
This cutaway diagram shows the central reactor vessel and thick concrete containment in a typical boiling water reactor of the same era as Fukushima Daiichi 1 (image: www.world-nuclear-news.org)
First, thanks much to our great commentors — Masoninblue, earlofhuntingdon, Professor Foland and many others — who continue to provide updates and expert analysis on the Japanese nuclear crisis. And hat tip to commentor “lobster” for finding a better schematic that helps illustrate the conflicting stories about a “meltdown.” [Updated to reflect suggestions for clarity.]
Desperate efforts continue to contain the damage at at least six nuclear reactor units at Fukushima Stations I (Daiichi) and II (Daini), following the explosion early this a.m. (US Eastern) at Daiichi Unit 1.
There are confusing/conflicting reports of a “meltdown,” at Unit 1. CNN reported a Japanese nuclear official seeming to confirm that a “meltdown” was probably underway, but there has been no other official confirmation. As Bill Egnor’s comment thread highlights, there’s no official definition, and there are different ways the term “meltdown” is being used.
1. Using lobster’s diagram, we can see in the middle the metal core of the reactor, which contains the fuel and control rods. Let’s call it the reactor vessel. Emergency cooling systems are beneath that vessel.
2. But surrounding and containing that reactor vessel and other equipment is a fairly substantial containment structure, with various parts of the normal steam and emergency cooling water systems feeding into it to reach the reactor.
3. Then all of this structure and more is housed in a large building, which some might call a reactor building. In this vintage, it’s not a hardened structure designed to contain explosions or high pressure. The roof and outer walls of this building, we believe, are what was destroyed by the explosion.
Explained this way, we can then account for some of the apparently conflicting reports and claims.
Was the containment structure destroyed? Officials say no. Well, it’s possible it wasn’t destroyed; however, the walls and roof of the larger building were destroyed, leaving the internal structure exposed. We don’t know the extent of the damage to this internal structure.
Is the reactor core still viable? Officials say yes, but what they may mean is that there hasn’t been a major breach of the inner reactor vessel, even after the explosion. We can’t tell for sure, but other evidence suggests some damage inside.
Has their been a “meltdown,” as CNN quotes the official as confirming [and see LA Times Version]? It depends on what you call a “meltdown.” If you ask, did any of the fuel rods melt? the answer is “maybe”
or even “probably.” There are reports the fuel rods were expose somewhat, for some period, and some melting could have occurred then. That type of initial “melting” would account for the presence of hydrogen, which led to the explosion, and the release of cesium. [I'll edit this as I get confirmation/better explanation.] But . . .
It’s also possible this limited melting has not proceeded to the stage where it becomes so pervasive that it melts through the reactor vessel, and continues on through the rest of the containment structure and floor. If the reactor then became “critical” again, that might lead to a full “meltdown” — the so-called China Syndrone — but we don’t seem to have evidence that that has occurred. Hence the confusion over whether a “meltdown” has or hasn’t happened.
In the meantime, the plant emergency teams continue to pump sea water into the reactor, though there’s no evidence they’re also trying to fill the internal “containment structure.” Since the normal and emergency cooling water systems have failed, the point of the sea water is to continue carrying heat away from the reactor as it slowly cools. The hope is that the core reaches lower temperatures where further melting cannot occur.
There are also reports of sea water being injected into at least [one other?] reactor. Unit 3′s cooling water system failed earlier today, and there is a BBC report that seems to suggest the core has become partially uncovered.
Quoted by Kyodo, Tepco said the tops of the MOX fuel rods were 3m above water.
So there are still at least six units in varying stages of risk. We should note, however, that as time passes and matters don’t deteriorate further, the heating processes being driven by the core/fuel rod decay will slow and the danger lessen. For the first time, time may be on the peoples’ side. [Update: Prof Foland notes via e-mail that “on the other hand, if coolant is slowly boiling off in other units, then the cores are slowly heating up.” So they may need to take additional measures — sea water cooling? — to bring those temps down, provided they’re willing to lose those units by using sea water.
Japanese authorities are steadily increasing the number of people being evacuated in areas surrounding the two Fukushima nuclear stations. The last confirmed report I saw was 140,000 people being asked to leave, but later reports suggest the number at 180,000 (CNN) or exceeding 200,000 (BBC).
People are being given iodine treatment to help limit the effects of radiation exposure, as the number of folks possibly exposed climbs. That suggests they’re clearly worried about losing more of these plants and having more radiation releases, with associated health implications.
Again, we’ll update as events warrant. And thanks to our commentors for all their help.
John Chandley



236 Comments

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RT Japan Nuclear Watch: Struggling to Prevent and Limit Meltdowns http://bit.ly/h53ENe #FDL #japan #fukushima #sendai #tsunami
Since the reporting at FDL on this matter has my head spinning and I can’t keep track of what is speculation or known, I thought I’d pass this along. FDL’s reporting is superior, but this is a Japanese news agency.
http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/20110312dy01.htm
Over on Brad Blog, near the bottom, is a photo of the blown reactor building, from Tokyo Power Electric Co., via AP. They don’t show much inside, but I’m wondering if the structure behind the corner in the middle could be the top of the reactor vessel.
This post, and that excellent diagram, have answered a huge number of questions I used to have about this.
Thanks, scare.
Recommended.
There is a language problem here. In a sense a reactor structure is like a chinese doll where one is inside of another and so forth.
The ultimate containment DID explode. It was the building which house the reactor “vessel” and associated pumps and motors, and fuel rods and do forth and the reactor itself where the fuel “lives” is another “key” containment.
We know somethings happened because there was a hydrogen explosion of the outer building and this was due to the fuel reacting to emergency cooling water and supper heating it to release steam and then hydrogen and oxygen which DID explode.
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/japans-twin-disasters-march-13-liveblog
7:15am
More on the danger posed by that second developing problem at the Fukushima nuclear power plant. A Tokyo Electric Power Co spokesman said:
All the functions to keep cooling water levels in No.3 reactor have failed at the Fukushima No.1 plant.
As of 5:30am, water injection stopped and inside pressure is rising slightly.
An emergency report on the plant’s condition has been filed with the government, he added.
OK — I’ve been out of internet range and being the bottom line person I am, here’s my ‘cut to the chase’ question:
How much radiation has escaped? Does anyone know? Is anyone saying? How does this amount of radiation compare to TMI and Chernobyl? Has anyone plotted the possible plume trails and ‘time of arrival’ in various parts of the world and the US? I’ve got a brand new grandson and I’m thinking the smartest thing I could do is to go out and buy baby formula and put it in some sort of protected place. Am I right?
Excellent summary and analysis and update. You covered all the known facts to date.
I think we have deformed rods (meltdown) and that will be a problem. Likewise the seawater flooding of the control room means that unit is not coming back – they will replace (no doubt re-selling the metal into a third world country with no environmental controls). The hydrogen bubble brings back to mind the 3 mile island incident.
While 3 mile island Unit 1 had its license temporarily suspended following the incident at Unit 2, it was permitted to resume operations in 1985. Unit 2 has been administered by Exelon Nuclear since 2003, and the TMI-2 reactor is permanently shut down with the reactor coolant system drained, the radioactive water decontaminated and evaporated, radioactive waste shipped off-site to a disposal site, reactor fuel and core debris shipped off-site to a Department of Energy facility, and the remainder of the site being monitored. In 2009, the NRC granted a license extension which means the TMI-1 reactor may operate until April 19, 2034.
Limiting meltdowns. Now that’s an interesting concept. I can see clearly how O would use it.
“But we’re only giving Excelon $9 billion of taxpayer money in exchange for which Excelon promises to limit meltdowns.”
“Did I get that in writing? How silly. I always look forward so what good would it do to get that in writing?”
“Besides, it depends on what your definition of ‘limit’ is.”
When this explosion took place it was evidence of a very hot core and we don’t know if it melted and turned to a super hot liquid or simply hot enough to cause the super heated steam and hydrogen.
If the sea water they are pumping in is not cooling it, it certainly will degrade the structure. So the reactor is a goner. The question is if they can get enough water IN and OUT to cool it and prevent it from going runaway. If they can’t extract the fuel rods and reduce the mass to sub critical, it just keeps generating more and more intense heat.
