More important, I think, were reactions from those with different views on how the actions of the United States in killing an American Islamic cleric in Yemen would play out in the never ending Terror War.
The Times notes that military authorities are celebrating the killing, since, they believe, the cleric had reportedly become an al Qaeda operative in Yemen, and his statements were cited as an inspiration — that’s constitutionally protected speech, by the way — to others who later carried out killings or attempted bombings in the US and elsewhere:
Mr. Awlaki’s name has been associated with many plots in the United States and elsewhere after individuals planning violence were drawn to his engaging lectures broadcast over the Internet.
Those individuals included Major Hasan, the Army psychiatrist charged in the shootings at Fort Hood in which 13 people were killed; the young men who planned to attack Fort Dix, N.J.; and a 21-year-old British student who told the police she stabbed a member of Parliament after watching 100 hours of Awlaki videos.
But I think this reaction is even more telling:
A senior American military official in Washington said Mr. Awlaki’s death will send an important message to the surviving leaders and foot soldiers in Al Qaeda, both in Yemen and elsewhere. “It’s critically important,” the senior official said. “It sets a sense of doom for the rest of them. Getting Awlaki, given his tight operational security, increases the sense of fear. It’s hard for them to attack when they’re trying to protect their own back side.”
Maybe, but this strikes me as the same argument we use to describe how terrorism works. The strategy of the terrorist, we’ve been repeatedly told, is to terrorize, to strike fear in the enemy’s hearts, to immobilize the enemy through fear. So who is the enemy and who is the terrorist in this conversation?
How will those in the Islamic world view the US actions? We don’t have reactions from governments yet, but I assume reactions will vary from relief to bewilderment to concern to horror to rage. And I expect some to agree with this:
But some Islamist figures said Mr. Awlaki’s status could be elevated to that of a martyr. Anjem Choudhury, an outspoken Islamic scholar in London, said: “The death of Sheikh Anwar al-Awlaki will merely motivate the Muslim youth to struggle harder against the enemies of Islam and Muslims.” He added: “I would say his death has made him more popular.”
Which Bush era military commander asked whether we are creating more “terrorists” than we’re killing? Bush?
As Glenn Greenwald notes, we’ve been conditioned to accept the fact that the President of the United States can order US forces to carry out an “extra-judicial killing,” which we used to call “assassination,” with zero due process. And it doesn’t matter whether the assassination target is or isn’t a US citizen.
This target was supposedly an al Qaeda “operative.” But the US military has killed hundreds or thousands of people in Iraq, Pakistan and Afghanistan and elsewhere who were not Al Qaeda operatives. The primary targets may have been fighting US forces in their countries, but which nation’s citizens would not do the same? Although the President might not attempt such a crime on US soil, for fear it would violate the Constitution and the many US laws against murder, the signal to the rest of the world is that such legal niceties do not apply if the intended target is on some other country’s soil.
The inescapable conclusion is that the rest of the world is becoming America’s “free fire zone,” and the President, this government, and perhaps too many of the American people think it’s not only okay but something to celebrate when we behave exactly like the terrorists we supposedly abhor.
The US military is the greatest military force the world has ever known. But that means that when commanded by civilian leaders with little regard for the rule of law, it can also become the most dangerous terrorist state the world has ever known.
“We have met the enemy, and he is us.” — Pogo
More: Our friend Spencer Ackerman picks up on the “was it legal” debate.
Always prescient commenter powwow reminds us a federal judge ducked the legal question on a suit brought by an Awlaki family member:
CCR and the ACLU filed suit against the Department of Treasury and OFAC on August 3, 2010 and filed suit on behalf of Nasser Al-Aulaqi against President Obama, CIA Director Panetta, and Defense Secretary Gates, on August 30, 2010. Both cases were filed in the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia. On December 7, 2010, U.S. District Court Judge Bates dismissed the suit of Al-Aulaqi v. Obama on grounds that Nasser Al-Aulaqi did not have legal standing to challenge the targeting of his son, and that the case raised “political questions” not subject to court review. The court did not rule on the merits of the case.
David Dayen has more reactions here.




142 Comments

What I don’t get is this: if we can morally kill people anywhere we want to, why can’t other people morally kill us whatever way they can?
Here’s a clue.
masaccio . . . well, as Chris Matthews would say, as though it’s an answer and not a slogan, “American exceptionalism!”
And all in our life times, Kathryn.
“As Glenn Greenwald notes, we’ve been conditioned to accept the fact that the President of the United States can order US forces to carry out an “extra-judicial killing,” which we used to call “assassination,” with zero due process.”
