Watching Sherrod Brown, Ron Wyden and Harry Reid try to explain why the Senate’s emasculated health reform bill was still worth voting for was painful. These men know they’ve been defeated and humiliated by an unprincipled extortionist fronting for what amounts to a deadly protection racket.
Whatever Joe Lieberman’s motives, the reality is that he just performed a moral crime on national television. He’s essentially said that if Democrats want to provide even poor health insurance to 30 million uninsured Americans, the federal government and those citizens will have to pay blood money to an industry protection racket that will have the economic and political power to set the terms of that protection, shield itself from oversight and competition, and raise prices at will.
So you see, this isn’t about Joe getting even with Jane or me or any other "liberals." This is about organized crime. The victims aren’t "progressives" or other Democrats.
No, the victims are ordinary people, like the thousands, lovingly filmed by Eve Gitteleson, who showed up at the free clinics because they’d lost their jobs or their insurance and hadn’t seen a doctor or dentist in years, and the victims are those who will continue to go bankrupt, struggle to survive, or suffer and die. These are the people that Joe Lieberman is holding hostage and from whom the health industry would extort trillions of dollars in protection money.
This is a terrorist act. There are 15 times more deaths per year being perpetrated now, and threatened again by Lieberman’s demands — and those of every Republican from Snowe to McConnell — than were killed on 9/11.
So when the Washington Post’s idiotic Anne Kornblut praises Joe for his "courage," all you can do is wonder — and cancel your subscription.
Ezra Klein on Countdown made the argument many will now make: it may be unconscionable for Joe Lieberman to threaten to leave 30 million people uninsured, but that also means it would be unconscionable for Democrats to kill the bill and leave 30 million uninsured. A brutally divisive debate will rage and split everyone who actually cares about the 30 million.
Because that’s what extortion and protection rackets that threaten peoples’ lives do. We are arguing about paying extortion ransom money. Justice demands the perpetrators of these monstrous crimes be brought to justice, but justice and our common humanity also require we protect the victims.
The health reform debate is no longer about "reform." It has now become a hostage rescue effort for more than 30 million innocent victims. Every decision from here on must put the victims’ interests first, and whether we pay the extortionists’ ransom demands or not depends how that serves the victims’ safety.



237 Comments







Damn Scarecrow once again you hit the extortion nail on the head. Lieberman is the inside hit man for the profit margin of Insurance companies. Just as Hank Paulson was the inside heist man for Wall Street
This is the first time I have ventured into the heart of the enemy, but I just had to see how quickly liberals turn on their own. And see what exactly they say about those that are their friends as long as they vote and do exactly as the the liberal base says and demands.
Oh and it is very funny how you liberals act like the republicans are the first to use the filibuster, HA you make me laugh hard.
It’s funny how Lieberman is the enemy when he wants something when I am willing to bet nearly every other democrat has gotten pork out of the deal already. Of course he is your dearest friend when he votes with you and makes the final 60th vote. Enjoy this now, mid-terms are a comin’ and by nearly all polls you have less than a year of your majority left.
The funny thing I find is how ‘educated’ you liberals are when it comes to why healthcare reform is needed and how ignorant you are when it comes to how much it costs. This is the Federal Government for crying out loud so whatever they say the cost will be you can add 40% on top of that because they all lie about the costs.
Healthcare reform is needed, but not a federally funded healthcare plan and for Christ’s sake not adding more people to medicare. The problem is the massive profits by health insurance companies, that is where it all started and where it should be fixed.
Oh an referring to the process a bill is allowed to take as terrorism is a joke! Too bad there are people in this country that care enough to actually protect your freedoms with their lives.
Going to stop now because I am sure this will never actually get posted, heaven forbid anyone stand up to the tyranny that is liberalism.
Go crawl back up Andrew Breitbart’s ass.
Yay! I am not alone! Keep on posting, Ex. Maybe the two of us can empart on them a little common sense.
you don’t mean common sense. You mean private insurance company profits in billions of dollars. You will not get anywhere here. Your time would be better spent sticking your heads back up where the sun does not shine
Dear exsemnowreformed. I have worked my ass for the Dems for 40 fucking years. Please do not talk to me about turning on them. I mean tens of thousands of hours for the Dems over those 40 years. “turn on them” fuck no I have worked my ass of for them. They need to pay a price for caving into Liarman. And I have never trusted Liarman ever…never. This guy has been a turn coat over and over again
Liarman did not give a flying fuck about out of control cost when it came to his and the other liars genocide in Iraq. An unnecessary and immoral war. No concern for cost then. Your arguments are very weak when a 57 year old blue collar woman can rip them to shreds in seconds
If this is your first visit you probably should have waited a bit before attempting to subtly persuade people to the dark side. Check the old episodes of Star Wars emperor Palpatine and his interactions with Vader for some ideas. Palpatine generally used positive strokes related to concentration on the powerful individuals being more important than lesser beings. Try working with that for a while rather than a full on frontal attack.
Democrats being disappointed with Democrats is as old as the party and is the basis for wanting to see things improved. Republicans generally believe that their party leaders can do no wrong and Democrats want things improved today.
I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat. – Will Rogers.
Palpatine – Lieberman obviously separated at birth.
And so what do we do?
ORGANIZE A DIE-IN on the senate steps
millions must come
A DC Die In – Protest
It could look like this:
Photobucket link
About that die-in. Millions should come, maybe like 50 million, which happens to be the number of future citizens that were eliminated by the abortion industry in the last 35 years. Yeah, that would be a good number to shoot for and the imagery that would provoke would be an amazing site to behold.
Sherrod Brown, the left of center Democrats, and Bernie Sanders:
Excise, Kill The mandate, or you will become dead to us!!
A die-in is an excellent idea. Millions of Americans of all ages laid out on the steps.
What do we do?
1. KILL THE BILL: It lacks competitive force of a public option, opportunity to buy into Medicare, drug reimportation, meaningful controls on premiums, bans on benefit caps, safeguards against rescission. All it offers is an individual mandate that benefits the private insurance and pharmaceutical industries.
2. Go to Washington and stay there until they listen. They will never give us health care unless we make them.
Send e-mails to your reps.
Photobucket link
A Die In Protest
I”ve emailed until I have carpel tunnel syndrome to no avail!
I don’t agree with the premise that we have to pay the extortion money in order to protect 30 million. It is not a “hostage rescue mission”. That makes this set-up look like something righteous. This health care “reform” was never….never… “reform”. The fix was in before the election was even over. The deal with Pharma was in place months ago probably before that. This whole theater of the absurd has sucked the energy out of any left that is left and kept the theft happening at the big banks from too much scrutiny. We even have the so-called left attacking Matt Taibbi of all people. Welcome to being Good Germans.
We need a national day of joining the Green and/or the Libertarian Parties. We need to scare the crap out of them.
If we dismantled, reregulated, or nationalized the entire investment banking system on Wall Street, the 30-45 million uninsured would still be there, and tens of thousands could still die because, having no way to pay for it, they didn’t get care. I don’t hear a proposal to address that.
sure looks that way to me too. i don’t know how many people see it that way though.
Kill the bill.
Obama needs to get on board with the public or with Joe Lieberman.
Can’t have both.
agreed. and Obama, Reid, and Pelosi are drivin’ the getaway car
I’d say Obama, Reid, and Hoyer, for sure. I don’t know if Pelosi is driving or being taken for a ride.
All that is needed for evil to triumph is for good women to do nothing
Scarecrow,
I appreciate all your efforts.
Its a damn bitter pill to swallow, but just told Harkin’s office to KILL the damn thing.
This has been an act of Venality in that promises were made, tremendous efforts expended, and all WE THE PEOPLE get are crumbs.
I did the same thing. The body of my email to him only had three words. Kill the bill. I hope hundreds of Iowans wrote and told him to kill it.
I thought there was 47M uninsured? Is this a sub-set intentionally eliminating some of the uninsured?
No, the problem is the larger number; but the Senate bill addresses only about 30 million, and that’s what Lieberman was referring to.
Come on, this narrative sets up Joe Lieberman Inc. as Dr. Evil and the rest of the Harry Reid Inc. Senate as the dragon slayers who fought the good fight but failed. As though were it not for Lieberman Inc., the Democratic “people’s party” would have slayed Wall Street too.
Lieberman is just a more outrageous manifestation of Money Ball inside the beltway.
And here we are forced to admit the insurance companies and the healthcare industrial complex won. And forced further to admit that killing the legislation is just a continuation of the status quo—an even greater victory for them.
As PeakDavid says above, “They will never give us health care unless we make them.”
But going to Washington “until they listen” is futile. They never will. They have to be replaced instead.
I still want to know why the American Bar Association does not file charges against Lieberman/Congress under the RICO act for racketeering?
Today I am sending Liarman a prison suit
http://www.nationaltextile.us/correctional_clothing?gclid=CM2ygZbr2J4CFRkGswodJR8-sA
706 Hart Office Building
Washington, DC 20510
Can we please stop equating freaking MANDATES to “insuring 30 million more”??? One doesn’t accomplish the providing of insurance by compelling people to buy it. This perversion of the language must cease forthwith.
What is really disconcerting, is that the mandate won’t necessarily provide the health care people need.
What happened to the PURPOSE?
HEALTH CARE ASSURANCE, NOT MANDATED INSURANCE
Do they think we are just that stupid?
