I can’t wait for Ross Douthat to address the "myth" that Republican Tea Party candidates are completely clueless about the U.S. Constitution, never mind huge chunks of US history. Perhaps he can start with Christine O’Donnell’s surprise at hearing that the doctrine of separation of church and state emanates from the First Amendment’s "establishment clause" and was put there at the insistence of early conservative Christians, among others.
My handy pocket version, a gift from the American Civil Liberties Union, a group whose function is to defend the freedoms and personal rights in the Constitution, quotes the 1st Amendment as follows:
AMENDMENT 1
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, or petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
The folks who first ratified the Constitution did so on the condition that this first and possibly most important of the Bill of Rights would be quickly added to the new framework to make sure that the new Government they were creating respected profound and essential constraints on its power to force any person what to believe, profess, write, publish and say. No one who doesn’t understand these foundational Amendments has any business exercising the powers of a U.S. Senator.
But here’s Delaware Tea Party-Republican Senate candidate, Christine O’Donnell, revealing in a debate she doesn’t have a clue. Via AP at HuffPost:
The exchange came in a debate before an audience of legal scholars and law students at Widener University Law School, as O’Donnell criticized Democratic nominee Chris Coons’ position that teaching creationism in public school would violate the First Amendment by promoting religious doctrine.
Coons said private and parochial schools are free to teach creationism but that "religious doctrine doesn’t belong in our public schools."
"Where in the Constitution is the separation of church and state?" O’Donnell asked him.
When Coons responded that the First Amendment bars Congress from making laws respecting the establishment of religion, O’Donnell asked: "You’re telling me that’s in the First Amendment?"
Her comments, in a debate aired on radio station WDEL, generated a buzz in the audience.
PBS has been running a fascinating history called God in America: How religious liberty shaped America. One of the episodes describes how the establishment and free exercise clauses of the 1st Amendment came to be.
It’s a long story, not merely of religious intolerance and persecution in Europe — the common school book version we learned as kids — but more importantly, a history of how Jews, Catholics, evangelist Christians, fundamentalists and others demanded the right to believe and worship as they chose even though the established Anglican Church in some American colonies often sought to suppress and exclude competing faiths.
For example, Baptists were not allowed to practice in some Southern colonies, because Anglicans used the power of the state to maintain a privileged and exclusive status. The Baptists sought Thomas Jefferson’s help securing religious freedom from oppression by the established church, which banned their meetings and ministries and imprisoned their early preachers.
Like all other faiths, Baptists needed not only the right to practice their religion, but an assurance that the Anglicans, or whatever religion dominated the state, did not use the power of the state to discriminate against them and other sects. And they particularly didn’t want the new federal government to establish or prefer a dominant religion, because the preferred sect would use government to harass, ban and even criminalize other sects. Making sure that no particular religion, no matter how popular, could use government that way became the basis for prohibiting the establishment of any religion — what came later to be called, the wall of separation of church and state.
Christine O’Donnell is hardly the only Tea Party candidate either ignorant of or confused by the U.S. Constitution while claiming to be staunch defenders. In fact, there’s very little about the Constitution that Tea Party candidates actually accept.
During this campaign, we’ve seen Tea Party/Republicans tell us they firmly believe in the Constitution, but they don’t mean that in the usual sense. They believe in the 1st Amendments’s free exercise clause, except when they’re telling Muslims where they can’t worship; the Establishment clause doesn’t mean anything and government can impose their preferred religious views in public schools; the First Amendment is fine for them, but not for you. Freedom of the press means private guards can arrest and handcuff reporters asking candidates questions in public buildings. The Second Amendment does not include the phrase, "a well regulated militia . . ."
They’ve never heard of the Fourth Amendment, because it’s okay for government to spy on its citizens without cause or court warrants. The Fifth Amendment apparently doesn’t preclude torture and forced confessions or using those in criminal trials, not does its due process clause apply to people or their private property; it apparently only protects corporations foreclosing on your house. And the Sixth Amendment’s right to a speedy trial doesn’t apply to people whom we label terrorists. The 14th Amendment as it applies to states is similarly up for grabs.
