On several occasions after the Great Depression began, President Hoover admonished the public and those demanding the government provide economic relief that the nation had run out of money and that it would be irresponsible to borrow and engage in profligate spending. Over 80 years later, we are hearing virtually the same economic gibberish from President Obama.
From the President’s weekly address:
For years, the government has spent more money than it takes in. The result is a lot of debt on our nation’s credit card – debt that unless we act will weaken our economy, cause higher interest rates for families, and force us to scale back things like education and Medicare.
Now, folks in Washington like to blame one another for this problem. But the truth is, neither party is blameless. And both parties have a responsibility to do something about it. Every day, families are figuring out how stretch their paychecks – struggling to cut what they can’t afford so they can pay for what’s really important. It’s time for Washington to do the same thing. But for that to happen, it means that Democrats and Republicans have to work together. It means we need to put aside our differences to do what’s right for the country. Everyone is going to have to be willing to compromise. Otherwise, we’ll never get anything done.
That’s why we need a balanced approach to cutting the deficit. We need an approach that goes after waste in the budget and gets rid of pet projects that cost billions of dollars. We need an approach that makes some serious cuts to worthy programs – cuts I wouldn’t make under normal circumstances. And we need an approach that asks everybody to do their part.
And via Brad DeLong, here is President Hoover in 1932:
In his Budget Message for fiscal year 1933, Hoover wrote:
In framing this Budget, I have proceeded on the basis that the estimates for 1933 should ask for only the minimum amounts which are absolutely essential for the operation of the Government under existing law, after making due allowance for continuing appropriations. The appropriation estimates for 1933 reflect a drastic curtailment of the expenses of Federal activities in all directions where a consideration of the public welfare would permit it…. The welfare of the country demands that the financial integrity of the Federal Government be maintained…. [W]e are now in a period where Federal finances will not permit of the assumption of any obligations which will enlarge the expenditures to be met from the ordinary receipts of the Government…. To those individuals or groups who normally would importune the Congress to enact measures in which they are interested, I wish to say that the most patriotic duty which they can perform at this time is to themselves refrain and to discourage others from seeking any increase in the drain upon public finances…
What we now face is a President who insists we are in a debt crisis that reputable economists say is phony, a product of deficit hysteria, political cynicism, and economic ignorance.. And he insists the debt crisis requires we take economically damaging steps that will harm the public by undermining popular and beneficial programs to preserve our future. He’s told us we must do this to achieve economic prosperity and that we can’t even have a meaningful conversation about the jobless until this is done so the debt problem is not just a distraction; solving it is a prerequisite to economic recovery. Eat your peas.
Moreover, he’s effectively affirmed the precedent that it’s okay for a crazy, irresponsible, anti-government party to threaten to tank US credit, because the debt limit offers an opportunity to cut government in major ways that might not otherwise be politically possible. God bless the Tea-GOP!
There is, of course, an alternative view of Mr. Obama, repeated nightly by Lawrence O’Donnell, who seems to believe his portrait is more flattering. According to O’Donnell, Mr. Obama is not the economic Hooverite nor the incompetent negotiator, nor one willing to give away valuable public policy, as he appears to be. No, instead, Mr. Obama is a highly skilled liar, who has not only misled the American people with every public statement over two years about his willingness to bargain away Social Security and Medicare benefits, but has persistently negotiated in bad faith with the Republicans, a more sinister version of Mr. Jello.
The most recent breakdown, O’Donnell insists, when Mr. Obama raised the tax increase target after the Gang Of Six (all of whom would have agreed with Hoover) put Obama to the right of Senators Crapo, Chambliss and Coburn, is explained as a calculated tactic to move the goal posts just beyond where John Boehner could reach while his chest is wired with Tea explosives.
So take your pick. The White House is now occupied by a man who agrees with Herbert Hoover’s economics and is clueless about everything we learned about macroeconomics during or since the Great Depression, and he can’t be trusted with the family jewels . . . Or he should be supported because he’s a cynical liar who is willing to misinform the public, negotiate in bad faith, and mouth economic gibberish just to fool people.
The country needs another choice.



116 Comments

Um, Scarecrow, these guys in this junta make dear old Herbert look like Mary Poppins. This is a classic Shock Doctrine scenario, and the Shock Doctrine was coined by Naiomi Klein first of all in her epic article observing what was happening in Baghdad when US forces invaded – I think the article was called “Baghdad Ground Zero” – something like that. A shining light in the midst of that horrible time, an article that spread like wildfire.
What you do if you believe this stuff is, you DESTROY in order to rebuild. I don’t think HH was out to destroy the American system. That’s the difference; we now have had in place a new system since HH did what he did to help us into depression. The system may need some fine tuning. What it doesn’t need is to be deliberately made weaker, and these guys have been systematically and deliberately destroying that system, much as Baghdad was destroyed by US invading forces.
I think even Herbert Hoover, like Reagan, would be rolling over in his no doubt finely manicured grave at what these people are intending to do to this country.
If there are any honest men left in this government, and there do seem to be a few, now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of the COUNTRY.
How to avoid a depression ? Think happy thoughts and take lots of St. Johns Wort.
…and then put on your prettiest dress!
Recommended for showing some very strong historical parallels. However, I have more sympathy for Herbert Hoover. He really didn’t know what the hell to do. Nothing quite like the Great Depression had ever happened before, and he acted on what was considered the conventional economic wisdom of the time.
