Something we’ve all probably come up against at some time in our lives is the surprise of being categorized one way or another. Of course, being a liberal blogger is a natural, anyone who knows that about us will have some expectations about what we are like. Some have a positive image, some not, but it’s all about their belief until they meet with a real person.
As women, and/or as men, we all have such experiences as being expected to behave according to someone else’s idea of us. I even have astigmatism, and in truth, I did look down my nose at people until I got glasses in high school.
All of us have something in our background, though, that will prejudice another person toward us or against us, that just doesn’t happen to be what we’re about.
Sadly, immediately most of you realize that as a Texan, I get all sorts of strange reactions. A confession; I never roped a cow, and my only existing pair of blue jeans was given to me this month by our friend spudtruckowner.
I’m a child of the 60′s, a hippy and a liberal blogger, but I didn’t go to Woodstock. I was working and didn’t have the time. It may have been great fun to many who went there, but it sounded wet and miserable to me. I did get to a Boston performance by Bobby Dylan playing rock music, and some in the crowed did boo and yell at him. So I’m not a totally lost cause, maybe.
What are your confessions? Anyway you get someone else’s ideas imposed on you of what you ought to be, but aren’t?
My mother is part cajun from Arcadia, LA, and I’ve never had homemade gumbo or jambalaya except for what I made myself from a recipe I had to look up. I have family in California that don’t surf and actually aren’t very hip either.
It was nice visiting in NW PA earlier this month, and seeing more horse drawn buggies than cars along the back roads, and having fresh made maple syrup. But I have to tell you, I didn’t get a single bit of homemade cheese, not even curds.
When I went to Boston from the south, I thought I had reached Utopia until the day I drove into the city with a man from Kenya. Those looks would have competed with certain magazine cover photos taken in Little Rock when the schools there integrated.
As a colorful family saying goes, wearing a ring doesn’t make you a bathtub. We all know that it doesn’t make someone a thief to wear a hoodie (or an Armani suit), but that doesn’t stop the stereotyping.
Thinking through stereotypes can give us a clear view that we need to operate in a complex world.
Have you found out you were accepting someone’s label as true, when it was all just a prejudice?




361 Comments

Good morning, pups. The coffee is good, but no sweet rolls.
Nice theme today, Ruth! Immediately brought to mind something I mentioned a few weeks ago at the Diner. A couple of times my son has responded to a comment about politics in a discussion with others, “Mom is far left of far left.” The clear implication is dismissive, i.e., “don’t pay attention to her views, because she’s a lefty.”
He is “a lefty” too, although because of work and family pressures doesn’t get too much into politics. I am much more knowledgeable about politics than probably anyone else in my family, partly because I hang out here and also read Glenzilla and others of similar persuasion.
I mused at the time (at the Diner) that I really should confront him about this.
If Demi shows up, check her pockets.
Wonderful Saturday Morning, Ruth Calvo!
What a thoughtful subject. I like it.
Earlier in the week, oldgold shared a link to a video that was a wonderful Don’t Judge A Book By Its Cover lesson..
And, now I’ve passed it on to the Saturday Morning Gang. :)
I’m also left of most in this family, but my son knows when he has a question I often have come across the answer. So I get to be a political consultant on the left. Love it.
Thanks, and okay, empty your pockets, msmolly is on to you. Hope your birthday went well?
Good morning all.
Characterizing me unflatteringly seems to be a bit activity for a few at FDL. Does not speak well of them.
Har de har har.
No sweet rolls, but I have some nice brown bread left over from dinner out last night.
And, so the question is, what makes the brown in brown bread? Is it the type of flour used?
It’s your New Yawk accent, no doubt. I find that there’s always something wrong with anyone who disagrees with certain sorts.
Hey, babe, get in line.
I guess it might be human nature to form a general opinion about others. I’m wondering where the line is between general characterisation and over generalizing. Are all people who keep rusted out old cars in their front yards red necks? Or, are all pretty women stuck up? Or, are people who refuse to listen to another’s side of a story just deaf?
Questions.
Morning Ruth,
I am not aware of being stereotyped, maybe being a white 3rd or 4th generation european male with an ordinary appearance has something to do with that. Innocence of feeling stereotyped I think makes it difficult to notice the prevalence of it. So now I try to be on the lookout for it. Sometimes that makes me a scold.
Happy, happy Demi….Sorry I missed you yesterday.
Another day older and deeper…(Never mind) ;)
Hopefully, brown is from wheat. If it’s from dye, the bread suffers.
Brown how? Like whole grain brown? Can be the flour but also other things. I’m not a bread expert. Boston brown bread has molasses in it, along with stuff like rye flour, but I would guess it’s sweet.
Hmmmm. It was Outback Steakhouse, so I hope it was from the flour.
I had such a swell day yesterday. Sonny junior drove me to the nursery where I bought an orange bouganvilla and a nice large terra cotta pot. We played in the garden for a while. And, last night the boys took me out to dinner. It was a lovely day. Thanks.
Good morning all.
This 57 year old DFH has really been enjoying the dirty looks my long hair attracts from small town rednecks.
I get used to it, since here I get told I talk like a Yankee, then I go north and find out I drawl. But really, I’m perfect!
There has been far, far too much of that this past week or so at the Lake. I’ve been finding other things to do and not hanging out here as much, partly because of that.
I am really put off by stuff like that.
My concern when I brought up my son’s characterization of me was whether to confront it, on the spot or later. I love him dearly and we get along very well and I could simply choose to ignore it. But he’s done it with his wife (second wife, married about 18 months) AND with his son, my grandson, so it hits home.
By “boys” I am guessing you mean Sonny and The Mister. Any mending with the other son? (Not to get too personal, don’t answer if I am…)
Wear a ‘grid’ if you want some strange looks. (That’s teeth decoration.)
Without meaning to get all political at PUAC, yes, that’s exactly why I’ve been avoiding FDL lately. I’m tired of being declared an Obamabot because I express my disgust at all the reflexive hatred that people so blithely throw around. It’s not the “debate” that I shy from, it’s the blind rage and hate. But maybe we’re talking about life not in the cyber world. In that case, I think it would be the whole Texan thing too. When I was in the service, I never went to a place where people didn’t have some very stubborn, (and sometimes very odd), ideas about what a Texan should be.
Good morning all and Happy B-Day (((demi)))
Thanks, Bev. I’m just glad none of my body parts have fallen off. Yet.
I saw that referenced WRT Treyvon Martin (I think they called it a “gold grill” and I had to look it up. They’re just throwing anything they can think of to excuse Zimmerman and blame Martin’s death on his ownself.
That was our first thought too. Molasses. But, it wasn’t sweet at all. The only sweet part of the meal was the mint jelly for the lamb.
*Waves madly to Margaret* Happy to see you here!
You and I are singing the same song.
For me, it’s people pre-judging me for my long hair.
As a bonus , people I pre-judge as nut cases, distance themselves from me for my long hair .
eCAHN how long would you hang around if everyone was as smart as you ?
Molassas? Do I win?
“Get in the car, longhair.”
Hey ya, Claus!
Hi, you’re always welcome here, and as you’ve no doubt noticed, I get after the haters too. We have much better things to deal with than the daily hating on the preznit, imho.
I guess I missed that action, unfortunately I have other things need doing.
I probably shouldn’t say this but getting to hang out with this group of (mostly) women whenever I want with no risk or responsibility other than trying not to be an asshole is a very happy circumstance.
Heh, now that you have a pair of jeans, you’re getting closer.
Lamb at Outback?? Gee, I’ll have to go there sometime, lamb is a fave. I usually only go to that sort of steakhouse with my daughter and family, and it’s usually Logan’s (I think…or Texas Roadhouse).
Oh the smearing is loathsome! Grasping at something-anything-to make Trayvon responsible for his own murder at the hands of a very ill Caucasian racist. I mean, I was appalled when Rivera went to FOX “News” but that whole hoodie thing was about as bilious as it gets.
Wise choice. Besides, after a point you can donate to Locks of Love, for kids who’ve lost their hair in cancer treatment.
Not a peep. Sad to say, but not surprised either. Some years he has called me on the 31st for my bday, though. Really not even going to worry about it.
Just goes to show, all generalizations are wrong…
Nah, I thought of it first! BUT as I was typing I was thinking, “Paging nonquixote!” and here you are. I want some of the bean veggie soup you made!
No way I’m telling that they’re from up North.
Two of my granddaughters have done that (my daughter’s girls). You have to donate 10 inches and of course have enough left over to style in some fashion. Less difficult with men, probably (the styling).
That generalization as well?
;-}
Leftovers are even better. As soon as I had a bowl full, I had room to add a few more veggies.
Actually, not just kids. The hair goes into wigs for anyone who has lost her hair for any reason. Mostly cancer treatment, but not always. There are other causes.