But it’s not just the Bill of Rights they selectively believe in. They don’t have a problem with the expansion of executive power way beyond it’s terms, as long as the President is not a Democrat, liberal or black man. The founders gave the Congress extensive powers, but the Tea Party/Republicans can’t stand the commerce clause, unless it’s interpreted by Justices who thought child labor laws were an infringement on the sanctity of contracts and free enterprise; they can’t find the "necessary and proper" clause and give no credit to the Preamble’s mandate to "promote the general welfare."
Having ignored some of the most important provisions of the Constitution, it then becomes possible for them to read into the 10th Amendment everything they oppose. Thus the federal government can’t protect workers, can’t set minimum wages, can’t regulate businesses when they pollute or commit fraud, can’t establish a system of national health insurance (even if purchased from private insurers), and can’t provide social security. But just in case government tries, let’s take the Senate out of democracy and repeal the 17th Amendment, and while we’re at it, let’s make sure the government can’t collect an income tax.
These people are free to advocate for a different form of government, but they shouldn’t be believed when they claim that what they prefer bears any resemblance to the U.S. Constitution. They just don’t believe in that.



46 Comments







I think for a lot of the folks like O’Donnell, the “Constitution” = 2nd & 10th Amendments at best. The rest is just “pieces of paper”
Isn’t it amazing how far ahead the Founding Fathers could see? What a document – reaching down the ages to guide us.
Christian Family Values Compassionate Conservative President Dubya called the Constitution “a goddamned piece of paper”.
The sad thing is that her ignorance won’t phase her supporters. It’s all a cult of personality.
Actually, there is a basis for separation of church and state that despite insisting she has ‘faith’, O’Donnell and many of her like forget. In the Bible, their Christ forgoes earthly power and a kingdom on earth, saying “Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s and unto God the things that are God’s”. Sadly, along with mercy, kindness and charity, the right wing likes to ignore those things among their religion’s teachings that do not give them rights they haven’t earned and powers they can’t handle.
thom hartmann is spectacular on this issue
from here
a spectacular portion is the portion where he comments on muslims
and it goes on, it is an incredible read
o/t
tivo alert – Karl Denninger to join Dylan Ratigan to discuss why tea partiers aren’t up in arms (as their sh* says they should) over the Fraudclosure catastrophe
What most people assume is that all these ‘events’ are important and somehow significant, even life and death, questions of responsibility and commitment. These are the ‘pits, holes, knots, mazes, conundrums, etc.’ to which we are obligated, or so some would like you to believe. Yet when therapeutically examined, these ‘necessary things’ are our own creation and generally not positive or beneficial to anyone except those people who stand to benefit financially or otherwise. On the contrary, there seems to be some perversity operating. In the face of some semblance of stability, tea baggers create the conflict that dogs them. When presented with the idea that they don’t necessarily have to suffer, they scoff and protest…”life is suffering and constant battle against the forces of evil.” “Okay,” I respond, “but let’s agree that that is your view and your choice, not an external reality.”
Tea baggers and other easily manipulated tools respond to all this as if there was no other choice. Whenever they feel that there are no alternatives in their self-made stressful situation, they feel doubly trapped…trapped by circumstances and by their lack of options. This is when the ‘normal’ neurotic among them go into more significant psychological dysfunction. A sub-diagnosis of this process is that by attending to the constant chaos of earning a living and the occasional crisis of life’s tragedies, they avoid the real issues. That is, the existential conflicts that haunt us all, the things that are really buggin’ us. And while it’s good for us to understand these people who have different values, stepping into the rotted pork stew of their lives gives us more grist for our philosophic mill. The Nazi numbskulls that tag along at their “parties” play their parts well. My only salient reaction is; What the hell do you see in them that probably isn’t there?” They live with the pain of their choices. And that’s why they stigmatize those around them, the “other”, in refutation of the fact that they are having to live with the choices they have made.
Drug or alcohol enhanced paranoia is a part of the diagnostic paradigm. I am always fascinated how isolated we become after our teenage years. What happens is a process of faulty thinking being confirmed because we either don’t present our ideas to a critical public, or we reject any criticism, as is the same problem that continually dogs the tea baggers. Rather they hold these half-baked “ideas” to the little rodent of their psyches which runs the Mobius wheel of their egos. One of the most common statements mentioned by neighbors after they pull the bullet riddled body of the sniper from the top of the water tower, “He was a good neighbor, though I never talked to him, he seemed to keep to himself. He kept his lawn mowed. He put a flag out on 4th of July.”
