With the support and encouragement of the Republican leadership, one of America’s most despicable political thugs, Dick Armey, a corporate lobbyist funded by the "health" industry, is organizing mobs to disrupt, harass and intimidate every public event organized to discuss the health care reform effort.
It’s not just Dick Armey. The entire Republican leadership has been fanning the flames with persistent lies claiming the Democrats want to force euthanasia on old people, abortions on the unwilling and have Obamacrats tell your doctor how or whether to treat you. We’ve seen months of pernicious lies, and they’re having the predictable effect in scaring the elderly and inciting the gullible to vent their anger at anyone they can associate with Obama or health reform.
But instead of condemning such reprehensible behavior, the media writes absurd stories about the resurgence of the party, it’s prospects for 2010-12 and who the next leader will be. But we already know: the leaders of the Republican Party are liars who think it’s fine to organize thugs to disrupt town halls and stifle discussion.
Armey’s Republican endorsed effort is profoundly anti-democratic. It is nothing less than an assault on the country’s ability to talk about public issues. It seeks to prevent public officials from speaking to or hearing from affected citizens.
The organizers and their corporate sponsors are not interested in public dialogue or debate. Their purpose is to intimidate and threaten reform proponents, to silence them and prevent their views being heard.
The First Amendment protects even the most objectionable speech. Even speech whose content you hate. But this will quickly move beyond speech. It is sheer thuggery, driven by anger and induced by lies. And because the Republicans are inciting the most gullible and desperately fearful, it will get worse unless the Party’s leaders, organizers and their corporate sponsors are shamed into stepping back from the abyss.
The restraints that separate where we are from organized violence are always fragile, based as much on a commonly shared sense of fairness as on civil enforcement. That shared notion has been severely damaged in recent years. Once it’s gone, it’s a small step for angry people to cross the line from vigorous, constitutionally protected demonstrations to illegal and violent behavior.
What we’re seeing now is barely one step short of angry brown shirt mobs physically threatening and beating people. Can anyone draw a credible moral distinction between the inciters then and those now?
This is the next step in a series of dangerous moments, and not just for health reform. Every policy issue can be recast as a potential battlefield, because the instigators are telling their pitiful followers the big lie that their way of life, and even their lives are threatened; they’re being told their nation is being stolen.
If the media do not recognize the danger and condemn what’s happening in the strongest possible terms, it will get worse. As much as anyone, it is in their interest to reassert the shared interest in fair debate. They should refuse to give the goons, their apologists and funders a forum to stoke violence and not allow themselves to be used to condone or encourage such mob behavior.
We have approached this cliff several times in the last year, and each time it has been stirred up by the same extreme radical wing of the conservative movement. That movement no longer understands or accepts democratic principles or consequences. And each time it becomes more angry and more likely to devolve into violence. The only change is the source of corporate funding, depending on which interests are willing to manipulate the mob.
Tuesday a.m. update: dKos diary on how another event was handled well.
More reactions from:
Digby, behind the parties
ThinkProgress, Durbin responds to tactics; Angry right harrasses Doggett
KathyinBlackburg, Blue Commonwealth, For Dick Armey, when all else fails, hire a mob
Mahablog, Astroturf mods disrupt town hall meetings
Brian Beutler/TPM, Inside the Anti-health reform organizing campaign
Glenn Smith/FDL, Background on Rick Scott



94 Comments




Scarecrow, Excellent piece. I think plutocracy is emerging even more clearly now, and the plutocrats are attempting to circumvent Democracy, by funding thuggery to destroy debate and open society, just as the rich in Germany funded right-wing extremist parties, including, eventually, the Nazis. The plutocrats thought they could use Hitler, but, in the end he used them.
And these are the people Obama was so concerned about working with? Bipartisanship my ass! Today’s brownshirts are clad in plaid and polyester. Obama and the Dems have once again underestimated the real enemy and have been outflanked. The American people will suffer once again.
Want campaign finance reform???????????? New bill introduced. Whip it!
”Last Thursday, the House Administration Committee held a major hearing on the ”Fair Elections Now Act.”
This is our bill. In a packed hearing room, for the first time in decades, Congress considered real campaign finance reform. Under this bill, qualifying candidates would get a chunk of funding for their campaign and then would be free to raise more in contributions of $100 or less per citizen. These donations would then be matched four-fold by a central fund.
