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This cutaway diagram shows the central reactor vessel and thick concrete containment in a typical boiling water reactor of the same era as Fukushima Daiichi 1 (image: www.world-nuclear-news.org)
Japanese authorities now reporting that about 6:14 a.m. (Tokyo) Tuesday, March 15, there was an explosion at the Daiichi Unit 2 of the Fukushima Nuclear Station. This explosion was heard, not seen from the outside. The explosion reportedly did not blow off the roof/walls, as the explosions did at Units 1 and 3.
The explosion reportedly occurred near the containment area. Plant officials fear there may now be a crack in the reactor containment, which would allow more serious releases of radiation. A “pressure suppression pool,” the doughnut-shaped area at the bottom of the reactor vessel may have been damaged, which officials are describing as “serious.”
They are evacuating non-essential personnel in/around the plant after initial outside readings reached 965 micro-Sievers/hour. Radiation levels spiked to 8,217 micro-SV/hour, before dropping. That’s “more than eight times the 1,000 micro sievert level to which people are usually exposed in one year.” Winds are reported from the NNW.
At the time of the explosion, about one half of the reactor core — about 2.7 meters — had become uncovered. According to one analyst, at some point, the entire core was exposed. Pressure reached 3 atmospheres, but has fallen back to 1.
These pressure and radiation readings suggest the reactor pressure vessel holding the core may have been breached.
There is also an inoperable value that would otherwise allow pressure releases. That’s preventing or limiting the ability to inject cooling water.
An official is describing the event on this live tv feed, with English translation.
In a follow up news conference by TEPCO . . . utility officials said they’re continuing to inject sea water, with only a few essential personnel. They’re apologizing to the public. Reporters keep asking for details of the incident, and the officials keep apologizing!
Reporter: “we’re not asking for your feelings! Tell us the facts.”
Response: “The blast was heard; we checked parameters; pressure readings indicated some damage to the pressure pool. That caused the evacuation of the operators. Being carried out for the first time.”
“Water level was at minus 2700 mm [?} before and after; we're trying to decide what that means."
Q. What caused the damage to the suppression pool?
A. We have only confirmed the pressure went down. The Cabinet official assumed there was damage.
[Reporters obviously frustrated]
Q. Can anyone explain this? Have Unit 1 and 3 been evacuated?
A. Only those necessary are there.
Update from 11:00 a.m. (Tokyo) presser from Cabinet Official:
As of 6:00 a.m. Tuesday, all but 50 involved in water injections have been evacuated. Injections are occurring at Units 1, 2, and 3. There was a fire earlier at Unit 4, which was in cold shutdown when the quake occurred.)
Evacuations directed around 30 km radius. Everyone else urged to remain indoors.
Cabinet meetings continuing.
[note: these are paraphrases of Q and A]
Q. How are you sure the pressure vessel not been damaged?
A. Water injection has been maintained. And pressure has been stabilized; we have to continue those efforts.
Q. How serious is fire at Unit 4?
A. I mentioned it first because it occurred earlier.
Q. Is there damage to container vessel?
A. Report there is a high probability that it was.
Q. Radiation levels?
A. Very little possiblity of harm to public
Q. Status of fire at Unit 4?
A. Still working to extinguish the fire at Unit 4.
Q. Evacuation radius?
A. Out to 20 km = evacuate. Considering out to 30 km; but for now, just stay indoors.
Q. Radiation readings related to damage to Unit 2
A. Explosion at #4 reactor could have caused that [explosion?]
Q. What if fire continues?
A. We’re making every effort to put it out. The spent fire is not going to “catch fire” in general sense. Fire is in building area; but it’s best to extinguish to keep temps down and prevent release or radiation.
Q. Release possible.
A. Possible some could have been released. Ask TEPCO. But current high readings are from this fire, not from the Unit 2.
Q. What is your advice?
A. [Repeats evac and remain indoors] Minimal amounts may spread further, but further away the level if lower, so stay calm.
In another Onadaga plant, the levels will not cause damage to health.
A. For people between 20-30 km range, there are towns that overlap/inbeetween. He calls them out. [About 8 towns]
Q. Sec. Gen of IAEA says you asked for experts?
A. Not aware of any Japanese request t IAEA, but after quake, we’ve asked for support from various countries.
Q. Neutron radiation?
A. That was from Unit 3, because of its nature [fuel type]
Q. How long to extinguish Unit 4 fire, given you think it’s source of radiation?
A. Working on it.
Q. Continue to inject water?
A. Yes. Thank you for your questions.
407 Comments
Crap!
Dear Scarecrow, recall yesterday’s discussion re “South Texas Nuclear Generating Station” (aka “STP” ; comments begin here)? Well, looks like ubetchaiam (March 14th, 2011 at 12:48 pm) might have brought us the next puzzle piece: “Tokyo Electric to Build US Nuclear Plants” (by Greg Palast for Truthout/Buzzflash, Monday, March 14, 2011). I want to see a complete follow-the-money analysis as I cannot believe that KBR and Bechtel would step aside to allow Tokyo Electric do this business in south Texas.
I just live-blogged the press conference by TEPCO officials. they basically stonewalled the reporter questions. See the updated post. Very frustrating.
See, I was asking about this earlier – I am like Carnac!
Nice turban, mon. Magnificent.
That means that a whole lot of the fuel has been and still is exposed and you are truly fucked.
lobster, what is a “cold shutdown,” at reactor #4?
Bad, bad, bad news. If they are pulling back workers that is a serious problem. It is not like they have good control over 1 and 3.
This was inevitable. CNN has been saying this afternoon that fuel rods have been exposed and have remained exposed. Where, when, how, why … none of it matters, so the confusing and inaccurate reporting that they clearly cannot themselves understand or explain just does not matter.
Rods have been exposed, now more than once and for extended periods of time today.
This was inevitable. Exposed rods are heating up, not cooling.
It’s fucked.
Arguments that “all still could be okay” are bankrupt.
Radiation now reading as high 8,000 at Fukushima by TEPCO (Kyodo)
Cold shut down means that they have successfully shut the core down and it is cold.
That is: 8,217 micro-Sv per hour.
Try not to sound so triumphal when you are talking about a major disaster
Scarecrow: Pressure described as fallen to atmospheric in the presser. See my notes on end of previous thread.
If the force of the explosion breached the containment vessel, that might explain why it didn’t blow the walls off?
Also, it’s very clear that the people in charge have had very little actual direct information or readings (if any) from inside the reactors for some time now. Except for the amount of seawater they were pumping in and the pressure levels they were hopelessly trying to control.
They could say what they wanted based on wishes and fishes and “sell” it as long as things weren’t exploding, huh.
Bill is right. They mentioned it only because they found damage on the roof and because they’d rather talk about that than what is going on inside Unit 2.
Rats.
Bill ~ I am not triumphal. Please don’t take it out on me.
Scarecrow: My version of the LB is at the end of the previous thread. Looks like we got the same info out of it.
The “when” mattered. They had ten hours or less to get the fuel assembly covered up again. Time’s up.
reader: most of the people who are there are dying right now.
I continue to be astounded at the value of these threads. Thanks to all of you.
Recommended.
My guess:
Fuel had hours to melt b/c it was uncovered. Probably violated the integrity of the pressure vessel as it dripped down. When the pressure vessel finally broke, we heard it and the 3 atmosphere pressure inside dropped to atmospheric.
That is how it comes off. Just saying
Is there any way to control that now? They can keep pouring water on it but they don’t have the rods any more.
yes, saw that. Thanks.
Back to the TV:
8:35 reading dropped to 2,400 micro-Sv / hour.
Don’t know why the level is going up and down.
Unit 2 has had fuel rods uncovered and “only” 2.7 meters exposed. [me: still very bad]
TEPCO held news conference and said vapor emanating from top of Unit 3.