;) Indeed, that is a lot to be thankful for. Celebrate!
Peggy! Let’s call a shovel, a shovel. Too much hate talk. Too much categorizing with too little facts in evidence. And, just saying that one is trying to be friendly and open and peaceful, does not make it so.
I like Ruth’s ring/bathtub analogy. I know you have a couple more of those type of sayings. Share?
I don’t understand your question.
LOL. Nice one.
When I first moved to Texas with my lake wobegone accent, people would test me with a gratuitous n word. Don’t notice it much anymore.
My cute little 8 year old Peanut has donated twice to locks of love.
She got her picture in the local newspaper in color.
I’ll be over later. Nothing like a soup with all my favorite veggies in it.
Here’s one I use:
Attending church doesn’t make you a Christian any more than standing in a garage makes you a car.
Used to be a baker. We put Molasses to darken the bread, not for taste.
All flour is brown unless bleached. Funny story, I worked for Albert baking and he would throw a handful of pumpkin in the dough for a color than hinted butter. We would hear the customers rave about the buttery taste they were not tasting.
Grinnin’ like a mule eating briars, a favorite.
It seems to me that stereotyping is just a natural result of the seemingly ubiquitous human desire/need to feel superior to others. Better than. It’s like the whole Earth as the center of the universe thing that’s been going on for thousands of years. First Earth was the center of everything….until that was proved wrong. Then our solar system was the center of everything…until that was proven wrong. Then our galaxy was shown to not be the only galaxy, then it was shown to not be the largest or the grandest galaxy. Even today in a world where planets have been shown to be extremely common, the “rare Earth” theory is yet another iteration of this “special place for humanity” theme. I’m sure when it’s shown that our system is just a mundane example of an average system, there will be yet another “theory” about how we occupy a special place in the order of things. As we are an expression of the universe becoming self aware, I really don’t see how we could be more “special” though. I guess I’m just weird.
Mine goes there every four years. And I love the look you get from rednecks when I tell them that. Like you just knocked them on their ass.
Heh. Good one, that.
“Call me a taxi.”
“OK. You’re a taxi.”
That’s cool! When my daughter asked her oldest the first time if she wanted to donate her hair, it sorta freaked her out. She couldn’t imagine someone else “wearing” her hair. When she got older (probably about 9) she thought it was a good idea and did it. The younger one just donated this year and she is 9.
Both dance ballet, so there’s the concern about having enough hair left to put in some sort of bun when they dance, and they worked around recitals and performances. I suspect they’ll do it again, but it takes a long time to grow hair that long.
Thanks. I call it the Mobius argument.
And be a skinhead ?/s
Nobody wants this fine falling out hair.
Drat. Didn’t win the lottery.
Hey, nonquixote, would you share your baked macaroni and cheese recipe you mentioned that uses organic chicken broth? It sounded wunnerful.
That’s one reason science is in big trouble with the fundies, it keeps proving that we’re not special by design.
I have a great store of analogies but since they are being asked of me, I can’t come up with one. Better try to engage my brain first!
On a different note, I got a raise!
Congratulations on the raise!
You tell me. I was going to write to you later and ask.
Spot on! They hate the thought that we just occupy an ordinary place in the universe but I still can’t think of anything more “special” than being sentient and thus able to even ask those questions.
W00t! Good for you!!
Thanks. At eight percent, it’s nothing to throw a party about but as I’m one of just two who got a raise, I guess I’m doing something right. And eight percent isn’t horrible!
Lovely. What good judgment by your employers!
Woot with the raise and I love your short word stories like @ 53! Paints a nice picture as I read it.
So, what are you saying? That your hair isn’t turning gray so much as turning loose? ;)
My sister, who was born on my 5th birthday, just made her Locks for Love contribution. I’m celebrating with her on Monday and will get a peek at her new “do”.
M, I think this desire to feel superior is mostly an over reaction to just trying to feel equal. I think trying to feel equal is motivated by all the years of infancy and childhood when we most defintely did not feel equal. We are able to remember of few of the insults and humiliations but the vast majority have gone underground but the feeling is still there and the fear of it happening again provokes the defenses and attacks. I think of the many kids who can’t keep up in school who wake up every morning wondering how bad the humiliations are going to be that day. Just my take but I will not commit the sin of certainty.
Just yesterday I had a bit of disagreement on Facebook with a friend (not a close friend, but I’ve known her for several years) and former work colleague. She is a far right fundy anti-abortion Christian, so I simply stay away from both religion and politics, and almost never comment on her FB posts.
But she posted one of those graphics people like to put up (both lefty and righty), this one with a derogatory message about atheists, that ended “and they mock MY religion?” My reply was very courteous remark that most atheists believe in science and evolution. She came back with some quote from Wiki that she thought supported the graphic.
So I pointed out that her Wiki quote didn’t support the graphic at all, and ended with “I don’t mock your beliefs. Don’t mock mine.”
Haven’t been back to FB to see if she’s replied or not. I won’t continue it, of course.
eCAHN,
Sitting here thinking about all this. If people feel they have to view you in unflattering ways, I think it’s just because they are jealous.
Heh, you’ll always be the hip chick who leaves umbrellas and gloves on the train. :)
I stopped down thread to leave Suz a wake up note, (hopefully cheer her a bit) snagged the lucky 99, and I think my good luck started at an early age, if the family story is true.
Mornin’ all!
For as long as I’ve known myself, I’ve never questioned my motives for doing anything (I’m shameless). For the most part, I see others’ attempt to pigeon-hole me as harmless to me; a mere attempt to define (pigeon-hole) themselves vis-a-vis others.
So, there is never any surprise.
Inevitably, and very quickly (after very few words spoken by me), the other person comes to the conclusion that this is not someone they can fuck with mentally!
Hmmm… so you’re saying that it’s sort of an example of what I call “little man syndrome” but applied to the general population?
Eight percent is a great raise, Margaret. For the last few years I worked we got only 2% or 3% and I was a good employee. Especially in this economy, they were trying to keep from laying off people so cut in other ways, including raises.
Good mornign all. Thanks for a wonderful topic Ruth.
Congrats Margaret. Couldn’t happen to a nicer, harder working person.
Hope your Birthday was more than you could have hoped for, demi.
LClausen,
I too have long hair and am mid 50′s. In Texas it would not be a surprise to be looked down on for that. Surprisingly that has not been my experience. (it may be due in part to my proximity to the very liberal, by Texas standards, Austin)
Ruth,
Are you saying that people would get a mental picture of a Peasant and automatically associate me with that image?
Scene II: Pantaloons were rustling through the Indigo as she quickly skirted towards the deeply shaded ground under the Live Oaks dripping with Spanish Moss.
Scene III: The CEO had had enough of the slight minded group around the board table. They were adjusting their ties, tapping pens on the pads, and anxiously glancing to the head of the table. Waiting for a response was torture. The loud boom of a maddened voice didn’t happen. Instead, a very ladylike voice oozed consternation through the room. “That’s it guys. Work with it or give me your resignation before the end of the day.”
Not to go all economicsy on you, but 8% is unheard of large in today’s economy.
As a devout atheist i’m outraged.
Sorry no recipe. Had a cup of store bought organic chicken broth, added it to the shredded cheese mixed in with the partially cooked mac and a bit of milk, in a oiled baking dish. Just substituted eight oz of pepper jack shredded into the mix. Topped with bread crumbs to prevent the mac from getting too crisp in the oven, the liquid bubbles up into the bread crumbs a bit. It is not made exactly the same twice.
Unfortunately, the rules of engagement are used by these types of folks as a cudgel with which to strike out at you but should never be forced upon them. Since what they believe and say is obviously “right”, those rules don’t apply.
I think you are definetly on to something with that!
I am partway through the Sam Harris talk on free will that someone posted at the Diner yesterday. It is an eye opener and you might enjoy it. I’m going to finish it in a bit. The bottom line (as far as I’ve watched) is that there is no such thing.
Sam Harris on “Free Will” (YouTube)
JClausen,
Most sincere apologies for the L @80. (fat fingers and no edit function)
Yup. She mostly posts pics of her granddaughter and other personal or work stuff, rarely about religion (except she keeps urging people to go see “October Baby”), but this was too much and I had to respond. I kept it civil and low key. I don’t want to create animosity.
It’s always satisfying to jar some one loose from their favorite images, something I can usually do without much effort.
Some specific brickbats have been motivated by jealousy. That is no more a flattering motivation than any other for hurling insults.
The nice thing about online, is one can just leave and read a good (or bad) book.
How was your steak dinner? Did you have cake for dessert?
Thanks foe the congrats. I didn’t mean for it to sound like I was deploring eight percent, just that I would have liked more obviously. Still, they are really relying on me pretty heavily these days.
