It’s predictable that news reports of the apparent "split" between Catholic Bishops and Catholic Nuns/Hospitals would be portrayed as a good omen that might make it easier for Congress to find a way out of the dilemma it created when the House and Senate adopted competing restrictions on insurance coverage for abortions.
Per the New York Times:
In an apparent split with Roman Catholic bishops over the abortion-financing provisions of the proposed health care overhaul, the nation’s Catholic hospitals have signaled that they back the Senate’s compromise on the issue, raising hopes of breaking an impasse in Congress and stirring controversy within the church.
The Senate bill, approved Thursday morning, allows any state to bar the use of federal subsidies for insurance plans that cover abortion and requires insurers in other states to divide subsidy money into separate accounts so that only dollars from private premiums would be used to pay for abortions.
Just days before the bill passed, the Catholic Health Association, which represents hundreds of Catholic hospitals across the country, said in a statement that it was “encouraged” and “increasingly confident” that such a compromise “can achieve the objective of no federal funding for abortion.” An umbrella group for nuns followed its lead.
The same day, the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops called the proposed compromise “morally unacceptable.”
The divide frames one of the most contentious issues facing House and Senate negotiators as they try to produce a bill that can pass in both chambers.
Father, forgive me, for I am not a believer, let alone a Catholic, but . . .
It is disheartening to learn that the debate is about how best to restrict access to abortion; it’s between whether to drive insurance covering it out of exchange markets through economic pressure and harrassment (House) or through state opt-out prohibitions sanctioned by federal statute (Senate). The middle ground between those two unconcionable, radical extremes is still unconcionable and radically extreme.
All but forgotten, the legal/Constitutional ground, as established by a once sane Supreme Court, is that the right to an abortion can only be restricted under very limited state interests that expand only in later trimesters. That supreme law and common sense approach apparently have no place in today’s debate, because if they did, the correct response would be that there should be no unwarranted restrictions on abortion access arising from the federal government’s subsidies or any other efforts to help woman avoid undue economic harm or discrimination for seeking legal and necessary health care.
How did we get to the point where the accepted range of political debate is between what the Catholic Bishops will demand before allowing elected officials the Sacraments and what the Catholic Nuns/Hospitals will demand as the condition for accepting federal subsidies in their efforts to remain competitive?
Where is there a John Kennedy telling these dogmatists they have no right to tell elected officials how to vote? And where are the elected officials with sufficient courage to proclaim they have no obligation to accept their church’s direction in matters of state?
But not to worry. Only 5 of the 6 current Catholic Justices of the Supreme Court are conservative, and they will ensure that the First Amendment’s establishment clause, and the penumbra right to privacy remain inviolate. Or not.



70 Comments







Where the FUCK is separation of Church and State??? Keep the fucking religious assholes out of my Government! They seem to think it is just fucking fine to force their morals, beliefs etc on our Government. I saw revoke all churches from be tax exempt!! They have plenty of money and we “The People” need to have some of that helping to pay for our Government!!
Recommended!
Thanks for bringing up Kennedy; those were the days, when people were properly suspicious of church leaders meddling in public policy. Personally, I think it’s insane that a church has gotten a hold of so much of our health care system; they should be forced to divest themselves of this lucrative business if they don’t stop this unconstitutional bullying.
Well, I think there are a few out there, including at least one Kennedy and, I believe, a Kerry, that are dealing with this problem in the way we expect them to. However, I think you are right, that what Catholic Bishops don’t seem to realize is what they are really saying is that Catholics should not be allowed to hold office and that they really should not be allowed to own and run hospitals or otherwise meddle in politics. I believe that they’ve gotten a lot cockier lately since they seem to have found common cause with Protestant sects that also don’t mind trying to impose their beliefs on the rest of the populace.
This is certainly not what I was taught in Catholic grade school or Catholic High School, when the church was much more concerned about the rest of the populace trying to impose their beliefs on them. I remember being told by the nuns in grade school that the church did not approve of the government providing any tuition money to the schools or to the parents of Catholic school students for tuition. The indication was that they feared taking money from the government would mean also taking instructions from the government on teaching religion in their schools. They wanted no part of that! Maybe it’s time to remind the Catholic church how it felt to have others trying to impose their morality on church members. Maybe they need to be reminded of a time when Catholics were treated with contempt just because they were Catholic. They seem to have forgotten.
