Tweet
Breaking: There are [now confirmed] reports of yet another explosion at Unit 4, presumably associated with the fire.
________
Japan’s Prime Minister gave a press conference at 11:00 a.m. (Tokyo) Tuesday and an official overseeing the nuclear emergencies answered questions about the status of the four units at Fukushima Nuclear Station.
The briefing part revealed there has been an explosion and fire at Unit 4 which, as of the presser, they were still trying to control. [Later reports say it's [now] extinguished.
Unit 4 had not been operating when the quakes hit last week and was supposedly in safe cold shutdown. However, cooling at that reactor is still required for the spent fuel pools, and its absence is a problem that can allow heat buildup from residual radioactive decay. The damage associated with this fire caused a significant radiation leak and apparently an explosion.
Officials suggested that this source, and not solely or necessarily the explosion at Unit 2, may be the source of highly elevated radiation readings at the Station. Because of increased levels, the government evacuated about 800 non-essential personnel from the Fukushima Daiichi Station, leaving only 50 workers to continue with sea water injections at all units.
The Government also directed that the public evacuation radius be set at 20 kilometers, and that between 20 and 30 km, residents remain indoors. Later reports note detecting higher levels of radiation in Tokyo and other cities.
The official emphasized the very high levels of radiation near Unit 4, with the measurement units being expressed in mili-sievert levels instead of micro-sievert levels. Whereas before we had as high as 8,217 micro-sievert/hour, the new readings were more like 300-400 mili-sieverts/hour near Unit 4. The official noted this level is clearly dangerous to humans.
The official said that as of 6:00 a.m. Tuesday, all but 50 workers involved in water injections have been evacuated. Sea water injections are still bein attempted at Units 1, 2, and 3. [earlier reports suggested they only had the fire equipment to deal with one plant at a time.]
Following is a paraphrase of the Q and A with the official overseeing nuclear issues:
Q. How are you sure the pressure vessel has not been damaged?
A. Water injection has been maintained. And pressure has been stabilized; we have to continue those efforts.
Q. How serious is fire at Unit 4?
A. I mentioned it first because it occurred earlier.
Q. Is there damage to part of the containment vessel?
A. There is a high probability that it was. [May be a mistranslation of terms here]
Q. Radiation levels a threat to the public?
A. Very little possibility of harm to public
Q. Status of fire at Unit 4?
A. Still working to extinguish the fire at Unit 4.
Q. Evacuation radius?
A. Out to 20 km = evacuate. Considering out to 30 km; but for now, just stay indoors.
Q. Radiation readings related to damage to Unit 2?
A. Explosion at #4 reactor could have caused that [after explosion?]
Q. What if fire continues?
A. We’re making every effort to put it out. The spent fuel is not going to “catch fire” in general sense, but its heat likely caused the fire. Fire is in building area; but it’s best to extinguish to keep temps down and prevent release of radiation.
Q. Further release from other units?
A. Possible some could have been released. Ask TEPCO. But current high readings are from this fire/explosion at Unit 4, not from the Unit 2.
Q. What is your advice?
A. [Repeats evac and remain indoors] Minimal amounts may spread further, but further away the level is lower, so stay calm.
In another Onadaga plant, the levels will not cause damage to health.
A. For people between 20-30 km range, there are towns that overlap/in beetween. He calls them out. [About 8-10 towns]
Q. Sec. Gen. of IAEA says you asked for experts?
A. Not aware of any Japanese request to IAEA, but after quake, we’ve asked for support from various countries.
Q. Neutron radiation?
A. That was from Unit 3, because of its nature [fuel type]
Q. How long to extinguish Unit 4 fire, given you think it’s source of radiaion?
A. Working on it.
Q. Are you ontinuing to inject water at all units?
A. Yes. Thank you for your questions.
238 Comments
digits all crossed
I want to cry. Time to check the batteries in my Geiger counter?
Thanks so much for staying on top of this Scarecrow. I had hoped never to have to dig out my old health physics textbooks, but I guess I should start looking for them now…
I’m going to take a break.
I put a lot of responses to reasonable questions that came to me during the presser in the last thread.
Back later. I need to get some perspective.
Oops, posted at other thread: so a cold shutdown was not enough, given a fire at reactor #4, with spent fuel rods present. My heart really goes out to the firefighters. This is just awful.
thank you
Props for the stamina thus far.
Thanks for your input since this started. I’m going to get some sleep and see what sense I can make of things in the morning.
I think everyone should hug someone who means a lot to them tonight. The world just got much tougher.
Are we even sure there are firefighters? Only 50 crew left on-site, only one fire pump working. How much can they do?
I want to thank everyone for the most excellent ongoing info.
My head is spinning.
Anybody got a cigarette?
Seems much too late to worry about lung cancer.
10,000 thanks for your work on this.
As is always the case, the corporate bullshit gives way to incremental truths coming out. A little while ago, the word was that there was nothing to worry about; the amount of radiation released by the explosion of #2 was miniscule, and that you’d get a higher dose from getting an X-ray.
Now, that is changing, and the word “catastrophic” is rearing it’s ugly-but-truthful head in the descriptions of what’s going on at Dai-ichi #2:
http://apnews.myway.com//article/20110315/D9LVD3C00.html
Guess I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue…
Thanks for all of this.
Comment at the Reuters liveblog.
We been Nuked… Shit the Dinos will have lasted longer than than the human race.. Looks like greed will be our down fall. sad so sad.. We screwed the Pooch and are being paid back by Mother Nature and I can’t blame her..
And how long can they live?
This is a classic case of big money interest putting the yen ahead of the earth, humans and all of god other creations.
One of Govt. main mission is to protect the earth and humans from idiots who only care about making more gold.
Putting the back up generators at sea level, screams safety and common sense were thrown out the door.
Can hardly wait for TDS gallows humor in 5 minutes.
ProducerMatthew [http://twitter.com/ProducerMatthew]
Just in: Radiation up to 9 times normal level detected in Kanagawa, some 200 km south of Fukushima and well-past Tokyo – Kyodo
Is there damage to container vessel?
