shut down the Vietnam War, they’d be ashamed to see us sitting here in the ruins of American democracy, afraid to primary challenge a puppet president because it might damage his puppet party and hand power to the other puppet party, they’d tell us what no one on the Left should have to be told . . .
We’re better than this. We are better than this.
We need to primary challenge Obama. Refusing to primary challenge him is immoral. I’m talking to you, Jane. I’m talking to you, Firedoglake. I’m talking to the front-pagers, I’m talking to the editors, I’m talking to the moderators, I’m talking to the diary writers and the readers, I’m talking to all of you. Morality is not irrelevant, it’s not meaningless, it matters, it matters more than anything else.
We all have the blood of the innocent on our hands, we’ve all been complicit in the crimes of that “government” in Washington, but we don’t have to be complicit any more. We can start washing that blood off our hands, we can begin atoning for our complicity and moral cowardice, we can take the first step down the road to redemption by primary challenging that pretty-word-peddling-puppet of the oligarchs.



306 Comments

Right Arm Rusty, it seems to me that a lot of people who claim to be progressive are actually more of the Liberal ilk. They may agree with some of the progressive views of the real Left on social issues but most still seem to love their Capitalism.
They seem to think that they can compromise their way to a kinder gentler Corporate State and if some real Leftie gets in the way it’s ok to do a little backstabbing.
The DNC in ’68 informed me about the Dem party and Phil Ochs enlightened me about Liberals.
Bobby Kennedy . . .
“Each time a man stands up for an ideal, or acts to improve the
lot of others, or strikes out against injustice, he sends forth a tiny ripple of hope, and crossing each other from a million different centers of energy and daring, those ripples build a current which can sweep down the mightiest walls of oppression.”
Salāmun ‘Alaykum, Mohamed Bouazizi. Peace be upon you. That tiny ripple of hope you sent forth from a Tunisian street has become a current that’s sweeping away the mightiest walls of oppression across the Middle East. Other walls of oppression are still standing, but they won’t be standing much longer.
“Well ask me if I give a damn.” ; ok, do you give a damn? *G*
Jane is probably correct in her assessment BUT one can’t build/change a party that is built upon a corrupted foundation.
I would argue that such a primary challenge is necessary for the Dem Party to have any chance for redemption and that if such a primary challenge leads to ““a damaged and embattled brand.” , then that is what needs to occur.
Then the Dems could be like the phoenix.
BUT the real problem is not one party or another but the system and the system won’t change unless forced. Which is why I think a primary challenge IS necessary.
Let’s not forget Bernie Sanders ability to be elected.
Yeah, compromising their way to a kinder gentler Corporate State has been a spectacular success, we’ve never had it this good.
Hey. Rusty.
You don’t think Jane’s assessment was right? Great. How far are you with getting that successful primary candidate?
You do know that means you have to work inside the Democratic Party, right? You have to find a candidate who will raise enough money to go the distance against not only Obama but against the Republicans’ nominee?
You’ll have to build the infrastructure they need to get on every state’s ballot and to stay on the ballot for Nov. 2012?
Time’s a-wasting. Every moment you spend here is time you’re not spending on getting your candidate in motion.
Believe it was Paul Wellstone who said “Never separate the life you live from the words you speak.” You want this badly enough? Then less talking and more walking.
No. *G*
You’ve posted some good diaries lately, thanks ubetchaiam.
I’m for any action that challenges the corrupt establishment–primary challenges, third party movements, massive protests, strikes, they’re all necessary and are not mutually exclusive.
Obama needs to be challenged, that’s certain. The problem is that the left is not organized; there is no one on the horizon who wants to run against him; and we have no money. The morality of the situation speaks for itself. There is no way that I will ever vote for Obama again no matter what he does from now on. I alternate between being angry and depressed.
Righteous rant. Obama has to feel some heat from the Left, and the more the better.
I don’t remember asking for condescending advice from you, Rayne, but thanks for providing some.
I notice you separated morality from the words you spoke. The moral imperative of primary challenging Obama is the whole point of my diary, but you’re ignoring that. Please explain why.
Believe it or not, I can work on a primary challenge AND post diaries here. I don’t have to do one or the other.
I’m here and I’m staying here.
Get used to it.
Righteous diary, Rusty.
Personally, I’ve had it with the Dem Party. The Dem Party, through its actions, supports war, the assault on civil liberties, and promotes the corporate-welfare state at the expense of the poor and the middle-class.
Putting my resources into changing the Dem Party from within is not something I choose to do. After decades of campaign promises followed by betrayal, I’ve hit the road, never to return. For me, it’s not only a matter of principle, but also a matter of self-respect.
Dennis Kucinich has changed his position on primary challenging Obama, he thinks it should be done now. Conditions are rapidly changing, the labor protests are energizing the Left, Obama is not going to have a free ride to the nomination.
Thank you, Raymond.
“Obama has to feel some heat from the Left, and the more the better.”
Amen.
We have been deceived a little easier than citizens in other countries. We have been left the illusion of freedom, and that makes us think we have a democracy. When people are allowed to speak up, allowed to assemble and protest they do not realize they are being ruled by a dictator (in our case a class of dictators), and therefore don’t understand that they are not free. They do not understand until they are hurting enough to be motivated to change the system. When the Tea Party Patriots no longer receive their social security checks, when they no longer have Medicare they will probably not be as easily persuaded by people like the Koch brothers to fight for their “freedom” and against “socialism”. When the middle class is gone, and there are only poor people left in this country clinging to survival, the citizens might be motivated to fight against injustice.
How do we avoid being deceived by another convincing conman, who seems to be sincere in his promises? How do we motivate the middle class before it is too late?
Thanks, Alternate ID. I don’t blame you for wanting to have nothing to do with the “Democratic” Party, but that doesn’t mean you can’t vote against Obama in a primary. Every action taken against him matters.
I think the middle class is getting motivated because of the protests, their friends and neighbors who are public employees are being attacked, the assault on the middle class isn’t an abstraction anymore, it’s personal now.
Rusty — It’s getting tiring (in the fatigue sense of the word) congratulating you over and over on great diaries. You just keep hitting the nail on the head.
Guess I’m gonna have to get back in the gym and work on my stamina so that I can continue to hand out those congratulations.
“I’ve seen him take the huge majorities in Congress and nationwide mandate for change we gave him and throw it all away with a Centrist grin, a wink at Wall Street, and a middle finger salute for everyone on the Left.”
That one is worth seeing in print one more time.
I find it frustrating that our politicians are, in effect, public employees, yet neither they nor the public thinks of them in this manner. Shouldn’t they be just as despicable as nurses, teachers, firemen, etc. I know some of us, especially at FDL realize this, but so many citizens don’t.
“..that doesn’t mean you can’t vote against Obama in a primary.”
You are correct, Rusty. I welcome the opportunity to vote against Obama.
What I won’t do is vote for any incumbent, or any candidate who doesn’t vigorously condemn the Dem Party for its betrayals. That, right there, undoubtedly translates into no Dem votes for me.
I will not, under any circumstances, give money, or my time, to any entity connected to the Dem Party or organization that promotes Dem candidates in general.
The one exception I will make is for an Obama challenger. I jump at the chance to vote against Obama. It’s the least I can do after voting for him in 2008.
” I’m talking to you, Jane. I’m talking to you, Firedoglake. I’m talking to the front-pagers, I’m talking to the editors, I’m talking to the moderators,”
As your response from Rayne shows, you are talking to Dems, not progressives. Sorry Rusty. I too like FDL. A lot. There are alot of great posts here from people that have a majority of the same beliefs I have. But at the end of the day, this place is Dem. Question them, and you get the response you got above from Rayne. They want everyone to play in the sandbox cuz it’s working out great. It’s far better to ridicule your ideas, than actually step back and say, “That’s an idea you have there.” The right has their self righteous, pompous asses. Those who claim to be the left in the last few days, have shown they can act exactly the same.
Forgot to add. The reason they want you to play in their sandbox? Because they are now part of the veal pen, and are making money off of it. That’s why.
If Geithner stole your coupon, I’m going to be really pissed.
You’ve been challenged by a part of the progressive machine that would like your support Rusty. Why can’t you just clap louder? /s
:)
If there would be just one thing to change, I would choose this:
http://www.opendebates.org/theissue/
But there are many more changes necessary. What gets me about those who are busting their butts trying to bring about change from within is the seeming acceptance of the corrupt electoral system(except for the howling-rightfully so- about Citizens United and corporate contributions, like the Koch’s.
Who among them has written any diaries,etc. about Obama’s “Jobs Commission”? I might have missed such and if so, please provide me the link.
I saw Dakine’s but haven’t seen Bill or Rayne write anything and I don’t think Dakine is a mod or editor; could be mistaken.
It’s very frustrating, the illusion so many Americans still have that democracy exists in this country has made challenging the political establishment very difficult. But they’re finally waking up.
I don’t agree. Rayne has always stressed that if we are to make progress we must begin at the local and state level. We need progressive candidates who get elected to office, get known, and move up. I want candidates who know how the system works in order to get our agenda out there. I don’t want an unknown who has never even been on a school board as president. We have plenty of people in the back rooms today who know zero about anything.
Oooohhh, Listen to the Firepuppies Hooowwwlll!!! Bring down the Meat with the Bone!!! Hey, that’s MY chunk — go and get your own!!!
Hey, Rusty: When you get finished here, would you please trot on over to Michael Moore’s den?:
c/p’d from the “MMFlint” Twitterstream (PLEASE NOTE: All rights reserved — all credit due):
“…Tuesday, January 25, 2011 11:51:41 PM via web in reply to MMFlint Retweeted by MMFlint and 49 others
Bottom line: Obama’s not a prgrssve but he has a good heart. He’s the smartest guy in that rm &he’s on our side. Need 2 keep pressure on him Tuesday, January 25, 2011 10:58:20 PM via Twitter for BlackBerry®…”
In other words, in all fairness, “Ms. H.” is not alone…
Well said, canadianbeaver. FDL is more progressive than it used to be, but it has a long way to go yet. The more progressives who post here, the more progressive FDL will get. I’m talking to you, FDL readers. :)
I think we have a lot more progressive readers than we do commenters. We’ll get there, Rusty, and thanks for another special diary.
We need that, but we also need Netroots leadership. We need real, meaningful activism on major websites like FDL, activism against the corrupt two-party system, activism that extends far beyond petition signing.
I think we’ll get there too, thank you, Twain.
wendydavis posted a diary about the Jobs Commission . . .
http://my.firedoglake.com/wendydavis/2011/02/23/obama-appoints-trumpka-to-jobs-commission/
I’m not sure if any FDL front-pagers have written about, I think a saw a post about it but I can’t remember for sure.
Re: …Salāmun ‘Alaykum, Mohamed Bouazizi…”
I wish to extend my condolences to his family, and while I don’t have details off the top of my head, IMO it’s tragically ironic to have read that an officer happened to see a demonstrator immolating himself outside of the Pentagon and that was the start of the end of the Vietnam war (correct?)…
Dakine posts good diaries, I don’t always agree with him, but he’s well worth reading.
I quit clapping in 1968.
Rusty – you have a fine exhortatory style and make a compelling moral argument. But there’s just one problem with this post from my point of view:
You made a moral judgment on FDL’s owner, operators and staff here. And that is just not right in my opinion.
Others opinions do vary, but when I myself look over the total output of the front page, what I conclude is a continued an unrelenting push to the left, and no love for Vichy Democrats whatsoever, much less the President.
The other thing is, there is No End To The Battle With The Creeps. There’s no one time, win, won and done situation. There will always be the fight. Forever.
Last August we (weirdly the actual Dems here in CO) lost the primary battle against Bennet (CO-SEN) and it was bitter (because the OFA machine swept in and they were merciless and totally financed). That is fresh in my mind, and while you don’t like it, that is the exact same tactical scenario that Jane outlined which you quoted in your post.
Will I quit participating? No. I’m used to losses. CO is Amendment 2 land, which gay activists used to call “Ground Zero” until 9/11. I’ve been at this stuff for YEARS now.
So in my opinion, to pick a fight with the house, in the house that provides a venue to you, for a one time battle about Obama, in a political system that nobody can possibly change in the next 22 months, is counter-productive.
Hi, timestickingaway. I haven’t been there for awhile and need to get back there, Michael Moore is one of the Left’s most effective voices. I hope he does a documentary about the Madison protests
I made a moral judgment about all of us, Kelly. The last paragraph summarizes the fundamental moral issue confronting everyone here. I’m not picking a fight, I’m telling the truth.
