In reading stories that the Obama Administration will provide loan guarantees to backstop the construction costs of new nuclear power plants, I’ve been struck with how detached they are from the political debates about climate change and cap ‘n trade proposals. Do the nuke loan guarantees really escape the dreaded “national energy tax” and other anti-climate science diversions from Luntz-brained demogogues?
According to the Times — US Supports New Nuclear Reactors in Georgia — the President wants to provide loan guarantees to spur nuclear power development for both policy and political reasons:
In his speech, Mr. Obama portrayed the decision as part of a broad strategy to increase employment and the generation of clean power. But he also made clear that the move was a bid to gain Republican support for a broader energy bill.
“Those who have long advocated for nuclear power — including many Republicans — have to recognize that we will not achieve a big boost in nuclear capacity unless we also create a system of incentives to make clean energy profitable,” Mr. Obama said.
Some Republicans, however, said that the announcement would have little effect on their votes.
Don Stewart, a spokesman for the Republican Senate leader, Mitch McConnell, said that Mr. McConnell had repeatedly praised Mr. Obama for favoring additional loan guarantees for nuclear power plants. But, he said, this would not translate into support for a cap on carbon dioxide emissions.
“It won’t cause Republicans to support the national energy tax,” Mr. Stewart said.
So, the Republican stated opposition to cap ‘n trade is because it’s a “national energy tax,” even though the substantially watered-down bill that squeeked out of the House and remains trapped in the dysfunctional Senate grants a substantial portion of the value of the carbon credits to the coal utilities and their customers precisely to prevent the implicit “tax” from raising electricity rates.
But what happens when large utility, Southern Company, builds two large reactors in Georgia to serve its multi-state electric power pool that covers several southern states? Well, first, Southern Company has refused to create open electricity markets in the South; they remain the supply monopolist for the region and do everything they can — with federal regulators’ help — to discourage competitors.
Everything that Southern builds to serve their customers goes into electricity rate base in the pooled states. That means once the plants are approved by the affected state regulators — and they don’t often say “no” — all the construction costs of those plants must be recovered through higher rates imposed on all electricity customers. You know, sorta like a “tax.”
And since the capital/construction costs of nuclear plants have grown dramatically over the years and remain highly uncertain (i.e., likely to grow even more while a plant is under construction), that means ratepayers could be on the hook for (1) the rate shock when the plants first go into rate base and (2) further rate increases if the regulators allow the utility to pass through the virtually inevitable cost increases while the plants are under construction. Sorta like a big tax now, and more tax increases later.
The federal loan guarantees are a way of shielding Southern Company investors, but not necessarily the ratepayers, from the expected cost escalation. But the Times confuses this further:
The loan guarantees were authorized by the Energy Policy Act of 2005. If the reactors are built and operate profitably, the borrowers will repay the banks and pay a fee to the federal government in exchange for the guarantee; if the borrowers default, the federal government will repay the banks. Critics have argued that the chance of default is high, and the loans have been delayed by protracted negotiations over what the fee should be.
Uh, Southern doesn’t allow markets or market prices, so the notion there’s some means to determine whether “the plants are built and operate profitably” doesn’t apply here. Unless Southern changes it’s long-held opposition to organized markets — like those common in the Northeast, Midwest, Mid-Atlantic, Mid-Southwest, California and Texas, but not the South — at no time will these plants ever be at risk of being “unprofitable” under market pricing.
If they were at risk, it’s unlikely the plants would ever be built without even greater federal subsidies, because the risks of market prices failing to cover the fixed/capital costs are too high for investors to accept, a conclusion the market has been delivering for 30 years and the Congressional Budget Office has acknowledged.
The South should be asking itself whether it sees a major commitment to nukes as a way to avoid the explicit or implicit taxes from a meaningful carbon reduction plan. The South’s [electricity demand] had been growing (before the Great Recession), so the region will have to add new power plants and/or better demand-reduction/efficiency measures just to keep up. Adding new nukes won’t do much to displace existing coal-fired generation for a long time. And if the plan is to displace coal-fired emission more quickly, then you’d need a lot more nukes — and a lot more subsidies — to do the job.
Since nukes aren’t the cheapest way to solve these problems (try demand-reduction/efficiency measures first), the South is heading down a path whose implicit “tax” on electricity customers is likely to be higher than anything they’d face under a direct carbon tax or an indirect tax via a cap and trade system. Good luck.
And do you think Republicans care? Because I doubt it matters to Southern Company.