Obama, however, had the tried and tested model of FDR and the New Deal to fall back on. He chose Hooverism instead. To me, this means he is either a hopeless incompetent or a committed fascist. Take your pick.
May I recommend my diary over at Progressive Blue for a real alternative analysis?
http://www.progressiveblue.com/diary/6155/proposal-for-postcapitalist-organization
The guy is cyclepath for sure and no matter what kind of dress it is I just don’t look good:) but I get the drift.
I’m waiting for someone to explain how we can avoid an obama second term as well as a republican president.
There’s a meaningful difference between the two?
Thanks for this diary, Scarecrow. I couldn’t stand to listen to this bozo. I’m grateful that you did it so I won’t have to.
LOL! Believe it or not there is a *guy* around here who rides a bicycle in a skirt. Now all I can think of is O in cycling gear and and a short, sporty skirt! Ewww!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/22/obama-debt-ceiling-talks-boehner_n_907502.html
HuffPo — 7/22/2011 — by Jennifer Bendery, Ryan Grim, and Sam Stein
Obama: Debt Ceiling Talks Fell Apart, Boehner Walked Out
WASHINGTON — Social Security and Medicare may have been saved by the Tea Party’s refusal to accept President Barack Obama’s “grand bargain.”
—————–
Strange world we live in. Ever think you’d be happy for the T-OP critters?
Write someone in.
I’m writing in Sanders.
The only way we get better than two crappy choices is if we insist upon it.
“This debt would ‘weaken our economy, cause higher interest rates for families, and force us to scale back things like education and Medicare’ unless action was taken, Obama said.”
So we have to scale back Medicare so that we don’t have to scale back Medicare – Sorry, but your Jedi Mind Tricks don’t work on me.
My largest problem is the premise that what we have right now is a capitalist system. We don’t. We actually seem to be heading back towards 16th century mercantilism where there are “winners” and “losers” and exploitation is the name of the game.
Perhaps Mr. Obama should listen to Winston Churchill among others who have said, “Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.” How can someone supposedly so “smart” be so “dumb?”
That “credit card” and “family comparison” framing just drives me bonkers.
All DC knows better; it’s just a way to sell it to the rubes, and the only thing you can do is fight back with correct info when it comes up with people you know.
Just maddening to have to waste energy like that.
I’m not at all convinced that the cuts to SS and Medicare won’t be made just the same. Just about everyone in the negotiations want to do it. The question is whether to make a weak gesture at closing a tiny loophole for the marginally wealthy — maybe.
“To me, this means he is either a hopeless incompetent or a committed fascist. Take your pick.”
The two are not mutually exclusive.
Cue Arthur Silber
http://powerofnarrative.blogspot.com/2011/07/profiles-in-courage.html
Well I think there are ways to fight back within the argument and framework of the “family budget” construct.
First off you have to set the stage by suggesting a “family budget” wouldn’t have done what the government did to begin with back when Bush was in office. During a surplus the government didn’t “save” like a regular family might have done. Instead it “gave away” the savings.
Second you have to suggest that if you did manage to run a credit card up the solution to your problem is not to stop paying for rent and food to pay the card down.
So you can take the construct and turn it back and then point out that revenue from decent paying jobs is what needs to happen.
I’ve had some success explaining it this way anyway even while explaining that the average household does not have the ability to create its own money.
The upshot of Prisoner’s Dilemma writ large is about to ensue.
This is a good idea. Even if he doesn’t want to run, we should run him.
You’d think Obama would try something different at this point purely out of political self-interest, since nothing he’s been doing has worked. He must be really invested in the Hoover strategy.
Hey Beach, how goes it?
For the moment, we may have been serendipitously saved by TP intransigence, but who will save us tomorrow?
Obama has already screwed us royally by not only reinforcing the misconception that SS contributes to the debt, but also by successfully created a bogus link between SS and the debt ceiling.
The snake-in-the-grass has created a template for all future debt ceiling battles whereby SS will be viewed as a legitimate target up front and focused on to the exclusion of the real budget busters.
Sooner or later, he or his successor will succeed.
…and how he thinks he represents the MOTU and the Tea Party “patriot” types.
I’ve asked this on another thread, but I didn’t get an answer.
In the ‘follow the money’ mode: The corporatists own Grover N and Grover N owns the Republicans. If the asset owning 1% did not want an economic meltdown, all they’d have to do is tell Grover to speak to the pawns. Wouldn’t it be wiser for Obama to not blink — to let Grover do whatever he’s going to be told to do? Obama throwing good money after bad is not going to help anyone.
But as I commented, I’m a chronic naif.
It’s cuts to Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid or bust for Obama. Who would even listen to this lying bullsh*t artist? He’s gone delusional and is completely obsessed with delivering the country to Wall Sreet and Corporate thieves.
In 1932 the Federal governments spending accounted for perhaps 5% of GDP. Today that number is 25% but has averaged around 19% since the early 50′s. The most important aspect of this recent 6% spike in spending is how little it did. At best the spending can be said to have prevented further shrinkage or deflation of the economy but let’s not pretend it brought growth.
I know it is seductive to base ones understanding on what is past and in this case the past dating to FDR inauguration in 1933. But look at those numbers above. The ‘stimulative’ effects of government spending have been spent or to put it another way their power has been greatly reduced.
Of course the government spending has another side and that is the borrowing to fund it. It is here that the reality of how and why government spending worked. For except for a new or external source of cash capital the only way the system grows is through the expansion of credit. In the Depression and all recessions their mother and father is always a contraction of credit. It is the government borrowing and then spending, when the household and business sectors can’t or won’t, spurs growth.