I did learn something about myself in the last week, though. I read that some here think my style of communication is cryptic.
Those of you who know me maybe a bit better, do you see that? I’m trying to do some self analysing in the aftermath…
Perry’s funny run cost State more than 3.6 mill…and probably still counting. He has rationalized that cost is related to his Gov. job since he is representing TX..blah, blah, blah. Wonder what it would take to counter his arguement…..successfully.
Let me play to type in this comment:
I guess that means that stereotypes are socially created categories that use too few attributes, irrelevant attributes, or erroneous attributes for classification.
The irritation with being stereotyped has to do with “You don’t know enough about me to judge” or “And how does this make me that” or “That’s just not true about me”.
Thanks, it’s been a big part of my experience. Asked why arts majors almost all had long hair, I replied that it’s because they don’t make enough money for a salon, and found out that surprised the person questioning me. Always glad to enlighten folks.
Yes, but ‘little man syndrome’ makes me uneasy. It’s a very real prejudice, and an unfortunate stereotype. I think that term would fall in the same category as unattractive woman syndrome. There he goes, scolding again.
Absolutely. Coconut shrimp. Lobster, Steak, Lamb. And, ti martwonis.
Thanks, oldnslow.
People at work finally leave me alone about religion. I even have a sign I made for my door at home which simply states that my beliefs are a personal matter and not something I want to discuss with strangers.
Actually, Perry’s representation of the state hurt TX image in the national mind, I think it should be repaired out of his salary/benefits.
Yeah, apparently I’m unable to communicate without pissing somebody off. Sorry.
I don’t think there is any excuse for hurling insults. Although, I am only human, and when attacked and in the emotional moment, I have hurled some myself.
No cake. After all the other food, we were stuffed. Oh, but soooo satisfied.
Some of the comments that I perceive as cryptic, not just from you, I pretty quickly write off as my lack of a very long history with some of the other people who comment here. I am seeing relationships that I don’t follow regularly and I am sure I miss a lot of nuance.
Also, it’s all on the surface. Hopefully no one is nothing more than that.
707!
You do a fine job of that when needed, my friend. A darn fine job!
I do not think you are cryptic at all.
I do feel there is some resentment from a few posters who see how much like family we all are to each other.*g*
Dumb southerners grates on me. Altho sometimes it seems people retreat into an image of themselves that requires the least effort.
I just find that discussing religion with those who truly believe is pointless, because they begin and end with, “the Bible says” and there’s nowhere to go.
The closest I’ve come to organized religion as an adult has been the Unitarian Universalist church, which is a very big tent that includes “recovering” Catholics and atheists and pagans and everything in between. One of the principles is the respect for the inherent worth and dignity of every person. I try to live by that.
One of my fave revenges is to do something nice for someone I know hates my guts. Nothing is more infuriating, esp bc they can’t complain.
Glad to hear your dinner turned out well.
Come, sit by me.
That is another reason why people need to learn how to discuss/argue with their brothers and sisters. You may have a reason for anger, but in the real scheme of things we are all in this together.
There you go, giving us all credit for more than we’ve earned. You’re sometimes too humble for your own good.
You can be cryptic sometimes, but I think it’s more a function of trying to understand someone’s comment by reading words on a page, without tone of voice or facial expression or even immediate follow-on commentary. I don’t think it’s intentional. YOU know perfectly well what you’re thinking…but others have to read the typed words and figure it out.
It’s one of the biggest hazards of this sort of communication. I learned it long ago in my work life. “Sleep on it” before you fire off that email to someone who has upset you.
And I am far too wordy. It takes all kinds of people!
Thanks, Jim.
Some of us have known each other for a long time, and have shared many stories. We didn’t get “there” over night. We put in the time, the patience, the open minded effort to afford the luxury of Family.
I remember once, a few years ago, when I was describing the friendly nature of the gym I had joined, where we shared books and recipes, one of the commenters here said Oh, I’m so jealous. I wish I had a place like that. I stopped short of saying, So go find that place.
The good things in life to just show up on the front porch by themselves. That’s how I see it anyway.
I’ve always respected peoples’ honestly held beliefs and I will continue to do so…unless and until the person uses them as a weapon against me. Then all bets are off.
Having a pretty extensive background in biblical history, I can usually pick holes in what gets quoted at me, which is fun but not for the one on the other side of arguments. Chicago Dyke and I both have certification to teach Bible, which can be funny.
I’m fairly tall and it is a real advantage. I could become president. My mother’s term was ‘banty rooster’. She was a bit concerned when one of her French relatives married an Italian. “She’s Italian, but she’s nice”. As a child I recall trying to figure that out. I came to the conclusion that darker skin made you like the coloreds.
What has surprised me the most is the intense antipathy toward religion on this site; continues to amaze me. After 3 + years in Divinity School with serious effort, it’s been quite an eye-opener. Guess I was just naive.
Yeah, but you’re a better person than most of the rest of us. :)
Being a community is a great part of FDL, and really I pity the commenters who get on trying to poke holes in it. What a sad way to approach a bunch of people who’ve gotten along well – and supported each other – for years.
Here’s mine. From my father long ago.
“Son, they put their pants on just like you, one leg at a time”.
Funny, that ‘but’ says a lot about the particular set of prejudices she was having damaged by a nice person from the Others.
Yeah, Rev, I’ve never gotten reflexive hatred or the tarring of everybody with the same brush. We get enough of that as Texans and southerners as it is. It must be really easy to live in a solid blue state for example and express derision of people like us who lack the good sense to be in a different state. The website, “Fuckthesouth” is just as prejudicial as any of the FotF or KKK style websites imo.
15 years ago I moved from the shop floor to the front office. (engineering dept) 1 of my first emails was to point out to someone that the problem he complained about would not have arisen had he followed the company proccedures. The vitriol that ensued boardered on epic. Trial by fire for me in the dangers of this type of communication.
Heh. Maybe we were in the same Bible class in college. (For those who don’t know, Ruth & I were classmates, though we didn’t know each other back then. Bible was a required course sophomore year. OT first semester; NT second.)
It didn’t stick for me. I still own the bible we were required to buy though. Got those 4 colors for the 4 authors of the OT in the margin. Found out in the last year that analysis is now considered passe.
Did he teach you to give away your jeans too?
Good morning everyone and thank you for the post Ruth.
“hanging out with mostly women…” I resemble that. Being a man, I guess I do like to hang out here with the ladies, I learn so much.
That is just so not true. You are all wonderful, smart and caring people.
That’s why I’m here. Tis the Smarts that attracts me. And, maybe that’s why I feel I can be my sometimes cryptic self here. I know that many of you will understand what I am saying. This is one place in the world where I don’t have to dumb down. I can go to the laundrymat for that action. Know what I’m saying?
That reminds me of something a bit darker but it has always stuck with me. One of our neighbors committed suicide and when it was explained to us by our father, I asked why someone would do that and he said that he didn’t know how something that wasn’t worth living over could possibly be worth dying over. I’ve carried that since.
Argh. Forgot to type slowly and preview.
good things just Don’t show up on the front porch…
In my experience, it’s not hating religion so much as hating what use religion is put to by elements that aren’t about love and forgiveness at all.
Here’s my recipe for Mac & Cheese:
1 tbsp flour
1/4 lb butter (lightly salted)
1/2 cup dry white wine
1/2 cup organic chicken broth
2 cups heavy cream
1/2 pound Yancey’s Fancy Champagne Cheddar cheese (grated)
1/2 pound 6-cheese Italian (found grated, pre-packaged in your dairy case)
1 pound cooked (over-cook by 1 to 2 minutes), drained, seasoned with a dash (or more) of olive oil & white pepper to taste.
Baking dish, buttered
Make roue with butter & flour, till golden brown.
Add wine to de-glaze sauce-pot
Add chicken broth, bring to a boil
Add cream, bring to a boil
Lower heat to simmer
Add cheeses and melt till cheese sauce is consistency of fondue
Combine cheese sauce & macaroni; fill baking dish
Place in 350 degree oven till starting to bubble
Serve piping hot!!
Isn’t that weird? I made a lot of enemies early on by insisting that people practice basic safety. I mean, a woman in five inch heels working in the warehouse? Loose, flowing clothing around all of the spinny, chompy machinery? It’s just a miracle no one had yet been seriously injured.
I sort of read it as the same thing as antipathy toward the fundamentalists. Perhaps it is an overreaction to having religion shoved in our faces by those who think we should all believe what they do.
Speaking only for myself, I don’t feel that way about the folks who believe and practice religion, although I don’t. But those who think theirs is the only truth and want to shove it down everyone’s throat create some of that antipathy in me.
What kind of stereotype is laundramat? I feel like Ive just been brought into the “smart kids” and that has never been my identity. Enjoy.