A. Report there is a high probability that it was.
How do they know its a high probability? I understand things are murky information wise but how do they think they know something just curious.
bless you
Thanks for your work. I for one greatly appreciate your efforts.
Amen
1. Don’t build nukes by the sea or in seismic zones.
2. Don’t build nukes by population centers.
3. Don’t build nukes without a plan to deal with the spent fuel.
4. Don’t build nukes depending on claims by the builders, utility or their gov’t sponsor.
5. Don’t build nukes.
OMG
the Japanese Govt. is not telling the truth?
what is going on here?
Note from Tokyo (suspect English is the 2nd language – guessing collapsed should mean evacuated).
Try this:
http://www.ehs.washington.edu/rsotrain/index.shtm
online rad safety training resources from the UW
Not sure if there’s a log-in requirement. But the U doesn’t usually remember my home IP info…
From EPUland:
No shortage of irony that the country the U.S. tried to destroy with nukes is now in the process of destroying itself with nukes.
Can think of a few other countries that are in the process of analogous behaviors. Not nukes, but destroying themselves in similar fashion that outside forces tried in the past.
What is sad is that Japan refused Nuclear weapons; they have survivors from the WW2 bombs, and warned India against running any tests.
I picked up a tweet that said the government was being sued because these plants were not safe on a fault line.
TDS?
been to California lately,
somebody better tell California to shut down their nuke plants ASAPS
Well, pressure in the vessel was three atmospheres prior to the explosion and one atmosphere post explosion. I’d say pretty damned high.
How long will it take to restore full power to Japan?
Kyodo: Hydrogen explosion occurs at Fukushima No. 4 reactor.
oh no
Wasn’t your greed and my greed. We were indoctrinated in schools. It took years to learn that Thanksgiving was a myth – that our ancestors had stolen this land from the Natives.
What could we do? If we revolt, we’ll be locked up or killed. We were born into this corrupt system.
We thought Obama offered hope and change. He lied.
Or the writer means “collapsed into chaos”, which seems to be the fears/he’s expressing.
Jed, there’s an OLD reactor, of the same type as Three Mile Island, near Southport, N.C. It’s right on the Cape Fear river. A 10-12 foot storm surge from a hurricane would surely threaten it. It’s a few miles from Wilmington, and about 50 miles north of Myrtle Beach.
They claim to have upgraded it, but I don’t know how you’d downgrade a class 5 hurricane, at least, in the force and storm surge it generates.
What diff does it make when power returns. There won’t be any people left anyhow.
well GE helped alot
Just to flag this: I believe this is new news of the last few minutes.
True statement?
BREAKING NEWS: Hydrogen explosion occurs at Fukushima No. 4 reactor (11:53)
I have updated the post, added intro, and we’ve included the tv link.
I missed the first few minutes of the official statement, so lemme know if we need to add further general text. However, note that the tv station is repeated statements from the presser.
On the Kyodo News ticker.
Looks like spent fuel is on fire at Reactor 4.
Why are people waiting still for food and fuel Japan I thought they beat the world in disaster planning? I ask not to fault Japan but to remind people the GOP wants more budget cuts for warnings about tidal waves, earthquakes, tornadoes etc.
The Daily Show. It started on some other topic and I couldn’t stand Stewart’s superciliousness, so I turned it off.
so now what?
I’ve update the intro to the post to provide more context. Thanks to all for your help in keeping up, bring links and correcting any mistakes.
Great commentors!
They are like the selfless heroes that poured concrete on the shattered Chernobyl reactor knowing that they risked certain death. My prayers for all those who risked all to save their fellow citizens.
No, I don’t sense despair, he/she is asking for sound survival advice.
Here is the nuclear reactor glossary again:
http://www.nuclearglossary.com/abcs/nuclearglossary_M.html
Japan was not forced to build nuke reactors.
BREAKING NEWS: Fire at No.4 reactor apparently put out: Tokyo Electric (12:04)
Kyodo News Ticker
Breaking news on NYC local news: Bus crash kills 2. (I kid you not.)
So, #4 went up?
Earlier they were talking as if they had control of the decision to vent hydrogen and risk the explosion, and made it, to blow the lid on the reactor buildings, to avoid a complete meltdown. Is that still the line they’re taking?
Thank you lobster.
Someone is plugging Reuters.
http://live.reuters.com/Event/Japan_earthquake2
The whole country last I heard was having rolling power blackouts people without power might not hear the latest evacuation order I think its 19 miles now. Plus no power no refrigeration for food I think by now most of the frozen meat and fish in Japan is about to go bad that means the refugees from the tidal wave might get more hungry.
this is the result of corporate govt.
corporate govt. = death to humans
the people of Southport NC better wake up and march tomorrow
Crap like this proves how evil a person like OBAMA is.
Progressives thought they voted for someone who cared about Humans, NOT, we elected a nut who just approve drilling the GULF, and more Nuclear Reactors.
AJ has a live feed
I’m going to try a Q from last thread that I didn’t express accurately, so was misunderstood.
With multiple cores at the same location, won’t an exposion in one risk explosion in others. And unlike Chernobyl, with only one core at the location, won’t multiply cores multiply the catastrophe.
The brains in the audience can handle only so much agitation.
mebbe GE gave them an offer they couldnt refuse…just speculatin
going to go drink…ALOT
http://www.ehs.washington.edu/rsotrain/index.shtm
online rad safety training resources from the UW
Not sure if there’s a log-in requirement. But the U doesn’t usually remember my home IP info…
Among other things, the “principles of radiation safety” goes through the history, basic physics, and various units of measure.
the elites are scared that the Japanese World Disaster will wipe them out.
why is the main story on local news in NY a Bus Crash?
Where Al Jazeera, the only news organization only planet Earth
Apparently this Nuclear Company in Japan may be own by someone like Cheney, God forbid! but the MSM is now saying that this Nuclear Company in charge in Japan is shady.
