Josh at TPM notes that Joe Lieberman has shifted his argument for opposing a public option.
Yesterday, he claimed the public option was a health entitlement that would add to the deficit, just like Medicare. Various people promptly shot that down.
Today Joe changed his tune to match the insurance industry argument that AHIP used in the PriceWaterhousCoopers report, which was also discredited. (Also here, here and here.)
Here’s Lieberman today on Fox, via TPM:
If the public option, the government run health insurance company, negotitates hard to lower the reimbursement, the money it’s paying to hospitals, doctors, they’re gonna have to get that money somewhere, and where they’re gonna get it is from the 200 million americans who today have private health insurance. Premiums will go up. It’s exactly what’s happened with Medicare and Medicaid.
My hospitals in Connecticut told me a while ago that they get 70 percent of the average cost of patient care from Medicaid, about 90 percent from Medicare. If that was it they’d go out of business. So they charge the private health insurance companies 130 percent of the average cost, and that’s what would happen with this new entitlement, new government run health care program. It’s just not worth the risk.
The insurers’ “cost shift” argument has been challenged by health care economists. It implies several interesting but unspoken assumptions that Congress hasn’t fully digested:
1. There is no competitive market for or pricing of health care. Instead, there is a set of costs that health care providers must recover, and they have the market power to force insurers to pay whatever they need to cover those costs.*
2. So if Medicare exercises national market power to force providers to accept less than what providers want, providers will turn around and use their market power to charge the private insurers whatever the providers want to make up the difference.
3. Moreover, while providers have this market power over the helpless insurance industry, they are not fully exercising that market power. How do we know? Because arguments 1 and 2 mean that the providers could have charged insurers even more in the past, but didn’t do so (out of the goodness of their hearts?). (I suspect this will come as a suprise to economists!) They’ll only exercise this hidden market power if the public plan comes in and imposes its own payment reductions on the providers, at which point the providers will exercise more of their market power and raise prices to the private insurers.
It’s a clever argument. It says that despite the massive and pervasive concentration of the insurance industry in most states, the private insurers are mostly helpless against the greedy doctors and hospitals.
That excuse would then explain why, 2-3 years before most of the proposed reform measures take effect that would try to regulate insurers and drive down provider costs, the insurers are proposing major increases in premiums for next year. The insurers are arguing they have no choice, because those greedy doctors and hospitals are forcing these price increase on the insurers.
But let’s go back and reexamine Joe’s argument (and the Business Roundtable is buying the same argument): In swallowing the AHIP argument, he’s really saying that providers have tremendous market power to force price increases at will on private insurers, whose premiums are passed through to the businesses and individuals that have to pay the escalating premiums. And even without the public option, the greedy providers would still have that dangerous market power.
There are undoubtedly communities in which provider hospitals and doctor networks do have and exercise market power. But the strategy that might check that market power — expanding Medicare and/or giving lots of businesses and people the choice of a public option tied to Medicare’s pricing — is the one thing Joe and his insurance buddies won’t let us do. In fact, Joe and his like-minded colleagues would kill health reform to prevent us solving the market power they implicitly assume is causing the health-related fiscal crisis. So much for the fiscal scolds’ concern about future deficits.
And heaven forbid we should strengthen the public option by opening up its counter-market power solution to more people and businesses. Better to just let the health care system bankrupt the country.
__________
* I read this argument somewhere, will update when I find the link.
More: Igor Volsky/Thing Progress, Lieberman Lies to Justify Healthcare Filibustering
The Incidental Economist, The Healthcare Cost Shifting Myth and Show Me the Studies — covers the debate with links and counter-arguments from comments.



35 Comments







“Better to just let the health care system bankrupt the country.” ; it’s a close race between the health care system and the defense industry.
Someday people will wonder why these people in power weren’t taken out.
Are you loathing Lieberman? You’re not alone. A friend sent me a link to the Loathing Lieberman facebook group. Didn’t take long, did it?
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/group.php?gid=330119835110
Thanks.. I just joined it too.
If we join, do we get a reminder when it’s Joe’s birthday?
It’s must be Halloween. Boo!
Me too.
All that matters is if Lieberman is popular in CT at the time he’s up for reelection. Loathing by nonvoters does him no harm.
LOL, thanks!
Cost shift is so much bull. Uwe Reinhardt demolished the theory recently:
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/16/is-medicare-raising-prices-for-the-privately-insured/
only if (a) is the answer to uwe’s question:
you have some evidence that is so?
Hi,
I haven’t as yet read this Uwe person‘s analysis but it seems at first glance that insurers are just payers of the services rendered to providers from the appropriately set premiums that it collects from payees. That is, the insurer is a passive conduit which charges a fee for making payments. Here there is no bargaining that takes place and if the costs to providers go up the premiums will need to go up as well. The insurer continues to profit as before.
I presume that in this case insurers act as in option “(b)“. And it would appear that cost shifting does take place from provider to the payee of the premium. Or am I missing something.
Now I feel that no cost shifting and no increases in premiums would necessarily occur if providers started to care for an increased number of patients in the PO plan, even with less than 100% rates of reimbursement. That is because providers are not getting 100% from these largely uninsured people anyway and they are still caring for them. In fact the losses to providers for caring for previously insured people that are now insured may actually go down. After all this did happen when Medicare was first put into place.