My view is declare war on the Catholic Church, we seem to have no trouble declaring war on little countries.
This one might actually save the world.
I don’t want no poop, I mean pope telling me what to do.
I’ve always wondered why no one ever seems to think of the establishment clause with respect to abortion; it’s clearly a matter of religion as much as, of not more than, one of health.
I realize the justices didn’t want to go there then, but this is getting close to a government establishment of religious views, and it does need to be stopped.
And Catholic Bishops are dictating end-of-life issues at all Catholic hospitals???
Bishops can rule over US law? Bishops writing laws? WTF? HELP!!!
I love (not) the way they think they can speak for everyone, including non-Christians. I hope there is an afterlife, because they really are on the way to earning a spot somewhere they won’t like. Probably a very warm place, but maybe one of the cold spots it has.
A really toasty place.
Catholic Church = NAMBLA
Go spew your bigoted crap somewhere else, please.
bigoted? How so? The bishops and high ranking officials in the Catholic Church protected and enabled pedophiles until they were caught. And now they want to force religious law on the rest of America. Those are facts.
You.
Equating all Catholics with pedophiles. Which is clearly false.
Did I say Catholics? I said the Catholic Church. The institution. Excuse my language, but learn to f’n read. I’m equating the Catholic Church with NAMBLA, and many of the people who work for the Church are pedophiles. And if they are not pedophiles themselves, they are aiding and abetting them. That is a fact.
That is false? Have you been living in a cave on mars with your eyes shut and your fingers in your ears for the past 15 years? You are clearly delusional.
Repeating: you’re an effing bigot, and please go away. And take your crap with you.
[Modnote: you both have made your points, please disengage.]
The truth hurts buddy. The Church is filled with little boy loving priests and their protectors. And strangely enough it is headed by a man who dresses like a queen but used to be a Nazi.
Narcissists get energy from attention.
They fill up the threads with noise.
Ignore them. Don’t waste your beautiful mind..
rare point of agreement.
To be fair, didn’t they condone and cover up the abuse of girls in Ireland?
I love it when people talk about how good the Church is in other ways. Undocumented immigrants cannot buy insurance on the exchange – they claimed to be against that. And yes, they do have good policies towards immigrants.
But will they draw a line in the sand like they do with abortion? Hell no. Just like those who support war and the death penalty, or oppose energy reform (the Church also claims to be concerned about global warming) still get communion.
As soon as they start being consistent, they will get my respect.
Someone made a comment the other day about writs of mandamus.
If one of the Lawyers or one of the smarties knows, would it be possible to compel the IRS to remove their tax exempt status for their active involvement politics, as well as non-delivery of, or interference with publicly funded services?
This is damaging to our secular society, and is unravelling our constitutionally protected rights.
Even if Barack Obama has issued a signing statement excusing them from violating our civil rights, can we excuse them from public funding as a separate matter?
NYC Atheists were going to be joined by a R.C. priest to file a lawsuit against a Brooklyn bishop who made robocalls in favor of a political candidate, that his diocese should lose its tax exempt status. Suit was supposed to be filed on 12/24 but I don’t see anything about it on the website, so I suppose it never happened. Sigh.
That priest on on “retreat” in the basement of the Vatican.
The priest in question was supposed to be joining the lawsuit because he’s very upset about how the R.C.s handled the pedophile scandal. And yes, I suppose he was “offered” a retreat to the catacombs.
The Catholic Church is sooo moral.
That is why, when the Pope recently welcomed the envoy from Uganda, he conveniently ignored Uganda’s imminent new anti-gay legislation.
Whatever would we do without their spiritual leadership and guidance?
http://leliorisen.blogspot.com/2009/12/pope-praises-uganda-ignores-anti-gay.html
I understand the frustration of several posters above, but anti Catholic bigotry is still bigotry, although because of abortion and several issues related to sexual morality, still acceptable on the left. Check out The Catholic Church’s position on economic and social ethics, however, in the latest social encyclical “Caritas in Veritate.” You may find it to be one of the most coherent statements made recently covering every aspect of a very progressive approach to economic and social ethics. At least if you can open up your mind enough to accept the basic premise that “God exists, and wants us to love one another.” I think He’d also assert that it is His will that we not kill or hurt each other over disagreements about what His will is.