US Govt will assist Japan after receiving request. Etc.
The TEPCO officials were vague about which workers had been evacuated.
I know.
IMO, they need to be covering the corium with boronated water as best they can. But it is entirely unclear to me whether that will help in any significant way. Could be fruitless; we’ll probably never know.
God help the people doing it.
Japan Times:
Prior to the second full exposure of the rods around 11 p.m. Monday, radiation was detected at 9:37 p.m. at a level twice the maximum seen so far— 3,130 micro sievert per hour — near the main gate of the No. 1 plant, according to TEPCO.
Thanks, Bill and lobster. I need a nuclear plant dictionary or list of terms to keep up with you guys. It must be dire at #2 because they heard something and evacuated workers, very scary.
TV:
Roof blown off of the spent fuel pond?
Wind is blowing southward (toward Tokyo) at 10 mph.
[me: That is a very high reading to be near the gate.]
Of course it is. Bloody Hell!
Elliot Spitzer is on CNN decrying the dishonesty TEPCO officials usually conduct their “business” with.
This from Prison Planet:
Cover Up Of Fukushima Chain Reaction Underway
http://www.prisonplanet.com/chain-reaction-meltdown-all-the-nuclear-reactors-in-quake-hit-city-will-explode.html/?_login=9a5c341ae6
Sorta like trying to cover up the elephant in the room. What in the hell (literally) do they expect to get out of all this lying?
TV:
Smoke rising from Unit 3 right now.
[me: Keep in mind that last we heard, they have one water pump and three reactors that need to be filled with water. Bad interaction.]
Now they are saying pressure has been maintained.
lobster: I thought I also heard the number 965. Did you hear that? Make sense?
I’d take that article with a lot of salt, it has a lot of speculation.
Thanks.
NYT says “inner steel containment vessel damaged” at #2
As noted on the earlier bird flu thread by someone more clever than me, all indications are that God is a whale.
Okay, I know I jumped on reader, but what a day.
Sorry, reader.
I heard that, too. Then they moved on to talk about coolant systems failing, but when I heard that section repeat 10 minutes later, I decided that they were just talking about the general coolant system damage in the quake and tsunami and not specifically about the coolant on the spent fuel holding pond.
Well, if the containment is breached it is a safe bet that the situation is dire. The radiation is bouncing up and down and I have no clue why that would be.
Yes, they said 965, but then a subsequent report raised that value to 8,217 micro-Sv per hour.
If the release is “slow”, then a burst of wind that catches a drop of nasty stuff and lofts it then you get a high reading.
Bouncing around tells me that the leak is not steady/large at this time.
Question from above. I thought I heard the number 965 micro-SV, but I haven’t heard it in the replay. Did you hear that same number? Is it plausible, and for which moment in the sequence?
It is also said in the breakaway segment with the TV announcer that repeats now and then. She is also confirming the 8,217 number that is coming from TEPCO.
TV:
Valve is stuck closed and preventing more water from getting in.
I’m hearing the substance over reactor 3 refered to sometimes as “smoke” and sometimes as “mist”. Do they have no idea what it is?
now they(NYT) are backing off that and saying it’s some other room is damaged. Too many lies out there
Here is a nuclear reactor glossary but feel free to replace it if there is a better one (for laypeople):
http://www.nuclearglossary.com/suites/nuclearglossary_reactors.html
I don’t know what she is talking about, though, with respect to this roof thing.
Well, that is good news then, right? It means that the breach is small and might be contained?
The valve that is stuck is the valve that lets the air out (to reduce pressure) so that they can’t get the water to go in. Someone else’s image: can’t pour water into an inflated balloon.
Have a link? All I’m seeing from the NYT is “may have damaged”. A reasonable statement but not confirmation.
Just confusion over terms. The word “containment” gets applied to different things. We’re concerned about cracks/leaks in the reactor vessel holding the core. There is a containment structure surrounding much of the vessel. There is what their officials sometimes call a containment or pressure suppression pool beneath the vessel.
Well, it does seem true TEPCO is trying to control info.
Jones does have a tendency to hyperbole
this is where I’ve been going mostly:
Union of concerned Scientists
http://allthingsnuclear.org/tagged/Japan_nuclear
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/15/world/asia/15nuclear.html?hp The first story disappeared.
The readings are bouncing around at this point, depending on the time and location. The key number in this phase is the latest high value, because that tells you how much could be escaping. You could say that it “peaked” at that value and remain accurate.
Kyodo crawler: TEPCO admits meltdown is possibly occurring at Fukushima reactors (9:29)
[me: note the plural]
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/15/world/asia/15nuclear.html?_r=1&emc=na
I think there has been a rupture of the reactor pressure vessel because of the pressure drop and the high radiation readings.
There must also be some way out of the containment if the reading are high outside the unit (as reported).
Is that because of the seawater injection penetrations? Or a breach of the last containment? Unclear.
[Just noticed that 'nuclear' is an anagram of 'unclear']
When they fly through it they will know. That has probably already happened, but we have not been told yet.
TEPCO was saying the pressure was maintained. The govt guys were saying the pressure fell but the water level was maintained.
We do not know yet.
If they’ve only got one sea water injection capability for all three plants, it’s hard to imagine there wouldn’t be meltdowns occurring.
That’s what the NYT implied the first time then walked back the story
Is there a way to watch NHK live via the net?
JEEZUS
There is a link from TPM and a link from Calculated Risk.
From Kyodo News Network
TV again:
Fault with suppression pool exists. We do not know what happened. If there are cracks or ruptures, there will be leaks.
The fuel rods have 2.7 meters exposed.
In the area of the plant after the explosion, 965 micro-Sv / hour was detected, lowered later 882.7. [Scarecrow, there is your number again.]
[This is repeating...]
If you live in Washington, DC, NHK broadcasts over the air for free.
thanks!
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/nhk-world-tv
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/nhk-world-tv
From Nikkei.com :
(TEPCO stock in free fall):
Do they know if the rods are still there? as opposed to fully or partially melted already?
Overnight, TEPCo apparently got at least one of the steam release valves on the metal reactor vessel of Unit 2 unstuck. They’ve been adding seawater fairly steadily, I believe, since about 1-3 a.m., Japan time, Tuesday.
Adding seawater, that is, to – something – because, again, I’ve yet to see clarification as to where the “fire pump” is actually injecting the seawater: Directly into the metal reactor vessel, or only into the surrounding concrete containment structure (the “PVC”) which has a “suppression chamber” (donut structure) emergency cooling pool within it (but segregated???) and beneath the reactor vessel itself.
Commenter garbanzo on fuel rod thread states evacuation radius now 100 km.
Yahoo.com says:
Nikkei collapsing (go to the link for a graph).
It’s the spent fuel stored above the reactor core that poses way more potential damage than the fuel inside the reactor core. Anybody with knowledge want to address that? In your cutaway diagram it is the rectangular box in the upper left corner…http://www.dcbureau.org/201103141303/Natural-Resources-News-Service/fission-criticality-in-cooling-ponds-threaten-explosion-at-fukushima.html
Not reported yet on any of my screens, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t true.
I’d like to thank lobster and others for keeping us updated with the latest information on this disaster. Most of the information seems accurate and useful for the general public.
When this disaster passes i hope someone will do a diary on why we have this type of reactors. I also hope someone will educate the people who think newer failsafe reactors or fusion reactrors are the answer to our problems.
This situation certainly looks like the steel-alloy shell that contains the reactor core has been breached. Since this is the last line of defense to prevent the release of radioactivity, they likely have arrived at the “worst possible scenario.”
Earlier today on another thread, I asked about the possibility of tunneling under the reactor and inserting a large steel catchment basin under the reactor in time to collect the radioactive molten core as it drips out of the breached reactor core. Such a strategy would be extremely expensive, no doubt, but cost should be the least important concern at this point.
