Well, this is cheery news. Paul Krugman fears we’re headed towards another Long Depression. The European and other G-20 leaders are collectively herding themselves like lemmings towards the cliffs of insanity by promising to cut spending and reduce demand before their economies have recovered from a serious global recession. From today’s Krugman column, The Third Depression:
Neither the Long Depression of the 19th century nor the Great Depression of the 20th was an era of nonstop decline — on the contrary, both included periods when the economy grew. But these episodes of improvement were never enough to undo the damage from the initial slump, and were followed by relapses.
We are now, I fear, in the early stages of a third depression. It will probably look more like the Long Depression than the much more severe Great Depression. But the cost — to the world economy and, above all, to the millions of lives blighted by the absence of jobs — will nonetheless be immense.
And this third depression will be primarily a failure of policy. Around the world — most recently at last weekend’s deeply discouraging G-20 meeting — governments are obsessing about inflation when the real threat is deflation, preaching the need for belt-tightening when the real problem is inadequate spending. . . .
As far as rhetoric is concerned, the revival of the old-time religion is most evident in Europe, where officials seem to be getting their talking points from the collected speeches of Herbert Hoover, up to and including the claim that raising taxes and cutting spending will actually expand the economy, by improving business confidence. As a practical matter, however, America isn’t doing much better. The Fed seems aware of the deflationary risks — but what it proposes to do about these risks is, well, nothing. The Obama administration understands the dangers of premature fiscal austerity — but because Republicans and conservative Democrats in Congress won’t authorize additional aid to state governments, that austerity is coming anyway, in the form of budget cuts at the state and local levels.
I watched President Obama’s press conference last night after the G-20 meetings. His prepared statement emphasized the current Administration view, that while medium- to long-run deficits warrant corrections that kick in later, our immediate focus should be on assuring the recovery is sound enough to sustain solid growth and declining unemployment. He noted that different countries are at different stages and correctly warned that we "can’t have everyone head for the exits at the same time." Yet that’s exactly what the G-20 resolution seemed to endorse: everyone commits to curtail spending and cut their deficits in half by 2013, even though there’s no coherent theory under which they can all do that at the same time and come out well.
For some unexplained reason, the White House seemed to downplay their concerns over this lemming-like behavior. It’s not clear what harm there is in loudly proclaiming they’re making a horrendous mistake and they’ll regret it. Why coddle this folly?
The final press question asked Obama what assurances he could give that the US would meet the Administration’s own promise to cut US deficits in half by 2013 — that’s right, the 2013 target was originally their idea, a sop to the deficit hysteria mob. Here, the President missed an opportunity.
He knows the Bush tax cuts are expiring (at least for those making above $200-250,000), and he’d already noted that much of recent deficit explosion was driven by the recession and responses to it, but those causes should phase out.
But instead of reemphasizing these points that our media too often forgets, he recalled OMB Orszag’s trivial cuts on non-discretionary spending and gave a nod to the deficit reduction (cat food) commission, gratuitously adding that we have to solve "the entitlements problems" in Medicare/Medicaid and Social Security. As Dean Baker and others have repeatedly shown, Social Security is in surplus and not a deficit issue, and lumping it in with the health cost issue is an egregious misstatement of whatever long-run deficit issues we face.
The President also missed an opportunity to hammer home again that the most important steps in reducing long-run deficits start with a fully recovered economy and putting people back to work. We’re not remotely close to that yet. That’s what the US had been telling the Europeans, and what the Administration’s economic advisers reportedly believe. But too often when it matters, they forget that’s the right answer even though today’s deficit hysteria public dialogues cry out for its repetition.
So instead of, or in addition to, merely challenging the Republicans to put up or shut up when the Deficit Reduction commission comes out with actual reduction proposals, Obama could have again blistered the Republicans before the media for blocking efforts to sustain the economy and prevent more people from being layed off. As Krugman and friends note, budget-strapped states are imposing austerity and crippling the US recovery exactly the same way Europe’s individual nations are proposing to do over the Administration’s objections.
But what do I know? Being merely an unknown, brainless straw man spared me the ridicule of an official from the Richmond Federal Reserve, who arrogantly chastised everyone from Matthew Yglesias to Paul Krugman and Brad DeLong, because these unworthy souls have no business opining on macroeconomics — read: they should not be arguing that more stimulus is needed and that austerity is both cruel and bad economic policy now — because, uh, economics is hard.