I never realized that there are no uninsured in CT.
So what’s a propitious date to storm the Bastille?
April Fools Day seems appropriate. They’ve played us for fools for too long.
We have way too many complaining post. We know what happens and we know some of the reasons for why it does.
We don’t elaborate on what we achieve
We don’t analyze the reason for the fiasco (Obama is as guilty as Lieberman)
We don’t think about the next steps if any
We scream a lot and do very little (on other issues as well); we should use Lieberman’s techniques; they work.
Hey Jane is the premiere spokeperson on how to move forward. Go after those who have undermined the health care reform, expose them, and support single payer advocates next fall.
beg to differ. “whining” is not to the exclusion of analysis here on FDL. But yes, we need to continue to reassess. It’s just that it’s such a hard slog and the domestic enemies are entrenched.
Once more into the breach!
We don’t protest. Why?
Are we cowards?
Are we lazy?
Are we assuaged to believe our calls and letters sent from the comfort of our homes are enough to make change happen.
If history is prologue, than only massive civil disobedience and/or protest will work.
BOYCOTT THE MURDER-BY-SPREADSHEET INDUSTRY (if you can responsibly do so)
Jeebus. I’ve been away for a while because I couldn’t stand to watch…now this!!! horrible!! horrible!!
horrible!!
I hate this man! I’ve now been reduced to saying an impecatory prayer for his death everyday.
[Modnote: around here we don't wish that on anyone]
I’m a boomer. Friends (ages 50-700 and I have talked a great deal about buying land in Mexico or going to Mexico or Central America for our senior years. Health care much cheaper. Think they could start a national program. Send the seniors to Mexico for health care. Keep the illegal immigrants in Mexico and Central America. Pay health care workers a living wage. Take care of several problems in one swoop
You got some old friends, must be good healthcare where you live. :)
You’re thinking is about 10-15 years behind the reality. There is a VAST expat community of Americans in Mexico….
I think its funny that many Americans seem to be “rooted” here for some reason. The world is Globalized enough that you no longer have to live full time in the United States of America for ANYTHING. If you can afford to ship is FedEx, you can get it, it doesn’t matter.
I don’t have to keep saying it -
1.3 MILLION (with an M) live FULL TIME outside of the United States.
If it makes you FEEL any better, if you spend more than 300 days outside the country you don’t pay INCOME TAX. So you’ll no longer paying for Wars and Bank Bailouts, look at it that way if you need too.
Should we shift our focus now to killing the personal mandate.
I think Jane is correct that the Administration has too much riding on this to not pass something, so they’re going to force this through.
Since we’re not getting what we want is there any chance of getting the personal mandate stripped out?
I think the mandate is very problematic. But discussions I’ve seen about defeating the mandate almost always assume that we would simultaneously get Congress to expand Medicare/medicaid to reduce the number of uninsured. That’s fine with me, as I wrote here:
http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/7337
. . . .but I don’t see Congress moving in that direction.
Good Morning,
left you something on FB.
Good morning. I’ve heard of Nate’s post; haven’t had time to read yet. Thanks.
Joe Lieberman remains in the D Party circle because Barack Obama,leader of the D Party let him stay.
This is not about Joe Liberman. He is the tool of misdirection. A convenient mcguffin to be set up by Obama WH and the D Party.
This is not about how bad the Rs are. They are not able to stop the D Party here if the Ds wanted it. This healthcare debacle was the result of Obama WH putting it on the agenda. Result of the D Party putting it on the agenda. The Rs had nothing to do with this so called reform seeing any light of day in first place.
Did the Rs obstruct it much? Sure. Did anyone who follows American politics on national stage think otherwise would happen?
This healthcare reform was a D Party effort.
Some effort.
Barack Obama is going to tell us this is real reform. He is a liar in doing so too. This was about the money politics and and D Party wanting the money coming its way for 2010 elections and beyond.
This reform debacle is not because of what the Rs did or did not do.
This is a Obama WH/D Party production. When you see Barack Obama flashing the big smile he does so easily connect the dots. It is plain enough.
What is happening with the CPC? Has Co-Chair Woolsey reaffirmed her commitment to vote NO on a PO-less bill and to whip the caucus.
There are really only three possibilities at this point. 1. Lieberman filibusters and the bill dies. 2. Lieberman demands the bill be even further eviscerated until nothing worthwhile remains. In this scenario, the bill must be voted on as is via ping pong in the House, or the bill will go to conference. The CPC is our firewall in either case. Where are they?!?
The other possibility is reconciliation. Why to these jokers not see that this is the very best option?
this is the latest I could find on CPC
Thanks, I hadn’t seen that.
They need to do more, and they need to do it loudly. O and Rahm have to know that they will not get a bill through at all unless they go through the CPC or through reconciliation.
Calling Woolsey right now. Gah too early here. Must wait.
In all their efforts to appease weasels like Joe, the WH has made a real mess of this now obvious farce.
Dean said a few months ago that they should strip all the subsidies out of the bill and call it insurance regulation.
At this point, we’d get that much and could start over toward real reform.
Because Liberman/Nelson/etc is/are not the problem, Obama is the problem and nothing will get through the Senate without his OK — and real health insurance reform will NEVER get his OK.
Yes. Exactly. The thing is that Lieberman is likely going to filibuster regardless of the content of the bill. If O wants a “victory” of passing anything, he needs to go with reconciliation.
Sad to see Senator Brown shill for the spineless Democratic leadership and White House.
he was not “shilling” he was exhausted. Said this is not a “great” bill but a “good” bill. He even said there might be a time to hold the people who have not been “team players” (hello Liarman” to be held accountable.
He also encouraged all of us to sustain the pressure.
WTF is he supposed to do at this point. Beside send in the Feds to Liarmans office for extortion
Shill was probably a poor choice of word. I like Sherrod Brown.
He could have said he’s not going to vote for it.
He could have said we are going to be looking at altering the Senate fillibuster rule.
He could have said we are going to pass health care reform bill and a robust public option through reconciliation.
There’s a lot of things he could have said.
Agreed. Obama calling Dems to the White house. Just announced on Cspan
He is proving he is more concerned about his legacy than a robust health care reform plan.
Extremely discouraging
Ironically, though, his legacy will be that his “victory” was a weak brew.
Maybe Joe is courageous in the way that Bill Maher meant it when he said that the terrorists who attacked us on 9/11 were courageous, though evil.
Yeah, Joe’s courageous, though evil, just like a fucking terrorist.
Oh, wait. Maher pointed out that the evil terrorists had enough conviction to sacrifice themselves.
Joe’s not even courageous like a fucking terrorist.
He’s cowardly terrorist.
Too bad Joe doesn’t have enough courage to go down in flames with all of his victims…
No Mandate!
Health insurance stocks are flying high. I don’t want anything to pass that holds 30 million Americans hostage to the insurance companies.
KILL THIS BILL!
I noticed I didn’t get any emails from Bernie Sanders, et al, asking for money this morning.
They’re all ashamed of themselves — if that’s possible.
I think they knew exactly what Jane and Kos would have done with their letters: held them up to the light for appropriate ridicule.
civil disobedience en masse.
this thread is going to break a record at Seminal maybe at FDL. put one dollar on it. Spreading far and wide
I called my two senators in Maryland today. It is incredible that now .. “They don’t know how they will vote..” They are hiding behind the paints of Joe Lieberman. Its is not a shame? Yes, it is. Where is Sanders now? HIding! He will vote yes. Just watch him!
Yesterday, watching Sherrod Brown and Ron Wyden was painful. My God, these guys were shaking their bodies like snakes. Jan is a champion for me. SHe is saying what will happens for months.
Just kill the bill!
Please don’t use all caps. It’s hard for us older folks to read, and it’s sorta like screaming. We can hear you fine.
Quite simply, Force the Filibuster!
I am amazed that no one seriously considers forcing the GOP and Lieberman to put their mouths where their filibusters are. The idea of the GOP reading the Bible and/or “Atlas Shrugged” 24 hours a day in the Senate through the holiday season, and having to explain to the American people that they are doing it to stop a VOTE on health care reform is deliciously humiliating. I simply don’t understand why a threat to filibuster is never called. Forcing their hand may make them think twice when they are sleeping on cots in the Senate hall and eating cafeteria food Christmas day.
I think you have a very good point. Force them to stand in front of the American people and tell them you won’t allow their representatives to even vote on it. Make a spectacle of it so our tabloid press will flock like vultures to it.
And if we can’t do that, I still say we start a groundswell of opposition to the mandates. Even teabaggers hate the mandate idea.
As crappy as this legislation is, I think removing the mandates takes a lot of the harm it will do away. If they’re going to force us to drink poison, we can at least try to dilute it.
Yep. Except that filibustering will make Obama look weak as well. The CW will be D’s have 60 seats in the Senate and O can even get a bill up for a vote?!?
and it will be true.
Yes. That is why we are unlikely to see Joe Lieberman reading from the telephone book on Christmas Day, as delicious as that might be. No one in the administration will benefit because it will expose their weaknesses.
What DO we do? Honestly.