So why does this work so poorly now? Because the entire system is choked with debt. Government debt is perhaps only 25% of total debt so don’t confuse me here. It isn’t that government debt is too much it is that debt in all sectors is too much. The simple fact here is that debt, all kinds, have been producing less and less growth for perhaps 50 years. When $1 is credit used to produce 90 cents in growth currently each dollar of debt now produces a few pennies in ‘growth’. (I put growth in quotes because the entire concept of GDP growth is flawed perhaps but that argument falls totally outside the reach of the political sphere)
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_YtR64k69FHM/S6zQR0VlQUI/AAAAAAAAAcI/WKl5jjQY1sw/s1600/Return+On+Debt.jpg
This chart tells the tale of the diminishing return on each new dollar of credit. The numbers are easily gleaned from the Treasuries quarterly Z1 Flow of Funds report. Which simply enumerates the total of credit in the system and the growth.
The political fight to preserve the legacy from the 30′s on in terms of the world that existed in the past is easy, and doomed.
We probably can’t avoid an Obama second term as well as a Republican president.
But the sad truth is that the only difference between President George W. Bush, President Barack Obama and President Rick Perry will be in the rhetoric.
I don’t see any other real difference between Obama and whoever ends up being our next president come 2013, and I won’t be supporting either one of them.
I’m hoping that 2012 has lots of write ins.
The two parties suck. At the very least we scare the crap out of them. Maybe then they stop believing they can deliver the electorate to the oligarchy without actually having to listen to them.
Prosperity must be just around the corner! Happy Days are here again! Or maybe not?
Extremely well said in an extreme time of danger to the USA.
Thank you
Republicans are playing Russian Roulette with our nation, our economy, our children’s future, holding a gun to the head of Uncle Sam, but with a gun that is fully-loaded so the first blast will blow off the head of Uncle Sam…and President Obama and his administration keep bringing a knife to a Republican gunfight, all to show how post-partisan bi-partisan his administration can be, even helping Republicans by working with Republicans to load the gun they’re holding to Uncle Sam’s head. BAM!!! BAM!!! BAM!!! Uncle Sam dead. Democracy dead. America murdered.
And “the only way America will be taken down is from within”.
I think he knew something even then
Sanders announced on Hartman’s Friday show that he was looking into running as Obama’s challenger right now.
They have. and Grover mis-spoke, remember?. But even he sez the debt ceiling must be raised. I don’t think anybody’s is listening to anybody anymore. It’s just chest thumping going on now.
It is just amazing to me that the argument has not advanced one inch in 80 years. They insist that the fundamentals are strong and we are facing a temporary crisis of confidence when the corporations got scared and stopped spending their money.
The thing we have to do is to be very quiet and do everything we can to convince the corporations that it is going to be safe to come out of their holes and start doing business again. We must promise that there will be no new taxes, no new regulations, and whatever bad we did to them before we won’t do it any more. Maybe we will pay them some money in reparations.
This is a list of what the conservative democrats wrote up as a “bipartisan” Conservative Manifesto for FDR in 1937. The Gang of
Whatever Number could take it to a press conference and pass it off as something he wrote yesterday.
The point is that the President has an option of taking one of two sides here. He can say that we will get out of this by helping the people directly. Or he can say that we help the corporations and allow the forces of capitalism to help the people.
He has made his choice to help the corporations first. That way if it fails, at least we will have made sure that the important group is protected. It’s why during the housing collapse we bailed out the banks and let the homeowners sink. And its why whenever he is asked about unemployment, he changes the subject to the deficit.
He is not on our side. He is working for the other side, and will throw us under the bus if he has to, to save them.
Magnificent post, one for the ages, Scarecrow.
In the event that a charismatic, viable third party candidate does not appear in time, my plan at present is to write in Elizabeth Warren.
The corporatists own Barry and Dem Leadership as well. It’s almost as if you’re asking only a fraction of the question.
We’re seeing good cop – bad cop played out.
Democrats like Obama and Republicans are working hand-in-hand to get the desired outcome.
Obama didn’t fight for real health care and celebrated the passage of the gifts and giveaways to the insurance industry. He didn’t fight to end the Bush tax cuts, either. And now he’s leading the way to cutting Social Security and Medicare.
You expectation that he’s fighting for the American people that’s the problem.
The American people need to realize that it’s time to fight both Democrats like Obama and Republicans.
Fuck Obama, N Hoover too, for that matter.
N both parties . . .
Harumph.
Both Parties have been destroying the country. One may be a lil more guilty but that’s it.
And that’s in a nutshell CW, from Reagon n ’80 forward, easy as shit to see . . .
It gets repeated endlessly in this forum of FDL/MyFDL.
There is not a SINGLE long time reader of this forum who does NOT understand and get it.
So, like, ScareCrow . . . when do we all move from preaching to the choir to doing something?
Cuz really, I love this town, but it’s time to DO something ya know? A call to arms? Action in the streets? protests? boycotts?
As Mz. Hamsher said today, perhaps street action against corporations?
Where’s the danged clarion and leader?
And please Pups, no more of the action and leading is in us all, I tire of that meme too . . . gimme some action dammit!
When Bush wanted to privatize SS,a s tribe member said. “If W wants it, that’s good enough for me”
Now the Obamabots are saying the same thing ” If Obama wants it, it must be necessary”
They’ll gt it too.
