Update below, 9:48 a.m. JST: Commencement of Helicopter Water Drops
Update II: Obama Talks with Japanese Prime Minister
Why Are Senior US Officials Presuming to Lecture the Japanese on Courage?
I’m struggling to understand why Obama Administration officials appear to be trying to lecture the Japanese government and particularly its nuclear emergency workers on the seriousness of the situation at Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Generation Station. How is this helpful?
You would think that the US would be bending over backwards to provide whatever help the Japanese request or need but without presuming to suggest that we know better than they how to handle a situation that has gone well beyond previous events and experience and off the charts when one checks the “what should you do if” manual.
Yet there was Chairman Jaczko, head of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission telling Congress with certainty that all the cooling water in Unit 4′s spent fuel storage pool was gone and that given the extreme levels of radiation, evacuations should expand to about 50 miles. That was bad enough.
The Chairman did not explain how the US had superior or different information from the information the Japanese officials have been providing. One can draw an inference from the fact that the temperature levels reported for the storage pool, while elevated on Tuesday were not available on Wednesday. Did that mean there was no water to measure? We don’t know.
Far worse, however, was the anonymous statement given to ABC from an unnamed White House (or senior) official, presuming to tell the Japanese that they face a long and dire future:
“It would be hard to describe how alarming this is right now,” ABC quoted the anonymous official as saying. . . .
“They need to stop pulling out people — and step up with getting them back in the reactor to cool it. There is a recognition this is a suicide mission,” the unnamed U.S. official was quoted by ABC as saying.
First, there is no public policy reason why this unnamed US official should be left “unnamed.” What is ABC’s excuse? More important, what are these people thinking?
The Japanese have just suffered one of the worst triple catastrophes in their or anyone’s history. Thousands have been killed, more thousands may never be found. Whole towns and villages have been destroyed by the quakes or wiped away by the tsunami. And now they face a desperate situation at this nuclear facility with no assured solutions and all options involving huge dangers to workers. But they hardly need to be told this by some anonymous smuck sitting in Washington, especially one representing a US government that is failing to address the needs of America.
Nor do the Japanese need to be told by an unnamed American official to buck up and be more courageous. Dozens of workers dealing with the quakes, the tsunami and now the reactor crisis have risked their lives. The fifty or more people who have been working close to the failed reactors may already have been exposed to lethal doses. These people know what they’re facing and yet they’re still confronting the dangers and have been doing so for a week. The helicopter pilots now dropping water over Units 3 and 4, and the firemen working the hoses below, are also risking their lives, as are control room crews.
Earth to cowardly US official: STFU.
John Chandley
Update, 9:48 a.m. JST: Japanese just began a helicopter drop of water over the Unit 3 reactor. They used two CH-47 twin rotor “chinook” type helicopters, manned by Japanese Defense Forces. The drops required the helicopters slowly pass over the unit to increase the odds the spray hit the target. Video showed several separate drops, but one pass seemed to be too high and widely dispersed. Others were only slightly better. More drops are planned, but each crew will be limited to a total of 40 minutes exposure per day.
Officials said that the initial passes may have been too dispersed, but lower more targeted drops will be more dangerous. After this phase, about a dozen water trucks including a high-power water “cannon” truck will continue water spraying from the ground.
In the press conference during the drop, officials stressed the challenge of getting the water drops and spray from the truck hoses sufficiently targeted. It’s unclear how long before we know whether there has been any change in storage pool water levels or temperatures.
Other items: They’re continuing efforts to provide a transmission link to the grid, to allow a make shift pumping system that would use sea water for cooling.
Unit 5 is water level lowering and pressure rising. So they’ll have to rig another cooling system for Units 5 and 6.
Units 1 and 2, they’ve been able to provide sea water.
Update II. President Obama and Japanese Prime Minister Talk.
Japan’s Chief Cabinet Secretary Edano announced that President Obama called the Prime Minister today to express sympathy and to offer assistance for the nuclear crisis and for subsequent “rehabilitation.” The PM expressed gratitude.
Regarding the water in Unit 4, in light of NRC statement, the Minister says they have provided data to the US to allow analysis. Whether water has been depleted, there has been a lag in providing information. ??
Regarding the evacuation radius controversy, it’s understood the US would take a more conservative approach over a situation that it doesn’t control.
Live tv feed showing the water drops is here.




336 Comments

The time for the NRC and everyone else here to start hopping around like their hair was on fire was Saturday, Sunday at the latest.
I believe the talk now is ass covering.
Lecturing inept Asians provides nice cover if the end-game fails. “They should have listened to us, or called us earlier. We know about this stuff, and it never could have happened here.”
Standard cover statements. The insensitivity is appalling.
From the Al Jazeerah English live blog (5:45 a.m. entry):
“More from US NRC boss Gregory Jaczko, who earlier spoke in near-apocalyptic tones, has told Congress that he “strongly believes” the United States could “mitigate” the impact of a nuclear crisis similar to the one unfolding in Japan, if it had occured in the US.”
As cynical as it is, I think that provides your answer. If the US hopes to save their nuclear program, they need to make Japan out to be incompetent.
It is despicable, but then there is a lot of that going around Washington, D.C. these days.
“Earth to cowardly US official: STFU.”
AGREE!
NO NEED TO BE A LITTLE SHIT ABOUT IT!
Assholes. I’m fucking ashamed of these idiots.
TV: Power supply will be restarted this afternoon. (me: Really good news)
I’m ashamed of my country.
I don’t mind the difference over the evacuation zone. That is a standard kind of international difference.
It is the chicken-shit anonymous statement that makes me mad.
Strong westerly wind flows is very very good news.
Contamination on the ground stays on the ground. The ground is two dimensional, fixed and of course people live there. The ocean is thousands of feet deep and is in constant motion so the dilution of the contamination is almost infinitely greater.
Just as an aside, after our own government led bungle-fest sponsored by BP, I do not share Jaczko’s optimism.
So I’ll be clearer: I’m pissed off at this unnamed official AND at ABC. The country, well… that remains to be seen. There is a lot of response still to come. I typed too soon, I think.
Yes, an unnamed source sits in DC and talks about pushing the workers back into the site as they cook from the inside out.
Gutless.
Ding ding ding!
lobster — have you (or anyone) seen anything that confirms they have a working connection point? The switchyard must have been damaged by the tsunami, and the switching equipment for the backup generators was in the lower building with those generators, I thought.
I have felt that way for a long time. I took down my American flag a couple of years ago when Shrub was still President. I put it up for awhile again in early 2010. It is down now.
Small meaningless gesture from one terribly disaffected citizen.
So, the verdict is the airdrops were mostly ineffective? With power coming back to the plant, hopefully soon (per Tokyo Power), how much hope is there that a makeshift pumping/distribution and monitoring system to be set up? Under those conditions? With the personnel on site?
I gotta say, That U.S. official was right to go unnamed. The people there are heroes, whatever happens. That guy needs to put a sock in it.
On a more pessimistic note, Hawaii is getting more radiation sensors. I there anybody looking at weather patterns over the Pacific to get some idea what will happen in the worst case?
Lobster, I haven’t seen anything that gives me hope.
Unfortunately, “ashamed of my country” seems to be the new default. Thank you for all your informative posts, lobster. I haven’t been commenting, but have been reading what you and the other FDLers have to say. Scary, scary stuff.
We said unnamed official please volunteer to go and work on the reactors, and lend his considerable expertise to the effort?
That is, lead by example?
Can you imagine haranguing the Japanese to send more people to their deaths than they’re already sending, and criticizing the decision to mitigate the slaughter? I can’t.
Should be “Well said ”
Wow, this water dump effort looks like it has no chance to succeed. I estimate maybe 10% of the water in each drop hits the building and maybe 10% of that hits the pool. If, indeed, any water hits the pool, it probably flashes immediately into steam. Not good. Not at all.
I posted something a few threads back about an on-line tool for doing analysis of particulate spreading across the Pacific. Over my head, but someone could try playing with it.
Aren’t you tempted sometimes to fly it upside down in the distress signal form?
It’s not helpful to the Nihonjin. It’s designed to show Americans that the administration in this country takes nuclear safety very seriously®. They’ll never let that happen here because they are very serious® about safety.
It’s second nature for sociopaths.
After Bush’s marvelous handling of Katrina and Obama’s adept response to the Gulf oil spill, not to mention our wisdom in foreign affairs and our stellar human rights record, why shouldn’t other nations obediently listen to our omniscient officials’ pontifications?
One of the regular briefing officials just said that the power would be restored today, this afternoon. He did say that the power would not be immediately useful, but because the pumps hooked to the power supplies are not compatible with sea water. So they have to hook up new pumps to the new power supplies; this was supposed to be available for action today.
I’m assuming that with whatever generators they were shipped they will have portable distrubution trunks and lots and lots of wire. New connection points will have to be grafted in since the tsunami no doubt damaged all the breakers and substations in the plant.
The units where there were explosions, 1, 2 and 3? probably have had their electrical systems mostly destroyed. There are going to be short circuited high voltage lines which may preclude using the main busses. Power returning is good don’t get me wrong.