Writers who have not taken a year of Ph.D. coursework in a decent economics department (and passed their Ph.D. qualifying exams) cannot meaningfully advance the discussion on economic policy…
Brad DeLong is more patient than I:
I am speechless. Economics–like math–is not that hard. And just as one should ignore Malibu Barbie when she tells one not to try to do math so, I think, one should ignore Kartik Athreya.
I’m not worried about DeLong losing his voice. I suspect he and others who actually got it mostly right will eventually recover to remind those who are lecturing him and Krugman and friends that those economists who were in charge got it mostly wrong, probably because of their particular PhD training in economics.
The grownups in charge back then claimed they knew what they were doing, even though they couldn’t see an $8 trillion housing bubble, didn’t think it was a problem, didn’t think the Federal Reserve or anyone else should do anything about it, didn’t want states enforcing laws against lending fraud, didn’t think the shadow banking system and its fraudulent CDO/CDS trading were a systemic threat that required intervention, didn’t realize major banks/investment banks had become too big to fail/reform/control, and believed deep in their souls despite all evidence to the contrary that financial markets were self correcting . . . and then watched helplessly as the financial system collapsed and took the economy and millions of people, their homes, their jobs, their savings down with it.
Economics can seem hard to non-economists, but it doesn’t take a PhD economist to recognize the last 30 years of ruling economic advisers and their apologists should never be trusted again. So the fact too many of them are still influential tells us the problem is much deeper than "economics is hard."
John Chandley (not an economist, though some of my best friends . . .)
Economics made easier:
Dean Baker explains economics to Robert Samuelson and shows the US et al are not about to exceed their debt capacity
Brad DeLong, expanding on Krugman, also explains the US et al are not about to exceed their debt capacity.
Brad DeLong, Is Macroeconomics hard?



81 Comments







I haven’t had an economics course in my life, but I would put up my record on the housing bubble, the meltdown, the recession, the spike in oil prices, the failure of Obama’s economic policies, the failure of financial reform, and my own prediction of depression in 2011 made something like 18 months ago up against any of these guys, Krugman and DeLong included. I wrote last night or actually early this morning that I was surprised that Krugman was coming out as he was. He still got the recent history wrong, but this was an advance over what he has done in the past. The question as always with Krugman is if he will now stick to this analysis or if he will backtrack into Establishment conformity has he has done in the past.
Ah nothing like a bunch of folly coddlers masquerading as Masters of the Universe.
I’m convinced that most economists and their “dismal science” call it the dismal science because they are so abysmal in their predictions.
Folly coddlers and practitioners of a dismal science truly deserve each other if they weren’t causing the rest of the world to suffer for their idiocy.
Excellent report. My biggest concern now is that the “Long Depression” will be like a longstanding dull toothache rather than acute appendicitis. Not painful enough to compel real and lasting change. We’ll all just trudge along, shrugging our shoulders and resigned to endless crappiness.
Your report underlines what a commenter said about O a few weeks ago: The man simply will not lead.
I actually spent most of my career working with economists, good friends, most of them tremendously insightful and always willing to spend time explaining how they think about problems. Also met a few, also with PhDs, who seemed to be dangerous charlatans and perfectly willing to sell bogus notions for the right price, but it doesn’t say that on their degrees.
Great article. But what are we to do, stuck with a political apparatus wedded to the same academic-corporate-military ties, and unable to self-correct?
Working, as I do, in a field where Ph.D.’s (or Ed.D’s, or Psy.D.’s) are required, I can tell you that a Ph.D. may qualify you for a professorship at the University of Laputa, but it doesn’t make you wise.
My father (with his ninth grade formal education who fully supported my mother going back to college and finishing her degree and becoming an English teacher and Librarian) often used the phrase “educated idiots”
Take that, you ruling economic advisors!
People who practice economics are not economists. Economists are mere “academic scribblers” who spin theories not meant for application in actual space and time.
Academic Mercenaries could be applied to those who sell their babblings to the highest bidder.
Oh Swopa, love The Princess Bride!
(I think you mean to compliment scarecrow instead of swopa – not that swopa is undeserving of compliments)
“Economists are mere “academic scribblers” who spin theories not meant for application in actual space and time.”
Best example of the above: John Maynard Keynes.
Keynes was probably just a bit more accurate in the application of his theories than Milton Friedman and the rest of the Chicago school of ‘free marketers’
Since he didn’t have to bow down to Ayn Rand and her nonsense masquerading as ‘economics’
“turns red”
Obama didn’t miss any opportunities. He laid it right out: gut Social Security and Medicare.
