There appears to be no limit to the number of lies and misrepresentations the unprincipled opportunist Joe Lieberman will embrace so the media will think Joe is "relevant."
CBS enabled Lieberman’s relevance by allowing him to lie repeatedly on Face the Nation; the inept Bob Schieffer never bothered to challenge any of Joe’s blatant falsehoods.
Lieberman’s most egregious falseholds involved his claims about the public option and his misrepresentation of the CBO analysis of how the public option would affect health insurance premiums.
Lieberman: I think that a public option will actually hurt the economic recovery, and our long-term fiscal situation, because it will end up causing the government to raise taxes, will probably raise premiums, or it will put us further into debt.
. . .
I want to be able to say yes . . . but I feel so strongly about the creation of another government health insurance entitlement, the government going into the health insurance business, I think it’s such a mistake that I would use the power I have as a single senator to stop a final vote.
. . .
Schieffer: But is what you’re also saying, nothing is better than a government health insurance, a health insurance reform that includes a public option? Nothing is better than that?
Lieberman: Well, the truth is nothing is better than that, we ought to follow, if I may, the doctors’ oath in Congress as we deal with health reform.
I’m afraid, . . .
Amazingly, no one is talking about it. The Congressional Budget Office said on Thursday, when the House Democrats put out their health care reform plan with a public option, that the public plan would end up charging higher premiums than the average premiums charged by the commercial health insurance companies. Now why would we want to do that?
Why would we . . . the Congressional Budget Office has also said, if the government creates a public plan, the public is going to be on the line, when it runs a deficit, as it surely will, the public, the taxpayer is going to have to pay for it.
Despite several efforts to explain the CBO’s analysis of the effect of the public option on premiums, it is still being misunderstood by the media and misrepresented by scoundrels like Lieberman. The CBO said (h/t Jon Walker)
That estimate of enrollment reflects CBO’s assessment that a public plan paying negotiated rates would attract a broad network of providers but would typically have premiums that are somewhat higher than the average premiums for the private plans in the exchanges. The rates the public plan pays to providers would, on average, probably be comparable to the rates paid by private insurers participating in the exchanges. The public plan would have lower administrative costs than those private plans but would probably engage in less management of utilization by its enrollees and attract a less healthy pool of enrollees. (The effects of that “adverse selection” on the public plan’s premiums would be only partially offset by the “risk adjustment” procedures that would apply to all plans operating in the exchanges.) emphasis added)
Pay attention, Media: The reason CBO claims the Public Option could have "premiums that are somewhat higher than the average premiums for the private plans in the exchanges" is because the CBO believes the PO would be covering sicker people with higher costs than those covered by private plans.
It’s an apple and oranges comparison. In other words, private insurers would select and cover healthier people, and thus have lower premiums; the PO would accept and cover all comers, including sicker people, and thus have higher costs and higher premiums.
That is not a criticism of the public option; covering people who are being screwed by the private system is a powerful reason to have the PO. But why does it occur?
The CBO analysis explains (or rather obscures with technical terms) that the private insurers will discriminate against sicker people, even though the new regulations prohibit such discrimination. The embolded sentence means the PO will not attempt "management of utilitzation," which is a euphymism for saying the public option will not behave like the private insurers who will discourage sicker people simply by providing them less responsive coverage.
The private insurers will do everything they can to discourage older, sicker people from choosing them, thus nudging these more costly patients towards the PO. As a result, the PO will tend to have older, sicker patients, with higher health care costs, and so the POs premiums will, on average be higher than the premiums private insurers charge for caring for healthier patients.
In addition, the CBO is conceding that the reform mechanism for discouraging the private insurers from such cherry picking and discrimination in violation of the regulations will not work as effectively as it should. The private insurers will cheat on the exchange rules and undermine the cost-sharing mechanism that would otherwise require private insurers to reimburse the public option for covering higher-cost patients.
Lieberman turns the CBO analysis up-side-down. He claims the PO would cost more and cause government to bail it out. But the opposite is true; what the CBO is telling us is that the PO is actually more efficient than the private insurers. While it’s premiums could be higher if it has to cover higher-cost patients, it would cover those patients with premiums less than the private insurers would charge if they were forced to cover the same patients.
Moreover, CBO is explaining that the PO’s faithful coverage of the higher-cost patients would allow the private insurers to have lower premiums for the lower-cost patients they cover. In other words, even if the PO’s premiums were higher (given the sicker patients it covers), its mere presence allows private insurers’ premiums to be lower, while providing lower cost coverage for the PO’s patients.