Someone should inform Scalia of the details of the Constitution as well.
Interesting commentary; this may not be the only “money quote,” but it bears repearting.
Authoritarian personalities seemed destined for manipulation, especially by easily they leap into victimizing themselves over the self-induced perception of attacking “enemies.” The use of fear to manipulate and brainwash is well documented (sorry no links, but it is). Hence, the corporations who pay off RushGlennSarah to constantly scream: scary scary fear fear… they are the evil Greek chorus pushing this nonsense along.
Rightwingers truly don’t give a sh*t about the Constitution, the Bill of Rights or what the Founding Fathers or Ronald Reagan truly thought or meant about anything. They only listen to the siren songs of RushGlennSarah… and oh what a song they sing….
Maybe I’m just feeling over generous, but I almost feels sorry for her. The crowd was laughing at her and she was just smiling away. And, that little cheeks puffed out – really, the 1st amendment, who knew – face? The media is going to have a field day with this.
O’Donnell has no chance of winning, right? The polling in Nevada, showing that there’s widespread support for Angle, on the other hand, is very disturbing. And then there’s Miller in Alaska…
It just goes to show how badly the Democrats have disappointed the American people since taking power.
‘The use of fear to manipulate and brainwash is well documented (sorry no links, but it is).’
You want lots of examples, go read “Age of Anxiety” – I’m right now deep into McCarthyism, it’s all about the Red Scare, an early version of teabaggage.
The ugly head of organized religion. Responsible for more deaths than man can ever comprehend. American secularism is predicated on the application of “reason,” rather than the faith based absolutisms, contained in religious doctrine requiring the abdication of reason, to justify one’s actions. Like a religious whack job who in his twisted religious absolutist-ism, kills.
“Man’s relationship with his god is a private matter, no state or other man has the right to invade.” T.J. BTW this includes the right to believe, in no god at all. Twain you are correct! America’s founders where truly enlightened men. Light years ahead of the dumb asses which putrefy our lives on a daily basis. Beside they risked their lives for there beliefs. When everything is on the line, failure is not an option. It is time to place the restrictions on corporations Madison and Jefferson felt where necessary to protect the republic from the monied interest that have challenge the rule of law a every junction. It might have precluded the cluster fuck we have today! Corporate servitude bought under the color of law! I like these references to the founders. Good stuff!
Thats a remarkable bit of language from Washington Himself, which is always completely ignored by those making the claim that the founders meant for the US to be “Christian Nation”.. In the spirit of Religious dentente here is a remarkable letter Written by the Prohpet Muhhamad himself, and given to the Orthodox Monks of St Catherines monastary in Eygpt. St Catherines is not only the worlds oldest Monastary it is the worlds oldest continuouly inhabited building, and was established in the 5th century.
“This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them.
Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them.
No compulsion is to be on them.
Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries.
No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims’ houses.
Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God’s covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate.
No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight.
The Muslims are to fight for them.
If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray.
Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants.
No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world).”
Islam’s Prohpet (unlike Christ) left written, first person instructions to his folowers.
http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/charter1.html
This is so timely. I heard Barry Lynn last night whose whole focus is this separation issue. A wonderful speech: bottom line we must be vigilant, there are threats, and cited some holdings in the Supreme Ct. when it skirted the separation clause. Plus, all the faith based stuff given to us by W and maintained by O. He left the distinct impression that this clause & what it stands for cannot be taken for granted.
May I suggest that instead of deriding all of organized religion, you specify your complaints to conservative evangelicals and fundamentalists? There are plenty of us progressives who belong to organized religions, who do quite well with reason, who don’t force our beliefs on others, and who don’t fit your stereotype.
Fundamentalists are narrow minded. They project their own beliefs on everyone else. And, not all of them are part of the conservative, evangelical christian movement.
I am not not a follower of one of the “great faiths” of the world but I have been a student of History. Much of the blame that moderns heap on “organized religion” rightfully belongs to imperialists who acted within a pretext of religous belief. This is not just semantic, but is like the civilization of 1200 hence,(if there are any) blaming “organized democracy” for the troubles of the late 20th and early 21st centuries. Our wars of imperialist conquest are not waged on behalf of God anymore, but on behalf of “freedom’ and “democracy” which are to us what God and “salvation” was to the medieval European.