Update: According to this article, Georgia is willing to allow the utility to put the construction/capital costs of the plants to be put into rate base during construction, which means ratepayers will be paying part of the construction costs for years before the plants are completed and begin to produce electricity. (h/t Aladdinslamp, cmt #54)
Disclosure: I once worked for a state regulatory agency with authority over nuclear plant construction and handling licensing matters. Later, and before retiring, I also consulted on electricity industry issues, including for clients in the nuclear industry, though not on nuclear issues.
More:
Helpful background from alank at Seminal
For skeptical views on nuclear plant costs, see David McClelland at SolveClimate, here, and Sue Sturgis, here; also this from Climate Progress.
NYT, Georgia Power still raising rates



61 Comments







For this nuclear plant/industry illiterate, your analysis makes a lot of sense. It helps to reaffirm the disclosure. I’ve wondered why in the world Obama would make this kind of policy decision and then wondered if this wasn’t part of his southern strategy, kind of like the deals with PhRMA (?) and the other bill to protect the HRC process from media assaults. Southern Company is an abominable obstruction to so much that is needed in new comprehensive energy policy. Thanks for educating us on that issue.
Blessings
“to organized markets — like those common in the Northeast, Midwest, Mid-Atlantic, Mid-Southwest, California and Texas”
And how’s that worked out? Especially for California.
There is much benefit to the regulated monopoly market.
Without getting into the differences between well regulated systems and well designed organized market regions — and I’ve worked in both — you should recall that the market rules in effect in California during the crisis of 2000-2001 were very different than the rules that apply there now and which apply in most other regions.
The initial California rules were strongly affected by Enron and it’s marketer allies during the 1995-98 reform period. I and others strongly objected at the time because we predicted ways in which that market would be manipulated. The state also made some serious mistakes both before the market collapse and during the crisis that made things even worse than they should have been. But that’s another story. http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/6428
So, your main point is that Obama should be making the case that the stalled cap and trade thingy is a much better deal for the country than the thingy he announced yesterday.
Conservation and efficiency measures seem always off the table or dismissed as a pipe dream or luddite or holding back “progress” which is a philosophical issue.
I’ve always believed that if you’re going to promote something on the electricity front, you should be promoting the most cost-effective and benign things first, and I don’t have any doubt that means conservation/energy efficiency.
Once you decide you want to dramatically reduce carbon-based emissions, I don’t see how you do that effectively without some type of carbon tax. You can do that via a cap and trade mechanism, or better yet, cap and rebate, but one way another, a tax. That’s arguably better than throwing subsidies at technologies that are highly capital-intensive, cost-uncertain, long-lead time, and safety-challenged.
Short version on what I’ve read on capntrade vs. carbon tax is that the former is so easy to manipulate (& Wall St. already set up & doing so) that it is useless. Any comments?
Not my area of expertise, but in general, both approaches share many complex features — you have to determine who gets taxed in one and who gets capped in the other, and by how much,, and then track what they do — similar sets of hard issues. There are examples of workable cap and trade in other pollutants, pioneered in California, and examples of markets that get manipulated. A national system would be a huge undertaking, so there are now regional experiments in the North East/NY and in the West/Calif — trying to solve the problems. So it’s pick your poison and work out the antidotes/solutions. I don’t have a preference.
Are you saying that if a carbon tax is levied on biz, they can manipulate it? Presuming a carbon tax on consumers is politically a nonstarter?
I’m saying that to impose the tax, you have to identify each source, figure out/track it’s emissions over time and apply the tax consistently as they change their emissions. There is an analogous set of problems for capntrade. I really don’t have a preference, because I’ve not studied it enough — it wasn’t my area.
The carbon tax could be imposed at the end user, eliminating the need to do all the tracking. But I suppose that’s a political nonstarter. Or, because of its regressive nature, would have to be offset by some sort of income-related credits.
However, my understanding of the European VA tax is that they do it at every stage, so it would seem to be doable. Probably not with corrupt U.S. pols though.
On the carbon tax: It can be manipulated by politicians.
On cap-and-trade: It can be manipulated by politicians. Whether the market functions correctly depends on (1) how scarce pollution is made by the cap; (2) the mechanism by which trades are processed and the supervision of that mechanism; (3) the information that is available to traders in the market and how that information is audited.
We have already seen how politicians can manipulate (1); the electric market in California showed how (2) could be manipulated by players; the pricing of CDS’s shows how (3) can be manipulated by players.
Agree that govt can manipulate both. It seems to me, though, that it’s harder for the govt to manipulate Cap’n Trade more easily (i.e., hide giveaways to biz by giving away pollution rights) than by manipulating carbon tax. I’m ready to learn.
The politicians don’t have to hide giveaways. It’s the looseness of the current cap in the legislation sent to the Senate and the fact that businesses will be granted a large number of units to begin trading with. It starts out pricing at slightly above zero with no guarantees of tightening the cap in out years.
