If I understand Ms. Susan Collin’s position, she believes that if someone is caught in the United States trying to blow up an airplane with passengers aboard, that person should immediately be taken into military custody and be interrogated by intelligence officials in ways — not excluding torture — that would compel that person to provide "intelligence" about any other threats to public safety. I’m sure she’s not alone in that belief.
Since I can’t think of any logical reason why, once you’ve adopted this principle, it should be limited to foreigners or to those believed to be linked/sympathtic/similar to al Qaeda or only to those flying in from another country, Middle East or otherwise, or to traveling by plane vs bus/train/car or just walking . . . it would follow that Ms. Collins would also have supported applying the same procedures to lots of other people, including US citizens, apprehended after attempting bombings or shootings, or even after suspected attempts.
There are hundreds, perhaps thousands of such attempted killings every year/month in the United States, which means that what Ms. Collins is advocating is that the US military and CIA essentially take over a substantial portion of law enforcement responsibility in America. In that America, the Constitutional safeguards against injustice accorded those arrested for crimes would not apply, and the rules for treatment of those held in custody would presumably allow harsher means of interrogation, including measures some of us and much of the civilized world regard as torture.
That is the America Ms. Susan Collins finds acceptable, unless she can somehow explain how that’s not true.
So I guess I should not be surprised that Ms. Collins and her political friends have, so far, not expressed alarm that a Senior US intelligence official in the Obama Administration candidly admitted to Congress that the President of the United States can order the assassination of anyone, including an American citizen, even without arrest, trial or any other Constitutional safeguards, merely by deciding that person was a potential threat to American security . . . or, since there is no check on the President’s discretion, for any reason at all but just claiming such person was a threat.
I must say that the Ms. Collins of this country have the strangest views about what constitutes a threat to America and the American way of life. These people don’t seem to have any moral limits when dealing with those they fear, don’t believe in the rule of law or the criminal justice system, have no regard for American (or English) history or traditions, and believe in what can only be described as state-sponsored murder and torture, that is, in all the things we associate with "terrorism."
And they don’t seem to care that these actions all fit the definition of a state sponsor of terror and thus fit all the conditions by which any other nation’s people applying the same logic as Ms. Collins would feel justified in killing Americans.
I’d really like to understand how America’s Ms. Collins explain all this, and more important, how they think we ever get out of this trap, but I don’t think they can.
More:
Marcy Wheeler, Assassination Permission Slips and Hall Passes
Glenn Greenwald, On the Claimed "War Exception" to the Constitution
Sam Stein, Republicans now attacking FBI



42 Comments




Kinda makes you proud, doesn’t it? /s
I think that’s the whole point. We aren’t SUPPOSED to ever get out. It just keeps going in perpetuity.
It’s not Susan Collins “View of America” that’s manifested itself recently…It’s more about her bruised pride….She comes out Saturday, guns blazing against Obama….By Tuesday, it’s clear that the minority leader for homeland security (Susan Collins) was totally clueless about how this terrorist interrogation was executed..On Wednesday, she had no choice but to double down on ‘wolf-tickets’….By Thursday, she had made all the rounds. Unfortunately, Susan Collins picked the wrong time and the wrong event to show her GOP fangs. She trying to continue to blast away because she can’t afford to say: “I jumped the shark on this”…Not as a scorned minority leader in a male dominated club (the Senate)…Certainly not as a scorned leader in a male dominated focus area (Homeland Security)…By next week, I would not be surprised if Collins will be approaching the “Dick Cheney level”. Obama would be wise to pick up the phone, call her and make her feel better. The Whitehouse should deflate this. She’ll get louder to avoid “losing face” with the good ‘ol boys.
Don’t you realize, Susan, that your BFF Joey has shivved you? Something about that 41st Senator and all. L’il Joey needs to get his power back…. wheels within wheels, intrigues within intrigues…. /s
Senator Collins is a scary woman.