Some of us are men, that is, well, ….
Well put! It’s not the belief so much as the actions of some of it’s adherents.
OH yum. I am saving that one.
No but after telling the Yoders you were a possum trapper from Texas, I didn’t want them to think you dressed funny.
Another example why you are worth your weight in gold.
I had to go back and read what I wrote. I make it a point(in public) to address the cashier (whomever) by the name on their name tag. I also turn to the elderly (or complete stranger) person behind me in line and start a conversation, “oh, I love those (whatever) too, and realize that I might have been the first person who as addressed them in a long time. I do this on purpose. My secret is out.
Ooops. Am I in trouble.
I take back the laundramat comment. Sorry.
5 minutes in the penalty box.
Those were a revelation (to use the term loosely), as I had never really looked closely at the reason for telling some of the stories in the Bible – and later I did Disciple studies, got certified to teach. It’s not always possible to keep my mouth shut when I hear some folks carry on about what they hear when they read their bibles.
May the universe bless you for that, Spudder.
And, my late fatherinlaw used to say Ah, don’t worry about how you look. Everyone else is too worried about how they look to even notice you.
(topic jump to an earlier comment)
Years ago I was more than a bit put off by your style of commenting here and must admit that I formed a somewhat dismissive attitude toward you on the threads as a result. That changed dramically when I had the genuine pleasure of sitting across from you at dinner one night. The experience actually made me rethink a great deal about myself. I suppose my point is those people relatively new here that ‘throw stones’ just have no idea what a wonderful and brilliant person you are.
Dude! I do that too.
(Cue the eye rolls from our kiddies. They find it embarrassing. Do you have to talk to strangers?)
My secret is out.
The permanent solution to a temporary problem.
Ah, so. Hazarding a stereotype, the female world view is most (what’s the word, what Paul had on the road to tarsus or someplace).
Those, “so that’s the way it looks to them!” moments are precious.
Then you better sleep well at night. Being nice is so easy and healthy, it’s amazing it doesn’t get more use.
Nice, thanks, clipped and pasted.
Ha! I remember an evening years ago wherein eCAHN and I were individually watching the same opera (I think) on tv and commenting on line about it. One commenter said, Well, la de da!
Wow.
Good morning pups!
Thanks for the post Ruth.
Congrats to Margaret on her raise!
RUTH!!!
You’re making me wish I’d done more in the original post about how we can make mistakes summing people up in categories. No one fits exactly, of course.
Epiphany?
Bothered by the proliferation of the concept of profiling as it relates to the case everyone is talking about. Racial profiling is an institutional thing and is descriptive of something that is not as innocuous as the term profiling suggests. I can live with institutions being accused of profiling instead of prejudice/bigotry/hate, but to talk about a lone gunman profiling sounds both anti-septic and almost giving a rational framework for an inexcusable act. We love euphemisms but I believe there are contexts in which profiling is both legal and acceptable, so really does it make sense to use the term as it relates (not to the cops) to the gunman?
My pleasure. Makes for some interesting new discussion.
Hi. Not a stereotype, a book!
The post is just fine. You launched a wonderful discussion.
And, really, at the bottom of some of this, we can see the truth and justice in Not Judging Others. Do you think?
“Dad, you know everybody!!” (rolled eyes and hands on hips) But she hops right in to bag the groceries or help out, whatever without needing to be asked.
Well I for one like this community too much to stay gone from it for long. I’m going to try to stay out of the diaries though and those things that I know will irritate me. I don’t wanna always play the heavy but when people say stupid things that are so obviously wrong, it’s really hard for me to bite my tongue, both in the real world and our little cyber representation of it. I can’t stop calling bullshit when I see it. It’s always been my own cross to bear as it were.
Will give it a listen when I get a chance; 1 hour plus, I don’t have right now. If U choose, how about a precis for purposes of this thread??
What a neat thing to do. I am going to copy your idea next time I am in line at the grocery store or anyplace this could happen.
Thanks.
Thanks KrisA!
Mornin’, Ruth, pups
Margaret got a raise? Far out.
Haven’t read all the comments but how many of us guys still wear our hair long. I know oldnslow does, I seen pikshures.
I used to be totally embarrassed when my mother did that — and she was ALWAYS doing it.
Now I do it. LOL.
Hopefully. Thanks again.
Hey, Kris.
Here at the same time, are we? Great to see you. I saw you say that your wife was on tv the other day. Can you tell us the story of that?
I have a great story about inadvertently stepping into the middle of an academic feud at a dinner party by asking straightforward Q’s about Bloom’s just published Book of J. Too long to tell now; maybe I’ll email it to you later.
I’ve thought that a good M.A. in religion would be to read OT, NT, Quran, put a tick mark for each paragraph in one of 3 columns: violent, peaceful, neither. Then take each as a % of total number of paragraphs and discuss results. That would go some distance in avoiding the cherry-picking-to-prove-my-point phenomenon.
Speaking of the checkout line, I’m retired and I most always think about what it’s like to stand there all day putting up with the good and the annoying so I sometimes try to entertain the clerk a bit.
Clerk: “Did you find everything all right? Well, not everything, but I look for love in all the wrong places.
Glad you stopped in. Sorry, no sweet rolls. But then that always used to get into my hair at breakfast, quite a mess.
I deal with several stereotypes in various ways but my favorite, usually in response to surprise that I might not be stupid, is to say; “imagine, a high school drop out, machinist, hippie dirty biker capable of using polysyllabic words in complete sentences in order to express complex thoughts and ideas. What a shocking developement.” And then walk away.
Probably to get me into the vehicle faster and to quit embarrassing her. ha!
I look forward to that.
!
Wish I could watch that in action.
Some men look better with long hair. Oldnslow is certainly one of them. Though I’ve only ever seen his hair long, I can’t imagine it short.
Oh, if I had a nickel for every time in the past few years I’ve said out loud, I’m turning into my mother. Argh.
LMAO! Imagine my reaction!
Can’t. I am only 15 minutes in, so not enough to summarize. Except I gather he is going to make the case that there is no such thing as “free will.” Everything we do, say, decide, feel, etc. is caused by something out of our control.
Yup it is long, but I think will be worth setting aside the time to finish watching. Try watching the first 15 minutes or so, and if you agree, just come back to it later.
No doubt she’s proud of you. Imagine how embarrassed she’d be if you did the opposite and started complaining about the service or the like? I’ve been there when that went on, felt really sorry for those long-suffering kids.
Hi SD. Eight years is my record, but I have it whittled down to four now.
gotta run run folks…Arsenal game starting now!
He starts by describing a murderer, and makes the case that if he were that exact person with the same birth, upbringing, societal influences, genes, psychology, then he would also murder. He would have no choice.
I don’t know if I will believe it, but he is very persuasive so far.
The local news station for central Texas, YNN, was doing a piece on the Hutto (our town) School Board meeting coming up that night. They showed some footage of the previous meeting from February, and my wife was in the crowd. No biggie, it was actually just the back of her head and her shoulders.
Made me proud, though. A year ago she would tell me to shut up when I brought up politics. She would tell me I was crazy when suggesting the inner-workings, backroom deals, lobbyist money influence, etc.
Then she saw those young women in New York get pepper-sprayed last September, and something clicked. She’s now taking to government classes at the local college and mixing it up with all the conservatives who walk into class every day with their RushBo talking points. She’s getting involved in our city government in an activist capacity, pushing for taxes to offset the school budget shortfall rather than cuts and student fees.
I love it!
LMAO! Love it! I like it when I get called a liberal college elitest. Then I point out that I dropped out of high school six weeks into the tenth grade. The mental acrobatics that people perform in order to make that information suit their categorization of me is amusing to watch.
Thanks Ruth and everyone for the company and sharing. Chores were calling so I tried to drown out that noise for a little bit. A great day to everybody.
Hi.
Since it’s the weekend, and you might have a spare moment, I wanted to remind you of the name of the author some of us had lifted up to you. Tony Hillerman.
(I’ve been wanting to remind you all week. whew, that’s off my plate.)
I read the thread and it was ridiculous. In all my time here, I have never seen so much emo/ego commenting.
To be clear…I did attend college but it was twenty years after I dropped out of high school.
OK, I’m just getting into this late in the game. I’m a lawyer and (unfortunately) am not rich. I don’t wear suits to work but keep a couple in the office in case the need to look lawyerly arises. Unlike many in my profession, I’m not a know-it-all and think it’s important to just shut the fuck up, listen and ask questions. People have all kinds of expectations of lawyers. Many, I don’t meet. (I shaved the stringy goatee, though)
Nice.