GOOD
They trust the instruments and gauges in the reactor after everything that has happened?
The containment vessels for each reactor are located in separate structures. Can’t tell the exact distance, but it’s probably 100 meters, mas o menos.
duck tape
school desk…..check
And the Japanese people, whatever is left of them, will pay the bill in lives & treasure. The Jap. elite have prolly already left in their private jets.
Report from the Reuter blog was that it was spent fuel on the 4th floor that was burning.
I’m already doing that. I’m looking for someone with cigarettes now.
You must live near the Gulf coast, where the country is putting its more risky ventures….
In all honesty, it’s really hard for me to take you seriously anymore after that bit about a plot involving HAARP and a movie….
sort of like a domino effect?
I’m sure flying debris from one explosion could damage other buildings.
I suspect also that with their limited resources for pumping/cooling, the spent-fuel pool at #4 ended up low on the priority list and heated up to dangerous levels. The “back burner” still being rather hot, so to speak.
I may be mis-remembering, but I think there were multiple cores at Chernobyl. For reasons someone (lobster? Professor Foland?) enumerated before you joined the last thread, individual reactor units tend to be clustered, as at Fukushima and TMI. I’ll see if I can find the comment.
Well just so you know that the Chernobyl explosion was not a nuclear explosion and there can be no nuclear explosions from these reactors.
Explosion is not the risk. In a nuclear explosion the intense energy and heat destroys. The risk is contamination. Little tiny bits of radioactive elements and compounds which then stay in your body. Little bitty teeny tiny bits of energy over long periods.
This is a rather simple concept that seems difficult for many to grasp. There was very little contamination at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The nuclear material was mostly blown high into the atmosphere and dispersed.
It is impolite to abbreviate Japanese to Jap. Sort of like it is vulgar to abbreviate Palestinian to Pal. Some consider both terms racist, many consider them denigrative.
My understanding is that multiple plants were put in the same area due to logistics, NIMBY, permits etc.
The problem here is that multiple reactors went “bad” at once, as I understand it anyway. So, if they have to abandon, one, in this case, they all melt down.
I gotcha covered. Over there. Next to the broccoli. Hand rolled. No preservatives. Like it matters. *g*
NYT is basically saying that Japan has Nuclear Meltdown taking place right now!
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/15/world/asia/15nuclear.html?_r=1
TOKYO — Japan faced the likelihood of a catastrophic nuclear accident Tuesday morning, as an explosion at the most crippled of three reactors at the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station damaged its crucial steel containment structure, emergency workers were withdrawn from the plant, and a fire at a fourth reactor spewed large amounts of radioactive material into the air, according to official statements and industry executives informed about the developments.
I sincerely hope with all of my heart that as we spend days and hours being shocked by each revelation coming out of Japan…
we give as much time to one another and all whom we meet the sense of how fragile we are and how much harm we are capable of inflicting on ourselves and others…
Love is not a concept…it is the universal balm of healing…let’s please not forget what is happening right now and lets not have this disaster become just Japan’s problem…
it is OUR problem as well…we are all connected!
My heart cries out for every child, woman, and man on that little island.
Shady indeed. http://af.reuters.com/article/energyOilNews/idAFL3E7EC07P20110312
read an article a few years ago,about a quake in Tokyo causing a world wide depression,cant find it online anymore,it was after the Kyoto one
For those with a weakness for the pitcher shows.
It’s how neoliberalist experiments always end.
American Spirit has an “organic” pack. I smoke about 1 every month or two. Always buy the organic, and laugh at myself every time.
Well, Jed, the NYTimes IS saying that Japan is now facing a potential nuclear catastrophe:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/15/world/asia/15nuclear.html
Only, it’s interesting to note that while 180K people were evacuated after #1 blew, we’re not hearing any new numbers now that three more have gone up, and that there’s finally a declaration of a harmful release of radiation.
I imagine the highways leading away from that part of Japan are being jammed, as we speak.
Approximate lethal dose (“LD50″) if no treatment and given to the entire body in a short period: 4,500 mSv (milli-sieverts).
Anybody with a net worth of 20 million dollars or so can easily afford a private jet with pilot on standby. So all those guys are long gone. Wonder how many public servants – politicians – are still around.
The PM has a bunker no doubt.
Get a grip.
Well said. Thank you.
catastrophe multiplied only because the same disaster-producing failures affected the multiple reactors all at the same time.
animals,butterflies…todo
Nothing to see here. O has moved on to gun control.
Hand rolled American Spirits is what we got, babe.
Looking at the Ministry presser, I think a word may have been garbled.
A. “We’re making every effort to put it out. The spent fire is not going to “catch fire” in general sense.”
The last sentence doesn’t make general or particular sense. Change one word, and it does:
A. “We’re making every effort to put it out. The spent *fuel* is not going to “catch fire” in general sense.”
This would also be consistent with reports that the fire in reactor 4 is high up in the building: where the ‘spent’ fuel rod pool is.
Guess what nation builds Nuclear Power Plants close to earthquake areas? Yes the USA
apparently the USA thinks, they can build Nuke Plants that can withstand an earthquake.
and fixing NCLB
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_Nuclear_Power_Plant
Chernobyl did have more than one reactor/core. Number 4 was the one that failed so catastrophically in ’86, but according to wikipedia, the other reactors were online until ’99.
Chernobyl actually had three “cores”. Only one blew up. The other two were in cold shut-down when they tried their disastrous experiment.
Cold shut-down means that there aren’t any hot fuel rods actually in the reactor. They have been completely removed.
That is the situation for Daiichi numbers 4-6 and Daini #4. Those reactors are in the beginning stages of retirement, and the Daiichi #1, #2 and #2 and the Daini #1, #2 and #3 were scheduled to be retired very soon as well. Unfortunately their retirement did not arrive soon enough.
With multiple cores at the same location, won’t an exposion in one risk explosion in others.