In sum:
1. The PO’s presence would provide lower-cost coverage for sicker Americans.
2. The PO would allow private insurers to charge lower premiums to their healthier enrollees, because higher-cost enrolless were covered by the PO.
3. The total cost of coverage for all enrollees in the exchange would be lower because of the PO’s lower costs for faithfully covering the patients with the highest costs.
4. The CBO provides powerful arguments for why a strong Public Option is vital not only to lowering premiums for everyone in the exchange but also for ensuring there is viable coverage for those Americans the private insurers will do everything they can not to cover.
5. If there is no viable PO, and the government were not able to enforce the prohibitions on discrimination that private insurers will seek to evade, then millions more people will be pushed out of the system and/or badly mistreated by the private insurers.
6. If there is no viable PO, and the government succeeded in enforcing the prohibitions on discrimination, then total private premiums would rise (to cover the sicker payments), and so would the need for government subsidies, thus adversely impacting the federal deficits.
7. If Congress wants to lower total premiums and reduce the federal budget for subsidies, while ensuring more of the uninsured are covered, then it should include a strong PO and give more people access to it. A weak PO and limited access makes everything worse.
And Joe Lieberman is an unprincipled, lying scoundrel.
________
h/t to ThinkProgess for the video and story.



51 Comments







“And Joe Lieberman is an lying scoundrel.”; you are too kind. And Bob Schieffer isn’t just inept, he’s bought and paid for by the DC power structure; useless interviewer.
Jane has one up about Liarman
http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/11/01/why-is-lieberman-scared-of-big-bad-rachel-maddow/
Schieffer never questioned Lieberman about the Insurance State of Connecticut, or that Lieberman’s wife made gobs of dough lobbying for the insurance companies. I know, details details…
joe lieberman is indeed an lying scoundrel.
but there is no viable public option if it can not compete on cost.
p.s. for households with income below 400% of the fpl, i don’t see how the public option can charge higher premiums. am i missing something?
If there is unchecked adverse selection/cherry picking, then sicker people would be nudged towards the PO, assuming it functions as CBO assumes; healthier people would more likely be captured by private insurers — this function is independent of income.
i was thinking that the subsidized plans would all have the same premiums (and out of pocket expenses), so the private plans would not be able to compete for customers on cost, while the po could compete on quality.
Woiuldn’t people who have pre-existing conditions or sicker people tend to want to go to the public option anyway??? If I had a pre-existing condition and there was a public option, I would go get a rate check. I would find that my rate would be lower through the public option and choose them. This isn’t insurance companies being wrong in pushing them away it is a realistic fact of the cost structure being set out by the very concept of a PO
people with income under like $16,600 a year would be eligible for medicade and not the PO
Lieberweasel always gets a mic.
A question I’d like the CBO to answer:
Will the overall average premium price go down in the Exchange? Or increase at a less fast rate?
The CBO says something about the relative cost of the public option vs. other plans, but not of the overall price trajectory.
The relevant comparison would be average premiums in the exchange with and without a PO, while holding the number of people covered constant. What CBO is suggesting to me, however, is that you might not be able to hold the coverage number constant, because without an effective PO, the private insurers would tend to discourage some of the sicker people from seeking or maintaining coverage. Why pay for insurance if you’re constantly being screwed and not receiving true coverage. The PO should function as safety net for those being screwed.
the mandate penalty.
…..
i’d like to see the predicted cost of premiums (and out of pocket expenses – premiums aren’t the only cost!) compared with and without the reform proposal. we’ve been told that reform is supposed to make health insurance affordable, but does it?
this, of course, gets to the issue we’ve discussed the need for data on many times — the total cost of national health expenditures and the components to it.
btw, that reminds me, i have another question for you, scarecrow…. it’s about the cms report on the tricommmittee version of hr 3200 that came out recently. do you know of any reason to treat that report as suspect? thanks!
Yeah, it does get complex, and with subsidies masking prices to an extent, even more so. The competition isn’t solely on price or quality, and adverse selection can happen through advertising, for example, instead of straight price/quality lines.
As is Bob Schieffer, by the way. His brother Tom was a Bush Ranger and a Bush-appointed Ambassador (to Australia and Japan, iirc). But you will never, ever hear him mention that when he covers Bush-loving politicians like Lieberman. Ever.
i did not know that. thanks, good info.