You are arguing my tentative side, that it’s easier for pols to hide the giveaways thru Cap’n Trade. I’m looking for the arguements that it’s just as easy, or easier, for biz to manipulate a carbon tax.
Manipulating a carbon tax is done by manipulating the usage data on the carbon-based items you are using. The manipulation occurs the same way that manipulation of any taxes do. How do you measure how much carbon you generate? You can have rules for calculation and you can audit the calculations, but there is not enough tax agents to avoid manipulation. Moreso given the methodological controversies over how to measure carbon generation accurately.
As for government manipulation, it can occur by loopholes for specific activities or specific industries and can be hidden from those who don’t understand what the loophole is doing.
Thanks. That’s helpful.
Except for the fact that most likely any carbon tax would be applied upstream. In which case it wouldn’t be you or I paying the tax. It would be a relatively limited set of industrial scale producers with products or direct emissions profiles that have a pretty clear relationship between use and carbon emissions (ie coal, petroleum at the “rack”, clinker (cement) manufacture, etc). A downstream tax would indeed have so many calculations in between actual gas emission and point of tax assessment as to raise manipulation concerns.
Cap and trade isn’t that easy to manipulate when done in a straightforward manner, (which it most definitely could be and *is* in the USA right now). Right now, almost all power plants of any size in the US are currently obligated to measure their CO2 emissions. Power plants account for roughly 1/3 of national emissions and so would likely be the primary element of any cap and trade program.
The SO2 (Acid Rain) allowance program which was the original economy wide implementation of the cap and trade concept has been phenomenally successful, and I don’t believe that there are any complaints from any participant or watchdog group that there is gaming of the system. (The SO2 program is actually the reason CO2 is currently measured as noted above). Plants have required stack monitoring programs (at 15 minute intervals) and are subject to random on-site and statistical tests…and major plants don’t move. Plus, named individuals are on the hook for jail time in certain circumstances (novel concept we might want to implement more broadly for corporate malfeasance).
The element of carbon “cap and trade” that has been a target for concerns about manipulation has been on the international front where you have a concept called “offsets”. By definition, this is not cap and trade, they are project based and “outside the cap”; though this is lost on almost all observers and certainly all in the press.
The prototypical instance of an offset would be a chinese clean energy project. Offsets are very much products of calculations vs baseline counterfactuals (ie, compare emissions with a “clean” energy project and compare with “what would have happened otherwise” and the difference is an “offset”). The whole element was added to the Kyoto protocol as an incentive to bring developing countries on-board with an international carbon control regime they all feared would sap more traditional development aid (they were right to be afraid).
Offsets would not need to be part of any system at all, and even if included (there are some good reasons for them, though mostly political), but in any case are actually not “cap and trade”.
Sounds reasonable to me.
Buildings consume approximately 39% of the energy and 74% of the electricity produced annually in the United States. Through the U.S. Green Building Council, LEED certified buildings, at a minimum, are required to improve building performance by 10%. Additionally, credit points are awarded for performance increases up to 48%. Also, the new ANSI/NAHB ICC 700-2008 National Green Building Standard mandates increased energy performance as well. Building codes are being updated across the country to reflect increased building performance.
Add to this other LEED strategies focused on reducing our dependancy on fossil fuels such as incentives for reducing autombile use, which reduces the energy required to produce fossil fuels. Both on-site and off-site (grid) renewable energy sources are becoming, somewhat, commonplace. In the State of Ohio, all new schools must be built to LEED Silver levels and California has adopted similar requirements for all new government buildings. Many state and local governments are mandating increased building performance by requiring some degree of LEED certification.
I agree with Scarecrow. Conservation and efficiency via high performance buildings and smarter transportation is the better solution. Reduce our dependance. Cap and Trade is a political ruse that will provide minimal impact on reducing carbon emissions. Great program for carbon traders though. Just think about that for a minute – carbon trading!
I don’t agree, however, that conservatives summarily accept the current state of affairs with regards to nuclear energy. As I read today:
“As a result, the nuclear industry is completely dependent on governmental approval, something that has turned it into yet another rent-seeking concern, latching on to the global warming bandwagon as its justification rather than the production of affordable, reliable, sustainable energy. In essence, the industry has happily become a ward of the state. This is not something conservatives should celebrate.”
“The Nuclear Regulatory Commission’s new permitting process is a good first step in that it reduces the time from application to license issue down to just four years in ideal circumstances; by way of comparison, the United Kingdom’s Labour government has announced a new process whereby planning application and licensing together take just one and a half years. Indeed, the Brits believe that with this new process a whole fleet of new nuclear plants, not a mere two, can be operational from 2018 — without government subsidy. Such a bold step would be an even clearer signal to the market that nuclear is back than loan guarantees and would certainly spur innovation and competition in the sector once more.”