I don’t remember that Pentagon incident, but I remember Buddhists immolating themselves in Vietnam, I think they were protesting against the Diem regime.
You declaim what you believe to be true, but no, there is no innocent blood on my hands. I fought vigorously against the Irak war.
While I have some responsibility for the Government of the US, I do not have culpability for it, which is a far cry from what you claim.
I’m right with you on this . . .
“What I won’t do is vote for any incumbent, or any candidate who doesn’t vigorously condemn the Dem Party for its betrayals. That, right there, undoubtedly translates into no Dem votes for me.
I will not, under any circumstances, give money, or my time, to any entity connected to the Dem Party or organization that promotes Dem candidates in general.”
The innocent blood on our hands isn’t only from the Iraq war, Kelly.
But if it will satisfy you, let me put it this way: most of us here have innocent blood on our hands, Kelly is an exception, he only has some responsibility for the Government of the US.
Touche Rusty!
I compliment you on your absolute ability to proclaim anything you want, and judge whoever you like in the fashion that suits you.
When you actually make a specific, measurable, and achievable goal, I’ll be right there with you.
Until then, good luck with your hortatories.
I reject your “compliment”, Kelly. It wasn’t a compliment, it was a cheap shot personal attack bearing no resemblance to the truth.
Foul Kelley and points deducted for words we have to look up.
“There will always be the fight. Forever.”
Forever and ever? Moreover, thankfully fighting can be minimized, or we could’ve gone “M.A.D”. by now…
Since GW Bush was selected, the internet exploded with “gotcha” reporting, which was really necessary and way overdue. Well, anger overload, is what seems to be happening now Rusty, and for some strange reason, owner’s of blogs, and their representatives don’t understand. What exactly is being accomplished with “OH MY GAWD! Look how evil these Republicans are!” in article after article after article. It isn’t just FDL. It’s everywhere. At the end of the “news”cycle as all that outrage is digested, quite a few now, follow it up by……”give to such and such progressive organization as we support Dem ____ to offer up a challenge to the evil Republicans”. It’s not working. Has never worked. Will never work. What has the internet blogs done for progressives in reality? Hey look at that, one of our “own” was just on the MSM for a 2 minute spot! Really? Is that what it’s all about? And it isn’t just FDL. There are others far too numerous to mention that are exactly the same, with celebrity owners. That’s what being a progressive has come down to? Let’s all support blogs on the internet? I am more than sure, that those Egyptians that protested in the thousands, were not all gathering in that square blogging on the internet. We’ve all become lazy, restless sheep. And I for one thank you and others for your ideas Rusty. More places should listen to commentators once in awhile, instead of trying to whip them into even more “clap louders”. Because at the end of the day, hate to break it to the mods and owners of blogs, but without supporters and commenters with differing ideas, you will be nothing more than a computer code on the internet making no money. Don’t think it won’t happen. There are literally thousands of once popular blogs, that went on the “don’t like it, don’t come here” chant and they no longer exist. Let’s help the movement, instead of becoming a bowel movement. Rusty, this post should be on the recommended list.
“Refusing to primary challenge him is immoral.”
Amen to that Rusty. I couldn’t agree more. I was heartened to hear Ed Schultz last night suggest that working people may not have a reason to support O in 2012. Ed didn’t go far enough, but it showed a real crack in the corporate facade and I would love to see the left blow that crack wide open…
hortatory: “urging to some course of conduct or action; exhorting; encouraging: a hortatory speech.”
From the Latin hortātōrius.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hortatory
Exactly. That should be a diary.
Some of the hierarchy at FDL need to read this part and adjust their attitudes . . .
“Because at the end of the day, hate to break it to the mods and owners of blogs, but without supporters and commenters with differing ideas, you will be nothing more than a computer code on the internet making no money. Don’t think it won’t happen. There are literally thousands of once popular blogs, that went on the “don’t like it, don’t come here” chant and they no longer exist.”
Ed Schultz is a fighter, I read somewhere that he told Obama “to get his ass to Madison.” I love Ed, he doesn’t take any shit from anybody.
Thanks Rusty etymology is one of my pastimes so i had an idea of the meaning but i’m glad you posted it for others.
What amazes and amuses me is that they fall into these behavior traps after they have been called out for that behavior.
Ed will eventually fold like a rusty lawn chair. Just like he did with the public option and the tax thingie. Give him a little time. Maybe a week.
I figured you knew what it meant, but I thought I’d post the definition for the benefit of the unwashed rabble here who read my diaries without ever realizing that I’m a wild-eyed hortatortionologist without any specific, measurable, or achievable goals.
Maybe, but I don’t think so, not this time.
We know that running someone against Obama is a symbolic act and it will fail. The point is not to win but to create theater that will require the MSM to cover and debate the reasons for the challenge.
Most of the Democrat faithful seem to believe that winning is paramount and ideas are secondary. We have lost the war and our only option now is an insurgency or revolt like what is happening in Madison.
Obama and the Dems know the power of insurgency that is why they will not go anywhere near this revolt.
National Dems not going anywhere near the labor revolt damn near guarantees a primary challenge, IMO. Like you said, there other benefits to it than winning, those benefits alone justify it and make it worth doing.
Is that a Horton Hears A Whoist?
Amen to that.
Culpability: meriting condemnation or blame especially as wrong or harmful ;
now it seems to me that if one actually believes “by the people,for the people, and of the people”, one can’t avoid being culpable for the shedding of innocent blood.
But the truth of the matter is “by the people,for the people, and of the people”, never was a reality but a goal.
There were millions of U.S. citizen’s that spoke out against the Iraq war and the government didn’t give a shit.(And it so ironic-beyond words- to watch the protesters in Baghdad push down the concrete walls protecting the “green zone” and then to hear the gunshots as the al-Maliki government killed it’s own citizens.)
So while the nation IS culpable, individual culpability is another matter IMHO.
And believe me when I say that what has been done in the name of the United States will be returned in a balancing of scale.
I’m with you Rusty. We need to primary him. Did you see these:
http://my.firedoglake.com/letsgetitdone/2011/02/16/congressman-moran-and-the-interactive-voter-choice-system/
http://my.firedoglake.com/letsgetitdone/2011/02/23/how-voters-can-get-control-of-the-2012-virginia-senate-race/
There’ll be one on Elizabeth Warren coming up. And one on the President too.
I remember reading and reccing the first one, I missed the second one.
Thanks for the link, letsgetitdone, I’m looking forward to the Warren and Obama ones.
wayoutwest: “Is that a Horton Hears A Whoist?”
Heh. Close enough. :)
MM also dumped all over Ralph Nader in 2004.
Oh please Ms. Hampsher, Obama has done more to damage the party brand than any primary challenge could ever dream of doing. She sounds like Rep. Conyers when he claimed impeachment of Bush would turn into a “media circus.” As if the universe revolves around what the media does.
Bingo
ConyersBlog was the first political website I started reading and posting on back in 2005. Conyers was all gung ho for impeachment hearings until he got the power to hold them when the Dems won control of Congress and he became Chairman of the Judiciary Committee. Then he started backing off and kept backing off.
They’ll deny that, but posters here who advocate primary challenging Obama get a moderator response very quickly.
In light of that impending denial, you should be ready with a truckload of links. Surely there are examples at hand.
Nevertheless: IMO,
Jane is right. No, sorry, Jane is correct.
No, sorry again, ‘accurate’ is the word I was looking for.
There’s an example right in this thread. Providing a truckload of links isn’t going to be a problem.
Waste of time, money, and energy. The uprisings in NA and the ME are not being done through their governments, they’re being done outside of them. The US government and election system is just shy of being a one party state. The way to fight is outside, with as many people as possible, for as long as possible. F@ck the elections. I’m not wasting my time with any candidate.
Building a primary challenger with enough support is going to take a big name or a lot of money. I’ll be shocked if any big name Democrat runs against the president, except perhaps Dennis Kucinich (Sanders isn’t a Democrat). The second option is asking a lot from people, especially when you’re telling them you don’t expect the candidate to win, but it’ll help make a point the president isn’t that left. Well, if the candidate is covered seriously, the president can easily smooth talk and make empty promises and excuses for the past. When the challenger loses, they’ll then claim America doesn’t want the president to move left. Just like when Democrats lose, the leading Democrats and media don’t argue it was because they didn’t help the working people enough, but rather they weren’t centrist and compromising enough.
Every form of pressure has to be brought to bear. I’ve said many times here that mass protests are the only way out of this, but Obama should not be given a free ride to the nomination. People can support a primary challenge and protest too.
The corporate media is always going to lie, no matter what we do and no matter what happens on any issue. We can’t not do something simply because the media will spin it against us, to hell with the media.
The Left has to be seen by Americans as the voice of the people, as the only alternative to the Republicrat corporate party. Primary challenging Obama would get a lot of national attention, we can expose him as the corporate hack he is and gain a lot of public support.
A think a better way of exposing this, more empowering for each person involved, a better way to meet like minded people, get some exercise, is protests and other forms of community organizing (for what we do want, not just opposition to the president). If it’s just a candidate, people will only be focused on the candidate. Some people obviously will be behind him/her, but I think it’s not as easy for people to think that.
The media coverage, or lack of it, does matter with political candidates. It doesn’t matter so much with widespread popular protests. Again, NA and ME uprisings are perfect examples. Their state run media refuses to show protests, only shows people supporting the current leaders, yet people continue to go out and protest, and more and more.
Also, 1-2 day protests don’t cut it and wouldn’t in any part of the world. That has been the consistent problem with protests in the US for the past 40 years. People expect a lot from the minimum of effort, then complain about predictably bad or lacking media coverage.
Yes, local level community activism and organizing is very important, I’m all for that, people are too isolated, it makes it easier for the government to keep them divided and pit one group against another to maintain control.
Well, the only Democrat I trust is Bernie Sanders, who isn’t one. As I said before, I think even the most “progressive” Democrats are hardly left and will likely bend to pressure to do what’s right for the party. Besides Kucinich, I can’t think of anyone else who may be willing to primary Obama from the left.
You can watch the full segment from his Thursday show, it’s like 12min. In short, “What’s the deal President Obama? I really believe in you. I really really want to believe in you. Show me you will follow through. If you can’t, I just don’t know. [look disappointed].” He could have cut that down to 1-2 minutes and spent the other 10 minutes telling people why they should and how they can help support the protesters in Wisconsin. Instead he blew 12 minutes talking to the president who isn’t watching and doesn’t care what he thinks anyway.
Every single word, Rusty. I’m with you. Every word.
It’s long been obvious to me personally that a primary challenge to this president is a moral obligation. But ever since the Gaza flotilla massacre and the absolutely despicable, horrifying reaction to that event not only by the WH but by almost every single Democrat in Congress, I’m flat-out saying as much to every person I know who leans left and to anyone I encounter who I suspect might lean left: acquaintances, family members, friends, co-workers, neighbors, high-school kids, old-timers; strangers on the bus, at the store, at the coffeeshop and at the bar. Without fail I am polite, calm, respectful, but relentless as I bring up the issue. I patiently explain why: fact after fact, crime after crime, atrocity after atrocity; I systematically remind them of all of it, dates, times, places, the cruel decisions and tragic consequences; the thefts, the betrayals, the ethics violations, the denials of justice, the lack of accountability, the unacceptable corruption, the countless acts of hypocrisy, the pointless deaths, the inexcusable wars, the failed policies, the needless suffering, the massacres, the torture; steadily, seriously, sincerely, for as long as any of them can handle it. I often use the very phrase you wrote above: “We are better than this”. Sure, some laugh; some are unconvinced; some are afraid. I don’t care. “Yes”, I say; we also have to “tend our own gardens”. And “yes, some of us can’t do much”. “But”, I say, “everyone can do SOMETHING”. And I tell them that if I fail, or we fail, I or we will still win, because when we decide to purposefully engage in the struggle for the ideas and the people and the world that we love, we protect the integrity of our own souls and we turn away from the path of moral self-mutilation. And again and again, I tell them that WE HAVE TO, and why WE MUST.
Rusty:
You took the words right of my mind. Thank you for saying what most of us on the left are thinking. You know, a left leaning grass roots organization like A.C.O.R.N. might be an answer; we could call it ACORN2?
Thanks again, Rusty.