O’Donnell has no clue, won’t win and I won’t defend her statement. It is illustrative of something important, however, and that something is ‘credibility’. Scientists are credible WRT scientific matters but not necessarily economics… economists are credible WRT economics but not necessarily race relations… doctors are credible WRT treatments but not necessarily how society should distribute the costs of those treatments, etc. In most cases, people aren’t even qualified to identify someone who is qualified in a field they have no experience in.
Had Alan Dershowitz been on stage and made the same statement to the same crowd, there would not be gasps or laughter; people would (rightly) listen to what he had to say on the matter. He has earned that respect through his personal intellect and impressive legal resume’. Was he making a point about the phrase itself (which doesn’t appear in the Constitution)? Is he making a point that the First Amendment talks about Congress rather than the states (Massachusetts had a state church until 1833)? Is this a reference to the importance of stare decisis or the 14th Amendment? Maybe he’s making a critical point about the Supreme Court which didn’t address the issue until 1947?
Dershowitz is credible on Constitutional Law in a way that O’Donnell is not. That difference in credibility can transform a statement from utter silliness to an interesting topic. Most Congressmen/women are not credible on most of the topics they pass laws on. Many have no background in economics, science, or business yet feel qualified to write laws that balance the trade-offs in these areas.
When your favorite politician tells you that “this law will be good for America because of X, Y and Z” and they have no experience in any of those matters, try to remember how you feel about O’Donnell’s take on the First Amendment.
Scarecrow, thanks so much for the fantastic review of the constitution, particularly as it stands in relation to the Tea Party’s mindless assertions. You always have the mind to wrap it all up in understandable and very well and relevantly applied terms appropriate for our times.
Little Miss would-be-Delaware-Senator is a pathetic, pathetic human being, as are her colleagues in the tea party electoral processes.
Thanks so much to Perris for the Hartman material and to Solerso for the material from Mohammed vis a vis the Christian convent. What extraordinary documents.
Blessings,
On the video (at 2:51), you can hear the law school debate audience erupting in loud laughter when O’Donnell asks, “Where in the Constitution is the separation of church and state?”
I think once this gets some play in the media even Christine might be surprised at how ignorant she is.
Doubt it. It’s not getting as much play in media as other O’Donnell stories, and nothing could surprise her into seeing reality.
I got news for u friend there is nothing at all funny about these nit wits.
The thing with this video is that O’D's opponent states the language of the first Amandment and O’D raises her eyebrows and smirks a little, dismissing the language as though the language is a librul’s interpretation of the first Amendment rather than the actual law. It’s amazing. It’s a display of defiant ignorance.
REpub females, are they all just plain stupid and ignorant? Where are all the intelligent and thoughtful REpub women? Are they all dead and buried, have lived in previous decades long before the 21st century began? Oy veh…
Roger Williams, a pastor, was banished from the Massachusetts Bay Colony in 1635 for questioning the validity of the Massachusetts Bay charter and challenging their right to regulate religious matters. He purchased land from the Indians and founded Providence, Rhode Island. In 1638, Roger Williams organized the first Baptist church in North America.
Roger Williams wrote a pamphlet in 1652 entitled, “The Bloudy Tenent of Persecution. . .” which discussed separation of church and state. excepts–
Thomas Jefferson and James Madison gave Roger Williams the credit of being the original thought influencer on the first amendment provision for separation of church and state.
That is indeed a thoughtful and generous response to O’Donnell. She is repeating party line thoughts without explaining herself, as if she were talking to people who agreed with her, and there are many, instead of a very knowing crowd.
Nobody knows all there is to know about subjects of legislative interest. I know a lot of law, but when we started on the foreclosure fraud issues, I went back to basics to make sure I knew what I was talking about, and so did my colleagues. I expect congressionals to have staffs who bring them up to speed on the contentious issues, and we need people who are open-minded about those issues instead of people who think they already know the answers but are as ignorant as O’Donnell seemed to be.