However, conservatives have long lobbied for nuclear energy, so I don’t know that they have much choice than accept what is presently being offered. I’ve been involved with sustainability since the early 80s and it’s been a long and difficult journey. Nothing happened until government and private industry began subsidizing new technologies. We’ve got to take what we can get, but on occassion with conditions we don’t neccessarily agree with.
Energy efficiency is great. But voluntary programs, while nice, aren’t going to get us anywhere meaningful. Bush the Elder committed us to voluntary efforts to reduce carbon emissions back in Rio 1991.
Not to say that “buildings” you cite as 79% of electricity use aren’t one of the major areas of energy consumption (ok they aren’t ), but I think you need to be more clear about what constitutes “building” electricity use that is actually relevant for LEED (in reviewing this chart https://publicaffairs.llnl.gov/news/news_releases/2009/NR-09-07-02.html please note that residential/commmercial doesn’t equal “buildings”). Additionally, there are a whole lot of LEED certified buildings in the middle of office parks; just because you get “credit” or even get to “trade” (horrors) points from one area of scoring to another doesn’t mean we’ll be saved by LEED.
We have LEED being rolled out all over now (and have for a while). We’ve had lots of utility efficiency programs and national voluntary programs for a long while. Quick, which way have residential/commercial emissions been going, up or down?
As for carbon trading, the key to any cap and trade program from an environmental perspective is “the cap”. The trading gets you to the cap level in the least cost fashion. Show me where the SO2 program, which relies on cap and trade, has been a failure.
There is nothing that energy efficiency rewards programs like LEED can do that couldn’t be done better simply by sending a more accurate price signal (which is the aim of cap and trade). Right now, people are using energy as “efficiently” as they use anything else. They pay a price for it and weigh the associated costs and benefits (that they face as individuals, and largely ignore the costs that society faces as a whole).
If you look at what California achieved in the last 30 years on energy efficiency, you’ll find a lot of its success depended on govt mandates/standards (set by the California Energy Commission) — both by triennial updates to building codes and by continuing updates to appliance efficiency standards. There are tough efficiency standards for refrigerators, air conditioners and heating systems, (nw tvs too!); building codes for window U-values, ceiling, floor, and wall insulation, shading, weather stripping/caulking, thermal mass, etc. The standards get updated every three years as technologies and costs change. That accounts for improvements in new buildings, residential and commercial.
In addition, California’s utilities have been urged, cajoled and sometimes required to spend money retrofitting older/existing building and to invest in other efficiency measures.
I agree that pricing is important to create the right incentives, both for carbon and for time of use electricity generally. California has been slower on that, but it’s getting there. But the point is that California’s efforts were largely driven by tough efficiency standards, not pricing — they should have been working together.
I’m intimately familiar on a professional basis with both the voluntary programs (EnergyStar, green buildings,…) and cap’n'trade.
Where are California energy/electricity consumption levels now vs. 30 years ago? Today’s plasma and LCD TVs use vastly larger quantities of energy than did TVs of 30 years ago, despite the existence of efficient models that are much better than others in terms of energy consumption.
Point is that exhorting people to “save” energy is the equivalent of saying “save” money just less direct.
Updated building codes are a double edged sword. Many “efficient” practices end-up being against code…a swathe of EnergyStar homes in the middle of nowhere ain’t all that efficient and overall housing/building prices get pushed up to boot. Regulation of that sort is a blunt force weapon when what you really want in the end is for people to face the actual costs of their actions.
Agreed that time of use pricing would be really good addition to the mix.
“Many “efficient” practices end-up being against code…”
LEED always defers to code whenever there is a conflcit
“a swathe of EnergyStar homes in the middle of nowhere ain’t all that efficient and overall housing/building prices get pushed up to boot”
Yeah, that’s a problem on two fronts. LEED was revamped this year and ENERGY STAR is in the process. LEED now recognizes Regional Priorities such that a ‘cool’ roof in Florida is not what you use in upper Michigan.
Also, the public needs to be educated as the number of lawsuits against LEED certified projects are growing. People see LEED and they do not know that there are 4 distinct levels of efficiency and performance offered. Not all LEED buildings will produce 25% or 40% energy efficiencies simply due to the level of certification being sought.
In light of this, USGBC now requires all certified buildings turn over their water and energy usage figures for 5 years. It may well be that recertification every 5 years will be mandated in order to retain certification.