They certainly have to do everything possible to keep pressure down inside the reactor in order to prevent another explosion and further damage. unfortunately, that may not be possible at this point.
They also may have damage to the cooling pool above the reactor with associated increase in radioactivity.
With winds out of the north at 15 Kilometers/hour blowing straight toward Tokyo, the situation is grave.
Which brings me back to my catch-basin idea . . .
Didn’t sound like that at all to me.
It seems today like a lot of hosts are being extra shouting out at commenters. I’m not liking it. Just saying.
Wow. Doesn’t seem appropriate for it to even be open yet.
We have fretted over that from the beginning but have not yet come up with an answer on any FDL threads that I have been on.
On the last thread there is a link to a March 10 PowerPoint that describes the inventory of those pools. Many tons of waste as I recall.
‘Sounded’ sad, and bitter to me.
Peace everybody.
Tokyo was largely unscathed by the earthquake and tsunami, but yeah.
Ah, so that number was an outside reading? Hence, evacuate the area.
Scarecrow, you’re doing great work here. Maybe I am finally getting old and losing some of my vast curiosity about everything…I’m sorta feeling info overload – just tell me when to go duck and cover under my desk, and I’ll give up trying to actually understand.
to quote larue: le sigh.
I was so hoping 2011 would be better…
Things sure have changed around here. Maybe I’ll go look for a women’s site where the men don’t always come on and yell at the girls.
FWIW.
I just don’t think there is time for that, Masoninblue. We are working on a timescale of hours, not weeks. Think of all the infrastructure that was literally washed away.
An e-mail (no link) says the explosion at Unit 3 blew the roof off the spent fuel pools.
Who’s yelling?
the height of the “stack” is 3710mm, so if water level is minus 2700, then that checks out–only one meter of water and 2.7 meters of rod length exposed.
http://www.oecd-nea.org/sfcompo/Ver.2/Eng/Fukushima-Daini-2/index.html
I think the reason 2 didn’t blow the lid because when #3 went it blew a hole in the wall of 2. So the outer containment was breached (and vented) when 3 went.
Wow — TV up top! Well done, editors!
I tell ya, we could warn those traders that a cloud of death was approaching and they wouldn’t leave the trading floor. Not while the exchanges are open.
Given the disaster which has already occured, they should have shut down the exchange for the week.
nytimes reporting “early tuesday morning (in japan)” radiation is +3100 micro-sieverts at one reactor.
from the context, i take it that’s high.
x2
I didn’t mean in volume. I meant in tone. Nevermind. You either get it or you don’t. Point.
Someone should try to think through whether the “smoke” or “steam” or whatever could be coming from an uncovered and non-circulating spent fuel pool on the roof of Unit 3.
I.e., how long would it take for that to have heated up, starting at the time of the explosion?
If that is what is heating up, then it could account for all the radiation reports. It would force evacuation of the site. That is gamma radiation, by and large.
Kyodo:
Prime Minister will address Japanese nation at 11 AM.
One thing to keep in mind now is the site is so crapped up, the proper technical term for contaminated, that it may become impossible for people to remain at the site. And/or remain there very long. Or very long without getting more than allowable limits. Now limits can be waved and even 10 times a quarterly limit has a pretty low long term health risk profile but it’s complicated.
It is possible, I cannot address probabilities, that it could get so hot there the workers might essentially be committing suicide. The the question is, what workers? Workers from the area? What area.
If you get my drift I suspect the problem going forward is there will be no way to man any attempt at control and they will just have to be left to themselves.
The situation in Japan is unprecedented, as the CNN story from 7:32 pm EDT makes clear. I don’t believe there’s ever been more than one reactor with a malfunctioning cooling system seriously facing a possible meltdown at one time. Yesterday 2 were and now 3 are simultaneously.
The spent fuel in nearby storage pools also poses a great risk that isn’t receiving sufficient media attention
http://climateprogress.org/2011/03/14/third-explosion-reported-3-cooling-systems-failing-3-meltdowns-cant-be-ruled-out-spent-fuel-risk-also-great/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+climateprogress%2FlCrX+%28Climate+Progress%29
Hang in there. We’re all a little irradiated. Apologies. Everyone stay immersed in cool water, please.
Or Oboma either, who remains “firm in his commitment to nuclear”.
You wonder if these people have rocks for brains
I fear we may be writing a new chapter in “worst case scenario” here.
Well, I’ll just shut up then.
I’ve been getting that impression too. Dismissive of opinions “not theirs”.
The professor being interviewed Tuesday morning (Japan time) on NHK TV seemed to indicate that the pressure inside the larger concrete containment structure above the “suppression chamber/pool” was holding (above one Atmosphere), even as the pressure in the suppression chamber portion of that concrete containment structure had immediately fallen, post-6:14 a.m. blast, to 1 Atmosphere from 3 Atmospheres.
The extent of interconnection between the circular “suppression chamber” (which is apparently located within the concrete containment structure and underneath the metal reactor core cylinder), with the larger space above it in the concrete containment structure is sorely lacking in the Japanese coverage. Their reporting on the nuclear plant problems has been superficial and simplistic for days, and people in Japan must be utterly confused today given the lack of clear, detailed illustrations and explanations provided up to this point.
And again, I cannot find an explanation as to how the “fire pump” seawater insertion is actually being done. So the crucial question of whether that fire pump can continue to fill the cylindrical reactor core itself, even with a potentially-leaking concrete containment structure around it, goes unasked and unanswered so far.
Japan has asked the U.S. to send some sort of pump(s) from a U.S. Air Force base in Japan, to help with the pumping of seawater at the nuclear plant (I hadn’t realized that the entire plant had only 5 fire pumps – I thought that Unit 2 alone had 5, with only 1 working). That extra pumping power was due to arrive off-shore by noon Japan time today (within the next couple of hours), NHK reported.
Important F. Daiichi plant facts and figures from 7:30 p.m., local time, Monday evening are here:
http://www.nisa.meti.go.jp/english/files/en20110315-1.pdf
I get it.
Of course you do. :)
Well since it was linear, Newtonian physics that lead to this I’m sure they have the bigger brains better equipped to deal with the science
Weird timing, huh?
I think we can assume that many on-site workers have already sacrificed themselves to very painful deaths.
Hey, this ain’t the Jane Austen Knitting Society. Deal with it.
Scarecrow, lobster, Bill and every other contributor thank you. It does appear that there are frazzled nerves even here. That is understandable. If the reactor vessel is compromised it is worst case scenario shit.
Rachael just did a stellar segment with a guy (missed his name) from the Concerned Scientists. (Maybe jump out and set the tivo for later.)
Hartmann today said the workers were dead men walking by now.
At this point I just hope we don’t lose Japan altogether
I should have known this would be the go-to place to follow this and mayhap to understand it (somewhat). Thanks for your brilliance and for sharing it with me/us.
I am very grateful for all the information we are getting here. I don’t know anything about power plants but I certainly know more than I did. Thanks to all of you for the assistance. I’m really impressed with the knowledge at FDL.
He was on Friday too
Unfortunately, it seems more and more obvious that the Fukushima Nuclear Disaster is becoming a runaway nuclear reaction.
“Sharon Begley, the science columnist and science editor of Newsweek, has a good write-up of the call, “The Japan Nuke Problem No One’s Talking About,” which I’ll excerpt:
To the growing list of worries at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear-power plant … add this: could the spent nuclear fuel sitting in a nearby storage pool pose an even bigger threat to people and the environment? The spent fuel produced by reactors has been a challenge since the dawn of the nuclear industry, with most reactor operators opting to store it in pools of cooling water on site. At the 40-year-old Fukushima plant, which was built by General Electric, the fuel rods are stored at a pool about three stories up, next to the reactor (a schematic is here). Satellite photos raise concerns that the roof of the building housing the pool has been blown off, says Robert Alvarez, a senior scholar at the Institute for Policy Studies and a senior policy adviser to the secretary of energy and deputy assistant secretary for national security and the environment from 1993 to 1999. He and other experts are now warning that any release of radioactivity from the spent-fuel pool could make the releases from the reactors themselves pale in comparison.”