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20090629_caritas-in-veritate_en.html
I agree that unthinking bigotry is unacceptable; it’s not the goal here. And there are clearly progressive social doctrines that should be applauded, whether or not one accepts the faith.
Yes.
I get ticked off that the protestants who want to enshrine their views in law, just as much as at the other religions that want their views protected, but no one else’s.
It seems to be a fundamentalist/conservative thing: they’re afraid of all other views. Maybe it’s because they know, in their hearts, that they can’t forever hold people against their wills, and that the more liberal viewpoints will win out.
There is no current institution in whose name more evil has been done than the Church of Rome. That’s an historical fact you can look up. It’s not bigotry to oppose the Pope and his minions; it’s a healthy survival instinct for some of us.
Hear! Hear! I agree. Arduously.
That is quite true !
I have absolutely no faith in organized religion
.
If I may play devil’s advocate for a moment that is partly due to the RC’s longevity. I’m confident they’ve made some positive contributions although I fail to see how it could possibly balance out.
I find their opposition to gender equality most troubling. The church’s stance on reproductive issues is a fundamental expression of that opposition. Not only do they oppose abortion but they oppose prevention of unintentional pregnancies. Contraception accomplished more to empower women than any other invention in history and a male dominated religious institution would like nothing more than to put that genie back in the bottle.
So, as a basic tenet they believe that half the human race is not entitled to the same degree of self-determination as the other half. In light of that, their discrimination against the LGBT community (and others) seems almost like an afterthought.
on edit: wow, talk about an overstatement of the painfully obvious (d’oh!)
error
Yes, God provides so well for all those little ones who the Pope, in his infallibility, determines must be born due to the sinfulness of contraception. Nevermind that HIV is your benevolent and just God’s punishment on the innocent children, I’m sure the Catholic Church has an adequate (to your mind, at least) explanation lurking in “the most coherent statements made recently covering every aspect of a very progressive approach to economic and social ethics”.
Any organization that sits on wealth untold while its congregants starve while professing to follow the teachings of Christ is a blatant fraud. These are very congregants who are starving as a result of the Church’s “very progressive approach to economic and social ethics” in the first place? But anyone who makes obviously true observations about YOUR corrupt church is a “Bigot”? I am so tired of anyone and everyone claiming that they are persecuted, when in reality it is they and their’s who are doing the judging and the persecuting of any who will not subjugate themselves to their beliefs.
The Catholic Church should keep it’s nose out of government and vice versa. Same thing applies to other churches. We don’t want to hear from you on anything! You would think the Catholic Church would have enough to keep them busy, with all the pedophiles they have working for them! Take care of your own self made problems and leave us alone.
yep.
For me, this means I will no longer vote for any candidate that is Roman Catholic nor support any judicial nominee that is Roman Catholic. Fair’s Fair.
Seems not fair and prejudiced to me.
Eh. It’s a private organization. If someone was part of a country club that discriminated against women and gays, there wouldn’t be any disagreement on whether or not that was politically unacceptable.
Yet, if you are a member of a *religious* organization that is discriminatory and actively campaigns against women’s rights, gay rights and the like, liberal voters are supposed to ignore it. Worse yet, if you’re in this group but make wishy-washy public statements about how you’re a ‘moderate’ and disagree with them (but not enough to leave), we on the Left are supposed to reach out with praise and support.
As an Atheist regarding religions, I they’re all batshit insane, but at least some of their Imaginary Friend In the Sky Clubs aren’t actively working against my political values and principles.
On a lighter note, I still remember the day I got a full ride offer from Liberty University’s law school (shortly after my LSAT scores came back). Ave Maria too, as I recall. I laughed so hard when I put those in the trash where they rightfully belong.
Religious orgs are also exempt from all kinds of other laws. For example, religious child care facilities are not required to have the same safeguards as secular ones. A megachurch in Boulder CO was allowed exemptions from comprehensive zoning laws that prohibited any structure or complex as large as the one the church built.