I still think the end result is to turn the USA into a slave labor camp for when China finally gets their renewable energy act together and kicks out the multinationals. Then, they can come back here and do what they do best.
I give it about 5-6 years at most. That’s why they’re hurrying to fuck US so bad, both parties.
The Hoover Library notes:
“West Branch, where Herbert Hoover spent his first eleven years, practiced a strict Quaker morality. The Hoovers grew up within a sect that made its own affirmation of a rational, usable world. [The Quakers valued a blunt plainness. They believed that people will work well together, and that through rational discussion, compromise was possible.] They were dedicated to peace, and the belief that good common reason and strategic planning provide one with an uncluttered conscience.”
History will say that Hoover and Obama respected and compromised with the bankers and business moguls because they thought they were worthy people, deserving of respect.
FDR, however, knew a skunk, when he saw one, and treated it accordingly.
Banks Pay Back TARP Funds by. . .Borrowing From Treasury
http://pogo.ly/ebKYO4
Borrowing from the “Small Business Administration” if you can believe THAT!
The democrats, at this point, are about as real as a loved one buried and resurrected in Steven King’s “Pet Sematary.”
Herbert Hoover followed Calvin Coolidge into the WH — both were Republicans.
Conjuring up Herbert Hoover’s WH record to explain Barack Obama is at best misdirection while tending to be groundless linking.
Herbert Hoover actually was a decent American — read more about him. He did not have the benefit of the 75 years of events that followed his time in the WH to benefit from or shape a response to.
Barack Obama? Supposedly this “Democrat” is not a Republican. That is the myth anyway. The facts do not support this myth.
Barack Obama does have those 75 years of USA fiscal governance and government action(s) taken to base his views,acts and tactics on.
Why he is not doing so remains unknown. Your speculation is as good as mine. It is certain Barack Obama is working hard to undermine the fiscal governance/practice FDR brought to WashingtonDC and USA.
Over at Salon Joan Walsh is suggesting this is a Obama “win” –??
I am reducing my visits to Salon in view of this Walshian nonsense.
The USA is not a poor nation. The USA is a misled nation.
Barack Obama may have a winning smile but he is no FDR.Obama claims to like what Ronald Reagan did and was. Odd indeed coming from a Democrat who one would think would understand what Reaganism was — effective government is the problem and taxing for effective government is the next problem — Reagainism in 14 words.
Barack Obama is a fraud. A pretender.
He is ignoring 75 years of American tax/fiscal governance history as he drags the USA where Americans did not need to go and should not want to go.
Is Barack Obama telling us the truth? No.Abiding with the facts? No.
I despise people like Joan Walsh who would suggest he is a great Democrat and is getting “wins” for Democrats and Americans.
After what Barack Obama said during 2008 to get into the WH and then what he did/has done after Jan.20,2009 how can this be viewed as anything other than betray and deception?
Herbert Hoover was a decent man in difficult times.
Barack Obama is not a decent man and is ignoring what FDR(D) did or how FDR(D) did it.
I hope Barack Obama goes down in steep electoral defeat in Nov.2012.
Barack Obama’s record in the WH from warmaking,killing innocents for American Empire,overlooking and doing more torture is more Bush/Cheney with a Obama Brand on it.
Obama worked hard to deny Americans a valid Single Payer National HealthCare Plan.
POTUS Obama has been undermining good governance of Wall Street and Big Banking while letting Americans fall thru the cracks.
Barack Obama is trying to derelict SS and Medicare — look at what he does — not what he says. Who put in place this SS Payroll Taxes Remove? Who keeps bring SS to the chop block while keeping/leaving Pentagon,CIA and equitable wealth distribution off the chop block?
Barack Obama has earned his defeat in November 2012.
Give it to him.
He left out the part about NOT flying any more big cargo planes into Iraq carrying pallets-ful of $100 dollar bills…$6.6 billion of which disappeared with absolutely no accounting for them.
Nobody knows nozzing.
I know, that was during Bush’s custody of Operating Enduring Shitmire, but now, it’s Obama’s spinning plate, and it’s getting real tiresome hearing, first, the repubs, and now, our Mr. Progressive, rant about “wasteful government spending” while he’s pissing billions down the same bottomless urinal.
First, there ARE no honest men or women in this government. None. All are bought and corrupted, either before their erection of soon after.
Second. See First.
No hopes Jul . . . none, from within the system.
It’s fully corrupted top to bottom, city to fed. Just like Rome. just like USSR.
N that does not leave a lot to the imagination in regards to outcomes for it all . . .
Collapses of it’s own volition due to disregard to the masses.
Collapses cuz of mama nature (speeding right along thanks).
Collapses cuz the masses riot (not likely but growing fast).
Dat’s it gal. Dat’s it.
totally. I’ve pointed this out several time on HuffPO
Fuck, gimme merlot or give me death!
St. John’s wort . . . ptooi.
;-)
Bingo!
lol
Amen. A Righteous Rant.
Great post.
“Give it to him.”
I think we will. We’re the first to not want to committ political suicide by presenting him to the voters as the leader of the democratic party, but we’re not going to be the last.
He’s said that he’s willing to be a one-term preznint. If enough of say “no mas!”, I think he just might decide (with a little help from self-interested dem congers whom I believe will view his “coattails” as being slathered with the Ebola Virus) to hit the lucrative “centrist think-tank” trail.
Can’t happen. Either Shilary runs as the Dim cuz Obama gets dumped by the party, or Jeb runs and beats anyone who opposes.