They are severely limited in what can be done at this point. They simply have to find a way to cool it and if the core is all kittiwampus it’s hard to see that a melt down won’t advance. But this depends in the condition of the core and whether they can keep the mass subcritical. I don’t see how they can… so it’s like pouring lots of water on a frying pan with the stove heating it up from below. You can’t win that one… can you?
A PBS documentary about TMI.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLPAigMuBk0
There is nothing wrong with being prepared, but we haven’t seen anything that says everyone should be rushing out to stock up. We’re not the experts or the emergency planners.
Thank you, John.
The wide evacuation area is telling also. This may be a precaution or it may be prudent because of the high levels of radiation being released. They should have monitors and be able to report this. If they are not there is something fishy in their holding this back. N’est pas?
Mahalo, Scarecrow for the concise reporting…! I’ve been following NHK’s coverage and much of what you’ve said, they’ve said…!
Explosion Destroys Walls of Japan Reactor Building, NHK Says…
Dennis Kucinich speaking in Madison demands the prosecution those responsible for dragging the US into wars based on false information.
My knowledge of this subject is very limited so I’ll just ask my question. Does the water they are putting into this become dangerous and, if so, what will they do with it? If it goes back into the ocean won’t it pollute the globe?
The prevailing winds are from the west. The winds are strong and they are blowing across the ocean at this point. And they still evacuate to the west.
How does the Cesium that results from uranium rods melting escape into the outside environment? Is the there direct contact between the rods and the cooling water?
Nice summary of the status of TMI 2. The plant was originally owned by a utility called GPU, now absorbed. I once consulted with those folks, back in the late 1990s. EXELON later merged with others and became a major nuke owner/operator.
There is no question that we do not have enough words to describe the components (“containment” seems to mean about three different parts of this facility) or the events involved: “meltdown” seems to be used to mean several different stages of progressively more dire happenings.
Adding: not specifically you, John, but the news media in general, as well as government officials and the facility’s operator.
Not to mention that the news is generated in Japanese and subtle naming conventions may be blurred.
We need to know how much radiation has been released and have a weather report to view the dispersal plume. Chernobyl sent a plume over Scandanavia. Obviously the further away the higher the winds will take the radiation until it’s in the jet stream.
Now there is as they are flooding the reactor to cool it.
I believe the control rods are all in place – and that the design is such that more time means less chance of further damage. But I suspect there are two plants that will never come back.
Meltdown refers to the core itself and when it gets that hot it melts right through the floor of the structure it is inside of.
Plus, of course, the time difference seems to confuse some commentators who, today, wrote about things that happened Saturday noontime in Japan as if they had JUST happened, when in fact that was yesterday. Media have not all been scrupulous with regard to datelines/times either.
As noted by Prof Foland (nuclear physicist) and other commentors in Bill Egnor’s thread, there is some [limited] radiation transferred to the cooling water — isotopes of Nitrogen. Since they’re trying to prevent a much more serious meltdown, it’s a tradeoff. I wouldn’t drink the water, but this is not regarded as nearly the serious problem as other radioactive contamination that might be associated with a larger meltdown. However, we’ve all come to suspect official statements about acceptable dosage levels for us and critters.
The media is being kept back a 60km so its hard to get eyewitness reports. Instead we get the calming reports of nuclear pundits armchair quarterbacking.
I saw this link of potential Fallout Areas and Time for Fallout to Arrive Overtop the Western U.S. on another Blog. Have no idea if it is accurate. Or how sifting winds could change it.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-8NIAHFZPA0s/TXwNYDfkFSI/AAAAAAAAAPI/MhcJHUj7-KM/s1600/fallout.jpg

So Bill Nye, the Science Guy, was on CNN a few minutes ago. He started straying from the rosy scenario that all is under control. The anchors interrupted him because an actual rescue was taking place. The reporter narrating the helicopter rescue said rescues like that were happening by the hundreds all over Japan. They never did get back around to Bill Nye!
So they pump in seawater to replace the water lost when they vented steam to reduce the containment vessel pressure. I assume that seawater then goes through the existing heat exchangers and pumps and is recirculated. Is this right? Someone please reassure me they do not just dump it back into the sea, or the cooling ponds.
Friends of the Earth today sponsored a conference call with former regulator, Peter Bradford, scientists and public health experts to talk about the implications and potential worst case scenario. Scientific American has an article based on that call:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=fukushima-core
Basically, the plume will drift northward towards the Aleutians, following the Alaskan coastline, and meandering down to BC, WA, OR, and CA until it hits the ITC and then loops back westward towards Hawaii…! 8-(
That map looks suspect to me and depends on the wind strength.
In the winds are 50K in the north pacific and this is not unreasonable that alone would be 1200 miles a day. Go figure.
papau
“I believe the control rods are all in place”
Why do you ‘believe’ that?
Now they say they’re going back to him!
Is a Japan Syndrome a possibility?
Your explination of the reactor vessel and containment structure are clear and i believe correct. The outer structure-building probably shouldn’t be called a containment building since i believe it is just a structure to enclose and protect the inner structures and components from the elements.
Trying to explain this disaster with the term ,meltdown, is probably causing more confusion than understanding, it is not a technical term that describes the multiple failure events that can occur in a reactor.
I believe that the control rods… at least some of them are not only not in place… but can’t be inserted or were destroyed… My guess is that this makes it necessary to use sea water to cool it. If the control rods were in place there would have been no heating and no hydrogen production and no explosion.
It seems like there are five more in danger of the same problem.
I am outta here folks.
The worst is yet to come.
the concept is it melts through everything, it reaches the center of the earth, then defying gravity, comes out the other side of the planet. It never made any sense, but it sounds awful.
The cascading loss of electric power and then the flooding or the back up generators and the fouling of the pumps is making controlling the heat a big problem.
This is the World Heath Org report on cesium and iodine dispersal from Chernobyl (Maps)
http://www.iaea.org/Publications/Magazines/Bulletin/Bull283/28302792729.pdf
Though this image contains information that is potentially alarming, the putative author (Australian Radiation Services) is actually a private company, not a public entity.
If the image is valid, it is quite dire – but the total lack of commensurate concern manifest on a broader level suggests the information is actually a hoax. And if so, a very cruel one: though that in no way reflects on those who may share the information.
This is really a FUBAR and these guys are improvising I suspect.
That’s what it sounds like. Nye wondering if satellites could look down and see what’s actually in the air….Even he’s out of answers…
my total ignorance ,on this adds to my fears
it doesn’t come out the other side… hahahaha
CNN is acting very strangely ~ it seems they cannot decide whether the nuclear reactor story is dire or just confused by “conflicting reports.”
I don’t recall everything that happened with TMI or Chernobyl. What I do recall is we weren’t told everything at the time. It was the Swedes who reported Chernobyl had gone critical BECAUSE their sensors went off and they thought at first they had a problem on their own soil!! Even 10 years ago when I went to research Chernobyl I could find very little.
So, I am ASSUMING we will not be told everything. And certainly while media is attempting to underplay the crisis and, at the same time, play up the heartwarming rescue and ‘human interest’ angle in Japan. I find I really cannot stomach the video of the earthquake/tsunami events or the humanitarian stories. It’s upsetting. And I want factual news. Not getting much of it.
For what it is worth, this is what the Washington State Health Officials are saying about exposure.
I think they need to control the message to control the panic and the desparation and they simply likely don’t know and can’t control too much.
What? Me Worry? Where’s Brownie?
I call BS on that
Yeah, with my luck, my house is prolly the point pn the globe exactly opposite the point of meltdown.
Well yeah…and one of the media corp owners, GE, built the dang things….they don’t want to be blamed, nor do they want to lose “future” business…maybe that’s why too.
Also, take a look at the video of the explosion ~ there’s a strong wave or airburst just after the explosion starts. This was a very powerful explosion, no matter what the cause.
This doesn’t make sense to me. When the earthquake detectors triggered, the control rods would have dropped down to full engagement with the fuel rods, so they were initially wher you would want them.