LEED rating systems address the following building types and projects: New Construction and Major Renovations (Commercial, Institutional, residential 4 or more stories, offices, warehouses); Core & Shell (building shell and major mechanical systems); Commercial Interiors (tenant build out); Schools; Retail; Healthcare; Homes; Neighborhood Development; Existing Buildings: Operations and Maintenance (ongoing maintenance and performance of existing buildings)
According to a Commercial Building Energy Survey conducted in 2003, the U.S. had 4.9 million commercial buildings with 71.6 billion square feet of floor space. These buildings used 6,500 trillion Btus of energy, of which electricity accounted for 55% and natural gas 32%. Of this, 36% was used for space heating and 21% for lighting. In 2003, users spent $92 billion on energy, not including transportation related energy costs. EIA’s 2005 Residential Energy Consumption Survey collected data from 4,381 households that statistically represented 111.1 million housing units in the U.S. that showed households spent a total of $201 billion on energy in 2005. In 2001, the EIA estimated that Americans drove 2,287 billion vehicle miles, consuming 113 billion gallons of gasoline and spending $150.3 billion on fuel. The combustion of all that fuel released 837 metric tons of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere.
A study by the New Buildings Institute found that green buildings average energy use intensities (energy consumed by square foot of floor space) are 24% lower than in conventional buildings. A U.S. GSA survey found green buildings use 26% less energy and produce 33% lower C02 emissions. All GSA buildings are now required to be LEED certified.
“There is nothing that energy efficiency rewards programs like LEED can do that couldn’t be done better simply by sending a more accurate price signal”
1) The City of Cincinnati offers a tax abatement program for LEED commercial and residential certified buildings. New LEED construction of one, two, and three unit residential structures, including condominiums, are eligible for a 15-year 100% tax abatement valued up to $530,450. I am currently designing a residence for a client of my son’s that will be LEED certified. As such, the client will receive a 100 % tax abatement for 15 years. This program has created a substantial amount of new construction inside the city limits and is drawing construction away from the suburbs that don’t offer these types of incentives. A side benefit to this is a reduction in Vehicle Miles Traveled (VMT) from home to the workplace. Many municipalities across the nation are either implementing similar programs or investigating them.
2) All GSA buildings are now required to be LEED certified
3) All schools in Ohio are now required to be LEED certified – spreading to other states as well
4) All government buildings in the State of California are now required to be LEED certified – spreading to other states as well
5) State and local governments across the country are now mandating some degree of LEED certification or the local building codes are being revised to implement increase energy efficiency. The ANSI/NAHB ICC 700-2008 National Green Building Standard released in January 2009 may well become the model code.
All this has happened within the last few years – far better results than any Cap and Trade policy. With the new LEED Existing Buildings: O& M rating system, existing buildings are being made more efficient. Employers understand the benefits of increased occupant satisfaction and decreased Sick Building Syndrome (SBS).
You are correct in that LEED does permit credit selection. One user may be more interested in energy reduction thru high performance building strategies (insulation, windows, passive solar, building orientation, etc.), while another may want to concentrate on improving the indoor air quality for his employees and yet another may be more concerned with water efficiency (outdoor uses of potable water, primarily for landscape irrigation, account for 30% of the 26 billion gallons of water consumed daily in the U.S.). However, all LEED rating systems have 5 sustainable categories (Sustainable Sites, Water Efficiency, Energy and Atmosphere, Materials and Resources, Indoor Environmental Quality) that have mandated prerequisites establishing minimum performance increases. All prerequisites must be met in order to achieve certification. Miss but 1 prerequisite in any category and certification is denied. What many people do not understand is they see certain credits omitted, such as the energy efficiency credits, and get the wrong perception. For instance, a project can use light colored pervious pavement in the Sustainable Sites category to control stormwater quantity and quality. But this strategy also reduces the amount of heat transmitted thru the building, therefore reducing the HVAC load which reduces energy consumption. Since a large part of a building’s water use goes to heating and delivering the water, energy is consumed. Reducing water consumption reduces energy usage. Clearly the public needs to be educated.
LEED 2009 uses the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency’s TRACI1 environmental impact categories as the basis for weighting each credit. TRACI was developed to assist with impact evaluation for life-cycle assessment, industrial ecology, process design, and pollution prevention. As such, the Energy and Atmosphere category provides the highest number of credit points allowed.
“Quick, which way have residential/commercial emissions been going, up or down?”
You need to be careful when discussing increases/decreases during any time frame and define certain parameters. For instance, the EPA estimates that 1/3 of the nation’s fresh water streams, lakes and rivers are now unsafe for swimming and fishing. However, they are 50% cleaner today than they were in the 1970s. Although many areas of the country are at a critical point and running out of fresh water, U.S. industries use 36% less water today than they did in 1950 although industrial output has increased significantly. Due largely to water reuse strategies in industrial processes and EPAct 1992 requiring water conserving plumbing fixtures in residential, commercial and institutional buildings.