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2011-03-14/japan-nuclear-meltdown-fears-spent-fuel-could-pose-new-danger/
Are you the MN Barbara who has been missing?
per NHK (Japan’s national public broadcasting organization): Prime Min. Kan will have a “message” at 11:00pm EDT
And I’ve been hanging out here because I thought we were safe from that kind of thing. Unlike, say Space.com.
Rachael just did a stellar segment with a guy (missed his name) from the Concerned Scientists.
Yes, an excellent, elegant segment.
I would agree.
Yuppers.
Barbara!!!
Been missing you. Scared to hell about what’s going on. Hope you are well.
Apparently there is also a stand-alone building on site that has spent fuel “stored” as well. If any of the spent fuel goes critical, the reactor core fuel becomes irrelevant and isn’t even close to the damage potential of the spent fuel. Why do you think #1 and #3 oxy-hydrogen explosions looked different? What was the additional debris seen in #3? My premise is, you seem to be barking up the wrong tree. It’ like putting the gas tank of your car above the engine and worrying about the engine blowing up.
Maybe they’ll favor us with a “girl” topic like sewing or housekeeping science…
I am well. Scared, but well, but really, really scared.
So far it looks like it’s been a choice between severe radioactive contamination of the ocean off Japan or melting into the Earth’s crust but hey, now maybe we can have both! Because apparently dumping ocean water over them isn’t working.
gulp!
Bingo, as I pointed out above.
Know what the “best” aspect of this is? Obama just secured a loan for TEPCO and it’s partners to build two nuclear reactors on the Texas Gulf Coast.
woohoo….
You are assuming we’re all all male?
Meltdown is a misleadingly mild term. What is actually meant is that the nuclear fuel escapes the Zirconium rods, and pools at the bottom of the containment (another quaint term) in a mass of molten material now in free (uncontrolled) nuclear reaction at temperatures over 5,000 degrees F. The heat of the reaction instantly converts water to Hydrogen gas and oxygen…..with explosive results observed.
The oxidizing nuclear fuel is released to the atmosphere as vapor, still radio-active and containing elements of the fuel and radioactive break-down products of the reactions. Thus the spike in radiation.
The question is what type of radiation is it, and what are the component nuclear materials being dispersed in air and water? Some of these materials have a very long half-life.
Pressure is 1 atmosphere in reactor #2 per an interview on the NHK stream linked above.
Another colossal waste of taxpayer money to corporate special interests.
Change we can’t believe in….
Well, this is bad.
In some ways that makes it worse than Chernobyl because there the explosion scattered the fissile material, thus stopping the runaway reaction. So while Chernobyl scattered radioactive debris into the atmosphere, these have the potential for being melted, highly radioactive blobs, continuing to radiate heat for, well a loooooooong time.
There is a difference between a meltdown (from afterheat) and a runaway nuclear reaction. It is — roughly — the difference between what we are watching and what happened at Chernobyl. I still hold out hope that this will end up being less bad than Chernobyl, because the reactors *were* shut down successfully first. All of the problems we are witnessing are from the 6% afterheat. The timeline would have been much faster (at least) if there were self-sustaining chain reactions going on.
At 8:45 EST, I think that’s the time, the government announced 50 staff were at the site. In other words they have given up doing much of anything.
Several who were caught more or less directly exposed to the explosions, yes.
To those just generally on site, the reported levels (to the extent they are steady and credible) until now have not been radiation-sickness levels. They’ve been the sorts of levels that lead to non-negligible but also not absolutely huge increases in total lifetime cancer risk. I’m saying that hopefully.
Until now. If it’s really in the 3000+ uSv/hr at the gate, staying on site any longer in anything other than a lead suit is really not viable.
The guys on site have been absorbing the measured radiation risks, but more than that, for several days now they’ve been taking a risk of being right on top of it if/when it really blows.
The Prime Minister will speak at 11 AM Tokyo time, which is 10 PM EDT. I.e., in 17 minutes.
I haven’t mentioned any names, (or pseudonyms), lobster. Nor has anyone else.
Some brave souls, please go to the spent-fuel storage pools and remove the recoverable fuel rods. It will mean your lives, but it will save thousands, perhaps 10x thousands of lives. You will be remembered as heroes.
im frightened ,but captive….im sure the best brains are on it,BUT
nobody could have predicted….
I wish Punaise or ReddHedd or Jane or EW were here. Then it would feel like the good ol’ days — when Jane would bite the boys’ heads off and spit them out, laughing, and Punaise would spin out the puns faster than you can type.
I would add the description of the fuel as “spent” is a misnomer. It remains radioactive, just not at a level that makes their continued use in the reactor efficient. As someone else noted, it’s sometimes reprocessed to provide weapons grade material. Even when unreprocessed, it remains dangerous to humans and the environment.
As concerning as these three reactors are, the elephant in the living room remains the high volume of spent fuel (and stored supplies of fuel rods waiting to be used) and what the earthquake and tsunami may have done to the facilities designed to store it.
robots? r2d2….something
If we had to sacrifice one of the union, I’d vote for TX!
Heh.
“great risk”…….should be greater risk
oh well its a diaster,you have to make due
Actually, I read where they are more radioactive than the reactor.
Hey hey.
The “best” brains unfortunately are still employed by and beholden to the most greedy ones.
It seems likely that this address will mark an important turning point. T-12 minutes and counting.
Oh, no….You will miss me.;)
Melt, baby, melt
:) That’s the spirit!
Hope you are correct,
Arizona,Fla. can be released also
See this comment:
2011 at 5:23 pm «
Hey, this ain’t the Jane Austen Knitting Society. Deal with it.
The number of viewers on the NHK feed has doubled since yesterday.
I don’t think “given up” is the right term. Under the circumstances – exactly what is there for them to do? They have been trying to pump water, trying to balance the pumping of water with venting and managing steam pressures and water levels in three reactors – all with only one pump working and with gauges that are at best functionally unreliable and at worst – stuck or inoperable. The venting valves are apparently stuck shut on one of the reactors, there have been multiple explosions, there may be “hot” spent fuel rods everywhere for all we know. There may be dead bodies (from the explosions) lying around.
Just what is it they are supposed to be doing? But every report that comes indicates that the remaining workers are still trying – trying to continue to pump water, trying to cool these reactors, trying their best to keep more disastrous consequences from happening.
We should be sending all the positive energy their way that we can and praying that somehow in the face of this unmitigated catastrophe that they succeed in some small way.
I have missed you so much….Please don’t stay away so long. Aside from the present;), I hope you are well…..I think you had just moved when you left us….
LOL, you’ll have days to evacuate. I’ll put you up if it came to that (head west).
I’m afraid quite a few will be by now. Our thanks go out to them and those who replace them.
Prolly not the level of detail you’d like but, the NYT says they’re not pumping water in at pressure. They’re venting and then pumping water in at low pressure.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/15/world/asia/15nuclear.html?hp
And here I’ve been thinking you’re a newbie… Are you using a new handle or do I have the worst memory in the world? The latter is certainly a possibility.
In any case, thanks for the commentary. I think I’ve got your name down now ; )
mebbe we should all get some libations
By this point I’ve lost track of both the water levels and boron poisoning efforts in each of the reactors, so I could be wrong about this. But I don’t think we know that any mass has gone critical again. In fact, it takes a while after the cladding melts, before the UOX itself actually melts. In the meantime, if there’s no moderator, the individual pellets won’t go critical.