So, you’re a tall drink of water, huh? I always think of you as the man on stilts. :)
FDL is insidious. I haven’t cut my hair since September but didn’t know why till now. I was over 30 during most of the sixties so wasn’t licensed for long hair.
as I think about it, I would say most expectations of lawyers I don’t meet.
I’ve seen it short! He looked good then, too.
Never could accept that, as I often step back and look at my own reactions and do a little nudging of myself into a better path. Free will is important to me, it produces better results.
Yep. It was astonishing to say the least. My objections to the man are based on observations and deeply held convictions but the reflexive hate that pours out of some keyboards as too much to take sometimes. It’s just as bad as any of the reflexive Bush support that was so ubiquitous a few years ago.
Glad to hear it. We all need to stay involved.
Okay, here’s another thing about name calling. It’s easy. No thought process necessary. No brain cells lost. No muss. No fuss.
Very scarey.
Thanks again Ruth for the very fine post.
Gotta go and get some “honey-do” projects finished.
Have a great weekend everyone!
Quietly celebrated the 5th anny of my last haircut earlier this month. Had always wanted to grow my hair but was busy being a corporate tool. Left that community through no choice of my own and vowed never again would I get a haircut every 3 to 4 weeks.
That sounds like a crock to me, JMO.
Sorry, but that doesn’t go with Ruth’s diary. Not all fundamentalists “hate” this or that. I’m not one, but I do remember a website of photos of folk who were very sorry Bush got elected and were saying so to the world. There was a woman in Utah holding up a sign that said she was a fundamentalist but she too was very sorry. Has stayed with me.
Very easy to fall into prejudicial opinions about people you don’t agree with.
Heh, we get those things monday through friday. I’m lookin’ for eggs benedict with Canadian bacon.
Well, yeah, I guess you’d be in a position to know that. He is a handsome man, just like cbl is a lovely woman.
Thanks for stopping in. Enjoy the day.
Melissa Harris Perry is on.
Just started and I missed one of the guests name, but she’s a professor of sociology at the University of New York. This should be interesting.
At my UU book thing we have been reading his book on science and morals. It’s great fun, stimulates much.
It helps reinforce your own, perhaps not well thought out, opinions about the world in general, so statements such as that certain discussions are ‘bad’ sound correct.
Not sure you were around when I described a male bicycle rider I saw last week. NOT wearing a helmet, which was bad. Long white hair pulled straight back into a fairly fat pony tail (not a braid, I don’t think) that reached over his back to his butt. I wonder how long it had been growing?
I tried to run for city council. They shot me down, I haven’t lived here long enough :(
Next year, though. Next year.
For now, we’ll satisfy ourselves with drumming up public support for the tax initiative to offset the school budget shortfalls. We’re looking at $1.5 million, which can be completely wiped out by a $14/month property tax increase. Since there is no income tax here in Tejas, it’s got to come through property or sales, which sucks. I’m kicking around the idea of pushing the city council to pass a sales tax increase. We have a Walmart, a Lowes, and a Home Depot here, as well as a major car dealership. A minimal sales tax increase (like, .15 cents on the dollar) would raise a lot of money.
My favorite judge wore boots under the robe, too. Dressing lawyer style always makes me suspect that the attorney feels inadequate and wants to make up for it.
I’m very happy for you. And, what a great role model for your girls. Neat.
“Then she saw those young women in New York get pepper-sprayed last September, and something clicked. ”
Yes yes yes, clicking going on. Bring on the pepper spray!
To a lot of us here you’re just the one and only BFL.
Oh, you are a fellow UU? That’s cool.
I was very active in the UU church in the Detroit area, one of the “large” congregations (more than 650 people), sang in the choir, was on their board. In Cincinnati somewhat less active, because it was farther from my house so I didn’t go during the week for activities as often. Here in South Bend, a tiny congregation with no choir and not too many social activism things (always an attraction with UUs). So I don’t belong to the church here. I miss it sometimes. It was always intellectually and ethically stimulating.
That didn’t take long. I didn’t say anything of the sort. I’m not going to begin and end each comment with disclaimers about how I’m not including everybody in my comment or that it isn’t a blanket condemnation. Clearly I was referring to those particular fundies that Ruth brought up in her comment @ 62. I’m not going to play this game ever again. If I can’t make a comment without somebody deliberately misinterpreting it, then I’m wasting my time.
Well, I think you have to watch/listen to the case he makes before making up your mind. As I said, I am only 15 minutes into a video that’s more than an hour long, so I am reserving judgment until I see the whole thing.
Thanks for coming by, good day. And checks off that list.
I see more clicking around Trayvon Martin’s death. We keep having these moments, Scott Olsen, the young women in New York, the Brooklyn Bridge, the evictions…
People are starting to see more and more injustice in the world. People are starting to pick up the banner with us. I’m hoping it continues to spread.
The strike in Spain this week made my heart happy. Not the violence and destruction, but the act of the populous pushing back.
part of me agrees with that–much of me. but there are times when it’s necessary to wear the costume. which is an OK change of pace.
great post, ruth!
i tried the reccommend button, but my dumb “smart” phone wouldn’t do it. did note that “flag this,” and “next commenter’s name” and “reply” are all together: wonder if pushing the wriong one leads to misunderstandings — i.e. can you tell if you’ve flagged in error and correct it?
my dad told an interesting ww2 anecdote: he assigned a sailor to clean bilges for 2 weeks and the guy did a terriffic job. superior work. dad assigned another guy to take over the rotation; from then on guy #1 acted as grumy and unhappy as he could be. finally my dad called him out on his lousey attitude and asked why. the guy thought he’d been taken off the job because dad wasn’t satisfied with his work! dad had to explain that cleaning bilges is a job nobody wants and that’s why its rotated.
as in many cases, “what we have here is a failure to communicate.”
good. Much prefer it to Beerfart Liberal, Esq.
Have been doing a poor job of keeping up this morning so I am out. Great post Ruth. Thank you. Have a super day all.
Whoa! Looked out the window and all I can see beyond the driveway is white. I haven’t seen fog this think in years. Glad I don’t have anywhere to go!
Being a part of a fundamentalist group though, often means joining a mindset. My mother lost her mind and turned into a Pat Robertson supporter at the same time, so I speak from some experience. I think Margaret is talking about a particular line of talk/thought in that observation, not generally.
If you’re talking about the one I think you are, it was awful. I have a somewhat more negative view of some of those who participated than I did previously, and I thoroughly reject the characterizations.
With hash browns, of course.
Laters. Hug the lovely cbl for me!
My wife was asked a very interesting question in class the other day, and I’d like to pose it here.
If you were elected President of the United States, what 3 main issues or problems would you attempt to correct while in office?
My answers were living wages, LGBT rights, and universal health care.
What do you all think?
I’ve cut my hair once since I got out of the Navy in 75 but couldn’t pinpoint when it was if my life depended upon it.
Charlotte’s got a game at 11 if you want to swing by. It’s at the elementary school behind Fritz Park.
As I said before, do watch the video. I don’t know yet if I buy it, but I am willing to listen and see where he goes with it. 15 minutes (some of which was his being introduced) isn’t enough to judge.
Those would be mine too, with one proviso: An overarching respect for human rights, (including the ability to live without fear of being slaughtered by an American or an American drone).
Hey, we all read what you said, it’s just sometimes things don’t get understood. Stick with us, please.
Good on you and the Mrs. It’s people like you two who are going to be a vanguard for real change in the world.
I like that! It’s tough when you can only pick three.
Thanks. Love it that cleaning bilges worked for one sailor anyway.
Thanks SouthernDragon. I can only hope so.
But that is like saying if your parents are gay, you shall be also.
If you come from a long line of ax murderers, it’s in your blood.
I have to disagree.
I’m not going anywhere. Even if I take a break sometimes, I’m always coming back. :)
Good choices. I would also like to impeach a few Supreme Court Justices who are violating the constitution by reversing laws that were made by the appropriate body, the legislature.
So….all we really know is that you got a haircut in the last forty years or so? ;)
A penny will work. That’s how we pay for some things in Pinellas County, voters vote for a penny increase in sales tax. Makes a snappy slogan too, – “Penny for [insert cause here].”
Thanks for this link. It is a testimony to the stereotypes of religion that this was framed as an argument against religion. It was a profoundly religious (the current euphemism is “spiritual”) talk from a thoroughly secular thinker. It was argued primarily against the current understandings of two theistic religions.
And it hit over against the radical immorality for what currently passes as “religious”, most likely represented on this panel by Dinesh d’Souza (if I accurately read his references to “Dinesh”).
My thought at some points was that he was channeling a bit of John Calvin (without the stereotypes of Calvinism).
Gets back to my comment way upthread about the perils of the typed word without tone of voice or facial expression, or as Demi mentioned, words being misinterpreted because there’s no immediate way to elaborate and follow up.
I think we all need to pay more attention to that, me included.