If passed, this would be a game changer — replacing our system of special-interest-funded elections with citizen-funded elections.”
http://change-congress.org/vie…..on_hearing
UNMASK THE MOBS FOR HIRE!!!!!,,,,wheres the loan ranger when ya need him
well we have Rachel and KO….OUR rangers of truth
Will the left engage in reasonably large numbers?
My prediction is, not yet.
we need powerful advertising responses to this mob mentality
How long before rivers of blood flow down the streets. A house this divided cannot stand.
This is a conspiracy to disturb the peace.
I suggest people call the FBI about this organized disorderly conduct at government sponsored town halls. The more people who call the FBI, they will have to do something about Freedumbworks and Americans for Prosperity(?) who have coordinated this thuggery around the country to shut down Democratic town halls.
To get health care sign these petitions.
http://bit.ly/HR676
http://bit.ly/single_payer_ross
See our blog http://blog.democratz.org
What would Gandhi do? Boycott contributors to conservative Republicans and Democrats.
The mobs aren’t really about health care or even politics, IMO. This is about racism, hate, rage and frustration. Obama, and any bill he supports, is the obvious target for these people to vent about. This is about people who are fairly low in education, income and opportunity. They are angry because an AA man got ahead of them and did something that they can never aspire to in their tired and sad lives. Their rage is dangerous and if these mobs continue, someone will get hurt – most likely NOT one of the mob. Then we have real trouble.
Health care reform will pass with the end of pre-existing condition exclusions and the end of insurance company’s right to drop someone who pays their premium. That’s good enough for me and most Americans.
The far-left will never understand the soul of America; free enterprise, independence and minimal government control. I am a pragmatic Democrat and I get it. This is a moderate, centrist country. When you fight to the end for the unachievable you often get nothing. There will not be and never would have been single payer or even a strong public option. There is just not the support for it — Democrats from red states represent different constituencies than is reflected here. That’s the reality.
I agree with you. And, partially because recently I was speaking to someone who said it was his experience that liberally minded folks could hold 4 or 5 thoughts about any given subject at the same time. Conservative [thinkers] can only hold one. Maybe that’s why they can read a memo and follow through without any thought, foresight, compassion. I think the folks I’ve seen in all the videos look like dolts, fools…oh, I could go on and on.
“Their purpose is to intimidate and threaten reform proponents…”
terrorist
• noun a person who uses violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.
— DERIVATIVES terrorism noun.
http://www.askoxford.com/conci…..st?view=uk
In this case, the analogy to Nazism is correct–this is an attempt at a putsch. We all knew (smart people) that the attack on the Obama presidency would make the hunting of Clinton seem tame. And we knew the corporate henchmen would try to derail healthcare reform. Now we see that the teabagger parties was just a way to generate a list of people/rubes who could be called out to act like thugs.
The only solution is to outorganize them. TV ads? Great. But that’s not enough.
So where the hell is Obama’s Organizing for America? Why they hell isn’t it contacting and energizing the millions of people on its list? And where are the other similar organizations? If this isn’t the time to call out all progressives, what is? We need to have a progressive force at each and every town hall. We need to blanket the offices of our reps. We need to keep up the phone calls.
Instead? FDL is doing yeoman’s work. And the rest? Zzzzz. I signed up to host a canvassing event in my neighborhood about a public policy, and I can’t get the damned OFA folks to return my phone calls or emails and get me the material to distribute.
Well, most of the Dems aren’t being “outflanked.” They’re doing exactly what they’re supposed to be doing. They’re scuttling Liberal reform from within the Party. That is precisely why the DLC/Blew Dog games were created, so they’re succeeding wildly so far.
And as far as Obama, so many of y’all in the “Obama needs to…” crowd were so wrong so often throughout the campaign, and in many cases so far since he’s been President, that I’d think some would show some humility and realize they might be able to learn a few things. I mean, here’s a guy from no privilege or money, works his way up from the grassroots, navigates Chicago/Illinois politics all the way to becoming America’s first melanin-enhanced President, all while bucking the the DLC, Repub, and BigMedia Establishments.
You think he’s being outflanked by these VERY predictable moves by the fake Dems and Repub PR operations? I’d suggest he understood this might happen quite well, and has planned for it. We’re right in the thick of it, so don’t know about you, but I’m more motivated than ever to get out there and make it happen, since our President has proven that he can take a punch and counter with a knockout. Should be fun to watch and mix it up over the next few years.
Where the hell was Rachel, Matthews etc last Thurdsday when the Health Care Now Rally and lobbying where going on. Too busy covering the Obama Beer summit and showing the same damn clip of the beer summit hundreds of times. Not one of those talking heads covered this rally. Not one
Thousands Marched, Reps were there. The only media outlet that covered that rally was C-Span.
