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Gun sight aimed at our country.
Picture courtesy of tarrif.net.
When our most irresponsible political right wing proponents speak out calling for taking back America, they are speaking to a varied contingent. One similarity all those listeners have, though, is the ability to purchase and carry firearms never intended for public safety. Second amendment rights is a slogan that invokes violence.
When the constitution gave citizens the right to bear arms, it was as a well-regulated militia defending this nascent country from external threats. A Glock pistol with an added armature that makes it into a Weapon of Mass Destruction was never intended to be used in group defense of the country.
The sort of wilding appealed to by gun sellers was ever present in Tucson, home of Glock matches inthe nearby desert; see this video to experience the kind of appeal the gun lobby wants you to identify with. This is not a thoughtful, concerned citizen brought into political consciousness that can be wielded for the good of the country. It’s the kind of citizen that wants to mow down everyone between him and his often unlawful existence.
By agitating for increasingly weakened laws to protect citizens, the right wing has created an atmosphere of fear. The fear of being targeted for removal from office by ‘gun nuts’ has kept candidates for office in this country, for decades, from addressing the irrationality of lowering protections while increasing weaponry available to anyone, no matter how deranged. . . .
In the mid 60′s Senators Joe Tydings and Al Gore, Sr., led legislative attempts to license and limit weaponry available to just anyone at all, and at the time Sen. 1 was the proposal to license guns. It had a great number of sponsors, including Sen. Ralph Yarborough, whom I worked for. The gun lobby targeted those sponsors, and it brought down a great number of them – at a time when it would have been a disgrace to call for getting anyone ‘in your sights’ or showing a picture of any senator with a gunsight drawn over him/her.
The gun lobby has only grown since then, and its rhetoric is that of freedom fighters and hunters although its effects are far different from what it talks about. When irresponsible political candidates tout “second amendment remedies” as was so lately invoked in Arizona, nutcases are thrilled, and enlivened. We have all too much proof of that.
During the campaign just past, gun advocates made up a big part of the enthusiasts for ‘taking back America’ rhetoric. For some, the reality of actual violence was reached in their adoption of political aims. Arizona’s governor made a big play of representing fierce American independence when she signed a law to give the right to carry concealed weapons to citizens who didn’t even have a license.
The legislation was strongly lobbied by the Arizona Citizens Defense League, and gun rights activists across the map think this is a hot idea, insisting that governments should not have the authority to regulate the carrying of firearms by requiring a permit for concealed carry. Gov. Brewer signed the bill because she trusts the citizens she serves. The law will become effective sometime this summer, 90 days after the legislature adjourns.I believe strongly in the individual rights and responsibilities of a free society, and as governor I have pledged a solemn and important oath to protect and defend the Constitution. I believe this legislation not only protects the Second Amendment rights of Arizona citizens, but restores those rights as well.”—Arizona Gov. Jan BrewerThis legislation would never have been signed by former Gov. Janet Napolitano, an anti-gun Democrat who vetoed several pro-firearms measures, and is now the Secretary of Homeland Security. Some police chiefs, most notably El Mirage Chief Mike Frazier, complained, “I know a lot of 21-year-olds; the maturity level is gravely concerning sometimes.”
205 Comments
This can’t be repeated often enough or emphatically enough. Thanks
Thanks, I’ll be telling it as often as folks will listen.
Recommended!
Thank you, Ruth, this most important post deserves to be on the front pages of newspapers and the main story on Tee Vee “news” across the nation, that it will not … simply proves your deeper point.
This gun “business” is NOT about freedom, it is about fear.
Psychologically, only those who are deeply fearful, have a “need” for weapons with which to kill with impunity others who merely offend the “sensibilities” of the fearful, but it is those who instill the fear, the clever and the manipulative, the sociopathic “elite” who pull the “strings” of those “sensibilities” who deserve our deepest scorn and attention.
To me,what is reflected is failure, the failure (deliberate) of education and civility … and the intentional assault upon reason, tolerance, and understanding … upon humanity itself by those who regard themselves as above any rules or laws … those who seek a future of planet-destroying neo-feudalism … with themselves as lords and masters.
DW
Amen, Ruth. I am despondent about what our country has become. I have a 9-year-old granddaughter so the tragedy in Arizona has extra resonance. And it is sickening how the right is defending Palin and Angle and the extreme views.
‘only those who are deeply fearful, have a “need” for weapons’
At risk of being repetitive (from earlier), Bingo!
Hug her close for me.
I am a gun owner. I don’t use it for anything but protection. However, those that carry their guns proudly in public venues as we witnessed during onc of the President’s speeches need a reality check.
We live in different times than the wild west or the discovery of new lands. We have a myriad of agencies to protect us. Oh, I know it is not specifically for a single person. However, the fear that is preached from the highest stations of this country everyday must check themselves and make an effort to use a different method of gaining political support.
True. Gaining votes by preaching violent overthrow of the government essentially is defeating its own purpose.
The Second Amendment is here to stay.
Sorry.
The shooting yesterday had nothing to do with Palin and her movement. The shooter was a nutjob and a very heavy pot smoker.
Nuff said?
I have long maintained that when you live in fear, the worst thing that can happen to you already has. By making many of the citizens of our nation fearful instead of hopeful the Right has done lasting and perhaps terminate damage to our national psyche.
Accessibility to Weapons of Mass Destruction can be taken under control under the constitution. Contesting in favor of the rights of the unstable is anti-social and dangerous to the country, and in such an instance as this defeats the vote of the people.
Oh, yeah, ’cause smoking pot makes you soooo violent! Sheesh.
But lets say that he is nuts, he still had to have a focus for his craziness and when popular political figures talk about other politicians as “traitors” or “Nazis” and say they are not real Americans, where exactly do you think the armed and crazy are going to focus their actions?
Or do you think it is okay for people to kill because of differences in political policy?
The issue is not the second amendment but the absolutest position that many gun rights advocates take. Is there any reason for a citizen to own a .50 caliber machine gun? Is there any need for a gun that can fire 21 bullets for home protection? Is there any need for assault rifles for hunting or keeping a burglar out of your home?
Link provide provide proof he said, she said from the internet won’t cut it today.
Absolutely! It is always a hate game for something or somebody. First the Native Indians, then the Chinese, then the Blacks, the Mexicans, and now YOU/Me.
I’ll say it again, as long as they can divide us they will be able to conquer the citizenry of the country. We have to laugh at their attempts in the future and call them out for it.
Right, Bill. But I think when they are deprived of their rights and well-being, even the extreme right wing will determine that it isn’t what they actually wanted.
There’s nothing in this post which indicates the Second Amendment is under threat.
What is in question is the continued misinterpretation of the Second Amendment by people who are completely unaware they have been manipulated by gun manufacturers for decades for the purposes of ensuring a continuing market for their products. The gun lobby is surely making use of this tragic event already to justify additional sales of guns.