Folks here and at other Progressive sites have called our Reps and Senators endlessly. Emailed aggressively. Written heartfelt letters to the editor, blogged and signed petitions diligently. We’ve taken road trips, held up signs, volunteered at health clinics, and written checks until we’ve broken the bank. Present company included – and I will continue BUT…
The President, Harry Reid and Rahm Emanuel have broken my spirit. I am angry these three have turned a deaf ear to Progressives – repeatedly. I am angry that they failed to heed the myriad warnings of the traitor that is Joe Lieberman who has now made abject fools of them and the American people. Angry that the President continues hell-bent to seek support from the painfully obvious empty-well that is today’s GOP despite their unceasing obstructionism, hypocrisy, racism and hate.
I am angry at the lack of leadership while people die and morally bankrupt corporations who deny health care out of hand pop champagne corks in celebration of their “victory”. Angry that a few dollars in the pocket of one or two US Senators brings our government to a grinding halt where they then can extort the entire nation for personal gain or because they have an axe to grind.
If there is a true Progressive who will agree to primary the President in 2012, one who will actually deliver on the President’s campaign promises, PLEASE. Stand up and be counted. Do it SOON. I promise not to give any more money to the DNC or DSCC but to you directly, instead. Just let me know where to send the check.
I know it doesn’t feel like it right now, but the progressive movement is growing and strengthening.
The Dems are going to feel it next fall. The only way around this is to throw us a bone. Throw Lieberman under the bus ..pull his chairmanship
…and sack Rahm for good measure.
In response to Wolfsinger @ 52 (show text)
The President, Harry Reid and Rahm Emanuel have broken my spirit
I know it doesn’t feel like it right now, but the progressive movement is growing and strengthening.
I agree Yellowsnapdragon @ 66.
We are angry. We’ve been duped. But, we worked like hell last year for the right reasons and that matters. So, unlike our President, Reid and Rahm – we will adapt and learn from our mistakes. We’ll do things better than before for a better outcome.
Hear, hear!
Cannot be. If it were a terrorist act Jivin’ Joe would be all over it with investigations, him being chair of Fatherland Security and all that He would also have the assistance of Ms Snowe who is well used to shuckin’, jivin’ and lyin’ while doing her master’s will.
Yes, whatever clout firedoglake thinks it has should be directed at killing the bill. It isn’t just that it is bad legislation–forcing people to buy insurance but no gurantee over the quality–it isn’t sustainable and will set the table for Obama’s Act II–the attack on Social Security. The government subsidy of private health insurance is not sustainable and they will use it as the excuse to “reform” social security. If they need 60 votes, pressure Rockerfeller or Brown or Sanders to say ‘No’ without the medicare expansion.
How does Joe like his Medicare, I wonder?
“Whatever Joe Lieberman’s motives”
Aren’t they screamingly obvious?
But don’t blame Holy Joe alone. Barry NEVER wanted the Public option — or anything else that would provide health care for the millions of U.S. Uninsured — as has been screamingly obvious since this past summer!
It’s all a bait-and-switch P.R. Campaign designed to hide a MASSSIVE GIVEAWAY TO BIG PHARMA AND THE INSURANCE MAFIA!
Well, United Healthcare was accused of RICO violations in a court action a couple of years ago-and Krugman wrote an excellent piece aboout it. Here’s an excerpt:
|
The Health Care Racket
By Paul Krugman
The New York Times
Friday 16 February 2007
Is the health insurance business a racket? Yes, literally – or so say two New York hospitals, which have filed a racketeering lawsuit against UnitedHealth Group and several of its affiliates.
I don’t know how the case will turn out. But whatever happens in court, the lawsuit illustrates perfectly the dysfunctional nature of our health insurance system, a system in which resources that could have been used to pay for medical care are instead wasted in a zero-sum struggle over who ends up with the bill.
The two hospitals accuse UnitedHealth of operating a “rogue business plan” designed to avoid paying clients’ medical bills. For example, the suit alleges that patients were falsely told that Flushing Hospital was “not a network provider” so UnitedHealth did not pay the full network rate. UnitedHealth has already settled charges of misleading clients about providers’ status brought by New York’s attorney general: the company paid restitution to plan members, while attributing the problem to computer errors.
The legal outcome will presumably turn on whether there was deception as well as denial – on whether it can be proved that UnitedHealth deliberately misled plan members. But it’s a fact that insurers spend a lot of money looking for ways to reject insurance claims. And health care providers, in turn, spend billions on “denial management,” employing specialist firms – including Ingenix, a subsidiary of, yes, UnitedHealth – to fight the insurers.(Linky to follow)
NOTE:This article is superb and prescient.Worth a complete read,imho. I do not know the outcome of this particular case.
Annybody out there know the result?
r u t h o u t | Paul Krugman | The Health Care RacketFeb 16, 2007 … Is the health insurance business a racket? Yes, literally – or so say two New York hospitals, which have filed a racketeering lawsuit …
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/021607O.shtml – Cached – Similar
I was very active organizing around single-payer from 1992-1995 (public forums, door-to-door, etc.). My cohorts at the time and I were very excited by Hillary Clinton’s push for healthcare “reform” because we felt it was about moving the ball forward, and then we could continue with that momentum.
The failure of anything happening then ended this momentum and actually set back the movement for at least a decade.
Now with online organizing, a resurgence of on-the-ground organizing thanks to Howard Dean, Obama and others, and some small inroads in the MegaMedia like Olberman, Maddow, Air America radio, etc., none of which we had back then mind you, the single-payer movement is farther along and poised for success at levels far beyond anything I’ve seen in my lifetime.
“Killing the Bill” (there is no bill yet by the way) is arguing for a repeat of the failure and set backs from the 1990s. Passing something that at least moves in that direction now, and continuing the single-payer enthusiasm and organizing momentum that’s been built over the last couple of years on top of that advancement, gives us more a chance of making single-payer a reality than at any point in my lifetime.
History shows these types of fights often take generations before victory is achieved. So many of the famous names behind so many social movements never even saw what they were fighting for come to fruition, yet they always believed and understood “incrementalism.” We’re seeing some other issues that have taken decades hit tipping points right before our eyes in Gay Rights and Marijuana Legalization.
Single-payer is moving in this direction at an exciting pace. I’ve never felt more optimistic in achieving it my lifetime. Killing the Bill would stop the momentum or at least slow it down greatly. Chose your actions wisely.
From David Siorta over at Open Left:
Every now and then, a political insider will say something that exposes the real truth about the nauseating state of American politics. Here’s one today, in a Washington Post story about how the Obama administration is trying to crush legislation allowing Americans to purchase lower-priced FDA-approved medicines from other industrialized nations – legislation that President Obama promised to support as a presidential candidate (and that Rahm Emanuel championed as a House member)
george:
Again, Joe Lieberman is not an abberation in Washington vis a vis Wall Street and the health care industry. He’s just another venal chip off the crony capitalist block.
Now the Democratic Party leadership can begin the, “It’s not what we wanted, but it’s still reform” part of the charade.
Well said, scarecrow, that’s what I’m on about! I just said as much in a comment on “Imposerous!”
We’re getting jacked by carefully scripted myths, the 60-vote hurdle being the most glaring. No one should be taking anything these myth-making bastards say at face value.
One great advantage the propagandists enjoy over us is the successful dumbing-down and conditioning accomplished over the last 5 or 6 decades of deliberate efforts to jack public opinion. The Pentagon calls them “strategic domestic disinformation campaigns.” AKA “battlefield psy-ops.”
No disrespect, but the many comments about forming other parties, when other parties already exist, support my point. Most Americans believe in the myth of the two-party system as our only viable means of governance.
It’s nowhere in the Constitution. IMO, it’s a perfect example of “regulatory capture.” And who controls the backstage deals? Our out-of-control-by-design national security state. When the gov’t makes secret deals with drug lords and enforces them with violent acts by as many mercenaries as soldiers, what’s that make that country?
It makes us a narco-terrorist police state. All the rest is window-dressing. This obscene Obama/Lieberman charade being foisted on us as “reform” should be the dead give away. “Extortion for a protection racket” is right.
No wonder it’s said, it’s always darkest just before dawn. My hope is that their imperial overreach will be their undoing, same as it’s ever been. Still, some sort of coup de grace may be necessary. It may fall to any one of us to deliver the metaphorical stroke that sets us free.
That assumes, though, that as they begin to tip, we’re there to recognize our chance and, acting from within, finally assert our self-sovereignty over these usurping bastards.
The democrats are going to need healthcare come next November .
WooHoo! The Bill is all but dead! Now can we focus on getting some REAL reform, and not this horrible “Public Option” idea?
Blogpost title sums up the situation.
I knew when my congressperson, Artur Davis, voted against health reform that the uninsured weren’t significant enough to matter.
The democratic caucus in the house played nice when they should have held Obama’s “reform” hostage .A missed opportunity !
However, progresive disenchantment can still be turned to some good . Drop the floor out of the corporatocracy we call the two party system now before the November elections and show the status quo that business as usual is OVER !
I firmly believe it will not only be the best thing for our ailing democracy , but also for the democratic party itself come November.
“A pound of flesh” springs to mind — I will say no more. However, he is so old and dry only sawdust might spill if he were pricked.
You know I could seriously care less about how painful it was. This bill needs to be killed and none of these guys have the stones to do it.
As I have said about a million times now and as this proves once again, the Democrats are not on our side. They don’t give a crap about us or the country. So we should stop acting like we are invested in them, their victories or their defeats. Sherrod Brown, Ron Wyden and Harry Reid can bite me. We need to take the shreds of our credibility and oppose this bill, this process, and this party.
Venting is healthy, but it never solves much, if anything.