’12 is gonna be fugly, no matter how we slice it.
We are in for 4 or 8 years more of cuts, blows, n depravity for us all . . . especially for those of us masses who need help the most.
Aside from Soylent Green, I have NO idea what this system is gonna do with the increasing masses of bodies strewn in ti’s landscape.
But the body count is gonna start to escalate rapidly. N that’s beyond what mama nature is gonna hand us and IS handing us. Now. The heat.
Yeah, I’m just not feeling well about it all today . . .
Maybe the webinar will help tomorrow.
Two GOP’s…one sliiightly to the right of the other one.
Lucky us!
Nothing’s been saved, that’s pure MSM ad dollar spin . . . I thot you were smarter n this . .
¥ep.
*clinky*
Obama is a liar. Period.
Hey John, who’s yer congress crit rep wise here?
Mine’s Matsui.
Wanna carpool (I’ll drive) and hit BOTH of ours Mon or tuesday? I’d love to meetcha, and team up n deliver some proggy shit on their doorsteps, just to see the reactions.
I won’t be able to do this for long, so next week is likely my window to do so. Maybe senator Mary can join us, n we can all 3 invade that fucker Lungren’s office?
I’m game, but my window to do so is narrow.
Yer thots? Mary has my phone and email addy . . . danged bout time I metcha and did something methinks.
I blame that Hamsher woman and that Kelly dude . . .fully, for this desperation. ;-)
Higher interest rates? Where are these higher interest rates for government borrowing of which Hoover Obama speaks? Rates on treasuries are running close to historic lows. Right now the US can use 10 year treasuries to borrow at less than 3 percent. Seems to me that there are a lot of very productive things that can be done with money borrowed at under 3 percent which are quite likely to bring a long term return far in excess of the cost of borrowing.
Also, Obama says “We need an approach that makes some serious cuts to worthy programs.” He says that as though it is self-evident. It is not. Obama should have to explain why we must cut worthy programs in light of the continuing Bush (now Obama) tax cuts, the permanent reduction of the estate tax, preferred treatment for cap gains and especially in light of the fact that reducing unemployment by putting people back to work in good paying jobs would be the first rational step.
Obama seems to be saying that cuts are good for their own sake. If that’s the case, the first thing I’d like to cut is his presidency. The man is a disaster not just for the Democratic Party but for the great mass of working class, middle class and poor Americans.
OMG! (Obama Must Go!)
TAN!!!!
lol
Here we go, get ‘em Tan . . .
I was bout to quit the puter n put in a dobro vid lesson.
Maybe I’ll stick around if you are . . .*G*
“OMG! (Obama Must Go!)”
Yes, indeed.
The minute they settle the debt kabuki with false issues that benefit the oligarchy, Obama is finished.
My guess, given what I read from Dayen, Walker n Hamsher in this forum, is that moment is just a shot away (Merry Clayton, greatest backup vocals ever to rock music).
N sadly, the rumbles from Good Pups that Shilary might be injected into the mix and the Dims Dump Obama, scares me.
But then, the R’s counter with Jeb Shrub.
N he wins.
Anyone wanna game this one with me? Vitrual merlot to bet?
Hmmm?
Joan Walsh swallows toads at Obama’s command – however, outside of Toady, there’s Greenwald and other good things at Salon.
Merry Clayton, the voice in the back on Gimme Shelter, from the Rolling Stones original lp, et It Bleed, ’69!
. . . she toured with them for a while, this was ’70′s. I got to see her, and them, ’76 I think. SF Opera House . . . . or Community Civic Center? Or they are one and the same? Forgit.
Old school, n the best. Ian Whitney AND Nicky Hopkins (Quicksilver Messenger Service Shady Grove album) on keys.
Bobby Keys sax with horns.
The Boys . . . n that kid they had to replace the dead Brian Jones . . . Mic Taylor.
Epic.
OT as all hayall . . . sorry SC . . .
Perry is up next, bottom of the 9th, bases loaded, then Jeb. Bet’s on
I am writing Howard Dean in on the primary.
Sanders, whom I support, does not have major party backing, and Elizabeth Warren has no experience. But if she takes The Lion’s seat, she’ll get up to speed pretty quickly.
Larue, I’ve been saying that if Obama’s poll numbers get down into the 30′s there’s a decent (indecent?) chance that Hillary will bail out of State to run at him.
But I go back and forth on the possibility. Too many progressives remember her “savvy” idea that the path to the white house was via smooching rightwing ass. Also, there are enough diehard Obama-ists who would view her running as a stab in the back, who would be stone-cold against her. it WOULD be a stab in the back, after he re-habbed her into State (and then he resuscitated the entire GOP, for good measure…) but at this point, seeing him hoisted on his petard, is not…objectionable, to me.
But Hillary is political suicide, as much as Obama. She has the same problems with democrats and independents, and the repubs cordially loathe her, and always will.
She may or may not have the thigh-sweats for another run, especially, as I believe, if Obama is tanking, but I think there will be enough real friends to tell her it would be a horrible mistake, to keep her from doing it. I sure hope so.
I agree that nothing has been saved for sure. However, the HP story used the term “may have been saved”, which at the moment is true. But the real issue is the idea that we are so far through the looking glass that there is a possibility that the Tea Party types will become the inadvertent saviors — at least temporarily — of SSMM.
We are heading into chaos, is what we’re doing. And I aint talking about the deficit shit. That’s just one of the symptoms of how badly Obama has screwed the pooch, after an historic win and a golden opportunity.