Thanks for this, Ruth. Wow. The ink’s not even dry and you’re front paged. Good. This is an important conversation. Not a fun conversation, but necessary. Good job.
How do you know? Are you his dealer?
Thanks. S.1 was one of my specialties, have always been amazed at the ability of corporate interests to decieve otherwise rational people into the fiction that having assault weapons in the hands of the unstable maintains their freedoms.
I hate guns. I really do. Sorry, they are a menace to mankind.
The shooter *cough* claims to have Hitler and Marx and claimed both were his favorites most Lefties only read Righty books just to check up what the GOP is thinking.
The Righties feel the same way about our books. Glen Beck fans however think Lefties and Nazi’s are the same.
So either the Murderer lied about reading the books and yes many people lie about reading books (George Bush winning a book reading contest with Karl Rove comes to mind)
And or this guy or his handler listens to Glen Beck.
Either that or I expect to here that Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh cried when they read Obama’s book because it was so moving.
Like everything else in this warped culture: money plays a big part- weapons of all sizes and shapes make profit for manufacturers, gun retailers, gun flea marketers, corner crooks, and Pentagon civil officials.
Market demand for guns is another slow sea change that reflects the greater loss and our undoing:
a communal sense of the common good.
“A nation is formed by the willingness of each of us to share in the responsibility for upholding the common good.” Barbara Jordan keynote address at the Democratic National Convention on July 12, 1976
Agreed. I hate them too, but with 200 million in the United States we are kind of stuck with them for a very long time.
In my opinion, they’re definitely that – but I do know people who actually use them to help feed their families. So I will never stand totally against them for the purpose of that need.
There is a link between the kind of rhetoric which has become pervasive which implies permission to act out violently.
It’s not unlike the link between Radio Rwanda and the massacre of Tutsi by Hutu — the constant harangue encouraged the Hutu to act in a manner which was inconsistent with law.
The most fragile members of the community who cannot distinguish propaganda from rational speech are those who may break first under this kind of rhetoric. Pot has little to do with this; Loughner’s mental condition has everything to do with this.
A good point for us on the Left too. We don’t always agree on everything but we have a hell of a lot more in common with our goals than we do in difference.
Indeed, a lot of folks claim to read the Bible that preaches love, and preach hate. I guess they skipped stuff.
ET has Sarah’s website with the congresswoman’s name and a bullseye over her picture for a crazy person isn’t that enough?
‘a communal sense of the common good’
Good thought – the very thing that frightens wingnuts the most.
Sadly the issue is going to be how they react. And that brings us to this tragedy in AZ. If the reaction is one of knee-jerk violence it is even less likely that they will get what they want, yet the rhetoric of the Right has set it up to be that way.
Is it true you can bring concealed guns into bars and churches in AZ what about college campuses?
TCU, agreed, and the wingnuts are already denying that there is any connection between suggestion and the suggestible… predictably.
The GOP Gospel of Wealth God rewards the faithful with money the poor are being punished by God for their immorality.
I wonder now if the GOP have a Gospel of Hate and Violence Dave at crooks and Liars might be the one for me to talk to about this.
Well said.
It’s interesting listening to the fear-mongers this morning braying about violence not having a place in our society, eg Boehner. This from people who could or would not bring themselves to condemn those who called for the killing or execution of people like Julian Assange and Michael Vick. The day before yesterday they talked of killing like it was no big deal, never having experienced what such an act does, not only to the victims but to the one doing the killing. Today they drool lame platitudes.
Jesus was, if you read the Bible, a pacifist. Most Christians dispute this. Most Christians dispute that he told everyone to give up everything and follow him. These people don’t even understand their own religion. Can anyone see Jesus toting a gun around? Or any weapon.
I like Jesus, but am none too fond of his followers.
Protection from what?
As I understand it, there has to be a specific sign declaring that it isn’t allowed in any business or publicly accessible place for concealed weapons to be prohibited. If anyone is more familiar with AZ law, please let me know if that’s wrong.
This is who they are. Take another look at your Freeper co-workers tomorrow. And don’t forget it.
Think of all the dem politicians who tote guns – Kristin Gillibrand claims to keep one under her bed.
Gun R us
Well said Ruth. Banning all firearms is a moot point at this time, it will be literally centuries before the number of firearms in this country is significantly reduced. The reasonable approach is to enact some reasonable restrictions about how and where they can be carried in public, (not until the zombie apocalypse imo) and who can buy them legally. The scary thing is this nutbar didn’t break any laws whatever until he actually opened fire.
Following bad but convincing leaders is what forms the right wing; if they had better judgment they’d be progressives.
Ban ammunition.. let em have their guns.
If a crazy person got the gun legally then existing gun laws need to be enforced more.
If he is not crazy maybe just weird the legal standard for crazy is quite high just being a Tea Bagger won’t do it then Sarah loses the lone nut acting on his own defense.
GOP hate propaganda might be starting to effect sane people.
His mental state in no way exculpates the hate merchants. It’s entirely irrelevant to their responsibility. Of course he was a nutjob.
Exactly. By intimidating legislative leadership with campaigns against rational measures the wingnuts have undermined simple and viable controls of the criminal element’s having assault weapons.
Thanks Ruth, Great post and an excellent take on a complex subject. Yes the right to bear arms is in the constitution, but I don’t think that included assault weapons with large magazines. Bear in mind the weapons available during colonial times were far different than those of today. The Founders could not have envisioned that such weapons would exist. Would they have approved of such weapons? Somehow I highly doubt it.
Ruth, well said. The increasing polarization of political speech, fanned by corporate wealthy interests (seeking to cripple government at any cost); loss of civility and easy access to assault weapons with fewer checks than a driving permit is an extreme danger. You are correct, lawmakers are cowed into going with the extreme and accepting laws they know are dangerous.
It alarms me greatly to read that AZ now allows concealed weapons with no permit. I lived in Phoenix for 10 years and recognized the huge number of tweakers, crack-heads and nut-jobs out there who can now carry guns without anyone knowing. I have advised my son, attending school there, that it is time to leave the state.
I also agree that the national tone set by leaders, condoning and engaging in torture, engaging in mass murder, and extrajudicial killings, has led us here.
They are a menace. very true. I’m not ready for the police and the military to have sole access to them however. That would require a level of trust that I’ll probably never be able to extend.
During the last major depression it was said that, “All we have to fear is fear itself.”
In THIS major (and deliberately caused) depression … all we “have” IS fear.
Apparently, nothing was learned … except the political “value” of instilling fear … of “those who hate us for our freedoms”.
And the sagious, the practitioners of gravatas, embrace this sublime insanity as gospel and sell it, piecemeal, to the frightened and the hateful.
Children are not, by nature, fearful or hateful, they have to be taught such things.