Not a whisper about that rally on Chris Matthews, Keith’s,Ed’s or Rachels. They all showed the Obama Beer Summit clip at least a hundred times over the evening. Not even a whisper about the rally in D.C. that day not even a whisper.
Yet Rachel, Ed, Chris Matthews all covered the Republicans who were interrupting Reps who support Health Care reform yesterday. Those radicals received huge coverage by these talking heads. Chris Matthews even had the nerve to ask “where are the marches on the others side” What an ass (and I have stuck up for Matthew plenty) but he has his head up where the sun does not shine on this issue. Where the fuck were you last Thursday Chris Matthew’s? Where was your coverage of the Health Care Now march in D.C. last Thursday? Middle Americans were there, Doctors, nurses and other health care professionals who know exactly what the situation is in our broken health care system.
Where the hell was MSNBC’s coveage of this rally? They were focuse on the beer summit. And now Matthews has the slippery balls to ask “where are the marches from the other side”
Rachel is as guilty as Matthews on this one. She showed the same damn clip of the beer summit that evening and not even a whisper about that rally
Conservatives health care town halls
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036697/#32275044
Last night Rachel Maddow spent 15 minutes covering the radicals interrupting our Reps addressing the broken health care system. BUT last Thursday Rachel did not give the folks on other side of the issue who held a rally in Washington D.C. RAchel did not give this rally one breath not a mention.
Maybe Rachel and Matthews should go watch the coverage of that rally on C-span since they completely missed covering it but covered the Obama beer summit ad nauseum
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/
Where were you last Thursday Ed, Keith (Howard Dean was the host) Chris Matthews and Rachel? Where were you when Health Care Now folks were at that rally in D.C. last week. I know showing the beer summit hundreds of times
I think you have a very valid point. A town hall meeting is an official government-sponsored event and as such could possibly be cause for censure.
Moreso, exposing the idiocy of this in viral video and other means will show to the majority of “normal” folks what classless jokers these folks are. Ridicule them for their “tactics” and they will fail.
the disempowered (R) faction would bring the same sh*t in response to real health care reform – like a single payer plan – now the (D)’s have to endure the brownshirt tactics against a fake, faux, noxiously watered down plan that might allow 10 million people into a constricted ‘public option’.
I agree with this observation. And they are always with us. The Right knows this and uses it for their own means.
How come it’s always 25% that approve of Bush, or don’t want health care reform, or shout down the safer and saner 75%? I don’t know, but we seem to average one in four people go coo coo for cocoa puffs at any major change.
Notice how these people get lots and lots of media coverage and the people who oppose war and war profiteering go begging? This isn’t democracy! I’m not saying hey everyone has to agree with me, but I want to be heard!
Right on!
Although, I thought OFA was being fairly active. Personally not really involved with them, but my better half gets their emails constantly and tell me about all the stuff going on. Sounds like your experience suggests they could be doing even more.
Well, that is my hope as well. However I think these tactics achieve two goals: one is to disrupt the meetings obviously, and two, to gain footage to splash all over the media to sway the 73% into thinking they are not the majority, these people are. manipulation by mob, then by media.
So we’ve seen this all before. What do WE do differently?
I’m confused.
Yesterday I thought counterdemonstrations were the way to go. I’m not at all sure of that now. Mrs. BC still believes it, and she’s willing to get right in the rent-a-mob’s face. I’m not at all sure, because I’m not sure how stable these people are.
I’m open to suggestion, folks. If counterdemonstrations are the way to go (actually, I’d advocate organizing our own demonstrations at every congressional/senate office in the country), then I’ll do my part. I’ll organize and I’ll be there.
But what do we do?
geez – republicans are so much better at down-in-the-dirt politics than are democrats.
and they don’t even have to reinvent the wheel – it worked in Florida in 2000… evidently still works just fine, thank you very much.
and another big thank-you should go out to our dogged national political reporters, who have been calling b.s. on this since….
well, they haven’t at all, but then, what else is new?
Agree completely. This is exactly what happened during the campaign when the Paylinpalooza got cranked up. I feel contrary to popular belief, that McInsane really started tanking because of their hard tack to crazy after the Repub Convention, and not because of the Economy drop.
Meanwhile, Obama kept his cool and appeared the adult. I heard this exact thing from many of my Repub acquaintances who ended up voting for Obama.