What I’ve been seeing from the Japanese government has shocked me. As far as I can tell, the government has been totally transparent. There are radiation monitors giving real-time levels on the internet all around the country. There are live feeds to watch what is happening. Their explanations actually make physical sense.
The difference between this and the BP fiasco, with the Coast Guard running interference for yacht boy, could not be greater.
Yeah I am. But it only fits on the pole one way, unfortunately.
TEPCO is just another f*#ked up company, of course. No surprises at all from that direction.
Multinationals are lowest-common-denominator operations.
Restoring power won’t be a panacea, but it’s one step in a long process. Now they can have coffee!
Wow, the Obama administration is filled with corporate cocksucking assholes from the top down, isn’t it?
LMAO!
x2
I assume that must have been what some of those 800 people were doing before they were evacuated from the site.
“Why Is Unnamed US Official Lecturing Japan?”
Because he can.
Because of U.S. exceptionalism.
Because USG will mow over everyone & everything to support its own nuke industry, which, if you didn’t know it a week ago, you know it now, is one of the many dysfunctional U.S. industries that owns the USG.
They’d better get it from off site. WAAAAAAY off site….
As far as I can tell, yes.
11 water cannon trucks en route.
lobster, your shame is well founded.
Comment from someone who has been tracking HAARP.
http://www.atlanteanconspiracy.com/2011/03/japan-tsunami-caused-by-haarp.html
I think the helicopters were just a handy way to test the response of the site to large quantities of water. They were probably looking for radiation spikes or explosions or whatever.
Now they will bring in the water cannons, which will bring humans closer, with less opportunity to escape, but they will be able to aim and deliver more water more effectively.
I’m just guessing, though.
Camera is 33 km from the plant.
In addition to the audacity of the U. S. lecturing the Japanese and presuming to know better than they do, does anyone with any authority have the ability to tell these schmucks that the Japanese people are very proud. These are people who literally fall on their swords to atone for their mistakes.
Why are we lecturing, and what the hell do we think gives us the moral authority to do so, given our own feet of clay?
You can put grommets on the other side of the flag easily to fly it upside down.
I flew teh U.N. flag during the W admin.
Got an 1817 (year house was built; 20 stars) U.S. flag after O became prez, but it turns out to be too windy for the flagpole on a lot of days (climate change), so it often fell down & I’ve had it down all winter.
but….but we are exceptional!
Ghost, please give this HAARP stuff a rest. It’s crap, and has been debunked, and it is rude of you to keep dragging it into threads about the Japan crisis.
Please just go away.
And YOUR shame knows no bounds.
The only conspiracy here is between your ears.
Um…not for a very long time…
I’d be very surprised if that turned out to be anything other than kabuki. JG has been a monopoly for entire post-WWII period & I suspect corruption is too deep for most to see.
If this were happening here, would anyone in their right mind believe anything coming out of the WH?
I was working on this at the beginning of the accident, but I found the problem to be too hard. (This calculation isn’t too far from what I do professionally.)
I concluded that in the worst case — which is still unlikely, though getting more likely all the time — there would be radiation detected all over the US, but that the readings would be very erratic. 5,000-7,500 miles is a very long way to go, and not much would make the trip. However, there are possibilities for little pockets of more.
I know the questions: How much more? How many such “clumps”?
I do not know the answer. I do not have the ability to calculate the answer, or to guess. (My guess would be only good on average, and it would be that on average we will not have to worry. It is the people of Japan who will be worrying about this for a long time.)
Watching that water drop was just depressing and sad.
According to wikipedia, a Chinook can carry about 26000 lbs. That’s about 3000 gallons. If all of it were to hit a reactor core it would provide about one minute’s worth of cooling.
Of course some Exceptional Unitary underling sees no problem sending little people to their death to increase the bottom line, right don blankenfeld ?
We’re talking energy GIANTS making these life and death decisions for us all.
The Gen sets are probably not in the reactor building. The steam will probably be piped to a generator room, separate from the reactors.
They can’t change the laws of physics.
I do not doubt that blame and who-did-what-when are opaque. I’m just talking about the reporting of the situation on the ground. There is a lot of it.
Instead of rounding up reporters, they are feeding the world what the world needs to know: what the hell is going on.
Someone prepared a response to you and msmolly.
Maybe a half a dozen Daily Kos readers but not many others.
I think the roof still remains on unit 4, so dropping water won’t work on it. Hence the water cannons.
TV: Back to live right now
Has anyone remarked on this thread yet about how much she hates embedded responses and how unhelpful they are at following the information.
That payload was reduced by lead shielding. My previous calculation of 1800 gallons was for tons, but it is certainly tonnes (stupid metric system) so about 2000 gallons per drop. Only a fraction of that hits the target.
My mistake, an hour’s worth if all of it hits a reactor core. A minute is what you get given a very optimistic estimate of the fraction that actually makes it somewhere useful.
Really mods…Isn’t there a rule about peddling this kind of off topic, paranoid tripe over and over throughout the day? If not, I vote that there should be.
False alarm…they are going back to recorded news.
But the presser is about to begin.
Reminds me of Ben Franklin: A minute saved is a minute earned. /s
There IS one conspiracy I think legitimately applies
Oooo! Does that mean I get to pimp my plugin again?
I didn’t see your calculation, my apologies! Where is it?
I’ve been waiting for the earthquake truthers to form.
the MSNBC Nuclear Expert told Cenk some very dire stuff
“Cenk ask the Nuclear Expert if you were in Tokyo what would U do?
the Nuclear Expert said I would not be in Tokyo.”
He tried to walk this back, but could not.
Last thread. They stated they were hauling 7.5 tonnes, I heard it as tons. Also, there is the weight of the bucket to consider, but probably mostly the lead plate.
LOL. In the early daze of computerized macroeconomic models, decimal point errors were the big plague. Wasn’t even as rockety sciency as stoopid U.S. irrational measurement sys vs. much more rational metric system.
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?
phred at 5:33: “If the US hopes to save their nuclear program, they need to make Japan out to be incompetent.”
Ding, ding, ding.
The operation is meant to get water into the fuel pools which are open. Dropping water isn’t going to get any into the reactors.
Go look at the famous rendering of these units that headed all these thread. The pools are like a swimming pool on the top floor.
If you plugin is a link, doesn’t work for me.
More recent photos show a substantial part of the Unit 4 roof destroyed, but you can’t tell whether that provides direct access to the storage pools. If the roof just collapsed, it may make it harder.
A 9.0 earthquake releases approximately 474 megatons worth of energy. Therefore, HARRP would have had to put that much energy, or greater into the system to get such a result. Unless you’re arguing that the Law of the Conservation of Energy is bullshit, your argument is worse than specious. I call bullshit for infinity.
Uh oh, I may have spoken too soon. From Kyodo, TEPCO says:
——————–
TEPCO has no credibility (except with O)
That’s obviously the plan.
And in this case, it’s true that Japan is incompetent.
Of course, that doesn’t mean the U.S. isn’t too.
All statements out of the WH have to be evaluated in this context.
OK, it has been pretty clearly indicated here by a number of commenters that most of us do not buy this crap (there was an earlier post debunking it in technical terms).
YOU think it is reliable. That’s your right. But do you think reposting it over and over is going to win over the others here who do not think it is reliable? I, for one, have as much interest in it as I do in arguments for Christianity or the tooth fairy.
Please just stop. STOP. And please don’t start that “Peace” crap, either.
I know this, but I don’t have any good numbers for the heat load of the fuel ponds. So I did the only calculation I could :)
OK, trying again.
diary describing plugin
Sorry, in the context that Japan is incompetent.
Kind of like hopping around on one leg in a minefield in an effort to find landmines?
Kyodo says water level in Unit 5 cooling pond is dropping.
(Not really new news, but most other reports have focused on the temperature.)
Let’s put it this way – I’m very frustrated with someone shooting his mouth off about how the people who are shouldering this (perhaps ineffectively, perhaps not the most successfully), and who…will…die, are somehow not trying hard enough? The firefighters and technicians at Chernobyl were all dead within two months from radiation. Hello? Does this asshole think that the technicians and workers at this place trying to save their countrymen (and frankly a lot of other people who could possibly be in the path of this) don’t KNOW what is going to happen to them? Whoever this guy is – he’s an idiot.
My perpetual comment on all these threads.
The only thing we know for sure is that whatever the JG, USG, Tepco are saying are lies.
All else is up for grabs.
They have apparently.
It’s the Japanese who are inept here. For days they have been giving conflicting stories of what is happening, to the point that the press has pleaded with them to stop their incessant apologizing and give concrete information. I mean come on, it’s like the keystone cops here – they don’t even know how a supposedly safe stash of spent fuel rods could possibly catch on fire, if it’s still on fire, and what the radiation levels are.
I won’t stand here saying that I can pssoibly know what stress they are going through, but if this was happening in the US, everyone on this board would be ripping these same officials a new one.
Well, I haven’t on THIS thread. So I will.
I HATE THE NESTED COMMENTS. I HATE THAT WE DON’T HAVE THE SAME FORMAT AND TOOLS AS THE OTHER SITES.
/yelling
The statements of the US official do not seem so outrageous to me.
Of all that has occurred in this unfolding catastrophe, it seems that this is an unusual aspect to get bent out of shape over.