DW
When the constitution gave citizens the right to bear arms, it was as a well-regulated militia defending this nascent country from external threats. A Glock pistol with an added armature that makes it into a Weapon of Mass Destruction was never intended to be used in group defense of the country.
nor are any close proximity or hidden weapons
somehow I doubt gun law advocates think everyone has the right to keep or bare alms when that alm is a nuclear divice
Weapon of mass destruction
This is so friggin’ stupid it’s incredible.
A Glock 9mm is a weapon for personal protection.
I guess you progressive idiots would like to see us go the Mexican way, where they have very strict gun control laws and only government crooks and outlaws have weapons. Everyone else is a potential victim.
It’s irresponsible as hell for a celeb be it public or private to have a public function without a body guard. Those are the liberal times we live in.
There was a time about 50 years ago when a person could clip a coupon from a magazine and order a gun.
THEN we started to not raise children who respect authority and other people’s properties. Who learned in church that “thou shalt not commit murder”. Today, the brats being raised are ill behaved, have no respect for parents, authorities or God.
You made it that way with your “progressive” bullshit and now you are reaping the whirlwind.
The shooter btw, was not a right winger. He was a nut job.
A crazy loon created by a crazy society.
I live in a state in which guns are king. Virginia. A state that supplies NYC criminals with guns. They come down here and bring them back to the big cities in the NE. A large percentage of the guns come from VA.
If you go traveling through the state, all you see are gun ranges.
The gun culture will not die a quick death.
Or at least make it extremely difficult to get any.
Lamar Alexander was on CNN a few minutes ago claiming the shooter was reading Marx and burning flags.
Obviously giving the talking heads their talking points.
I haven’t heard of flag burning since the Vietnam War. these “people” are very nationalistic, they aren’t going around burning flags.
The conservatives on the TEEVEE seem strangely unaffected by these murders…I guess they think they’re safe…they probably are. Palin didn’t put gunsights on THEIR pictures.
What a menace that woman is!
Expect more “it’s the liberals” tomorrow.
It might be propitious to point out what a great job the mods do to remind commenters that this site does not tolerate any promotion of violence in the threads. A wonderful policy. (Jane, where ever you are, thank you.)
They noted that Rep. Gabrielle Giffords’ tea party-backed opponent, Jesse Kelly, held a fundraiser at a shooting range in which he invited supporters to “help remove Gabrielle Giffords from office” by shooting an M16 with him.
http://www.tampabay.com/news/article1144492.ece?nsm=true
Help remove from office and by shooting an M-16 with him? This is not even subtle er Obvious this is a Cartoon level obvious to a child, plea for shooters.
Except that there may have been a conspiracy to commit crime. The police have a second suspect sought, Huffingtonpost has a photo.
Coercing a feeble minded, impressionable youngster into great harm was made all the more easy by AZ passing of laws allowing concealed carry without a permit. Also, did he lie on the federal gun purchase application form? The question of diagnosed mental illness?
Oh come on. What good is that going to do? Are you going to go around and confiscate all of the ammunition presses out there? Are you going to ban all materials that could possibly be used to make one? The only thing that makes sense at this point is to regulate where and how they can be carried. Even if we banned all guns and ammunition tomorrow as the first order of business, results won;t be felt for centuries. There are just too many guns and ammunition is easy to reload and gunpowder is a high school chemistry project. Period.
If I listened to Palin, Rush and Beck among others 24/7 I’d be nuts too.
The ad showing up in the upper right corner of my screen is:
“Concealed Carry Report
Know Your Rights
and get your free
concealed carry report today”
If you click on it, you see “What you must know before leaving your house with your gun.”
Excuse me, while I go into the other room to get my tinfoil hat. That ad is tracking very closely to this content.
:)
=edited by mod= The whirlwind were reaping in this country is indeed being created by a crazy gun nut created country alright.
Giffords faced a great deal of backlash last year from conservatives who were upset over her support for health care. In fact, she was one of several Democrats whose offices were vandalized after the reform laws passed.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20027915-503544.html
Its not like the GOP can claim they were not targeting her before this happened and violence did not occur before or that Sarah’s website bullseye or Jesse’s help remove Gabrielle by shooting an M-16 were mistakes.
This smells of a coordinated approach to handling Blue Dogs. Notice the murderer did not go after Progressive Hispanic Dems in AZ he went after a Blue Dog.
I am reminded of last summer when Obama was invited to speak at Notre Dame’s commencement. There was a big uproar and people drove cars plastered with bloody abortion pictures and flew a small plane with a banner over campus for days. I was really afraid something would happen — fortunately it didn’t.
And this for a sitting President who happens to be pro choice but in favor of reducing the need for abortions. You’d have thought they had invited an abortionist to speak.
Has Jesse Kelly apologize for his actions yet?
Jesse Kelly and people like him may have not have pull the trigger yesterday, but they did plant the seed for this sick idea.
As I said in an earlier post, but worth repeating I think, the straight faced Boehner and last week’s emphatic repetition of the two words of fear mongering, “Job Killing,” in describing the HRC is untenable language for any elected official in this country to be using.
Near every decent job has already been killed during the last two decades by shipping it overseas.
His politics are irrelevant. Of course he was a nut job. Sane people don;t do things like this. How do his politics or lack thereof excuse the hate merchants? How do his politics bear any relevance on the subject of access to firearms?
Yeah, I saw that too…how ironic. Perhaps we should say “Paris Hilton” a few times to change the ad-tracking…/s
I know this isn’t a popular stance here, but I do not want guns to be banned. I don’t trust this government enough to give up a way of defending ourselves against a government that is out of control.
That being said, I am also for keeping guns out of the hands of the mentally ill. But in order to do that, we have to have a working healthcare system that can evaluate those who may suffer from mental illness and treat them and take care of them. And we do not have that. Not even close.
Blame the victim of the shooting for being irresponsible because she was shot? What alternate reality do you inhabit, anyway?
What relevance does that bear on this subject? the number of shooters don’t matter when it comes to the culpability of the hate merchants or the access to firearms. Niether do his politics or his state of mind.
I saw that comment just before it was moderated. I’m glad it was! Just what we need, more violence advocates in the wake of yesterday’s tragedy.
Read on a bit; the Glock had an added clip carrying 30 rounds.
No doubt there are ill behaved kids raised by people of many different persuasions. As I recall, there was a prodigal son of a good man that took more than the usual number of bad decisions to become a good man in his turn; that is hardly proof that being a good man is ruining society.
I don’t know…authoritarian/ angry/fearful types are always easily manipulated.
And the excuses coming from the right will vindicate this young man’s actions.
This is how Hitler gained power. The people were heavily sanctioned and poor after the Treaty of Versailles and they had a pretty violent patriarch of the family paradigm ( sorta like we do in many instances) which caused hate they weren’t capable of looking at .
Alice Miller, a German psychiatrist, in her book “For Your Own good” delves into Hitler’s background of beatings by his alcoholic father who gave him 40 every damn day.
This was consistent throughout Germany at that point in time.
Miller is amazing in pointing out how childhood abuse in later life problems
Why should people need guns to feed their families? What are we doing wrong as a society that we can’t find the money to help these people put food on the table other than by using weapons?