He’s an evil, gutless fascist. Nothing more.
It holds for all economists.
I suspect that if O saw that 25 to 30% of us were lying there dying in the roads from starvation, unemployment, homelessness, and lack of medical care, he and his cronies would get right down to work to study how to get the remaining 70% still employed to help get him elected. We do not register anymore as important to these politicians. Only the moneyed people and corporations count.
The reasons the Administration downplayed concerns:
1. Classic Administration approach to policies they endorse is to downplay their support or support it by touting a faux policy and later move to support the original idea.
2. Summers and company love’s them some belt tightening and the Chicago economists “free market” libertarianism.
So we will support the G20 and by doing so cut our throat and head toward the depression Paul Krugman sees, correctly in my opinion, as our future.
I sense a pattern.
For some unexplained reason . . .
methinks if one reads enough of FDL, one will understand the
unexplained
part.
Paul Krugman, quoting Keynes on the hold that austerity measures have on some economists:
“I was trying to come up with an explanation of the curious insistence that we’re facing an imminent interest rate and/or inflation crunch; then I realized that John Maynard Keynes had already done that, in explaining the hold classical economics retained on thought despite its obvious inability to account for the Great Depression:”
More on why too many ascribe the pain caucus; Krugman from two months ago.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/31/opinion/31krugman.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss
Having our theories here doesn’t always explain why they do things that seem inconsistent with what they claim to believe. There had been a series of speeches and statements lately from various Admin officials pushing the same thing: more spending now, more savings later, and budget reductions later depend on a full recover now.
AARRGGHHH!!! I’m a degreed mathematician, and that’s bunk. Studying a little statistics and pretending to understand calculus, then applying that to a system designed to screw the little guy out of his money isn’t science, it’s fraud. The magical mantras of economics are nothing more than poorly-understood calculus used to successfully defraud people, primarily because the victims of this have no understanding of what they are being sold – down the river.
The math is abysmally shallow. Not even C level work in graduate school, and that’s abysmal.
It’s not difficult to understand that punishing people isn’t leadership. It doesn’t take a Ph.D. in BS to understand fraud is being masqueraded as policy.
There ought to be a law, but that might hurt little Buffy’s precious inheritance.
Serious questions: Has there ever been a time that fiscal austerity actually pulled a failing economy back from the brink of depression, or reduced the severity of a recession? Also, if the answer to the first question is yes, how does that economy stack up in terms of the structure of said economy to current economies in Europe and the USA?
I ask because I truly do not know and would like to think that if so many politicians actually favored a scheme like austerity that they would have some example to which they can point that shows their intent to impose austerity measures actually did not make things worse for the people of their nation.
I’d genuinely like a serious answer to these questions, because my impression is that the only examples of austerity measures making things better show that things are only better for the small segment at the top of the economy but the rest of the economy suffers drastic reductions in employment, living conditions and general welfare.
I don’t think such an economy exists or has ever existed but that’s not the point for those who push the austerity programs.
Their point is to assume that all the folks in need of jobs and support are total incompetents or free loaders just hanging out in our worthless lives.
When they start from that premise, it makes it difficult for them to have a goal that would allow help for those of us who are “not worthy” of such support
I don’t have an answer for you. But I am wondering; isn’t the essential cause of a depression is the simple folk running out of money/sometimes labor to be plundered by the powerful wealthy. It makes sense that in those times the wealthy react by hoarding their wealth and venting their anger at less income on the now impoverished ordinary people.
So much wealth has been distributed to the elites that the depression will continue. Unless something like discovering gold comes along to enrich some new people it is inevitable that there will be a redistribution. Hopefully by an activist government and not the “second amendment” solution.
Austrians are convinced that loose monetary policy (low interest, quantitative easing) will cause inflation eventually. They’re terrified of hyper-inflation and think that’s the end result of stimulus spending. Everything is looked at as congruent to policy in the early Weimar republic.
And it’s Austrians that are calling for Austerity.
In a recent post at his blog, Krugman reviews some recent cases —in Canada, Finland, Denmark, Ireland, and Sweden— that austerity proponents (catfooders?) cite as proof that economic growth results from cutting government budgets during hard times.
He says they share a common feature that keeps them from convincing him, that being that all these countries replaced the spending that was lost in their home economies because of the budget cuts, with exports (spending by foreigners).