I haven’t yet read the Greenwald link (thanks)but I would say, no, we haven’t been conditioned – 2010 nonvote is proof of that, and further proof will be seen in 2012. Also see all the occupations expanding round the country. Voting for this? The ranks of the conditioned are fast shrinking. Melting, really. What a world, what a world.
[As] Chris Matthews [and many other worshippers of power] would say…“American exceptionalism!”
Which, of course, is the functional equivalent of declaring the United States of America The Master
RaceNation, with all the accompanying evil that such a self-deluding sense of superiority and entitlement inevitably breeds, when left unchecked and internally-uncontradicted.[As federal district Judge John Bates deliberately left unchecked the Executive Branch, when he was formally asked by an Al-Awlaki family member, through "proper" legal channels more than a year ago, to force our President to justify his intent to kill this American citizen, which Bates, in response, refused to do.]
Ah, good to be reminded that our courts had a chance to apply the law and chose not to. Wonder what Bates is thnking, never mind the family.
I was at MSNBC reading the comments, about 99% rah-rahing the assassination of an American Citizen.
Here’s what I said…
“What a collection of vicious rabble I’ve been reading, You’re no better than rabid dogs.
This man was an American CITIZEN. So that’s how we treat our fellow citizens eh?
No trial, just summarily execute them, just like the Nazis did, just pull a gun and shoot them in the head.
You might be next, encouraging this kind of monstrosity empowers those that would make it “acceptable”.
This is a country of LAWS, not men.
Well it used to be, but judging by the frothing at the mouth cretins I’ve read here, maybe not. You people are despicable.”
Link: http://world-news.newsvine.com/_news/2011/09/30/8061708-born-in-us-al-awlaki-was-his-birth-nations-sworn-enemy?pc=25&sp=25#discussion_nav
This statement seems all wrong.
“…this strikes me as the same argument we use to describe how terrorism works. The strategy of the terrorist, we’ve been repeatedly told, is to terrorize, to strike fear in the enemy’s hearts, to immobilize the enemy through fear. So who is the enemy and who is the terrorist in this conversation?”
No, that is the strategy of war, not the strategy of terrorism. Terrorism focuses on civilians. This man is a recognized officer in an army at war with the US. As for the notion that
“The Times notes that military authorities are celebrating the killing, since, they believe, the cleric had reportedly become an al Qaeda operative in Yemen, and his statements were cited as an inspiration — that’s constitutionally protected speech, by the way — to others who later carried out killings or attempted bombings in the US and elsewhere:”
I’m pretty certain that falsely shouting “fire” in a crowded theater is not constitutionally protected speech. And I’m pretty clear that advocating war against the United States amounts to both a renunciation of citizenship and a declaration of war.
In short, yes, it is concerning if the US government assassinates a US citizen for engaging in constitutionally protected speech, but so far I’ve seen no reason to think it did that.
You know, citizenship is a matter of law, but it is also a matter of poetry. If you look at the totality of the situation this seems very far from a killing of a US citizen who was simply voicing an opinion. I can imagine borderline cases where the government oversteps, but this doesn’t seem like one.
That report is depressing.
Man, my blood BOILED at the wicked responses!
“when we behave exactly like the terrorists we supposedly abhor”
I don’t see the moral equivalence between blowing up office buildings full of civilians, women and children vs. killing the person who’s planning and encouraging such destruction.
You’ve equated yelling fire in a crowded theater, which would induce an immediate panic, and calling for armed struggle against a nation you despise, which may or may not lead to anything, and even if it did, that can still be protected speech. The former is not protected, the latter is. So which are we dealing with here? That’s what courts are for to determine.
As for the terror definition, the quote from the senior official is directed not at the man they reportedly killed but at others, including some who may or may not consider joining the cause or those, who though sympathetic to the grievances, may or may not be considering acting on their grievances.
The answer is really quite simple. When you stop accepting the “patriot’s version of US and world history”.
Proof?
Where is the proof, alan1tx?
Governmental assertion is NOT proof, you do knows that, correct?
Do you give a rat’s ass?
Do you care about the Rule of Law, or do you just “do” jingoistic knee-jerking?
Pathetic …
How about using drones to bomb a residential area, knowing there are likely to be innocents in the area who may be killed. Of course there’s a difference between deliberate mass killings and taking out a single target, but when the number of people killed as collateral damage start to add up into the hundred, then thousands, these moral arguments become less convincing.
“What I don’t get is this: if we can morally kill people WHO HAVE WAGED WAR ON US AND THREATENED TO KILL INNOCENT CIVILIANS, anywhere we want to, why can’t other people morally kill us whatever way they can? OH WAIT, THAT SOUNDS STUPID, DOESN’T IT? OF COURSE WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO PROTECT OURSELVES”.