“My” ad, GW, is for “Project Blackout” which shows a buxom lass with machine gun and in the background a masked soldier(?) with a weapon pointed at the viewer and we can all “play for free” …
‘Tis ubiquitous … this violence and love of guns.
And the trolls would have us “believe” that it is ALL a liberal-progressive plot …
DW
The worst part is Kelly is probably going to wind up with that seat now. Not because he’s a republican but because it will encourage other nutbar ‘baggers out there.
The kid’s mother is on MSNBC and talk about a disengaged parent!
A Glock 9mm is a weapon for personal protection.
6 dead a 9 year old girl is not enough for you?
I guess you progressive idiots would like to see us go the Mexican way, where they have very strict gun control laws and only government crooks and outlaws have weapons.
If gun control laws are not enforced then anyone with cash can buy guns Moron just like it is in America however nobody brags about owning illegal guns in Mexico. Only the lawbreakers get caught. Also AZ has very liberal concealed carry laws where were all the gun nuts in AZ when this went down I thought they were suppose to deter crime?
This happened outside a shopping mall in broad daylight the GOP gunnmen are now as disrespecting of the law as Mexican Drug dealers.
I suspect they do track closely to content. If you use gmail you will see one-line ads at the top that appear as though someone is reading your email. I don’t know if there are other ads on gmail, because I use Firefox with Ad Block Plus and it even blocks commercial messages in Rachel Maddow video clips.
Seconded
Voting and electing sane politicians is perhaps a more pro-active way of “government control.” How about keeping gov’t out of the hands of the mentally ill?
I’m with you. Not all of us want to see guns banned. In a perfect world where we could trust our leadership that would be a solution but it’s not one in the universe I inhabit.
I’m not watching, but it could be that she is simply in shock (if you mean the 9-year-old’s mother).
Actually, I posted my comment before that was said. :) Just saying.
Actually, it was St. Ronnie who started releasing mental patients so he could cut taxes for rich folks.
Yes and put its purchase underground to enhance a mob-run bloody ammunition cartel controlled by ruthless thugs. Great suggestion./s
I remember walking into a bar in Greenwood New Mexico (which is just across the border from AZ) which posted a sign that guns had to be left at the door. No drinking and shooting allowed. I imagine it must be the same in AZ; otherwise there would be a slew of bar room deaths.
I’m a reader of Marx but I have no desire to go out and shoot people and Marx never advocated such behaviour.
parajito; ‘keeping gov’t out of the hands of the mentally ill?’
A very good plan. But if they had good judgment, rightwingers would be progressives, (sorry to repeat myself.)
Yep and in that spirit Jan Brewer is allowing transplant patients to die, again so rich people can go ahead and buy that second yacht this year. I’ll bet Alice Cooper is doing cartwheels.
THEN we started to not raise children who respect authority and other people’s properties. Who learned in church that “thou shalt not commit murder”.
Violent crime stats are down please explain by what measure you think today’s kids are more violent.
The shooter btw, was not a right winger. He was a nut job.
Right and he randomly just walked up to a US congresswoman and decided now is a good time to shoot God you are Naive.
What is she saying?
Young lady, guns are no defence against the government. If you believe that, you are living in la-la land with the rest of the gun-toging kooks. Do you have military training? Does your small group of friends know how to organize an attack by real troops? Do you think that owning a few guns is going to protect you if the government decides to round you up?
The idea that guns protect you from your government is sheer fantasy.
Troll alert: Your purpose has been eliminated. The ads have your position covered.
I hate to side with the righties, but the 2nd Amendment has little to do with hunting. (Personally, I’d favor a ban on hunting over more gun regulation, but that’s another story.) It is about protecting your home and family — but not just about street crime. Always good to remember the origins of our country, where a group of tax dodgers advocated and executed the violent overthrow of their lawful government. This was their milieu, not sitting in a deer stand with a 12 pack of Busch. (They probably were tanked on Barbados rum, though.)
In short, the whole idea of the 2nd and its inclusion in the BoR is about the citizen’s (or s’, if you prefer) right to defend himself against any outside force that would pull a King George.
The issue isn’t really guns, but a lack of civics education… or education in general. Looking over the shooter’s youtube, it is obvious the guy’s deranged; but he’s also the product of a very slapdash ‘education.’ We’re not in danger because of the amount of guns in this country or their availability. We ARE in serious danger when a large segment of the population are worried about socialism despite having as sensible a definition of socialism as when Homer asked Marge if their friend ‘gave her gay.’ The fuel on this fire is a corner of the media that perpetuates deliberate misinformation. This situation is combustible and a real danger to our republic. Weapons are tools, ideas drive history.
Of course, many of these people feel that democratic channels are not open to them, and they’re absolutely right. If our ruling class doesn’t let up, the desperation will get worse and people will be looking for solutions. Stupid people come to very, very bad solutions. I don’t have an answer on this. Clearly neither party has any interest in actual democratic channels, and as long as people are dim enough to be told that the problem is with a social safety net and believe it, we are in deep distress.
Kelly himself estimates that close to 90 percent of the firm’s work comes from government contracts worth tens of millions of dollars. And around the country, the firm—which is owned by Kelly’s father, Don Kelly—frequently bids on public-works projects funded by both stimulus dollars and federal earmarks.
Here in Pima County, Don Kelly Construction has recently done work on a Pima County sewer-pipeline project that was worth roughly $11 million to the company. While most of the funding for the project came from local bond dollars, $2 million came from stimulus funds.
http://www.tucsonweekly.com/tucson/in-the-pipeline/Content?oid=1816200
Jesse Kelly who lost the election to the Congresswoman despite his help remove Gabrielle by shooting an M-16 with me fundraiser like most Tea Baggers is a remove Gabrielle by shooting an M-16 is a hypocrite 90% of his family’s construction business is government contracts.
But Tea Baggers hate government spending. I want his families Government contracts ended now.
I agree. Having guns in the home or on one’s person simply makes it easy for someone to get hurt or killed.
I don’t much like hunting, but I can see a place for hunting rifles, reluctantly.
Birdman, you are completely irrational, repeating all those hate radio talking points. Something tells me you’re an old white man, and you want everyone off your lawn.
But Paul, who didn’t even know Jesus, wrote most of the new Testament and HE was definitely a man of the sword.
Most Christains don’t know that Paul wasn’t even part of Jesus’ band of disciples.