But in our present situation, many countries who have major trade among themselves would be trying to manage austerity at the same time. So who is supposed to come to the rescue with all the necessary makeup spending?
Catfooders seldom point out the foreign trade background that Krugman does, of course. I think that’s not only because it makes their policy look impractical for the present time, as Krugman shows, but also because it suggests —though admittedly does not prove— that the Keynesian prescription might be positively correct.
“…we have to solve ‘the entitlements problems’ in Medicare/Medicaid and Social Security.”
No, we have to solve our bank/business/rich bastard entitlement problems.
Does any one believe they will not be renewed?
When the EMP flash over happens the party will be all fucking over anyway.
who came up with the G20, and who gave it the power to decide anything? I’d like to read a story like that…
Thanks for the link.
Thank you, all. It appears that my belief that money has to flow, both into (from either government spending or external sources) and through (what I believe FDR called the velocity of money) an economy for the economy to grow was correct.
I suppose that the next question that follows is how do we force money into the economy, or to flow through the economy, bearing in mind that businesses simply do not create jobs for the sake of creating jobs (that is, there must be some demand for their products or services that exceeds the capability of their current employees to meet before they add jobs).
I’m also looking for thoughts on wmd1961′s comment on hyper-inflation and the causes of it in post-WWI Austria & Germany (I was under the impression that the sucking of money OUT of their economies was the proximate cause, not loose monetary policy, but I’d like some input from others).
Blowing out the U.S. federal balance sheet on spending has produced little bang for the buck. The Keynesian notion that $1 of spending produces $1.50 in growth is a myth. That $1 in spending has to come from somewhere, which means higher taxes or borrowing from productive parts of the private economy. Given that so much of the U.S. stimulus went for transfer payments such as Medicaid and unemployment insurance, the “multiplier” has almost certainly been negative.
While some stimulus was justified and an increase in the deficit was understandable and inevitable, permanent tax cuts aimed at marginal individual and corporate tax rates would have done far more to create a climate that encouraged businesses to tap into their vast cash reserves to expand and grow. But of course such policies are an anethema to progressives and Dems in general.
We are told that Congress must continue to spend and borrow until the architects of our current policy say it is time to raise taxes to reduce the huge deficits and debt that their spending has produced. Meanwhile, individuals and businesses are supposed to be unaffected by the prospect of future tax increases, higher interest rates, and more government control over nearly every area of the economy.
Dems have no idea what to do now that the world has figured out that Keynesian economics is a dead-end.
Instead of hiking taxes, we could cut them, especially those that discourage risk-taking at high levels, like capital-gains taxes. Instead of burdening American firms in the global market with the highest tax rates and threats to tax foreign income, which would put American firms at a tremendous competitive disadvantage in international markets, we could slim down and streamline the tax burden to enhance competitiveness. Finally, instead of looking for ways to make energy more expensive and therefore make a recovery less likely, we could unleash American ingenuity in getting our own energy resources into play and create hundreds of thousands of high-paying jobs while keeping more of our money here at home.
Instead of having government intervene in markets to conduct populist social engineering, the government could return to its rightful role as a purely regulatory agency.
Our government should NOT be able to benefit politically or financially from their regulation and oversight but as we have seen, via Franklin Raines with Fannie Mae, Stanley Greenberg with BP, and the cozy relationship between Goldman Sachs and this administration ‘crony capitalists’ cannot be the honest regulators we need. When we allow our government to bail out a failing car company to keep jobs of favored union constituents, or deem certain businesses ‘too big too fail’ we have ceased to allow truly free market mechanisms for self correction to work.
The system we have now does not resemble the free markets of Freidman and Rand. It is something closer to socialism, facism or some type of looting.
Given that “cut taxes to stimulate the economy” was the entire rationale for the Bush tax cuts and those eight years left us with the lowest rate of job creation since WWII and probably the lowest since the start of the 20th century (I’m too lazy at the moment to actually verify that but I think I’m close), I’d say that tired talking point has been pretty well discredited.
Not that facts have ever stood in you way.
economies which are experiencing growth, admittedly precious few, do not and will not accept the dictats of photo-op summits – they will continue to do what they deem to be in their strategic interests and that’s politics
it might be fashionable to proclaim one’s utter ignorance of ‘economics’ as an academic discipline or of economic history as the most, if not the only, reliable epirical data source for validation of its hypotheses (aka tinman), none of this changes the political environment where meaningful policies can be developed or implemented – perhaps this is karma as the developed world relinquishes its development on the altar of ideology and thus unconsciously contributes towards righting some of the inequalities of the imperial colonial era that lasted for more than two centuries
I’ll take a wild stab and guess you haven’t read Keynes’ book. I am reading it now, and I bet you could read it and understand his thinking. You might not be so quick to disrespect his thinking if you were willing to do that.