I still agree with Scarecrow. Conservation and efficiency via high performance buildings and smarter transportation is the better solution.
So to recap, this will get zero Republican votes and provide jobs in a conservative state for people who think the govt cannot create jobs paid for by blue states.
I’m pretty sure there are other places that could use some jobs, too. Or are we not allowed to help liberals anymore?
Not just the South. The first guarantees will go to Southern, but there are other nuclear developers in other regions around the country. See the list in alank’s post at Seminal.
Michigan has gotten substantial wind energy equipment manufacturing investment.
I’ve always believed we should at the very least deal with the waste issue before building yet another power plant.
Seems like the dirty ammunition dispersal method is the only way.
That principle has been the law in California since the late 1970s. You can’t get a license for a new nuke in California until the state confirms the waste storage problem is solved. And it isn’t yet. At that time, San Diego Gas and Electric Company applied for a permit and the legislature asked, do we have to build this, or are there credible alternatives. The state agency assigned to research this found: “No,” we don’t have to do this and “yes,” there are alternatives. And there were, and we set out to do them.
There is a very well-written piece on the “10 Reasons Nukes Won’t Save the Climate” from the NIRS. It clarifies a lot of the confusion about whether nuclear power should be part of the mix to lower our carbon emissions. HINT: NO!
Someone needs to take a lesson from what happened when Ann Richards went for nuclear power. NIMBY.
Clean Coal? Please, give me a break. Take a look at Germany and what they’ve done on energy, do it better, and make sure those jobs are created in THIS nation.
Capn Trade.
Cap’n Charade Serve with bubbly… since I hear it creates another bubble.
It really depends on how strict the Georgia public utility regulators are in their audits of Georgia Power Company (the Southern Company subsidiary that owns the plant).
Back in the early 1980s, public utility commissions all over the South shut down power companies from charging consumers for construction work-in-progress (CWIP) on nuclear power plants. Which is one of the things that limited the development of new nuclear power plants.
There are ways to reduce carbon emissions through market forces, such as a carbon tax or cap-and-trade. Those have appeared since the Reagan administration because of the emphasis on market-oriented solutions. You can also reduce carbon emissions through direct regulation and inspection; this is the route that EPA is currently pursuing. You can also reduce carbon emissions through direct investment (through loan guarantees, direct loans, or grants) in technology that does not have carbon emissions. That was done in the National Recovery and Reinvestment Act, will be continued in the 2010 budget, and is what is going on in this announcement of loan guarantees. It seems that Obama is letting loose all of the methods he can at once (cap-and-trade or a carbon tax depends on Congress). No doubt there will be pruning later as the most effective methods prove themselves.
Proponents of nuclear energy investment make these arguments: (1) current nuclear technology is capable of using as fuel what was nuclear waste; (2) using decommissioned nuclear warheads as commercial fuel (after reprocessing) has been proven during the implementation of START; having adequate plant capacity to reprocess and use warheads for reactor fuel is essential to moving toward Zero Nukes; (3) the small scale plants that Los Alamos and Lawrence Livermore labs have developed are safer, more efficient, more reliable, less likely to be used for dual military-commercial use and easier to protect from terrorists than existing nuclear power plants; the sooner that the newer technology can replace the technology of the 1950s-1980s, the better; (4) nuclear power plants in the new generation of technology can be reliably exported to produce energy in other nations without endangering efforts at nonproliferation (so long as there is effective tracking of the fuel supply); (5) China is moving rapidly to become an exporter of small-scale nuclear generating plants; we move now or lose that market as well; (6) nuclear energy has the best prospect of providing transition to renewable technologies by being able to handle baseload power as coal-fired plants are taken offline.
I’m curious to understand more about the new nuclear technology that folks like Stewart Brand and Bill Gates are touting as a transition. And I am still agnostic about it, but I think that it is worth examining in a different light than the Amory Lovins formulation of the 1970s. And I am curious to see where Lovins is on this issue.
If there is any there there, Chu would know the technology.
“It seems that Obama is letting loose all of the methods he can at once (cap-and-trade or a carbon tax depends on Congress). No doubt there will be pruning later as the most effective methods prove themselves.”
I agree that’s what they’re doing. Not just “let’s see what works,” but more “let’s plan to and threaten to do X (direct EPA point source regulation), which they hate more than Y (capntrade), and maybe they’ll agree to do Y.”