Put that excellent comment into 140 characters and I will tweet it. And credit you.
One possible way they may guess about the water level of the spent fule pool at unit #4 is they may use a satellite to measure heat in the SFP and calculate what the water level might be.
How close can a water cannon get to these nuclear plants?
when helicopter have drop water from 60 feet
forget the corrupt USA, all around the world real govts. are putting the brakes on nuclear. Germany, China, etc.
the USA wanted to lead the world toward a nuclear future.
as Obama said Winning the Future or as we say on FDL WTF
for USA big business to continue to ship jobs out of the USA and kill the USA middle class, they need a Nuclear China?
thus Obama love affair with Nuclear Death.
The few major corporations with nuclear power interests have far far bigger problems than any business that may come years in the future. I suppose knee jerk self interest and general party line boilerplate might power some rhetoric from the usual flacks but that is all a sideshow.
This disaster in Japan has wide ranging impact upon the general financial and economic picture globally.
I had a very bad feeling that this would get worse and worse with each passing day. It is. We need to hear about the how to live beyond this disaster – what will Japan be like?
I even heard Anne Thompson say early on that this wasn’t a “design flaw.”
Why does this seem like BP’s “top hat”, “top kill” and “junk shot”?
Link worked this time, but your description/instructions are waay above my computer pay grade. Thanks for trying, though.
The Yen is at record *highs*. That’s backwards, right?
…
Kyodo says Japanese government says “extreme speculation” is underway.
Hey, economists — what is this all about?
” “They need to stop pulling out people — and step up with getting them back in the reactor to cool it. There is a recognition this is a suicide mission,” the unnamed U.S. official was quoted by ABC as saying.”
At the risk of being way too cynical, maybe it was Obama et al. Perhaps he’s starting to recognize that the worse this gets in Japan, the harder sell he has for forcing nuclear loan guarantees – paid for by you and me.
Does anybody in their right mind believe anything coming out of the White House now?
I saw your description. If I understand it correctly, it doesn’t un-nest the comments. Bravo to you for trying. But the other “partner” sites have the same un-nested comments and the same editing and formatting tools, and we, here in MyFDL outback, have neither. WHY NOT?
I am getting grumpier by the minute. Think I will go to bed with a book.
Flagged – enough.
~~~ModNote: The most effective way to deal with irritating comments, is to ignore them.~~~
There should be a way to view or highlight new comments.
I call bullshit.
Did you even go to college?
G11, Shame and guilt are not emotions to be attributed. Speak for and judge yourself. No one has selected you to be the judge of shame or any other personal traits…IMHO. Something about the log in one’s own eye, IIRC.
What statements are you referring to?
Oh, I forgot to include:
the health of the workers be damned.
Unnamed government official is talking BS.
The best news is that there is a very strong westerly wind flow which will drive the contamination offshore away from land and of course Tokyo.
Any official of any corporation or of our government that is leaving Tokyo is a pussy.
Okay, but this guy is irrational and ignorant. He needs to know that we know that.
“what will Japan be like”
A sheet of glass.
dollars/yen
sorry, yen/dollar
Bingo
Their PM has expressed his frustration with his inability to get timely reports from TEPCO more than once. He did all but order them to leave staff at the plant before the big pull out, and they ignored him.
The government may well be doing all it can think of to do but I’m personally not sure that can be said of TEPCO. Kan probably needs to take over the management and planning for this disaster, and manage it with as much international help as he needs.
I lived in a place for many years where more than half my neighbors, friends and co-workers were Japanese-Americans and their pride, work ethic and self-sufficiency earned my respect and honor. But Kan, much less TEPCO, doesn’t have to do this alone. The Japanese have many friends around the Pacific pond and we really are all in this together.
Canaries in the coal mine?
I agree with scarecrow, when you see the photos of this nuclear plant, there is a lot of destruction, nothing seems to be intact.
Don’t believe the rhetoric. Obama never wanted a nuclear future. He just likes to pretend he listens to everyone.
LOL. (gallows humor)
As if you didn’t know.
Hint: Shift blame to fin mkts. (Not that they don’t deserve it, but they surely didn’t originate it in this particular case.
We have no right to criticize these brave workers.
I don’t believe a shred of that, but I can still attempt to try to hope this is actually happening.
If that was to me, go ahead and edit it. I don’t tweet. If not to me, oh nevermind…*g*
Just an opinion – “Turn the other cheek” is a better religious philosophy than a blog comment policy.
It is beyond logic for sure and certainly has to do with the positions of speculators. One can make a complex case about Japanese corporations needing Yen as short term domestic money flows are freezing up but you just go nuts looking for fundamentals in such things.
Longer term the Yen is likely to fall and fall some more with dire inflationary effects for Japanese citizens.
No. SASQ.
Yen is strengthening against other currencies. In order to pay insurance claims, insurers and reinsurers will sell securities in other currencies, then buy yen to pay claims. Apparently the BoJ conjuring trillions of yen per day out of thin air isn’t enough to counteract that.
The talking points have been distributed.
Bs on what part?
“Well I’m not dying early! I’ve got years to live in the Caribbean doing nothing ahead of me….”
We need a standard troll response that registers our contempt and yet doesn’t engage or encourage them to continue. I think it would be more disheartening to get several responses of that than even being ignored. But I’m not a troll, so I could be wrong on that. However, if they get paid by the response, ignoring IS the better policy, as hard as it is.
Perhaps the JG should get all the survivors of Hiroshima & Nagasaki to work on these atomic disasters. They have shown a clear genetic superiority in dealing with nuke disasters.
Does anyone know of a map with radiation readings in the US. It would be interesting to see. I remember a History Channel program that said Japan released small balloons with explosive during WWII. The jet stream carried them to the US, so I guess some radiation is making it to the US also.
Just In
TEPCO is asking older men to work at nuclear plants
the idea is that they will die of old age
I think they just said at 300 meters altitude it was 87 milliSeverts. Can anyone confirm?
Well put.
They should simply apply the same WordPress template to MyFDL as they do to all of the other FDL sites. Why go to the trouble of creating a way to view or highlight new comments. We would still have to scroll back through a sometimes LONG thread to see what’s new. Why not just give MyFDL the same layout and tools as the other sites? Then nobody has to do anything special.
My opinion is based on my understanding the laws of physics, something that apparently waved bye-bye to anybody who believes this HAARP causes earthquakes bullshit long, long ago.
Ok, I can ignore the govt statement.
However, they have dumped trillions of yen into the market. Why is the yen getting stronger? Is this obvious? I don’t get it.
**ahem** my previously pimped plugin also has a blacklist which filters out posts by selected users. That is all…
How sad is that….Of these am I….in a word
How about:
1. “you don’t donate to fdl so your opinions are not valid”,
2. ” I don’t agree with you so you are a troll”
3. Name-calling
Some of us here don’t do religion, Kelly.
In total agreement with ya msmolly…I HATE nested comments as well…they simply DO NOT WORK WELL at all!
Ghostof911 isn’t a troll, per se. He/she is just obsessed with conspiracy theories and drags them into almost every thread. I usually don’t respond or follow the links, but sometimes my annoyance tolerance tops out and overflows.
See my 6:26.
You’re talking to an atheist, Molly. What I’m saying is exhortations to ignore isn’t necessarily good comment policy.
I tried to find it, but where you mentioned it a bit above, the text is blue, but it’s not a link. Try again?
Unbelievably minute quantities if any. Worry more about the arsenic in your water or the pesticide on your lettuce.
just below it is a link that works.
You are right. Ghost isn’t a troll. I was thinking more in terms of some who are trolls. I don’t want to name names lest they feel like they’ve accomplished something!
I share that opinion in some cases. I don’t think this person is an ordinary attention troll.
It was.
Brava.
It’s the usual “we’re Americans. We’re exceptional. Do as we say. Don’t question us. If our advice doesn’t work, it’s because of you, not us.”.
He doesn’t know but it appears that somebody might be possibly considering criticizing Obama so he weighed in.
Hold on. I am going to wet myself, laughing.
No, not a troll, unless he doesn’t actually believe his rants and is secretly getting his jollies from the reaction they incite. I don’t think so though, I think he may be in need of medical help and definitely in need of a physics class.
***Mod Note: It is time to stop traveling down this path. It is no longer productive.***
Ghost is not a troll. Ghost is . . . uhm . . . a ghost.
He come and he go. We know not where. However, one of my well informed and reliable sources on the street assures me that he is a well known member of the Golden Dawn. He was last seen in the flesh engaging in a whispered conversation with John Dillinger’s head, which was decorating a salad bowl in a cave far below Dealy Plaza in Dallas, TX
Here is a site that has the jetstream analysis’s but nothing I could find about radiation detections:
http://squall.sfsu.edu/crws/jetstream.html
I have to adjust because I am old and used rem. I guess 87 mSv would be about 8.7 rem/hr. Pretty high but not like sky high. On the other hand that high at that distance is shocking.
I thought he said something different. I’ve been waiting for it to repeat, but no dice.
I’ll keep an eye out for this.
I am assuming all Sv readings are per hr.
All the Japanese sites that I have found that report related quantities use whatever per hour, so you are undoubtedly right.