And them come to Seattle and make out with me!
We have to destroy Medicare village in order to save it!
—President Barack William Westmoreland Obama
(No, it wasn’t really Westmoreland who said the original [it was likely either Major Phil Canella or Major Chester Brown], but let’s just say that sort of thinking was reflected in his policies.)
What’s truly vile is that it takes something many people blame themselves for (“I spent too much and now I’m in trouble…I’m a bad, bad man, I’d be better off killing myself for the insurance”) and applies that framing to the problems of the national government, thus blaming US for the “debt crisis” as well as our personal failures.
When the truth is that the expansion of credit was used by the elites to cover the transfer of wealth from the working class to the rentiers, so the average citizen’s overextension isn’t so much about “spoiled Americans spend too much” as it is about “America has less income equality than Cote d’Ivoire”. But as long as the wealth parasites’ Corporate Media continues to blame us for their depredations, why not double down and blame us for what’s happening in DC as well?
Bastards. Fucking bastards.
I think we’re heading back toward Feudalism with big corps and very rich like the Kochs as the feudal lords.
Don’t back Dean; his economic ideas are archaic and he’ll never pass Medicare for All.
Wow. That is the key and explains so much.
Peak GNP in 2015. Confirmation that Keynesianism (and capitalism) is dead. Why is this not common knowledge?
And among those who support Obama, how many cynically understand this situation?
Now wonder the media is absent the truth.
That is an apocalypse.
Obviously we should not support Sanders or any other challenger to Obama, because he/she will be declared unelectable.
That is how we got Obama in the first place — searching for a candidate that will be declared electable by the mainstream media.
I still remember the debates on Firedoglake in 2007 and 2008, when raising issues like Obama’s voting record (which was abysimal – there was no war funding bill he did not like,) his abandonment of Ned Lamont the Democratic party candidate in favor of Leiberman in 2006 was declared off limits in this very forum.
Kucinich was widely vilified here, at this very website. I fear if Sanders runs, the same fate very likely awaits him, or any other liberal that has the guts to stand up to the establishment.
Yes I would like to see an true liberal representing the Democratic party. But I do not see that happening until every family in America has somebody close who is jobless, and the hungry and homeless start lining the street once again. No Americans are still too comfortable, and of course they can be distracted by the circus on the TV, internet and video games.
It’s bad to put forth that comparison, because it endorses the view that the Federal Government can run out of money; which is at the root of our problems with the deficit hawks like Obama. Not only can’t the Government run out of money unless it deliberately causes that to happen; but the debt ceiling crisis can be ended by the President at any time with proof platinum coin seigniorage:
http://my.firedoglake.com/letsgetitdone/2011/07/20/beyond-the-debt-ceiling-the-30-trillion-plan-for-ending-borrowing-and-the-national-debt/
http://my.firedoglake.com/letsgetitdone/2011/07/18/why-matt-yglesias-and-felix-salmon-are-wrong-about-a-legal-way-to-circumvent-the-debt-ceiling-impasse/
http://my.firedoglake.com/letsgetitdone/2011/07/11/coin-seigniorage-the-debt-limit-and-the-presidents-duty/
I always fail to see what’s so great about these “wins” the O-bots are so excited about. “He made Boehner look silly and everyone realizes he’s the one who’s intelligent/an adult/trying to do the right thing.”
Well, pardon my language, but seriously…who gives a fuck? It’s as though these people forget that there’s a country to run, getting all caught up in the Public Relations score-keeping. How do Obama’s policies improve the situation? (Answer: they don’t. Even if he gets a clean debt ceiling raise now [which he's shown no indication of being interested in], it’s at the cost of setting tons of bad precedents [SS is an "entitlement"; SS/MM are on the table; any debt reduction should come primarily from cuts in spending; every debt ceiling bill is a legitimate opportunity for "hostage-taking"; Obama is open to extending the Bush tax giveaways yet again, etc., etc.])
Even if Walsh is 100% right, this wouldn’t be a “win”. And she’s about 90% wrong, as far as I can tell.
And as I once said elsewhere:
“Hoover went a little crazy, what with the decline from ‘saved millions from starvation’ to ‘authorized American troops to shoot American citizens’, but he was basically a good man gone wrong. Obama is Evil. He wants us to suffer and he’s enjoying every second of it.”
Every time I make a “Hoover” reference wrt this tool, I feel I should apologize to Hoover’s family for the comparison.
You nailed it.
Still, Joan’s shilling is so audacious it can be good for a few laffs, especially the way commenters lay into her.
Glenn is the diamondin the rough at Salon and pretty much justifies its existence.
What do you mean by a viable candidate. One who will stand up to the establishment like FDR and do something, or somebody who has been blessed by the mainstream media. If the latter, then dream on. The American people have to see beyond what the media feeds them.
Obama’s actions were entirely predictable given his record. But he had been declared a progressive and electable by the MSM. Also, like most politicians he has a pretty turn of phrase, and can be very charming. However, voting records in critical votes do not lie. Past history of actions does not lie. But those were not allowed to be discussed.
Rapier. That’s not why. The reason is that the requirements for a full employment deficit have changed. Government deficit spending must compensate for demand leakage to savings and imports to have full employment. Right now, those would be at 10% of GDP total, if the Government closed that gap with 1.4 T high fiscal multiplier deficit spending. This year the deficit will be under that amount, and it won’t be as high multiplier as needed because a lot of it will be caused by tax cuts for the wealthy still in place.