A potential candidate might look at what’s happening in Wisconsin and other states of the northern Mid West and be encouraged, but then look to a large, respected progressive forum and be dissuaded. We don’t have to choose the person ourselves, but we should show that our door is wide open to anyone brave enough to take on the establishment. By positing that a primary challenger to Obama is unrealistic or otherwise stifling the advocacy of a primary challenger or third party candidate (to paraphrase – go out and find one yourself instead of just saying we need one) inhibits the organic production just such a candidate.
‘Primary challenge is off the table’ is the new ‘impeachment is off the table’. I’m sure this new one will work out much better than the old one did. Right?
Amen, Rusty! I agree with every last word.
But the people who disagree, including Jane, seem to do so from a practical point of view, not a moral one. Frankly, I think the practical point of view may win out in the end, but I’m not sure what the result will be. I think Obama’s ability to win re-election is compromised every day, by his failure to lead, to take a stand, and to do what is right, and what he said he would do when he ran for President.
Maybe it is late to start running someone from within the Democratic party, but it is possible that someone (maybe even more than one person) will emerge to energize voters, and ride the wave of anger that we are seeing in Wisconsin and other places. And if they are third party, even better!
Ed wasn’t talking to the President, he was talking to us. It’s a rhetorical device and I appreciated hearing him take O to task. That should happen a lot more often.
Are you unfamiliar with the Dump Obama diaries by jeffroby on this very site (MyFDL), as well as those of themalcontent? There was a process started at MyFDL, leading to what I’ll call the tentative formation of a new organization, the New Progressive Alliance. The status of NPA is quite fuzzy, with few details and (AFAIK) nothing like a regular update, even via Twitter.
However, we’ve been told that Cornel West, Cindy Sheehan, and David Swanson are on the steering committee, so I consider that very encouraging.
jeffroby is concerned that NPA will drop it’s attempt to primary Obama, but I think that’s just a pessimistic assumption on his part. I also have a concern, in my view more serious, and that is that NPA will be too aggressive, and try to execute an end game (replacing the Dems) via a straight line approach which just skips a middle game strategy more appropriate to NPA’s humble beginning.
I’ve often decried the stupidity of lesser evilism as a voting strategy, but trying to dump the Dem Party, en masse, instead of peeling off the most progressive 30%-60% more gradually, also strikes me as awfully stupid. My own suggestions for how to go about things rationally can be read in Recommended Short and Long Term Voting Strategies for the Dump Obama Movement.
Well, we shall see what the steering committee comes up with. Hopefully, they will be smart enough to hire a competent political game theorist, like Buena de Mesquita, who has a track record for the CIA twice as successful as the CIA’s own analysts.
I have a number of comments:
* Obama is a very evil president and deserves, under the doctrine of command responsibility, to be hanged every bit as much as General Yamashita did.
* He’s more evil than GWB, because GWB didn’t campaign against his evil policies before embracing them.
* Obama will likely appoint better justices to the Supreme Court than would any of the GOP candidates.
* I don’t embrace the notion of a primary challenge because I consider it a waste of time.
* I would love to see the formation of a progressive party that works both inside and outside the Democratic Party somewhat as the Tea Party does with the GOP.
I’ll echo everyone else here and say, great post, Rusty.
I’m with you for a primary challenge.
We need to get rid of this Obama yutz.
wigwam put it well:
“He’s more evil than GWB, because GWB didn’t campaign against his evil policies before embracing them.”
Rusty, I think you are a very good writer, because you are blessed (cursed?) with a fine sense of moral outrage at all the wrongdoing around you, and you don’t suffer “Better the Devil You Know” Obama Democrats.
Thanks for this diary. Recommended.
As someone who was obliquely accused of being an HB Gary operative who should be “monitored” and looked at with disapproval, I will just quickly write what I think and then wander away.
I think Obama’s foreign and domestic policies are unraveling before our eyes. I think so much shit is going to happen in the next few months that Obama is going to be on the hot seat, and being the corporatist that he is, he won’t have anywhere to turn. I think there is a trustworthy individual waiting in the wings who would challenge Obama from the left if he/she knew that people would get behind him or her, but with the PTB in the “liberal” ‘sphere writing that it’s “Obama or nothing,” well, who would step up? Others would pull out the “Nader spoiler” card.
I think, in the future, I’m going to Mosquito Cloud, where hopefully, I won’t be accused of being paid “$250 an hour to spread this shit on social networking sites and in blog comments.” I bid you adieu and leave you with this photo of Trumka who is who is “on the receiving end of every bit of government/corporate bullshit they can possibly throw at him:”
http://oneclick.indiatimes.com/photo/02jJ8qE2yH7Oz?q=Barack+Obama
If I can agree with billthechowchow without putting words into his mouth:
As we watch the spark in Wisconsin that’s turning into a flame by dint of the winds from the ME, it gives lie to the many Dems who would have us believe that polling and voter registration demographics rule out any challenges to Obama, or maybe even a third party. Discontent is gathering steam, and once the food and gas prices that are almost certain now spike, unemployment stays high, and the projected increase in GDP that just got downsized stays puny, people will be more agitated.
We can hope they begin to ask the right questions about why this is all happening, and why Obama still genuflects before banking and corporate creeps. And why we are asked to share austerity when Wall Street mavens aren’t; and why the fucked up wars continue when they make us left safe and cost us so incredibly in blood (ours and theirs) and treasure.
I’d hope a couple things about a primary challenge: that the challenger is better than Obama (not too many guarantees on that) and isn’t a Demagogue in sheep’s clothing, and that if the challenger is a good one, he/she can make sure to show Americans that we are embroiled in a class war, and give reasons for more than just Dems to get involved in a movement against feudalism and oligarchy.
If indeed a primary derailed a Democratic win, SCOTUS appointments and abortion legality would be the two areas of concern for a Republican win; but in all else, it would mean Dems would be fighting back, and not giving such continual free passes as this Prez has gotten.
And I am sick to death of Dems who say progress is always measured in baby steps. Bullshit. We need sweeping changes, and it may be by 2012 that we are collectively ready for them.
I’m gonna skip the morality part for now, Rusty, until there is someone arguably more moral to go against Obama. But the notion that we can do better I’d reframe as We must do better!.
Well, I’m not only blogging, I ran in 2010 as a Green Party candidate for US Congress, MI-12, against Sander Levin, D, who just voted for EVERY war funding bill this year. I decided to run at the last minute, I was soo disgusted with the Ds, and so frustrated with myself, just ranting, and not DOING anything. I figured, I could at least change the conversation, and I did, to the point that Levin had actually added an “environment” tag to his website. I had very little money, and my organization was miniscule and lacked tech support and ground troops, some of which was a result of my late entry into the race, some because of the usual restraints against third party candidates, and also because people who were anti-war, and held the same core beliefs I espoused, were scammed into supporting and voting for the D (there was a rumor-planted by D ops, I’m sure, that the Rs were going to “pour money” into the campaign against him, and OH MERCY ME can’t vote for a third party, the R might win”-see his pro-war, pro-corporatist votes and tell me where THAT vote got ya- not to mention he won by a roughly 83% margin!!). I hope to run again in ’12, I plan on getting a better organization, and I hope to get some support from fellow lefties here.
I have to agree with Jane that there simply isn’t anyone in the Democrat Party willing or able to challenge Obama for the nomination next year. The far right DLC controls the party forever. We have to accept that what we knew as the Democratic Party is dead and buried.
This does not mean we true progressives should give up. The Green Party is going through its selection process for running a presidential candidate next year, and we should expend every effort to help their candidates. We’ll never be able to win true political power unless we challenge those who already wield it and make them realize the consequences of forsaking the public.
Why do you think I joined the Greens last year? I’d rather help build up a political party that represents the public than waste one more minute, one more dime on the Democrats.
It is an abuse of site rules and moderator powers to selectively enforce the rules against only those who advocate for politicians and activism that run in opposition to the Democrats. There is nothing in the rules that says we cannot promote political candidates and actions outside the Democrat Party. Until or unless those rules change to state that specifically, then we are not in violation and the moderators who abuse their powers to intimidate us should be removed from their positions of power.
You’re not going to find such leadership here, not from site owners and moderators. That’s why I invited you to post on my blog. There is too much danger in being banned from here, blacklisted from the veal pen sites. We’re too restricted. As the owner of my own blog, I can at least rest assured that standards remain consistent and fair.
The dramatic revolts in Libya and elsewhere in the Middle East seem to be prompted by desperation, a realization by the people that their situation can no longer support cowardice and the timidity of working for “marginal” progress. Here we have progressives like Michael Moore making documentaries condemning the system and in the next breath repeating the mantras of “Give Barry a chance” and “the perfect is the enemy of the good.”
I guess we have to wait till the veneer of immunity is removed and the nation faces real devastation. It is clear however from world events that day is not far away. But for 2012 primaries either a standard bearer will come forth for us to support or we will have the second Obama term. And yes, with the catalog of betrayals you enumerate, defeating Obama is paramount and the devil take the consequences!
Hey man that is only condescending if you aren’t already doing those things.
But I have a question, where is the candidate? President Obama was already running at this point exactly because he was kind of outside the mainstream of the party. That is what it takes to win. Remember that the CW at this point in the last cycle was that Sec. State Clinton was going to run the table.
What is it you want, a different president or to make a gesture? If it is the first, you and anyone who wants that really are quickly running out of time. That is not snark, that it political reality.
If it is the latter, well you can wait around about another 6 months, but at that point the window for even a gesture candidate is going to close.
If you think that given the challenges you’re going to face in your effort is going to leave you any time to ha-range us here, go talk to Malcontent. As much as I disagree with him, he is actually out there trying to do the work. How do I know? Because it leave him no time to be here.
That you think you can do both successfully just shows how little you really know about what it takes to run a successful losing campaign, let alone a winning one.
If you (we) are so upset, we should just vote for the 3rd party candidate. While I agree with the sentiments of the OP, Jane’s assessment, in near-term political terms, is correct.
In base political terms, even a primary challenger doesn’t really send the message. If we run a challenger, and they get wiped out, the DNC and Obama will still expect us to come home in November. We always do.
I said it last year (and it got me banned from Kos), if you really want to send a message: don’t vote for him. Not in the primary, but in the fall. Don’t vote for them, don’t organize for them, don’t write letters for them, don’t volunteer for them.
Do all those things, but do it for a candidate and a party you believe in. That is the only way you have a chance to have your voice heard and your views represented by your government.
The idea that Obama was ever “kind of outside the mainstream of the party” is a delusional idea that reflects people’s inability to realize that it’s all a game carried out way over our heads and that working within the Democratic party, or even participating in our rigged electoral system, will never achieve anything. Indeed, they want us to do that. It keeps us fruitlessly occupied.
http://www.zcommunications.org/obama-as-predicted-by-paul-street
Focusing energy on mounting a Democratic party primary challenge to Obama is just spinning wheels, participating in a charade, falling for the game, not to mention totally counterproductive. And the idea that it is somehow radically “progressive” to try to “primary” Obama — as this muddled post is advocating — is just plain absurd.
The energy, the contagious moral example and purpose, of the people in Egypt, in Madison, should be instructive but apparently not. Change comes from the bottom, not the top. It’s social issues, social movements that count. Not party politics. (And I believe I have even heard Jane Hamsher say so.)
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20090810_nader_was_right_liberals_are_going_nowhere_with_obama/
I’m going to watch it all, I only saw a minute or two of it on video somewhere, I think it was at DU.
It’s done all the time in diaries and FP posts, it’s effective.
What a waste of good white space.
Mischaracterizations of Mz. Hamsher, mods, Rayne and her comment, Pups and progressives . . . . picking a fight where there really isn’t one . . .
There’s something that animals and little boys and girls learn when they are very young.
You don’t shit where you eat.
End of story.
I don’t think a Dem senator will, if someone challenges Obama for the nomination it will probably be a House Dem or former governor.
That’s exactly what we all need to be doing. The WH response to the Gaza flotilla massacre was particularly horrifying, but it’s typical of those bastards. Great comment, mojada, very well said. Thank you.
We need a nationwide, grassroots organization like ACORN, definitely, like that or like MoveOn, but solidly progressive in membership and agenda and much more aggressive.
Hi bill, I agree. The main barrier right now is to overcome the groupthink that a primary challenge is unrealistic. 30 years of retreat have conditioned too many progressives to think that way–any major challenge to the power structure is “unrealistic”, so they don’t even try. The PTB don’t have to defeat us, we keep defeating ourselves because of that attitude.
These Americans burned themselves to death in protest of the war in Vietnam:
Alice Herz, March 16, 1965
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Herz
Norman Morrison, November 2, 1965
http://www.angelfire.com/nb/protest/morr.html
Roger LaPorte, November 9, 1965
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Allen_LaPorte
Florence Beaumont, October 15, 1967
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florence_Beaumont
George Winne, May 10, 1970
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Winne,_Jr.