So it’s logically possible, as far as I know, that the pellets will pachinko down and spread out, each ultimately melting from decay heat, before going critical, in each of many different places. So again, I’m not sure it’s a given that all of them pool together, go critical, and melt together.
It’s certainly possible that will happen, and becomes more likely as the reactor is abandoned.
lobster,
your input has been beyond description in the inside baseball department. Thanks again.
It is becoming pretty clear that ractor #2 is in full-on runaway.
Hope NHK carries it with translation.
TEPCO acknowledging that a meltdown is “possible” but given their history, it makes me think that one is probably underway.
Jane ate me alive in 2005 for asking for more civility on the part of the host.
Another Government lying to the populace. Nothing shocks me anymore.
I wouldn’t be surprised to see some robots involved before all this is over. Japan is a leader in robotics. They can’t all be female androids…
Sipping a lovely dark rye German style ale from the local brew pub right now.
Sipping like in “containment”
Looking back it’s incredibly fast,
Think about the unlikable witness of these events the whorlwind’s setting down.
Just wow.
There’s rain in the forecast.
lobsters are better steamed imo
I’ve been relurked for a long time. Posted more in the 2005-2006 timeframe. The current company is great but punaise and Christy were the ones that drew me into the discussions.
can’t find it. (really not a fan of the nested replies. shit)
Hi. Bad stuff on our home planet tonight.
People predicted, but other people with vested interests pooh-pooh’d. People with contracts found ways to save a buck, and the nuclear critics were marginalized and ridiculed. And here we are. I’m going to my very old video-tape library and watch the “No-Nukes” concert one more time and get really, really stoned now.
Damn, so it is the worst memory in the world. Sorry ’bout that.
Please tell me that was tagless snark….
How fragile we all are, that something invisible, weightless, and so difficult to actually conceive can destroy us and pollute the lands and oceans and air, and create cancers in our children, and in their children.
This is getting worse by the hour. Remember when they said it was a bit worse than TMI?
I don’t see a successful outcome here. It appears that they are losing the battle to cool this stuff and they don’t have the equipment to do it.
While it may be creepy to be negative we need to know where this could go and prepare for it.
And Margaret. Can’t part with Margaret. Even (‘specially?) when she’s bein’ cantankerous!
I should take a moment for circumspection. Or, else!
Sounds perfect….See ya’
It’s up there. From bmaz of all people.
pilsner here. and it tastes like it might be a few more.
I have questions. Why are the reactors all together and when one goes bad does it effect the others?
i.e…. Not as profitable
Lipstick on a pig?
Occasionally, punaise comes around during LN or LLN. Wish he was here more often.
okay going for a faux Baileys….brb
Yep, this is very slow moving compared to what the Russians dealt with.
Might even be from only 1-2% afterheat. There’s supposed to be a big drop off in the first few hours of cooling.
Much obliged for the time frame. I turned up in the fall of 2006, but spent most of my time at The Next Hurrah back then.
Hi oldnslow. T’ain’t so good. No.
It’s more bang for the buck baby!
For want of a stitch….
The reactors and their containment buildings withstood a 9.1 earthquake.
The reactors and their containment buildings withstood the following tsunami.
The reactors went into automatic shut-down after the earthquake just as they were supposed to do. This was successful and is why they are not in full melt-down at this moment.
After the tsunami, the back-up generators tried to come on, as they were supposed to do.
Unfortunately, for lack of a few feet of sea wall, or for lack of a few feet of elevation above sea level, they had been swamped by the tsunami and were engulfed in sea water – rendering them inoperable.
The power plants themselves are and were not the problem here. The problem was and has been – from the start – the back-up electricity provisions – whether from generators or batteries or both. These plants had both.
But for lack of a few feet of seawall or a few feet of elevation above sea level…
And yes – this part of it is surely greed.
Regional bigotry is still bigotry. How would you feel if I wished you and your family a slow, horrible death from radiation poisoning? Fortunately, I’m a bit more evolved than to suggest it even in passing or joking in bad taste.
I think they are all in trouble because there is no electricity… and you can’t run or stop a reactor without electricity.
When you have no juice, they get overheated and failures cascade.
All the reactors will likely see the same fate where there is inadequate electricity.
how really stupid we are for thinkin we could master it.
Here we go…
This is a horrible thing for the Japanese people. I don’t think they deserved this fate.
At the top of the hour, you should not be reading this. Go up top and watch the TV feed.
“Hate” and “greed” meet most of those criteria.
Contender for best bumper sticker ever.
I love that picture…those serious looking Japanese give me hope. But one has to wonder what wonders we have wrought by creating all this lethal stuff.
Growler empty…but epic catastrophe calls for epic response…break out the wine!
It has become suicide mission stuff for any worker that stays. Without workers to pump water or …..
Or epitaph
This is what I was talking about on another thread. They’ve lost quite a few workers to the first two explosions. And now they may have 50 seriously contaminated by the last incident. They must be running out of people who know how to run the plants.
Unfortunately, there’s no “oops” in nuclear energy.
Number 1 plant == Fukushima Daiichi, not Unit 1
Number 2 plant == Fukushima Daini, not Unit 2 at Fukushima
It’s a question of infrastructure. Every “nuke” site usually has from two to six actual reactors. It’s easier to manage the original construction, and then it’s easier to manage fuel delivery, fuel storage, spent fuel storage, electricity delivery to the grid, you can take one reactor off line for maintenance and still have one or more on-line to meet your contractual obligations to your customers, and in the case of nukes – siting these things is and always has been an issue (NIMBY) so when you get one you want to make the most of it.
We go to the threads with the commenters we have…?
‘Cept that’s kind of a disservice to the commenters we do have…
Especially lobster, ProfFoland and all the other technically knowledgable and experienced folk who are combating blind panic with what facts and informed opinion.
That is very, very much appreciated!
Confusion about number 2 reactor vs number 2 power plant in first question
They are “stored” both above each reactor and in a stand-alone building from what i’ve been able to gather.
I’m wondering when the (paid) pro-nuke guys show up with good news like they did on the previous thread.
Jerkoffs.
One thing we humans can depend on: Our governments lie to us habitually and with aplomb.
This “incident” is a nightmare scenario of epic proportions.
Sorry, I’m anti-nuke. I’m also anti-war.
An anti-literacy anti-feminist. Given the topic, I’d say anti-human, too.
Oh I get it now.
Expansion of radius of evacuation around Daini reflects ??
spent fuel problem?
not yet cold shutdown for the last unit?
Wow. A totally empty message from a politician. I’m stunned.
TEPCO being forced to tell the really bad news. Appropriate.
Back in the days…
the problem now is there may not be a safe place to put the fuel rods.
“not yet cold shutdown for the last unit?”
whaaaa?
Unit 4 fire at Fukushima!! Was in cold shutdown.
Wow, this is a whole new chapter.
There were several reactors in the same condition as Reactor 4 at Daiichi.
This explains Daini and the expanded evacuation radius.
His body language told a lot. {Overgeneralization follows} Culturally, the Japanese are not the same with verbal expression as Americans are, but the their emotions show in their body language.
Hmmmm. How quickly we forget (or get distracted) our own corporate energy disaster, the complete devastation of a valuable ecosystem by British Petroleum aided by Haliburton. The Gulf of Mexico will take generations to recover–yet the complicit gov’t agency has already said “Mission Accomplished”
If the hidden hand of the market doesn’t fix this tomorrow then the rapist 1% have been exposed for their fucking greed.
Greed kills and these rapists are intent on killing us.
Yes they potentially way more dangerous.
Vonnegut, from Hocus Pocus:
Another flaw in the human character is that everybody wants to build and nobody wants to do maintenance.