As for Government debt, it’s not really debt in the same way that your debts and my debts are debts. See: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/03/27/960786/-Is-the-Debt-Held-By-the-Public-Really-Debt?via=history
Anyway, a sharp increase in Government “deficit” spending is what we need right now. If that spending is targeted at the poor and the middle class it will begin to repair their balance sheets and reduce the amount of private debt. That spending doesn’t have to be financed by debt. The Government can use coin seigniorage if Congress will appropriate the spending, to do the spending without having to float anymore debt. See: http://my.firedoglake.com/letsgetitdone/2011/07/20/beyond-the-debt-ceiling-the-30-trillion-plan-for-ending-borrowing-and-the-national-debt/
What may I ask is the difference between the two?
As History shows, when the people have to choose between a Real Republican and a Democrat/Republican, they always choose the Real Republican.
Which I guess answers “lordgoogoo” question, well the first part anyways. Think with a 2 party system there is No answer to the second part.
What if they had an Election and No One came?
I am shooting for the lowest turnout in History.
This just might send a message and just maybe wake some people up to the fact there is No Difference.
Just maybe a Boycott is the answer.
First, a little FDL history, obscure though it may be:
http://my.firedoglake.com/letsgetitdone/2010/06/13/definitely-hoover/
Next, this was beautifully done:
Very true. But in the meantime we really have to refute this:
And you’ve not really done that in this diary, which is too bad!
I don’t think she’ll run and if she did she’d have some problems with the base because of Iraq, Afghanistan, and Libya.
They’re the elephant in the room.
Mind you I’d choose Hillary over Obama in a heartbeat. Her domestic policy was way better than his and she actually has veracity with me when she said she was for universal care(she wanted it back when Bill was in office)
I think they’d love the idea that they’ve made the country apathetic enough to not fight any longer.
I’m the opposite of you. I want a record turnout with lots of write in votes for something other than the GOp or Democratic party.
I think Sen. Sanders is a great bet as he is one of the few Senators with the balls to speak out against the President’s fascist ideas. If all the progressive blogs unified behind Bernie we could at least make a fair showing of it.
It sure beats reelecting Obama! And btw Rapier, Keynsianism is not dead — the first action President Obama did that started me thinking I had accidentally voted for a republican was his cave on tax breaks in the so-called stimulus and not near enough infrastructure spending!
Did she smooch Murdoch’s ass?
For all this idiocy and destruction, America is going to reward Obama with a second term?
The history of all hitherto existing societies is the history of class struggles.
The left had best rediscover Marx quickly, or otherwise it is ideologically disarmed.
And these maniacs have no compunction about rolling tanks over mountains of skulls, of starving tens of millions, or irradiating the planet, if need be.
Re the question of Obama: his political resemblance to George W. Bush is not accidental. Both were/are puppets, spokespersons, executives working on behalf of the corporate elite. Obama is nothing other than that. The politician kabuki in Washington is maybe good fodder for cable news (Gang of Six! SuperCongress!), but it is all the same to those of us in America who will suffer their attack upon our livelihoods and our families. It is the politics of spectacle, meant to divert.
Great point. If we’re starting out fresh, may as well pick our ideal candidate. We don’t have to settle. And we shouldn’t concern ourselves to much with electibility. That’s how we end up with these unprincipled pieces of shit in the first place. We vote for candidates with strong chins or pretty smiles, instead of focusing on the ideas.
Indeed. Great posts.
Agreed. Obama doesn’t believe in anything he says. His job is to hoodwink the electorate while promoting policies to benefit the wealthy oligarchs. There’s no mystery here.
Block Italics are practically unreadable.
http://webstyleguide.com/wsg3/8-typography/5-typographic-emphasis.html
I’m on a one-man campaign to improve the readability of Firedoglake by ELIMINATING BLOCK QUOTES OF ITALICS. Please. From a former journalist who took typography in J-school and actually remembered some of it.
Italics
Italicized text attracts the eye because it contrasts in shape from body text. Use italics for convention—for example, when listing book or magazine titles—or within text for stressed or foreign words and phrases. Avoid setting large blocks of text in italics because the readability of italicized text, particularly at screen resolutions, is much lower than in comparably sized roman (“plain”) text.
I can’t make heads or tales of the first paragraph but if government debt is different in some fundamental way from all others, which is probably a good topic for several lifetimes of fun, the way that the credit given to the government by lenders to the Treasury works exactly the same as all other credit. That being it creates demand.
Again the defining input which determines GDP growth is the amount of new credit in the system. If total credit is expanding the economy expands. In the past a decline in total credit defined recessions and the business cycle but since perhaps 88 any decline in total credit promised depression because in Ponzi fashion so much debt required new borrowing to service it.
The housing bubble was a mortgage bubble which as a credit bubble. The stupendous expansion in mortgage credit was the driver of the 01 to 07 ‘recovery’. Keeping in mind the chart that shows ever more dollars of credit is necessary to bring a dollar of GDP growth. Which is why despite the huge expansion in credit in the household and financial sectors it as necessary for the government to borrow ever more heavily too. Then when credit growth actually went negative in08 the government had to step in and triple borrowing to the mid one trillions.
Such borrowing remains a systematic imperative. As everyone will soon find out. Since government borrowing is now over 10% of GDP if that borrowing stops then the GDP will decline approximately 10%. That won’t be achieved because it is suicide.