Some have suggested bifurcating this bill. Passing the part concerning reform as a stand alone now and after the holiday break using reconciliation to pass the PO/Medicare part by reconciliation.
Is this worth pursuing?
I’d like to see this idea expanded on. And I also feel strongly that the mandate needs to come out. Like dyanisme said above, it was almost tolerable when offset by a public option, but with no real competition to the insurance companies, the mandate is akin to a government-endorsed mugging.
What are the worthy provisions of the bill that might stand a chance at being passed immediately? Pre-existing conditions?
There are some parts, the drug importation which many of the goopers have said they could vote for, would be a good place to start. It wold be a damn good stab in the eye of the Oh Bummah! WH. Sending Rham ito the woodshed would be a delicious vote for many.
Another stand alone provision would be eliminating pre existing condition cancellation, putting a cap on premium increases and removal of the life time cap that seems to be popular with the insurance business.
None of the above would cost the taxpayer one penny and would save skoots of money for people.
Agreed.
We need the recission bit in, and we need to get rid of the annual, yearly, and lifetime limits that were recently inserted.
Is this what it will come down to:
“Health care legislation abandoned! Progressives declare victory!!”
Will our solace revolve around knowing the insurance companies won’t have access to millions of Americans forced to purchase health?
Or will it revolve instead around 2010/2012 elections whereby successful efforts are made to drive the Wall Street Democrats out of the party?
The latter, of course, but only if this bill is killed. Because if it’s not, the Republicans are coming back in in 2010 and 2012.
After he lost the Democratic Primary in Connecticut, Joe Lieberman went to Don Pharma to beg for a favor.
DON PHARMA. Why did you go to the Democrats? Why didn’t you come to me first?
JOE LIEBERMAN. (Kisses DON PHARMA’S ring) Help me … Godfather?
DON PHARMA. Someday, and that day may never come, I may ask you to do me a service. (To TOM PHARMA) Get him elected as an Independent.
…
DON PHARMA. Well, my friend, are you ready to do me that service?
Oh, interesting to see Ned Lamont, who actually has a successful track record in biz, discuss the economic impacts of Lieberman’s actions on the citizens of Connecticut.
Glad to see Lamont highlighting the problems that HoJo’s behavior is going to create for (a) biz, and (b) the citizens he claims to represent.
It’s not so much that Wall Street won here as Main Street lost.
And Wall Street won because Main Street has no effectual capacity to challenge Wall Street.
And the left has no effectual capacity to organize that.
This simply has to change. Like the 1930s and “the 60s”, history has thrust upon progressives a golden opportunity to change history instead of just reacting to it—instead of just bitching and moaning about it.
Let’s see how that unfolds.
We don’t need to kill the bill….. just that damned mandate. The mandate was only tolerable when it was offset by a public option. But standing alone, it’s nothing other than a give away to the insurance industry.
Can’t kill the mandate without threatening to kill the bill, and, if necessary, following through on the threat. The problem with this process from the beginning has been that the President, the leadership, and the Blue Dogs have never believed that the progressives would ever vote to kill anything labeled hcr. That has left them free to keep watering the bill down until we have the travesty we have now. That’s why we have such a POS.
Now, if they want to improve the bill, they’re going to have to say to Leadership we will vote against this unless we get x, y, and z. And yes, we don’t care if you can’t get 60 votes with x,y, and z. We’re telling you that you can’t get this passed without x, y, and z. So, it’s your problem. You’re leadership. You figure it out. If you want a bill passed you’ll need x, y, and z.
While I’m probably in the minority, I would say this thing as played out pretty much as expected. There are no surprises here. Anyone that thinks that this is just about Joe Lieberman has not been paying enough attention to the rampant corruption of our political process by both parties. The Democrats that supported Lieberman’s committee chairmanship knew what they were doing. Obama, Rahm, Reid and a host of others who profit more from lobbyist bribes than the wages of their office needed a guy to spike the ball. If they hadn’t put Leiberman’s face on this latest story they would still done it all in anonymous committee wrangling.
From my perspective, though, the misguided policy of too-big-to-bail and too-big-to-prosecute coupled with all-war-all-the-time will cost us infinitely more money and lives than this little slice of kabuki. The potential negative effects from the pretend financial reforms that are being rushed through under the cover of the health-reform smokescreen will help codify our socialized protection of the rich.
Legalized bribery in the form of lobbying and politicians, including Obama, that continually send out requests asking for more and more money have lead us to a place where only the guys with the deepest pockets can effect legislation. “Send me enough money and I will consider voting for what you want” is not how democracy is supposed to work. Good times for the wealthy though. More to come.
Blame Lieberman if you want but Democrats control two branches of government. One relatively corrupt independent supported by many Democrats who coincidentally ran against them could not possibly do this alone. There is a lot of money to be made by playing the middle.
We have met the enemy and he is us. – Pogo
I’m with you, temptingfate.
Guys, Lieberman’s not the problem here. He’s a distraction so that the other Democrats can sell us out to corporate bidders. But he only has as much power as the Democratic majority allows him to have.
Scarecrow’s truth telling breaking a hundred comments in two and a half hours.
Hopefully Raw story, Crooks and liars, Huff po and a few others will post it> . Sent it out
THIS article articulates,in excerpt, exactly the dilemma of Lieberman’s hypocrisy,imho:
Lieberman supports national health care, in other countries
December 14, 2009
Phoenix Acting ExaminerTony VicichPrevious
Now onto the problem with Joe Lieberman. Lieberman is one of the US Senates strongest voices for Israel, and Israel has for all intents and purposes a socialized national health care system. Joe Lieberman was, and is one of the Senates strongest proponents on the Iraq War and our occupation of that country. In their 2005 constitution, which we wrote, health care is guaranteed!
Two countries with socialized medicine. Two countries that without US support would not exist. Two countries that Joe Lieberman supports. You can only come to one conclusion. Lieberman cares more about the citizens of Iraq and Israel than he does you and me
Linky to follow.
NOTE: Type Health Care in Israel into your search engine. VERY informative.
Dantes inferno………..Joe and Hadassah will be in the hottest ring of Hell for all eternity…reserved for the HYPOCRITES……..THE DEVINE COMEDY Dantes
I just heard a story this morning about an active person who had a knee operation and died in the hospital of staph infection. This was at a large regional hospital of some respectability in Winchester, Va.
Iatrogenic cock-ups are not uncommon and something of concern. Hospital record-keeping of these events is not as thorough as it should be, despite years of attempts to get this done right.
In any event, the implication is that access to medical care is not necessarily going to lead to better health.
@103
Lieberman supports national health care, in other countries – 17 hours ago
Lieberman is one of the US Senates strongest voices for Israel, and Israel has for all intents and purposes a socialized national health care system. …Examiner.com – 2 related articles »
Hadassah just got back from Israel
too bad,wish she would STAY there
She probably went there for Medical Care.
ahhhhhhhh the FETUS LOVER/CHILDREN,and young adult haters are here
yea….birth em and send em off to WAR…USA!USA!USA!
There was a carefully planned takeover of the DemocratIC Party orchestrated in the mid 1980s by BigMoney. It was called the Democratic Leadership Council, or DLC. The Clintons, Terry MacAuliffe and so many of the familiar names were big supporters and helped organize this. The whole point was to stop Liberal reforms and destroy the DemocratIC Party from within.
I don’t know how someone cannot see this after their actions over the last 15 years or so, and especially right now as these exact same “Democrats” are the ones stopping any significant reform from happening, right?
We exposed J. Low Lieberme and kicked him out of the DemocratIC Party, and we’ve had some other successes with this. This is where we should be focused in my opinion. These forces actively worked against Obama in the Presidential Election since he dared take on their candidate, Clinton. There are some good Dems in the traditional sense throughout Congress, but the DLC/Blew Dog/etc. game was able to gain most of the control over the last couple os decades unfortunately.
Continuing to clean House (and Senate) is how we can win future battles over big issues. We’ve had success in recent years, so it seems clear to me that getting Better Dems is the path of least resistance, as opposed to starting a third party for instance. We know how to do it already.
Lumping all Dems together as “they all suck” is exactly what Lush Limpbaugh and friends want you to do.
And, if I may add, more immediately rewarding.
Yes, I remember tremendous excitement after we exposed J. Low Lieberme and kicked him out of the party with the Ned Lamont campaign. That momentum sustained us into some historic DemocratIC gains in recent years and a dominate Presidential win as we gained our first melanin-enhanced President, when most said it wasn’t possible.
Of course, the exact opposite thing is happening now in terms of motivation, which is really odd considering it started long before Obama took office and considering how many incredibly good things have started happening.
The Veruca Salt wing of the DemocratIC Party is singing an ugly tune, and they’re only getting louder unfortunately:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dU7nG3KvZDA
I love Joe Lieberman. I wish he would come to California and run for senate to replace our idiots. My goal is to get rid of Boxer, Pelosi, Ried, Dodd, Frank, and eventually Nobama. I am liberal on many social issues but the health care bill is a disaster. They want to take money away from seniors and give it to illegals.
So for all you “progressives” on this site, I am glad that we are vehemently opposed to the health care bill although for different reasons. The left wing mind is a puzzle to me. How can we spend money for health care when we do not have it?? Do you people balance your checkbook every month? Do you spend more money than you have? The government should do the same. We just cannot continue to spend spend spend. Oh yea, we can always increase the taxes on the rich.