Reactor four was damaged by Unit 3 explosion.
Hydrogen release associated with overheated cladding — i.e., fuel melting there, too.
The hole he is talking about at reactor 2 is a hole in the reactor building. Red herring, except that the releases from inside the building can escape through that hole (or holes)
How ironic can it be that modern Japan brings the world a nuke problem? They are very patient people, I guess.
Red herring in the sense of whether it is directly related to the noise (explosion).
As I suggested yesterday we will see them all cascade through failures and loss of control. They are fighting a losing battle.
We just need to hear what defeat looks like and means.
30 milli-Sv
100 milli-Sv
milli NOT micro — factor of one thousand larger than previous readings.
Very, very bad.
Twitter:
Note: 8,000 micro-Sv / hour == 8 milli-Sv / hour.
So now, they are observing another factor of 12 increase in levels from what we were talking about up-thread.
The complete asshole we elected in order to avoid a presumably greater asshole, is a fierce advocate for Nuclear Power (and Clean Coal with Mountaintop Removal).
11:15: Edano has not explained what is going on at Daini.
This is going to be as bad or worse than Chernobyl
The wind is blowing back across the country.
Rain and snow are the enemies. If you are reading this in Japan, stay out of the rain or snow.
margaret@5:37
the prez arranged for two japanese funded reactors in sunny calif, eh ?
don’t that obama have the WORST sort of luck?
like the obama initiative for more deep-water drilling in the gulf of oil just weeks before bp’s cheapness and safety-arrogance sunk the deep-water horizon and created other minor problems.
Many more lives affected, yes.
One would hope the nuclear business people and their technicians not sound so triumphal when they build one of these monstrosities on earthquake faults and tsunami plains.
The hubris and triumphalism needs to be muted with the planning, not with those who have been preaching caution.
And try not to breath
Maybe they are just being careful? Did I misunderstand the evacuation orders?
Sources are saying that the last explosion has breached containment.
I want a re-do at Appomattox Court House
Any nuke which lost power and was submerged under a tsunami will melt down. The less from 3/11
The population in the Tokyo metro area is 35,000,000.
the lesson from 3/11
Mission accomplished indeed—if you define “mission” as absolving yourself from responsibility as much as possible and maximizing your ability to continue to reap a profit with the complicity of our government.
So far, no questions about the spent fuel at units other than 4.
Hmph! Too bad he’s more affective at being a fierce advocate for nuclear power than he’s ever been for the LGBT community.
Ohhhhhh, shit.
Very not good.
Guess I’m starting a high-(iodized)salt diet…
Sv are a measure of exposure, yes? Thoug I suppose I ought to go look it up myself…
btw I have one cousin who was an engineer at Los Alamos for the Manhattan Project and one first cousin who spent the early part of his life as a nuclear power engineer. These are all nice kind people. But they are misbegotten in their idols.
lobster, you are being soooooo helpful with this stuff. I really can’t thank you enough for being so persistently factual!
Reading it is an art not much practiced in America.
Formal public apologies remain very much a necessary part of professional etiquette in Japan. Here, since J&J’s tylenol scare, executives and politicians have outsourced it to an apology industry that sends out minutely nuanced, insincerity.
Let’s not forget how this is going to hamper rescue efforts in the tsunami devastated areas.
The stuck valve–I interpreted as stuck in a closed state–meant that they either couldn’t release steam pressure to allow more cooling water–even if it’s seawater–or couldn’t inject more cooling seawater, or both.
I saw that earlier today and thought “that’s it then, it’s just a matter of when”. Since I didn’t suppose you could send a guy in there to swap out the valve…
How would one even begin to evacuate a country?
One also has to wonder about the search and rescue team en route and already in Japan, along with all the other responders. This is catastrophic on many levels.
PM: “Radiation levels very high.”
Definitely has the feeling of a situation out of control.
lobster @6:14
it thought “mu”, aka “micro”, meant millioneths
“milli”, i thought, was for thousandths.
The reactors survived the tsunami. It was the emergency generators which did not and the loss of those led to the loss of the reactors. All to save a few pennies by situating them at ground level instead of on concrete pads or steel towers.
3/11 changed everything.
The only shoe left to drop: major steam explosions that disperse all the nasties.
I don’t think it’s luck—someone is trying to send this dope a wake up call to stand up for what’s right—which he resolutely refuses to do because of his obsessive desire to appease moneyed corporate interests and overcautious approach.
Ratio of 1,000 and 1,000,000 is factor of 1,000.
Not California, Texas.
Yes to both.
milli is 10^-3
micro is 10^-6
This is so depressing and sad…
Sadly, yes. Rescuers will be restricted from aiding the trapped, injured and elderly due to the serious harm to their health from exposure.
This is truly bad, on a scale not yet realized.
At least that will slow or stop the reaction, like it did at Chernobyl.
The hubris if technology and industrial capitalism. I feel like crying. Millions and and millions of Japanese people are having their spirits crushed by this.
So 8,000 micro-whatevers == 8 milli-whatevers
and now they are reporting 100 milli-Sv
which is 12 x previous reports.
the hubris of technology…
we’re trashing our world…
“of course it’s better not to have a neutron…”
christ.
When does the protest start? Maybe he could put them in Chicago….
Coming late to the thread so plz excuse any repetitive remarks as I haven’t read all 250+ comments.
I’ve been wondering all along why, with multiple cores at the same site, there couldn’t be chain reactions. And why this wouldn’t be much worse than Chernobyl, with one core at the site.
Only if it is capped with 1000s of tons of concrete (wasn’t that Chernobyl?)
We did not learn the lesson then.
now reporting 400 milli-Sv if I understood correctly.
Another factor of 4.
Dangerous range.
The readings were 30 millisieverts 400 millisieverts and 100 millsieverts.
“Industry executives in touch with their counterparts in Japan Monday night grew increasingly alarmed about the risks posed by the No. 2 reactor.
“They’re basically in a full-scale panic” among Japanese power industry managers, said a senior nuclear industry executive. The executive is not involved in managing the response to the reactors’ difficulties but has many contacts in Japan. “They’re in total disarray, they don’t know what to do.” ”
‘Battle: Los Angeles’ movie release date is 03.11.11. The day of Japans earthquake.Many of the apocolyptic type images in the movie are similiar to the images we are seeing now coming out of Japan.
Coincidence?
Or, “have trashed….”
How long before US reporters leave Japan? Wednesday…
To support a chain reaction the material has to be very close together. The reactors are very far apart compared to that.
This IS going to worse than Chernobyl… make no mistake.
The optimism spin is not cutting it. Nature wins.
Mods: We are at 300 comments. New thread?
Or, irrelevant.
Going over the radiation effects now.
Release of radiation from one unit, which seems to have occurred, will greatly limit on-site actions for the other units. Radiation exposure levels will mean that people there will be assured of death. So response will be ultimate sacrifice.
Could hamper the construction of future nuke plants. Public Opinion will be affected. As much as Obama and his masters wish otherwise, This event is too big to keep under wraps and bullshit the world.
TEPCO and the American MSM began bullshitting immediately as expected. Not gonna work.
Not even Rush Limbaugh can spin this.
Not yet. The new containment structure for Chernobyl’s reactor number 4 won’t be finished until 2013. Since it can’t be safely built on site, it’s going to be the world’s largest movable structure.
Update from 11:00 a.m. (Tokyo) presser from Cabinet Official:
As of 6:00 a.m. Tuesday, all but 50 involved in water injections have been evacuated. Injections are occurring at Units 1, 2, and 3. There was a fire earlier at Unit 4, which was in cold shutdown when the quake occurred.)
Evacuations directed around 30 km radius. Everyone else urged to remain indoors.
Cabinet meetings continuing.