“For all this idiocy and destruction, America is going to award Obama with a second term.”
THAT is the question, Erik, and it’s starting to pop up with alarming frequency if you’re still an Obama loyalist.
I think that one way to possibly avoid 1929 redux is for Obama to do a Zell Miller and announce that he’s switching parties, and will run as a republican in 2012. If the GOP welcomed him, the vacuum created for democrats might be advantageous, IF we could find a real progressive with the courage to make real changes, to fill it.
:o)
“We’re seeing good cop/bad cop played out.”
Spot. On.
But there’s a problem for the “good cops” if they keep pointing to the “bad cops” and shreiking:
“You HAVE to vote for us! They’re even worse!”
It didn’t work for shit in the mid-terms, when Obama’s name wasn’t even on the ballot, and in 2012, when his name will probably be there, it will be even easier for the republicans to make political hay out of the chaos-vacuum which Obama has created.
I’m sure the sarcasm meter is pegged on this comment. Or is it.
Keynesianism isn’t dead but then the term is misunderstood. My comments about the absolutely defining role of credit growth is pure Keynes. Keynesianism refers to a subset of this fact, that government borrowing can be used as a substitute for stagnant or declining borrowing in other sectors.
The ideological question has always been, at heart, if government borrowing is appropriate. Keynes recommended that governments borrow counter counter cyclically. There is no possible doubt that in fact government borrowing, and spending, creates demand and GDP growth higher than would otherwise be. The thing is as ideology hardened and Keynes became a pejorative and his recommendation that governments borrow, a ligit political question still, became all confused with the basic irrefutable fact that government borrowing creates demand and more economic activity. To say that Keynesianism has failed is to throw the entire edifice of economics out the window.
(My critique which is that there is simply too much debt extant does not reject Keynes so much as saying that all things have limits. Maybe total system credit can rise from 300% of GDP to 1000% but I don’t think so.)
Sarcasm?
“Kynesianism [is] government borrowing can be used as a substitute for stagnant or declining borrowing in other sectors.”
Rather, Keynsianism is the government provision of credit when private creditors lose confidence. When it appeals, the creditors are happy to have the risk made public, the public is happy it doesn’t starve, and capitalists are happy to “experiment” with the cash.
But if there is a general decline in rate of profit, the risk of systemic failure rises, and a rentier use of capital is preferred.
The “propriety” under question was always: the government is not able to do better than private creditors and … it should not be given the chance to show it can. If the general rate of profit crashes, neither private credit (collectively) nor government credit can produce profit and enhance welfare. Then government spending can still produce demand but no profit. And then capital would rather pursue feudalism, privately, than allow the government to go communal.
Debt surfeit is, I think, a symptom of the declining rate of profit, not it’s cause. But that argument, or the debate as to whether sociology or geology are the causes, is secondary to the consequences of the crash of profit.
Good grief, of course I mean the first thing you mention! My idea of a viable candidate is not only that, but someone who is beholden to neither party. I saw through obama pretty early on and knew that he was capable of little more than speechifyin’.
LOL!
And having winners and losers in the game of exploitation is different from capitalism, how?
I think you just described “Monopoly,” by Parker Bros., dude.
Thank you.
The major parties are totally bought and paid for. They are hopeless. At least one of them has to go the way of the Federalists and the Whigs. It’s the only way.
Government debt IS different in very fundamental ways from all others. For one thing, the government makes the money. For another, the government’s currency, and credit, are based on faith.
Yeah, that’s right. Faith. So long as people believe that the currency is worth something, it is. So long as people believe the government will eventually repay current and past debts, it will.
Look at what Brazil did in changing its currency just a few years ago. Classic. It worked, too. Because Brazilians really, really WANTED it to.
Economics is not a hard science. It is a social science, no more grounded in physics or chemistry than history, political science, or philosophy is. Or, for that matter, psychology. To pretend otherwise is illusion.
And our oligarchy sure did pretend otherwise, didn’t they? The housing bubble, TARP, all the bailouts. Faith that the markets would regulate THEMSELVES! A totally insane proposition.
Our ruling class has embraced a completely irrational faith in the power of the free market, and, when it doesn’t work, they want the rest of us to pay for it so they don’t have to. First, TARP. Then extend their tax cuts. Now, loot Social Security and Medicare.
They’re stupid. They’re triggering their own destruction.
“America does not have two political parties. It has one, with two right wings.”
–Gore Vidal
Agreed with the whole reply. And kudos for pointing out that Hoover was a decent man as far as American presidents go. He didn’t know what the hell to do about the Great Depression; it was, after all, unprecedented, and he listened to the “experts” of his time.
They were wrong and so was he. But Hoover wasn’t VICIOUS. Obama appears to be vicious in his determination to serve his corporate masters while appearing appealing to the rubes. Sounds familiar…oh yeah! Reagan! Obama said he admired Reagan. Yeah, we can all see why now, can’t we?
But who did Harry Truman call when he needed someone to make sure the Marshal Plan got relief to those who most needed it first? Only the best administrator of his age, Herbert Hoover. Who did a magnificent job. He probably saved several million lives.
After Obama goes down as the most disastrous con artist in American history, think anyone will hire him to administer anything?
Yes, get even a combined “other” to 10% and that would start shaking things up. Especially if Obama loses because of it.
I agree. But I don’t see any little italics icon I can click on. I do see the CAPS key. Can you tell me how to reply with italics?
Marshall Auerback at the UMKC blog – Worse than Hoover