We would do well to follow this model as the highly-funded PR campaigns up the ante. Always take the high road and remain calm and focused. Give them the rope to hang themselves. They do it every time.
The big lie happens to be true; the lie is who is responsible for the dismantling of the country. Greedy profiteers who care not one whit about the mobster’s lives, enlisted family members, sick grandmas, etc.
No, Nazism was killing 10 million people and putting kids in gas chambers and ovens. You make statements like that and you are no different from Glenn Beck.
I think Dems are lame on purpose. They get the same perks for “serving” in elected offices as repubs. They’re just a little less greedy. Gravy, man, gravy.
I want Obama to stop floating like a butterfly and start stinging like a bee!
They are dangerous so discretion may be the better part of valor.
But what do we do?
call Katie Couric and tell her Sarah Palin is behind all of this.
not true, but then, I’m talking about Katie Couric….
I think Dems are lame on purpose. They get the same perks for “serving” in elected offices as repubs.
I agree. They may not, on the average, make as much $$ as their R counterparts, but then, they’re not working as hard for it either.
Do nothing = getting PAID.
I think you are wrong when you say these are “rent a mobs”. I have hung around Republican politics for a very long time and I have never seen people so stirred up on their own. My own age group (near senior citizen) are angry at the state of the economy, the bailouts, but particularly health care. They see rationing, increased taxation for the undeserving, Communists we always fought against in the highest power of government and now government dictates. I think people really are in the early stages of a rebellion. The folks on the left had better realize this IS a center right country and folks don’t really want this. If you impose it, you risk far more trouble than you think. The danger you face is in the usual rich/poor dispute there are more poor than rich. But in this fight there are more covered people than not–by FAR. And we paid our bills and paid our dues working. And it’s not going to be accepted.
The clips I’ve seen show the honest people in the crowd quietly sitting there. The ones I’ve seen interviewed have lamented that they simply wanted to ask a question about their grandma or themselves that has a health problem, and how we can improve their care, yet they were not able to get answer because of the screamers.
They are not increasing their numbers doing this. They are hurting their own cause and too stupid to see it.
We should schedule more and more “listening sessions” and community education events about healthcare. We should make sure teabaggers know about all the events and hope they show up (provided we have security), and especially get media there or at least YouTube video.
They are nailing their own ideological coffins shut the more they scream, and we can gain immensely from it, provided we DO NOT stoop to their level and scream back.
This strategy worked during the Prez campaign with the Paylin crowds and the PUMAs (Sister Harriet Christian anyone?)
Let’s get on it!
Timing is everything. Another thing he’s proven to be really good at.
Meanwhile, we need to improve the conditions on the ground. Lots of work to do…
Brush up on your history and read what I wrote more carefully.
Fascism isn’t what Glenn Beck or the author of Liberal Fascism have told you it is. I’m not comparing these organized thugs with the final solution but with the brown shirts and the fascist strategy of putsch.
These folks know that they are angry and are not going to take it anymore, damnit. They hate that a black man with a funny sounding name is president, and they feel generally aggrieved. This is exactly the fodder for fascist politics.
Again, brush up on your history more before you engage in false equivalents to criticize those you think are making false equivalents.
Thanks for the replies, pups. I really hate bullies.
You know, why don’t these congresspeople walk to the back of the room and have everyone turn their chairs around?
That way, teabaggers are in the back. Ha! tables turned.
Lillybelle — Redfish is a troll. Probably a paid one, at that. False equivalents are his/her stock in trade.
You are 100% correct.
that particular fish has smelled bad since it first floundered in the door, and several pups (ahem) have been modded for responding.
OT – it’s raining cats, dogs, and probably various other small animals either in Indy – can’t tell, cause i can barely see out the window.
and – oh yeah, it’s time for me to get back out there, naturally. later, pups…
Redfish was home schooled.
Typical to call someone a troll that doesn’t agree with you. It’s just like right-wingers calling Obama a Socialist. You can’t intellectually handle the truth or debate so you attempt to demean those who express a different opinion than you.
I think you don’t quite have the soul of america right.
If it’s one thing it is freedom and the the bill of rights.
Government IS the people and no one wants the government interfering in their lives. Government is there to make our lives better, guaranty our rights, protect our SHORES, maintain domestic tranquility.
Government is the commons: things we share and all need and that includes money, roads, air waves, education, courts, fire and emergency services, education, housing and even health.
Free enterprise has nothing to do with the soul of America – that’s CAPITALISM. What we want is a fair system and a level playing field, rights of workers protected.