Joe Liarman voted for the unnecessary war in Iraq. Don’t facts matter to you. The cost of the war in Iraq
Here is what the war that Liarman lied for and voted for is costing our nation in $$$
http://costofwar.com/
go take your MEDS or just hold your nose for about an hour
Wow. That was a weak effort. Are you 12?
AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen Scarecrow and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
All energy and efforts of the progressive blogoshphere and the democratic left must be to “kill the bill”. This failure must be hung around the necks of Obama and the Democratic Party leadership. Obama must drop down to the low 40%’s in order to force him to make the political decision to either throw in with the fascist Republicans or move decisively to the left and overthrow the existing Democratic Party leadership. The progressive base of the Democratic Party is mobilized as it never has been before and that can be leveraged from outside the White House if FDL, MoveOn, the Congressional Black Caucus and progressive women’s groups can coalesce around EFCA, a jobs bill, bankin’ reform and the November elections.
Moderator alert: I am goin to say somethin’ that I said a week or so ago and it was censored and if it gets cut this time I’m gunna turn this place out!
The problem we face politically right now goes back directly to the bailout that Obama advanced in the first month of his administration. Unlike 1929, there weren’t enough rich banksters and bunko artists jumpin’ outta windows. Not enough of the institutions of capital collapsed and the consolidated plutocracy was reinforced by printin taxpayers’ dollars so that the oligarchy could buy out the rest of the congressional leadership. Because Obama did not make a conscious and direct assault on the power of capital, because the financial collapse was not allowed to penetrate the corrupt banking establishment, we now face a worse situation than FDR confronted in 1932-33. Not enough rich folks were harmed in the great crash of 2008 to allow for democratic reconstruction of the economy.
But all is NOT lost, maybe,in fact, we can advance a real people’s politics without “great man” leadership. The communication infrastructure is here in the internet and wireless communication to duplicate the “Committees of Correspondence” and the decentralized politics of the 1770s and 80′s. The Democratic Party base is stonger than it has ever been since 1933 and there are already enough progressives in the Congress to rush into the vacuum now prevailing in the legislative leadership.
So our battle cry at this moment must be “KILL THE BILL!!”
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE FUCKIN AMMUNITION, ALL THEY GOT IS OUR WORTHLESS MONEY!!
Ironic, I was thinking the other day that there needs to be a new Committees of Correspondence. It has to be more than just a dialogue of like minded people on the internet. Most people do not get their information from the net.
You said it, NFT. Kill the Bill, It’s the Enemy of the Good.
Procedural questions: The Senate votes on this POS. Then maybe it goes to a conference committee, maybe not. If it goes to conference and is changed, does the revised version have to be voted on again by the Senate and the House? If it does not go to a conference committee after the Senate approves it, does the Senate bill get voted on in the House? At what point will “THE BILL” actually get sent to Obama?
Sorry, I didn’t see your question for a bit. There is quite an infestation of trolls going on.
If the bill went to conference, both Houses would have to pass the conference report (the version of the bill agreed on by the conference participants).
I think the current plan was for the House to accept the Senate bill in its entirety. There would be no conference and only the House would need to pass the Senate version of the bill. (So all the months of work in the House would have gone for nothing).
After a bill is passed by both Houses, the Congress has a week or two (I forget the exact number of days) to get the bill to the White House and then the President has a certain number of days in which to sign (and schedule photo-ops).
Thanks for your response. It was actually rather quick, given the long trail of troll poo in the comments. I just needed the information to craft my next contact with my Rep (Johnson GA 4th); I usually don’t even bother with Jonny (as in outhouse) Isuksomuch and Sucksme Shameless unless it’s to ridicule them.
Joe’s bagman
As someone noted earlier and then just announced on C-span. Obama having a meeting with the Dems at the White House. Hopefully Joe the indepedent will not be let in.
Call your Reps now…to the phones. another surge
Hey you “progressives”
Maybe you need to understand some basic facts:
1. The American people are against the health care bills but a large majority. Do you even care what the people want or are you smarter than they are?
2. Have you ever heard of Climategate. Maybe you should learn about it. Google it. Learn something. Grow up. There may be global warming there has always been changes in climate. Changes will continue. We can’t change it, we don’t cause it. Why are you “progressives” so open to silly theories. The temperature on Mars increased by 1 degree over the last 30 years. Is that our fault as well?
3. Cap and Trade will have a disastrous effect on our economy. Do you even care? You “progressives” talk about how caring you are and how everyone should have nationalized health care, and how all the illegals should be made legal et al; but do you even care about taxes being increased to pay for big government? I guess you are just smarter than me but I don’t get it.
Citizen bullpelosi:
This is a reality-based community here, citizen, so take your krypto-Nazi stupidity back to your bed under the bridge and hold your breath until I come and tuck you in.
prolly the citizen of a 3rd world country…ya know how repukes love to offshore jobs….hahahahaha
Typical “progressive” response. Just for that I’m going to stay here and try to educate you “progressives”. How is it Nazi stupidity to insist on balance your checkbook? Or should we just print more money? Just do me a favor…if you have a brain, start using it.
What the commenter meant was we have cheap gasoline here but nothing else. The other developed societies have expensive gasoline because of taxation, and that taxation pays for health care, education, alternative (mass) transportation, and other social benefits. What the commenter meant was that we have no money from take-home pay to afford higher gasoline prices – or anything.
Are you a robot? You’re a tour-de-force (yes, that’s French…cover your eyes!) of talking point regurgitation. Impressive.
You really are bonkers, aren’t you. I have an extra hour or so today, I’ll try to educate you. BTW, I am an independent. You know independents. Most of us voted for Nobama, now we moving over the Repubs. We are why you will lose Congress in 2010. Can’t wait.
Can’t blame ya. Things have gotten so much worse from a year ago, haven’t they?
Let’s get back to the less regulation, lower taxes direction we were moving for most of the 2000s. It was working out so well, just like it has at every other point in history.
Oh, and the “I voted for Obama, but now going back to Repubs” canard is so tired. It’s not even worth batting you around like a cat does with a toy. So boring. Can you try another one? Suppose not, since let me guess…you have to work for a living while I just sit here eating my Cheetos I bought with my food stamps.
And almost forgot….while sitting in my mom’s basement. There, just saved ya some keystrokes so you can go back and make all that money.
yeah, you got it there, just a little bit, at the end…
S
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good advice
Thanks, Scarecrow.
Glad to know I’m not the only one who had trouble sitting through those interviews. (OK, yeah, I was yelling at my TeeBeeMurchine, what’s your point?).
I just wish KO and Rachel would be a little harder on these jerks.
FunnyWheelieDiva
Just a quick comment for you “progressives”. Is there such a thing as too far left? For you is it the further left the better?? I guess the furthest left you can go is Communism. YOu know…government control of everything. We aren’t there yet, is that where you want to go? Can government ever be too big for you “progressives”??
I guess if you are talking about the kind of message that Jesus was all about Progressives might be too far to the left. Walking the talk. Health care for all, compassion, empathy.
I will put some money on you are one of those folks who wears a cross around your neck and goes to church on Sundays all of that time doing everything you can to block health care from getting to the very people who need it.
We know your kind around here. Fucking hypocrites. Sick of them just fucking sick of people like you
Oh Leen, watch your language. And also drop the stereotypes. Just because I am against spending money that we DO NOT have, doesn’t mean that I am wearing a cross around my neck. That is profiling which I am sure you are against. As a matter of fact, I am an agnostic and will never enter a place of worship again in my life. So drop the stereotype and drop the obscenities. Grow up. I agree that everyone should have health care. Where I disagree is that our current system needs to be fine tuned, not replaced with a government controlled system. When has the government ever succeeded at anything, except building interestate highways and waging war? How about some tort reform. Oh I forgot, the insurance company is financing the democratic party. If you don’t believe me, check out Howard Dean’s comments. You can probably find it on you tube.
Ummm the government succeeded with Medicare. It’s much more cost efficient than the private insurers. Everyone I know on Medicare likes it a lot.
Get a clue.
The Dems want to cut the medicare reimbursement to save 500 billion dollars. What will that do to medicare? That will cause many doctors to not participate in medicare anymore. Which will make it harder for seniors to find medical care. But what do we care about seniors anyway. We should just send them to End of Life counseling. And what will they be doing with the 500 billion? Providing healthcare for illegals. Does that sound fair to you??
When the mods tell me to watch my language I will. Sorry to lump you in with the thousands of so called Christians, Jews, Muslims or folks of so called faith who twist turn their alleged faiths to hide behind, kill health care reform, actually kill others while hiding behind their faiths. You just sounded so much like them. Calling folks “commies” when they want to make sure that those less fortunate have a decent chance to access our healht care system
Would you say you went a bit over board here “bull”? Just a bit over board. Now I have come half way and apologized for assuming that you were a Faux Christian or something like that. Can you admit that your statement here is way frickin over board “Just a quick comment for you “progressives”. Is there such a thing as too far left? For you is it the further left the better?? I guess the furthest left you can go is Communism. YOu know…government control of everything. We aren’t there yet, is that where you want to go? Can government ever be too big for you “progressives”??
No, I asked a simple question. I am trying to understand the liberal mind. Really. Are you ok with total government control? Is there a limit to government power? Are you for the further left the better??
Do you agree that we are at war with Islamic extremism? Or should we just ignore what they are attempting to do?