And commence the countdown of the [individuals] who will come and comment “You just don’t understand how life is in this post 9/11 world”
In 5, 4, 3, …
I thought Republics wanted all interrogations to be handled by Larry King.
No, that was just an example; they’d also allow Sean Hannity.
Of course, none of that would ever apply to her and her family and friends. DFHs, on the other hand …. /s
Obama would be wise not to call her.
Holding her hand is guaranteed to make her feel even more correct in her views.
Either we all have rights or none of us do
Didn’t we used to have a Constitution?
Yeh, we used to.
I seem to remember something about that from my high school civics class, but it was secondary to that teacher’s main message, which was “Vote Republican.” I don’t know how I even passed that course.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came...
Glen Beck and Jonah Goldberg will not be calling Sen Collins a Nazi for her lock them all up policies. But notice death camps for healthcare, gun owners etc etc it seems the Lizard brains are projecting again.
But we have always been against torture, the death penalty, prison as run by the GOP rehabilitative value our record on Camps of any kind is well documented we are against them.
They however can’t seem to get enough.
you don’t understand how lifeless is this post 9/11 world
There’e no joy nor love nor constitutional rights
No birth certitude..
Well then, aren’t we lucky Susan Collins isn’t President and her party doesn’t control CONgress. See how much difference it’s made?
This is abandonment of Rule of Law, Due Process and Presumed Innocent.
Welcome to the Devine Right of Kings, and the Middle Ages.
Ms. Collins is Maineack and show many symptoms of living in Maine FBC syndrome( FROZEN Brain cells)… I sure hope my old neighbors come to their senses next time this witch is up for election… Ahyup get rid of this Witch… She IS as Cold as a Witches Tit ya know ahhyup..
If we were all created by God Sen Collins then we all have certain unalienable Rights like life, liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/
Guess who is the Despot now Collins? You the GOP the Blue Dogs and the Corporations. Fascism is Government working with the Corporations its not what Glen Beck says it is.
Constitution??? Aw that is just some piece of paper written a long long time ago in another Galaxy.
David Dayen has a fresh cross-post available: Shelby Gambit Highlights Need for Changes To Senate Rules
You missed the most awful part of it.
It’s all for scoring political points.
Yes, I see your difference, and raise you “let’s not look backward, only forward.” /s
Good commentary all around. It would be nice if US citizens, even CONgress, grew up, but that’ll never happen. Sadly, terrorism is a fact of life around our planet. Not nice, not fun, but there it is. I have no doubt that there will be future terrorist attempts on US soil in the future, no matter which branch of our one party-system is putatively “in charge.”
Collins’ kind of irresponsible stupidity does nothing but encourage terrorists to attack, but then again, IMO that appears to be what the corporatist oligarch’s want. It creates fear in the authoritarian base, which makes them more easily manipulated (eg, where’s the birf certifikat?), while enabling War, Inc., to make loads of $$$$$ for the plutocrats. Your tax dollars from your wallets to their war chests, and hooray for our side. USA, USA, USA…
and so on… Why anyone ever thought that Collins was some kind of “moderate” or willing to be bipartisan is beyond me (same goes for Snowe). Eh – she’s showed her hand. Now we know for sure. Next??
Politically why is she pushing this issue are her voters for it? Is she getting paid if so by whom? Is she paranoid?
While there is a lower class I am in it; while there is a criminal element I am of it; while there is a soul in prison, I am not free ~Eugene Debs
Have you priced the “cost” of “justice” lately?
I think most Americans would be surprised to discover that they can’t afford it. On the personal level.
You still have the “rights”, if you haven’t the deep pockets of a corporation, for example, then you simply cannot afford to exercise them.
Way cool, you’ve got rights, and if you can’t afford to exercise them, well its your own fault, the Puritan Ethic and all that.
Okay that deals with “justice”.
Now, let’s talk about “truth”.
“Truth” is whatever Cass Sunstein or Susan Collin’s says that it is.
Hell “they” believe and claim, that “they” can (and do) “make” reality(?) whatever they want it to be.