Watched a few minutes of Dylan Ratigan’s show on MSNBC this afternoon, but he wasn’t quite up to his usual high standard. He was going on about the Teabagger movement, saying that initially it was against government fraud (bank bailouts). But actually, it was started by racist white REpublicans who hated the idea of actually having, gasp, a “black” President… They cranked up their protests at the town hall meetings about health care reform. And were egged on by faux noise tv. Of course, O screwed up health care reform royally in his own way: after campaigning for single payer and the public option, he dealt those two progressive changes out behind closed doors by making deals with pharm. corps. and ins. corps. The end product was a mish-mash, featuring a giant taxpayer subsidy to private ins. corps. to make health ins. “affordable” for the working poor. O is a fraud. No wonder Americans are pissed and disheartened…
Replying to Jim Moss @17
“May I suggest that instead of deriding all of organized religion, you specify your complaints to conservative evangelicals and fundamentalists?”
With all due respect, I cannot. One need no clearer example than “Clergy Sex Abuse” of children and the disgusting action of the “Church,” to protect pedophile priest from retribution of law. However Mr. Moss I know as does everyone else there are many “good people,” within organized religion(s). I was educated by the Sisters of Notre Dame, Xaverian Brothers, and my Uncle’s brother was a Jesuit Priest. The actions of a “few” does tarnish the public’s perception of many! Besides, I have faith in man, to do the right thing when he listens to his conscience……..
thanks for adding the Roger Williams link.
As your writing made clear – Justice Thomas is correct that while the Constitution does prevent the establishment of a Federal approved church, it does/did not prohibit the States from favoring one church over other churches/religions as Jefferson and the Baptists found. There has never been a Constitutional wall that was a separation of church and state – until we had some USSC decisions in the 60′s that reached into state rights to ban school prayer. Even then, and to this date, there has never been a USSC decision that claimed a legal right for the atheist desired “freedom from religion” (indeed the trend that seems to fit the Constitution post 1960 is the treating of atheists as just another religion based on belief in the unprovable belief in the non-existence of a creator, allowing them to join Xmas carol singing circles on the public common so as to sing “secular songs” – I’ve walked a few such circles and the secular song singers were quite good!).
I agree with the thrust of your post – but logic will not get us votes – too many are peeved at Obama/Rahm and at the modest infrastructure portion in the “stimulus” – meaning responsibility for a portion of the lack of jobs is the Democrats. And then there is the base that is still waiting for that public option that needed only 51 votes – but was killed by Obama/Rahm.
The Democrats traded the base for campaign money – and indeed they have more than the GOP this round. I doubt that it will help – and I doubt that the reaction will be anything more than wanting even more money for 2012.
When a wide majority of the population of this country does not accept the incontrovertible evidence for evolution (only Turkey has a larger percentage of such folks than the US) and a fair proportion of those who do think it’s “God guided” (which is really a creationist belief) and when a significant majority of people in this country would not vote for an openly declared non-believer running for public office the problem goes much deeper than fundamentalists.
Most progressive religious types I’m familiar with hold beliefs in the supernatural (deities, immortal souls, the afterlife, virgin births, etc.) that are clearly not based in reason or science. And frankly, I have met very few religious types, progressive or not, who do no look down on non-believers and who do not consider themselves morally superior, not only to non-believers, but to believers of other stripes.
This is another ridiculous canard about atheism. Atheism is not a faith-based belief that there is no deity. It’s simply an intellectual position, based on reason and science, that there is no rational basis for any of the god beliefs. It’s no more a religion than not playing baseball is a sport.
If what you’ve said is the legal opinion of the Constitutional scholars it’s an outrage.
Several states (more than you can count on one hand) prohibit(ed) avowed atheists from holding public office. In the 1960′s the US Supreme Court giggled over those states’ sanctions, simply declaring them unenforceable.
This is a footnote from a wiki article:
Yes, I’m aware of these cases. I wonder how the Scalia/Roberts/Thomas/Alito court will rule when such cases are inevitably raised again.
Actually, since the existence/non-existence/exact nature of a divine being is non-falsifiable, science explicitly cannot prove or disprove the existence of God. There is no proof either way; thus, any position on it, save for agnosticism, is by definition faith-based.
Also, many reasonable people, including myself, do believe in God. And we base it on reason. Are you to tell me someone like yourself is inherently more “reasonable” because you are an atheist? You may be more reasonable than I am, but it is not because of your belief. Please do not assume that all religious people- of which there are billions- are all, somehow, despite all probability, entirely devoid of reason in their beliefs, and that only you, magical atheist that you are, happen to be a “wise”, “rational” person. It’s as much of a canard as any other stereotype about atheists.