Norman Morrison’s self-immolation outside the Pentagon in 1965 – below the office of then Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara – was, sadly, not the start of the end of the Vietnam War, which continued for another ten years.
Thank you for some semblance of sanity and truth.
I am no longer a dem, but a Green.
That’s MY action.
May Madison,WI go viral across the nation.
David Dayen has some video posted that’s just bringing tears of joy to my eyes as I watch it.
Again, thanks for your spot on comment.
N thanks Kelly Canfield, for yours, up above . . . too.
*G*
Pelosi took impeachment off the table, she had the power to do that, but no one in Washington has the power to forbid a primary challenge of Obama. They can denounce it and resist it, but we can overcome their opposition.
So, what is is you think we should be doing? Really? You think there is a revolution like North Africa in the near future for the US? Now that is delusional.
If you think it is all that “rigged” then I can understand that why you think it is useless to try. But I am here to tell you as someone whose spent his life in electoral politics and who has a lot of a family whose done the same that you are flatly wrong.
In fact your attitude is one that keeps things from changing because instead of getting in there and doing the hard and frustrating work of making things change you have a built in excuse of “its all rigged!”. You’re just like the socialists and Communists I knew as a kid who all talked about “when the revolution comes” but never really seemed to get around to the work of bringing it about.
You want to change the world? Or our nation? Well roll up your freaking sleeves and get to work. I’ve detailed for literally years here and elsewhere why it is the best use of real effort to change the Democratic party rather than try to do it from the outside, but if you think I am completely wrong, well knock yourself out. I won’t even say I told you so when you find out that talking big about revolution and change is very different from actually achieving it.
Thank you, dhfsfc. Tolerating the corrupt status quo isn’t practical, it’s suicide.
I prefer a third party movement, but as I’ve said in this thread and elsewhere, a primary challenge or any other action that challenges the corrupt establishment should be pursued.
You know that won’t send a message, at least not one that is going to be heard. I am sorry to say that, because I think you’re sincere in your desire to be heard, but that is not the way.
The whole vote to send a message thing does not work if it does not get reported on. Take the folks who voted “public option” I can’t find a major blog or news outlet that reported on any one anywhere doing that let alone the numbers of them doing so. It was a wasted effort. In some cases considering the choice on the ballot the lack of a vote from the left for a Democratic candidate helped put radical and reactionary Republicans in office.
Is that the all the fault of the protest voter? Of course not, but wining an election is a lot of little things coming together and this little thing, this set of votes, was denied the more acceptable candidate.
It is your vote use it as you like, but don’t assume for a minute that by not voting for the Democratic candidate you are sending a message that anyone in the Democratic party or the White House will here.
Yes, I read and recc malcontent’s and jeffroby’s diaries. I support what they’re doing, we all understand the difficulties involved, but the important thing is to keep working on this, to keep advocating it, and to keep publicizing it here at FDL and elsewhere.
Thank you for the link, metamars, I’m going to read your suggestions for voting strategies, I hope everyone else here will also read them. Letsgetitdone also posts good diaries about voting system issues, I encourage everyone to read him too.
I fully agree with your comments, wigwam. In regard to supporting a primary challenge, people don’t have to actively support it if they think it’s a waste of time, but they can vote against Obama in a primary.
Thank you, nycterrierist. Yes, wigwam nailed it.
What amazes me is that so many people still believe that the Political War in Amerika is not over. It is over and we the People lost we are now an occupied country with a Vichy government. If you don’t know what Vichy means look it up.
Resistance and insurrection start in many ways for many reasons as we are seeing in Wisconsin and other states. Symbolic acts and theatre can and do spark revolt, one man’s self immolation sparked revolt throughtout the Middle East.
The revolt in Madison is growing, Scott Walker was booed out of a restaurant last night, the State Police have refused orders to clear the Capital and joined the revolt.
The reactionary forces are regrouping and will begin their counterattack soon. When this happens i believe it will galvanize the resistance and hopefully spread the revolt across the country.
Yes, I saw that inference that you were an HB Gary operative and posted a comment in defense of you. Banning missling was uncalled for, she’s provocative but she posted a lot of good diaries in the short time she was here.
I understand your frustration, lefttown, but I hope you keep posting here, we need to expand the influence of progressives here, not reduce it. Every voice matters.
I can’t add anything to that, great post and important insights, wendy, thank you.
If we had more progressives like you, julia, we’d be unstoppable. Thank you for all you’ve done and will do, please keep us informed about your potential run in 2012, I’ll do whatever I can to help, and others here will be very supportive as well.
We’re going to find out soon enough, I think the labor protests make a primary challenge much more likely. Obama’s silence about it speaks volumes, more and more working people are seeing that he’s not on their side and never has been. I hope the Green Party gains more support, I’ve contributed what I can to Green candidates, we need a viable third party in this country.
Of course, but my point was that she (they) also put political gamesmanship above morality.
“Newtweet” from MMFlint (please refer to above):
“Newt becomes 1st top Repub 2 say the “I” word http://mmflint.me/hzBkjE My predict: Obama’ll reach out& pre-emptively offer 2 impeach himself”
O, if only O would _____________…
(OT) Somebody please fix MoveOn L.A. rally’s audio, please!!!
Hi arctor. I don’t think Obama is going to be reelected, conditions are going to keep getting worse and he’s to blame for much of it, he refuses to do what needs to be done. I just don’t see any downside to a primary challenge, not doing it guarantees four more years of betrayal.
Jane and Rayne are big girls and i think they can handle constructive criticism, if not that’s their problem.
This is not the end it is the beginning of the story and we will see who is going to be a part of the solution and who is going to be part of the problem.
Sometimes all you have to eat is shit.
Sometimes you’re hungry enough that shit (or at least church relief services food) starts looking and smelling really good…
Thanks for this, metamars.
The lack of regular updates regarding the NPA is being addressed (created a template at 4 this morning) – along with roughly 100 other things. Could sure use your help and that of anyone (and everyone!) here who is committed to Progressive (capitalized, sans quotation marks :) ideals. Rusty? Wendy? ubetcha? wigwam? wayoutwest? arctor? Others? How about it? Many of those commenting here participated in the nomination and voting last fall to which metamars refers; precious few have volunteered to help, and help is desperately needed.
To be included in what I am hoping will be the approximately weekly mailing of The NPA Update, mail me: admin_at_themalcontent_dot_com If you can volunteer some time, say so in your note, with some indication of the realms in which you are most interested and the time you can devote each week.
I want to the very clear about something: FDL was terrific in giving the NPA a place to take form last fall. The family of sites remained officially neutral as regards the process itself, and I understand the need for it to do so. That said, I do think FDL is missing an opportunity within the broader Progressive community.
I have been extremely reluctant to create a Web presence for the NPA – not because I am fooling myself and thinking it would steal away any appreciable number of views from these sites (it remains a tiny movement at this point), but because I feel a connection here, and believe FDL could easily maintain its overall neutrality with a disclaimer at the top of any “home” it might afford the NPA, while simultaneously growing its own, already positive, reputation for activism. A win-win about which I would welcome a discussion with Jane.
I don’t happen to share the belief of many, that everyone working for FDL is of the Democrats-or-the-highway mentality. Maybe I’m just naive, but if that were the case, I think it would be reflected here just as it surely as it is at DKos, DemocraticUnderground, or any number of other “lockstep sites,” and the simple fact is, that’s not the case.
So here’s hoping FDL will at minimum exercise the “right of first refusal” I’m trying to extend, and I’ll say right here that there will be no hard feelings or negativity if it does refuse. When we are all finished arguing with one another, there is no denynig that there is an overall sense of kinship here at the Lake. We’re all activists to one extent or another, and should all remember it, take pride in it, and – I believe – put it above all else.
The NPA steering committee is a positive development, their input already leading to a host of good ideas and – more important – serious networking across the Progressive community. The basic premise expressed in the nomination diaries metamars mentioned have held: Primary Obama and convert the energy of that challenge into a lasting voice for Progressive issues, because there simply is not a reliable, accountable one to be found anymore at the national level.
The reasons for this can be traced to one specific tradition of American politics, one that, time and again, has taken the air out of movements that fostered dissent, and which might well have taken us in more “European” (read: 21st Century) directions, had the tradition instead been kicked to the curb, where is belongs.
I’m speaking specifically of the practice of primary challengers standing up at the convention (or long before) and “throwing their support” to the incumbent.
This practice represents movement co-option at its most basic. It has been the price one must pay if one intends to remain active in The Party – “Republican” or “Democratic” (for those still laboring under the misapprehension that there’s a difference) – after their primary bid has failed.
Until now, the so-called “popular wisdom” has been that failure to uphold this tradition – sometimes called “rallying ’round the victor” – will be political suicide and will rip The Party in two, as Rusty’s diary cites. That wisdom has been strongly enforced by The Party’s
thugspenchant for putting out to pasture anyone who dared challenge it.This tradition must be called out for the establishment-perpetuating bullshit it is, and it must end.
In 2012.
Think of access to the electoral process as a funnel.
At the beginning, “anyone” can supposedly “throw their hat in the (w)ring(er).”
But the flow is quickly – and undemocratically – winnowed down, through a process of closed primaries (your tax dollars at work, limiting your access to government); back-room dealmaking (do you really believe we are not seeing daily – in word and in deed – the price Barack Obama had to pay to secure the Democratic Party’s nomination?); and marginalization of anyone “outside the mainstream.”
This might be okay, expect that “the mainstream” now means the 2 percent of those who control 90 percent of the wealth, and therefore control the definition of “democracy” here in the (supposed) cradle of same.
It is certainly not be the only tool in our arsenal, but leveraging that electoral process and is one way of giving voice to those who understand where the mainstream actually flows.
It flows through Madison, through Columbus, through Providence.
It flows through hospital emergency rooms where people with no other option go to die.
It flows through manufacturing plants where workers are handed envelopes informing themthey are no longer needed because their job is now done overseas.
It flows through the bloodstained sands and streets of Iraq and Afghanistan.
It’s time to re-establish exactly what democracy is, what the mainstream is and what it is demanding, and who is preventing those demands from being heard – let alone enacted.
I hope you’ll contribute whatever time you can in helping the NPA create the cohesive voice Progressives so desperately need in America. Today – and tomorrow.
FDL–Love It Or Leave It. That has a very Nixonian ring to it.
FDL must be exempt from criticism, criticizing is betrayal, all hail Mz. Hamsher and the mods, they are infallible, they are founts of wisdom and our job here is to agree with everything they say.
Sometimes you are really pathetic, Larue.
Bill, get realisistic. “Public Option” was a tiny movement. But you have to start somewhere.
If nothing else it added to the mailing list, and helped identify a group of people who see right through this president and his sold-out party.
There are hundreds of similar groups coalescing around the country right now, thanks to the national party’s complete lack of backbone when it comes to workers’ rights.
The Democrats will reap what they’ve sown, and if you think what what BO was able to do with social media in 2008 was something, just til you see what Progressives do with it in 2012.
For me, the alarm went off the day he claimed that he never said there would be no mandate in the health care bill or it had to have a public option. It was all downhill from that day on, bill after bill.
The primary should have been pushed hard when George Soros was rumbling a few months back, but everyone got all excited when a few bills went through in the lame duck as I am sure the white house calculated would happen.
At least we are finding out who is really left and who is just a Democratic party cheerleader throughout the scope of the media.
A Vichy government, that nails it.
Spot on as usual, Rusty.
It is much more important to save the unwashed masses than it is to save the party, IMO.
Judging from your list of detractors, I would say you are on the right track.
Congratulations, Dog. You’re going to vote again for a “Democratic” president who authorizes the assassination of American citizens, who’s complicit in war crimes and torture, who protects Bush Administration thugs and Wall Street criminals instead of prosecuting them, who’s abused power and obstructed justice ever since he lied his way through his oath of office, who did nothing when five rightwing freaks on the Supreme Court gutted what’s left of fair elections in this country, who praised the Chamber of Commerce after its savage blitzkrieg of attack ads decimated his party, who will do whatever he considers necessary to appease corporate fascists so he can “win” reelection.
Obama is immoral and so is anyone who still supports him. You can bark all you want about strategy, Dog, but you’re barking isn’t going to change that.
Well said, Michael.