If you look at American history, you’ll find this is by no means a glitch, or one unstable person. The entire American history is entrenched in blood and murder. In a normal world, yesterday’s killings would make a nation reflect on just how violent it truly is. From killing millions at once (Japan), to killing thousands/millions over time (Iraq), to literally murdering each other by the thousands every year. Does any nation have such a bloodthirsty population? Probably, but most eventually come to terms with that, and admit it and move on (Germany, Japan, etc). Will the US? Highly unlikely. For all the touchy feely talking head politician, media, and blog “prayers”, will come nothing. Murders will continue throughout the nation unabated. Drone bombings of innocent women and children wil continue unabated. Rhetorical BS talking points on the virtues of owning weapons will continue unabated. The only thing that will ever invoke change of any kind, is when the nation known as the Republic of the United States is brought to it’s knees either financially, or through war. History repeats itself on all superpowers, who get to the point where nothing they ever do is wrong morally against anyone, and they have to justify this by needing killing weapons. Good luck USA. You are all going to need it.
Hmmm….Being outnumbered at least 100 to 1 won’t make any hypothetical government take over a walk in the park as you seem to suggest. They won’t smile. And there are many, many more trained veterans out there than there are active duty service members, even if you could get each and every one of them to shoot their neighbors. Just sayin’
This morning CBS Sunday Morning had a short on bullying. They showed a young woman who just could not really “get it” that “words have consequences.”
I sent an e-mail to the program telling them to talk to Sarah, Rush et al about whether they see themselves as bullies.
They don’t “get it” at all.
Goes to conspiracy. also, that he wasn’t a “lone gunman”.
I thought the same thing. I own more guns that I can carry, but realize that I’d last 0 seconds vs. government equipped forces. All the technology….it is fantasy. I also sleep at night so I’d miss the 4:00 door breach….
Actually, I get a kick out of them. An exchange of email joking about NSA surveilling comments results in an ad for surveillance equipment. Giggles.
And do you think that by outlawing guns, anything you said would be different?
If my friends are former or even current military personnel, then yes, we can be trained. If food is scarce or nonexistent, a gun would come in handy for hunting. Why is someone who owns a gun automatically a “kook”?
Left to themselves, I am sure basic decency would be the determining factor in almost all of us. Under the constant bombardment by corporate interests insisting that we are in danger from whatever the threat of the moment is, not many have the judgment and distance from media to look into their hearts and find what is important to themselves.
It’s still irrelevant. What difference does it make to this subject how many there were or whether or not conspiracy was involved. that might have some relevance on a thread exploring that possibility but as far as access to firearms, it’s entirely immaterial.
But, but…government is bad. That effluent should flow down the unpaved streets to the Rillito. /s
So we censor free speech?
Who gets to do the censoring?
For the record I’m not a Fox person. I voted for Obama.
I am a Second Amendment person.
Who defines a hate merchant?
No, the shooter’s mother. she didn’t seem to take his rantings seriously at all.
I guess one gets immune…..or maybe agrees to a certain extent. She could have been afraid of him
Didn’t pay attention, basically
If we lose Rep. Giffords, the choice will be Gov. Brewer’s.
This is a load of crap. Both sides are guilty here, and the gunman was espousing political views from both sides. The right used to be crazy, and it’s true they still are. But the left has become increasingly unhinged itself, and quite reactionary. So reactionary that it can’t even make sense out of what it wants. People here and on the right both opposed the health care law, for example, Look what happened when Jane did something that made sense and tried to work with Norquist on the issue. She was roundly excoriated, practically crucified, because the left plays a cooties game with the right, just like the right plays with the left. It’s ducking ridiculous. We’re all Americans.
Definitely worth reading, from Steve Benen’s Washington Monthly column:
We may come to a point fairly soon at which the investigation of yesterday’s massacre is complete, and we learn that the shooting was “just” the result of psychotic madman. “Oh,” some might say, “then the political climate is irrelevant; violent rhetoric in the mainstream is inconsequential; and everything’s fine.”
No matter what the outcome of the Tucson investigation, everything isn’t fine.
RELATED POINTS THAT AREN’T MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE….
Damn I wish MyFDL had the toolbar for comments.
thoughts ..
even if Congresswoman Giffords herself had been carrying a gun yesterday, even had it in her very hand as she spoke, it would not have protected her. gun violence is instantaneous. the assailant will win.
the mainstream media continue to normalize pure evil, and, when even bothering to notice it as such, reflexively attribute it to me and my liberal ideas rather than to its actual purveyors.
obama and drones. our duly elected president is a murderer and torturer. so there’s that.
the cheney-chertoff complex is drooling afresh at growth opportunity. my workplace on capitol hill will surely see even more piles of cop cars on cop cars, road barriers, x-rays, searches, guilty-till-proven-innocent.
corporate mainstream media. THE malignancy destroying our nation.
If a bad guy was coming through your window you might not hate them so much.
Cynthia Kouril has a new thread, above, on Wikileaks.
Thanks everyone who supports sane restrictions on gun ownership, for all of our sakes.
In places where they’ve banned them for a time (Chicago for one) the murder rate actually went up. The bad guys will always be able to get guns. Always.
False equivalence. More of the “they both do it” BS.
And Jane didn’t try to work with Norquist on health reform. It was an entirely different thing — a call for Rahm Emanuel’s resignation over his Freddie Mac activities. Please get your facts straight.
Very smart.
The left is responsible for shooting the congresswoman it worked so hard, and barely succeeded in electing? Now that really is irrational.
Sure they do. they”get” millions from fomenting this stuff. Remember O’Reilly was instrumental in getting Dr. Tiller murdered.
He sorta lost his audience after that, don’t hear too much from him.
I think even most right wingers don’t want the reality of their views to punch them in the face.
By the way, it doens’t look to good for Giffords. But I bet the doc are keeping her in a coma until her brain swelling goes down.
That beautiful little 9 years old is most tragic
And we all know how that will work out.
Normalizing pure evil is the only way the wingnuts traditionally administering corporate policies can be rendered acceptable.
Taking off our shoes to go into Safeway? I think not.
How about this. The GUNMAN is responsible. Our collective vitriol created the environment where his snapping would point in a political direction. You are in denial if you think the left is any better than the right. A pox on both your houses.
But if there were restictions (say no CC) yesterday do you think the shooter would have abided by the rules? Of course no. He was on a mission.
In truth if someone in the crowd had a gun and was quick enough to react this whole thing may not have happened. Sure, it would have been a long shot but……
Banning ammo is the same as banning guns. Gun owners are way ahead of you. There are several billion rounds of ammo already in gun owners hands. Do you think they would ever turn that over? Not likely.
They both do do it. The Democrats, for example, had a map in 2008 just like Sarah Palin’s last year, in which targets were used for republican incumbents. You won’t be reading about that on any so-called progressive blogs. That is not false eq
Try again false equivalence.
The Gunman was espousing political views from both sides?
Nope only Glen Beck thinks Hitler and Marx were both Lefties only a Glen Beck viewer would think to claim both of them in their favorite book category. But muck like Glenn himself we seriously doubt the Murderer read either book.
But the left has become increasingly unhinged itself, and quite reactionary.
Yes we rant on the radio about killing Righties we joke about poisoning Nancy Pelosi’s Tea on tv…. oh wait Nancy is a Dem and Glen did that.