Indie, see my comment 38. I’m even more certain you haven’t read Keynes. Give it a shot.
Stephen Hawking wrote in the preface to he excellent book A Brief History of Time that his publisher told him that every equation in the book would cut his readers by 50%. Oddly, there aren’t that many equations in Keynes’ book, but I fear he cut out too many readers.
Until the banks take the losses, nothing will improve. They’re trying to prevent that by sucking all of our blood to feed themselves. It will only delay the inevitable, and make it worse.
Burn Burn Yes, You’re Gonna Burn.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tu1wAP2Baco
The fact of the matter is that the US government cannot create wealth. It can only borrow or tax to generate revenue. It creates nothing. It is limited in its ability to create cradle to grave entitlements in so far as that eventually governments ‘run out of other people’s money.’
There is over $1 Trillion in private capital sitting on the sidelines during this recession and businesses and investors have ZERO incentive to grow, expand and create jobs and wealth with the prospect of higher taxes and tighter regulation that protects the administration and congressional favorites.
Keynesian economics is a dead end and the US, coming late to the EU style, social democratic agenda is also late in realizing that spending money you do not actually have causes the economy to actually grow less.
It’s a worthwhile question, and there’s an ongoing debate about the examples being cited. The deficit hawks say, look at country X and country Y, where after a period of austerity, economic growth resumes. Krugman and DeLong have, in my view, systemically debunked these arguments, pointing out that in each case, the economic recovery was driven by other factors — expanding trade, the ability to lower interest rates, etc — and helped spur recovery nothwithstanding the contraction in government spending.
If you read through posts the last couple of weeks at their blogs, you’ll find several contributions (and other links) to that discussion. The conclusion they reach is that when you’re in a situation of near zero interest rates (check), when inflation is not the problem (check) (but deflation could be [check]) and your prospects for expanding exports are poor because others are devaluing (check), then other stimulus measures are the right/best answer. But if you instead impose fiscal cutbacks and austerity in the face of those conditions, you’re just punishing people, hurting economic growth and not doing anything that creates the confidence the hawks claim is the basis for renewed growth.
So none of the examples of growth through causing self-inflicted pain appear to support that argument.
I don’t have any desire for the federal government to “create wealth.”
I want some level of support from the government that will allow me and the millions of others like me, how are un or underemployed to earn a small living and stay alive.
So since we KNOW that tax cuts do not truly create jobs and growth and you contend that the government spending money to help stimulate things does not work, what is your solution?
You see, Keynesian economics DOES have a benefit. If I have a government supported job, I can pay for a car which might help the auto companies stay in business. I can visit the local book store. Or amybe instead of a new car, I can use my job to pay for the needed car repairs or visit an optometrist or dentist. It puts money in their pockets so they can pay their staff who can pay for their needs.
All the tax cuts you so love do is put money in the pockets of the uber rich who then gamble it away so the folks in DC can bail them out.
Contrary to what anti-Keynesians devoutly believe with practically religious fervor, he fact is, governments create money without taxing or borrowing every day. It’s call printing, or having your central bank purchase Treasury bonds. The notion you can only tax or borrow is proven wrong by what governments actually do. You can argue whether this is good or bad policy, how inflationary or not it might be (it’s not when the risks of inflations are near zero, as they are today), but you can’t claim governments can’t do what they plainly do. At least start with the known facts.
Wealth is only created by the sun, or dug out of the ground. Profit is not wealth creation, but exploitation of that.
Give us one example of a private person or corp that created wealth.
The earth is our wealth and we are giving it away to carnival barkers.
The earth belongs to all the people and governments are intended to represent all of the people.
Most business is predicated on convincing someone who has money of labor to give it up.
What’s wrong with this picture?
There are two sides to the debate and while I do see some merit for government stimulus when business lack the ability to invest, we have reached a deficit to GDP ratio that is quickly becoming unsustainable. In France the debt to GDP ratio is 92%, 82% for Germany and 83% for Britain. In Greece the debt to GDP ratio is a staggering 123%.
We have simply reached the limits of government spending as effective stimulus. As Europe looks to cut spending to avoid Greece’s fate we refuse to heed the warning. Why?