Adding my two cents about hating nested comments. Mod, can you tell me why MyFDL is different and if we are ever going to get relief from this impediment to conversation?
Assuming that is mainly gamma radiation, looks like a fireman who walked into the plant would get a dose of 87 Sievert per hour. Certain death, right? I’m not even sure you could make it that close.
Do I have the numbers right?
Or, possibly, worry about arsenic, pesticide AND radiation?
no invalidation
no name calling
just the fact that it…
“always seems that the person with the least valuable thing to say, is always the one that proves it by opening their mouth”
Goodnight, peeps. I’ve got an early day tomorrow. If this thing blows, keep your heads down.
Well said. There are no conspiracies. Except the ones officials instruct you to believe in.
It’s important not to disturb the Group Think.
A lying government lectures a lying government. I wonder what the moral of that is?
Don’t worry, the experts are taking care of us.
Wow — checking back to Jim White’s radiation post, in one minute my fireman would receive enough radiation to cause certain death, presumably from cardiac collapse.
I wonder if that is why one of the news services made note of the fact that one of the workers who died was holding his chest?
(For my estimate, I assumed a point source at a distance of approx 10 meters and a 1/r**2 gamma radiation pattern).
The statements which are the subject of Scarecrow’s post.
If I weighed in each time it appeared someone was going to ceiticize Obama, it would be a full time job.
I think you and your fellows who attack anyone who mentions “conspiracy theories” are the trolls. What do we do about you?
Goodnight 4cdave.
Where on earth is it? Is it buried somewhere in the nests?
With the potential worst cataclysmic event that perhaps we have ever witnessed possibly involving countless numbers of people dying, injured, and sick and no ‘end game’ in sight…
our vampires of ‘amerikan exceptionalism’ have to let their sociopathic urges get the best of them and let the world hear that ‘daddy’ US of A knows best!
Fucking asswads!
I really wonder what ‘karmic’ event awaits our leaders collective debt of inhumane responses to suffering…
Mod, will we ever have the same format as the other areas of FDL? These nests are hard to take and most of the stuff about the Japanese nuclear disaster is winding up on MyFDL.
I heard the repeated statement now: she says that dose at 300 feet, not meters.
So that means the estimate in this discussion of what the fireman would get at 10 meters should be adjusted to 10 feet.
Put another way: the source is 10x weaker than we thought (10 ~ 3 x 3).
Having just spent some quality time with NUREG-1738 and an Excel spreadsheet, I think that a reasonable estimate for the total fuel pond heat load on site is 12 MW. That’s another factor of 6, yay!
That works out to about 20 gpm per pond. So it’s not terribly different from the reactor numbers. Order-of-magnitude conclusion is similar–minutes per drop if you are getting 1% of the water into the pond.
They are reporting basically no change in the amount of radiation after the water dump compared to before the dump and they had to call off the water dump because the radiation was too high and it was too dangerous to continue.
Next up: Water cannon.
Professor Foland, I’m not sure if you’ve had a chance to see the following from the NAS. If I am understanding their paper correctly, they are modeling heat load based on a “Reference BWR” with a smaller fuel load than is the case for raector 4 (but that’s merely my inference: I can’t find a certain # for the number of rods in a Mark I active core). Even if that’s the case, it may provide a lower limit for the heat load.
Or I may have goofed up altogether: math is hard!
“After a power reactor is shut down, its nuclear fuel continues to produce heat from radioactive decay (see FIGURE 1.2). Although only one-third of the fuel in the reactor core is replaced during each refueling cycle, operators commonly offload the entire core (especially at pressurized water reactors [PWRs]) into the pool during refueling4 to facilitate loading of fresh fuel or for inspection or repair of the reactor vessel and internals. Heat generation in the pool is at its highest point just after the full core has been offloaded.
Pool heat loads can be quite high, as exemplified by a “typical” boiling water reactor (BWR) which was used in some of the analyses discussed elsewhere in this chapter (this BWR is hereafter referred to as the “reference BWR”). This pool has approximately 3800 locations for storage of spent fuel assemblies, about 3000 of which are occupied by four-and-one-third reactor cores (13 one-third-core offloads) in a pool approximately 35 feet wide, 40 feet long, and 39 feet deep (10.7 meters wide, 12.2 meters long, and 11.9 meters deep) with a water capacity of almost 400,000 gallons (1.51 million liters). According to Nuclear Regulatory Commission staff, the total decay heat in the spent fuel pool is 3.9 megawatts (MW) ten days after a one-third-core offload. The vast majority of this heat is from decay in the newly discharged spent fuel. Heat loads would be substantially higher in spent fuel pools that contained a full-core offload.”
http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=11263&page=40
Above calculations are how much water it takes to keep up with boiloff. To completely refill one tank would take about 50 direct hits with 100% transfer efficiency. To minimally cover the rods in an empty tank you’d need about half that, 25 direct hits (with no splashing allowed!) You have about 7 hours from an empty tank until the rods catch fire, and a couple hours after than until they melt completely.
If they are getting 1% of the water into the tanks, they’ll need ~600 helicopter loads over then next 7 hours to replace boiloff, and 2500 helicopter loads over the next 7 hours to cover the rods. That works out to 400 helicopter loads an hour, ~6 a minute, one every ten seconds. For each of the fuel ponds. There are six, I believe, so…
…are they dropping a helicopter load every two seconds?
TV: Reviewing the performance now…
TV: Size of pool is not exactly known. Holds 2000 tons of water. To cool the fuel rods, it does not need to be completely full. Maybe 1/3 capacity of the tank is enough. So water drops are needed continuously. Also, some water is probably still in the tank. Need to keep trying. Looking at figures, this will require “many runs” with a helicopter. The personnel in the helicopter would have to be well-protected. Need a combination of methods. Will spray from ground.
Now, TEPCO conference: TEPCO thanks SDF. Situation as of 9 AM in unit 3: vapor or smoke rose at 8:30 AM; moved workers and decided to drop from air. began preparing to spray from ground. For Unit 4, at 5:45 on March 16 there was a fire. TEPCO confirmed. Injured at Daini, see brochure [ huh? ]. Workers injured at Daiichi were moved to Daini [me: oh, I see].
TEPCO continues: water level discussion. TEPCO says water dropped was sea water. 4 drops of 7.5 tons of water each time. Why third and not fourth? Yesterday, we monitored from a helicopter and there is water in the fourth reactor’s cooling pool. Vapor coming from Unit 3, so we focused there.
TEPCO: Water cannon trucks are here. Procedures carefully reviewed. 13 members of police will operator water cannons.
More: Currently assessing effects. We confirm that there is water in the spent nuclear fuel pond, but we do not know how much. We do not see that the rods are exposed from yesterday’s overhead survey.
From beginning (tape loop): From 6:15 pressure levels were rising, but now are stable.
Not TEPCO: Most important point is that we are dumping water on Unit 3. Water is in pool of Unit 4. No sight of fuel. So focus on Unit 3. Today is the absolute limit (!) for dealing with Unit 3. So we are focusing on Unit 3. Preparing to spraya Unit 3 from ground. What is necessary to be effective? To be effective, all info needs to be pulled together (from helicopter, for example + radiation dosages) to make a comprehensive decision. Strategic planning is necessary. Need accurate assessment. Need to know exactly what is going on.
More discussion: Very hard to know what to do. Doing the best; observe result; try another method. We do not know what to do except by trial and error. Water will be sprayed from ground by trucks by riot police. 50 meter reach by cannon. Must be within 30 meters to aim. to get that close, radiation is a problem.
[me; yesterday they decided this was too dangerous. Now they are going to do it because they have nothing else to prevent a catastrophic radiation release.]
how close can water cannons get to these nuclear power plants
the photos of this nuclear plant does not lead one to believe that water cannons and a power line are going to fix this problem
the nuclear plant looks like bomb was drop on it
what equipment at this plant is going to work, after being hit by an earthquake
the USG sat lites must being telling the USG, this is a hopeless situation
the Japanese guy just ignored Anderson Cooper question about Fuel Pond Number 4
“Earth to cowardly US official: STFU.”
Couldn’t have said it better.
The great irony about foreign policy is that it is essentially built around domestic political needs and aspirations, and only tangentially built around foreign circumstances.
This is neocon strutting, claiming to the American public, not the Japanese, than we’re better than anyone else when it comes to managing crises. So please don’t abandon support for Mr. Obama or the nuke industry because of the mistakes made offshore.
We are almost as good as the Japanese at catering to our corporations, but we fail to ask that they provide competitively paid work at home in exchange for it. After Katrina, it’s not clear how even a neocon would have the balls to suggest we’re world beaters at managing the aftermath of natural or man-made disasters.
This is consistent with what I found, as described downthread.
It looks as if France has radiation-hardened robots it is offering to send to Japan, if my totally inadequate French is sufficiently adequate to understand this:
http://www.atlantico.fr/decryptage/robots-francais-pour-centrale-japonaise-en-panne-57041.html
Seuls la France et l’Allemagne disposent de robots spécialement préparés pour intervenir dans des centrales nucléaires, capables de résister à des taux de radioactivité extrêmes. Henri Proglio, le PDG d’EDF a proposé à l’opérateur japonais Tepco de lui envoyer les robots français.
heh
The greater cowards in that example are the reporter and editor who allowed that US official to remain unnamed. Either print the name or toss the “quote”.