As far as health care reform, there are other ways to do it. Fine tuning the system. Tort reform. Check my comment about tort reform and check the link. See why Howard Dean things there is no tort reform being promoted by the Dems.
Do you have a pony tail? :-)
Came half way. Done
You ignored my questions.
Here they are:
No, I asked a simple question. I am trying to understand the liberal mind. Really. Are you ok with total government control? Is there a limit to government power? Are you for the further left the better??
Do you agree that we are at war with Islamic extremism? Or should we just ignore what they are attempting to do? Do you wear a pony tail?? :-)
Your questions are very troll-y. Would you feel respected if I asked you if you were in favor of a corporation owning your body and your children, as if I thought it was possible that you were?
America can only be at war with other countries. Islamic extremism is a concept, not a country. If you’re not a right-winger, you sure love your slogans (“We’re at war against melancholy!”), which is a sign of right-wingness…
Listen closely: there are islamic extremists out there sitting in caves or wherever plotting to destroy us. There are nukes that they are seeking from Pakistan, Russia, or whereever. THey would love nothing more than setting these off in major US cities. It is not beyond the realm of possiblity that these groups can cause major damage here. How to avoid that? Using our military to find these people. If there is a choice between torturing them to find out where they planted nukes (if that is the case) or not torturing them and having a nuke go off, which would you prefer? It may well come down to that someday.
Why would they detonate a nuclear weapon (ignoring the absurdity of ascribing such capability for the moment) when they could just as easily contaminate water and food supply with all kinds of garden variety toxins? They’d certainly kill a lot more people, induce a lot more paranoia, and grossly undermine our essential infrastructure.
The upside here is that the likelihood of you being killed as a result of a detonated nuclear weapon inside the U.S. per the inclinations of some “Islamic extremist” are considerably lower than the odds that your democratically elected government will institute a torture and administrative indefinite detention regime where it makes up the rules of what constitutes “threat” unilaterally, and without accountability.
LOL Right-wingers are helpless but to frame everything in ridiculous terms — “Hey, would you rather eat this ham sandwich or drive this pencil into your ear?” Wow, tough choice.
The choice is not between saving America through heroically sticking needles under Omar’s fingernails or being a wimpy liberal and handing the nuclear football to Osama. We won WWII while rejecting the tactics that Nazis and Japanese used, and were able to claim the moral high ground. If you’re so addled and afraid and ignorant that you don’t see that you can’t use the enemy’s tactics and still claim to be better than them, then I can’t help you.
Besides, what you’re basically doing is admitting that you’re not competent to get the job done without breaking the rules. Nice head. That’s like bragging that you can afford to live in a fancy hotel, without mentioning that you steal the money you use to pay the rent.
If you can’t get the info you need without torturing people, then you suck and you should let someone else do the job.
And another thing: you right-wingers love to very casually accuse other people of not loving or wanting to protect their country. I’d like to see you talk tough like that to my face.
We liberated Europe, but I think the Soviet Union defeated the Nazis. Also, Japan didn’t surrender even after Nagasaki was nuked, but surrendered when The USSR’s troops were poised to invade and when the USSR declared war on Japan.
If my options are “total government control” and “total corporate control”, I’ll take government. At least the bureaucracy and inefficiency of government make it difficult for them to screw me overnight.
Why do you far left liberals hate corporations so much? Do you not understand that corporations have given us the life that we have? Oh yes, they are crooks, excesses, etc….but are there not the same issues within government? Look at Dodd and his favorable treatment from Countrywide, how about that Jefferson guy who had $80K or so in his freezer. The list goes on forever..both parties. Actually I think that corporations are far more ethical than government.
I don’t hate corporations. I hate that the public-trust extends liability protection through corporate personhood, but that corporations carry no similar requirement to serve the public-trust in order to maintain that protection.
LOL Corporations have given us the life we have? Wow, so I guess you ARE okay with corporations owning you…
I accept the charges against Dodd, Jefferson, etc. See, unlike right-wingers, liberals don’t reflexively defend people on their “side” like it’s a frat or a cult or something. Funny how you keep pointing out politicians who are corrupt as part of their dealings with corporations, yet you refuse to put 2 and 2 together.
You seem incapable of speaking with any respect whatsoever. “Far-left liberal”? You mean as opposed to a Far-right liberal? LOL You’re the “far” one, not me. You belong to your little cult and your come in here to call us heathens? Pathetic.
So people working for the people is inherently more corrupt than people working solely for their own selfish profit? Brilliant.
I also hate that we have an overwrought obsession with “markets.” We’ve turned it into a religion, rather than being just one of many useful organizational and valuation tools. It infects literally every single facet of our society, and how we approach social, cultural, and technological trials.
That’s not what this discussion is all about. It’s about the commonsense relationship between the big corporate players in the health care industry shovelling millions and millions of dollars into the political campaigns [and careers] of those in Congress who are responsible for passing legislatation that directly impacts the profits of these very same corporations.
How much more detrimental to democracy, to a fair and balanced debate about health care in America can that be?!!!
I mean give us all a fucking break here. No one is talking about tearing down or nationalizing the health care industry. At a minimum we were talking about a viable public option so the private insurance industry could show world that government healthcare is so screwed up no “independent minded” citizen would opt for it.
You’d think the libertarians and pro-business conservatives would jump at the chance to have the private sector compete with the incompetent, bumbling government.
Right?
Actually many of your fellow libs are calling for a single payer system.
George, I am a really bad person. I am a government contractor, or at least I work for one. Sometimes a request for proposal comes out that is called an A78 I think. This is a direct competition between the contractor and the government. We usually stay away from this competition because the government uses funny math. They don’t have to include a lot of costs that the contractor must include. Same with health care. It is an unfair competition.
And, changing the subject a little, we are a government contractor. I can attest that in all the years that I have been here, we have been scrupulously honest and the President/CEO has high ethics and morales. No money in the freezer here. Not all big business is bad, not all politicians are bad. But politicians gain power the longer they are in office. That is why we should have term limits. That is why I am for all incumbents to be voted out of office and lets start fresh.
Well bull, you’re obviously in the wrong contracting business, hoss. Guess, you just ain’t got the connections, haven’t paid the right
bribesdonations, – missed the boat when Bush was top dawg, pall. Cost Plus was blanketing our economy from sea to shining sea, and you missed it?shiiiiit.
I think you are just stereotyping the entire defense contractor industry. The DCAA (Defense Contractor Audit Agency) is in here all the time auditing our books. We have more overview that politicians have(which is zero). We have ethics policies and ethics training. I think our politicians need some of that as well.
I’m with you on most all politicians, or if you will on term limits. I’d just take money out of politics entirely, make elections be publicly financed.
If your contracting arrangement with the government is so well managed, transparent and fair, why would you not want the same to exist within Health care? Presently the Health Insurers have nearly no free market competitors leaving the consumer at the mercy of Private monopolies.
You realize that Healthcare costs are larger than hell of a lot of countries’ GDP! Private corporations holding and wielding power (on behalf of stockholders) equal to that of whole governments is good, while governments exerting their power on behalf of citizenry is bad.
Please make a case for Corporatocracy, for myself, it just doesn’t compute within the realm of ‘Utilities’.
Full disclosure: Me too. In part because, as an Army veteran, I already participate in a “single payer” government scheme. It’s called the VA. Works pretty good too. Not perfect, of course. But no health plan, private or public, ever is.
By “no one is talking about tearing down or nationalizing the health care industry” I was talking about the “debate” as it is unfolding now inside Congress. But again, in the interim, you’d think the insurance industry would welcome the opportunity to expose yet again a clodhopper government by willingly competing against it.
I never said folks who aren’t liberal are bad. I said they often confuse being “independent” with being “right”. ; o )
.
The government doesn’t do the actual contract work. I’m sure there is lots and lots of “insider trading” going on behind the scenes. Yes, government is often corrupt. But that invariably goes on when different companies compete for a piece of the public pie. Crony capitalism is everywhere. But that can be changed if we elect politicians who are not corrupt.
And healthcare is not the same thing as building highways or installing pipes. All citizens should have basic health care rights. And there is no way in hell the healthcare industrial complex will see to that. Not on purpose.
However scrupulous and honest thy are.
After all, they make money by raking in as much dough as they can from people paying for health care coverage…and paying out as little as possible in providing it.
“Why do you far left liberals hate corporations so much?”
Whatever they did in the past, these days they’re robbing us blind.
Croak!
No, you are trying to define the liberal mind by insisting it is what you say it is.
And you do this by way of reminding us your more “independent” mind is the only foolproof way To Know Everything.
Okay, let’s start here. What [in the view of an independent mind] is the optimal relationship between a government, its citizens and healthcare? Do all the other industrial democracies have it wrong when they insist that healthcare is a basic right of citizenship?
Should medicare be privatized? Are all those who embrace it duped by the liberal ‘big government” mantra? And if it it works for most seniors and is embraced by most seniors why would it not work and be embraced by all the rest of us?
Bull,
Where do you see the advantages of privatizing the whole defense system of the US, down to the last soldier?
Which corporation would you favor to own our National Security?
Easy….Walmart. Then all of the soldiers will be Chinese!!
This was a serious question. Your answer merely reaffirmed the obvious:
47% of Americans are full of bull.
Not sure what you are talking about in reference to what I said at 160. Lost me
Are you saying that the Pentagon hallways are not filled with Defense Companies…revolving door?