Then pump power failed, batteries ran out, steam superheated, pressure rose, and the lesser of two bad choices was selected, and some steam was released.
This eventually left the tops of the fuel and control rods above the water level, and some melting of both fuel and control rods may have occurred, at the top of the reactor stack.
So now SanderO’s assertion becomes relevant: probably the control rods cannot be moved, either up or down,but are probably mostly in place, but if the control rods melted at the top, then there could be unmoderated fuel at the top of the reactor, hence the need for a LOT of seawater.
Ding! Ding! Ding!
Could it be that everytime they get anywhere near ‘dire,’ the phones start ringing in the control room … their masters calling to refine the message?
No shit.
Then there is this article from Helium.com that says the opposite.
Makes me want to throw up.
One of the troubling factors for me is that the officials know more than we do about the specifics, such as the level of radiation present at certain distances from the reactor and the exact temperature inside the reactor core and its rate of increase or decrease. Not having access to the information they have, except that which they choose to share, and being fully aware of their concern to calm people down and present information to the public in a light most favorable to them, I necessarily take everything with a grain of salt and fear the worst.
I just don’t trust authority figures. I don’t wear tinfoil hats and endlessly speculate about conspiracies, but I know enough to question and not enough to come up with the correct answers. So, I worry.
WTF, maybe it’s just part of the human condition.
The control rods were “scramed” right after the first quake. Fully inserted.
The big problem is even with control rods fully inserted, they still produce about 6% (a number I heard few times yesterday) of the heat they produce when fully operating. It takes weeks to get temperatures from operational range down to the cold start up
This is an entertaining intellectually stimulating problem solving vicariously. And it is fun to see experienced quick minds at work. But the reality is; if the world is to rely on nuclear power as a major source of energy we should have long ago surpassed this gee whiz phase to a mature reliable technology with no surprises. We clearly are not there, not even as to wisdom in how best to employ it.
The technology is simply not there. It is all dreams and hubris.
I haven’t heard what’s happening to the seawater once its pumped into either the middle, containment vessel or into the reactor vessel that nests inside it. With pumps and pipelines damaged, and primary and secondary power sources failing, it’s unclear how they’re even doing it. Does it pool and collect, flow, seep back out to sea, get recycled and pumped in again after it’s cooled?
Whey Hollywood makes the movie of this fiasco, they’ll call it The Yellowsnapdragon Syndrome.
In the spring of 1986 I was managing a REMP database and reporting system I’d developed for the environmental radiation lab in Oak Ridge where I worked. One of our clients was Perry Nuclear of Ohio. The REMP stuff comprised an ongoing environmental baseline study via which to establish natural radionuclide levels across the breadth of matrices within a 5 mile radius of the proposed plant site — soils, vegetation, water, milk from local cows, all manner of biota, and the air.
The air filter analyses always came back “below LLD” (Lower Limit of Determination, i.e., in this case “<0.04 pCi/Cu.m." I had a macro code snippet that simply populated that field with that update ongoing.
One week after Chernobyl we had elevated positive lab readings across all air filter locations. I-131. Given its 8.05 day half-life, it descended back down to below LLD after about 5 weeks.
Nonetheless, it was a bit creepy.
Other, heavier radionuclides like Cs-137 were blown all over the arctic regions. Scientists are probably STILL studying biota uptake and rad migration on a lot of this stuff.
Remember "too cheap to meter"?
Right.
Sounds about right
All seven reactors currently having difficulties were shut down automatically at the time of the earthquake — hence the control rods were in place at that time.
The problems now are threefold:
1. Prevent the afterheat from the decay of decay products from melting the fuel assemblies. This is the cooling problem in the news.
2. Prevent all cores that are shutdown from going critical again. This could happen if there is melting of fuel assemblies + unboronated cooling water in circulation. Hence the boric acid in the various news stories.
3. Keep onsite spent fuel from overheating.
Items 1 and 3 normally require external power or diesel generator backup. The battery power that is discussed here and there is necessary to run the ECCS backup system.
The ECCS backup system itself has failed for units 1 and 3 at Daiichi. The seawater idea is an impromptu effort to keep those two cores cool. I do not know how the seawater is being circulated in those cases. Normally there would be a lot of circulation of the cooling water.
Failure for item 1 could lead to the problems of full meltdown, further explosions and dispersal, but only in the near term because the decay products themselves decay to safer values in hours to days after shutdown.
Failure for item 2 would be catastrophic.
Failure for item 3 would lead to risk of loss of life for all working at the plant and thus engender problems for items 1 and 2.
Don’t forget that the prevailing winds from Japan flow directly over the US, especially the western half. They used this information back during WWII in developing their program to deliver balloons carrying bombs. The got at least as far as Kansas.
The radioactive seawater has to go somewhere and I don’t think they have any place to put it except in the cooling tanks that may already be full or pump it back into the ocean.
Unless, they just let it boil away periodically releasing it as radioactive steam, a disquieting thought even it not “explosive.”
SanderO, get a grip. Things are bad but not (yet) catastrophic.
The production of the hydrogen was discussed and explained in the previous thread here at FDL.
None of the reactors have yet gone critical or we would know it. There would be additional (non-nuclear) explosions.
There is no serious risk of fallout in the continental US at this time, nor is there likely to be unless the situation gets much worse.
Here, you can have my tinfoil hat. I don’t think we are getting the real facts any more than you do. This is really scary stuff and evidently that is why facts are hard to come by.
I got the following:
Japan’s Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency (NISA) said March 12 that the explosion at the Fukushima Daiichi No. 1 nuclear plant could only have been caused by a meltdown of the reactor core, Japanese daily Nikkei reported. This statement seemed somewhat at odds with Japanese Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano’s comments earlier March 12, in which he said “the walls of the building containing the reactor were destroyed, meaning that the metal container encasing the reactor did not explode.”
NISA’s statement is significant because it is the government agency that reports to the Agency for Natural Resources and Energy within the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry. NISA works in conjunction with the Atomic Energy Commission.
http://www.stratfor.com/analysis/20110312-japanese-government-confirms-meltdown
Do they even have electricity sufficient to pump water ? Do we know they have that?
We in the Twilight Zone now, next up……
Another thing to shine the light on Obama’s stunning genius, wasn’t nuclear part of his package ?
I haven’t even seen an explanation of how they’re powering the pumps. I assume they’ve got mobile generators, but where were those when they could have tied into the emergency systems. Suggests damage to other auxiliary equipment that made that impractical.
Looks like the best case here is gonna be a “Three Mile Island.” A hugely expensive ruined piece of shit to be shut down and encased for, well, “forever.”
That’s scary.
The current dominant radiation releases have been releases of steam and water that has (according to official reports) not been in direct contact with the fuel.
If there is no contact with the fuel, then the radiation we are talking about is radioactive nitrogen, which is not a problem (very short half-life).
All of the problems are associated with release and dispersal of the fuel/spent fuel itself. So far, we only know that iodine and cesium were observed and reported BEFORE the first explosion. This is very disquieting.
We are officially in the midst of an emergency that is less bad than TMI but much less dangerous than Chernobyl. It is most likely at this point that we will end up with a total accident that is officially between TMI and Chernobyl.
It is unlikely but not theoretically impossible that this event will be as bad as Chernobyl. Unless it gets much worse, there is not likely going to be dangerous fallout in the US. As I said in the previous thread, there will be radiation monitoring in place at most physics departments in the US soon, so you won’t have to depend on official reporting to know what is going on.
thanx very much for this clear article Scarecrow!
You said there have been reports of exposed rods (who/where?) while others have said rods were all dropped when the earthquake hit, the loss of electrical power to the pumps and subsequent flow of coolant was the problem we deal with. This is also why the other plants are reporting problems: the lack of coolant flow which as you report will take a couple days to completely cool down keeping rods subcritical.
But have there been any official reports of rod exposure or even the cause of latter explosion due to Hydrogen of whichever ‘containment structure?
Reason I ask is that one method for maintaining power in emergency circumstances is with big room size batteries that produce DC and H2 as a byproduct if and when deisel generators fail or run out of fuel which here seemed to be the case. Wasn’t 18-24 hours ago it reported that batteries were being delivered to the site?