Yes in several ways if radiation is released at high enough levels because one core’s containment fails then workers trying to stop another reactor from going up will all have to wear lead suits. Imagine moving wrenches, fixing electric wiring while wearing gloves and a visor that fogs over.
If a meltdown hits the cement foundation and starts burning a foundation already weakened by an earthquake, tidal wave, boric acid then if the reactors all share the same foundation the other reactors containment walls and cooling pipes might get misaligned as the walls under the foundation shift.
That means radiation gets released and water for any cooling system still working does not get delivered as pipes rupture.
I’m sure there are more bad things that can happen that I’m missing. But one reactor going up won’t set off the others to go off if thats what you are asking.
Unless two reactors meltdown and their cores mare contact under ground as they burn but by then Japan will already be toast.
And unlike Chernobyl, with only one core at the location, won’t multiply cores multiply the catastrophe.
It is very racist, no matter how many time you pretend it is not. Get a grip on your own racist speech, and the hatred it reveals.
Your use of that term defiles the good people here, and disgraces FDL.
Nuke plants are built where ever there is water. Civilization is also located near water, either for drinking/ag or for transportation (oceans).
It’s a feature, not a bug.
Amended for scale:
Average annual dose (excluding natural background) for medical X-ray technicians: 3.2 mSv
If we were rapidly moving to an all out catastrophe, what O’ has to say would be of very little consequence!
Booze Smokes yeah have to party with all of you sometime:) I hate having to stand outside a bar in winter for a smoke.
And wherever there is water sufficient to service a nuke plant, there is danger of catastrophy, just to make my point clear.
Me Thinks the New York Stock Exchange will crash tuesday, because Austrailia market already has
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102×4771116
Shares plummet after radiation warning
Australia’s sharemarket has plunged after Japan’s Prime Minister Naoto Kan warned radiation levels around quake-stricken nuclear reactors in north-eastern Japan were rising, shaving as much as $40 billion off the value of the local market.
The benchmark S&P/ASX 200 index was recently down 119.3 points, or 2.6 per cent, at 4507.1, while the broader All Ordinaries index lost 118 points, or 2.4 per cent, to 4592.1.
The Australian dollar was at $US1.0027, compared with $US1.0041 before the PM’s statement. That compared with Monday’s local close of $US1.0079.
Mr Kan also said that people between 20km and 30km from reactor should stay indoors.
the elites know, that this is really bad!
Any comments from japanese media etc on spent fuel rods…
When battery-powered cooling failed, hydrogen in two of the units exploded, damaging the reactor buildings—and, apparently, the spent-fuel area as well. Satellite photos appear to show that two cranes used to move spent fuel into the pool “are both gone,” Alvarez told a press conference organized by Friends of the Earth, a nonprofit environmental group that opposes nuclear power. “There has definitely been damage to the pool area.”
Fuel-storage pools ‘contain very large concentrations of radioactivity, can catch fire, and are in much more vulnerable buildings’ than the reactors.
The pools “contain very large concentrations of radioactivity, can catch fire, and are in much more vulnerable buildings,” he warns. If the pools lose their inflow of circulating cooling water, the water in the pools will evaporate. If the level of water drops to five or six feet above the spent fuel, Alvarez calculates, the release of radioactivity “could be life-threatening near the reactor building.” Since the total amount of long-lived radioactivity in the pool is at least five times that in the reactor core, a catastrophic release would mean “all bets are off,” he says.
Of particular concern: cesium-137 in the pool, at levels Alvarez estimates at 20 million to 50 million curies. The 1986 Chernobyl accident released about 40 percent of the reactor core’s 6 million curies. In a 1997 report for the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, scientists at Brookhaven National Laboratory estimated that a severe pool fire—made possible by the loss of cooling water—could leave about 188 square miles uninhabitable and cause up to 28,000 cancer deaths.
None of the Cal plants are built to withstand an earthquake of 9.0, let alone the 9.2 of the ’64 AK quake.
“O has moved on to gun control.”
And the National Rifle Association is pissing themselves…to have such a fearless adversary going after them. He didn’t even mention hi-capacity magazines in his talking-goody-two-shoes shitspeak.
I hear you,
but the USA has experts saying their nuke plants are earth quake proof?
me thinks this is not possible
The only thing the shills for the nuclear industry have proven in this crisis: that in a crisis, they won’t tell the truth.
Academic credentials need to be stripped.
pajarito March 14th, 2011 at 7:00 pm «
1. Don’t build nukes by the sea or in seismic zones.
2. Don’t build nukes by population centers.
3. Don’t build nukes without a plan to deal with the spent fuel.
4. Don’t build nukes depending on claims by the builders, utility or their gov’t sponsor.
5. Don’t build nukes.
The news around the world is getting so bad O heck Governor Walker is getting edged out of the news cycle it seems.
This, like practically everything else that’s going on, is going to accelerate the I’ve-got-mine-fuck-you-Jack! worldview.
A big shout-out to Mr. Status Quo for sustaining that enlightened self-interest.
does this mean 35 million humans have to move from Tokyo?
because if this is the case, I think the people of Tokyo need to know that now!
“Academic credentials need to be stripped.”
Bingo!
That idiot from the U. of Illinois who was flacking for the nuke power industry is probably in hiding, as events cascade.
You will have any magazine capacity, but the double-action feature will be eliminated….
And Russia Today.
If IRNA (the Iranian news agency) is telling the truth, then we just may have seen the death of the “West”.
Ok now the Republicans are going to get concerned!
Amazing news about the unbelievable efforts of the employees of TEPCo, now working in protective gear in a contaminated environment:
Kyodo News at 12:04 p.m., Japan time, Tuesday, March 15 reports:
“Fire at No. 4 reactor apparently put out: Toyko Electric”
http://english.kyodonews.jp/
Jed, if it comes to that, they’ll sneak up on it, like it was a big snipe hunt. Of course, as someone noted upthread, there are probably already Learjets taking off like seagulls from Tokyo International.
Which, come to think of it, would make a good story for some honest journalists.