And naturally, we have Congresscritters (in the Senate now) trying to cripple the EPA’a ability to limit carbon emissions, so that it can’t put pressure on the major polluters.
nuclear power tax?
another reason I switched to solar.
10% of $0 utility bill is – $0
Update: a potential partner in nuke project in Texas withdrew it’s application for fed loan guarantees today.
http://texasvox.org/2010/02/17/cpsnrg-settlement-shows-nuclear-power-too-costly-too-risky/
This could cascade.
Look at this, and then tell me these reactors are not insanity.
The Legacy of Chernobyl
You’ve got to do cost-benefit analysis. (Ditto terrorism, said by someone living in Manhattan on 9/11, and strenuously arguing that WAY too much was spent in its aftermath.) If nuclear power were cheaper, even calculating in the probability of the Chernobyl costs, then it might still be worth doing. (Considering that humans make judgements on the value of human life every day, even in the simple act of crossing the street.) I think that, costs all in, including costs of disposal, nuclear electricity is NOT the answer.
First of all, the Chernobyl reactor was early 1950s Soviet technology. I would guess that there are no reactors operating now using this technology–although there might be a few left in Russia.
Second, the effects of that accident are very much like the effects of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs and will be dealt with by the Russian government in much the same way that Japan dealt with the aftereffects of those bombings.
Third, Fusco’s documentary is a decade old. And since Chernobyl there has been a lot of research into (1) how to prevent a reactor meltdown and (2) how to respond to the results of a reactor meltdown. One of the results is the scaling down of the size of nuclear reactors.
Dynamite under your logic is insanity. And it has been put to insane uses. But it has also become familiar enough for people to understand the risks and how to use it safely.
One thing neither you nor I admitted in our Chernobyl comments is that, rationality aside, Chernobyl is a GREAT emotional argument against nuclear electricity. Giving credit where credit’s due.
Yep, and it and Three Mile Island are why we have been without new nuclear plants even after interest rates were lower and utilities had cash to invest. Plus, there is need for more stringent implementation of regulation of nuclear operations. It is very easy for people doing day-to-day operations to get complacent and very easy to prep for inspection at the last minute.
I guess I was slow in replying as I was reading the link I posted, but you are correct. in why we’ve been without any new nuclear plants.
But why play with something dangerous and not-so-clean when you can do it better?
The argument is that we can’t do better quickly enough to produce the equivalent amount of energy. Existing nuclear plants produce gigawatts of electricity. Small-scale nuclear plants produce megawatts of electricity cheaper (at the moment) than solar towers, which also are in the megawatt range — and you can locate them most anywhere there isn’t seismic activity.
Distributed photovoltaics are not a mature technology for producing more than the energy required for a few households. But it is not being neglected.
And investments in wind energy during the past year have been huge in the US.
It’s a both/and strategy by the Obama administration.
Second item.
Electricity is dangerous regardless of the method of generation.
And coal-fired generation is dirty. Remember the coal waste accident in Tennessee that released billions of gallons of waste containing heavy metals.
It’s a great argument for better training of operators, too.
Doing something stupid at a conventional power plant will kill people, but not usually anyone much outside the plant’s fence.
Doing something stupid at a nuclear plant will probably kill people several miles downwind, but not farther. If you’re lucky.
Generally, the US nuke plants are better-run than Chernobyl, but they’re getting old and will need to be replaced or overhauled. Maybe we can get them rebuilt with newer, safer designs.
The largest issue that nuke plant apologists ignore in these times of security theater is the fact that spent fuel rods are nasty and have nowhere to go. They wait in cooling ponds for someone of ill-will to do something with them. And when in motion, create great opportunities to spread toxins, whether also at the hands of people of ill-will or, much more likely, simply by accident. I believe that the record on shipments is 1-2% of nuke fuel transports end up having accidents while underway (I’ll have to track down a link.)
This leaves aside the issues of acid mine tailings from uranium mining which, particularly due to the nature of the ore and its low concentrations are massive.
In brief: it’s not really about when the fuel is in situ doing its thing that you have most to worry about given current state of the technology. (I mean, crap, look at all the aircraft carriers and nuclear subs the military operates). Almost by definition, someone is *supposed* to be actively monitoring the situation and if things go wrong, lights in millions of homes start to flicker.
Or there’s Indian Point, which is sited on a geological fault; the same fault that’s responsible for the Hudson River (I’ll have to check whether it’s more active than Haiti’s; though I can attest to being awoken by a tiny quake when I lived north of the city). Good thing no one lives nearby.
This all ignores the big economic question up front, why should private enterprise require even more federal assistance to do something that isn’t in any way novel? Why can’t they buy insurance on the private market?