His brother Tom is running for Governor of Texas as a “lifelong” Democrat, by the way.
Interesting.
Yup. Just how you never hear it mentioned that Ron Fournier is a Rove buddy and very nearly became McCain’s official 2008 press secretary (as opposed to his unofficial one, in which capacity he seems to have served McCain assiduously).
And nobody ever talks about Politico’s GOP connections.
Candidate Obama’s healthcare reform plan had “NO MANDATES”. This Congressionally created legislative reform included a concession, that if there were to be mandates there had to also be a public option.
With all the newly insured patients/customers and Medicaid subsidies there has to be a balancing force to keep prices down — that’s the Public Option.
Joe doesn’t want the concession compromise (the insurance lobbyist position), but that isn’t going to happen.
Want mandates? Vote for the public option.
Your counting your chickens before their hatched, you haven’t yet got a healthcare bill. By the time it gets through the Senate, we will be lucky to see anything passed. If there is it will be nothing good and cost everybody way more.
Check out this clip of Jon Stewart doing an imitation of Liarman.
Also a great question in this clip “who turned Reid around on this public action thing”
“hand tying left wing of the Dem Party otherwise known as 55% of the American people”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/29/jon-stewart-takes-on-medi_n_338113.html
How ridiculous. Trying to untangle this haywire, Rube Goldberg contraption known as Democratic Health Reform. I say Kill it and let the situation fester until people finally scream and we do it right. MEDICARE FOR ALL. Nothing else will work.
Got the votes to pass it?
That does not mean the current bills shouldn’t be killed anyways, especially if it will only known for mandating coverage; which is going to be the Republican’s number 1 talking point in 2012 and 2014.
Of course you have to work within the realities that exist, but we are wasting our time and effort. We can’t begin to make any real reform that is beneficial for the people, until we remove money from politics. That should be our main focus.
You remove the money, suddenly the elected by corporately run congressmen/woman and Senators will start doing what is right…start doing what the people truly want. But I digress…
Read my previous two posts to know what I think about Joe the Foe.
That’s why I’m a big fan of http://www.publicampaign.org. They’re working on getting the money out of politics at the local level. We’re also getting the chance to try out IRV in the Twin Cities. Will report back!
that sounds great! thanks!
Please do! I’m glad to see IRV getting to see the light of day, if only at the local level.
reminds me of the modern day parable of looking for looking for lost keys under the streetlight, because that is where the light is best… even though that’s not where the keys were lost. it’s harder to look in the dark, but that’s the only place the keys are going to be found.
there is no policy to provide universal healthcare and control costs that has the votes to pass. that is our work. and i don’t care if it’s single payer or something i’ve never heard of. i just expect it to be good enough policy.
This is correct and also why whatever bill that eventually passes (I do expect the House progressives to fold) will fail. Costs will continue to skyrocket, the system will become more and more unsustable, and we will be back discussing this in a few years, maybe sooner if the economy really tanks.
Sadly, I’m afraid you’re right. Initially I had hopes that even if we didn’t get Medicare-for-all we might still get a viable public option that would leave the door open for single-payer in the future.
Apparently I was naive, because I now believe as you do, that whatever ends up being able to pass will be so bad that it will actually make our horrible system even worse, and Democrats will be punished for it.
Leaving it up to Republicans. Which means they will strengthen the worst parts of this crappy reform and do away with anything that actually helps people.
we will have to give obamacare a chance first. it’s not fair to judge too soon. /snark
i wonder what the appropriate FU will be? 10 years? more?
OK, unless the PO ends up creating a stir by offering good value plans. Even if only a few million are covered, if word gets out the plans work, the shroud of disinformation about ‘socialist health care’ will be lifted and the public will start demanding broader access. As unemployment persists – and it looks like it will – more and more people are going to qualify anyway. It’s not an unlikely scenario.
Adverse selection really has to be policed by someone/something overseeing the exchange. How is that supposed to work? Who makes sure plans that get a healthier pool of applicants contribute to those plans that don’t?
Good analysis and discussion, Sacrecrow and folks. Btw, can anyone recall, when CBO’s 10 year forecasts were ever anywhere near the mark? Don’t we need to call BS on the whole process of the way CBO trys to forecast impact on the Federal Budget of legislation?