What makes us immune to the problems now confronting Europe? Nothing. Private sector growth and investment is preactically non existent. How do you hope to get that money to flow into the economy? By taxing it, regulating it, levying fines and funneling it through our corrupt and inefficient federal government?
Any responsible person knows that creating a negative environment hostile to business will cause businesses to hoard their cash, weather the storm and wait for the winds to change. It is human nature.
It is a very long way from Reagan-era talking points to practical understanding of the real economy. Please try taking one step on that journey.
” But if you instead impose fiscal cutbacks and austerity in the face of those conditions, you’re just punishing people, hurting economic growth and not doing anything that creates the confidence the hawks claim is the basis for renewed growth”
You are telling me that there is aboslutely NO ROOM for cuts in the federal bugdet. That is absurd. A government willing to put itself on a fiscal diet would signal to businesses, investors and consumers a willingness to explore all methods necessary to create economic growth. It would show us that our government ‘get’s it.’ “Become the change you want to see.”
LOL. You are an ideologue.
LOL.
That’s not what he’s telling you, nice try making things up though. The crux of the matter is that ‘spending’ is going to Fannie and Freddie, free money for the banks, and wars. NONE of which helps anyone but bankers and offence contractors, and the military. You want to cut education, or programs to feed kids for that, buddy?
Yes, but there is a serious deflationary risk to endlessly printing money. You know that as well as I do and my comments still stand. Government spending can only transfer wealth. Printing money does not equal creating wealth where as builing a company that provides goods or services at a profit does in fact create the wealth that gives the money it’s value. If there is no value behind the bonds, no one will by them and our currency becomes wothless. Like it or not the PRIVATE sector in the engine of world economies.
Fine.
Let’s cut the two unfounded wars of choice, close all the overseas military installations, cut the aide to governments in the ME used mainly for military hardware purchases, stop giving tax credits to businesses that off-shore jobs, stop giving tax credits to businesses that incorporate in tax havens like the Cayman Islands and stop paying Ag subsidies to corporate farms (while calling it saving “family farms.”
That should help cut down some significant levels of waste int he government.
LOL!
Good job there, very convincing.
“Like it or not the PRIVATE sector in the engine of world economies.”
No, without demand they’re fucked.
Still waiting for you to give us an example of a single private business that actually creates wealth?
Hard to argue against that list, innit Indie?
LOL.
Hint: Individual humans who make themselves of value to the world and its creatures are I think as close as one can get in creating wealth. Notice the phrase:
I said nothing of the sort. Read my comment again. Nowhere does it claim there are no opportunities for cutting spending. Of course there are. And there are spending cuts I would support, like subsidies for nukes and coal and oil and big Ag and PhRMA, etc. But that’s not the subject of the post or the comment you apparently misunderstood.
We’re not even discussing the merits of alternative cuts. We’re talking about whether aggregate federal spending should decline or fall relative to revenues, and whether reduced spending to balance the budgets AT THIS TIME is good or bad policy.
Indie, I do not know what you do or have done, but it’s pretty obvious you are not a business owner. If I have an idea to start a profitable business, I’ll do it without regard to tax consequences. After all, it is only profits that are taxed. I’d love to be in a position to pay a million dollars in income taxes, because that’d mean I made a profit of much more than that.
The attitude you espouse is that of a greedy and selfish person, unwilling to pay for the benefits of the society that made his sucess possible.
The concern of budget hawks is not that printing more money is “deflationary.” Their concern is the opposite; that more money will reduce its value and cause inflation of prices for goods and services. But there is no evidence that this concern is valid NOW, when measured inflation is under 1% and the market is providing no signals suggesting higher inflation expectations for the future.
Again, you can keep insisting that government cannot create money, but it does, every day. Treasury can issue bonds, the Fed “buys” them and credits the Treasury’s account — that “creates money.” They do this every day. I recognize this is difficult to acknowledge when you’ve been told it’s not possible, and it doesn’t match how a household has to think about it’s own moeny. But that analogy is wrong. Unlike a household, a government’s central bank can and does create money. One of the reasons the economy didn’t completely collapse during the financial crisis is because the Fed did this and stood ready to create trillions more if needed.
You really do get “Everything Wrong!” Printing money isn’t deflationary,it’s potentially inflationary. Try to think. Try really hard. If you print money and the supply of goods and services stays constant, you have more money to purchase those goods and services, pushing up prices. But we aren’t seeing inflation. Nor are we seeing signs that investors find the dollar worthless. The first sign will be rapidly rising interest rates. The fact that the U.S. government can borrow nearly for free demonstrates that the all knowing market you believe in doesn’t believe in you.