2000 tons is a big pool.
What does “size of the pool is unknown” mean? Meaning, it’s unknown how much water is left? Because they can’t possibly not know the size of the tank.
“Many” runs seems to be thousands. And you have hours to do them.
Possibly because Japanese banks, insurers, et al. need yen for domestic use, so they’re selling assets denominated in other currencies; that’s amplified by FX traders betting on a move into yen and the carry trade, which a strong yen will utterly slaughter outright—and that’s before the margin calls.
We’ve barely begun to feel the financial aftershocks. Remember Lehman in ’08? Much will depend on how globally linked the Japanese financial institutions are. The ripples through the CDS markets, sovereign debt, repo—it’s all a great big nervous-making question mark.
They’ve decided to focus on reactor #3 because the helicopter pilots have reported that they could see water in the cooling pool in reactor #4.
50 meters The water cannon is very accurate up to a distance of 30 meters. After that, the spray cone widens but can extend up to 50 meters. They didn’t say what the distance will be after the water cannon is maneuvered into its final position.
jmo, but i think it makes sense if evaluated through the lens of the constant campaign. in which case it is very helpful.
has nothing to do with the actual crisis. all about the campaign (distance the administration from the Japanese gov, take an attitude of “we know best” to distance, and therefore shield, USA nuclear energy industry from what is happening in Japan).
that’s how i make sense of it anyway.
Coming late after a nap, and I agree that trying to paint the Japanese as incompetent is part of a strategy to defend continued US reliance on and subsidies for nuke power.
However, I think another reason the USG is so hot for the Japanese to contain this is due to the fact that if it goes maximum sideways, there will be detectable and dangerous fallout amounts found in Alaska, Hawaii, and perhaps mainland coastal areas, not to mention the infiltration of the food chain, both oceanic and land-based.
As for the Japanese technicians working on site, if I were them I’d walk off until the CEO and entire BoD of TEPCO joins them at the facility. One exec goes in with each new tech team.
My interpretation of the pressers I just reported:
This is now acknowledged and confirmed to be extraordinarily close to the end of the line for the Unit 3 spent fuel.
Hang on, pups. Water cannon next.
These riot police are going to have to get within 30 meters. Radiation dose will be approx 800 mSv / hour at that distance. These are riot police, so they have no previous doses from the plant. They get 250 mSv. That takes about 20 minutes. At that level, they will have damaged bone marrow; every minute more increases the chance of death.
So as we watch…in round numbers, they get 20 minutes to spray or this is a suicide mission by my estimate.
That assumes (for example) that there is not a serious steam plume or spattering that changes their dosages.
Someone else quantitative want to check the numbers please?
beat me to it and said it better than i ever could. thanks.
TPM article notes US “growing” alarm over nuclear situation in Japan. Growing? We should have been alarmed a long time ago. Instead of lecturing Japan, Oboober should be ordering a complete risk evaluation of all of OUR reactors. What hubris.
No, they called off the water dump because it was too dangerous.
Below, I assume that they will get within 30 meters. That is the most efficient way to proceed.
Further away, the water (and therefore their time) will be wasted. They would have more time, but balance that against the waste.
Question: will they be able to see the target? Or will they be randomly spraying from the ground up into the top of the wreckage?
As a federal radiological emergency specialist, I served on the federal team that responds to radiological emergencies, formulates protective action recommendations and advises state and local decision makers. It was my job, also, to respond to the NRC ops center and to brief the NRC commissioners on ingestion pathway issues (contamination of food and agricultural resources).
In my experience, it is virtually unknown for the feds to publicly issue a more conservative protective action recommendation (PAR) than local authorities have issued. I had many discussions with senior federal officials on this subject and, each time, they refused to establish any policy or procedures that would allow it although, none totally ruled out the possibility. During the Bush administration, the ban on second-guessing local officials was so strict that I was not permitted even to volunteer a recommendation for consideration by local officials if they had not requested it.
Now, we see the NRC issuing a PAR that differs enormously from the one issued by Japanese officials who are even more obsessed about “face” than U.S. local officials. I can only conclude that the situation is indeed, extremely dire and that U.S. officials feels they could not live with themselves if they did not issue it. I suspect there were many negotiations behind closed doors leading up to this, which would explain the sudden NRC departure from its earlier agreement with Japan’s PARs. It may be that US officials are very angry that Japanese authorities are putting their people at risk and thus willing to violate a longstanding policy.
God help the Japanese people.
AND I’ve said it before, but HAARP is a big-assed ham rig. That’s it. 3.6MW, 3 to 10 mhz. Sure it’s powerful, but it’s radio waves in a standard frequency band. And it’s often pulsed, which greatly reduces average amplitude. We used to pulse close to that much power on air search radar…a long time ago…but I can’t tell you about that. (Oops)
Sheesh
Yes but it’s mSv, as in milli.
Surely they can find 13 protective suits.
They have a few hours at most to get them into place and in action, and they have to be able to deliver water in large quantities.
I don’t speak French. What do you think?
That’s the gist. The CEO of EDF (its PDG or president-directeur general) offered to send radiation hardened robots to Japan. The article claims that only France and Germany, post Chernobyl, developed ambulatory robots robust enough to withstand radioactive and temperature hot zones inside a reactor building.
The article notes the irony of that, given Japan’s pre-eminence in electronics and robotics. If that’s true, it is a great irony, given Japan’s relatively great dependence on nuclear power.
EDF is a large French multinational power company. Its English website is at bottom.
http://www.edf.com/the-edf-group-42667.html
They don’t have time to argue.
It’s getting to be now or never.
Assuming isotropic point source 800 mSv/hr is about right at 30 m scaling from the 87 mSv/hr at 100 m.
Couldn’t they learn from Chernobyl? Instead of having one policeman direct the cannon for 20 minutes, have 20 policeman direct the cannon for 1 minute each.
There was terrible carnage at Chernobyl, especially among some specialities like pilots, but they brought in so many men (600,000? I think I read?) to work for a tiny amount of time on lower skilled activities, that many lives were spared.
In that comment, I got a factor of 1000 increase by getting closer by a factor of 30 (300 meters / 10 meters) and then squaring that.
So mSv -> Sv. Note below, though, that the distance from the report was 300 feet rather than 300 meters.
The press should stop letting Obama act like such a passive-aggressive…of course they’re not going to, but one can always hope. It’s pretty horrible for an anonymous coward to lecture people for not going on suicide missions – here’s an idea…have the anonymous coward be the first to go on the suicide missions.
After they finish with the water cannon, they are going to hook up to the power line and after that hook-up they are going to attack reactor #3 with 11 water canon trucks.
That was a rhetorical question. :(
the Nuclear Power Lobby is working over time tonite
they have some hack speaking on CNN and MSNBC, talking about how Nuclear Power workers prepare for suicide missions
Jim Walsh and others made it clear, there is no game plan for stopping 6 nuclear power plants from melting down
Michael Friedlander must work for the nuclear power lobby
base on what lobster just said and the source at the WH, this is a suicide mission
I don’t think people sign up for suicide missions when they go to work for a Nuclear power company.
Appreciate your knowledge – apologies if this was redundant…very slow typist here.
That’s certainly a legitimate US concern. It ought to be and presumably has been a message sent to the Japanese, from the prime minister to agency heads and industry executives. That’s the way governments send messages that a topic is of vital rather than passing interest, by making sure the bureaucracy from the bottom to the top of the totem pole hears the same message.
An unattributed jibe intended for a domestic political audience would ordinarily be understood by the recipient as a necessary evil. Under these circumstances, those sorts of barbs will strike deeper and have longer lasting consequences than an American PR operative will ever understand.
I’m guessing gamma radiation is dominant. What do you think?
They will definitely have protective suits, but how well can that work?
I do speak French, and the linked article says that, if it happens, it would be a full-scale test of the robots, which have never really been used in real-life conditions.
“Ce serait un test en grandeur nature pour ces équipes. Nous, en France n’avons jamais eu d’incident de cette ampleur. Cela permettrait de valider en conditions réelles l’utilisation de ces robots qui contrairement à Asimo ou HRP2 sont téléopérés.”
In other words, no magic bullet, even if they would get there in time.
I don’t know if it’s typical, but alpineco’s water cannon truck (http://www.alpineco.com/armored/riotcontrol/) holds about 2000 gallons (~8 tons) and has a rate of 600 gallons per minute.
The Japanese have botched this from the very start.
I have a strong suspicion but do not know that we, the NRC, the NSC and the military at the top were way behind the curve on this too. At any rate they should have been reading the highest levels of the Japanese government the riot act the moment it was learned the back up power was lost.
It’s impossible to judge the motivation of the NRC guy and it really doesn’t make any difference.