It would be great to hear that the explosion occurred because of lack of Hydrogen monitoring when juggling batteries in a closed space than any horrible situation like poor venting of hydrogen gas produced by nucleate boiling within a core or a reactor’s closed system.
To answer flashinreno’s query above, if they are using seawater they won’t likely pump it back in the sea. Depending how much they have to use, but they would probably want to at least test it …
It does rather depend on the amount of radioactive material released; its concentration will decrease as it disperses downwind and over distance. By how it disperses depends on such things as the rate at which it’s releeased, what’s released, and the speed, duration, temperature and other characteristics of the wind.
All of those things would seem to be among the facts officials would most like not to disclose in full. That is, not when they’re more interested in their political futures or in keeping down panic. Some politicians, of course, just lie because they can’t or won’t take action necessary to protect their populations, and are simply keeping them calm, as doctors used to do by not telling their patients what was wrong with them.
Boronated seawater, or you would be risking making the problem worse.
Boron captures neutrons effectively and thus cuts off/slows the nuclear chain reaction that you are talking about here.
MSNBC.com is reporting that a meltdown is likely occuring at a second reactor.
reply to TalkingStick:
Electricity from nuclear reactors, ” to cheap to meter…”
Correct, but only hours to days to get to safe temperatures when there is cooling water circulating. Problems occur if the water boils off before the heat sources (your 6%) get cool enough so that melting is no longer an issue.
The ONLY thing nuke has going for it is the relative lack of greenhouse gases — if you ignore the mining and fuel development energy consumption externalities. For that, you get to trade other liabilities such as the Nuclear Security State. Dirty bombs and all that stuff.
If the original pumps are useless and electricity is via battery, it suggests they are insufficient and the meltdown will continue.
Seems to me if there was a real danger of 750 RADS nearing half the U.S. land mass there would be a LOT more excitement than there is. The Chernobyl disaster started out as bad as it gets, with the containment cover already blown partially off and the reactor in meltdown. That’s not what has happened in Japan, and they seem to feel they have some viable hope of getting ahead of a worse case event. They should be telling us more, but they may not know more than they are telling. At Three Mile Island they weren’t aware of how really extensive the meltdown was until they were able to send robot cameras into the containment tower after the reactor had cooled (I’m going by memory here). I live 100 miles from the Pacific ocean, and when the 3 to 6 foot tsunami arrived off the Oregon coast, the local news covered the event for 12 hours. You can bet if a real radiation emergency was looming, we’d hear about it, and about it, and about it!!
TheBradBlog Brad Friedman
RT @HirokoTabuchi: #Japan’s meteorological agency revises magnitude of Friday’s monster quake to 9.0
If Cs and I were leaking before the explosion what could possibly have changed so that they are not leaking now?
As I also noted, it’s limited in normal operation; what it picks up in this kind of way-beyond-the-pale operation is a lot less clear. It could in principle pick up globules of melted fuel pellets. In fact the seawater in principle won’t even have the nitrogen isotopes, since the control rods are keeping the neutron flux down.
So in short: nobody knows for sure. Depends what happened to the rods and what state the reactor vessel is in. It could end up being nearly uncontaminated, it could end up a superheated mix of liquified spent fuel pellets.
Was that helpful? :)
The lack of clarity, of uniform references to the reactor vessel, the containment vessel that surrounds it and is under pressure, and the building surrounding both, which protects maintenance and supply activity, but isn’t pressurized, is very unfortunate.
It’s either inexcusable ignorance – news readers, like litigators, are coached by support staff and get up to speed on jargon quickly – or a useful confusion that makes accurate assessments hard. That may be a goal, as TPTB don’t yet want a fully informed public, at least not until TPTB can say they have everything under control.
As with BP and its machinations to avoid disclosing the rate of flow from its debacle in the Gulf, corporate and national liability issues are firmly in politicians’ and company executives’ minds, even if other things are from time to time paramount.
The facts are very badly wrong in the Helium.com article.
Seems about time for The China Syndrome to be shown on one of those MSM tv stations.
That’s a revision that makes the quake roughly ten times more powerful than when it was called an 8.9. Each whole number on the Richter Scale is equivalent to a hundredfold increase over the next whole number below it.
Outstanding article, Scarecrow. Thank you.
BBC is now reporting that the second reactor which appears to be melting down could be more dangerous than the first:
Link: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12724953
Regarding what they’re doing with seawater, I imagine it depends on what systems they have restored and how much water there is. If there’s more chaos than order, they may be working on what to do with the seawater at the same time they’re trying to pump it to where it’s needed.
Well, it’s more than a couple of kilometers from Tokyo to the Aleutians or Seattle and from there to Denver, Omaha and Chicago. What’s still radioactive when it gets there depends on a lot of things, for example, what the radioactive elements are, their elevation in the competing “rivers” of wind heading West, speed, etc.
Uh, sorry. Twice as powerful as 8.9.
Each whole number is a TEN-fold increase over the next whole number below it.
IOW, you’re off by a factor of 10.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richter_scale
They are using the steam generated by the reactor itself to drive the pumps. The batteries are necessary, though, because they are used to actuate valves and such.
Whatever designer was responsible for the battery requirement when there is steam power available is feeling bad today. Probably never thought there would be a station blackout that would continue for days.
That’s the same kind of thinking that led the banksters to assume that house prices would never all go down at once.
Good question.
We should all be alert for reporting that touches on the levels of cesium and iodine-related radiation. Much is to be learned from that kind of data.
There is no official definition, actually, of a meltdown. There are basically four possible meanings;
(1) any portion of the fuel rods becoming hot enough to melt
(2) the entire fuel rods becoming hot enough to melt
(3) the rods melting as in 2, and breaching the reactor vessel; and (4) the rods becoming hot enough to melt as in 2, and additionally, subsequently re-acheiving criticality as they pool on the reactor floor.
I speculate at this point that it’s nearly certain that #1 has occurred. It is not at all certain about any of the others. I agree with lobster that radioactivity released in the controlled steam releases is likely to have been fairly benign on the scale of other nuclear accidents, and the same likely goes even for the explosion.
I’m generally in agreement with lobster that this is likely to stay sub-Chernobyl, though a tiny bit less sanguine about the decreasing decay heat. It decreases rather slowly at this point, and if I do my math right, will for some time still be sufficient to melt a rod over the course of half a day or so if coolant is totally lost.
Shouldn’t the boric acid niggle at me? If the control rods are in place, what’s the point? Or is it pure precaution?
That’s what I’m assuming, I remember working with numerous sizes of portable pumps that could move a lot of water on a moment’s notice…! I’m also concerned, like Mason, about what is happening to said water afterwards…! 8-(
” Filling the entire reactor container with seawater will take about 10 days, Edano said. It is likely that the reactor will have to be decommissioned because of the contamination by salts and other substances, experts said, according to Kyodo.”
From the story at MSNBC. I thought they were pumping water in and then extracting it. apparently not. What is the consquence of this?
Nice picture of that blown out reactor.
sorry. I forgot/s
I think they have all but admitted #1 happened.
According to Argonne National Lab data Unit 3 at Daiichi uses the same UO2 fuel as Unit 1. It is also a newer design. It is, however a larger unit (768 MWe vs. 439 MWe).
3 meters of exposed fuel rods is bad news. Unless there is something I don’t understand here, that will lead to a hydrogen explosion as the zirconium cladding breaks down the water; when the pressure is released (as it must be, to prevent worst-case developments) there will be an explosion at unit 3.
I’d like to be wrong.
“Seems to me if there was a real danger of 750 RADS nearing half the U.S. land mass there would be a LOT more excitement than there is.”
From no drama Obama? Like ;how excited they got about killing the Gulf of Mexico.
Thanks. I’ve been poking around and can’t find other confirmation of the MOX at unit 3.
The boric acid is a dead giveaway that #1 has happened or is believed to have happened. It is necessary at that point because otherwise the circulating water can remoderate the reactor and make things much worse. The boron is there to keep the melted (i.e., changed geometry) corium from going critical.