Sorry Leen,
I wanted to congratulate you on your civil handling of bull, then changed my mind, forgot to change target.
got it. What an arrogant ass
I’m sick of this ridiculous canard about “what the government can/can’t do”. The government started the Internet, the highway system, the FAA, NASA, many areas of scientific and medical research, etc… just because at some point, private entities figure out a way to exploit an existing infrastructure for their own benefit doesn’t magically make private industry the genesis for anything. Think about how many electronics companies couldn’t sell their products to half the country if the government hadn’t engaged in rural electrification programs. It’s such a lie to act like the government’s had no role in areas currently dominated by gigantic corporate powers.
Besides, 90% of small businesses fail within their first year… so that must mean that the private sector is statistically incapable of doing anything! So we HAVE to have the government do it! Prove me wrong!
In the societies where the populace have good health care, good education, good transportation, good food, and good sense, their ‘governments’ are ‘run’ by people like themselves, who aren’t bitter and stupid.
I thought Repugs were suppose to be good at business.
Guess not, b/c none of you seem to understand that the current health care system and structure is not economically viable.
Forget the moral issue of health care for everyone.
Health care premiums are not sustainable.
scarecrow,
Is it kill time, in your opinion?
It’s “save the 30-50 million time.” If there is a “kill the bill” strategy that has a better chance of saving the millions, than some alternative, then fine. We’re all angry, but I’m not hearing a lot of winning strategies.
Jane’s House/Progressive block, which threatens to kill the bill unless . . . is such a strategy; it assumes the other side eventually blinks first and the WH uses whatever leverage it has to do something better. We’re not there yet.
Having said that, statements at this critical point that essentially give up and say, “well I guess we lost so suck it up, because it’s not so bad” are, uh, not helpful.
In my view, there is still a negotiation going on.
There is. But you’ll never win a negotiation until you’re willing to walk away, and no one will believe you’re willing to walk away, unless you threaten to do so unless x, y, and z, happen and then when they don’t you do, in fact, walk away. No one thinks the progressives will walk away, because of all the compromising they’ve done. The only thing to do now is to issue a threat, and if they leaugh, walk away. Don’t worry, they’ll be back in short order with a new deal. Because Obama, the Leadership, and the Blue Dogs are really the ones who can’t afford to walk away.
But, scarecrow, You and I have gone round and round on this a few times before. And each time we do, you’re position of “we’ve not yet reached that point,” is facing a worse and worse reality. Are you ready to concede yet, that it’s because you didn’t draw a line in the sand and stick with it, way back last June, or the many other times you’ve swallowed a degradation in hcr reform proposals?
Ah, insulting as usual, premised on willful misunderstanding what I wrote. Jane’s blocking, “walk away” strategy has been in effect since June and is still in effect, but if it makes you feel better to blame me (me???) for the condition of the health reform bills, fine.
i think you are seeing insults where they don’t exist, and if not objectively, at least certainly by current fdl standards. (and what’s with the “as usual”? dissent, even strong dissent is not an insult — there have been plenty, way too many imo, really awful insults thrown around lately. but not by you or lets).
disclaimer: no insult intended to anyone.
the thing is that we’ve already passed one trigger for the blocking strategy when the house voted to pass their bill and those 60 (?) members of the cpc who had promised to vote against anything not including their latest version of “robust” ignored their commitment (i actually spoke directly to my rep, jim mcgovern, about it so i know there was no confusion on what was promised). kinda hurts our credibility going forward.
Jane Hamsher up
http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/
Wondering why Liarman does not put up an amendment that backs up what he has said he wants right here
http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/12/15/taking-care-of-almost-seniors/#comments
Lieberman is one smug asshol
Sam Stein
stein@huffingtonpost.com | HuffPost Reporting
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Lieberman Closer To Supporting Reform, But Not There Yet
“The first is that in 2000, the federal government was in surplus and paying off the debt, not having increased the debt enormously. Secondly, Medicare wasn’t on the verge of imminent bankruptcy, which it is now. And third, there was not a bill on the floor such as the one on the floor now, that would extend very generous subsidies to those 55- and 65-year-olds to enable them to buy insurance and reduce the impact of age in the pricing of insurance policies. So things changed a lot..”
This liars votes increased the debt by billions. This man is the creepiest liar of all.
[Modnote: please link to source, thank you.]
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/15/moveon-holding-emergency_n_392668.html
MoveOn Holding Emergency Rally At White House Over Health Care
Thanks Scarecrow for a great post, as always.
However, I remain in despair over the multiple options enumerated above; none are to my liking in the midst of all my competing values and don’t comprehend the certainties of what is right among the alternative courses now or in the near or longer term future. Perhaps my ambivalence, beyond rage and grief, is an expression of an actual moral ambiguity. Put simply: I want the most and best for the oppressed at the earliest possible date and with no payoff for the oppressor now or ever. So, I can ask rhetorically, is that really too much to ask?
Thanks to all who continue the good fight(s), the clear analyses and prophetic proclamations that call us to justice and mercy.
Blessings,
Why is tort reform not in the democratic bill??? Tort Reform would be a great way to reduce medical costs. Not only would it reduce the cost of malpractice insurance, it would reduce the threat of major lawsuits. Doctors today are over prescribing procedures just to avoid any possible of being sued down the road. That is resulting in a huge increase in health care costs. Why is it not in the Democratic bill? Just ask Howard Dean, he said it loud and clear. Here is the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdpVY-cONnM
Case closed. The Dems are getting too much money from the lawyers.
Multiple studies have indicated that tort reform would cause only a minute savings, not some massive effect.
What is wrong with minute savings? But I don’t believe the savings would be minute. I’ve had a couple of discussions with doctors who believe the impact will be substantial. It only makes sense. They both admit that they over prescribe in order to avoid any potential malpractice suits in the future. No, the savings would be substantial. And the sole reason why it isn’t being proposed is the fact that lawyers are paying the politicians. It all comes down to money.
Actually I am in favor of voting all politicans out of office and imposing term limits. Our founding fathers never anticipated career politicans.
So your evidence that tort reform is worth discussing (obviously, by definition, reforming anything is a good idea, don’t get me wrong) is that you’ve gotten anecdotal opinions from a few isolated physicians?
Tort reform is nibbling around the edges. Healthcare should be an element of our national infrastructure, not some quasi-widget that companies get to market instead of deliver. A root canal is not a stereo. I don’t get one because my living room is too quiet. I get one because I have to. But corporations are tools for profit. They don’t DO anything unless they have to, and medical corporations have found all sorts of ways to maximize their profits that, at this point, have very little to do with quality of service.
To suggest that the best way to reform the healthcare system is to leave everything the way it is EXCEPT make it harder for patients to bring lawsuits is insanity, plain and simple.
Tort reform is a major way to reduce cost. And so in interstate competition. Did you check the link I posted from Governer Dean? Is this ethical? Tort reform is obviously a major issue, its just common sense. It isn’t anecdotal info, it is just plain common sense. If you were a doctor, you would do everything you could do to avoid damaging lawsuits. That means over prescribing. And the bill doesn’t even mention this. Why? MONEY.
I’m sure tort reform will have a major effect because you keep saying so. And it IS anecdotal, not “common sense”. Yes, assertions can seem sensible at first glance that turn out to not be true.
“do everything you could do to avoid damaging lawsuits. That means over prescribing. And the bill doesn’t even mention this.”
Actually, the last version I saw did mention tort reform: it denied federal funding to any States that dared try it.
Yes, and where does that money come from in swaying the folks in Congress? Does it come from people like you and I?
Or does it come come from Wall Street?
Do you imagine the folks on Wall Street approach health care reform with an “independent mind”.
No, they don’t give a shit about “principles”, about ideas or ideals. They give a shit about making as much money as they possibly can reducing healthcare choices down to just another commodity in the marketplace.
There’s a reason no other democratic republic around the globe has adopted this morally obscene “social compact” with its citizens. And that is because these citizens are not brainwashed to go along with it. They are not brainwashed to believe that every single facet of their life is their own responsibility. That, if they can’t provide for their family’s healthcare needs [because, for example, they lost their job] it’s all their own damn fault. That, collectively, together, through the government, they don’t have social obligations to help each other get through tough times.
It’s a scam the rich and powerful in the health care industrial complex [including their enablers in Washington]have been foisting on the knee jerk dittoheads for decades now.
View the link at #189
Very true, but those societies were murderous or murdered, and didn’t wake up until 100 million-plus had died in two wars.
anyone in D.C.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/15/moveon-holding-emergency_n_392668.html
MoveOn Holding Emergency Rally At White House Over Health Care
Mark my words:
If this monster passes, this odious Administration will become so emboldened, that they will start privatizing everything good and public, from schools, through structures, highways, and parks; with an eye out for Soc. Security.
If you want to live as serfs in private Fiefdoms of the United Corporations of America; let this bill pass.
Proving once again “corporations rule the U.S.”
If they pass a mandate, don’t abide by it, don’t pay the mandate penalties. A consumer-driven tax-holiday.
Brand it, and control the messaging.
The mandate is a parasite, a cancer on a bill without a PO.
I’m aware of this, and said as much back in May when I noted that this circus would arrive just like we’re seeing today: Individual Mandate? Not Without a Public Option You Don’t
You’ll note in the comments under the name ImperialFlow; this specific condition of mutually assured partisan victory at our expense was my primary concern.