Agree completely, only hoping we can find anyone viable willing to stand up. BTW, given that the pundits and media completely ignored the effect that those Democrats and Independents who walked away from Obama and the Dem Party in 2010 and sat out the election had on the Rethugs “victory,” it is fair to blame Wisconsin and similar travesties ocurring on Obama, as well!
I wasn’t aware of that, thank you for posting their names, Evelyn, they are worthy of remembrance.
What are you actually doing to prevent that from happening? Whose the candidate? How much money have you raised? How many experienced staffers have you hired for this?
I and Rayne ask you the practical questions that you absolutely have to know the answers to if you are going to make any kind of difference and you distract and deflect from them with snide comments and accusations of immorality.
If I wanted to play your game I could say it is immoral to say you have an imperative but fail to do the things that are needed to achieve it. But really I am a lot more interested in your concrete steps.
So, again, what candidate?
What staff?
How much money?
What is your win number in each primary?
Who are the committed base voters?
Who are the persuadeable voters?
What cost in each State?
These are the things that will determine if you succeed or fail and if you don’t have the answers to any of those questions then you are just bloviating about change you want, not change you want enough to actually do the work for.
So, just give me the first three, though I’d give some extra credit for knowing what number four is, and tons and tons of it if you can tell me what it is in Iowa, New Hampshire and South Carolina.
You want to be electoral activist, you need to know these things.
Thank you for taking the time to provide that information, malcontent, I hope this diary generates more support for your efforts.
Yeah, I remember that defining moment too, and it’s damn well been downhill every day since then.
Mal! Hey Bud, let me take care of something I need to do first.
I totally owe you an apology. I was an asshole to you for doing what I tell people to do. That was not cool and I regret that I did it and will endeavor in the future not to do it again. You are out there trying to make it work and while I disagree with what you’re doing, I do have respect for the effort you’re making. I am sorry for my words and behavior.
That said, it still does nothing to take away from my point. Not voting is a really crappy way of sending a message. Now, with Social Media, you might be able to tie in with enough awareness that it gets some attention. I am still doubtful, but, hey, SM is still new enough that it might surprise me.
I actually think that the problem will not be in sending a message but in whether or not it is heard the way you want it to be.
Anyway keep fighting the good fight Hoss, at least your doing more than just talk-talk.
BTW – Will there be a candidate from you guys? Not to be a dick but time is running out for an outsider to make a serious challenge. You need to get that face out there and soon if you want to be credible.
Cheers,
Thank you, cole65. The detractors are always the same people, they don’t seem to realize that the more they detract, the more support they lose.
Woof! (tail wagging — ears perked up)…
Thank you, Rusty. Your diaries are always inspiring and spot-on.
Heh.
I’m a narcissist and many other unsavory things, according to Larue. He hasn’t commented in any of my diary threads for a long time, but he must have considered it necessary to warn everyone about me again.
There will be a candidate (perhaps more than one), and though time may look tight in terms of what’s considered the “traditional” calendar, there’s actually lots of it when one studies primary filing deadlines.
Thanks for the kind words, I know you work hard for what you believe, too, and just to be clear, I’m not advocating not voting. Whether writing in a name, a phrase, or pulling a lever, one is still casting a vote.
I think we will, and the primary challenge will get big media coverage, they won’t be able to resist peddling their “Democrats in disarray” narrative. They can go ahead and do that, but Americans will see that the Left is fighting for them against the corporate political establishment.
But what do you add? Hmm? Do you donate to keep the site going? Do you think your very occational posts somehow keep the readership up?
That is kind of the point. It is fine to have a critical opinion of the folks who run the site, but doing so on their dime is more than a little unseemly and rude. Personally I say go for it, it just whacks you credibility and makes you that much less likely to achieve your goals.
Go ahead, talk shit about Jane and the mod’s, MyFDL will just become yet another in a string of sites for you where no one cares about what you have to say because it is so vituperative.
Oh, BTW, you ought to take this shtick on the road to DK4, they love them some Jane bashing over there, you might find an appreciative crowd.
Yes, they always do. Thank you for reading my diary and commenting, comfychair.
Well, my point about time is not when the primaries are held, but when the candidate(s) step up and start making their case. I figure you figure that you can take advantage of the anger on the Left to catupulte your candidate to prominince (assuming they are not already a known politician) but the fight with the Republicans over the budget and the almost for sure shut down of the government is going to help the president a lot.
With all that going on you’re going to have a hard time getting the attention that your candidate will need to be credible. Waiting too late will not give people enough time to know this person and see them as viable. More than anything else you’re going to need that, as the default position is going to be a vote for President in any primary or caucus. If you can’t win one of the first three primaries it is going to all over by Super Tuesday.
Also, and I pretty sure that you’ve done this, but if you are going after a non-traditional candidate, spend some time doing your own oppo research. What is going to come out about them that you will have to deal with. Don’t plan for it to not come out, it always does, and if you get caught flat footed then it could be the end.
Cheers,
Thank you Mr. Bill.
Bravo.
I see that I too have now been mislabeled and mischaracterized . . .
I guess he’s a one trick shit disturber . . . sad.
Back to boycotting poor use of white space . . .
Ahh, lefttown, you know us “operatives” love the smell, texture and taste of a freshly killed bone (hence this thread’s title).
IMO, what separates the Meat-Bringers from the tea-snuffin’ over-domesticated wuss-pups is that we grow, evolve, learn from our mistakes and resolve to improve for the next effort. It’s all in the Timing, the Flow and the Perspective. And thankfully, there’s still time — it’s still not too late.
(heh “…Choke me in the shallow water/Before I get too deep…” Edie Brickell/New Bohemians
No worries. This is Rusty’s pattern. Anyone that disagrees with him is bad. He rarely answers questions about how he is going to achieve his glorious goals, which tends to mean that he has no idea.
One hour and not a single answer to a single question. More for the same questions that Rayne asked. Just ad hominen attacks.
Kind of sucks when you get exposed as poser, doesn’t it Rusty?
Thank you very much for the corrected information, Evelyn. IMO, the names of the above deserve to be added to the names immortalized on the Vietnam Veterans Memorial in Washington, D.C. — one of the few D.C.-based memorials I’ve yet to see personally (I lived there as a young child until we moved to Texas in 1967).
Yeah, I have no credibility here. That’s why no one ever reads my diaries.
You don’t like the message, so you’re attacking the messenger. Well you can attack me all you want, Dog, and so can Larue, the message will be heard, it’s echoing across this country, it’s the sound of citizens speaking truth to power because none of your “Democratic” heroes will.
Rusty, for what it’s worth, I make a point of reading your posts. It’s posters like you that keep me coming back to MyFDL.
Thank you, Alternate ID.
You have some credibility now, but I am just saying that this one tack you use all the time wears thin. It always does.
People always like to read shit stirring diaries. That does not mean they want a steady diet of it.
Personally I think your goal is not to change things but to be recognized as “some one important” it shows in how defensive you get. It also shows in the fact that you don’t know anything about the process. I’ve been waiting for an hour on who your candidate is, how much money you or an organization you’re part of has raised for this as yet unannounced candidate. I am still waiting for you to tell my how much staff your campaign has.
All you’ve done here is be a jerk to the people who provide you a platform.
Oh, and while you do have a group of loyal fans that agree with your aims (some of which actually try to get things done) don’t kid yourself that you are bringing in readers here. You just don’t produce enough regular content for people to say “I wonder what Rusty has to say today” because most days there you don’t say anything. If you want to be influential you have to bring in people all the time, you have to write all the time.
Right now what you have a good solid choir to preach to. Nothing wrong with that, but it does not move the public or the process very much.
You might even want to start writing under your own name. I know it is a big step, but I will tell you that you’ll get picked up by more outlets when you do. Just a thought.
Finally the guy who is calling people immoral saying that he is being attacked is pretty damned funny! Maybe comedy is your real calling?
Cheers,
Bill, I’ll attempt to respond to your above questions by stating what I’ll attempt to do electorally for the 2012 U.S. election IF ALL ELSE FAILS:
Advocate for appropriate alternatives, beg for Bernie Sanders to reconsider running (and personally consider writing him in on the ballot if he doesn’t), stump for Ralph Nader if no one else will person-up to the challenge (he already stated that he’d be willing to run again), and try to prepare and be in readiness for 2016.
Evelyn, please see my “reply” post at the bottom of the thread — it didn’t get “re-sorted” properly — and thanks!
Bill Egnor: “One hour and not a single answer to a single question. More for the same questions that Rayne asked. Just ad hominen attacks.
Kind of sucks when you get exposed as poser, doesn’t it Rusty?”
You’re lying, Dog. Rayne asked one question, I replied very quickly and asked her a question. 24 hours ago. No reply from Rayne yet.
As for your questions, it’s a waste of time to answer your questions about strategy, etc, etc, etc, because the point I keep making and the point you keep refusing to address is that primary challenging Obama is a moral issue.
You keep refusing to acknowledge that supporting Obama is immoral.
I’m not just “calling it immoral”, it IS immoral.
Bill, I realize the major thrust of your posts are aimed at the thread’s original poster (rather than myself), but I just want to say that anyone reading this thread 6 months down the road will easily be able to detect and pick up on precisely where and from who the defensiveness is apparent. And this sort of reactive, borderline-combative response is a big part of what turns me completely off about blogging in general and discourages me from posting anywhere, period. IMO, it’s counter-productive. I’m only replying here and now in the hope that my doing so might defer some of the IMO over-the-top replies in the future.
The above stated, by all means, kudos to Jane and others for not pulling a “PuffPost” and succumbing to embedded ads and/or selling out. Moreover, where is it stated that donations are crucial to keep this blog alive — and, speaking strictly for myself — dare I say it — of what value, if any, is our so-called “free content”, then?
So then where do we go from here (please read my other post re: the upcoming 2012 election…
I see, so let me provisionally give you acceptance of that. Easy, now how are you going to do it? You see all this big talk is nothing if you don’t know the next step. It’s immoral, so what? If there are no next steps, then it does not matter does it? It is just kvetching and bitching.
It just standing up and saying I am right and because of it things should change! That is always how paper revolutionaries talk.
If you don’t have a plan for making your goals come true, from making sure the immoral (your words) choice is not the only choice then you have nothing. And you have gone out of your way to prove you don’t have those things, you are the King of Empty. Good for you, I knew you had it in you!
Full-disclosure grammar correction:
” …the major thrust of your posts are aimed at the thread’s original poster…”
s/b …posts is aimed…
(cuz after all, I am Better Than This (hyuk)!
Dog: “It’s immoral, so what?”
Thank you for confirming that you don’t give a damn about morality.
A MyFDL editor doesn’t give a damn about morality, Jane must be very proud of you, Dog, you’re an inspiration to everyone here.
Jesus of Nazareth didn’t have a strategy, kvetching and bitching was all he did, all of his moral teachings are worthless because he didn’t organize a party to overthrow the Romans.
Keep digging that hole deeper, Dog.
recommended. damn fine post.
Thank you, selise.
JMO, I agree with a lot of what you’re saying about the policies of our government, but I think you’re howling at the moon.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but you’re basing your premise on a Democrat running against Obama, right?
Not gonna happen. (period. end of story)
I’m not even going to waste any time thinking about voting for Obama in 2012. I’m voting for whomever the Green candidate is.
I’ll vote for, and probably volunteer for local, and state-wide Dems, like I’ve done since 2002 (unless Obama turns me so far off, I won’t waste my time, like the last election)
Don’t hold your breath about a challenge Rusty
I know. My point was he could have made that point to the viewers (pretending to talk to the president) within 2 minutes and spent the other 10 minutes firing people up to become involved and informing them how to be.
Oh, so you want the Democratic candidate for president to be the Messiah?
Dude you’re talking about politics here, you have to do strategy. Nothing just happens. The folks in Madison didn’t just magically appear, there was a focused strategy to turn them out. The Dem senators didn’t just each think, “I’ll leave” they worked out a strategy.
My point is that you don’t have one. So you are either using hope as a strategy or you are expecting someone else to do it all for you.
Either way that is pretty week.
Finally who the fuck appointed you the arbiter of morality? Do you eat meat? Well then dude, you’re immoral. That meat you eat was fed grain that could have fed starving kids. How can you possibly live with yourself when you bite that steak knowing that some child in Africa could have eaten for months on what that cow was fed?
See, it is easy to be a morality bully, and it really does no good. What does real tangible good it acting and to act you have to have a strategy. You don’t, hell you don’t even know what the parts of a strategy are.
Tell me Big Guy, how do you determine the win number in a precinct? In a District? In a State?