Sorry, should have thought that one through. The melted stuff is no longer up where the control rods are doing any good.
This almost certainly has to be misreported. They have to keep circulating water for 10 days, not filling the container.
In normal operation, Unit 1 has 22,000 tons of water per hour circulating through the reactor (working from the Argonne data sheets linked above).
I read the Argonne data as using 21000t/hr of cooling water, so they pretty much must be recirculating it. So the question is how much damage (and how quickly) will be done to the heat exchanger and pump by hot corrosive seawater?
Aloha, MM…! Did you see this clip of Kahului…?
The utility says that when the quake occurred and all units went into shutdown sequence, the control rods were successfully inserted.
When I use the “rods” in the post, I meant the fuel, not the control rods. So even assuming control rods were were 100% inserted, the falling water level could still expose the core, or parts of it. Yesterday, there were reports stating that a meter or so had been exposed.
I love what they named the melted rods, Corium, the pics from Chernobyl show it dripping out of pipes, weird lava like substance.
Well, the datasheets from Argonne are pretty old (updated in 97?). There is a reprocessing/MOX fabrication facility nearby, also on the east coast of Japan.
I wonder how the Rokkasho facility fared in the earthquake? Anyone know?
I think if it took 10 days to load the water there would be no point. The article at MSNBC is confusing; the sentence just above the 10 day quote has Edano saying it would take a few hours to load it in.
lobster, any chance you could drop me an email? andrewfoland at google’s mail service.
The NY Times did not seem to suggest that. It seemed odd to me.
you’re right of course but if that were part of an earlier – like a day ago – failed emergency coolant system than I conjecture it would be possible for that to be a leak and a subsequent explosion to be caused by something outside the reactor or primary containment, as they are describing.
Let’s hope they can monitor everyone/thing and as while get the people out in the midst of this larger disaster surrounding them…
yes, I’m trying to be as optimistic as possible…
Another thing is that while I know nothing of the MOX fuel or the system that uses it, still it seems CRAZY that fuelrods could be 3 m above coolant — it means they’re likely half uncovered and that’s a bad sign indeed.
Isn’t it 1 in the afternoon there?
Typical official understatement. Contamination with unfiltered seawater pumped into a partially destroyed building under emergency conditions guarantees that the reactor would have to be taken out of commission. Then there’s what’s been contaminated by radiation, if anything, and what steps will need to be taken to seal any leaks, etc.
It would also be useful to have the calculation of what pumps they have working, whether the seawater all remains within the building or is constantly leaking out simultaneously, etc.
Believe me, local news doesn’t need O’s permission to get excited! They’re pretty much self starting…
Yikes. I’m tracking down Jim White’s comments above. I’ll track down more links in a minute, but check this out…
Probably this should be a new thread:
Take a look at the NY Times reporting. There is no doubt at all about some melting.
The dog is barking.
Who’s going to want to work at this reactor after it’s been “refurbished”?
Done
Is that the volume associated with an intact cooling system, with working pumps and a fixed volume circulating within a closed system? Is it still closed? Working at normal capacity? What’s the quality of water being used for coolant; is it within system tolerances, or is it, too, contaminating the system in a way that will help make this reactor unusable or degrade the pumps circulating it?
Better, it seems, than the dog doing nothing in the nighttime.
Never gonna happen!
Ohhh, I was hoping someone would get to Silver Blaze before I did…
Good-oh!
I thought my comment made clear that I assumed the reactor would have to be shut down and that the official comment that used a conditional verb was de rigueur, but not convincing.
Great discussion. As promised, I’ve done some minor edits, for clarification, based on suggestions from commenters here. No change in the basic info, and an update to note the possibility of reduced water levels at Unit 3, per the BBC report. thanks for the ongoing information.
Elementary.
Good grief.
Hmmm…
In June 2008, several scientists stated that the Rokkasho plant is sited directly above an active geological fault line that could produce a magnitude 8 earthquake. But Japan Nuclear Fuel Limited have stated that there was no reason to fear an earthquake of more than magnitude 6.5 at the site, and that the plant could withstand a 6.9 quake.
Note: 8.9 >> 6.9.
Oops. Thanks for correcting that. I was lingering on the fact that this quake was 100 times stronger than the Kobe quake in 1995 and the SFO quake in 1989.
Scarecrow, you are such a Jules Verne freak.
Yes, I think it was nearly 1.5 meters.
I have a dumb question from a finance type: What do you do when your infrastructure is failing, like no electricity, batteries, pumps or generators. Do you fill it up with sea water and hope for the best?
That sounds like design performance rather than post-incident performance.
Also the recent revision that it was not 8.9 but 9.0.
There are 220 tons of water in the primary circuit in normal operation. As far as I know, the primary circuit is closed. I don’t know how long piping and so forth holds up when in contact with salt water, but we only need a few days. It appears that there are no other options available to prevent a greater catastrophe.
I do not understand how the plant has been reconfigured to get water in; there is a lot not to understand here. BWR designs are more compatible with creative responses to an emergency like this than are PWR or graphite-moderated reactors, but … wow.
Wonderful thread. Lots of good into. Thanks
That should be “info.”
Supplemental pumps and generators should be arriving by now. If they’re from elsewhere in Japan, they should be usable quickly. If they’re from foreign donors, there may be hiccups with connectivity, etc.
Does anyone know for sure what these are?
The NY Times article pretty much answers the question. You fill it up with sea water and boric acid. Then, you run as fast as you can.
More scaremongering than helpful. Pretty loose with assumed facts and causation. Reading Wikipedia might be a useful start, but shouldn’t be the end of one’s research.
a b&b is a bed & breakfast?
Read Journey to the Center of the Earth too many times. Look for him to coming popping out of Vesuvius and plopping into the Med, hale and healthy, but all evidence of his journey lost at the bottom of the sea, 20,000 leagues from home.
Yes — I’m interested in what should be in focus in the map, if the link worked. Large circular tanks of some kind?
Indubitably.
Oh I see — switch from the default “Map” view to the “Satellite” view.
I’m going to see if I can find this on Google Earth. That would be easier to point to…
I’m trying to find the Rokkasho facility in satellite imagery.
40.970327,141.290088 in Google Maps?
9.0 is 10^2 (One hundred) times greater than 7.0
Yes — a petroleum reserve facility. Where is the nuclear plant? How close to the water?
Which part of the map. I see the huge football-shape area covered with some lattice like structures.
Wikipedia sez: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=40.9625,141.326389&spn=0.01,0.01&t=m&lci=org.wikipedia.en&q=40.9625,141.326389
About 2 miles from the ocean; though unsurprisingly very close (couple hundred yards) to the local lake; and not far (half a mile) from a swamp that looks like it drains to the sea.
Ok, that makes sense. Good find!
Looks to me like it is well back from the water and there seems to be some topography there. The satellite view is old, of course — too bad.
Ok, so now we know where it is. I wonder how they are doing there?
Oh yeah and where’s Biden? Touring on behalf of the banksters:
{ snip }
(excerpt from “Biden heads to Moldova after Russia trip,” AFP American Edition, Mar 11, 2011 02:49 EST)
Why isn’t Biden helping reinvigorate US domestic investment and facilitating the creating of US domestic jobs?
Thanks for the post Scarecrow.
Regarding the question of meltdowns, on Saturday there were numerous reports of Japan’s chief cabinet secretary, Yukio Edano, saying that there hadn’t been a meltdown. Considerably less coverage was given to a story covered by Nikkei.com which reported that: “The Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency (NISA) said Saturday afternoon the explosion at the Fukushima No. 1 nuclear plant could only have been caused by a meltdown of the reactor core”. http://e.nikkei.com/e/fr/tnks/Nni20110312D12JFF03.htm
More recently, a CNN UPDATE [9:54 p.m. ET, 11:54 a.m. Tokyo] takes a stab at reconciling these prior “conflicting reports”. Long story short, Edano now says there has been a meltdown: http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/12/japan-earthquake-live-blog-death-toll-rises-amid-widespread-destruction/
CNN: The country’s chief cabinet secretary, Yukio Edano, said Sunday…”We do believe that there is a possibility that meltdown has occurred. It is inside the reactor. We can’t see. However, we are assuming that a meltdown has occurred,” he said of the No. 1 reactor at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear facility. “And with reactor No. 3, we are also assuming that the possibility of a meltdown as we carry out measures.” Edano’s comments confirm an earlier report from an official with Japan’s Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency, who said, “we see the possibility of a meltdown.”