Meanwhile, the feds in the US are addressing more pressing matters.
http://www.bozemandailychronicle.com/news/article_96adb40a-4e72-11e0-b6b6-001cc4c002e0.html
Any numbers on how much and what kind of radiation may be released by the Fukushima reactors under different scenarios—for example, a day’s full core exposure of a single reactor core—based on what’s now known?
Not to be alarmist, but should people on the west coast of the U.S. think seriously about picking up an Iosat pack about now? What is the distance between Japan and, say, Oregon at prevailing wind speeds? What levels of radiation might migrate that far?
Okay, conflicting reports:
1. Is the fire continuing or out?
2. Has there been a further explosion at unit 4 in the last hour or so?
S&P futures down 20 ATM.
Does anyone on the Tee Vee understand what Nuclear Meltdown mean? apparently not
this is not a Katrina Moment
this is more like an Abandon Japan Moment.
Humans have yet again let loose a HELL they can’t control, that can kill Humans.
are humans smarter than dinosaurs? maybe not
Al Jazeera’s live feed reports that “earthquake” and “tsunami” caused damage is NOT covered by the insurance TEP has in place.
That means an expensive govt. bail-out; TEP will be deemed too big to fail. It will remain as the conduit for clean-up and reconstruction, as well as the operator of its other facilities. Individuals and groups of executives will almost certainly, perhaps some literally, perform seppuku.
For everyone else, our hearts and prayers go out to you, and not because we’re downwind.
What did you expect Illinois leads the country in nuclear reactors get a tobacco expert from tobacco country to talk about the dangers of smoking and you expect the same results.
Not many people however know Illinois nuclear connections though the MSM thought they could bring in a ringer.
Check the end of the previous thread on this subject —-> Lobsters comments are best
“What is the distance between Japan and, say, Oregon at prevailing wind speeds?”
http://www.accuweather.com/blogs/news/story/46940/winds-at-japan-power-plants-sh-1.asp
Let’s not forget some of Obama’s greatest hits, like this on nuclear as he just doesn’t wants corps to silence environmentalists:
“On an issue which affects our economy, our security, and the future of our planet, we cannot continue to be mired in the same old debates between left and right; between environmentalists and entrepreneurs.”
http://www.foe.org/president-obamas-risky-nuclear-industry-bailout
This could go right up there with Obama’s pro-corporate statements on offshore drilling:
“I want to put out, by the way, that oil rigs today generally don’t cause spills. They are technologically very advanced. Even during Katrina, the spills didn’t come from the oil rigs, they came from the refineries onshore.”
http://my.firedoglake.com/fflambeau/2010/05/07/barack-obama-oil-rigs-today-generally-dont-cause-spills-they-are-technologically-very-advanced/
It looks like whenever Obama endorses something, it’s a good reason to expect a disaster to come of it because Obama is a disaster of a President.
On Reuters they’re saying it is.
Indian Point is on the Hudson, 24 miles north of Manhattan. With road infrastructure completely inadequate for evacuation in a disaster. After 9/11 “everyone” said IP was impenetrable with commercial jets flying 400 mph.
Oh sure.
BREAKING NEWS: Small amounts of radioactive substances detected in Tokyo (12:37)
Kyodo news ticker.
Today is Black Tuesday in Tokyo.
Reuters tweets: “Tokyo govt has detected minute amount of radiation in Tokyo – Kyodo quoting Tokyo met govt”
If Japan bails out the insurance company then can they still afford to buy our T-Bills?
We can finance the wars without them.
In a crisis, no authority tells the truth.
Of course, no authority tells the truth at any time, only it doesn’t matter as much if it’s not a crisis.
That should read, “will almost certain “figuratively”, perhaps some literally, perform seppuku.”
Figuratively by way of resignation, public apology and humiliation; others may prefer the traditional method. Let’s hope there’s no room in Switzerland, Monaco or the Caribbean for executives, their number crunchers and their highly-paid consultants – if any, if any – whose decisions actively led to this potential catastrophic.
I’ll loan them my least sharp knife.
Anyone have any links of Cheney’s ties to HAARP?
It almost feels like Gotterdamerung. It may be.
nothing says the govt is lying like a Stock Market crashing
the PM said there was a leak (this is kind of radical)
PM did not say when the leak would end? thus the big problem
Nuclear Meltdowns are not natural, this is a man made HELL on earth creature
Thank god the human tragedy is bigger than the economic tragedy. /Kudlow
from Reuters blog: “Radiation levels in Saitama near Tokyo 40 times normal levels: Kyodo quoting local government”
I have a spoon….
Thanks. I did. I saw numbers for current radiation but not an analysis of how bad this may get, and where. Which may be unknowable because of the multitude of variable. I’m simply asking.
Do I recall correctly that you are a conservator of a multi-head rated katana?
LIke I said in earlier thread, putting the ‘spent’ fuel rods in a “pool” above the reactor is like putting the gas tank of your car right above the engine. We have the same design flaw in plants here in U.S. Vermont I believe has one.
Thank you so much, lobster. You are invaluable. Get some rest.
The predators on Wall Street, the City and elsewhere will keep up that schtick until they’re downwind.
OMG!
What is going on here?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102×4771146
French saying Radioactive cloud heading toward US west coast?
and USG is where?
Sounds bad, but how bad I guess depends on how long it lasts. I know a single CT scan is about 300 times normal daily exposure.
I’d look at Obama’s ties with Exelon and how Obama will generally sell out the safety to the corps.
Let’s hope the wind changes and this stays quasi-manageable, lest we descend into Stephen King territory. I know, hope is not a plan.
Any power company that does not have any nuclear plants or power company that does not make nuclear plants I am sure are a buy right now.
Long term this will help green energy, it might even convince people around the world to give up nuclear power.
Short term 30% beef Taco Bell might stop advertising their Pacific Shrimp tacos which I suspect given the cheapness of their food are really Gulf Shrimp.
Mcdonalds told Vegans once their fries were cooked in vegetable oil I remember when they were cooked in beef fat its not like business has lied before.