There, fixed it for you.
So, DWB, are you pissed because this guy was born in the US? Or do you actually require that every member of the enemy’s forces met on a battlefield be tried and proven guilty before punishment is handed out?
Because I am pretty damn sure I never saw those scenes in any old John Wayne WWII movies.
Scarecrow, I think you’re a bit over the top on this one. We need to know more about exactly what the man was doing, whether it was “protected” speech would seem to be a big question here, for the time being. I am concerned about the other issues involved, and deplore that the WH is stonewalling so far on giving out info, but it seems to me that you are assuming that only protected speech was involved, and that may be in doubt.
Happy, peddle your weak-tea shit elsewhere.
The Rule of Law!
Just wow. OK, do the Obama Administration officials involved in the planning and execution of this crime understand the lottery ticket they just bought?
There is no statute of limitations on murder. They have just bet their lives that for the remainder of their days, no future Attorney General will walk into a grand jury room and read it 18 USC 1119 “Foreign murder of United States nationals”. Ha ha, no worries, ts not like the Republicans will ever win power again. Morons. Pro tip: when you lawyer up, let counsel know Awlaki had 5 young children, all US citizens as well. For your sake, I hope none of them were around when their pops got whacked, juries really are pretty biased against baby killers.
18 USC 1119(b)
A person who, being a national of the United States, kills or attempts to kill a national of the United States while such national is outside the United States but within the jurisdiction of another country shall be punished as provided under sections 1111 [Murder], 1112 [Manslaughter], and 1113 [Attempted murder].
So, old John Wayne WWII movies are your source for understanding the constitutional rights afforded US citizens?
That sort of explains a few things I guess.
Re: “The US military is the greatest military force the world has ever known.”
Malarkey. The US military cannot even defeat a group of ragtag upstarts in Afghanistan.
The Rule of Law on a battlefield? Really? I guess that explains it all, D-Dub.
The only thing weak-tea here is your cohones. Jesus-freaking-Christ, man. Do you listen to yourself when you type out this crap or is it just stream of consciousness?
Okay, so you think it’s okay. No need to be a jerk about it.
Mine was among the first voices to urge al-Awlaki’s father to seek an injunction, stopping Obama from killing his kid without legal process, even though the question of his status to file a suit was questionable. I wasn’t surprised, but I was disappointed that the court dismissed the suit for lack of standing and put the issue back into the political realm. Up to the political process to figure out who it’s okay to kill, don’t you see? But, of course, we’re talking about issues like constitutional rights that al-Awlaki himself didn’t give a shit about. He could have gone to court himself to get his name removed from the targeted list if that was really an issue with him. He could have settled the issue in court, but he had other concerns, other goals that had absolutely nothing to do with protecting civil rights in America.
No, I’m not making any assumption about what he was actually doing, because we dont actually know. The government would use the state secrets doctrine to refuse to disclose the basis, if there is one, to justify an order to kill him. Marcy Wheeler has a post at empty wheel on this point.
In normal times, constitutionally protected speech is pretty broad, even advocacy of revolution.
“I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power, than by violent and sudden usurpations; but, on a candid examination of history, we shall find that turbulence, violence, and abuse of power, by the majority trampling on the rights of the minority, have produced factions and commotions, which, in republics, have, more frequently than any other cause, produced despotism. If we go over the whole history of ancient and modern republics, we shall find their destruction to have generally resulted from those causes.”- James Madison
“In time of actual war, great discretionary powers are constantly given to the Executive Magistrate. Constant apprehension of War, has the same tendency to render the head too large for the body. A standing military force, with an overgrown Executive will not long be safe companions to liberty. The means of defence agst. foreign danger, have been always the instruments of tyranny at home. Among the Romans it was a standing maxim to excite a war, whenever a revolt was apprehended. Throughout all Europe, the armies kept up under the pretext of defending, have enslaved the people.”- James Madison
“Perhaps it is a universal truth that the loss of liberty at home is to be charged against provisions against danger, real or pretended from abroad.”-James Madison
War was never declared officially, but keep going…
Al Awlaki was a CITIZEN, so did US citizens shoot each other in your “John Wayne WWII movies”?
I prefer Gary Cooper’s movies myself…
Proof, as in a court verdict not just on an unnamed government official say so ?
So, is a constitutional principle unimportant if someone to whom it applies indifferent to it’s protections?
If the President ordered me killed, no due process whatsoever, I’m not sure I’d run down the courthouse to see if a Judge would tell the President no.