Was it between wars? Or for a job?
No, I don’t think that is what he is saying at all. But let me repeat, watch it yourself. I’ve seen 15 minutes of it and heard the premise he’s making without a lot of elaboration, and may not have even explained it well.
To thine own self be true.
Never give up.
Breathe.
I actually just ran the math, and on a $.01 increase in sales tax, we’d generate about $1.8 a year. Just from the four major retailers I mentioned above. That’s not counting all the other taxable sales in the city.
Harrumph to those fucks. Activism in the judiciary really rubs my Constitution bone the wrong way.
The attributes easiest to perceive. Yep.
universal healthcare; campaign finance; and tax the rich!!!! well, the last one would be something, anything about income inequality–pcould be living wages, tax fairness anything
Much foggy here too. So much so that the ground is all wet.
(You just zap yourself here to my house. I’ve got firewood…I’ve got some leftover champagne. I’ve got music.)
You are loved and appreciated by so many here. Please know that.
For you -
I saw a pic on facebook the other day of the Pope. Apparently he spoke about Marxism while in Cuba recently. Pic of the Pope was captioned:
Yep. ROFL I think it was the next day that I said to meself, self, that’s the last time you do that stupid shit.
Progressive taxation on the regressive items like tolls, the gas tax, the sales tax. That’d be somethin’!
Wild hair up my ass iirc.
I would list a jobs program (maybe like the WPA) that also rebuilds infrastructure, universal health care, and LGBT rights.
As Charlie Pierce puts it (as the “theme” of his blog), “Fk the deficit. People got no jobs. People got no money.
I sent Rocky Anderson a contribution, and got a letter and bumper sticker in the mail yesterday. Not sure yet, but I like what I hear/read.
It also gets to the same stereotypes that Ruth posted about. Some people have this idea about who I am and what I believe and, right or wrong, they see everything through that lens. My favorite is “liberal college elitest”, when I have done more physical labor, I mean backbreaking, swamping in the mud work than many people here. I dropped out of HS in 1976, worked in printing until 1978, then worked in horizontal water boring until 1985, starting out as a laborer and then a helper and then a machine operator. Then I served in the Navy as an airframe tech for a bit over five years. In 1991 it was back to water boring with some college in the part time. Then I was a diesel mechanic from 1998 until 2007 when I earned a degree and went into science researching cancer. Now I’m back in printing after being laid off in 2009. That’s the truth whether anybody believes it or not.
707!!! Thanks for that. I’m gonna go find that. That’s rich. LOL
Nice. I would have liked to see… “and lives luxuriously off Tithes enforced by Excommunicative Powers.”
OK, friends, gotta get off this machine and on to my Saturday errands.
Wonderful thread this morning. Thanks, Ruth, for kicking it off so well (although as usual we promptly wandered off topic).
As my long-deceased uncle used to say, “Gotta get walkin’ and talkin’”
Have a great weekend.
That’s a history to be proud of. Period.
We’re friends on FB. Kris Andrews. Check my recent activity.
I gotta get going too. Thanks everybody!
That’s a very special version of ‘whatever it takes’, and I have to say that believing what anyone tells us on the internet usually is because of a background in seeing how they’ve been expressing themselves for awhile. We know you, so we know you’re not pulling our chains.
Here is a great anthem concerning the decision not to cut your hair.
Dunno about proud but I did what I had to do. I don’t have the patience to interact with the public. That much is true!
Bingo. Aw, man, too much.
Juliania,
I’m glad to here that some fundamentalists some where were sorry that Bush was elected. That’s good sharing.
Saying that Margaret’s comment doesn’t go with Ruth’s diary just seems a bit aggressive, or inflamatory.
We’re not trying to draw lines in the sand here. I hope you understand that a few of us were so upset by things that were said and done here recently that we had to take some time off before we trusted ourselves to come and share again.
So, I’m just trying to explain myself.
Wonderful comment, Margaret, at least to me, since it led to mindgames about feeling special vs. feeling right. These are different, since you could well be feeling right (correct) about your statement about not being special. Yet, I could oppose your statement (and do) since I think science also shows that there is a specialness about the world’s balance of chemical constructions that seems orchestrated for and not against life, that this tiny cell in a gigantic universe seems to keep adjusting itself, as long as we don’t mess with it beyond a certain limit (and we’re getting there) in order to let life be. When did life begin? When one little organism did this in a sea of other chemically organized floating spheres, just the way the universe is. That one little organism got chosen to do this, in my opinion, so it is special. And the ancients, putting the world at the center, thus were not completely wrong.
I don’t think that sorting out truths needs to be a challenge so long as we recognize as did Plato that every fondly held truth is but an opinion surrounded by a protective layer of prejudicial calcite. It’s prejudicial to live well while others do not and to take things for granted as others cannot do, but it’s a natural tendency of life. Which can’t exist without some sort of protective shell. That shell can be on the outside and visible, or it can be buried within, like a skeleton.
Push does come to shove in times like these because choices more and more have to be made as to ‘which side are you on’ as the song goes. Happened when the colonists decided if they were pro-royal or anti, and it is for sure happening now. Its painful, but inevitable, especially when the threatened prejudices have been held for a lifetime. Ask yourselves, are there subjects you do not want to hear discussed on this forum? And then ask yourself, yourself, why that is.
I have prejudices about subjects relating to female inward parts, to the ‘right’ to an abortion, to same sex marriage, to marijuana use, faith vs. nonfaith. That’s my skeleton in the closet, the things internal to me that resist change. They help make me me. I recognize that others are built differently, in arguing such matters who I think I am comes under seige – though in a less charged atmosphere, I defend my skeletal structure somewhat. Vive la difference in these matters as wind strengthens a sapling – and I will smile at everyone no matter what.
Excellent subject, Ruth.
Thanks, glad you could come for a visit. Good day to you.
Always been my anthem.
Alright pups, I’m out. Gotta help the little one get ready for softball.
Have a great weekend. Thanks again to Rush for the post, and for tolerating me bringing politics into PUAC!
Freudian slip? Rush…politics. LOL
Margaret, You show yourself like few others do. That’s high up in my values and also tends to clear a path for others.(‘others’ includes me) Granted that’s risky on a printed page as others have said….but well worth it imo.
And your cosmology rules.
Thanks, and of course always glad to hear your thoughts.
May I mention that ‘right’ to an abortion seems a strange construct, as its a medical procedure, and I’m sure you don’t think in terms of a ‘right’ to removing a gangrenous limb or giving resuscitation.
*snort*
no relation.
Excellent point. Talking about the “right” to terminate a pregnancy is synonymous with discussing the “right” to good health care. Just like gay rights being axiomatically human rights. Never cede the framing.
Me too but the bumper sticker is tiny and doesn’t say anything. Now I am excited about jill forgot her last name running for the green nomination. Gonna send her a few dollars too. I mean I am really impressed by her. Rocky can really talk and Jill can really talk. Only scary thing is that we have already tried the smart talker. But I think these two are the real thing.
Yep, I’d rather look like Neil Young than Dick Nixon, So I do.
x2
Thanks again, Ruth, for this opportunity to talk and reflect and generally sort out some of our feelings.
I would like to suggest one more thing. If there are a number of individuals here who think similary, or communicate similarly, that Does Not mean that there is any kind of conspriracy.
And, the last thing I’m going to say is…
Bgawk!
I don’t think you are correct about the ‘trying to poke holes’ Ruth. It’s clear that older members of the community feel very defensive and threatened when that is not the intention.
The times they are a-changing, really.
Morning, all! Finally got to the bottom and a reply box…my intertoobz are incredibly slow this a.m.
Can’t believe I’m up. Apparently adjusting to a work schedule – waking up before the alarm, falling asleep around ten-ish (yesterday tho’ I took a long nap so didn’t crash til midnight). No trouble falling asleep or staying asleep anymore…I’m pooped!
My toobz being so slow I haven’t read all the comments…and now have forgotten the ones I wanted to respond to. Sigh.
Will actually be going to work for awhile today; it’s moving day, and tho’ I’ve been told I don’t have to take part, it seems good to show some solidarity, willingness to get dirty. Thought I’d take some muffins or something when I go. Gotta go get a Rx and allergy meds, first, though.
Actually was up in time to see Chris Hayes’s “Up” (and remember it; usually fall asleep if I make it up, lol), and now Melissa Harris-Perry’s all female panel show. Talking about Shirley Chisholm now…a woman I really admired and who died too young.
Jill Stein
What are your confessions? Anyway you get someone else’s ideas imposed on you of what you ought to be, but aren’t?
Hi all, lovely topic.