Japan shows us the lies about nuclear power safety and the ability of industry and government to handle the situation.
Small lies like fast food lies lead to bigger lies as liars get more confident they won’t ever be punished.
My heart is breaking. It is hard to see that for the foreseeable future, read thousands of years, there will at best be a steaming sore on half Japanese Islands poisoning and deforming all who come close or who are touched by its effluences.
The current status of Chernobyl is so awful, and it is in a relatively low population areas.
Roses for the brave workers who lost their lives there and are in the process of sacrificing them now— all in obeisance to man’s hubris.
Units
Sf-So-fucked units
WSf-We’re-so-fucked units= 10k Sf
milliWSF= ??
What is TEPCO’s financial condition? It is likely that they could not get the risks from earthquakes and tsunami’s underwritten. Be interested to see the degree they self-insured over 40 years for a possible earthquake, if they did at all.
The LA Times article today put the design parameters of the San Onofre plant at a 7.0 quake (it’s probably 50/60 miles away from the San Andres, capable of at least that much, and five miles away from a major off-shore fault), and has a 25 foot sea wall to protect from tsunami. But the picture shows a joke of a wall.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/03/san-onofre-nuclear-plant-can-withstand-quakestsunamis-officials-say.html
Yeah. Nice design.
Now we all know
corporate govt will destroy the human race
what fool puts fuel rods above a reactor?
Humans are not a form of intelligent life.
the idea that Humans could fight a group of Aliens with superior fire power is foolish!
an intelligent species would just watch and wait for humans to kill themselves
How is GEs numbers doing? Inhuman bastards…first nuke plants, then death weapons, then Jay Leno.
On the east coast.
My ex lives in Southport…I just sent him this item.
As Scarecrow said on the previous thread, of the presser held by TEPCO:
“They basically stonewalled the reporters questions…”
Which is a good reason for being very, very, skeptical when they start cavorting about the fire at #4 being put out.
If the wind is from the NNW, the immediate direction will be toward Fiji. How long does it take to circulate from Fiji?
The important sentence in that story begins “The exact direction of the winds at the time of release….” Well, from the NNW goes toward the SSE, which is Fiji.
That’s a known known. HAARP is unknown which needs to be more known.
As Greg Palast Points out, Obama is bringing TEP to the US to build Obama nuclear power plants:
http://www.truth-out.org/tokyo-electric-build-us-nuclear-plants-the-no-bs-info-japans-disastrous-nuclear-operators68457
You don’t need a weather man to know which way the wind blows.
No cigs, Demi. Gave that up in the mid 70s. Wine? Yup.
Thought leads one to a single, inevitable conclusion as regards power production going forward: The greater the level of local density of energy in any given production method, the greater the environmental toll, the greater the expense, and ultimately the greater the risk. Inventory the destructiveness of our power sources you will see that this is true.
We had better, as a culture going forward (if there IS any going forward), seek to employ local, low density, low impact energy sources. Bad for corporations, so unlikely.
I did a spit-take on that one. UFB
Dose from a single full-body computed tomography (CT) scan 45 mSv.
http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/R/Radiation.html
What O has to say IS of very little consequence.
HAARP and earthquakes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcHPAR_5TEc&feature=player_embedded#at=24
Over at dKos, user FishOutOfWater has posted that diary with some graphs of particle trajectories (from Japan to US) generated by an interactive tool available here.
I can’t say that I understand it, but perhaps someone will find it useful.
Go Figure Dumbest USA president ever Obama, thinks TEP is great.
Me Thinks, TEP must be the worse Nuclear Power company on the planet.
Everything Obama does seems to blow up.
What are the high points of the OBAMA WH? anyone?
Obama is a very, very, very, un-lucky guy
I decided today that O’s and nuke ind plan is not to actually build plants (which no one in the WH or nuke ind will ever be around to see completed), but rather to raid tax- and rate-payers for as much as possible as quickly as possible. After all, getting the benies & not building is much more profitable than getting the benies & actually building.
BOJ pumps more liquidity, gov’t plays down stock fall after quake
TOKYO, March 15, Kyodo
The Bank of Japan on Tuesday continued to inject substantial funds into the economy in order to ease the impact of the devastating earthquake, while the government tried to play down the sharp falls in Tokyo stocks as a ”temporary” development.
Sound Familiar?
Alex Higgins is a raging loon, and well known to be one.
I’d not consider anything he quotes or prints to be of value.
A source I’d discount out of hand . . . there are better sources for info on the nuke sitch of the past four hours . . . .
Just sayin . . .
Bob Dylan on living underground, you got to sing along
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gYy5g1suhw
Give it UP already.
American Spirit here too:) Dark green. with mint leaves.
I wish they’d just close the market. My 401(k) is pretty much all in Asia.
from the latimes update: “In the U.S., the NRC said Monday it had received a formal request from Japan for assistance and was sending 10 people with expertise in boiling water reactors. Agency spokesman Scott Burnell said the experts knew that they might have to “undergo radiation doses larger than normal” to help bring the situation under control.”
NEWS ADVISORY: Radiation 33 times normal level measured in Utsunomiya, Tochigi (13:12)
Kyodo News Ticker
“Culture at large evolves as the amount of energy harnessed per capita per year increases or as the methods of harnessing energy are made more efficient or as both factors work together.”
Leslie White (Univ. of Michigan)
Nuclear energy is/was simply a logically illogical technological milepost on humankind’s ceaseless drive for “advancing” culture based upon a ‘pennies per kilowatt’ need for our ongoing energy fix.
“was sending 10 people”
Too precious for words.
Tochigi is the prefecture due south and inland from Fukushima.