I won’t bother offering my bonifides but on Monday afternoon I remembered about the fuel pools and instantly knew certain disaster was at hand. And I am now just some schmuck on the internet who hasn’t entered a nuclear plant in 25 years. If I had my mind on it Saturday I would have known then.
second that. can’t stand them. at first i thought it was something i just had to get used to, but the more i use them the more i hate them.
nested comments are especially hard to take when there is no (or irregular) post comments rss feed (to order the comments chronologically). on this post there is a comments feed which helps a little.
http://my.firedoglake.com/scarecrow/2011/03/16/japan-nuke-watch-why-is-unnamed-us-official-lecturing-japan/feed/
also miss the edit bar.
If the reactors are in a state of failure so acute and radiation levels are so high that working there even for minutes is, or will soon be, a suicide mission, what do the officials do?
Ask for volunteers or .. .. .. .. .. .. ..? Well, what exactly?
I don’t see any reason why those trucks cannot be fed continuously by other pumps.
Every large mobile pump in Japan should have been staged and or moving to the site Saturday morning.
My fear is that their desperation is targeted as much at their political futures as in critiquing the management of a nuclear disaster.
If things go poorly in Japan, those conference room bound American bureaucrats will suddenly be on the front line of managing problems, along with local officials, along the entire American West Coast.
They don’t sign up for it, but there is definitely a perception that has been substantiated by interviews, and others in the profession, that they are dedicated to the cause. The saving grace of humanity is the willingness of a few to go into the maw of death to save the lives of others.
We can only hope they are being honest about the risks. All deserve the respect of the world for what they are trying to do on the ground at Fukushima.
Ditto, please. Numbers with links to comments if the post is a reply and latest posts at bottom of page, as elsewhere on the site.
I’m confused, Masoninblue. I thought that there was a single charge with the 11 water cannon trucks. However, the TEPCO presser had a lot of mumbling so I didn’t get it all.
Do the trucks circulate? How long does it take to refill them? One presumes that the riot police are volunteers who know how to use the equipment. 13 strong souls.
Professor Foland: What is setting the time scale for action at Unit 3 right now? The water is gone. Do we assume it is melting and the control rods stacked in their with them are becoming less useless?
They are using sea water in the water cannons. Is there boric acid included? If not, isn’t this, ummm, incredibly dangerous?
This is heavy duty stuff.
In presser they said each truck had 4000 liters, iirc.
The water cannons are the last ditch defense from the fuel igniting, I’m sure they realize this. The operators of said cannons will likely be exposed to levels of radiation better stated above by people more skilled with the calculations, but short answer, probably lethal doses.
If they can get the power/pumping ability restored somewhat, they’ll have less need to vent and do other emergency measures, and have a better shot at getting water and containment around the spent rods.
Volunteers, I expect.
They are using riot police because (a) unlike plant operators, they have no previous radiation exposure, so that they can stay longer and (b) they know how to operate the equipment.
Surely there are high pressure fire trucks? Why riot gear? It must be because the water column is maximally collimated, so that the standback is as great as possible.
I’m listening to the TV continuously. The voices are shaking now, it seems to me.
I like the ESPN comment:
C’MON, MAN!
The good thing about the bad thing about Chernobyl was the vast majority of the material was sitting right out in the open and all manner for material could be poured onto it easily by air. Here anything from the reactors is down below ground level and getting any thing to it is nearly impossible. As to the fuel pools if they fail the material is likely to fall to the next level down making getting any material to cool our bury it very sketchy.
Above a 25 rem dose, they ask for volunteers. In theory, anyway.
Prof Foland, please see my questions above @ 7:52.
I have a strong suspicion that the electrical system in the units that had explosions have non functioning electrical systems not to mention non functioning mechanical systems. All related to piping systems, pumps and valves to feed water to the reactors or pools.
Probably legally no one can get more than 25 rem by plan, but the likelihood of the plan not working and these people getting a lot more is high.
What I find particularly awful is that this is almost certainly pointless. What comes next is almost impossible to stop now.
TV: Now reporting bird flu in Chiba as we noticed the other day. H5 virus has spread. All farms in large radius searched. Chicken zero located. 62,000 birds killed. Ban was placed on transfer on all chickens and eggs in 10 km radius. Whole area sterilized. [ Can you believe this!!!??? All at one time.]
That’s what I’ve always heard, too. I’ve heard it described as the same kind of camaraderie and devotion to others in the group that can be found in tightly-knit military units. It’s a cynical world but I still believe that many of us would step forward to help in any way we could if our communities were under such dire threat.
From the time that the water disappears, about 7 hours until the cladding catches fire, 3 after that until the cladding melts, and 5-10 after that that the fuel melts.
I think the pools have amuch lower fill fraction than a reactor core, so off the cuff I’d bet that even without boron you just get heat pulses up until the fuel melts, at which point…let’s just hope they have boron.
(rehash, new announcer) TV: Unit 3 started because of observation of steam from unit. Since water dropping has not changed radiation levels, ground attack will commence soon.
Japanese Defense Minister expects that the water cannons will be successful. He has to say this. Tragic.
becomingjohngalt???
For some reason that reminds me of that movie with Bette Midler, ummm…
Hearts.. had to look it up
Beaches!
To summarize, they called off the water dump with helicopters because the radiation was too high, the activity was too dangerous, and the water that they dumped basically had no effect on reducing the radioactivity.
They focused on reactor #3 because the pilots reported that water is present in the cooling pool in reactor #4. They will be focusing on reactor #3 from this point forward.
Next up will be to use a water cannon on reactor #3. The water cannon is very accurate up to a distance of 30 meters. After that, the spray cone widens but can extend up to 50 meters. They didn’t say what the distance will be after the water cannon is maneuvered into its final position. I’m not sure they know until they try it. Because of the high radiation, the crew handling the truck and the water cannon will be limited, I think, to 20 minutes (not sure about this). Lobster or Professor Foland, do you know?
To make matters worse, an especially virulent form of avian flu has been identified in chickens at a farm in Chiba City. 60,000+ chickens will be destroyed to prevent it from spreading.
After they finish with the water cannon, they are going to hook up to the power line and after that hook-up they are going to attack reactor #3 with 11 water canon trucks.
Yes, I was just thinking–even if there are no fittings, it’s time to take the grinder to the top of the tank and just cut a hole to stick a hose into.
Seems like you’d plan to do something like that, have them aim the cannons and line them up, and then have the operators run like hell back to some perimeter and just leave the cannons shooting.
So where are we on that clock? When did that large plume of steam from Unit 3 peter out? That would be the time to start the clock.
The article also says that the Americans also possess such nuclear radiation hardened robots. One would have thought the Americans would already have offered them to the Japanese. I haven’t seen a reference to it.
After Chernobyl, in 1988, the French and Germans (both countries rely on nuclear power generation) formed a cooperative enterprise with the acronym, INTRA, English website below. According to that website, its purpose was to establish, maintain and make available to its members on a 24/7 basis a fleet of radiation hardened robots capable of assisting in observation and repairs in the event of major nuclear accidents. Like drones, they are operated remotely by “pilots”.
http://www.groupe-intra.com/index2.htm
That’s what they do!
this rate of water will chemically breakdown into hydrogen and oxygen quickly at such fuel heat levels, making matters worst, lose lose no?
I’m not an engineer, so will not comment on that aspect. But, whether they knew or not, entrenched bureaucratic custom ensured that they fail to act independently until the situation became desperate. I don’t agree with that policy. I simply acknowledge its existence.
Up until the cladding melts, you don’t need the boron at all I think. Between cladding melt and fuel melt I bet you’re probably but not certainly ok.
A forecast by the Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban Treaty Organization
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/03/16/science/plume-graphic.html?ref=science
Unless water levels are raised in reactor #3, the rods will begin melting. The radiation before the water dump at 300 feet altitude was 3,782 micro sieverts. After the dump, it was 3,752 micro sieverts.
The water dump does not appear to have had any effect.
The first water cannon effort should take place soon.
It’s really not the place of the US to whine that the Japanese should sent people on suicide missions to die of radiation. There was that Hiroshima/Nagasaki thing, remember? Especially if the UNNAMED little cockroach is going to be such a punk about it, by remaining nameless he is any American.
Fuck that, and fuck Obama too.
Hydrogen explosions at Fukushima won’t kill anyone in Tokyo.
I wonder why they could not have moved in barge mounted cranes, pumps and hoses by now with the capacity needed. Probably because coastal facilities have be whalloped by the tsumani and lack capacity, yet… Or truck mounted booms hooked to the sea water pumps. The rigs could be driven in set up, and perhaps not require continuous manning.
Upthread I thought it was 87 mSv at 300 feet? 3.7 is a lot better than that!
Shit.
How many chess dimensions are we at here?
While much has changed culturally in Japan since WWII, it hasn’t much changed the sense of personal and collective duty exhibited by professionals in these dire circumstances. Personal fears notwithstanding, these men will stand their posts until relieved.
It’s the job of their superiors to know when to do that. It’s also their job to know and honor them later when it won’t be possible to relieve them. Unlike the current American management ethos, executives in Japan retain moral as well as professional obligations to those who follow their leadership.
Jesus, 12 elderly patients died after they were evacuated from a hospital to a shelter in a school. Two died en route and the other 10 died at the shelter.
The value of the yen has been surging as investors have been buying it in anticipation that it’s going to take a lot of yen to rebuild Japan.