And that leaves out the elephant in the room, their tax exempt status. Sure, other groups that actively seek to influence the legislative process get taxed. I can’t tax-deduct the money I give to the ACLU. But a Church? Look at the Council of Bishops in this HCR debate. They all but wrote the Stupak language themselves and it was cleared with them at every step of the way. Legislators have gone on the record in interviews to that effect.
Yet, their tax exemption is perfectly secure.
I covered the tax exempt part in 51. Was just trying to illustrate that the problem is much larger.
Ah yes, so you did. Sorry.
That one always bugs me. I wanted to set up a small nonprofit once, but one look at the IRS stuff on it scared me straight. On the other hand, if I had wanted to set up a church and get tax-exemption, it would have been smooth sailing.
Atheism is expensive sometimes.
I didn’t consider a candidate’s religion before but if the Roman Catholic Church is going to dictate policies for our government, then I will do my very small part in fighting that. That’s not bigotry that’s protecting the Constitution
Oh and the way the Catholic Church treats homosexuals is not bigoted? I repeat: you are deluded.
[Modnote: you both have made your points, please disengage.]
This is just plain weird.
Since when does Washington pay any attention to the Catholic Bishops?
They are FOR immigrants’ rights, against capital punishment, were against the Iraq war.
For some reason, they get all kinds of attention for the one thing which has been politically useful for mostly the Right for some time now.
My first reaction exactly: this is weird. Why is Congress suddenly worried about pleasing the Catholic Bishops? Bizarre behavior. If Teddy were with us he would say not to bow to what the Bishops say.
Bowing to a bishop can be a pain in the butt.
We all have aspects of our lives which are sensitive. It is a waste of time to put words in other people’s mouths. It’s happens sometimes. Religion and Sexuality (Not Food, though) tend to bring out the bark in all of us.
Mod says back down. It’s wise to do so.
It would be irresponsible for true fiscal conservatives not to question
the need for the Church’s tax exempt status.
I’ll get slammed for this. But the current Catholic church is nothing more than mass institionalized psychosis. The hypocrisy is unbearable and unsustainable.
And to think they have a major role in the US health care reform debate and delivery of services is very frightening.
Dr.Rick Lippin
Spiritual Humanist
I agree absolutely and entirely.
Who’s slammin’? I doubt it.
I do like the stained glass windows, though. I have an authentic mahogney Choir Bench in my dining room which I love.
It was 1932 and there was no such thing as a legal abortion, and as I understand it the Church would have us not have access to abortion now too. In 1932 my father was ten years old, his brother was 12 and his sister was 8 and his mother was pregnant again with yet another child. She had a backstreet abortion which led to infection and death. This was a tragedy for my father and for his father an unemployed storewindow designer. All kids had to go to live with their aunts and uncles until my grandfather overcame his depression and tuberculosis. There was no safety net except for your kinfolk. If my grandmother had had access to an antiseptic abortion in a hospital these children would have had a mother and I believe would have grown up to be more trusting, less fearful, less selfish and egocentric people. I have made a family map and I can see how my grandmother’s death when my Dad was 10 really reverberated in my father’s, my uncle’s and my aunt’s lives. No child should ever have to suffer that kind of loss because a parent cannot afford to bear another child or to have access to and to pay for a safe abortion. For me, the above story, is a FACT. No one can convince me that a woman should not have reproductive rights over her own body and no one can ever convince me that safe accessible and affordable abortions should not be a woman’s right too.
Great argument !
In NYC the Catholic Church has been controlling and repressing sex education in the PUBLIC SCHOOLS of NYC for a hundred years. They are well schooled in controlling the limits of public policy.
This sad /tragic fact is only outdone by the fact that access to abortion has been functionally restricted for poor and rural women due to lack of infrastructure, funds or social influence in possibly 2/3rds of the states.
So much for abortion being “LEGAL”!!!!! The good part is now we actually ‘SEE” it thru the machinations of this health bill.
Rack Focus. Yep, there it is.
Keep the church outta my politics , damn it !
Barbara Boxer needs to be shown the fucking door to the back alley.
Not this time. The R candidate is way too scary and unprincipled.
Are you aware that the National Cathedral isn’t Catholic?
Yes, but the windows are beautiful, are they not?