State examples from TV and Radio where the Left has advocated violence.
We are all Americans even Mexicans, Muslim’s, Gays, Women the Left fights for our rights the Right keeps saying we are not Americans and don’t deserve rights.
No doubt the gov will dry her tears and ‘move on’.
You simply don’t mess with the Second Amendment.
You live with it.
If you look at WORLD HIS-story you’ll find it’s been the same in every country which aspires to empire…
Right, because my facts being slightly off makes it so much easier for you to ignore the very real cooties game you continue to play,. Politics is not elementary school. It’s time for the grown ups to take control.
Good point.
who’s in denial? have you been paying attention ?
==edited by mod==
Thanks Ruth !
Didn’t know she was a Blue Dog
Perhaps you should read what is written then, and comment accordingly, since nothing about licensing and controlling sales of guns is limiting the right to bear them responsibly.
It could have just been opportunity. the kid could have gone after any dem
As you no doubt know, that is not happening and in the face of declining funds for social programs, is increasingly rare.
Thanks for a great and provocative subject Ruth. It’s important to point out that not all of us who do support reasonable restrictions to who, how and where people can carry firearms want to ban them completely or even think that’s a viable option any more. Nor does everybody who supports gun ownership think it should be okay for people to walk around shopping malls and restaurants armed and that everybody, regardless of all considerations but age should be able to own a firearm. I happen to be one of those who both supports reasonable restrictions and ownership rights. Those aren’t exclusive positions in anything but a black and white world and that’s not the world I inhabit.
You people miss a basic point. It’s not just the wingnuts that cherish the Second Amendment. Listen to one of your own…..
a well-armed citizenry is the only defense against fascist storm troopers who might one day invade our homes and strip us of our rights
—–Senator Bernie Sanders, only admitted socialist in the Senate
Citation? Link? Without both what you just said is just bullshit.
Loughner appears to be “conservative” only in a loose sense — he hates abortion rights, is paranoid about government power, and obsesses over states’ rights — but given his madness, he doesn’t necessarily fall along the traditional left-right spectrum. The truly crazy rarely do.
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/
Funny statement the author writes Loughner supported 3 GOP stands on the issues and not one Lefty issue but in the MSM’s mind there must always be a false moral equivalence.
If the GOP Media is going to claim he was a Lefty or balanced politically then show me an equal amount of Lefty positions on issues he holds so far I have not seen one.
But But he reads Marx and Hitler
Sorry lots of folks claim to read books to look smart and the only person I know who links Marx and Hitler is Glen Beck.
Face it the Left and the Right don’t like each other’s ideas at best we both only read the other side’s books to check up on what the other guys are saying.
Or because we need a laugh.
This guy formed his imaginary book list listening to Glenn Beck
A perfect case in point. I have a different point of view, so of course my genitals must be verbally attacked. This is what the left does to women it doesn’t approve of. It’s been sickening to watch the least few years.
The states that now allow CC has exploded over the years. This is a very good thing. When trouble comes you can’t dial 911 and instantly have a cop there.
His politics are irrelevant. Period.
And thank you.
I understand the frustration many of you express but we have a people problem, not a gun problem.
Oh, thanks, Sir. My first laugh out loud today. I’m so glad you decided to stay unlurked.
Thanks for entering into this round, too; you will no doubt be unsurprised to know there is legislation under consideration in Austin to let members of educational institutions carry concealed weapons too? sigh.
The problem comes when you try to “convict” a person of being crazy before he commits any act of violence. Who gets to make that judgment call?
Amen Ruth! I would agree with you that assault weapons and huge capacity magazines should be out ex-legis if all our leaders were as vigilant of our civil liberties as the Obama administration. A government that abrogated every treaty on international war including the Geneva convention and encouraged the use of torture in a way that would have shamed Grotius in the 17th century left office just 24 months ago. If they can do it over there, they can do it over here. On the way home from dumping the Tea, the rioters tarred and feathered the British Custom House man.I do not know if many survived having boiling pitch applied to them but I suppose some did. Do you trust these clowns that were just elected to not do the same to you? Events like this engender great passion and sometimes we let passion rule . Remember the words of Benjamin Franklin today more than ever.” Passions may soon rule and they seldom rule well.”
Zenostoa
Yes, the natural state of children is happy.
Just….Don’t…..Blame….Sarah!!!!
Palin Aide: Crosshairs On Target List Not Actually Gun Sights
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/01/palin-aide-crosshairs-on-target-list-not-actually-gun-sights.php
Um..ah, not responsible in any way. Well we already knew THAT
I know there are gun nuts in this country but there are also millions who own guns for self protection. To them a gun is nothing more than a tool. A tool that might save your life.
You keep talking about the hate merchants. I honestly don’t watch those guys (or listen to Sarah) but what do you suggest? Censoring those you judge as hate merchants? How do you determine this?
I agree.
Yeah. Hopefully this will put the brakes on it but I’m sure the demagogues will use it to “justify” it. Crap.
As was pointed out — with links — on another thread, the Democrats’ map was targeting vulnerable states, not vulnerable candidates.
False equivalence. Their map was not “just like” Palin’s.
Get your facts straight before you make assertions.
I didn`t know Canadians had opinions on anything but ice fishing. Have you beeen reading my stuff on this liberal virtual encounter group? I thought I was the only person on the North American Continent that felt such things and dared write them down. Keep posting here. It is great to find another up-stream swimming salmon.Sorry about the ice fishing shot,well not really. Feel free to write something almost as clever in response
Zenostoa
The events yesterday have GOT to put a dent in all the gun-love in our society.
And, the barely-concealed truth that the gun-nuts effectively keep saying to us:
“Hey, either YOU get strapped, or this is what we’ll do to you unarmed wimps!”
is, once again, front and center.
This gun “business” is NOT about freedom, it is about fear and greed (profits).
Follow the money.
I couldn’t agree more.
If Blackwater (now Xe) and local, redneck police have guns, I want one, too. Don’t feel the need to carry it with me, but I d*@n sure want one in my home. It may do little good, if I’m truly outgunned, but in the meantime, it gives me a sense of security in my home.
I must admit this tread is a bit discouraging. When a member of my family dies we don’t get together and hash up old differences, become mean spirited and argue philosophical peeves. I’m not trying to gloss over the problems but my family mourns. We remember the things we have in common and are a little bit more thankful, humble and forgiving.
I just hope the tone of threads like this are just giving people a way of expressing and dealing with shock and not ruthlessly grinding political points.
But think about it for a moment. A school shooting starts up but a teacher has a gun and is able to stop any loss of life. Maybe it’s not such a crazy idea. Kind of like pilots of airplanes. I think they have guns now.
I totally agree.
Second Amendment Remedies
http://sharronangle.blogspot.com
What else is to be expected from equally sovereign US citizens when the Obamanible Precedent in the BULLY Pulpit claims the right to assassinate any of US without the due process guaranteed US in our Constitution?!
Very good points.