The weather is below freezing with snow at higher elevations forecast, but at least the winds are out of the NW and blowing out to sea.
I believe they just got a road bull-dozed through today; thus the sudden appearance of more trucks, cannon, etc.
The part I don’t understand is why they haven’t borrowed a fleet of Chinook 47′s to bring in fuel bladders, electrical equipment, trucks, pumps, generators etc. over the last few days. We have enough bases in and around Japan that there must be plenty of Chinooks, pilots and crews available. Lost opportunities .. .. .. ..
Secondary infections, principally respiratory and GI related, are likely to be great, given the exposure, the cold and wind, the physical and emotional exhaustion, lack of clothing and sleeping gear, and lack of food and clean drinking water.
That’s another epidemic for an already overstrained community and medical establishment. It’s the nature of large-scale disasters to have multiple knock-on effects.
I wrote down those numbers as the reporters said them.
I think it will be shown at the end that a large proportion of the dead and missing will be elderly. In part because so few young people live in that part of the country now, having moved to cities for jobs, and in part because many of the poor old folks couldn’t run uphill fast enough when the tsunami warnings sounded.
Separate report from separate presser. Was talking specifically about helicopter readings. This other number is plant boundary, I think?
I would like to be wrong.
This from A-J’s live blog may be old news, but here it is:
Mason,
Did you see my message at the bottom of your “Eliminate Nuclear Power” thread?
They and very young children will also be more susceptible to stress and post-event exhaustion, exposure, dehydration, etc.
Good news according to Yomiuri is that the helicopter reports water visibly present and deep in #4. (whereas they were dropping water into #3)
I’d still be a lot more comfortable to see cranes and pipes as opposed to “riot control gear” there.
I’m afraid it may be pointless, too. So why are they continuing with the efforts to bring it under control?
At some point, they will likely have to change to a strategy of burying the reactors. Are there any special risks or consequences to this change of strategy that make it preferrable to wait rather than start immediately? It seems that the longer they wait, the greater the radiation levels will be and the greater the cost in human morbidity and mortality on site, throughout Japan and, potentially, around the Pacific.
The cold weather will have one advantage: it will lower the incidence of water borne illnesses like cholera. With thousands of dead, and many thousands of dead animals, those sorts of diseases will be of concern.
So are we not buying that (“NRC: there is no water in spent fuel pool”) is accurate. If it is correct does that mean this pool is a lost cause or they are prolonging the inevitable (rightfully so) because the air drops didnt work and the water cannons can’t possibly inundate the fuel?
The Guardian live blog reports the numbers at 14: 2 died en route and 12 died after arrival.
Why can’t the cannon reach the fuel pools? If they’re in line of sight from helicopters, the hole(s) in the roof must be large enough and placed well enough to give some access?
I am without TV images. Is there a way to set up a “lead wall with ceiling” in front of the firetruck (with a small hole for the hose to fit through the wall)?
Once the truck is positioned in front of the reactor, this lead fort could help to decrease the radiation exposure. The humans could aim via a closed circuit TV so that the lead wall’s shielding would not be compromised by windows.
A different reporter, who did not mention numbers, said the amount of radioactivity did not change from a distance of 100 meters from the building.
The Defense Minister reported that a helicopter obtained these readings before the water dump:
4.13 mSv @ 1,000 feet
87.7 mSv @ 300 feet
But TEPCO reported the lower numbers that I mentioned. They were obtained “100 meters from the building.”
So, now I’m confused. Apparently, the TEPCO measurements were taken on the ground.
Thoughts?
Thanks. I don’t have much luck with live video feeds.
My source is the live TV feed.
This is like 9/11. I can’t stop watching.
I just verified the 87 mSv/hour @ 300 feet report for a second time.
if they can reach, wont it take an enormous amount of water to be dispered in the pool in a small period of time in order to avoid chemical breakdown of water to hydrogen and oxygen on contact? I am asking
There is a lot of building between the ground and the fourth floor, and there is a lot of concrete in that building b/c of the containment. So I think 100 meters through the building is very different from 100 meters through clear air (in helicopter).
My estimate of 20 minutes can be much longer if they stay on the ground and use the shadow of the building — but then they are blind, too, as far as trying to kill the Death Star. I don’t think they’ll have the Force working for them.
So again, i don’t know whether they will be aiming or not. To the extent that they can aim, they will be in harm’s way. Maybe they will use spotters? That would make good sense.
No. The diary dropped off the conveyor belt. But I can retrieve it from my MyFDL page, so I’ll check it out.
BTW, Pluto is kicking ass. Brutal.
or evaporation due to the amount of heat coming from the pool
More snow forecast over the next 24 hours, a couple cm. God this is brutal.
Yes — by the end of the week. Key question is how much radiation will be in the cloud after the long, long journey.
Were there any radiation readings high enough to obviously affect human health 5,000 miles from Chernobyl?
Seems to me they’re only prolonging the inevitable, the spent rods will stay hot for months. Then there’s the active rods in the reactors, one of which is MOX (plutonium), I think it’s #3 (?). They can’t do this for as long as they’ll need to if this is all they can do.
Hopefully there is another solution in the works.
Hydrogen efflux and burning is not the risk anymore. The risk is a steam explosion driven by the energy of the melted fuel rods. Although theoretical in nature and highly dependent on details we cannot possibly know, the steam explosion could be very large and very dispersive.
Can you post me a link so I can try to watch some of this?
You know it.
There’s really only one way to find out.
Is Unit 3′s pool the one holding MOX fuel? If so, and a burn begins, how could they possibly expect to work with plutonium being released?
I’ll take “No” for $1000, Alex.
Here’s NHK.
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/nhk-world-tv
The real scary news come after the fact. It appears that there was a mistaken literal cut off of dedicated data and comm lines from the nuclear site to head office last night. It apparently took about 8 hrs to restore, in the meantime only communication available being satellite phones. Just as well the news does not get known until well into the next day.
Unless they have further accidents, power should be restored today apparently.
I’d like to see not just cranes but an army of robots.
Check your email.
Plutonium is a component of all spent fuel. If there is MOX involved, it is at something like the 6% level b/c it was just starting at this facility. As far as is known here, all of the MOX is still in the reactor containment.
Hopefully a fuel rod melt-driven explosion will not damage the reactor containment. Of any of the six reactors.
Link? Sounds interesting.
Dang. I had hoped it might offer another alternative. An alternative to human volunteers, I mean.
Thanks. I know I am being a pest, as the link was also in the original post, I see. However, do you know what it takes to make this stream to work? I get a black screen.
You’re right. I was confused.
TV: Estimate need for 750 tonnes of water in the storage pool of unit 3.
Not a pest, no worries.
: )
AFAIK the stream runs on flash, you might try installing the latest flash drivers or whatever for your browser, hard to say from there…
Thank you.
I just heard a report that matches the numbers on the Guardian blog, so I’m going to guess that the total is 14 with 2 dying en route and 12 at the school.
I may not use exactly the same language but I agree with your sentiments completely.
Kyodo:
So, I’m picturing an arc spitting out of the water cannon and I think it’s going to be difficult to aim it from down on the ground & have the arc start filling the pool, a target that can’t be seen from the ground. Having a spotter in a plane will help, but a drone would be safer, assuming one is available.
5 hrs not 8. Yomiuri (Japanese) and the hoped for electrical connection is Asahi (Japanese), thought better not to provide links that can’t be read.
Something about the storage pool in #4 building isn’t making sense to me. An explosion has been reported from inside that building. The reactor is in cold shutdown, the fuel rods have been removed and are in the storage pool and covered with water. Where did the hydrogen to cause an internal explosion come from if the storage pool water hasn’t boiled or drained away enough to raise the temperature of the rods to 2200 degrees so that the hydrogen will crack out of the water?
You’ve got mail.
I have two dates for Japan, but no TOB:
Meiji Chart: February 11, 1889, Tokyo
Second chart: May 3, 1947, Tokyo
The Meiji chart appears to be the closest fit for the catastrophe. Transiting Saturn is within six degrees of natal Uranus, not technically in aspect until the latter part of April, but it’s close enough to be operative, imo. I’d bet that there’s a Pluto transit either going through the fourth house, or is aspecting it or its ruler. But can’t confirm that. What we do know is that a catastrophe of this size and scale and the mass death falls under Pluto, although I’d add combined with Saturn.
Also, in both charts, transiting Pluto squares Venus, billions of dollars in damage, the Nikkei has plumbeted, although a friend said it’s come back up again, and Zero Hedge was reporting today as it was happening panic among currency traders, although it was too technical for me to understand.
Lobster, you said: “There are radiation monitors giving real-time levels on the internet all around the country” [Japan].
Do you have a link to that data? Many thanks.
Ding! I have the same question.
What matters is the morbidity and mortality.
Ann N Y Acad Sci. 2009 Nov;1181:161-91.
Oncological diseases after the Chernobyl catastrophe.
Yablokov AV.