Bein of female persuasion and petite stature….I wasn’t always aware of the “other’s” ideas imposed on me, but life is interesting when trying to break through to the people behind the cover. I join in at work with a small group of smokers (destined to the ‘outback’) and our small talk can be quite revealing of what’s on the inside of the people I presume to “be” a certain way.
Thanks, a blindness seems indicated in the view of a right to prosecute me for a miscarriage as well.
Sorry if your intentions were not as they appeared to others. Perhaps expressing them in agreeable terms might help.
If you want to have a useful discussion, I think a diagnosis like ‘some older members are feeling defensive’, is not an encouraging start.
Well that’s about as direct as it gets.
Glad you got a chance to visit, and yes, the weekend mornings are really upgraded a lot now at msnbc, a treat for the thinking person.
Interestingly, joining in for an off the premises chat would improve the work place for most of us. Thanks for your visit here, too.
There’s an old adage that goes something like
“he who knows not and knows not that he knows not…”
I will just say that taking a course on the Bible is like analyzing a joke to see what makes it funny.
So many comments on the subject are really (sorry if I offend) extremely shallow. You really have to be IN any faith (any faith) using the material as it is meant to be used – and in the west it is only now that eastern Christian practices relating to the Bible as a liturgical document are able to be experienced. For centuries Westerners have gone away from that, apart from devoted individuals like the ‘fundy’ I talked about, who get the spirit of the faith.
The Bible is one of those magnificent texts that is easily attacked in fragments, much as one could attack a waterlily painting by Monet simply by standing close enough to see all those ugly random splotches. Step into the focal point and you see the wonderful reflections, the life.
Ah, what you are missing, you who do not see!
Many of us have acknowledged the challenges of words only interaction here. But, we can use our words in a more or less affective fashion.
Telling someone they are incorrect or wrong is just a nicer way of saying You are full of shit.
Saying, well, I see it differently. I see it this way and for xyz reasons is a much easier way to provoke a dialogue instead of provoking hurt feelings or defensiveness.
Sounds amazingly like “sorry if I offended you.”
No kidding. Right now, Mona El-taHawy (sp) an Egyptian=American reporter whom I’ve been followng on twitter the last year for her reporting on the ground in Egypt and elsewhere in the Arab Spring. She’s very sharp, and brings a different perspective, something I’m always lookking for (and is on-topic here!)
Frances Fox Piven, too! One of two “older” women on this show, (and one who remembers Shirley Chisholm personally). It’s good to see a range of ages, too.
Reading gives a different impression, indeed, as the words of the NT were about love and forgiveness, not about unquestioning immersion.
When it gets that long, it’s probably time for a trim.
Religious conservatives have a lot of conviction. The state of being utterly convinced of your own view makes it extremely difficult to communicate with those of other views. I think the best way, if you want to spend the time, of talking with the conservative religious to ask them, and be seriously interested, about their (what is it that Paul had on the way to tarsus) Your own point of view will not be of interest to them except to find fault with it.
I hear you loud and clear. Me, I’d rather discover the issues that we share a common beliefe about. Not, spending time searching for faults to call out.
‘what is it that Paul had on the way to tarsus’
He was struck blind, which always has seemed to me quite a peculiar enlightenment.
And your approach produces positive reactions. Always a plus.
Now I really must get a few things done offline, and thanks to you all for contributing to this great discussion. I’ll check back by later, have a good day, everyone.
However he was struck, coming up with Neither gentile nor jew, not man nor woman, nor slave nor free…was a pretty cool thing.
Don’t believe that. There is no point to even having a discussion if there is no free will. Doesn’t make sense. It’s the old ‘nature vs. nurture’ argument. Fortunately, we are not predetermined robots; we actually change our minds when circumstances or arguments present to our remarkable flexibility. It is we ourselves who make the decision, and we who are ultimately responsible for our attitude toward others, no matter how they may offend us. We are diminished or enhanced by our attitude towards others, even the ones who seem most offensive on here. In fact, those challenges to our thoughts are what we really need in this challenging time.
Wake up, fdl founders. You have a heritage to be sure and that cannot be challenged; it is your traditional bond. But you live in a world where huge changes have to be affected by people making sacrifice. It’s not a time for the old ways unless the old ways contribute to the new. And the time to do that is shortening.
but women needn’t apply for any position of authority. Seems a bit lacking, to my mind.
All I’ve said above does not preclude the possibility that I am full of shit about some things.
Take care all. Smile or not. It’s your choice. :)
Well, there’s that too. Sorry.
Bye.
Hah- Southern Dragon reminded me of one thing – one haircut since 1975? Wow. How long is your hair? If I’d done that (as I was tempted to do, just let it grow, sometimes,’cause I have always been uncomfortable in the “beauty salon.”), it’d be dragging along the ground. Only takes about five years for mine to reach my waist, so I do get it cut from time to time.
Speaking of matching stereotypes, such as what does a lawyer look like, that was a common discussion in the legal aid programs I worked in (it was the ’70′s, still, and early ’80′s, after all). Some felt that, as our clients were poor by definition, we should dress more like they did, not in fancy suits. Others felt that poor people, just as much as richer people, have an expectation of what a lawyer should look like, and it does them no favors to eschew that look.
I tend to favor the second view, based in large part on experience.
There was the time, after I had graduated and been licensed, while interviewing a prospective client in a satellite office where we borrowed space, and so my diploma and license were not on the wall.
After I explained that my legal analysis of her complaints was that she had little chance of success in court, she asked me, “Do you think I should go see a real lawyer?”
Sigh. So, yeah, I’m doing my best to “dress like a lawyer.” Which also means it’s time for another haircut now. Sigh.
epiphamy can’t remember it can’t spell it. Same with “gratuitous” for years but I have it now. Sometimes I feel gratuitous. The religious will usually like the opportunity to tell of their epiphamy It may have (literally)been a matter of life and death for them, which tells you why they are not interested in second guessing it, and takes away, for me anyway, some of the worry (anger?) about the possibility of our country moving toward theocracy.
“epiphany” “n” in place of “m”
But…I’m not sure that’s the right word…I think in my church we always called it his “conversion.”
However, the last thing I need to do right now is get into a religious or theological discussion..got too many off-line things to do, too.
Just can’t resist a word discussion, if I can help.
Oh, and Peggy if you’re still here…congrats on the raise! I agree with msmolly (?was it?) who said 8% is a terrific raise these days. I know you deserve it, and more.
And now, I’m off to those Saturday things that Rx and bank and etc.
Thanks for the spell check. Me going too, finally. Got things need doing.
I don’t get the ends trimmed so it’s at the bottom of my shoulder blades. I really should have about an inch taken off so it’ll grow. Now that it’s all white/silver I should take it down to my waist.
Margaret, Ruth didn’t refer to particular fundies but to “the fundies”. I was on topic and following the conversation for the diary to contribute, making a point on the conversation, not a personal attack. That’s what we do here, don’t we? To engage and learn? I have no idea what your personal prejudices are. (I gave some of mine.)
What I see in a comment is what I respond to – how else can it be? There is no way a poster can know your personal attitudes so those of us who don’t meet in person or have not exhaustively followed the lives of the good folk here which are exemplary in ways we don’t know (and no doubt we are lesser beings, no doubt – I know I am!) – no way we can add to the site and grow it, if we are shunned (as has been suggested here) and categorized as offensive when trying to broaden the conversation.
I tried to express that there are sides to everyone, and really the comments here are usually better expressed than even folk who would have been dismissed as trolls elsewhere – the moderators see to that, but we NEED that variety of passion, yours as well! Otherwise we fall into the danger of becoming selfsatisfied, and that’s a poor substitute for ongoing discovery.
Sorry to have sounded that way but that is the drawback of these public chatrooms, thank you demi for explaining. I was simply taking up the theme Ruth had put forward, and I guess I have expanded it much more than I was entitled to. Apologies for that, and no offence meant; I just could see the danger in saying that others stereotype without addressing the stereotypes we all fall into, myself included, as being the real problem. That was my own interpretation, again my apologies. As Paul says…sinners, of whom I am the first.
(Recognizing now that this is a special place for special people – as I think is perfectly fine too. Narrows it down a bit, though, don’t you think? Just my two cents and as I think I have said much to much, apologies for all of that intruding on your enjoyments here.)
I think you both misunderstood me there – that was my way of categorizing the side of a commonly presented debate, not my acceptance of the term, which was why I put it in quotation marks. I was presenting my own stereotypical capsulization of a concept that has many expanded avenues of understanding pro and con, and I agree with you that the negative aspects are offputting.
It may be lacking to a 21st Century mind, but in 1 CE seems more than normal….Doesn’t make it “right”, but there is a context.
Recognizing now that this is a special place for special people – as I think is perfectly fine too. Narrows it down a bit, though, don’t you think? Just my two cents and as I think I have said much to much, apologies for all of that intruding on your enjoyments here.)