As for the way religious people treat the non-religious, you are, sadly, quite correct. Religious people do treat atheists like shit, which is probably the main reason so many atheists despise religion. I can’t really blame them; I’d hate them too. It’s a cultural issue that needs to be addressed.
However, I am curious as to your comments on the way Constitution scholars should treat atheists. You seem to suggest that treating atheism as merely a type of religious belief- one that cannot be established or banned, like any other belief- is incorrect, somehow. I am curious to think what you believe the laws around atheism should be.
“As your writing made clear – Justice Thomas is correct that while the Constitution does prevent the establishment of a Federal approved church, it does/did not prohibit the States from favoring one church over other churches/religions as Jefferson and the Baptists found.”
First off, Scarecrow never made any statement that “Justice Thomas was correct”. And if we are to hold that the States are bound by the Constitutional protections to citizens generally…which has been the position of the Supreme Court since John Marshall (The Supremacy Clause) then individual States ARE prevented from establishing a STATE religion. Otherwise a STATE could restrict freedom of the press, or the right to petition ones representatives, or to bear arms, or State or local police could perform warrantless searches (and given that there were NO Federal police at the time…then what was that restriction directed towards if not magistrates at a more local level). If the 13th-14th Amendment were simply based upon Federal recognition it would allow States to reimpose slavery…provided they “kept it local”.
Your claim makes absolutely no sense. And if Justice Thomas asserts that this is true then he’s more of an imbecile than I thought. It makes sense that he isn’t capable of writing his own decisions.
As well the reason the Democrats have more “declared” money this round is the result of “Citizens United”. Why would anyone donate to a politician when that money has to be documented by source and a politician will not usually attack their opponent so candidly. A 527c group can accept millions of dollars, and not reveal their donors, and can say anything they wish. The politician can simply say…”it wasn’t me that called my opponent a pedophile…I have no control over what that group said”.
Based on TV advertising “buys” conservative 527c groups have received hundreds of millions of dollars this campaign cycle…dwarfing the amount raised by the official Democratic fndraising groups.
It’s late and I’m rambling. Can’t go wrong with a numbered list…
1. The important legislative decisions of today are not easy; they require difficult choices that weigh many factors against each other as even the best of ideas can be made into a bad law.
2. Where a congressperson has no substantive experience, they are forced to rely upon their staff, party, or lobbyists to bring them up to speed.
3. If an issue defies easy absorption, the congressperson becomes a de facto salesperson for lobbyists or their party – charged with pitching that position to their constituents.
As you have a legal background, you have probably seen this sort of thing a thousand times when your non-lawyer friends discuss the law. Non-trivial gray-area legal issues are reduced to soundbites that match the arguments of the one side they’ve heard, or the (objectively! ha!) correct verdicts on high-profile cases are obvious to anyone who watches the news.
For the uninitiated, economic theory is reduced to the most naive of terms: “taxing businesses destroy jobs” or “the problem with the economy is insufficient demand”. People with no meaningful business experience wax philosophic about what motivates entrepreneurs. And don’t get me started on the butchering of the way “science gets done”!
The problem as I see it is a combination of two factors:
1. We expect a constant stream of highly detailed, precisely tailored laws on a dizzying array of issues from our legislators.
2. Though many people can quote their party line on a wide range of issues, few people in Congress have even a basic working knowledge of the subjects they vote on.
I mean seriously, why would anyone expect their congressman to read the health care proposals they voted on? Was it really going to help them decide how they should vote? They were told what was in it and why they should vote for or against it – and then their job was to either pitch it or excoriate it to their buying… er… voting public. Climate change? Immigration reform? The topics they LIKE to talk about are the “social issues” as those seem easier but even those miss any real nuance.
So what’s the solution?
Either we reduce the Congressional workload to a more narrow, workable range of topics – and then vote in people who are at least minimally competent on those subjects OR we accept that the people we elect won’t necessarily understand the laws they pass anymore than your typical salesman would.
Sorry this went so long… it’s very frustrating for me.