We’re all coyotes now:
Kansas legislator suggests using hunters in helicopters to control illegal immigration
http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2011/mar/14/legislators-comment-illegal-immigration-criticized/
how far from Tokyo
what level of radiation is deadly? sorry I am a layman
Unit 1 is General Electric – 1971
Unit 2 is General Electric – 1974
Unit 3 is Toshiba – 1976
Unit 4 is Hitachi – 1978
Unit 5 is Toshiba – 1978
Unit 8 is General Electric – 1979
NEWS ADVISORY: Radiation amount in Chiba Pref. twice to 4 times normal level (13:14)
Kyodo News Ticker
reactor 4 isn’t active. It wasn’t running at the time of the earthquake, it had already been on shutdown and cooled down before the earthquake.
busy day, late to this thread — alot to digest here.
CNN has introduced their new commentator for the tragedies in Japan – Yoko Ono. I like her, but…..
About 140,000 people within a radius of 20 to 30 kilometers from the plant were ordered to stay indoors, Kyodo News reported, citing the prefectural government.
Shouldn’t they be leaving due the situation intensifying
Let’s not forget how Obama is doing regulatory reform, since regulations are job killers, so what nuclear plants are around will be regulated in what is most profitable for the nuclear industry.
Hey ET — civil defenses alerted yet along the Aleutians?
My grandfather and my uncle used the term, as did my mom on occasion, all from SoCal, with friends who died at Pearl Harbor, my uncle enlisting and ending up in several Pacific invasions. They clearly used the word as a term of hate. I learned early to hear it but not use it.
In California, where the internment camps were and the hate was very public, it’s a forbidden word. Just so ya’ know.
Amen. Am thinking of the long line of “experts,” mostly with industry ties, who made one assurance after another that there was “little to see here.” All should be blacklisted from media interviews.
I lift my glass to you all.
Thanks for keeping non top of this.
I lift my glass to all the workers at the nuke stations, mthsir families and all the folk that have been turned into refugees.
Currently, the winds aloft will carry anything from Honshu south of the Aleutians. The wind patterns change around the time of the equinox next week.
Over most of mainland Alaska, we’ve been experiencing extreme high pressure for almost two weeks, pushing arctic air from the interior toward the coast, which is good. But it won’t be until sometime next week that – should things keep going the way they are at these power plants – we will need to prepare here.
On the TV now, Craig Fugate is touting US preparedness for major earthquake. Another guest, from Columbia University, says we have a long way to go. From my own experience in the federal emergency preparedness community, we have a LONG way to go. Emergency exercises that “show” the government is prepared are farcical, hiding the fact that government plans are full of holes.
Yeah, the US has no shortage of old reactors exactly like the ones at Daiichi.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_boiling_water_reactors
And the crazy thing is… we plan to keep most of them running till the 2030′s.
Oh for…
Look, it’s HF RF transmission, 2.5MW, just a big-assed ham rig.
Sheesh.
Reactors like dominos — seems like the prevailing westerlies are all that’s standing between northern Japan and nuclear fallout.
You have professional experience in the field, don’t you DH?
Yup. Straight up looting.
I agree with arete aletheia. Staying indoors makes sense if there is a chance that the radiation can be contained. Individual whisps of radiation are dangerous to encounter if one is outside when it blows past.
But if even under the best case scenario just the radioactive iodine contaminates the environment, they will need to stay indoors for several weeks. If it is cesium or plutonium, wouldn’t that necessitate staying indoors for 100+ years to 30,000 or 40,000 years before radiation levels drop to safe levels?
We are SO not prepared for a major quake. LA and SoCal is not prepared in the least. We like to think we’ve rebuilt our buildings to “new” earthquake standards, but many recent studies have shown that in a large San Andres quake, or a moderate blind-thrust quake (like Wittier), many LA buildings are coming down.
Freeways have been demonstrated to be very vulnerable, as seen in most California quakes of any size. Water will be unreliable. Food supplies rely on the freeways. Power could be down for days. And so on.
When the Big One comes, and it will eventually come, it’s going to be hell in LA.
So I’ve read there are a few workers still in the lead suits, doing what they can.
I’d love to be wrong but I think whatever Nature has in store, a few dozen guys in lead suits won’t be able to stop.
But they might be able to slow it down, a few hours, maybe a day or two. They might be able to buy a little time: to get word to a few more people, to get a few more windows closed, to get a few more people out of the way of what’s coming from the worst areas to the somewhat-less-bad ones.
For those who have donned the suits, that time will come dearly bought. May the time they’ve bought be put to good use.
Coming here way late but HuffPo headline says NINE Japanese nuke plants are in trouble.
“Breaking: There are unconfirmed reports of yet another explosion at Unit 4, presumably associated with the fire.”
Unit #4 is shut down as you stated. The heat from those stored spent fuels is nowhere near the decay heat from the reactors which were operating. Don’t know the exact temps though.
Jim berkland predicts a major earthquake on the westcoast by the end of the month, precursors, major fish kills along the coast etc.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ygtVuAAtX4
Nikkei 225 down -9+%
DJIA Futures down -2.29% (275 points)
S&P Futures down -2.08%
Some actual radiation numbers:
Kyodo
From Reuters Twitter:
Japan atomic power says quake-hit Tokai Daini nuclear plant has safely cooled down
In themselves, none of these numbers are very worrisome. But they are the precursors.
My personal estimate of where we are now in the saga: the end of the beginning.
I would have to agree. The remaining plants seem to be stabilizing. Any hopes of stabilizing these four reactors seem to be gone. We wait and see.
Christ. I work for hitachi.
Yesterday the series of press releases issued by TEPCO seemed exceedingly carefully phrased but still designed to maintain transparency and calm the public.
Over the last several hours they appear to have given up completely on that, and are now just phoning it in.
The news just keeps getting worse. The IAEA was pretty sanguine, at least publicly, about this for a while. Reality has a nasty habit of refusing to be ignored.
From Reuters:
Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:23am EDT
VIENNA (Reuters) – Japan has told the U.N. nuclear watchdog a spent fuel storage pond was on fire at a reactor damaged by the earthquake and radioactivity was being released “directly” into the atmosphere, the Vienna-based agency said on Tuesday.