Russian Academy of Sciences, Leninsky Prospect 33, Office 319, 119071 Moscow, Russia. Yablokov@ecopolicy.ru
Abstract
The most recent forecast by international agencies predicted there would be between 9,000 and 28,000 fatal cancers between 1986 and 2056, obviously underestimating the risk factors and the collective doses. On the basis of I-131 and Cs-137 radioisotope doses to which populations were exposed and a comparison of cancer mortality in the heavily and the less contaminated territories and pre- and post-Chernobyl cancer levels, a more realistic figure is 212,000 to 245,000 deaths in Europe and 19,000 in the rest of the world. High levels of Te-132, Ru-103, Ru-106, and Cs-134 persisted months after the Chernobyl catastrophe and the continuing radiation from Cs-137, Sr-90, Pu, and Am will generate new neoplasms for hundreds of years.
That was something I was wondering about too. Maybe that fire they reported was unrelated to the fuel rod tanks being too low, but honestly I don’t think they’ve given us enough information. The misinformation about reactor #2 kinda gives us reason to suspect something not good at all is happening.
Interesting insight.
I spent a lot of time following DK’s “Gulf Watchers” diaries during the BP Oil Spill. Among the commenters, the BP apologists and the Obama apologists sounded like they were reading from the exact same script. They were so fixated on the video feed that many were alarmingly ignorant of all else.
I’ve been hearing on the CBC that at least one reactor has a reactor vessel failure and is spewing clouds of material. If that is reactor 3, we appear to have a mechanism for dispersion of plutonium from a source with a concentration of Pu far greater than that seen in uranium fuel.
Plutonium’s toxicity and lethality is quite dissimilar to that of relevant uranium isotopes
Plutonium may be a component of all spent fuel. Cyanide is a component of peach pits.
Yet I’m unaware of medical literature citing peach pits when discussing cyanide’s toxicity in environmental exposures, much less its lethality in execution chambers.
Unless the concentration of plutonium in spent spent fuel rods (or the active rods moved from reactor 4 core to fuel rod pool for Dec 2010 maintanence) is the 6-7% found in reactor 3 MOX fuel rods, the comparison seems irrelevant at best: misleading at worst.
I trust I have misunderstood.
Concentration is not what matters; for the concerns you are considering, it is the total amount of plutonium that matters. The fact that the MOX fuel rods inside the containment have more plutonium than the non-MOX fuel rods would not be important if there were only 1 MOX fuel rod, right? What I am saying is that there is plutonium in the spent fuel outside the containment that is far more likely to cause health damage.
Somewhere in the earlier threads I recall an analysis that said a 10% MOX fuel mix would double the toxicity of the whole fuel assembly. Obviously bad; but a factor of two for the component that is not yet outside the containment.
Your concerns from previous posts, etc., about the spent fuel outside the containment are by far the dominant issue on the table.
Alright. We have evidently reached the end of mitigation efforts that have more than an infinitesimal chance of working. These makeshift water injection efforts must be considered failures, unfortunately.
IMO, this is now a level 7 incident — the same level as Chernobyl. Given the proximity to highly populated areas, it will be worse than Chernobyl with respect to impact on humans. It is still too early to know which accident will have released more radiation.
I know that some of us have disagreed over the likely outcome of this disaster over the last few days. I have been more cautious in my assessments of the severity than most here. At this point, I believe further evacuations are needed as well as a great deal more discussion about the radiological effects likely in Japan. The plume calculations for North American impacts that started showing up yesterday are, to my mind, more alarming than my back of the envelope estimates.
I am quite certain that at this point there are extensive estimates about the radiological effects to be expected in North America under various scenarios. It is vital that these estimates become part of the public discourse. Let us focus our attention on this single issue today. It is time to shake the USG tree hard.
Margaret
The equivalent yield is much greater than that. You’ve used the wrong magnitude scale. The earthquake had moment-magnitude (Mw) 9.1 (probably will go up further as we learn more about it). Mw is a scale invented by Kanamori (CalTech) to match the Ms and ML scales over the ranges they function and continue to higher magnitudes where the other scales have saturated.
It is defined as
Mw= log10(Mo)/1.5 – 10.73
where Mo is the seismic moment in dynes/cm.
The Mw 9.1 quake has mo 5e29 dynes/cm which converts to
1.195 million megatons.
The earthquake was many times more powerful than all the bombs on Earth put together.
First of all, regarding Jaczko’s comments. Everyone knows how much I despise the US government in pretty much all its forms so no one would think me a shill. However, I wonder if what he did and said yesterday wasn’t legitimate. I think he was trying to force the Japanese’ in particular TEPCO’s hand, by provoking a non-denial to confirm what the US (and europe) were already more or less certain of. He may just save lives. It may lead to faster action to help its own citizens on the part of Japan. The very worst aspect of Chernobyl was deliberate misinformation spread to the population within the danger area. They were denied the chance to take even minimal precautions which could have prevented contamination. If people in Fukushima and Tokyo are at least aware of what they face, they can effectively shield themselves. But it requires a disciplined effort where people do everything the right way – staying inside and sealing everything for instance. People also need to understand risks of particulate contimants, and understand decontamination. It will save lives.
Probably time to look at western Europe’s experience after Chernobyl. It seems the potential amount of radiation that could be released in this incident is many, many times greater than it was in the Ukraine. If the long series of spiralling catastrophes continues, we will inevitably reach the point where all or most of that material is released to the atmosphere (high atmosphere).
Time for a story: two weeks after Chernobyl, I was staying in Vienna with my soon-to-be wife’s cousin, who was the managing engineer for the Vienna subway expansion project. We got up the day after we arrived to find him gone. Late the evening he got home and told us he had awakened at 2am with the thought screaming in his head, “Air Filters!”. He called his friend and former professor at the university and they met at 3am in downtown Vienna with a Geiger counter and a set of tools, and tested the filter area of the huge pneumatic drilling machine that was opening the new tunnels under the city. The Geiger counter was off the scale.
By 4am they had a dozen people awake in Germany, France, Netherlands, Belgium, and Sweden, engineers and professors they knew, and by 8am a lot of people in European academia, civil engineering, and government offices were in action. By noon there were orders to check and steps to remove and bag air filters on every type of motor and air conditioning system in Europe, with requirements established for daily testing and removal.
That’s the kind of thing we are looking at. Mundane, everyday type of actions to deal with concentrating radioactive particulates.
Kyodo
Defense Minister Toshimi Kitazawa said he had given the go-ahead for the helicopters to drop water as the radiation level was 4.13 millisievert per hour at an altitude of 1,000 feet and 87.7 millisievert at 300 feet.
The choppers actually did so at a height of less than 300 feet, but their 10 crew members suffered no health problems with less than 60 millisievert of radiation measured from them after decontamination, against 100 millisievert to which they can be exposed in an emergency mission, SDF generals said.
I derive no satisfaction from saying that I arrived at the same conclusion some time ago. I’ve been asking questions to nudge people in what I perceived to be the right direction, but people seem slow, or at least reluctant to consider how truly fucked up the situation is.
Like 9/11, this catastrophe is one of those life and conscious altering events that unalterably changes the way we experienced our lives and our conscious awareness of what was important before the event compared to after the event.
May God help us all, especially the Japanese people who are so close to the disaster and so much more directly affected by it.
Amen.
greenpeaceusa Greenpeace USA
MT @W7VOA: RT @martyn_williams: TEPCO has released video shot from helicopter on Mar 16, 4pm, of #Fukushima http://youtu.be/lBXqiw6EJUk
I’ve put up a new update post since Scarecrow had to be away for a bit:
http://my.firedoglake.com/jimwhite/2011/03/17/thursday-night-in-japan-water-spraying-fails-radiation-high-at-reactor-buildings/
As I’ve been saying, the number of available trained workers is a critical factor, and they’re going through them pretty fast, with high levels in the work areas.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-17/japan-churns-through-heroic-workers-hitting-radiation-limits-for-humans.html
IN the time they were up there, they could not have received that much radiation IF the radiation levels at different altitudes being quoted are true. There are more lies in there than you would believe. My guess is that radiation levels are massively higher than we are being told.
The naval base at Yokosuka reports on Facebook that it has ordered limited protective action (but doesn’t specify) for Navy personnel on the U.S.S. George Washington, currently docked at the pier, based on detected “low levels” of radiation. Again, no specifics on the radiation monitoring and/or sampling results. Yokosuka is 175 miles from Fukushima.
This information suggests very significant ground level contamination closer to Fukushima. However, there is no indication that Japanese authorities have released any actual sampling results, if indeed they have collected any. If US radiological plans were followed, extensive monitoring and field sampling would have been done by now, including sampling of soil, vegetation, water, crops, roadways, etc. The U.S. is performing a little better by taking more aggressive protective actions, but is almost as bad at hiding raw data. Undoubtedly, officials think this will avoid panic, but the information gap is doing a good job itself of raising fears, as the KI panic demonstrates.
Update: The precautions being taken include:
A. Limiting outdoor activities.
B. Securing external ventilation systems as much as practical.
As I noted in my previous comment, this is for a location 175 miles from Fukushima.
The greatest failure, in terms of protective actions, as I see it, is the failure of authorities to define the edge of the radioactive plume and any hotspots that may lie outside the plume proper. That information is necessary in order to know if previously ordered protective actions should be expanded. Notably, local officials have not changed the protective actions in days, despite continuing releases that are adding to the accumulating radioactive contamination.