So what’s the solution? Education and sites like FDL. Even at the local level, people can be elected to a local board, while not having a clue of the statute they are charged with enforcing. However citizens must never be precluded from running for office because they are not lawyers. Law libraries are great places to educate self. As I recall “Abe” was self taught! I’ve shredded $400.00 per hour suits who assume people are ignorant, then ask, (“what law school you went to?”) after you cut them down at the knees. One does not need to be a lawyer to understand the law. To coin an old phrase…. “Reading is fundamental!” However I agree with you, “it’s very frustrating!”
“Actually, there is a basis for separation of church and state that despite insisting she has ‘faith’, O’Donnell and many of her like forget. In the Bible, their Christ forgoes earthly power and a kingdom on earth, saying “Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s and unto God the things that are God’s”.
This is a GREAT point. We need to hear this more often in public.
Alas, the rest of your comment is spot on, too.
I don’t think you can’t disprove the existence of Zeus but I doubt that you believe that he exists.
The existence of a personal god that influences events in the natural world and responds to prayers, which is what virtually all religious people believe in, is certainly falsifiable. There is absolutely no evidence for such an entity and in fact quite a bit of scientific evidence arguing against the existence of such an entity. Belief in a personal god is clearly faith-based as any religious person will freely and proudly admit.
The existence of a deist type of god that has no influence in the natural world, that doesn’t answer your prayers or know or care a whit about you cannot be disproved but is a god of little consequence and not a god that people actually worship.
Lack of a belief in a personal god on the basis of science and reason is not a faith based belief that a personal god does not exist. If you don’t understand this have an adult explain it to you.
This is an absurd, fact-free assertion that does not bear close inspection. If you have a reason-based belief in the god you believe in please supply the evidence. And if you believe based on reason then why do you need faith? Sorry but this is bullshit. The rest of the argument you make in this paragraph is too sophomoric to merit a response.
Thanks you for having the integrity to admit that.
I despise religion because 1) its authoritarian and intellectually dishonest nature 2) the conceit of religious believers claim an exemption for their beliefs from any criticism and rational analysis (frequently making magical claims for which no evidence can be provided) and yet 3) they want their beliefs to have the highest currency in cultural norms and even public policy. The treatment of non-believers by believers is just a manifestation of these aspects of religious belief.
Your question illustrates your fundamental misunderstanding of non-belief. I personally do not call myself an “atheist” (I know many non-believers do) because I don’t think god beliefs are valid enough to merit a special term for those who do not subscribe to them. I also don’t believe in Santa Claus, unicorns, leprechauns or mermaids and I am not familiar with any special term that applies to those non-beliefs. And no, I don’t really see the difference between Judeo-Christian god and Santa Claus, leprechauns, unicorns or mermaids (or Zeus, Odin, Vishnu, etc for that matter).
Non-belief in gods is simply an empirical observation that the arguments for god beliefs don’t hold water. That’s it. You, like most religious believers insist on conflating non-belief with religion because you cannot see outside of the narrow prism of the faith-based belief system to which you adhere. You don’t seem to understand that what non-believers reject is not just your specific belief but your entire philosophical approach.
As to what the “laws around atheism” should be – what an idiotic question. Why should there be any? How could thee be any? How can you legislate anything about a non-belief? All I’m interested in is government neutrality with respect to religion. I don’t think religion or religious institutions should be supported or encouraged by government, I don’t think religious institutions should influence public policy or the political process and there should be no abominations such as National Prayer Breakfasts or National Prayer Days.
Atheism is a faith-based position, as is theism. As a theist, I prefer my “imaginary friend” as an explanation for the existence of a universe and a world amazingly compatible for the human species, as opposed to an “imaginary force” that somehow created something from nothing, and life from non-life.
I am amazed at the perpetuation of the urban myth that “separation of church and state” is in the Constitution.
You understand nothing about atheism.
And you also obviously prefer to be willfully ignorant of all scientific and intellectual progress since the Dark Ages.
Except for a significant portion of the Earth’s actual environment or did you forget about all bodies of water, high altitudes, extreme climates (in which we can only exit with specialized technology or do you think that God also invented SCUBA tanks, mountaineering gear, heaters and air conditioning?) and the large portions of the Earth’s history when there was no oxygen, the temperature and climate were unsuitable for any life we know about and the surface was being bombarded by asteroids?
What is your god other than an “imaginary force that created something from nothing and life from non-life?” And who or what created your “imaginary friend”?
Christine O’Donnell is that you?