Where is there a John Kennedy telling these dogmatists they have no right to tell elected officials how to vote? And where are the elected officials with sufficient courage to proclaim they have no obligation to accept their church’s direction in matters of state?
I disagree in part. With the first part. I think we all – dogmatists, secularists, believers, non-believers, all of us have every right to tell to tell elected officials how to vote.
The second part is true, of course.
OT
Starhawk on The March to Gaza
The Catholic church makes rules up as they go. Perhaps if they paid more attention to the pedophiles amongst them they would be onto something.
Book Salon up at the Mothership with Marian Brannan’s Twenty Remarkable Women Seen Through Their Handwriting hosted by Lisa Derrick
We need some Bishop tippers.
We have a Catholic Bandaid Station here to “serve” us (up). The premier service is a $16,000 helicopter ride to a hospital that has doctors and staff.
Superstitions do not belong in medicine. They can have a candle lighting station, but leave the medicine to someone with more than billing on their mind.
Isaiah 5:20 “Woe unto you that call evil good and good evil.”
God is against insurance, “surety.” Insurance is based on fear, not faith; it is the devil’s territory. “By faith are you saved.” (Saved from a trap and the bondage and disease it creates.) If you fear losing your health, (house, boat, car, child etc) you insure them. You have to deny God’s power and His promises including “by Christ’s stripes, you are healed” to accept insurance.
Insurance is counter productive. One of God’s laws is, “That which you fear shall come upon you.” Also, “That which you sow, you shall reap.” It requires that you receive (reap) a sickness etc. for which the insurance will pay. We cannot solve the health problem using what God hates.
God warned against debt, interest, insurance, seeking riches and honors, pride and vanity. Our whole national system and most of the world is anti-God; anti-God is evil. Only terror and 4 x 7 curses are pronounced by God against the nation that rejects His commandments and wisdom. UNTIL we turn to Him in truth. (Leviticus 26)
God’s way is freedom; the devil’s territory is force, oppression and compulsion. Compelling people to buy insurance works against God’s law. It forces people to help others and makes enemies instead of close friends. It adds extra costs. It creates a way for major corruptions and bribery. It also pays huge salaries etc for administration costs for those who scramble papers around and decide who gets how much. It pays profits to investors. It brings confusion and hatred for the government like the IRS program. That is not helping the poor; that is using the poor. Health Insurance and other insurance is evil. It denies that God is our source and our protection.
HEALTH CARE REFORM conforms to: “Psycho-Politics-Address on
Health Care and Control.” by LP Beria at Lenin University
(Says only Faith Healing through the Bible can stop
control of the people through health care.) AND
HEALTH CARE REFORM also conforms to “45 Communist Goals For the
Take Over of America.” (control of courts, media, education, medical fields.)
See both at http://www.divine-way.com
Marie Devine
http://www.divine-way.com
God has solutions to world problems we created by ignoring His wisdom.
God is a She… and often an idiot with a strange sense of humor.
It’s obvious that God is a womon at least the closest to the UNIVERSAL. Every divine manifestation has been the “Virgin Mary”, usually speaking to children…Fatima, Lourdes, Guadalupe, etc.
I once said this to a catholic friend and she was blown away.
I also have this sneaking suspicion that the entire takedown of the USA may have something to do with wimmin rising up here and the terrible fear this engenders in the patriarchal religions and cultures who have controlled us for so many millennia.
I wonder what the world would be today if the balance hadn’t been so distorted in favor of the violent males who run things?
My favorite event of the holiday season? When that womon took down “Pius”! I’ve been smiling about it ever since.
Of course, as with anyone against the “status quo” she is labeled “mentally disturbed”; just like Howard Dean was called “irrational” when he spoke about killing this so-called “health reform bill”.
I am aghast at the president allowing & escorting the Bishops to go beat up MY Congress for Stupak…in plain sight of the entire country. That alone is enough to declare this bill null and void IMO.
Back to the Dark Ages, my friends. These crows always show up when societies are failing.
While pro choice myself I can tolerate the opposite position when it is sincere like among those who adopt. But in the case of the Church, where is the concern for war, capital punishment or the welfare of children after they are born? Aren’t people a form of life or only fetuses? When they get their act together on these issues they might have a little more affect on the abortion debate.
This type of hypocrisy is among the many reasons I left the Church.
SS