Even if insurers act as purchasers, as in option (a), I don’t see how cost shifting would differ markedly as if they acted as in option “(b)“. I may not be getting the concept of what cost shifting entails clearly.
I’ve added a couple of links to an economist who argues against the cost shift, and you’ll find the studies he’s looked at. Also see the comments to the last link, where commenters push back.
Uwe’s link is in the post. “The insurers’ cost shift argument has been challenged . . .”
National Health Service, then.
that’s exactly right. If our idiot rulers don’t get their act together, in another 5 to 15 years (depending on how quickly they bail water from our sinking ship of state) they will be left with only one alternative.. system nationalization followed by brutal cost cutting. By that time, tens of thousands will have suffered and died unnecessarily and, in the chaotic transition to the Federal Health Service, tens of thousands more will die.
That’s not what he said at all – read the end, he offers two theories and the second one is correct.
my de facto assumption here is that any argument Lieberman might care to make should be assumed, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to be fallacious.. a flat out lie. But OK, I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt here, just for the sake of argument.
Yes, underlying provider costs are out of control, and so are insurers’ premiums. Apportioning blame between the two parties is a chicken-or-egg-type problem that I wouldn’t even begin to want to debate with people who seem to reject the premise that the system is broken in the first place. The simple fact is that, most likely, this industry hasn’t seen a real (market-determined) price in decades.
The fact is, costs are not out of control because there is massive inflation in the relative (normative) value of the underlying services. They are out of control because of massive waste and fraud in the system (up to $850 billion a year worth according to most independent estimates). Tackling this waste and fraud requires real competition (which favors a robust PO accessible to all consumers) combined with enforcement and transparency. Even Lieberman should understand that much.
Of course, this has nothing to do with policy. It has to do with even more waste and fraud – namely, the fact that the senator in question is bribed, bought and paid for. There. I’m done giving the Great Troll of Stamford the benefit of the doubt.
Ah, behold the new Republican anti-reform meme (note that Joe LIE is conforming). This sounds like the confusing argument I heard from the governor of
NorthSouth Dakota this afternoon on ATC(NPR). He mentioned in passing that before he was in politics he owned a — wait for it! — insurance brokerage.I really had trouble following, and was wondering how to counter this “new” argument. He claimed that taxes and costs would shoot up untenably with the public option, that the public option would make private insurance holders pay more in premiums to fund the public option, and all in all the evil public option would raise costs to everybody.
http://www.npr.org/templates/player/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=114253855&m=114253846
If we can buy off the Taliban, we can provide health care for our citizens. Period.
Or get out of the wars and have universal coverage.
I think that’s exactly the problem. We buy off the Taliban. Our own homegrown, rethug variety…
Someone needs to take Joe out to the woodshed
And they need to do it fast
Since Jane dared Senator Lincoln to filibuster a public option last night on TRMS and launched FDL Action PAC’s “Fund Organizers in Arkansas: Dare Blanche Lincoln to Filibuster the Public Option,” almost half the target amount has been reached.
Less than 24 hours.
Impressive!
Makes one wonder how other countries do it, doesn’t it?
Simple … we curtail greed.
Lead the way, Petro.
Got a secret up your sleeve?
90 percent taxation on all pay–deferred or otherwise–over $5 million per year.
I like that for a start!
But, greed is inside. Like trying to legislate right mindedness, that’s something I don’t think we can do.
this is a $900 billion per yr reform package of an industry where $850 billion a year is just getting outright stolen or lost, where the latter figure grows by about 12% a year.
Put another way, imagine a boat that can take on 1500 gallons of water before it sinks. You trying to bail 900 gallons of water each hour from the deck but there’s a hole in it’s hull, taking on 850 gallons of water an hour, and that hole is growing at a rate of 12% an hour. Math question: how long will it take the boat to sink?
Oh, yeah! They don’t have for profit insurance corporations!
Insurance companies are not poor innocent bystander hapless victims at the mercy of unscrupulous hospitals. They pay “regular and customary” fees for most services.
This is an argument that we need to pour more money into the system to meet the voracious demands of providers.
This is exactly right. Why exactly does Sen. Lieberman think that the government should do this?
In most areas of business, providers chase markets that have a certain amount of value. In principle, the providers compete to capture that value. But Lieberman is arguing that providers should not compete on cost at all, but should be permitted to set prices and force the market to pay. Jeezus, I’ll bet corporations in other markets would love to be able to do that!
In other countries, there is some idea that doctors provide a public service. Also, we have governments that legislate to keep costs under control in one way or another. Because our health systems are not on the whole market driven, we don’t have any vested interests willing to buy our politicians. Sadly, in your system, you cannot overcome that, and your nation will be dust before you have a health service.
Providers do have the power to price their services in order to make a profit. These prices, especially prices for hospitalization, exert pressure on health insurers. Traditionally, medical insurance companies used the simple “indemnity” model to set premiums. In an indemnity system, the insurance company simply calculates the premium and rules for a health policy which enables them to pay for medical care at existing hospital rates. Of course there is also a profit for the insurance company.
Regulating provider rates for fairness is the next step after health care legislation passes. You have to start somewhere, and the insurance companies are a reasonable place to start.