[note: these are paraphrases of Q and A]
Q. How are you sure the pressure vessel not been damaged?
A. Water injection has been maintained. And pressure has been stabilized; we have to continue those efforts.
Q. How serious is fire at Unit 4?
A. I mentioned it first because it occurred earlier.
Q. Is there damage to container vessel?
A. Report there is a high probability that it was.
Q. Radiation levels?
A. Very little possiblity of harm to public
Q. Status of fire at Unit 4?
A. Still working to extinguish the fire at Unit 4.
Q. Evacuation radius?
A. Out to 20 km = evacuate. Considering out to 30 km; but for now, just stay indoors.
Q. Radiation readings related to damage to Unit 2
A. Explosion at #4 reactor could have caused that [explosion?]
Q. What if fire continues?
A. We’re making every effort to put it out. The spent fire is not going to “catch fire” in general sense. Fire is in building area; but it’s best to extinguish to keep temps down and prevent release or radiation.
Q. Release possible.
A. Possible some could have been released. Ask TEPCO. But current high readings are from this fire, not from the Unit 2.
Q. What is your advice?
A. [Repeats evac and remain indoors] Minimal amounts may spread further, but further away the level if lower, so stay calm.
In another Onadaga plant, the levels will not cause damage to health.
A. For people between 20-30 km range, there are towns that overlap/inbeetween. He calls them out. [About 8 towns]
Q. Sec. Gen of IAEA says you asked for experts?
A. Not aware of any Japanese request t IAEA, but after quake, we’ve asked for support from various countries.
Q. Neutron radiation?
A. That was from Unit 3, because of its nature [fuel type]
Q. How long to extinguish Unit 4 fire, given you think it’s source of radiation?
A. Working on it.
Q. Continue to inject water?
A. Yes. Thank you for your questions.
did the feed cut out?
Just like in the China Syndrome they mentioned that an area the size of Pennsylvania could be contaminated by a meltdown. Then came TMI.
I don’t mean chain reaction in the tech nuke sense. Sorry for not making myself clear.
I meant chain reaction in the sense of an explosion at one core causing an explosion at another core nearby.
From Reuters
FLASH – French embassy in Tokyo says weak radioactive contamination could reach Tokyo in 10 hrs from stricken nuclear plant
Tokyo Forecast:
Currently winds from the NE @ 12 mph
30% chance rain today, 60% tonight, 50% tomorrow
I’ll go back and get the link if someone needs it, but one very useful chart I found a couple of days ago on the RASCAL computer modeling system for release of radioactivity had, for a BWR, a ballpark number of an increase in radioactivity of about 7 orders of magnitude above background for a complete meltdown with loss of containment.
For 100 miliSieverts per hour, we are now at 876,000 times background (assumed at 1 milliSievert per year), or just one order of magnitude below that number. Someone please tell me I goofed here.
At 100 mSv/hr radiation sickness sets in to unexposed people in only a couple of hours. Nobody can stay on site now except in full protection suits, of which there will be a limited number anyway.
Just out from the NYT
30km = 18.6 miles
LMAO! Now that’s some reach your getting there ghost. 8.9 thrust fault earthquake creates a tsunami that swamps emergency generators for at least two nuclear power plants on the same day that a movie is released. Coincidence? I. Think. Not…
Seriously…get some help.
Wow! Actual substantive discussion of dosages and specific effects: infertility, lymphopoenia, etc.
Actual explanations. Like they’re talking to intelligent adults.
Lies or whitewash aside, this is much better than anything I’ve heard come out of DC in YEARS!
The water table ?
Be ome earth on top of it.
Have you been keeping up with stories about HAARP?
Here is what they did not say very explicitly….
From this point on, onsite personnel will become very ill. Many will die. If they are forced to stop working or if they fail to keep control, we could get three or four large steam explosions, dispersing many tons of radioactive material high into the air.
I don’t even want to think about 400.
So, since many of us are cynics and rightfully so IMO and do not trust official reports from governmental agencies and the like, how will we be able to tell if everything has actually gone to shit and that there has been and/or continues to be a serious radiation leak?
Pay attention to who leaves Japan? I mean, if the Political leaders of Japan get on a plane? If I were a Japanese reporter I think I would be be tracking the Japanese moneyed elite to see what they were doing.
This is scary as hell. Are the prevailing winds still headed out over the pacific toward Canada? I have relatives in NE China – any chance a radiation cloud heads their direction?
im praying to the universe to spare these people,and their beautiful island home and their pets
They just (5 min ago) announced 400 mSv/hr and a 30km evacuation.
Are you keeping up with the HAARP experiments?
Yes, that too.
Strikes me that there are all kinds of dangers involved in having multiple cores at one location.
Sort of. It will also disperse all those long lived and highly radioactive elements over a wide area.
What future plants. this ain’t played out yet and you’re building more ??? W in T he F uture ?
Does GE have any liablility for the faulty design?
Sorta related to that… I didn’t think Daiichi was the only plant to lose all power. Yet all the fail is at Daiichi. What happened at the other sites that kept their reactors safe?
Perhaps TEPCO hasn’t told us the whole story yet.
They have doctors for what you’re experiencing. Please see one. There is no human power on this planet or off it that can shift Japan 8 feet to the west. It’s called “plate tectonics”. Get a grip.
SOURCE?
I know, I read that just as I was catching up after posting about 100.
lobster, we’re OK re comments numbers
(and thank you so much for being here.)
er, high enough to get into the jetstream?
And the other innocent animals too.
The question many have asked here is now more curious than ever.
Why are the spent fuels in unit 4 overheating but not in units 1-3 and 5-6?
And… there are six reactors on site. Three more like unit 4.
The Fukushima station was a 4.8 GWe nuclear power station, one of the larger in the world.
So, six reactors, and at least one has MOX fuel loaded. Maybe six meltdowns before it is done? Wow, I hope not. I hope unit 4 is having problems because of blast damage from unit 3.
“Pay attention to who leaves Japan? I mean, if the Political leaders of Japan get on a plane? If I were a Japanese reporter I think I would be be tracking the Japanese moneyed elite to see what they were doing.”
Ding.
But how will we know. The monied elite have prolly already left, as have large # of members of parliament.
Prevailing winds are currently to the south — toward the bulk of the Japanese population.
“As a doctor, as well as a mother and a world citizen, I wish to practice the ultimate form of preventive medicine by ridding the earth of these technologies that propagate disease, suffering, and death.”
— Helen Caldicott
Impossible to know. Depends on many unknowns.
No shortage of irony that the country the U.S. tried to destroy with nukes is now destroying itself with nukes.
Now there’s a rational question. Personally I can’t wait to find out which bigwig decided that putting emergency generators at ground level right next to the ocean, (and Japan trench) was an “acceptable risk”. There’s your conspiracy. Nothing exotic, nothing out of a badly written syfy channel movie, just people maximizing profit at the expense of safety.
NYT is wrong. Problem exists for at least 4 and as many as six reactors.
I can’t see why any reactor which was flooded and without power will not go through the same types of failures..
Why not?
There aren’t any comment #s, and with the crappy imbedded responses, no one can keep track of a thread this long.
NYT
Sort of like the folks who were tipped off not to fly on 9/10/2011.
Maybe this has been asked and answered and I missed it- but why do some of the plant reactors have MOX and others don’t?
http://climateprogress.org/2011/03/14/third-explosion-reported-3-cooling-systems-failing-3-meltdowns-cant-be-ruled-out-spent-fuel-risk-also-great/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+climateprogress%2FlCrX+%28Climate+Progress%29
Oh yes, that is definitely a major issue that will reverberate for years. All the reactors are clustered, all around the world.
So you’re letting the folks running HAARP off the hook already?
2001.
New thread!
You’ve all been EPU’d!