Three Mile Island.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Mile_Island_accident#Current_status
I know it’s an older plant also, but Chernobyl wasn’t the only incident.
There are incidents every year that you never hear about. Three Mile Island was serious enough to cause a major investigation.
Gee that’s wonderful news. Sending TMI’s reactor to Progress Energy. I hope the regulators are monitoring that carefully. There is no reason in principle why it could not be reassembled and reused, given the right operational precautions. I would prefer that Progress were updating to newer technology.
You are not likely to see that happen with the Chernobyl plant.
I reported on this back when they rammed the rate increases to pay for development through. Nobody noticed. Glad to see it being picked up now that it looks like they will be more bold in continuing with expecting poorer taxpayers to bear the major burden..
And you think our fellow Georgians will be able to figure all this out?
OT
Proof positive that Stewart is a wimp and Colbert is the real thing.
I was neither pleased nor surprised to learn that Obama intends to shield energy corporations from market risk, and to increase their profits, using tax payer money. Which money is available for every conceivable purpose so long as said purpose does not benefit…tax payers. (Well, not many of them, anyway.)
Look. With the management of our system we cannot run a popcorn factory without poisoning the workers with dicetyl, or a slim jim factory without having it explode and kill several workers. Black lung is increasing again in the coal mines. Corporations are pushing people harder and cutting operating expenses, including maintenance for safety, closer to the bone.
The uranium mines, fuel processing facilities and antique power plants we already have to clean up will consume trillions of dollars, if there will be any clean up done at all.
Going one step farther down this road is insanity.
Before you advocate building more reactors you should be willing to work in one and live next door.
Insanity is right, especially when these are some of the consequences of using nuclear power. From Wikipedia:
“In the United States alone, the Department of Energy states there are “millions of gallons of radioactive waste” as well as “thousands of tons of spent nuclear fuel and material” and also “huge quantities of contaminated soil and water.”[15] Despite copious quantities of waste, the DOE has stated a goal of cleaning all presently contaminated sites successfully by 2025.[15] The Fernald, Ohio site for example had “31 million pounds of uranium product”, “2.5 billion pounds of waste”, “2.75 million cubic yards of contaminated soil and debris”, and a “223 acre portion of the underlying Great Miami Aquifer had uranium levels above drinking standards.”[15] The United States has at least 108 sites designated as areas that are contaminated and unusable, sometimes many thousands of acres.[15][16] DOE wishes to clean or mitigate many or all by 2025, however the task can be difficult and it acknowledges that some may never be completely remediated. In just one of these 108 larger designations, Oak Ridge National Laboratory, there were for example at least “167 known contaminant release sites” in one of the three subdivisions of the 37,000-acre (150 km2) site.”[15
"Of particular concern in nuclear waste management are two long-lived fission products, Tc-99 (half-life 220,000 years) and I-129 (half-life 17 million years), which dominate spent fuel radioactivity after a few thousand years. The most troublesome transuranic elements in spent fuel are Np-237 (half-life two million years) and Pu-239 (half life 24,000 years).[24] Nuclear waste requires sophisticated treatment and management in order to successfully isolate it from interacting with the biosphere. This usually necessitates treatment, followed by a long-term management strategy involving storage, disposal or transformation of the waste into a non-toxic form.[25] Governments around the world are considering a range of waste management and disposal options, though there has been limited progress toward long-term waste management solutions.”
Gosh, too bad there’s not a federal agency with experience operating nuclear reactors that could simply build nuclear plants itself and sell the power wholesale at reasonable cost. If such a creature existed, Obama could quickly expand the nation’s nuclear energy capacity without wasting billions in corporate welfare.
oh wait….
http://www.tva.gov/power/nuclear/index.htm
Take 2…
Gosh, too bad there’s not a Democrat in the White House…. :o)
Since the Tennessee Valley Authority has its own bond-issuing authority but is not counted on the federal budget, Congress could increase the TVA’s debt ceiling (and service coverage area) to fund and build out nuclear plants across the country without adding a dollar to the budget deficit.
On the other hand, the Army Corps of Engineers could get back into the nuclear racket.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_Nuclear_Power_Program
Georgia Power gets its wish as opponents fume
Snip…
http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/stories/2009/03/01/georgia_power_legislature.html%3Fcxntlid%3Dhomepage_tab_newstab&imw%3DY
Thanks for that link to the Georgia decision. Looks like the CWIP (construction work in progress) battle is already over, so the utility will get to put the on-going capital/construction costs of building these plants into rate base, and start collecting higher rates, well before consumers see any benefits/electricity, just as I predicted. All the risks are being shifted to consumers and, via the loan guarantees, tax payers.
I’ll add the link with an update.