The current problem isn’t too many dollars chasing too few goods (inflation), its consumers lacking money to buy enough to support the productive capacity of the global economy (recession.)
Those commenting on the irrelevance of Keynes to real markets might want to explain why he was an extraordinarily successful private investor.
We met up with marchan this weekend (Naturally we just sat down somewhere that just happened to be next to marchan) and we found ourselves in agreement that you are one cool customer in laying out logically what is in the face of adversity. And this is in reply to all of your other posts here and elsewhere.
I don’t recall Obama EVER saying he was going to ‘gut’ Soc Sec or Medicare. Perhaps you would care to put up or shut up by offering a link to something he said.
I think you’re mixing up Obama with the Republican leader you hope to replace him with when you refer to heartless bastard fascist.
Err, from the article at the top of the thread.
“adding that we have to solve “the entitlements problems” in Medicare/Medicaid and Social Security.”
He also stated that he was going to assassinate American citizens directly with hit squads just like a fascist bastard would.
Hmm.
“ZERO incentive to grow, expand and create jobs and wealth with the prospect of higher taxes and tighter regulation”
What ‘prospect’ of higher taxes? I know of no Obama plan to raise taxes. And, since when has a couple of percentage points of tax rate change had such an effect on business leaders?
The regulation should delight them since it is aimed at preventing a handful of players from rigging things and blowing up everyone’s investments. By creating a resolution authority there is also less danger of players trying the same kind of scam (as we’ve just seen) again.
No, I see no real reason (so far) that business leaders should hold back.
I could argue for enforcement of an existing law which requires divestment of profits to stockholders, but that would only go into the hands of the Rich who would likely sit on it. The better argument would be to tax property for the simple purpose of letting people know that they can use it or lose it. I have yet to recommend that though. I dislike the idea (which our SCOTUS has supported ! ) of government commandeering property for some greater, but not well-defined, good. Maybe someone should claim Roberts home & property for the purpose of increasing economic activity by putting up an amusement park. It would be more productive than the Conservatively radical Court.
Uh huh, most people’s 401k’s are invested in stock funds. You’d have people’s financial interests aligned with BP’s and Citibank’s. We’d have a kleptocracy of people defrauding themselves.
Oh wait. We have that now…
Your translation (to be gentle) of ‘to solve’ into ‘to gut’ is hardly correct.
The other statement is gratuitous garbage which doesn’t relate to the conversation about economics.
Republicans just keep wishing for an evil fascist bastard leader and the confuse their buy with Obama. They had Dubya, but I guess he just wasn’t really into it, so they need another go ’round.
“Your translation (to be gentle) of ‘to solve’ into ‘to gut’ is hardly correct.”
Yes, but that was the semantical pin you were dancing on, I just thought I’d join you. Obama is just as much a fascist as Bush, but he talks nice so you ignore it. I’m bored of the schtick, really.
Ah, thanks for that report. Glad you were able to get together.
I appreciate the effort to keep the discussion on the post, and not on gratuitous stuff.
I am not an economist, much less the PhDed variety. My own PhD, in another discipline, taught me not to assume that a PhD in any particular subject is in any way a measure of an individual’s reliability. But the fundamentals of economics seem so obvious to me that I tend to assume that the Powers and Principalities of Wall Street, the Fed, the Treasury, and the G20 understand it at least as well as I do. It can’t be that economics is too hard for them. So, if they are courting economic disaster, I can only conclude that economic disaster is exactly what they want.
This seems counter intuitive in economic terms. Economics is all about increasing the wealth of nations, floating all boats, and making a better world. But, in political terms, deliberate economic sabotage makes some sense.
Political power depends not on the wealth of a society, but on the distribution of wealth. In Haiti, El Salvador, or rural India, moderate wealth gives a few the power of life and death over the many. In this country, 30+ years of economic decline have no doubt eroded our standard of living and our nation’s place in the world. But those years have also produced the greatest concentration of wealth in the smallest number of hands that this country has seen in a century, if not in its entire history. Economic decline for the nation as a whole has vastly increased the power of a few. The sums involved give the tiny clique that controls them the power to control the legislative, executive, and judicial branches of our government.