Really? From where I sit the Second Amendment has always been used to OFFEND life, not do DEFEND it.
Case in point. This will be exploited by the right wingers to get more weapons out there, not fewer. And the cycle just goes on and on.
The prospects for regulating firearms in this country are approximately equal to the prospects for regulating Wall Street’s thieving banksters or corporate control of election campaigns, which is to say: Zero. Our illustrious Congress refuses to address the issue because (as with finreg and corporate personhood) the legislators have either been bribed into compliance or threatened into silence. As a result, the true “axis of evil”, comprised of the John Birch/KKK/White Supremacist/Teabagger/Republican crowd of violent half-wits, are the ones running around with guns in their pockets, glove boxes, trunks, backpacks, etc., while the rest of us are merely the next targets, tragic statistics waiting to be tallied.
What are we supposed to do, wait until the shooting starts and then call the police? The police are members of the same gun-fanatic clique, and have demonstrated that they are just as likely as the perps to target innocent citizens. That’s how they get their kicks.
Is it time for those of us who have historically opposed violence and weaponry to arm ourselves? Congress and the Supreme Court are owned by the gun lobby, so there will never be any regulation. “Law enforcement” personnel are a greater threat to public safety than the people they’re supposed to protect us from. And the rest of us are completely defenseless.
I don’t want a gun. I guess I have to find a different country to live in. This one is broken beyond repair.
The gang bangers in my neighborhood are all armed with illegal hand guns. Most of the honest citizens are armed with legal hand guns. If the rich liberals who live in safe neighborhoods succeed in disarming the honest citizens we will all be crime victims in a matter of days.
The cops work very hard at confiscating the illegal guns just like they work at confiscating illegal drugs. Yet both are cheap and available.
Please keep us lessor people in mind when you are moralizing about gun control. When the class war finally drives you down among the poor you may be surprised to discover that you have no police protection and your neighbors are armed and dangerous.
Good points. Unwinding the firearm problems of this country is not on the horizon.
As for “inflammatory rhetoric”, it is unfortunate in any discourse. But it is likely that the alleged killer in this instance may be a mentally disturbed person who saw a Congresswoman as his John Lennon ticket to fame. We won’t know for some time. Meanwhile, guns and politics as discussion points seems premature.
Well said Great White Beaver! Soon the American dollar, the American economy and the American Empire will all come crashing down. Many will perish in the hardships that ensue. Still, it can’t happen soon enough.
Yes it is.
Zenostoa
Nobody who ever grew up in a white trash town can believe that. Childhood for most is a constant war zone where the bullies always win. Only white upper middle class kids have a chance to be happy and most of them end up stressed by their freaky up-wardly social mobile parents. Getting taught your place in the pecking order is only fun when you learn you are on top not on the bottom.
Zenostoa
Mr. Billybugs did you ever read a history book about our Scots-Irish forebearers? You doubt they would have approved such weapons? They would have been first in line at the gun store. They were armed with the most deadly weapons of the 18th century. They had rifles that could kill at 300 yards and not be accident. My grand father donated our family`s Kentucky Rifle to the New York State National Guard. It was 175 years old at the time.His grand sons and great grand sons visit it as shrines by pilgrims. it was carried at the battle of Sartoga. My great grandfather to the sixth power would have traded it in a heart beat for an Ak with a 50 round clip.
Zenostoa
Most gun owners are law abiding serfs who would do what their government said was right even turning in their shooters and ammo. A few die hards would take to the hills,develop guerilla bands,rob banks,and make Afghans look like Carmelte nuns. Small price to pay inded for a gun free society.
Zenostoa
Zenostoa, a child learns fear from the behaviors and intonations of adults. A child learns to distrust and even hate those who are … “different” from observing the behavior and hearing the language of adults.
Fear and hatred are learned, they are NOT inherent in the species.
DW
SEE?! If everybody woulda’ been packin’, this woulda’ never happened. He’da been to skeered to pull his shit. And, if he did anyways, thereda’ been a cupla’ hunnert folks to shoot back. Now THAT woulda’ taught him a lesson. A few thousand rounds of randomly aimed/fired live ammunition in a crowd! HOT DAMN!
My Dear Mr. Knut. One armed man can`t do much when the Gestapo come a knocking. Five armed men hiding out in the hills making hit and run raids can tie down 500 Storm troopers. Learning to fight and kill comes natural. If you survive the first week odds are you just might survive the next. The Tito partisans learned on the job as did the Viet Minh under Ho. Cowering in fear and being a slave is no life.” Recurda las palabras de Zapata.” it is better to die on your feet than live on your knees. One other thing you can take a few of them with you, an alternative denied 6 million Jews.
Zenostoa
“only those who are deeply fearful, have a “need” for weapons”.
I’m gonna disagree. You don’t need to be fearful to have need of a firearm. In many cases you only have to be realistic. Arizona is an “open carry” state. I wonder how many fewer casualties there would have been if one of Gifford’s staffers or a supporter attending the meeting had been packing. Maybe that judge or that adorable nine year-old girl, or Gifford’s staffer would be alive today.
This idea that police can protect us is ludicrous. What police do is apprehend criminals after they’ve already struck.
In fact, it’s come out that Giffords herself owns a Glock. According to your theory, she must have been one of those pitiful, fearful people.
Exactly right. That portion of the Second Amendment about a militia is often distorted by anti-gun forces. My greatgrandfather and great uncle eight generations back were both officers in the Revolutionary War and were rewarded for their service with land grants in Kentucky. One of my cousins still owns the family farm established in the late 1780′s.
It’s a tenant of faith in our family, handed down from generation to generation, that gun ownership was meant to insure that the citizenry could resist and overthrow a tyrannical government. That idea may seem quaint and even ridiculous today, but you have to remember, the Consitution was written just after we’d overthrown a monarchy, and nobody at the time knew exactly how this new, experimental form of governing was going to work out.
True story: my late mother was a nice Irish lady loved by everyone on her block. But she was also a tough cookie. One night when she was in her 70′s, after my father had passed away, she awoke to the sound of someone trying to get in the back door. She gets out of bed, turns the back porch light on, asks “Who’s there?” No response. She hollers out, “I’ll call the police”. Guy keeps working on the door. Mom escalates to “I have a gun”. Whoever is outside is not deterred. Mom finally pokes the barrel of her semi-automatic between the folds of the curtain and taps it on the glass.
Intruder beats it out of there over the back fence. Which was good thinking on his part, ‘cuz she woulda emptied the clip in him if he opened the door.
Margaret’s right about the vast number of ex-military out there, not to mention hunters, current and former cops, recreational target shoots, etc. I think I read someplace a couple of years ago that something like 8 million Americans served in the armed forces during the Vietnam war. Not all of them went to ‘Nam; many served stateside or at our Cold War bases in Europe. I also saw a stat once that one in every twelve Americans was a vet. Now a lot of those are WWII and Korean War guys who are dying off, but still, that’s a lot of ex-war fighters out there.