Do you think every American is supposed to run their own business – free enterprise for all? That’s ridiculous and you know it.
I can read what you wrote and your attempt at rationalizing falls far short. It’s not ever appropriate to use Nazi in any political context; it does not serve those who were slaughtered.
…and still dropped out.
Despite denial and avoidance on the part of many commentators, what drives a lot of these hooligans is racism (as others are noting here), plain and simple. The right and the health care corps. are latching onto this negative energy from those who cannot recognize the humanity of a person with a face that’s not European-looking (white).
Which is unfortunate, because if Darwinism (natural selection of the fittest) applied here, these folks with this attitude would become extinct, as not recognizing all colors as humans is a counter-productive survival strategy which hurts the overall community and the individual.
My hope is that this will backfire on these prople, and it well could as constituents who attend town halls to seek real answers and get shouted down encourage their congress critters to show courage. (??? Is there any in the house?)
The point is simple; this country does not have the soul of France or Canada or England. We are naturally suspicious of government, read James Madison et al. If you don’t thing capitalism is deeply ensconced in America’s soul you are wrong. I never said every American should. could or would run their own business — but free enterprise and making a profit are an integral part of the fabric of America. We do not like the government to run businesses.
This government was set up by capitalists by and for capitalists. They escaped for religious but primarily wanted independence to escape taxation because the freedom to earn PROFIT is the basic rights specified in the declaration…life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness (which correponded with Locke’s PROPERTY). No one wants their property taken against their will and that’s exactly what the so-called Health Care power grab does…as well as take away our freedom to choose.
Has anyone suggested giving these Reps a very loud bullhorn to use? He or she could walk right up to one of these paid thugs and let him have his answer right in his left ear. He won’t hear for a week. Let them then complain.
That might curb some of the protesters’ enthusiasm…fight, damn it. Fight hard.
Instead of becoming extinct, they will grow as the economy gets worse. More will be created because someone has to be blamed for their problems. Obama will be first, then no doubt AAs will be there and immigrants most certainly will. It’s always “it’s not my fault”. They don’t ever seem to get that the policies of their own gov’t are what’s holding them down.
And thus troll number two appears.
DLo — shouldn’t you and Redfish be off somewhere boarding the buses for this afternoon’s town hall?
Surely you jest? Health-care debate connected to racism? And you wonder why the fringe-left is excoriated?
If “they” see this then (…”rationing, increased taxation…”) they are unfortunate self-anointed victims of the wanton materialism that is so rife in this culture. Such limited lives! Living in America, with all of these goodies around us, how the hell could anyone who’s not a minority be angry over their fate? ???
Who, after all, brought us to where the “state of the economy” is right now?
So, what you are saying is that, given that the continuation of the current health care system will bring America down to a place of weakness and debilitation in time, these folks have no nobility left and allow themselves to be played in the worst way.
We report, you decide…
What is the matter five – you can’t handle being schooled intellectually by a Democrat? You know, a real liberal and mainstream Democrat who is not a fringe extremist. The truth is disturbing isn’t it.
What is going to take away your freedom to choose? If you want to stay with a private insurance company, do it.
No one cares. Do what you want to do. The rest of us would just like to see ourselves and our families have some kind of insurance. Do you have someone in your family who can’t afford it? If you do, think about them.
That’s sort of like saying that the whole focus of Judaism and Christianity is the condemnation of homosexuality simply because of a few lines in Leviticus and one of St. Paul’s letters…
You may recall that the cry during the revolution was no taxation without representation.
Minorities in this country have it better than in any country on Earth including health care whether insured or not. And Twain @53, Obamacare, in the form of HR3200 will take away my private insurance. My company will decide it is cheaper to dump us all into the government plan. No way. That’s why people are objecting.
No…Taxation without representation was the key point. This health care is also government without representation. As far as homosexuality is concerned, that is your business, although I happen to think Leviticus is right in this regard.
They don’t want the rest of us to have the right to choose, they like the system exactly as it is today.
Then lobby your company, knucklehead. Get together with your colleagues and negotiate.
The current uproar over health care is just one branch on the tree. At the root is a desire by the Republican Shadow Government to inspire an assassin. Refined evil.
DLo, why are things such as the military, police, fire, freeways, and so on not based on a profit-motive?
Medicare, I can tell you, works extremely well as does VA – gov’t run health care. Right?
Lots of programs are run successfully by gov’t at one level or another. Or perhaps you go down each week and pay teachers, firefighters, police officers, etc. with your personal check.