Using the link from Prof Foland above, you can see where the reprocessing/MOX fabrication facilities are. In my browser, there is an option to select the USGS “shake map”, which shows regions of greater effects from the earthquake. Zoom out a bit, and you can see the colored areas. The shake map stops just short of the reprocessing facility, but there is no reason to believe (judging from the color coding of what is shown) that the earthquake was not equally severe at Rokkasho compared to Fukushima.
So, perhaps we can assume they felt the earthquake but maybe not the tsunami?
One thing we should be cautious of and point out to others is when news services repeat government claims as fact rather than qualify them with such things as “the government’s latest statement claims”. One example from NPR repeats the claim that “radiation” exceeded “legal limits” for a short time. That may be true, but like “torture”, news services haven’t a clue and are just following government denials.
On the other hand, they are cautious about reporting about the dead and missing. That same report claimed “2000″ were currently listed as “dead or missing”. That may be true, with emphasis on how individuals names made it onto the “list”, but alone it understates the apparent problem. More than 200 were listed missing or dead in one town. Estimates of missing, unaccounted for, exceed 10,000.
The issue isn’t to be a scaremonger or to be indelicate about the horror and lost. But how statements are qualified, if at all, shapes the news enormously and not always for the better.
It will also be useful to watch out for excuses like “shit happens” and “who could have predicted” coming out of industry. No company or government wants to be associated with liability of this magnitude.
While many factors are in play in this tragedy, it apparently wasn’t the high magnitude of the earthquake that caused the biggest problems; the reactors apparently began to shut down properly as a response to the quake. Where planning and arrangements fell down, in part, was in anticipating the effects of flood water damaging back-up power supplies. As always, the devil, the liability, effective statesmanship and responses, and teflon avoidance are all in the details.
The number of troops from the SDF force involved in search and rescue and emergency response has been doubled, from 50,000 to 100,000. That equates to several times that number for a country the size of the US, about the number of troops and mercenaries we had in Iraq at its height.
Regarding the scope of property damage and the number of missing and damage, all numbers are preliminary because rescuers are just getting to some places that have been cut off since the quake. No one really knows the scope yet; we won’t for days at best.
Using Google Earth, you can see that there have been two large aftershocks with epicenters only a couple of miles from the reprocessing facility. Magnitudes = 5.7 and 5.8. There are also several twitter feeds from this region calling for help (individuals, not from the nuclear facility).
The reprocessing facility is undoubtedly an affected region. I wonder how good their security is? I don’t see anything obvious in the satellite imagery. One imagines they have plutonium on site, huh? Let’s hope the bad guys aren’t as well-equipped as they always seem to be in James Bond movies.
The issue of vulnerability to tsunami waves depends on the shoreline geography. Tsunami waves don’t break at the shore and recede. They have much more force behind them than ordinary waves. A twenty plus foot wall of water worked its way inland for a considerable distance. Obviously higher ground and ground that increased elevation quickly would be less vulnerable than sand flats or marshes. People tend, however, to build on easier than rougher ground, especially in rural areas like this.
Coastline shape also matters. A semi-circular harbor, cove or inlet would be more vulnerable because it concentrates wave forces than a straighter coastline.
Ok, my last post in this sub-sub-chain unless I find something particularly interesting.
Here is a USGS map showing a magnitude 6.6 earthquake occurred Sat at a few minutes before 5 AM Japan time, pretty darn close to the reprocessing facility.
“The ultimate containment DID explode.” This is not necessarily true. Even if the hydrogen that exploded came from the reactor vessel (the innermost ‘container’), this gas might have exploded only in another chamber, where the pressure/atmosphere/heat/etc. was different. Furthermore this gas release *might* have been intentional or part of a planned safety measure to prevent wholesale explosion of the innermost vessel. So it’s not cut and dried in anyway.
Anyone know the proximity of the control center to the various containment buildings? These engineers have been at the helm for days, and being Japanese they are staying at their posts. Fatigue must be an issue, and what have they been exposed to? Have they all gotten a death sentence for their futures? Heroes, one and all I think.
Link to Union of Concerned Scientists All things nuclear blog update
http://allthingsnuclear.org/post/3824043948/update-on-fukushima-reactor
Thanks. The article answers several of my questions.
When it’s midnight on the left coast, it’s 5:00PM in Japan (+ 17hrs from left coast)
When it’s midnight on the east coast, it’s 2:00PM in Japan (+14 hrs from the east coast)
Got a tour some years ago of the Meson research facility at Los Alamos. The beam was “down” of course, but I remember being told that to enter the target chamber even when the facility was not operating gave you a life expectancy of about 60 seconds. Nice stuff.
Great link, thanks.
I’d say we’re keeping up with UCS pretty well here at the Lake! Plus, we’re asking about additional facilities (which may or may not be important — too soon to tell) and ruminating on what this all means for the future of nuclear energy. What a great site. We should all become members, huh?
New report from TEPCo, the owner/operator:
Radiation levels are also rising again (as before the earlier explosion in Unit 1), as of 9:00 a.m. local time Sunday (7 p.m. Eastern, Saturday, 3/12, in the U.S.), in one outside monitoring post and car at F. Daiichi. Since then, a Japanese government official has apparently indicated that the seawater filling of Unit 1 has been completed – it appears to have taken 5-10 hours, with pauses for tsunami warnings, and apparently needs to be maintained for 10 days to allow Unit 1 to reach cold shutdown.
I’ve been watching the English-language version of Japan’s NHK TV (NHK World TV). First thing Sunday morning, Japanese time, they had on a university professor to explain the planned seawater cooling of Unit 1 (the interview was in Japanese, but was translated by a voiceover). He had a simplistic schematic at hand to help illustrate what Scarecrow helpfully and carefully defines here as the “reactor vessel” (the cylindrical metal “core” containing the fuel rods), which was shown as fully contained in and surrounded by the “containment structure” (shaped like a lab flask, and apparently made of reinforced concrete). [I believe, as someone indicates above, that the top of this concrete containment structure is visible through (and is located within) the remaining upper steel frame of the reactor building of Unit 1, from which the siding and roof were blown off on Saturday.]
This Japanese professor, if the translation was accurate (and judging by the hand gestures used on the schematic), said that the seawater was going to be used to fill up the larger containment structure around the reactor vessel, rather than being used to directly cover the fuel rods in the reactor vessel itself. [No questions as to why or how, or anything getting to power sources or other problems, were raised by the interviewer. The likely success of the scheme was instead stressed by the professor.] If accurate, I wonder if that sort of indirect cooling would tend to lessen the release of radiation and/or lessen the risk of hydrogen gas explosion, assuming some fuel rods have lost their integrity inside the “reactor vessel” core?
This same interview was still being repeated by NHK TV more than twelve hours later, apparently without any other explanation or update about the technical details being provided by that professor or anyone else.
It means, as we speculated at length, that the cooling system delivering coolant to the reactor was not working. The next best thing is to pump coolant as close to the reactor as they can get. That seems to be to make it circulate in and out of the containment vessel, in which nests the reactor vessel. Obviously, less efficient and jury-rigged.
Managing the rate of coolant flow, to deal with less than desirable pressure restrictions the jury rigging will require, will compete with managing the rate at which the coolant dissipates heat to help slow the reaction and bring the core temperature down to a safe level.
Just caught the end of a fairly informative, technical news conference update about F. Daiichi’s Unit 3, held by Japan’s Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano (at about 3:30 p.m. local time, Sunday, March 13th in Japan – half an hour ago or so, before daylight savings began here). [Again, conducted in Japanese, with a voiceover translating; Edano also gave the status report about Unit 1's seawater filling earlier in the day.]