Hi John. I think it’s going to happen, but as I’ve said many times, a third party movement may be a more effective way to generate real change. Thank you for your support of the Green Party, and thank you for reading my diary and commenting.
You’re making a spectacle of yourself, Dog.
It’s spelled D-A-W-G, dawg.
“People always like to read shit stirring diaries. That does not mean they want a steady diet of it.”
lol. rusty’s writing is quite tame compared to the posts jane used to write. i’m going to guess that you haven’t been reading fdl all that long (or don’t know the history). you might want to google “Ole 60 Grit” at fdl to check out just one example of that history — and put rusty’s very mild post into the context of the site he posted it.
geeze.
Bill had a screen name gimmick, he called himself “Something the Dog Said”, so I call him Dog.
p.s. for anyone offended because they perceive criticism in this post, i recommend reading jane’s take on what to do when there is a disagreement — a moral disagreement — with someone on “your side.”
http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/04/keith-olbermann-gives-contradictory-statement-to-glenn-greenwald/
Heh. Jane took no prisoners, there were no dull moments in the early days of FDL when Jane and Christy were making this website a must-read. TRex was great too.
Logged back in just to post this excerpt, because IMO it’s pretty “telling”:
(credited to NPR staff and wires — all rights reserved)
Obama: Legitimacy Lost, Gadhafi Must Leave
Ratcheting up the pressure, President Barack Obama on Saturday said Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi has lost his legitimacy to rule and urged the Libyan leader to leave power immediately.
It was the first time Obama has called for Gadhafi to step down, coming after days of bloodshed in Libya. Gadhafi has vowed to fight to the end to maintain his four-decade grip on power in the North African country.
“When a leader’s only means of staying in power is to use mass violence against his own people, he has lost the legitimacy to rule and needs to do what is right for his country by leaving now,” the White House said in a statement, summarizing Obama’s telephone conversation with German Chancellor Angela Merkel.
Until now, U.S. officials have held back from such a pronouncement, insisting it is for the Libyan people to determine who their leader should be…
(end of excerpt)
So is the above the um, “criteria” for all to adhere to, then?
Mind you, he said “leader”…
Wendy, I couldn’t have said it better myself. Thanks.
I understand what Rusty is saying about the effectiveness (or lack of it) of progressives. And I agree with it.
But surely you have to completely ignore the Democratic Party at this stage and just focus on something new and untainted?
You live in a one party state which no longer adheres to the rule of law. The change you need will only come in a form similar to Egypt (actually, I suspect the Libyan model is more likely, only much bloodier).
So really, where does a “primary” in the one party state system get you? The time where that might have been an adequate response passed 40 years ago. It’s an entirely different scale of problem now.
As to the site being “defensive”. Just ignore them? The site “establishment” are way too small in number to bother the community so they are essentially irrelevant. I’ve not seen any evidence of conversation actually being shut down here so let’s just converse and ignore the few snide remarks that it provokes.
My mistake. Carry on.
I really, really wish I could agree with this post. Unfortunately, I feel that the most negative aspects of human nature have gained the upper hand in our society, and changing that is damn near impossible. In other words, people are the reason that people are fucked.
Real interesting and thought provoking stuff here, and what has happened to the socalled “brandname” of the democrat party (ic… or ick!) is enough for a mass defection from at… least the current regime, by all left leaning or progressive identified voters and supporters.
I still am a registered democrat, (whoopie… ) But not voting again for anything like what they have now. It has become too obvious that it is a cruel hoax.
It in fact may be that the democratic role, is to punish. To punish by object lesson those who would dare to try to… “end run” by lending support to a perceived ( pretend ) alternative to the powers that be, and their agents.
As to say if you don’t go with the program, and that would be the official republican corporate friendly and chamber of commerce and off the shelf plain as day program, that all the rubber stamps are 24/7 parroting, then turn on the righty talking heads and get with it, or go vote for your democrat, and we’ll see ya next time, when your 4 years older and wiser, and a have a few more wrinkles and less teeth.
Democrats only exist to sink the opposition to the rightist monarchists. /semi satire.
round em up and sink em!
Good work if you can get it. How bout a receipt for baked fish, with the head still on, good metaphore a party…. Gotta see that on Friday.
I’ve always called for massive protests, I agree that they’re the best way to achieve real change, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t take other action to pressure the political establishment. Primary challenging Obama is one of them.
The labor protests in Wisconsin are energizing people across this country, people are realizing that there IS something they can do to restore their rights, and they’re seeing that many other people are ready and willing to join them.
The flaws in human nature are definitely an obstacle, but they’ve been overcome before when a noble cause has inspired people to join together and work for the greater good of all, and they can be overcome now.
100,000 people are protesting in Madison today. There are support rallies all over America. Working people are uniting, they’re going to change this country whether the politicians like it or not.
“as someone whose spent his life in electoral politics and who has a lot of a family whose done the same that you are flatly wrong.”
See, Bill, that’s your problem. You’re emotionally invested in the traditional insider-party political paradigm. You’ve got friends inside the system and you just can’t bear to break away from them.
Definitely, this has been an interesting and thought provoking thread from beginning to end, thank you for joining the discussion, geoshmoe.
Thank you, timestickingaway.
“In some cases considering the choice on the ballot the lack of a vote from the left for a Democratic candidate helped put radical and reactionary Republicans in office.”
I don’t know which cases you are referring to specifically. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that putting Walker in office in Wisconsin has exposed the Republican agenda like nothing else has and possibly sparked a resistance movement that has galvanized people across the country going into 2012 and 2016.
I see it being repeated over and over, the assumption that anyone is advocating not voting, even though that perception has been rebutted many times. I will not vote for Obama under any circumstances in 2012, or any member of the Democratic party as it is currently constituted, thereafter. But I do intend to vote third party.
I’ve been saying this for two years. Our current moment in history is one of massive and radical change. In times like these, what we know is likely to become inoperative…I think anything can happen.
I’ll just point out the obvious:
Today, hundreds of thousands of people took to the streets and protested at their State Capitols. They participated in a moment of history.
Those on this thread who did not participate, and bitched about FDL not blogging about what THEY want FDL to blog about, and morally judge FDL? Their comments, and this post will roll off into the history bin any time now.
History is on the side of those who act, not those who gripe and judge.
It’s that very sort of conventional thinking, Bill, that has led to the public’s distruct of both parties – and which will bring them down.
Super Tuesday is not the end, but the beginning. The election that really matters is in November, and Progressives have awakened to that.
Bullshit. There’s nothing more important than ‘BigThink™’. Even governance in the here and now must take a back seat.
/crapstorm
Seconding the obvious, Firedogs walk the talk.
New York
California
Tennessee
Colorado
Was Obama there?
Congratulations, Kelly, you do a very good impersonation of missling.
Was Jane there?
If not, she must be just a griper and a judger.
Wow, pretty transparent.
Nice deflection, but you have no idea where Jane was or wasn’t.
And you have no fucking idea what actions I take.
“Putting my resources into changing the Dem Party from within is not something I choose to do.”
Me neither. I support trying to Dump Obama because it’s the most effective means we have for driving a hard wedge between the Democratic leadership and the base that it has abandoned.
I acted in, and recorded some history today. I’m proud of every second of it.
I would be happy and congratulate you to see you do the same.
Oops, I miss one.
Georgia
I get a disclaimer from Rayne every time I post a Dump Obama piece. Tells me I’m on the right track.
@Rusty1776 February 26th, 2011 at 5:43 pm
Feel free share your actions since you are so willing to share your words.
True, Michael. Your site is excellent. Problem is that you can’t deliver any significant readership.
That was one of many actions taken against that vile war.
You should be proud, I’m also proud of you and of everyone at those rallies.
But like RBG, you don’t know what actions I take.
How can you not see that you’re doing the same thing to me that you accused missling of doing to people?
Yeah, I’ll make sure from now on that I report in to you, RBG.
And here I thought it meant growing plants.
Yet another deflection. Keep trying.
Jeesus, Kelly Canfield. You did stick in a bit of a caveat, but for many (some?) of us are Capitals and Capitols are hundreds of miles away. Why go so far to discredit us as dilettantes? Crikey.
Actually, it’s not a deflection, but keep trying to call it one.
Well then, feel free to tell me what it is other than avoiding a pretty basic question that for whatever reason you choose not to answer.
@Bill Egnor:
Rusty occupies a different house than you do; he is attempting to stir us emotionally, not pragmatically, or with formulaes vis a vis statistics to win something. I get that it’s wholly different than your logical mindset; but there are room for both, in that movements are so often sparked by more than logic or polling data.
Of course you are right: you are workhorse, maybe even THE workhorse at MyFDL; we aren’t privvy as to why your diaries are always on the Left side of the page. Some are really interesting, some are not…but you are prolific.
Rusty, and others of us, wait until we are moved to write. Sometimes our pieces get read, sometimes not…some of us can afford to contribute to the site (I cannot); but I don’t see how that invalidates us or our writing. I assumed that this was an open foum in the Marketplace of Ideas when I came here. Are you telling me that it’s not?
I am a little blown out at this thread; is there not room for all of us? Don’t readers decide that?
You cannot be serious. You go here, right in your post:
Refusing to primary challenge him is immoral. I’m talking to you, Jane. I’m talking to you, Firedoglake. I’m talking to the front-pagers, I’m talking to the editors, I’m talking to the moderators, I’m talking to the diary writers and the readers, I’m talking to all of you.
I mean, really…
1. commenting here and/or posting here does not make me a firedog. please don’t call me one.
2. i’m pretty sure you have no idea what rusty has or has not done in life. unless you do, you have no business judging anything other than the contents of this post.
3. for my part, i’ve done what i could — including getting tear gassed, pepper sprayed and more — before it was considered acceptable by Serious Commenters (or have you forgotten how many putdowns there have been here of street action/protests?). back off.
4. why are you contributing to the continuing put downs of commenters e because they disagree? i remember a time when writers and commenters here claimed dissent is patriotic. if it is patriotic to dissent with one’s political leaders what makes it not ok to express dissent with front page writers? is it that are you on board with the dissenters are a cancer in need of beingcut out thing?
protesting good but only when you agree with the target of the protest?
arghhh.
What I feel free to do, RBG, is to no longer be interrogated by you. When I consider it necessary to report in to you, I’ll let you know.
Newtonusr: “You cannot be serious. You go here, right in your post:
Refusing to primary challenge him is immoral. I’m talking to you, Jane. I’m talking to you, Firedoglake. I’m talking to the front-pagers, I’m talking to the editors, I’m talking to the moderators, I’m talking to the diary writers and the readers, I’m talking to all of you. I mean, really…”
What does that have to do with Kelly impersonating missling?
Fair enough. I’ll make you a proposal, since you’re a Colorado Person.
I’ll let you know in advance what actions I’m going to, and you can say “Yea/Nay” to me wearing a tag on my back saying “For Wendy Davis, since she can’t be here.”
Virtual protest pairing, so to say.
So Jane and the FDL authors, editors, and commenters should follow your moral imperative but you can’t answer one simple question?
it’s not a deflection to want to keep one’s private life private. you know, one of the big reasons for using online pseudonyms and banning people who out real names?
what is it with the defensiveness? why should someone be required to share their personal life on fdl — and possibly out themselves — in order to have the right to dissent without enduring personal attacks? geeze, is it too much to wish you would attack the content of the effing post and not the poster?
This wasn’t meant as a reply to you, wendy, it should be lower in the thread after RBG’s last comment.
“Could sure use your help and that of anyone (and everyone!) here who is committed to Progressive (capitalized, sans quotation marks :) ideals.”
Am I part of “everyone”?
I ask because it appears that primarying Obama is having a new beginning. You have addressed several, if not all, of my concerns, including making the NPA more accessible to its members. The protests in Egypt (and region) and Wisconsin (and region) have changed everything just as the left was sinking into the Obama triumphalism.
Finally, the responses to Rusty1776′s diary here are highly encouraging that we have a base for continuing the fight.
Thus I would indeed like to work on the NPA. It wasn’t me that broke it off.
Your turn?
It’s not “my” moral imperative. Try to understand that.
It’s time that we worked together on this.
@ Rusty1776 February 26th, 2011 at 6:11 pm
It’s not “my” moral imperative.
Yes, it is.
You are not the moral arbiter of the world. You just aren’t.
You’re entitled to how you feel, but you are not entitled to judge morality, for all, forever. You just aren’t.
There’s an element of humor in all this. Those words could have been written by someone else, but they showed up in your diary, utterly detached from reality, floating on a pillow of idealist rage.