So why would the moneyed Übermenschen of our day EVER want to reverse this trend? The world gets poorer. But, by comparison and in their own eyes at least, they are richer than ever and, more importantly, more powerful. Power is what super wealth is about. You can only drive so many Rollers and Maseratis, bed so many bimbos and toy boys, sail so many yachts, and live in so many houses. After a point, you can only gamble so much away. But you can never have too much power, and, as every American knows, money talks.
The struggle for economic recovery is thus no less than the struggle for the Republic. We need to break the banks, tax the rich, confiscate the inheritances, and level the playing field. Nothing less will do. Because this time, there is no New World to which our children can flee.
Scarecrow, they rarely print money anymore. Instead they just mark up accounts in the non-Government sector. Bernanke told us so.
Right. Not like a Household at all. See here.
That is Ron Paul’s plan! I believe he put a patent on that so you are going to have to donate to the Campaign for Liberty. They are collecting for a legal fight against the FEC.
I like the Austrian school. It seems much more honest and stable than other ideas. I argue a lot for its ideals. I observe that any idea rests upon its real world application. Starting from today, applying the Austrian solution, would be very painful for this country and would turn everything upside down. I think that Austrian’s understand this. It is common sense. I have heard a lot from them explaining there ideals, which I believe in, but I have heard little in effective solutions today. IMO there is a large wave of deflation ahead. Austrian economics does little to stand in the way of this. That is in a way their solution to get it over with.
It is very unfair to that system when the rival current system had the opportunity to run everything into the ground, get resurrected (S&L and dotcomm (stimulus and artificially low rates)), and then repeat. Over and over and over. Then to just say…ok lets bring on the Austrian school to save the day…It does not work like that. I understand where a lot of people are pissed at the Keynesians and discredit the stimulus method. Really it is no change from the last crisis just pushing the gas pedal further! It seems so wrong….yet do we have any choice? I still debate that.
Ron Paul talks of the weening off of social spending every once in a while. He admits that if he were president he would not be able to just start cutting social programs. If he even had the ability to get it through congress it would take a long time to reform the current government. People depend on social welfare spending. Many retirements depend on social security as the main supplement.
I have a new saying. I am an Austrian in a rational world and I am a socialist when not given a choice. Let us hope that we all have that choice over the next couple years!
Translations aside, Obama did put Social Security on the table in front of a Wallstreet crowd(Robert Rubin etc) at the Hamilton Project back in 2006. It’s on Youtube if you want to listen to his pitch.
Obama at the Hamilton Project, 2006
Add to that Obama’s creation of a deficit commission stacked with benefit cutters and it starts to become difficult to think that Obama is protecting Social Security.
While it might not be possible to out crazy the Republicans, the Democrats certainly seem to be making significant efforts to keep up with the Joneses/Republicans.
I did take a couple of intro economics courses years ago… still, we all live “economics” every day, as we we struggle to stretch our ends to make them meet our means.
One does not require any kind of Ph.D. curriculum to know that when so many people are out of work that the economy cannot recover. Nor can tax revenue.
Austerity measures serve only one purpose: to make those who are already struggling feel even poorer than they already are. What good is there in that? How American is that? Not much and not very, from where I sit?
If tackling the deficit really is such a worthy goal, how about tackling it by cutting back on the Pentagon’s budget? In fact, Robert Gates appears to have some suggestions on exactly how to do that.
I mean “print money” only as shorthand. I assume the physical printing is primarily to replace worn out currency and to meet the demand for physical currency in the real economy. I view the “creation” part as little more than a couple of keystrokes and a slight wiggling of elusive electrons.
I like your prescription, dakine01! Couldn’t have said it better; they’re certainly my priorities. Great beginning.
Now, how can we make that happen. Was startled to see there is a Rep Lowey (?) who is refusing to proceed with war money until ==== can’t remember the action demanded, but I thought, way to go girl; stay standing in that position of defiance, I’ll pray that you are joined by others to refuse the status quo, the unjust destructive positions that I find so morally objectionable, as well as being just plain stupid.
Then there’s our anti-war Floridian hero who’s keeping the pressure on in Congress and with endless appeals to us progressives for dollars to finance his campaign. And bless our great hero Kucinich for his anti-warm anti-capitalism corruption stances.
Little by little the crack seems to be widening and extended and one begins to have unfathomable hope that some real change might be possible.
And then I am jarred back toward hopelessness, waiting tremulously for another sign of hope.
Thanks Scarecrow for another great and immensely clarifying post and comments. Thanks Masaccio for your great comments.
blessings