Radiation levels during the day had risen to a level of 1,557 mSv, apparently, in advance of seawater injection into Unit 3, which has now been done. Pressure venting has also taken place, probably adding to the rise of radiation. Since the water was injected, and after 2 p.m. local time, Edano indicated that the external radiation level has since been reduced to 184 mSv. [No further evacuations are being ordered at this time.]
Edano seemed to indicate, in response to questions from reporters, that more hydrogen gas has indeed been generated, because of the lowering of coolant water and resultant exposure of part of the fuel rods in Unit 3. That, seemingly, has now been remedied by the injection of seawater (again calling into question just where/how seawater is actually being inserted, per my previous comment). The gas and excess pressure has been vented to the top of the reactor building and beyond, and because vents in that building may be working better than they were in Unit 1, Edano seemed to indicate that an explosion was less likely there. But he also seems to feel that an explosion would, again, not harm the containment structure holding the reactor vessel itself, should one occur in Unit 3, as it has in Unit 1.
Edano also indicated that he’s been told that “pumps” are the problem requiring the use of seawater instead of the normal cooling system, without elaborating. [And agreed that this process will effectively end the use of both Units for power production.]
Judging by body language as compared to a press conference held by Edano earlier Sunday, they may have new confidence that their seawater solution is working as planned/hoped, for both Units 1 and 3.
Echoing Scarecrow in this post, Edano cautioned that reporters should be “careful with the terminology,” but said that yes, some deformation of the fuel rods in the reactor vessel core of Unit 3 has apparently taken place – causing a form of “meltdown,” that is, which as of now seems to match Professor Foland’s #(1) scenario above.
That is, they will be pumping presumably seawater into the structure marked as the “steel containment vessel” instead of the “reactor vessel” itself. They might also try to pump it into the the “dry well” or “concrete shell”, too, if it would hold pressure and they can get coolant to circulate. That’s the magic. The coolant will quickly pick up heat transferred from the reactor. It needs to be circulated and the heat allowed to dissipate or the coolant will turn to gas – the pressure from which needs to be contained or vented – and stop cooling.
There are these,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten_salt_reactor
But,
“There is no need for fuel fabrication. This reduces the MSR’s fuel expenses. It poses a business challenge, because reactor manufacturers customarily get their long-term profits from fuel fabrication. Since it uses raw fuel, basically just a mixture of chemicals, current reactor vendors do not want to develop it. They derive their long-term profits from sales of fabricated fuel assemblies.”
Surprise!
A partial meltdown. Exposure of the rods is a big no no. It reduces the rate at which the heat they generate is dissipated and may allow nuclear reactions to continue that the shut down is designed to slow or stop.
Sounds like the heat build up led to partial deformation of the rods and release of radioactive forms of iodine and cesium. Keeping the coolant flowing is the key. Fuel rods – like an iron still plugged in and turned on but plunged into a bath – keep generating heat. Cooling the rods, refilling the bath with cold water, does two things: keeps temperature low enough the rods can endure it without deforming and unplugs the iron, slows down the rate they produce heat.
I’m a little unclear what the point of the boric acid in the seawater is if the seawater is not being put inside the reactor with the rods.
Huh.
Couldn’t hurt, and you might need it mixed up later I guess?
Yuu know what’s sad, and at the same time pretty awesome?
It seems that we have more expertise on a highly technical subject like this here at the Lake than the huge, multi-billion dollar news orgs.
Makes me remember the early days of the BP blowout, when people like OldFieldGuy and others were decoding all the PR bullshit coming out of BP, Halliburton, and the USG.
The Independent hasn’t to hue the very careful line of the Japanese media:
Towns vanish, thousands die – but a nation begins its fightback
Doesn’t it though. But much of this is basic analysis and skepticism that informed people could readily do, but which the media often doesn’t. And it has access to real experts. They no longer have their heart, their careers, or their personal or corporate pocketbooks in doing it.
This language fuses human interest and rationale analysis in a way much US media no longer does or can do. Again, from the Independent:
Note the last paragraph. I haven’t yet seen those numbers in Japanese or America media.
I highly recommend that Independent article. In textbook fashion, it gives the numbers:
Homely similes bring home the scale of destruction to English and American suburbanites:
It captures in the net of understatement inconvenient history and the right note of skepticism toward official pronouncements:
Read the whole thing. Thanks to reporter David Randall, assisted by Midori Bills and Kyoko Nishimoto, whose words I’ve quoted.
Current estimates of insured damage are $9.5 – 15 billion. If the 1995 earthquake in Kobe eventually cost $100 billion, final estimates for this disaster will easily move the decimal point on that early estimate at least one place to the right.
Kind of hard to do that kind of reporting and front-page writing with broadcasters hired from modeling studios and reporters whose only foreign assignment was a double date they once had at Harvard with Ross Douthat.
Harder news begins to trickle out. From the Guardian, my emphasis, updating earlier reports about whether and to what extent fuel rods had been dangerously exposed above coolant levels:
Holy shit.
Per independent nuclear energy consultant (and “former head of nuclear campaigns at Greenpeace”), Shaun Burnie, interviewed by the Guardian:
That seems like a lot of exposed rod and a high volume of coolant lost, putting a considerable strain on the remaining coolant to control the reaction. Now we’re getting into Jack Lemmon and Jane Fonda territory.
As I note below, an article in Sunday’s Independent reminds us that in 2002, the president of Japan’s largest power utility resigned, along with four of his lieutenants, over allegations of falsification of nuclear plant safety records. Not all natural disasters are entirely natural.
Sorry. A post of mine below repeated that 3m of exposure info, gleaned from an article in the Independent.
The Independent quoted another expert and former Greenpeace staffer, who agrees about the added dangers of MOX when rods made with it are exposed to air.
Oh God.
It seems this danger was always there, waiting to happen. How could we have been so stupid?
Like a gigantic spring let loose. Hard to think of Earth as just a great big wound up toy.
Yep and then there is this…http://af.reuters.com/article/energyOilNews/idAFL3E7EC07P20110312
johannhari101 Johann Hari
I’m in awe of the incredibly brave technicians who’ve gone into the exploding nuclear power station in #japan to try to prevent a meltdown
Twitter.
BBC is saying Fukushima may face a second explosion.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12724953
Leave it to Digby to come up with the Shock Doctrine money shot, courtesy of the always-too-glib and always-wrong-about-finance Larry Kudlow, from this piece of video captured by Vanity Fair:
A comment from a nationally syndicated source, guaranteed to win the USA the hearts and minds of our neighbors in Japan, East Asia, and Australasia (which is battling its own weather calamities), their many relatives and friends here and around the world – and guffaws from our enemies who think we’re at war in the Middle East just to steal their oil.
We compete with Japan on many levels. We’ve also worked hard for three generations to understand and make friends with it after a bitter war. Predators prowling Wall Street, the City and in Shanghai, no doubt, wonder how they can make money from this and the world’s other great disasters. But because we won’t hear what the real players say, that’s a quote that will live in infamy.
Chris Hogg BBC News, Tokyo
“There are now problems at the number three reactor – the concern is that it is overheating. They’re trying to pump sea water through it at the moment. That’s an unusual, somewhat innovative solution to the problem. But the fact that they’re prepared to consider unusual solutions like that gives you a hint of just how serious the problem is.”
Really makes you wonder who the “they” is and how exactly are they doing this?
Conflicting tweets on the severity of Fukushima.
Fine chap. First generation British born from immigrant stock, working class upbringing in East London, socially progressive, award-winning writer with penetrating insight. The Independent’s best columnist. Not bad for a 30 year-old.
Polly Toynbee, who writes for the Guardian and comes from an entirely different background, is on the same level. Her columns closely follow David Cameron’s Eton and Oxbridge-led descent into Shock Doctrine madness, which threatens to take Britain back a 100 years. Her columns read like she’s covering the stories in Madison and Columbus. Here is her most recent.
We discussed that yesterday. It means they’ve given up on ever using that reactor again and are brainstorming, trying unusual solutions to solve immediate crises. What’s not clear is how well they work.
Yeah, BBC World Service also has conflicting info. The news loop says one thing and the reporting between loops says another regarding the status of the 2nd reactor with cooling problems.