(sorry I couldn’t find RH or punaise, trying my best to carry on…)
A country that has experienced the horrors of nuclear power gone mad and invented the word “tsunami”, decided that it was an acceptable risk. Definitely not short of ironies.
The radiation from Cesium, one of the fission products of uranium is Beta radiation with very low penetration abilities. Thus the caution to remove clothes exposed and wash exposed skin, hair, and stay indoors. Beta radiation can be blocked by paper. However, if inhaled the danger is greatly expanded.
Cesium itself is toxic.
If not today, tomorrow and with a half life of even ( laughing ) 60 years we’ll all be exposed .
I do not have charts in front of me, but you are in the right ballpark, I think.
It seems that due to spent fuel rods, a cold shutdown did not prevent a problem at reactor #4, given that there was a fire. My heart goes out to the firefighters.
God that’s horrible. I can’t even imagine. They can’t catch a break. They have got to catch a break. Please Lord let them catch a break.
lobster…is what sites are you tracking this stuff on? Is there an unbiased scientific site out there giving regular updates and commentary? I would like to know worst case scenarios and such.
The nested comment format are okay for a slow moving thread, but not for one that moves like this one.
Let me say that groups like the old Clamshell Alliance against the Seabrook NH nuke, the Union of Concerned Scientists and many others have been saying this and trying to stop this nuclear madness for decades.
But decades of far-right GOP/ US Chamber of Commerce brainwashing has reduced the typical American’s intellect to that of the common fruit fly.
TEPCO: Unit 4 flames are coming from the fourth floor (where the cooling ponds we have been talking are).
NHK: Fukushima Daini: Everything appears to be fine there. [me: Good]
It’s called “plate tectonics” and it’s been going on for billions of years longer than humans have been around. You’re less lucid even than I thought if you actually believe that people can shift the island of Honshu 8 feet to the west.
Who sold them the plants?
Which I’d propose as a very good reason to put the next thread on this topic somewhere besides the “My FDL” framework!
yes,of course,butterflies,birds cranes….oy
with help from GE
Love this. I had to chuckle in spite of the seriousness of the thread.
Scarecrow has more
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“Uranium is the raw material of a power-elite who has taken Mother Earth’s every living creature hostage.”
— Petra Kelly
phred@6:23
highlights the only issue that matters from now on,
how to get as many people as possible as far away from those reactors as possible,
but in a country whose transportation, gasoline/diesel, electricity, and social/ political system are in shambles.
this would be like dunkirk, but with millions.
right now, japan and its people need a lucky break; i’m rooting for them to get it.
They have been having issues at Daini, and Yonagoya, and a three other sites as well. However, other than at Daini, the issue of the back-up generators was more easily solved. Daini #1, #2, and #3 were in the news quite a bit the first day as well for the same reasons, but they apparently were able to resolve their power problems.
Unfortunately, at Daiichi, that was not the case. At the other plant sites, the location of the back-up generators was not the huge issue it was at Daiichi.
That would be my guess, 3 blast damaged the 4 spent fuel enclosure.
For the sake of Japan and it’s people and for all the people of this dear Mother earth we call our home…can we try to put out the most healing and positive vibes we can…
The power of spirit can be very helpful…after all we are more than just skin and bones…
our sisters and brothers in Japan need us to send them all the love we can…
Sitting at our computers getting angry and bitchin at one another will never make things better…everyone deserves an equal voice…
Please!!
Doesn’t sound like nearly far enough. I would prefer to see 30 MILES, not km. But, possibly they are short of shelter due to the earthquake and tsunami.
amen
The text “The spent fire is not going to “catch fire” in general sense.”
Seems like gibberish.
Substituting one word changes that:
“The spent *fuel* is not going to “catch fire” in general sense.”
The “best brains” thought this nightmare up; add fossil fuel ( ancient sunlight) to the mix and WHAM there’s Armageddon and GAWD has nada to do with it.
I’m going to bed and hope I can sleep. I keep seeing Obama’s vapid face when I start to drift off.
Signing off…………..
Oh, I’m not panicked. I’m secure in my denial
Yeah, but the Japanese are trained to squash their emotions and follow their leaders.
From al Jazeera:
“Reuters says the insurance policies taken out on Japan’s nuclear facilities don’t cover damage caused by earthquakes or tsunami…”
An odd oversight. That means an expensive govt. bail-out; TEP is almost certainly TBTF.
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/asia/japan-crisis-live-blog
Risk assessment for the design earthquake was at 7.9 maximum. The fact that this one measured 9.0 was unthinkable – especially in the 1960s. We have seen earthquakes trending larger in the decades since but had not leading up to that time.
Size of tsunami wave design was for 4 feet short of what actually happened. This is a factor of the size, power and duration of the earthquake, so the two calculations kind of go hand in hand.
Siting next to water. Every nuke plant in the world is sited next to bodies of water or large rivers that feed into large bodies of water. For obvious reasons – cooling.
Japan is a small bunch of islands. There really is no place there that is not close to the ocean that is near a large river and a large body of water that is not close to the ocean. In this case, the proximity of the ocean is both the cause and may also save the situation (pouring thousands of available gallons of sea water into the reactors to cool them).
And as for bad design. Hindsight is always good. These reactors are old. Old designs are never as good or as safe as newer ones. We learn as we go along. We learn from previous accidents. We learned things from TMI. We learned things from Chernobyl.
I am not pro-nuke. But I personally think the spent fuel storage pools up in the air at the top of the buildings are the really stupid part of this whole affair IMHO.
Their government isn’t telling them anything and they’re totally shell shocked from the loss of their loved ones.
Quite enough to go on with, I’m sure
Wouldn’t quite say no one is talking about it… *g*
Well, at least US officials have reassured US that no fallout will reached the US even as prevailing winds are bringing whatever straight to Washington State.
Thank the gods for veracity in our government.
Now start handing out them pills!
Blessed be! I may BE a bitch, but I don’t feel like btiching tonight.
Remember all——”spooky action at a distance” – Einstein
agreed.
Sv is a sievert. A micro-sievert is equal to 0.1 milliRem.
Here is a comparison for you:
The background radiation dose is 2400 micro-Sv a year. So 8000 micro-Sv/hr is about 4 times the annual background radiation dose.
Also, if the wind is from the NNW, it is blowing to the SSE, which is toward Fiji.
STOP THIS SHIT. It is inappropriate on this thread.
Likely not an oversight. It is likely that they could not find someone to underwrite the risk.
Yes, when the pressure drops to one atmosphere that means there is a big enough hole to allow enough steam out to where it does not build pressure above sea level pressure. That or there is no water present.
Sounds plausible…I wonder how thick the exterior containment walls are. #3 sure went with some force.
The bigger problem is that we’re really lousy at estimating the risks and impacts associated with outlier events. So we do an insufficient job at planning and mitigation. This is true for Japan, for sub-prime mortgages, for Chernobyl, Valdez, LTCM, for Deepwater Horizon.
We need to figure out how to overcome this bias in our thinking because these black swan events seem to be increasing in both frequency and amplitude over the last several decades.
That 8 feet to the west thing was reported on NPR tonight. Shifts bigger than 8 feet happen during earthquakes along the San Andreas. Granted those plates are sliding past each other, not subduction as in Japan’s case.
Still, 8 feet of movement after a quake of this magnitude seems believable to me.
Like many have said on this site, these plants shouldn’t be built …ever. Fission isn’t controllable and fusion is a dream. There are better and safer alternatives available now. When will humans understand that we can despoil the earth but never control it? Make no mistake, our trajectory toward extinction has just increased in speed.
We built the NYC subway under New York.
Seismic and radioactivity are more serious here, but the project is doable, but as you say, extremely expensive.
The greater expenses are probably not doing it.
Your catch basin creates the possibility of capturing a lot of the waste and keeping it out of the water table and soil.