Someone should do a report on that…
CBO is organizationally hamstrung, as well, because they can only base their predictions off prior experience. If you’re doing things legislatively with little parallel, then that kind of analysis become unreliable very quickly.
so, exactly what analysis have you been using to justify your claims about affordability, cost, availability, etc?
serious question since you’ve just panned the very report that it looks like hickey and kirsch have used to sell the public option policy initiative to progressives.
http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/11991/
and btw, i’m still waiting for you to provide some evidence to back up your smear/innuendo of the cms actuary (same link).
Evidence shows that nothing puts a government further into debt than having Republics in control. It doesn’t matter if it is a local, a state, or the Federal Government.
This is great, if you havent seen it:
Brad Blog on the 2nd Tea Party Express forming right now:
Tea Party Express II: Rise of the Tea Bags
http://www.bradblog.com/?p=7487
This guy is sick. The DNC ran against him a few years back, his feelings go hurt, and now he is trying to punish his old party to get revenge. He knows the facts, but he still uses Republican talking points to justify his newest betrayal.
Regardless, I’m afraid that Joe knows his time is coming to an end, he knows that he probably won’t get reelected for backing McCain over Obama (thought he was going to be on the ticket) in the general election. So now he is doing what he can to spite the Democratic party, in his last remaining days. Which probably means that no punishment or ultimatum is going to make any difference. He’s all roguey and mavericky now.
I can’t believe this guy was on the Democratic ticket in 2000 (when he still garnered respect). <_<
Joe needs to be called out in public by his Conn. constituents and exposed publicly as a LIAR. He is truly a disgrace as a senator….
I doubt it will make a difference. As I said in my previous post, his feelings got hurt, he knows his days are numbered, and now he will do all that he can to get his revenge against the Dems.
His days as a serious Senator, is over. No ultimatum, public disgrace, or punishment is going to stop him from doing what he wants, up until his term is over.
Though you would think that he could at least be censured, for being a United States Senator and so obviously lie about these things.
I could never understand why the Clintons ever forgave him. In September 1998 he had singlehandedly made the impeachment of Bill Clinton politically possible by being the first Dem to give the GOP’s witchhunt a bipartisan tinge, right at the very point when the GOPers were starting to get nervous about pursuing it. (The Dems and Reps had started to notice in the polling data what would later be borne out at the polling places: That Americans a) didn’t like the impeachment drive and b) would try to punish any politicians that pushed it.)
So Lieberman kept the impeachment drive alive, and the Republicans pushed it — and kept pushing it even after they got spanked in the midterms for it.
You’d think that this alone would justify begging Gore to ignore Tipper and put somebody besides Boat Anchor on the 2000 ticket. And you’d really think that this would justify them going all-out for Ned Lamont. But noooooo.
I couldn’t agree with you more. Lieberman’s agenda, has and is becoming quite apparent. And now that his days are numbered, no one can control him. Well maybe if an anti-insurance lobby gave him a million dollars, he might reconsider.
We should start a “Pay off Lieberman” fund. lol, then maybe he’ll vote for cloture?
“That’s why I’m a big fan of http://www.publicampaign.org. They’re working on getting the money out of politics at the local level. We’re also getting the chance to try out IRV in the Twin Cities. Will report back!”
Looking forward to updates. :)
It is well past time for Schieffer to retire. The guest list seems to require at least one appearance of McCain, Hatch, Graham, Lieberman weekly.
Of course CBS lets Lieberman lie. Hell, they’re working with the Moonie Times now! They have no shame.
Why should the corporate media tell the truth?
Their narrative arc says that Obama, the improbable winning candidate, will have to fail on his signature initiative so that they can write about his failure. What the Village creates, the Village can and does destroy just for sport. Ask Jimmy Carter or Bill Clinton. Or examine the past 35 years of the United States of America.
Good examples.
That is the essence of the argument and highlights the dishonesty of Lieberman’s statements. But it is important to realize that Lieberman is simply following in the steps of the Republicans in establishing a narrative. There are a few facts in what he says but they are incomplete and don’t tell the whole story. Rather they are used to tell the story that Joe Lieberman and those who fund him want. They then repeat the story despite its lack of accuracy or honesty. We have seen this a million times before. We are seeing it again.
Ted Lamont needs to be encouraged to start his campaign now.
or Teddy Jr.
This wasn’t “the inept Bob Schieffer.” This was Bob Schiffer doing just what he gets paid to do.
Bob Schieffer phones it in from out to pasture….