And anyone who thinks that the military would have an easy time putting down a large-scale civilian insurrection is dreaming. Look at how much trouble we’ve had in Iraq and Afghanistan. Ask any military expert and they’ll tell you, fighting a civil war or an insurgency is many times harder than fighting a country-to-country or region-to-region conflict.
There’s also a question about GI’s being willing to shoot their countrymen. The Soviet Union collapsed because the Soviet Army refused to fire on the Russian people. In fact, soon afterward, that same army turned its tanks on Commie die-hards in the Russian parliament building. Same goes for Blackwater types. Many of them might not be so trigger-happy on domestic soil, where the outcome is in doubt and they might be subject to future criminal proceedings. And over here they couldn’t get friend from potential foe until it was too late. It’s one thing when any Arab could be an enemy. It’s something else when anyONE could be an insurgent.
It’s that kind of inane commentary that makes it difficult to get any responsible gun legislation enacted. As soon as you toss out a scenario of wild shootouts anybody who knows anything about the use of guns for self-defense or preventive deterrence just tunes you out.
It is far more likely that a mentally ill person will be the victim of violence than the perpetrator of it according to FBI statistics. I doubt that the gunman is mentally ill. His writings are no more crazy that Glen Beck’s. There has been no evidence offered to support the mental illness claim other than “only a mentally ill person would do something like this.”
Statistics show that this is not the case. It is time to stop this bigotry against the mentally ill. If the shooter’s actions had been ascribed to his race, gender, or ethnicity, there would be an outcry.
Maybe the murderer was just ignorant enough to believe the right wing hate talk. I think this is by far the most likely explanation. Extreme conservatives frequently not only admit to ignorance on various topics, but are proud of said ignorance.
It is a failure of our educational system. This is what happens when school boards are under control of local average citizens instead of local educators. This allows school boards to rewrite history till it has no resemblance to reality, as in Texas. How are our citizens supposed to understand our government when they aren’t even taught its history accurately?
Conservatives are trying rewriting history to suit their beliefs. Soon, unless students read about history outside of school, we will end up with even more citizens with with no real understanding of our country in a historical context. Lacking this understanding allows for people to eliminate facts that they are uncomfortable with. We just had a prime example of how conservatives do this when congress read the constitution. They left out the part about prohibition and defining slaves as 3/5 a person. Instead of people seeing how our constitution can grow and correct mistakes they were left with the impression that it is somehow static and sacrosanct.
Is it any wonder we have an ignorant populace that can be incited to violence by conservative hate speech?
It’s overheated rhetoric like Ms Calvo’s that causes a huge swathe of the American public to tune out liberals–but I’m sure Scalia and Co. admire her willingness to shred the Constitution to comfort her biases.
“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State . . .”.
The founders knew exactly what they were doing. They didn’t know anything about Glocks, any more than they knew about Predator drones, warrantless wiretapping, or extraordinary rendition. But they knew what they had had to do to defend themselves against a tyrannical regime.
I’d also point out that far more people are killed in the US every year by misprescribed or misadminstered medications than are killed by firearms. And also that human beings are by nature, violent, and that attempts to legislate violence out of the species have not yet worked.
But keep on typing, Ms Calvo!
True. Organized revolutionary activity is not the same thing as shooting whichever political candidates you don’t like. And even Marx and Engels advocated socioeconomic transformation by peaceful and legal reform whenever possible; even for them, revolution was essentially a last resort.
The wealthy elite “ruling class” do not govern. There is no governance.
Eight elephants govern: war, immigration, ecology, recession, foreclosure, joblessness, tax, and debt.
The wealthy elite prefers eight elephant rule.
The desperate poor cannot govern.
Middle America must govern the wealthy elite and the desperate poor. Middle America must face up to its destiny and take charge of both.
When this happens, America will regain its footing at home and around the world.
I think there are some legitimate reasons to be afraid in the United States today, not least the clearly demonstrated contempt for the Fourth Amendment by two successive Presidential administrations, one of them Democratic. I support licensing, and rules that exclude from ownership people with a history of psychological instability. But the criteria for gun ownership must not be a high barrier. Emerging reasons for gun ownership include the evolving culture of corporate malfeasance, already developed to quite a high level in the foreclosure fraud crisis. Further to that, so many states, counties and municipalities are facing such economic hardship that civic services have begun to suffer. This is even reflected in the instant tragedy by the very poor EMS response time to the Giffords shooting site — 30 minutes! I would be surprised to hear an expert tell me today that police responses had not already begun to slow. The barrier must not be set too high. In the times to follow shortly, I believe more people will have a reasonable need for firearms.
Name one person on the Right who is reasonable. Don’t fool yourselves, if you are a progressive: a considerable number on the Right want to kill you. Plain and simple. Take advantage of your right to bear arms. Purchase a weapon and learn to use it. Be prepared to defend yourselves. Or not.
Wow, that’s really helpful.
Yeah, “wow”.
And a little class-based, regional bigotry from a free-thinking progressive! Nice job; when you need to start a dialogue to gain some political traction, you instead throw insults like teabagger.
“…a reasonable need for firearms.”
You mean a “reasonable need” of the ability to kill or maim others?
It was said during the last great depression that , “All we have to fear is fear itself.” In this great depression, economic, societal, and deeply personal for far too many human beings, all we seem to “have” IS fear.
The question increasingly becomes simply this: Are humans, now, afraid of dying or are they afraid of living … with other human beings?
watsterns, what you seem to be suggesting is that if more people had been “packing”, in Arizona, that there would have been less violence. I would suggest that the carnage, the killing of innocents would have been far greater. And ANY notion that an armed public can protect itself from the armed might of as government, particularly THIS government … is patent nonsense.
However, I do not understand how gun ownership can possibly protect ANYONE from corporate greed (and its attendant, very real, violence}? Perhaps you might explain your reasoning in this particular regard. WHO, specifically, are you, or anyone else, planning to shoot if corporations, with the full power of a corrupted legal system behind them, engage in “malfeasance” toward you?
DW
Most people who own guns have NEVER had to face the REALITY of using said gun to kill another human being.
When a shooting hell breaks loose, MOST people are NOT able to react reasonably, consciously, or rationally, despite what they imagine.
It is not a simple thing, and confusion reigns.
It my sincere hope that most human beings will NEVER find themselves in such a situation. Having a gun, knowing how to shoot a gun, does not confer either judgement or true courage, and the “range” for horrific error is larger than you seem to imagine.
Unless one is prepared to randomly pull the trigger, most people simply cannot really be clear about what is going on … when the shooting starts.
However, if we all come to “believe” that life is cheap, then it certainly will become so. If we furhter “believe” that civility and humanity are are spent, then they will be …
Welcome to the future.
It is up to us, each of us, individually, to decide and choose, through our understanding and our behavior, what it will be …
Or, we can allow fear … to decide.
DW