Huffington Post has consistent updates:
Today 3:09 AM Cooling Failures In 6 Reactors, 15 Individuals Exposed
“Japan’s Kyodo News reports that the Fukushima No. 3 reactor was actually the sixth to experience cooling failures:
Tokyo Electric Power Co. said Sunday another reactor of its quake-hit Fukushima nuclear power plants had lost its cooling functions, while at least 15 people at a nearby hospital were found to have been exposed to radioactivity.
The utility supplier notified the government early Sunday morning that the No. 3 reactor at the No. 1 Fukushima plant had lost the ability to cool the reactor core. The reactor is now in the process of releasing radioactive steam, according to top government spokesman Yukio Edano.
It was the sixth reactor overall at the Fukushima No. 1 and No. 2 plants to undergo cooling failure since the massive earthquake and ensuing tsunami struck Japan on Friday.”
Per CNN scientist Bill Nye, assertions that things are okay following such an incident are “unsettling.”
Okay, and thank you for your comments, I have learned a lot.
Take a look at this article:
http://morgsatlarge.wordpress.com/2011/03/13/why-i-am-not-worried-about-japans-nuclear-reactors/
Tough set of comments at the above link, BTW.
I have a feeling that operating any of the reactors at that site again is impossible. Too much radiation.
I must have missed it. How do you seal the third containment?
The glibness and certainty, coming from a German nuclear physicist, using only published press reports for a guide, which he claims uniformly misstate the laws of physics, are not reassuring.
His headline, for one, issues a blanket reassurance. The plants in Japan are all safe. He’s a physicist in Germany, operating with superior general knowledge but the same flawed information coming out of Japan as everyone else. A little caution would seem more professional. His tone is almost a caricature of stereotypic German over-confidence: “Nein, das ist nicht moeglich! Ich bin sicher.”
I agree that press reports have been inconsistent and error-prone. That’s partly owing to the press’ limits and partly owing to the fast moving nature of this disaster, partly to official reluctance to say too much too soon. This site’s comments have pointed out many of those same errors, correctly described problems and predicted developments that in fact occurred. It has also pointed out the over-optimism coming from official sources, which those sources later retreated from.
The issue, for example, was not whether theses events would produce a mushroom cloud. Fox Noise may have worried about that. It was whether the cooling systems in each reactor would work adequately to prevent full or partial meltdowns. He says of course they will. It was also whether the damaged reactors would release substantial amounts of materials than have a half life longer than it takes to spell “radiation” – the dismissive comparison he makes early on. He says of course not. He does gives a good summary of the basic physics and operating issues. We pieced the same story together here, too, and corrected the errors in conflict press reports.
To my mind, is comments rely too much on how things ought to work and assume too much about how things are working out in fact in Japan. His point is to reassure. I admire his confidence and hope it’s justified. I would certainly check out the sites he recommends at the end of his piece for those who want to follow events.
Maybe they can use nuclear lobbyist to soak up the excess radiation.
Someone did check his recommended sources and determined that they are owned by pro-nuclear people. As a reader who knows absolutely nothing about nuclear plants, I found it interesting, but agree that his rosy prediction was dismissive.
I have no clue.
Excellent comment. It does remind you of how fundamentally incompetent the US media is and that they are essentially lapdogs and flaccid stenographers sent to protect corporate interests instead of the public interest.
Not so much this morning. one guy on MSNBC says this situation is approaching a 6 on the disaster scale. Chernobyl was a 7.
I suspect a lot of the NOOZ is being managed to prevent “panic”, as if the people of Japan aren’t already panicked.
Also, the Japanese are notorious for their “face saving” instincts.
Here’s a “good” video over @ Prison Planet
http://www.infowars.com/media-coverup-of-massive-chernobyl-event-underway-in-japan/
Of course, the reporting is being done OUTSIDE the nuclear friendly US
Thank you for this excellent thread.
Now they’re saying the earthquake was actually a 9.1
Gotta be the biggest ever
A very informative article. Thanks for the link to it.
For anyone else who is interested in reading it, I suggest beginning with the ten-bullet-point conclusion and only then reading the body of the article.
Here in New Mexico, local Saturday evening news scientist commenting was the worst I have seen – to the effect that ‘these buildings are built to withstand anything so there is no credible cause for alarm.’
Thank you, Scarecrow and posters here. It is far better to know than not to know, at least as far as it is possible to do so.
Have any news releases detailing radiation?
BBC World Service is currently reporting that radiation in region around the plant had exceded legal limits. But they didn’t define legal limits, they didn’t say how far things had gone beyond said limits, nor did they say if the increase was being sustained(as opposed to increasing/decreasing).
Anyone who thinks we are getting the truth about the true state of things regarding Japan’s nuclear reactors is living in La-La Land. Based on the experience past disasters of this nature, I feel safe believing it is far worse than being reported. Has plutonium escaped? Just because they say it hasn’t doesn’t mean a thing. Japan and the nuclear industry have a vested interest in minimizing the danger. Let’s not be naive here. Want to limit meltdowns? Don’t build the reactors in the first place.
My scientific nomenclature was off, I think, but as I noted in my last comment above, the Japanese government told the media at about 3:30 p.m. local time Sunday that the level of radiation outside the F. Daiichi plant had reached 1,557 microsieverts (not millisieverts, or mSv, as I said above) at some point during the day, but had since been reduced (after 2 p.m. local time) to 184 microsieverts.
TEPCo has radiation monitoring posts located around the plant boundary, and there is also some sort of “monitoring car” measuring radiation levels outside the plant. Seemingly only one of their Daiichi monitoring posts has regularly been indicating the presence of radiation (iodine, etc.), per their press releases.
It’s the middle of the night in Japan, and information is being recycled, but here’s some summary information I’ve recently heard Japanese TV reporting:
At the Fukushima Daiichi complex (where they have no off-site power available at this time), they attempted to connect an external (replacement) power generator, but were unsuccessful.
At F. Daiichi’s Unit 3, the fuel/control rods were above the level of the coolant water by “2.2 meters” (the rods may be covered again now by seawater). The venting valves to the exterior environment at Unit 3 have been opened, and closed once (this latter point made little sense as reported).
Seven miles away, at the Fukushima Daini complex, where Units 1, 2, and 4 are having difficulty cooling, TEPCo has off-site power available, per their press releases, so that’s not the problem. The TV reporting said that TEPCo is attempting to replace the “pump motors” overnight at F. Daini, to restore full cooling capacity. [Have these pump motors been flooded or harmed by the earthquake and/or electrical fluctuations in some way?] The Daini complex’s radiation monitoring posts show no elevation in radiation at that site, per TEPCo press releases.
Here’s TEPCo’s 9 p.m. local time update on F. Daiichi’s Unit 3:
Also, more generally:
http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/11031312-e.html
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/nhk-world-tv
Morning update on radiation levels at the Fukushima Daiichi plant, from NHK TV’s live broadcast at 7:30 a.m. Monday in Japan:
The “ordinary” or non-emergency radiation release level established by the government is apparently 500 microsieverts per hour.
Overnight, TEPCo reported to the government a rise above that level at F. Daiichi, to 720(?, at 2 a.m.?) microsieverts, dropping to 600-650 microsieverts at about 3:30 a.m. Monday. Since then (that is, since four hours ago), the radiation level outside the plant has dropped again, and is now below the 500 microsieverts/hour trigger level. TEPCo had no explanation for this rise and fall in radiation levels overnight, based on any actions taken in its struggle with the ongoing cooling issues in Units 1 and 3.
Based on reporting Monday morning (before 11 a.m., local time) on Japan’s NHK TV, the planned replacement of the pump motors was a success for Units 1 and 2, at the Fukushima Daini plant. The water pumps of those two units reportedly have “efficiently resumed cooling” the reactor vessels. The pump motor replacement work for Unit 4 is still ongoing, but is expected to be finished on Monday, according to the newscast.
Meanwhile, at F. Daiichi, based on TEPCo press release information, the “fire pump” has been used to inject seawater into Unit 3. However, the water level gauge in that unit is apparently now suspected of malfunctioning, and thus crucial facts about the actual level of coolant in the reactor of Unit 3 are in question.