I don’t think you’re a bad guy. I think you have a time and a place for all of the rest of us, and our failure to meet your expectations is reason to tantrum.
Get over yourself – some of us live in the here and now – right now – and some of us will only entertain what could be.
Selise, I think that you, of all people, know that I’ve shown the utmost respect for commenters’ privacy.
But if someone’s going to tell me I’m not following their idea of “walking the talk”, I think it’s fair to ask them the same question.
Are Obama’s actions immoral?
Yes they are, and me pointing that out does not make me the moral arbiter of the world.
Obama’s immorality is OBVIOUS. People who support immorality are immoral. I’m stating the obvious, but for some reason, you feel compelled to throw a fit about it, Kelly.
Can be done without personal or even geographic details.
And that’s exactly the point here with this post; the preaching? Fine. The moralization; not acceptable without the poster taking the EXACT SAME ACTIONS demanded of the host.
That’s the challenge; doer, or poser?
I don’t have to get over myself, this isn’t about me.
People who keep refusing to acknowledge the fundamental importance of morality are the ones who are detached from reality.
@ Rusty1776 February 26th, 2011 at 6:19 pm
I’m not saying Obama is moral.
You are saying/implying Jane and FDL is Immoral; and that, you don’t get to judge.
Me? Really? Oh wow, I always wanted to be a spectacle! Can I be bifocals too?
“I think that you, of all people, know that I’ve shown the utmost respect for commenters’ privacy.”
RBG, i do. and i completely trust you not to and i know you could out me at any time. but i don’t believe you ever will. even when you are greatly aggravated, as i expect you probably now :(
that’s one of the reasons i’m so blown away by your comments on this thread. with respect, i think you are completely wrong in this statement:
“But if someone’s going to tell me I’m not following their idea of “walking the talk”, I think it’s fair to ask them the same question.”
the analogy doesn’t work — rusty wrote about what some people have done ONLINE IN PUBLIC and in return you demand to know what rusty has done OFFLINE IN PRIVATE.
what makes it apples and oranges is the issue of offline privacy vs online public writing… and that’s why i wish you would attack the content of rusty’s PUBLIC POST instead of expecting you have the right to know and judge anything about rusty’s (or anyone’s) OFFLINE PRIVATE LIFE.
…this isn’t about me.
Well,
…they’ll be offended that I put “progressives” in quotation marks when I refer to them. Well ask me if I give a damn.
I’m afraid you have that backwards.
That makes no sense.
“…not acceptable without the poster taking the EXACT SAME ACTIONS demanded of the host.
ok, i disagree with your comments above… but putting that aside for the moment…
do you not see that what rusty is calling for is…. writing? the EXACT SAME ACTION that rusty took by writing this post.
Sadly, no. It doesn’t.
newtonusr: “Sadly, no. It doesn’t.”
Thank you for admitting that your comment made no sense.
Wendy,
I am on the left side of the page because I am an Editor here. Part of the responsibilities of that position are posting.
And you know, I am amazed at the amount of stuff that I write that people actually think is interesting, I have zero ability to judge my own work in that regard (too many years of Catholic School have left me with a perpetual disdain for anything I do, no matter how good it is, it could always be so much better according the the Nuns).
And no you can write or not as the mood takes you. I am finding fault with Rusty, and this really is our argument. He wants to be able to swing in here and tell us all how crappy we are but he seems unwilling to do the work as a blogger or an activist or both that is required to actually make a change. That is where I have a problem.
It is hard to find something to write about all the time, trust me I know. At the same time that is the job if you want to be known and when you write something that does fire up people to have it go further than just these pages.
It is getting beyond preaching to the choir that makes you affective. If the only people who read your stuff are people that agree with you, you might keep a few pushing forward, but you won’t influence the conversation of the nation. For those of us (and I think Rusty is in this category) who want this, you have to be disciplined enough to post all the time.
There is plenty of room for everyone but that does not mean that any of us have to stand for the scolding of any one. I am not willing to take Rusty’s crap about moral imperatives when he is clearly not doing anything other than scolding, and to my mind scolding so he can get attention. Real activists do more. Activists who want to be bloggers blog more. Dilettantes swing by once in a while and scold. You tell me which category seems to fit Rusty better?
Yeesh! He is saying you make no sense. Nice try though.
…do you not see that what rusty is calling for is…. writing?
Beg to differ, this is what he called for:
We need to primary challenge Obama.
And this is the penalty he exacts if we don’t comply:
We all have the blood of the innocent on our hands, we’ve all been complicit in the crimes of that “government” in Washington…
“We all have the blood of the innocent on our hands, we’ve all been complicit in the crimes of that “government” in Washington…”
I’m not exacting that penalty, that blood IS on our hands.
And, howdy, ma’am. It is very nice to see you in here again, kicking ass.
No -Rusty wants a position change from Jane, and a FDL blog mobilization against Obama.
Rusty can run. Rusty can publish the filing dates. Rusty can do whatever he damn well wants here, except demand a change in position.
Because it’s moral for Jane to fight the fight as she sees it, where she can fight it, and achieve some headway. Because this fight will NEVER end.
Obama is the fruit of the poisonous tree. Planting new trees, fighting the current “orchardists” and paradigm changing, doing what can be done is exactly what Jane does.
You don’t have to like that she doesn’t whack at the current fruit. Good lord, plenty are doing that.
I talked to about 20 people today at the Solidarity rally, and you know what? Not ONE SINGLE ONE knew of FDL.
They’re all pushing their media/action to facebook. Which I think is great.
But pushing some “moral” load onto Jane is patently ridiculous.
Rusty, you must have received a lot of Recommends to stay in the MyFDL Recommended Diaries list for this long.
Keep up the thought-provoking work.
His claim that my comment made no sense is what made no sense.
taking a break from the arguing….
i have a couple of tech questions:
1. i have no idea how to keep up with a fast commenting thread with these damn nested comments. are there individual rss feeds for each post (that would let me at least follow along by reading the comments chronologically)? if so, what are the urls?
2. and while i’m asking is there an rss feed for all of myfdl that is updated frequently enough to keep up to date in my reader?
Your rigid refusal to admit the obvious is what’s patently obvious, Kelly.
I will, thank you, Alternate ID.
Thank you, selise. I think it’s about time for everyone to take a break from the arguing.
I’m with you.
I need to remind myself that supporting “Dump Obama” is feasible without supporting the Dem Party, or organizations that support the Dem party.
A kind offer, Kelly. On the other hand, I am there in spirit, as I am in Libya and Egypt and with so many others. It’s not that I need a posting, but it’s sort of a fun idea.
My friend from the Cafe, Sleeping Jeezus, is also an e-pal now, and the only reason I ever show up at this site any longer is to support him in Wisconsin. I just thank him for standing for all of us. The site is incredible: they call themselves ‘Progressive’, yet there have been multiple blogs calling out the Fourteen Dems in Wisconsin as promting some ‘illegal spiral’ for legislative devolution ‘er something. Crikey.
(grin) I think I don’t take these things as seriously as most here, I think. It may be that my life *circumstances* have burned out a lot of my ego identity.
http://dagblog.com/reader-blogs/open-letter-my-fellow-citizens-wisconsin-9121
thanks newt. v nice to see you too.
and especially nice to be greeting warmly when we are in the middle of thread with passionate disagreements all around. you make me miss fdl…
I hope that themalcontent replies positively to your question. You have a gift for writing, are very witty, you possess a great amount of historical insights and have a sense of strategy that I much appreciate – and that’s against a backdrop of what seems like a species-wide cognitive deficit when it comes to strategy.
I also have a feeling that you’re the reincarnation of Benjamin Franklin, which is impossible to prove, but karmically propitious for your efforts towards a rebirth of American democracy, if it happens to be true. :-)
Some details of jeffroby’s interesting and idealistic (current) life can be found in his diary What a long, strange trip it’s been
lol. either that or i’ll need to stock up on more advil. :)
you make me miss fdl…
Health care will circle back around, and it will be knives on all sides again, I fear.
May I say, on behalf of all of us who read (and reread, and reread) yours and powwow’s filibuster posts and comments – I have never seen anything like it. It was and is a monument.
my absence was my own RL health issues, not the health care debate — as frustrating as it was, you may have noticed i’m pretty stubborn :).
re filibuster the work. thanks! i’m so glad you found it useful (especially as i remember how you seriously you take this kind of thing). powwow is the best. pretty much everything i know about how congress actually functions, i learned from powwow. mostly i just tried to follow along and assist if i am able…. and i still owe powwow a couple of summary diaries with my take. hope there will be the chance to do them at some point (even if not timely, at least for reference).
ah, i read it as supporting — with writing — a primary challenge.
Suggestions for how to overcome that hurdle would be most welcome.
Tell It Straight to Obama himself… her is his email address:
Tell Obama to support the American people! Not the super rich and the corporations! They have money! Tax them! End the deficit!
http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact
Then tell the site moderators to stop abusing their power to intimidate people like Rusty and Jeff Roby from posting calls for action on this site. Every time independent action is suggested or called for, it seems, Rayne or some other gatekeeper is there reminding people of site rules that don’t actually require us to post disclaimers, and other borderline threats. Not the best way to convince people that FDL is as progressive as it claims to be.
Damn right, thank you, EducatedElite.
Goodness, Bill. I wasn’t inferring that you don’t write interesting things; not all diaries generate comments, I know. Screw the nuns, by the by. ;o) I was unclear from another thread Rayne weighed in on about your position here. I think I understand now: you are a banner blogger/diarist/editor.
Rather than judge Rusty’s position, I will offer that I may seem to be a dilettante, but I don’t care for that designation altogether. We all have different amounts of time we can spend online, or here at MyFDL. I am almost always amazed at the threads on which many people talk back and forth in almost real time to each other. My former long-time blogging home had different software, where we could reply over the hours, and a subthread could accomodate it. And dashboards helped us navigate to responses.
I would disagree that only writing every day or very often would be the hallmark of an agent of change; often I take extra notice if someone is moved to write, and has put effort for days into a piece.
The scolding I can hear you a bit about; I ducked that issue, as through age and hard experience, I am less liable to issue categorical challenges as a modus operandi; it’s just how I click.
On the other hand, I think that words can resonnate through the blogosphere and the ether, and have effects greater than what we mjight expect. I will tell you that sometimes I write because I am unable not to. Sometimes I take risks, knowing what I write might not be well-received, and yet I am complelled to clack my keys.
I’m just not sure there is any such animal as ‘a real activist’. I think we can be all sorts of activists; I know in my long life I have been, and now can clack keys and cook food to give away, and be a mother and grandmother. Some days it feels puny, but it’s all I’ve got. And it’s more than a lot of folks have. ;~)
selise — how you doin’ these days?
I hope you’re right. I sincerely do. But I fear our window of opportunity for finding and running a primary challenger against Obama from the Left closed back in December. I’m more than willing to be proven wrong, though.
Let me ask you something, Bill. What is YOUR plan for 2012? How do you propose to make the Democrats do as the Left wants them to, without a primary challenge from the left or a strong third party run? You keep asking people what they’re doing about this. Now it’s time for you to answer that question.
And as this post rolls off into history, nothing accomplished, nothing gained, except for insulting the provider of the forum.
No fortitude from the writer, no description of efforts made to change the situation he decries, nothing but bombast and decibels and certitude of the faults of others.
Certain on judgment and rectitude; certain of a way forward, with no making of it by himself. Certain of the faults of others, but no recitation of efforts.
Why? Only the writer can answer, but does not. Confident in judgment of all, reticent, where boastful of action would be illuminating of spirit at least, if not the judgment he makes, silence remains.
The argument of pseudonymity aside, the fault of action and conviction Rusty, lies in yourself, not in the blog.
Evidence of acting as you believe versus mere denouncement of others is the meat of history, not the detritus of it, as this post will soon be.
Third Party, not a primary challenge, the Dim hierarchy won’t allow it. If MSNBC, The Nation Magazine, Firedoglake weren’t shills for the Dim Party, they’d be out using their connections networking for a Third Party candidate!
Now you’re resorting to lying.
Keep throwing a fit, Kelly, dress it up in Shakespearean language if you like, but continuing to support Obama is immoral, and nothing you say is going to change that.
I don’t support Obama. And I’m not lying, no matter what you say.
I only copied your style. Perhaps you don’t like that.
Provide evidence of your actions, and I’ll retract.
I was going to comment on that, but you beat me to it.
As I’ve said in other diaries and comments, a viable third party movement has the most potential to generate real change, but other actions, including a primary challenge of Obama, can had a positive effect as well.