I think you may be right. Our vigilance can help prevent this though, so none of us can let up.
Reading the back and forth between several of these comments reminds me of why I don’t join in the middle of the day comments anymore.
BargainCountertenor, I agree with your comment above about thinking twice about getting out in the faces of these groups. Reminds me about what the mommas asked when they said, And, if everyone else jumps off a cliff, will you do the same?
Some of this stuff I’ve read here, name calling, questioning other’s education, has motivated me to go work in the yard, before I go off to work.
Try to play nice. You don’t have to, but just Try.
If you read the history of Germany in the 30s you must always focus attention on Krystal Nacht. The current disruption of town hall meetings by dems is indeed our Krystal Nacht.
My problem is the same as always. The Dems knew that this was going to happen, yet they did nothing to counter it. We have all of Aug for them to figure out how to counter something that should have been done before they left DC.
It could very well happen in my lifetime. Corporate fascism. The oligarchs of the corporations are sending out the agitators, directed by the authoritarian rethugs, to disrupt democracy. Yet our dem “leaders” are doing the exact same thing the Weimer Republic(a democratically elected govt) leadership did. They are closing their eyes and hoping it all goes away. Ain’t gonna happen.
Democracy by the mob. The sheeple listen, the dems pee their pants and the mob rules
Paz3, your hope is what the dem strategy is. The dems hope that the mob rule will backfire. Ain’t gonna happen.
What is gonna happen is that while the shell of a republic will remain, the guts will be torn out. The MSM smells blood in the water, they concentrate on crap that means nothing, but sounds good.
Get ready, the torches and pitchforks are coming out.
It does not matter anymore what Obama says, what his press sec says, the MSM smells blood and they will yell the same questions over and over and over. A pack of rabid wolves, ready to help in tearing the country apart.It does not matter what the objective truth is anymore, as Goebbels proved, you get the MSM spouting your message and the truth will not matter, the lies will get the headlines. Why do you think that the rethugs dominate the MSM and dems are nowhere to be seen.
Future prediction. If nothing changes in 2010 the thugs will gain back congress and will elect a thug prez in 2012. Then the real fun begins. We will have a corporate fascist govt with the biggest military in the world with the neocons list of countries to attack in their hot little hands. What they want and desire? If you have been paying attention they want nothing less than Armageddon. Nothing less. They desire a nuclear war. They really believe that their god, the evangelical jesus, will take the believers to heaven while the rest of us die.
And unless the dems in congress get off their fat dumb asses and start to fight back, that is what we will get.
It does not do a damn bit of good to write comments about how nasty those thugs are. They are the brown shirts, the only thing to stop them is to figure out a strategy and do something.
I freely admit that I do not have a freekin clue about what to do. If someone actually does have an idea I really wish they would act on it and do SOMETHING.
Corporate oligarchs + evangelical xristians + authoritarian rethugs = A theocratic fascist dictatorship run by the oligarchs.
I watch the news from countries other than the US.Never watch the network news because they do nothing to inform and much to dissxemble lie and cover up.I watch the news from China, Korea, Japan and the EU. They are all starting to get worried as should anyone with sense. The worlds largest military is one hell of a big stick.
they are doing what works while the liberals sleep
the repubs know how to win
the demos well if you have been following politics the demos are spineless
time to drain the swamp in wash and make new rules
and quit treating the consitution like a bible
Is that a rhetorical question, bonkers?
We are in the midst of an experiment of privatizing the military and we’re finding that it doesn’t work well. (See Gulf War II, Taliban, Afghanistan and al Qaeda for specifics.)
We tried private fire departments in the 19th Century. It didn’t work: fire departments were owned or contracted to various insurance companies. If you had the wrong plaque on your house, the fire company (that’s why the basic unit of a Fire Department is a Company, btw) would stand by and allow it to burn. Or, fire companies would into fights over which group had the right to put out a fire. Meanwhile, the structure burned. It didn’t work so well at all.
We’re beginning to experiment with private freeways. I expect that will work out badly too.
Some things are natural monopolies, or the State insists that they be natural monopolies. Roads and bridges, Fire and Police, Military all qualify. With a natural monopoly, there are two choices: government runs it, or government hands it over to private hands and regulates it.
I think experience has shown us that government runs monopolies better than it regulates them. Compare, for example, the toll components of the interstate highway system to the SEC. Or the military to
Blackwater, errr,Xe.I like it better when people talk to each other, not at each other.