The International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), citing information it had received from Japanese authorities, said dose rates of up to 400 millisievert per hour have been reported at the Fukushima power plant site.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/15/us-japan-nuclear-iaea-idUSTRE72E1I820110315
More from the story above:
“The Japanese authorities are saying that there is a possibility that the fire was caused by a hydrogen explosion,” the IAEA said in a statement.
In Japan, authorities warned radiation levels had become “significantly” higher around the nuclear power plant on Tuesday after explosions at two reactors, and the French embassy said a low-level radioactive wind could reach Tokyo within hours.
I am concerned that the media is over-hyping the “nuclear disaster” scenario. This can not and will not be another Chernobyl or even a near-Chernobyl event. The radiation levels mentioned above are not problematic and the Japanese government seems to be handling things competently.
Other dangers associated with the earthquake and tsunami (aftershocks, disease, lack of power, clean water, sufficient medical treatment, mental trauma) are of far greater and more immediate concern than a partial meltdown in these reactors.
The media are generally petty and foolish and have their own priorities. But as they say, a stopped clock is right twice a day.
The numbers in the themselves, above, right now, are not a problem. But there’s already a cloud out there, somewhere, with way higher numbers, and it’s making its way south.
And there will be more clouds to follow. Act I is over. If you didn’t like Act I, you’re going to really hate II and III.
Re Wind – and the USA – short summary is that we are likely to get higher radiation readings – but no danger for the US:
Forward Trajectory Maps over the Pacific (Dr. Jeff Masters at http://www.wunderground.com/blog/JeffMasters/comment.html?entrynum=1763)
“… However, given the highly chaotic nature of the atmosphere’s winds, trajectories beyond about 3 days have huge uncertainties.One can get only a general idea of where a plume is headed beyond 3 days. I’ve been performing a number of runs of HYSPLIT over past few days, and so far great majority of these runs have taken plumes of radioactivity emitted from Japan’s east coast eastwards over the Pacific, with the plumes staying over water for at least 5 days. Some of the plumes move over eastern Siberia, Alaska, Canada, the U.S., and Mexico in 5 – 7 days. Such a long time spent over water will mean that the vast majority of the radioactive particles will settle out of the atmosphere or get caught up in precipitation and rained out. It is highly unlikely that any radiation capable of causing harm to people will be left in atmosphere after seven days and 2000+ miles of travel distance. Even the Chernobyl nuclear disaster, which had a far more serious release of radioactivity, was unable to spread significant contamination more than about 1000 miles.”
Thanks, papau.
What I didn’t like about Act I was the hysteria and it sounds like people are already gearing up for more in Acts II and III.
I’m not sure what way higher number’s you’re referring to? The levels I’ve seen reported from the radioactive cloud (measured in Tokyo and on the U.S.S. Ronald Reagan) are also in the microsievert per hour range.
I’ve only seen the information in one place, but this Japan Atomic Industrial Forum (JAIF) PDF report, which apparently summarizes facts that were given during the Tuesday, March 15th early evening (Japan time) television news broadcast, indicates that the Unit 4 fire at F. Daiichi actually burned itself out, by 11:00 a.m.
The fire apparently began (or was confirmed) at 9:38 a.m. Tuesday morning, after a definite explosion took place earlier (at 6:10 a.m. or 6:14 a.m., reports are conflicting) atop the Unit 4 reactor building – an explosion which apparently created two 8 meter by 8 meter holes in the walls of the building.
That Unit 4 explosion may have done more than create holes in the building though, based on the subsequently very high levels of radiation at the plant site, that are apparently coming primarily from one specific location, according to this recent reporting by Kyodo News:
That high 400 millisievert reading (measured at 10:22 a.m. Tuesday morning) was apparently still present Tuesday afternoon, near Unit 3, according to a 4:00 or 4:30 p.m. news conference (Japan time) held by Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano (while a measurement at the main entrance of the plant was much lower).
So some portion of the spent fuel rods (or other radioactive material) stored, outside any containment vessel, in Unit 4 may have been blown out of Unit 4 onto the ground, when the (presumed) hydrogen explosion occurred atop that reactor building early Tuesday.
A report from an observer at a university in Toyko, who’s tracking the local news, says that TEPCo is using fire engines to help pump water into Units 1-3, and that they dug a trench to store seawater to help in that process. They’re now running low on diesel fuel for the trucks and the portable generators they’re using to keep the pumps operating, and are having difficulty getting water up to the third floor of Unit 4 to replenish the spent fuel pool there.
I’ve heard no reporting on when off-site electrical service is expected to be restored to the plant site at F. Daiichi.
Another JAIF report – based on informed speculation in part – seems to indicate, and is the first precise reporting of this I’ve seen, that both the cylindrical steel reactor vessel actually holding the fuel/control rods, and the surrounding concrete “Primary Containment Vessel” (PCV) structure can be directly accessed by the fire pumps for the insertion of seawater. [NHK TV had a professor and graphic indicating, for a whole day after the seawater plan was announced, that seawater was being pumped into the concrete containment vessel structure, rather than directly into the reactor core itself.] As of 7 p.m., Japan time, Tuesday, 3/15, JAIF estimates that Unit 1 has had seawater inserted into both vessels (the reactor vessel core and the concrete containment vessel surrounding the steel reactor vessel), while Units 2 and 3 have had seawater injected only into their steel reactor vessels (with further injection into the surrounding PCVs still under consideration), as far as JAIF knows.
This latter information bears directly (and positively, as to larger radiation releases) on the impact of the questionable integrity of the concrete containment vessel (PCV) in Unit 2 – which may have cracked in some way at about 6:30 a.m. Tuesday, Japan time. Specifically, some access to the outside environment may have somehow been created in the lower “wet well” circular “torus” portion of that PCV, which is designed to suppress excess steam released from the reactor core, during an emergency, to keep pressure at manageable levels in the larger, “dry well” concrete containment vessel above it (which surrounds the smaller steel reactor core vessel). [I don't know how much interconnection exists between the PCV's torus pressure suppression chamber and the larger dry well above it, or whether the two can be manually segregated, if need be.]