I’m sorry, juliania. I’m having a real hard time understanding what that means. Do you see the commenters on this thread as self-identified as Special, and that we limit who comes to share?
Just to say…In a way…as long as they’re not from the laundramat, it seems…There may be others.
I apologized for the laundramat comment.
Boyoboy it seems the “difficulties” from the past week have crept in here, too. I am so sorry to see that.
To add: it really bothered me this past week that some who have been around here for awhile and have formed (virtual) personal friendships were attacked for that. It became an “I’ve been here longer than you have” one-upmanship, to the point where one long-time commenter whom I won’t name changed his screen name to reflect his tenure.
There was, of course, the us (good guys) vs. them (bad guys, labeled with a derogatory term) thread. Lots of dead horses were beaten. Lots of grudges trotted out for another going over. Lots of defensiveness, lots of barely suppressed resentment.
It did, and still does, make me very sad. It is not what I’ve come to value here at FDL, and I sure hope it stops. Soon.
I don’t get it. What gives?
And, you just feel free to believe whatever you want.
(Even after you said you were waiting for finish the viewing before coming to any conclusions.)
In the Eastern Church, Paul’s epistles are considered secondary to the Gospels, more like sermons, so a bit more questionable especially in the aspects people currently find more contextual. And in the Gospels there is no question that women are prominently persons of authority, though that too gets called into question by the mores of the times.
For example, the fact that Jesus is having a long conversation with a woman at Jacob’s well is called into question by his returning disciples. And a woman of some questionable repute, to boot. Yet it is the longest important conversation he has with anyone. And the beginning of Luke’s Gospel points out a new turn of events with the story of the priest being struck dumb followed closely by Mary’s parallel intelligent conversation with Gabriel – she trumps him in no uncertain telling of it. Puts priests in their appropriate humble place, to my way of thinking :)
Also in John, the important first miracle is only accomplished after the testing conversation -”Woman, what is it to do with you and me?” followed by “Do what he tells you” from Mary. Countless other examples, ending with the women being the first to tell of the empty tomb to disciples not believing them because they were women.
Plus, in the early time there were indeed women deacons, though that practice didn’t last for long, context of the times.
I’d say, though, that the clincher of authority would be Mary accepting and becoming what in my church is called “the abode of heaven.” Hard to trump that.
The best comment about truth comes from an eastern sage who said “You cannot know Truth. You can only point to it”.
I don’t remember who.
I listened to a bit more while “putting my face on” getting ready to go out on errands. I am maybe 1/2 hour into it now. Still haven’t decided, because I don’t think he’s gotten to the point yet. It’s pretty complicated.
I have come down with a cold, not too bad, but I feel punky. I am going to just lie low today, read, rest, etc. And eat Cold-eeze.
To think that I’ve lived to be proslytised to on PUAC…
Were you happy with the results from the hair salon?
You’ve got me interested in this guys’s video. Maybe I’ll give it a listen.
Read, rest and zinc. Sounds good. Sounds like me for the past while. Hope you feel better sooner…and will talk to you later.
S’unbelievable, ain’t it?
Peggy!!!
Definitely a first for me! Love you kiddo. :)
Is church over?
/Shuffles bingo cards.
OK, you lost me. Hair salon?
Wrong church, spud. LOL ;-)
Juliania,
I see you have been studying the role of women in early christianity. You may be interested in a recent book by a professor of biblical studies at Rice U. You both cite evidence for your comments.
“Confronting Holy Misogyny”
April D. DeConick
Jello salads to be served in the multi-use room. :)
Lime, with pineapple and marshmallows.
“One of these days, alice….pow…”
Oh, wait..”jello day in the nursing home”, was from a previous thread.
Exactly.
Big Grin. I know, I ask for it sometimes.
Congratulations! (((hug)))
Alice: aaaa…shaddup..
Alice never flinches. There’s dozens of ‘one of these days’ bits on this youtube clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbCv6b96OK0&feature=endscreen
I might watch Teevee again if there was Jackie and Audry.
Sorry, gave you a bad title, correct title is.
Holy Misogyny: Why the Sex and Gender Conflicts in the Early Church Still Matter
April Fools Eve seems appropriate for a return of religious politics that favor use of the church to drive a stake into principles that favor public interest.
All wise sages say that … the fakers believe otherwise.
{{{ Happy Birthday, Demi }}}
Congrats Peg !
Hugs to all of you …
Yep … nothing like religion and Monarchs to prolong slavery !
The saying continues … I’m pointing to the Moon, don’t stare at my Finger …
Back on the grid after watching Arsenal lose to a team facing relegation & making dinner for my boys and their friends.
msmolly:
Thinking about it, does it make sense to listen for 1hour plus, to someone who is already convinced that there is no ‘free will’; has someone actually paid this guy for the dubious pleasure of doubly proving his point (forcing you to listen & paying hinm to force you to listen) that he was able to get someone to listen to him for 1 hour plus? Ouch! I think I will exercise my free will and pass!
Oh, Petro!
How wonderful to see you here.
Poifect Timing, axuly.
I’m just now starting a big family project … the belated painting of the back room, so that we can move the mister’s office to its proper place and even better status.
I’m the gofer. I cook. I put little things in piles of WTF is this back to where they belong.
Starting a pot of vegetable/bean chili now.
I DO so miss seeing and talking to you, but I understand that we are all in varying stages and places & well you know very well how that offers one an opportunity to focus differently.
Cheers.
msmolly,
I think this Harris character is a scammer – from your short blurb, he’s convinced himself, in effect, that he is the only one capable of exercising free will, and failing that, the availability of some suckers’ funds, via speaking fees, has caused him not to exercise his free will (preventing him from being a grifter)!
I am with Ruth on asserting my free will at all times, otherwise I would have given up on life already.
“Don’t believe that. There is no point to even having a discussion if there is no free will. Doesn’t make sense…”
Exactly! from the 1 minute I saw in the video, the audience proved the guy’s point by being captured for 1 hour plus, listening to him tell them that they had no choice…pity the fools who had to pay for the ‘privilege’.
Guess everyone has signed off this topic already…presumptious of me to expect everything to stand still for me after a 6-hour hiatus.
Bye folks…pushing my chair back under the table!
Pull Up A Chair has long been a place of quiet understanding and sharing. There are no rules printed anywhere. We have continued a beautiful place here, honoring the person who started this, Christy Hardin Smith. Many people work together to continue a Saturday morning dialogue about health, human rights, personal experience and how that adds to our vision of not only The Now, but The Future.
This is not the place to call people out. For digging under rocks to find a sin; to tell other people what to think.
I ask everyone to honor the soul of this PUAC place that so many cherish.
Thank you so much.
Hear ! Hear !
{{{ CHS }}} {{{ Ruth }}}
Thanks so much. Full order of love and forgiveness, pls.
It is up to you. I wasn’t convinced, but Sam Harris is not a scammer, whatever else you may think of him. And he isn’t using “free will” the same way most of us do.
I did watch the whole thing, though, and he makes a good case for his point of view.
Ya know, this bothers me. I am not angry, my feelings aren’t hurt. I hold no brief for Sam Harris, he isn’t a friend or a relative. It’s a video someone posted here at FDL earlier in the week that I thought looked interesting.
But a couple of you decided, based on my admittedly sketchy description of the talk, with my up-front caveat that I had not watched the whole thing, and without watching it yourself, that Sam Harris is a scammer, a grifter, and plain wrong in his view. Except that you don’t know what his view IS.
Is this critical thinking, folks? C’mon, we can do better than that.
Well said.
“Pull Up A Chair has long been a place of quiet understanding and sharing. There are no rules printed anywhere. We have continued a beautiful place here, honoring the person who started this, Christy Hardin Smith. Many people work together to continue a Saturday morning dialogue about health, human rights, personal experience and how that adds to our vision of not only The Now, but The Future.
This is not the place to call people out. For digging under rocks to find a sin; to tell other people what to think.
I ask everyone to honor the soul of this PUAC place that so many cherish.”
Point taken, demi. My comments on this subject were not as you describe. I was polite and respectful but did not receive politenessin return as I simply followed on the comments which were being made. I meant no disrespect calling folk old – I am old myself. If you look at what I remarked about tradition there is nothing snide in that except for the comments which came after, nor was I prosletyzing since my comment was merely to supplement what the Revbev was saying about cultural habits vs. what is taught in the Bible.
I understand this goes against what many folk currently hold, and I have spirited arguments with my friends in the little town where I live on the same subjects. Far be it from me to prosletyze (I don’t even know how to spell it :) ) since I have atheists, Buddhists, agnostics among my own dear children whom I love.
Thank you all for putting up with me. I will not post again on this site, though I will selectively continue to read for the wonderful information on many topics that you all with very hard work provide.