That doesn’t change the fact that if they pass a mandate, we can organize a rebuke of it with our Dollars.
Senate Democrats Now Meeting with Pres. Obama
Today
Pres. Obama has invited Senate Democrats and the two independents – Sen. Lieberman (I-CT) and Sen. Sanders (I-VT) – to the White House for a discussion on passing the Senate health bill. After the meeting, votes on amendments are expected at 6pm ET
Obama “I got to have something anything before the holiday break”
OK guys, I”m leaving. I might check back once in awhile. I have just gotten a better insight into the liberal mind. And what did I find there?? Nothing. Thank god only 20% of americans identify themselves as liberal. And 47% conservative.
Have a nice day.
I appreciate your thoughtful and thorough responses to my statements.
What do we do. 1.Draft a letter to DNC and inform them you no longer want to receive correspondence. 2.Contact Harry Reid’s office verifying your dissatisfaction.3. Contact progressive representatives and ask them to kill this monster. If this bill passes it will be a disaster and every republican will pin this to the sleeve of every progressive politician and person for the foreseeable future.
Welcome to K Street 2.0
What did we expect would happen with hundreds of millions in corporate political contributions from one end of the federal government to the other?
Even if we had a voice like this in America, the MSM would deliberately ignore it and instead cover runaway balloon boys, teabagger outrage against the fascist in the White House and Tiger’s mistresses.
Didn’t FDL get pledges from progressive members of Congress that they will not vote for a public option less bill? Time to call in the pledges?
Jane on it
http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/12/15/time-to-hold-progressives-in-congress-to-their-promise/
They want to hear what you hear
You don’t think the 30 million are going to get anything from this bill, do you? Except more bankruptcies, that is.
This is exactly the opposite of what Dean was saying before Liarman did his ego- maniacal insurance whoop ass dance
The Plum LineGreg Sargent’s blog
Howard Dean: “Kill The Senate Bill”
http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/health-care/howard-dean-kill-the-senate-bill/
In a blow to the bill grinding through the Senate, Howard Dean bluntly called for the bill to be killed in a pre-recorded interview set to air later this afternoon, denouncing it as “the collapse of health care reform in the United States Senate,” the reporter who conducted the interview tells me.
Dean said the removal of the Medicare buy-in made the bill not worth supporting, and urged Dem leaders to start over with the process of reconciliation in the interview, which is set to air at 5:50 PM today on Vermont Public Radio, political reporter Bob Kinzel confirms to me.
The gauntlet from Dean — whose voice on health care is well respsected among liberals — will energize those on the left who are mobilizing against the bill, and make it tougher for liberals to swallow the emerging compromise. In an excerpt Kinzel gave me, Dean says:
“This is essentially the collapse of health care reform in the United States Senate. Honestly the best thing to do right now is kill the Senate bill, go back to the House, start the reconciliation process, where you only need 51 votes and it would be a much simpler bill.”
Anyone a quick outline of the top 5 good, and 5 bad things that would come from reconciliation?
a thought from zerohedge:
“This is the second time in a week that a bill auction has closed at exactly 0%. The Treasury has auctioned off $57 billion since December which is yielding absolutely nothing. Surely, this can go on forever. In fact, can the US reverse roll all of its $7 trillion in marketable securities in the form of 1 months? That would surely help the deficit as no interest has to be paid by the US. Ever.“
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One more comment about healthcare. Nobama will get his bill. It will be severely diluted and both the left and the right will not be happy. Nobama will praise it like its a huge achievement. It isn’t. He has totally mishandled this entire issue and I think even you libs know that. Passing a 2,000 page bill before it was even written is just plain stupid. Nobody read it, they just passed it. Same with the senate bill.
He should have worked with republicans and gotten a bill that both sides could be happy with. He didn’t do that. He relied on pelosi to write the congressional bill, big mistake. He wasn’t able to explain the bill to the american people. The american people do not want this bill. The polls are solidly against the bill.
So he’ll get a bill shoved down our throats and anyone who supported it will be likely voted out of office. Good bye Harry!! You are a piece of pelosi.
Deans “Kill the Bill” going viral
Good post!
I thought the same thing when I saw Sherrod Brown and Ron Wyden try and put a good face on a bill — void of public option and Medicare buy-in — that will do NOTHING to lower costs, but will increase profits for the insurance industry.
I lost a lot of respect for those two. Especially, when reconciliation is still available as a last resort.
They talk about how Insurance Companies won’t be able to deny coverage anymore. So what?! They’ll just recoup those lost profits (from insuring the sick) by raising premiums on those who are well and don’t get sick.
Everything they are passing is just one work-around for the insurance industry. They will lose a bit on this end, so they can just recoup over here on this other end.
It’s like the government saying to the Telcos “you can no longer charge this eronious fee to subscribers.” So the Telco just ditches that fee, creates a new fee with a new name, and levies that instead. The whole thing is a farce…
Believe it or not Joe Lieberman is saving the democrats from Obama’s incompetence. The bill is horrible, nothing more than a get rich card for pharma and insurance companies. That is why it wont go into effect until after Obama’s reelection. Forcing us to buy insurance from the same companies that are bleeding us is insane and preventing people from buying cheaper medicine is criminal.
To everyone,
Dean is calling to Kill the Bill so this is what I am going to do in the House and the Senate!
Also there are Libertarians/ Rightwingers gearing up to take the Individual Mandates to court, we have 3-4 years to overturn them. Get together with one of those groups and pitch in for the legal battle!
I will NOT buy a Private Health Insurance policy!!!
Dr. Lora, Chicago
It’s not just Joe Lieberman. Obama selected Lieberman as his mentor in the Senate in 2005 and has since then protected him from having his Senate chairmanship stripped away.
The AP reports the close relationship between Lieberman and Obama:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jr7_y43SV4_fE6Gesqop2iClXGjwD9CK28580
Scarecrow, the fact that Obama calls Lieberman “brother” should tell you that the problem is not just Joe Lieberman. It’s the guy in the White House who enables Joe and who enables Rahm.
Here, send a message to traitor Joe Lieberman demanding he help enact a strong single payer public option into law.
http://bit.ly/traitorjoe
Forget the e-mail campaign. Our problem is that we communicate instead of demonstrate. This game’s already over. What we should have done is organize a massive, day-after-day, non-stop protest march in D.C. Put a half-million people on the mall every damn day that Congress is in session, then have similar supporting demonstrations in every major city. Sit-in. Block traffic. Do what the civil rights marchers did in Selma and Birmingham and Memphis, etc. Only THEN will we get the government we should have.
We need to shut down the economic engines that are in our strongholds: the cities. The loss of profit is the one thing they understand.
Ah tole yew so.
kill.this.bill
Removing the Mandate is a win-win for everyone.
After the removal of the public option, the mandate is what is making this bill worse than nothing. Without the mandate, no one is forced into buying from a bunch of thieves, Americans are no longer locked into health care through insurance corporations and the Democratic party wont be blamed for every death dealing lousy con the health insurance corporations play.
They could put the mandate on a trigger. If Americans start abusing the health insurance corporations, and the corporations can prove 30% of their customers are waiting until the last minute and causing undue loss in profits, then the trigger would kick in. Or just add the mandate later if problems come up.
Remove the mandate, pass the legislation, and President Obama and the Democratic party can do a happy dance and claim they have health care reform.
Then through reconciliation expand Medicare for all.
It’s a win-win for everyone. The health insurance corporations still get some new customers from people who use the subsidies. The Democratic party can pretend to have done health care reform. The Republicons can claim they stopped socialized medicine. And Americans aren’t getting a worse system and are getting a few tidbits of improvement.
Then using reconciliation pass Medicare for all.
What is the point of all the hand wringing and crying if that is all most of us are willing to do ? They can`t pass this bs if 5 million people show up around the senate building in DC.On the other hand if all we are going to do is blog or accept it,why should they give a f@#k ? The power is ours..if we use it !! The time for action is NOW.
Carl Levin is one of my senators. He also is a very good friend of Lieberman. I e-mailed Levin to ask for his support for Ned Lamont, who had won the Conneticut primary, and it was then that Levin told me that he and Joe were such good friends that they ate lunch together every day. Every day. How grand. I pointed out that the Senate was not a “social club” and that he should back Lamont who had won the people’s vote. That did not mean a damn thing to Levin because he was going to back Lieberman no matter what. Now, I am busy trying to get through to Levin (his phone line is busy, busy, busy) to tell him to vote NO on this B.S. they tell me is “healthcare reform”.
To me, this all comes down to Obama and Emanuel. They gave up single payer on day one without any prodding and it all went down hill from there. Obama thinks if he can get a bill passed, he can call it “reform” and no one will be the wiser. I guess he forgot what happened when John McCain put Palin on the ticket to pick up all those Hillary voters.
At this point it looks like the insurance companies are the big winners, just like the banks, Big Pharma and all the other “bigs” thanks to Obama and Emanuel. We got a democrat as president and majorities in both houses, and we still cant get a damn thing for the people. If this is not a betrayal, I don’t know what is! And because of this, you will see the dems losing a bunch of seats real soon. At one time I really thought that the time had come to right some of the wrongs in this country. Man was I wrong! To be honest, I wish I could take my vote back.
I’ll send my e-mail to the white house…
If the mandate is included I’ll vote green forever.
DEMOCRACY IS DEAD. LONG LIVE CORPORATOCRACY.