That’s just me.
I invite anyone here to think about that.
The Constitution is the most inspired political document in the history of man. You would scrap it for health care? That would not be wise.
Medicare does not work very well at all. Most of my doctors will not accept Medicare patients precisely because they don’t get paid. As far as the teachers, there is a reason that parents want to send their children to private schools instead of public schools. Para-military organization for the defense of all, such as police and fire, and the military are those who are best used for government service.
Well, I genuinely like to hear how Repubs/Libertarians twist and turn to that question.
I agree with your points but don’t think it helps to persuade others to our viewpoint by calling them “natural monopolies.”
It’s simply because a few things should not have a profit motive driving the decision process. For the most part, even the most staunch Libertarian will agree that police, fire, military, etc. should be run on the profit motive. They are for the common good.
This is our strongest argument for single-payer in my opinion. On the most fundamental level, profit should not drive whether or not someone lives or dies, and the more healthy America’s population is, the stronger America is in general. Healthcare should be part of the same Common Good.
If you tax a company so it doesn’t exist any more who is there to negotiate with? You can’t kill the goose with Obamacare or HR3200 or whatever and still have golden eggs.
You do have a way of avoiding answers.
The North American tectonic plate is the finest tectonic plate on the planet – and anybody who disagrees with DLoerke wants to disintegrate it with ultra low frequency sound waves!
and don’t even try to deny it!
just helping out.
OMG ROFLMAO Are you liberals hypocrites or what! You have ACORN show up everywhere – and it’s the Republicans/Conservatives who are paid and bussed?
I’ve shown up to a few meetings and a town hall – I was neither paid nor bussed and nobody else was either.
As far as violence, we have made it a point to not even raise our voice and when anyone has gotten into anyone’s face it’s been ACORN.
Those Republicans/Conservatives showing up at these town halls do so of their own volition and because we care about what this president and you liberals are doing to this great country – IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RACE! We aren’t the ones who brought up race – it was your fine president who once again spoke irresponsibly. And as Hillary once said ”it is our right to disagree and debate any administration.”
And you’ve asked a lot of minorities this question lately, and contrasted their plight against, say, minorities in Canada, Great Britian, France…
Really?
Yeah, it’s the Repubs/Cons that are thugs …. guess you said ” I want you to argue with them and get in their face” Your fine president!
Now us liberals are having ACORN show up everywhere?
You’ve been seduced by the great ACORN fear. This one’s an old Limbaugh meme that’s already moldy.
It has everything to do with race, and that’s why you are shouting and ranting “…IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RACE…” , because once the racial motivation is more clearly identified as behind much right wing “anger” it will take a lot of wind out of your sails.
So, keep it up, because one of your minions is going to slip up soon in their recklessness and let the cat out of the bag.
OK, I get it. What we are facing is media denial that the disrupters are a teabagging, astroturfing Dick army. And the same multi-billionaires are funding it as funded every other attack on free speech and public discourse. And they are doing it because they don’t want to share 3% of their billions in order for those without healthcare insurance to have healthcare insurance. No, actually they want Obama to fail like Clinton did so they can have a resurgent GOP in 2010.
Now, I don’t think these folks are paid to do this. And if they are bused, I suspect that it’s in church buses. These are the same folks who turned out for Sarah Palin.
So what else is new? It is so obvious that it is not going to change the debate.
Actually the Bible is the most inspired political document in the history of man. As a priest once taught me, “It [justice] begins in the Gospel and ends in politics.”
And the great religious documents will be around long after the Constitution is but a memory. Assuming there’s any world worth living in by then.
I was really glad to hear Gov. Dean on npr a little while ago call the people doing this “brown shirts.”
A caller to talk of the nation had attended a meeting last night, held by his Congressman to discuss health care, that was shut down by people following the “Freedomworks” tactical instructions.
this is truly a sad development. If it continues, it will be the final death knell on our democracy.
“Freedomworks isn’t some “organic grassroots” outfit. It’s run by former Republican House Majority Leader Dick Armey — corporate lobbyist, global warming denier and ladie’s man. The President and CEO of Freedomworks is Matt Kibbee, who was trained by Lee Atwater. Kibbe was behind the attempt to get Ralph Nader put on the ballot in Oregon in 2004, prompting a complaint to the FEC of illegal collusion with the GOP.