Oh, you have (for a time) the “right” to disagree, but you’ve no “right” to be heard.
Way cool …
Yep, they all rode in on democratic traditions, and we all believed them when they said …. ?
Remember when used-car salesmen and politicians were regarded as equally …um “upstanding”?
Well, it looks like there’s quite a lot of room up there on the pedestal.
DW
The more Collins talks the dumber we know she is.
I highly recommend that people wanting to discuss the assassination doctrine that Dennis Blair outlined look at the article by Jane Mayer called The Predator War. The article lays out the legal concerns with respect to international law quite cleanly,
The article goes on to discuss whether these criteria have been met in Pakistan (the use of drones in Pakistan is the subject of the article), and what the problems are. It also discusses whether or not remote drones should be allowed in war at all, which isn’t against the laws of war yet but may at some point be.
Judging from the discussion there, I would say the government is on slippery and illegal ground if any of these attacks are not living up to all the conditions above, and if any are just assassinations. As the above quote alludes, attacks that are not against military objectives (term of art) aren’t legal, and that includes assassinations, which under international law are extra-judicial killings, not acts of war. I happen to believe that drones will eventually be banned or at least subjected to a lot of restrictions, but IHL is reactive, so they aren’t yet, even if I think they should be.
Starting with the invasion of Afghanistan more than a few American politicians have become immersed in the culture of preemption. The new normal is overwhelming fear of outsiders. Fear that requires an overwhelming response to actions by those that are considered outsiders and demands the assumption of guilt. Shock and awe having worked so well in Iraq that it needs to be implemented, at least in small amounts in this country.
Since we know that the liberal wing of the Republican party believes that fear trumps the law we are left guessing what the more conservative part actually holds true.
My pitiful background in psychology leads me to see a bit of transference here. These pols that vote for war and occupation may recognize themselves making decisions that lead to violent and deadly acts upon innocents in other countries. They believe, therefore, that there must be others contemplating reciprocal acts in other countries and have determined that they have to stop their counterparts. The idea that violent acts are not being done by humans but by tools controlled by others, little different than flying drones. Drones don’t require justice or mercy and they already know what has to be going through the minds of their counterparts.
The only thing we have to fear is everything bigger than a carpenter ant or more than 10 ants congregating together.
Not much of a leap is involved to characterize any violent crime as an activity that terrorizes others, regardless of the actor’s intent; and robbers, whether armed or not — think of using your finger inside your jacket pocket to simulate a gun — intentionally create fear of harm to steal property. Congress need only redefine terrorism by amending the statute, persuade the Wingnut Brigade on the Supreme Court that delivered the steaming pile of shit called Citizen’s United that its expanded redefinition of torture should be exempted from the Bill of Rights because it’s necessary to save us from the evil within and, voila! we’re there!
Would anyone be surprised if Texas was the first state to enact such a statute giving Governor Rick Perry the authority to form assassination squads, target undesirables, and order them terminated with extreme prejudice? After all, he’s basically doing that now when he rejects a wrongfully convicted innocent person’s petition to avoid execution. Such a statute certainly would expedite the process of killing innocent people, a process in which Texas excels.
I am a stranger lost in a strange land. I do not know this place I used to proudly call my home.
The US Constitution’s guarantees afford American citizens security from oppression. Susan Collins opposes the Constitutional guarantee of due process. Therefore Susan Collins is a threat to American Security.
The “laws of war”?
Forgive me, ondelette, but in the new American lexicon, aren’t such “considerations” merely “quaint” and no longer applicable?
I will ask the impolite and impolitic question.
How much do Susan and her cohorts profit from endless war?
And I’m not simply referring to “political capital” with that question.
(Resounding silence …?)