You’re lying about me, Kelly, you don’t know what I’ve done, but you claim I’ve done nothing, you’re lying about my character, you’re lying about the effect of this diary, you’re lashing out and demanding evidence of “cred” just like missling did.
Congratulations, you’ve become even more pathetic than Larue, which takes some doing.
“I don’t remember asking…”
Rusty, you crack me up. *g*
Interesting that they have removed this diary from the front page Rusty.
I guess it’s a little authoritarian reactionary payback.
Someone did pickup on my Vichy theme, Margaret is calling them Vichycrats.
Not lying, just challenging, and you got nothing to respond with.
I put everything on the table, right out there, real name and everything, proud to do so, and will continue to do so.
You can’t or won’t, so there’s no reason to attempt any sort of further dialogue. Good luck with your future endeavors.
Well, it hasn’t been removed, it was posted about 30 hours ago and most diaries are off the recc list by then.
That Vichy theme is great, thank you for that, wayoutwest, I hope it goes viral.
You’ve been lying about me, Kelly, calling your lies “challenges” doesn’t change that.
No further dialogue with you is just fine with me.
It will be interesting to see how these people who are attacking you behave when and if the authorities become more repressive. Will they be in the streets when the teargas and rubber bullets are used. As someone who has been gassed, beaten and shot by our protectors of liberty i can’t wait to see how this generation stands up.
The DNC next year may be the acid test for this younger generation.
Nope, sorry. Been there, done that, not going back.
I agree, absolutely.
Hi selise, good to “see” you! *g*
Actually, I like the idea of pressuring the people funding the political establishment, i.e., the banksters, the strategy of UKuncut and now USuncut. We need a general strike, and if that bill in Wisconsin is passed, I hope the unions carry out their threat.
Bill–
Wow! You gave me that lecture last week, or so.
“I’m important because I post diaries here all the time, and I don’t care to hear anything that might be contrary to my point of view because you don’t write diaries!”
Posting diaries on FDL makes you important, and an activist? Go figure!
Meanwhile, we should all just sit down and shut up and tell you how great you and your ideas are? And not dare have any contrary ones?
Someone needs analysis, and quick!
But being an editor here doesn’t entitle you to hijack the thread of a very popular diary, does it? Or is that another “rule” I’m unaware of.
“Rusty occupies a different house than you do; he is attempting to stir us emotionally, not pragmatically, or with formulaes vis a vis statistics to win something. I get that it’s wholly different than your logical mindset; but there are room for both, in that movements are so often sparked by more than logic or polling data.”
Thanks for saying this, Wendy. Isn’t it rare for a dreamer or a visionary to be also a doer? Martin Luther King was a rarity. And why must one invalidate the other? Is fire less valuable than earth? Of course not.
All is clarified. I raised strong objections to some of the far-fetched notions you had about coalition-building. You broke off all communications with me, and now make clear that I will not be able to be part of the NPA.
Thus I have to conduct any dialogue about the NPA, which I was one of the founders of, from the outside. And YOU call ME negative.
Who decides who can or cannot be an NPA member? You. Opposition is purged. The Democratic Party has a more open process.
This does bode ill for the future of the NPA.
So Rusty, as you see from above (February 26th, 2011 at 9:04 pm), I am not allowed to be an NPA member due to disagreements I have had with malcontent, despite my extending an olive branch. Nothing like starting out with some purges.
Use the Site Activity feature, selise. It’s just under the login area at the right. Everything in that feature is in chronological order; there are several options for drilling down if you use the drop down.
Unfortunately the RSS feed for MyFDL needs tweaking and may not work in the manner you expect at this time.
Glad to hear you’re making traction.
I’d like you to keep this sentence in mind as you go forward. In particular, continue to note the ratio between those who write/talk about the kinds of activities you’re doing, and those who actually do the work.
Truly independent action means buying your own hosting service, doing your own website or blog coding, developing your own brand, writing your own content, managing your own initiatives and community.
If you’re using somebody else’s site, you’re obliged to work within their rules or co-opt their efforts without asking for permission. What you characterize as “threats” are reminders of this obligation.
jeffroby, you get a disclaimer every time because of a specific reason. Apparently you need a refresher on this or additional clarification.
You did not ask for permission to use FDL’s branding or site to host your initiative which you have named and developed as a brand of its own. It amounts to a form of intellectual property “borrowing” without advance permission, to put it nicely, especially when you posted this at other commercial venues like Facebook.
If you had done this at a number of other sites like TPM or DailyKos I’m sure you would have had similar resistance — and might even have been banned. This site didn’t do that (and your acknowledgment and gratitude is, well…).
You’d like to think the disclaimer is a political statement, but it’s not. It reflects your personal resistance to putting in the effort to build your own independent effort.
I’d like you to point to the occurrences where the Green Party folks like Rebecca Griffin were discouraged by the site rules and moderator powers. They posted weekly if not daily in the run up to the 2010 elections and I don’t recall anyone in the editorial/moderation teams having any issues or concerns with their work. (Frankly, I was always disappointed by the lack of support for them by the folks here who proclaim they want third party candidates.)
Further, if you have a complaint about the operation of the site, you already know that the rules spell out the means by which you can convey your concerns — leave a comment in a Watercooler post or send an email to the editor.
Your frequent disregard for the rules should demonstrate to readers what the real problem is.
Rusty, you’ve managed to write nearly 3000 words in comments in this post. At a moderate clip of 40 wpm speed, that’s about 75 minutes of time invested here.
How did that time and those words actually further your personal cause which is to primary Obama and/or field a third-party progressive candidate?
As far as I can tell, you’ve managed to insult a number of regular community members and encouraged a number of community members who don’t really care for this site anyhow. It’s not clear that anyone in this thread was persuaded to do something new and constructive; those who were committed to making change happen, like themalcontent, were already working elsewhere to do so before this so-called hortatory exercise began.
Perhaps a Dale Carnegie class or two is in order if you really wish to be more persuasive.
In the mean time, I’m going to ask you to stop with accusations of lying. I see no evidence of that; it’s unwarranted. Please treat other community members respectfully as they have as much legitimacy as you do.
I hope you are not confusing the number of comments your posts garner with actual amount of site traffic. There’s an enormous difference.
If you need an example, please look to the peaceful and lovely Caturday posts SouthernDragon puts up every week. They draw a large number of comments and are a favorite here in the community, but they do not generate traffic.
Conversely, a post like David Dayen’s from Madison only drew 93 comments in roughly 12 hours as of 7:00 a.m. ET Sunday — but his post was a major traffic draw to the FDL family of sites and featured at a number of other outlets.
reply to jeffroby:
3 points:
1) presumably, the steering committee may decide otherwise, later on
2) it wouldn’t bereply to jeffroby:
3 points:
1) presumably, the steering committee may decide otherwise, later on
2) it wouldn’t be a bad outcome for you to spearhead the organization of a viable Dump Obama movement, which doesn’t have what faults you consider inherent in the NPA*. However, what you don’t want to do is…
3) unnecessarily split votes with NPA candidates. Hopefully, someday there will be in place something like IVCS, which is a vote bloc technology, which will facilitate the temporary alliances of various vote blocs, on a per-election basis, and beyond. In the meantime, it’d be best to maintain reasonably cordial relations with NPA which would allow political cooperation to occur, later on.
I read somewhere that Tea Parties in a northern state (can’t remember which one) split their votes in 2010, leading to a mainstream GOP type to win. They’ve learned from their mistake, and now have pledged to support a unified Tea Party candidate, which they will determine before the official, real world Republican primary.
This is, of course, the rational strategy to pursue, but there needs to be some minimal level civility between the Tea Party participants which allows a unified strategy to occur.
On this theme, a golden oldie of mine: Gaming competing ‘FireDogLake Voting Blocs’ scenarios – getting Unity out of Diversity
* I’ve criticized the PCCC, who refer to themselves as the “bold progressives”, for not being bold, enough. However, I don’t think I’d have any problem with them if they referred to themselves as the “semi-bold progressives”. They are, indeed, more bold than Obama-bots, so they are therefore an improvement over those set of Democratic lemmings.
However, by creating the false impression in people’s minds that they are truly, fully bold, they are getting the mistaken support of citizens whose energies and money would best be utilized in a bolder organization. Thus, I consider them part of the veal pen, as they are, in effect, wasting activists’ energies and misleading .
However, this can’t be true of all members of the PCCC. If the PCCC was bolder than it’s current level of semi-boldness, some members would quit, taking it to be too extreme.
So, I think taking the perspective of a democratic ecosystem is best. There’s a place in the ecosystem for PCCC’s, (but more honestly labeled, please), but you also need fully bold progressive organizations.
From a democratic ecosystem point of view, the NPA, while still fuzzily defined, looks to me like it can honestly be declared to be “bold”. However, that doesn’t mean that the ecosystem can’t handle another bold progressive organization with an electoral focus, like a Dump Obama movement! A Dump Obama movement will be (I suppose) bolder rhetorically, but less aggressive/bold than NPA in asking voters to eschew Democrats.
It’s certainly possible to be too aggressive, just as sure as it’s possible to not be aggressive, enough. Most progressive organizations of note aren’t aggressive enough to make much difference. NPA doesn’t suffer from that demoralizing tendency, and neither would (I hope) a Dump Obama movement.
thanks for the reply, rayne. the site activity doesn’t do it for me… although, if there could be a reliable rss feed based on it, that would be lovely. actually there is an rss feed, on the site activity page with a button and everything, but it’s apparently not updated unless i view a refreshed page. so, it doesn’t update very frequently in any of my readers (google reader, netnewswire). might be a caching issue? i really have no idea, but there are lots of possibilities that would be an easy fix.
feed://my.firedoglake.com/activity/feed/
“… and encouraged a number of community members who don’t really care for this site anyhow.”
rayne, what did you take a poll or something?
putting aside my opinion of calling commenters community members…. this long time commenter (me), who cares deeply about fdl and the people who i’ve come to know here, was greatly encouraged by rusty’s post. even though i have no interest in working on a primary challenge to obama, i’m heartened to know that there are people who see it as a moral imperative.
jmo, but political pragmatics without a moral passion or articulated semi-coherent moral world view (even one i don’t entirely share) is a dead politics that has no ability to inspire a large number of people to hope and work for a better world.
all the great social movements i know of were based at their core on a moral vision at odds with the establishment.
more please, not less.
Yadda yadda yadda. I’ll ask you the same question I asked Bill: What are YOU doing to help force Democrats to do as we on the Left want them to? What incentive can you possibly give that will make them realize that it is detrimental to their ambitions to continue ignoring and marginalizing the Left?
Oh, and Rayne, point out the specific rule that requires posters to put disclaimers in their diaries, and why do you only demand disclaimers of those who try to organize progressives to action? Why not everyone? It’s because you know for a fact that there is no rule that requires disclaimers. You abuse your powers as a moderator to try to intimidate people. This is an indisputable fact. You can own up to it and refrain from doing it from now on, or you can keep abusing your powers and continue to expose yourself as just another gatekeeper and faux progressive, the very thing Rusty is writing about.
It’s interesting, Rusty, that the ones MOST offended by your entry are the ones doing the LEAST to hold Obama and the Democrats accountable for their sins. At least we on the true Left are trying to do something more than complain.
http://my.firedoglake.com/michaelkwiatkowski/2011/02/27/what-are-you-doing
I’m asking some questions of everyone who calls himself or herself a Leftist, questions that are demanded by the gatekeepers yet never answered by them. I know why they refuse to answer their own questions, but I’ll save that for another entry. In the meantime, keep the faith and keep up the good fight. There are far more of us than there are of the gatekeepers, and they know that without our readership and support, they’re nothing.
hi phred! hi peony!
looks like i’m just stirring up shit. some things haven’t changed :)
Why are any diaries posted here, Rayne? How do they further the causes of the diarists? Why do YOU post diaries here? What do YOUR diaries do the further your causes?
I notice you didn’t criticize the people who insulted me. That’s typical, you’re very selective in noticing insults. Perhaps you should take a moderator class if you really wish to be a fair and objective moderator.
You seem to be telling people not to post diaries here because we can’t know what positive effect they have, you seem to be telling everyone that its a waste of time to post diaries because it’s not clear whether anyone in any of the diary threads will be persuaded to do something new and constructive. That’s a rather strange thing to be doing at a website where diaries are the only way we can communicate.”
I’ve emailed your post and my reply to Jane. I’ve asked her whether she thinks one of her editors should be suggesting that posting diaries is a waste of time.