“Steve Forbes is on the FreedomWorks board. As Paul Krugman noted, their money comes from the Koch, Scaife, Bradley, Olin nexus, as well as other reliable funders of right wing infrastructure including Exxon Mobil.“
Talk to us about Dick Armey, Matt Kibbee and the others who are paying for and organizing the bus stops for the PAID angry mobs . . . . deny the details that Freedomworks is running this mob show.
Please. Show us we’re nuts and wrong about who’s in charge, and running this dog and pony mob show.
Really…I work with minorities every day. Folks in IT tend to do that…
You might be surprised, but I disagree. The Constitution is a charter of how to live together as a republic without concentrating power too much but still having the energy in the Executive to prosecute defense. The Bible is a wonderful collection from many authors of varying periods of history–from tribal to monarchic to revolutionary and may have some validity is a moral creed but little for a political one. As Jesus is supposed to have said, Give to God what is God’s and to Ceasar what is Caesar’s. The Roman Constitution was more of a basis for ours (the Republic) than anything in the Bible although we are a fundamentally Christian nation.
OT: Bill Clinton arranged the North Korean transfer of American reporters’ release. I wonder what we gave for that?
It strikes me that we keep getting caught out by this. Something happens, the Republicans make a move or take advantage of an event to put their own spin on it, we wait for the media to call them out on it, and then we’re all caught flat-footed when they “overlook” the true heart of the story and buy into the Republican spin. We’ve learned a lot of things in the past eight years; how better to win elections, how–somewhat–to make our voices heard in government, even, in some isolated instances, to get the better of corporations. But the one thing we never seem to have any real preparation for is the corporate spin provided by the media. We’re constantly playing catch-up, reacting to the latest bunch of nonsense and trying to correct the story that the Republicans and the corporations have already been able to frame. It ends up discrediting us because the media is constantly able to play the “teach the controversy” meme and the ordinary viewer either gets lost or gets bored.
This not to discount the great work being done by bloggers on this site, TPM, HuffPost, and others; but the bare fact is we are not reaching the audience we need to. We need to come up with a strategy that will allow us to get the information we have to large portions of the country, and in a way that will listen (which most lefty bloggers don’t do; most of them tend to write for an audience of the converted, often heavily relying on snide comments and in-jokes that people who aren’t already confirmed leftists won’t get or feel sympathetic toward; for instance, I think your average American would be bewildered at any kind of hatred towards David Gregory or Chuck Todd). Once we find a way to create a counter-narrative to corporate media, we’ll find it that much easier to convince people that what we want is the right thing for them. And that’s half the battle to getting the things we want enacted.
It has nothing to do with race you arrogant elitist. If you look at those who show up for the town halls and tea parties, they are made up of all races – I know the mainstream media doesn’t report that, but it is fact. An example of the mainstream medias fair and honest reporting: there was a rally in Columbus, OH on Saturday 8/1 there where 8000 to 10000 people who attended – the media reported 200-300! What are you libs afraid of?
And I could care less what Limbaugh says – do you care what Chris “I felt this thrill going up my leg” Matthews says.
For the past 5-6 years I’ve been saying that the Republican party and the conservative movement in general have two choices: 1) Abandon the radicalism or 2) Become fascists.
Basically, the Republican party is as afraid of these people as anyone else, but for different reasons. They are afraid because they know the radicals are the only way they can keep power while serving corporate interests.
OK. I changed my mind on euthanasia.
These are the same god gays guns crowd that Rove tapped into in the Bush selection and election. The people who hide behind crosses around their necks while screaming “go bomb all of the middle east” along with the gay folks.
You know people who vote against their own self interest
Maybe the Health Care Now folks could put together a JUST SAY KNOW conference base on facts not fears. Hell maybe Chris Matthews, Olbermann, Maddow or Ed would cover it if someone is screaming or interrupting since all of them missed the well organized and orderly Health Care now march that took place in D.C. last Thursday
Sestak on Health Care
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v…..re=channel
Nice piece of fiction. I am an independent,retried, and belong to a number of conservative groups. I pay my own way for everything as do the other members of these groups unlike ACORN and its affiliates we do not get taxpayer money. The groups I belong to hold fundraisers for their existence, have members contribute, and are not affiliated with either party.
I guess it is hard for some people to believe that Americans who are conservative can think and act for themselves.
Keep the demonetization of a majority of Americans going, it is helping the numbers in these groups grow.
Most of them are hiding their arrogance and selfishness behind little crosses around their necks. I don’t know when the light bulbs will go off in their heads Jesus was a socialist
It’s ironic, isn’t it? What were they thinking when they went for the watered-down public option?