DW
This Collins character is a disgrace. Can’t help but think that the good people of Maine are embarassed by her twisted little rant, out of nowhere, against President Obama. Her raving little speech was loaded with lies & innaccuracies, as proven by several tv political programs. She is obviously sucking up to her fellow Republi-cants, but it seems she is shamelss and dishonest. Couldn’t the Republi-cants have done better? This woman is double ugly, with a face like a horse, ill fitting teeth, and a voice that sounds like an old warped, raspy Victrola record. Strange how little respect these political manipulators and liars seem to have for themselves. The people must have conducted an “ugly search” to find this woman.
[Mod Note: let's try to keep questions of physical appearance out of a conversation about the issues.]
Not sure that profit has anything to do with the laws of war, but I just wanted to offer some framework, because the stuff in Jane Mayer’s article is very well researched and accurate. Susan Collins is way off base anyway, there’s no possible justification for applying laws of war to the undie bomber. Just look at the list Jane Mayer has. I know it was put together about the drones, but most of the check boxes are the same for the undie bomber.
Thanks for the link.
I doubt they are on a slippery slope so much as holding an untenable position by force. We’re the 800 lb. gorilla taking fruit from the spider monkeys.
Exactly. It’s been attributed to Ben Franklin: “Those who would give up Essential Liberty
to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.”
Ms. Collins never seemed to be crazy before; maybe I just wasn’t paying close enough attention.
Ah, I see that you were being serious and intellectually honest.
I don’t consider that certain other “people” are being so.
My concern with “laws of war” is that organized mayhem seems to have little respect for law, of any kind …
And I do wonder why it is that the political cla$$ have no apparent qualms about the very notion of “endless” war nor any evident concern about realizing that “war” cannot be made upon a tactic.
This profound “lack” appears “studied” and “consistent” and can only result when some “benefit” totally overwhelms every “cost” when it comes to being honest and doing their friggin’ jobs. Which job, incidentally, is NOT to set themselves up in lobbying sinecures for life.
If we agree that war is not the way “forward” to any kind of an existence WE would like to see become the norm on this planet for we featherless bipeds, then the entire range of Congressional “behavior”, from the feckless assumptions of “exceptionalism” to the daily diminishing of actual democracy by Congress or ANY of the elite powers, needs the light of day shined upon it.
Let us not hide things behind “National Security” or a squeamish refusal to ask the necessary questions. When it comes to destructive behaviors, persisted in and glorified, then let us not be obsequious in our politeness, for the social amenities require trust and a common, or SHARED sensibility of fundamental principles.
These things cannot be “situational”.
And since FEAR is, apparently, the underlying (no pun intended) operational methodology, one its users well-understand, it seems only fair to turn it back toward those who would have us swallow it like it were some tasty treat.
Here is the primary “law” of war.
WAR: it (or they) will go on until it (or they) is(are) no longer profitable.
DW
The United States of America is no longer a country of and by the people. It is a class structured country run by the filthy rich. We either need to take back our country or move to Amsterdam.
its not just “Ms. Collins and her political friends” who have this point of view – FDL pays this sort of issue very little attention compared to the sustained outrage over a Republican Administrations eavesdropping on Americans. Yours is the first mention of the Obama admins embrace of Cheney’s executive assassination of Americans policy on the front page, and you try to bury it at the bottom and link it to Republicans frightened, authoritarian worldview.
as Glenn Greenwald links, this policy is also wholeheartedly supported by many Democrats, in this case Kosnik commenters like ctexrep.
as the admirably consistent to his principles Greenwald points out:
Ah then, sporkovat, ye’ll not have been visiting over at EW’s, or you’d know that the topic has been discussed and continues to be discussed?
Just to put things in a wee perspective.
DW
indeed, I have not been visiting over there much, but it is welcome news that it is being discussed over there.
EW discussions are often quite technical, between folks very well versed in matters of law.
but, DWB, did not discussion of the Republican Administrations eavesdropping programs get ‘sustained attention’ on FDL frontpages, often with hundreds of commenters chiming in about how outrageous it was, some even clamoring for impeachment?
the ‘optics’ on it imply some flexibility in the standards of outrage between (D) and (R) admins, at the very least.