Battlefield? Are we at war with Yemen?
I’m sure there are many signs. One sign might be when you start insisting that you alone have the moral right to unilaterally kill people around the world without any due process and in such a way that they don’t even know that they’re about to die as the drone’s missile is blowing them to bits.
Dylan Ratigan on MSNBC just stupidly used the “Who cares about protecting democracy when we have to kill someone in order to save lives” argument. Not his best moment.
Date of constitutionally mandated declaration of war, all other explanations are BULLSHIT.
“Terrorism focuses on civilians. This man is a recognized officer in an army at war with the US.”
So anyone can be a “recognized officer in an army at war with the US” upon the say-so of some military official, and assassinated?
Right the everywhere “battlefield”.
Why don’t you take your Porsche and shove it up your Aston Martin?
You contibute nothing to discussion, happy, but hateful, bigoted, igno-rant jingoistic nonsense … in other words … nothing at all.
America uber alles!!! And … you’ve got yours! … is what your diatribe consists of, selfish tribal nonsense.
Pathetic …
““It’s critically important,” the senior official said. “It sets a sense of doom for the rest of them. Getting Awlaki, given his tight operational security, increases the sense of fear.”
Ye fucking gods! Who are these “senior military officials”? Doom and fear are to terrorists what the briar patch is to Brer Rabbit. And this official should know that (projection?) since the US’s perpetual war of the last 70 years lives on a diet of doom and fear. Both the external and domestic terrorists would shrivel up and blow away without these staples. Doom and fear don’t break terrorists, they fuels them. Of course the US knows that, and its never-ending war requires is, which is why it keeps murding people like Awlaki.
How do you know when you are a terrorist state? The superficial answer is when you have something that the US wants and won’t roll over and give it to them. The truer answer is when you are a state that uses your power and money to go to another state and murder and steal from its people.
No, we don’t need to know anything. We need to be kept in the dark. The only ones who need to know, should have a need to know, or a really lucrative contract with the state department. Wonder how old Eric Prince is going to make out with the new wave of assassinations by contract that’s sure to be coming his way.
America has become the very thing the Constitution was designed to prevent.
Sounds like Ratigan just got his GE/WAR-Killing-Machine, Inc daily talking points… just like they do at Fox.
Of course, you only believe that the guy “WAGED WAR ON US AND THREATENED TO KILL INNOCENT CIVILIANS” because Obama told you so and you are mindlessly subservient to the dictates of the Obama. I know that this is going to shock you, but your dude Obama is not some perfect god.
Wake up O-bot.
This assassination, bad as it is, is a timely smokescreen for the embarrassing US position regarding Palestine’s bid for UN membership.
It provides convenient awful spectacle to consume the news cycles for the next few days.
Always amazing how wise some of those people were back then.
How do you know when you are a terrorist state? The superficial answer is when you have something that the US wants and won’t roll over and give it to them. The truer answer is when you are a state that uses your power and money to go to another state and murder and steal from its people….
… for any reason whatsoever, especially if it’s *beneficial* to the MIC & US corporations (aka, killing & disappearing tens of thousands, including lawfully elected Salvadore Allende, in Chile in the early 1970s).
Nothing new here under the sun, frankly. It’s just that – with the “information age” – the cat gets outta the bag faster & is much more in our faces. Can’t hide that man behind the curtain anymore.
Frankly, Team USA has been a Terrorist State for quite some time. Just ask any Native American.
It seems our indiscriminate killing of thousands of innocents since 9/11 has inured us to the possibility of killing our own citizens in the same manner. A large number of our fellow citizens are in dire need of what I would call CST -Constitution Sensitivity Training. Remember the 5th Amendment? “No person shall be deprived of life without due process of law.” What was the charge against al-Alawki? Who gave the President unreviewable authority to kill our own citizens? How many people are on the kill list? Does our government ever make a mistake in placing people on lists? Why are the courts no longer necessary in our GWOT? In addition to killing al-Alawki, did our rights and safeguards take a hit today?
Thanks for including the Pogo quote, Scarecrow, it’s appropriate considering what happened today.
Of course it’s not unimportant. But it’s important to keep some perspective, too. The constitutional issue is still there. And as far as running down to the courthouse goes, that “too afraid” to seek the protection of the courts argument didn’t fly back when Obama first targeted al-Awlaki, and it flies even less well now. Doesn’t gibe with al-Awlaki’s behavior. He chose his battlefield. Peace be unto him. And unto his family.
Aha! So you have adopted my hypothesis that the Porsche-and-Aston-Martin asshole, and the Porsche-and-Mercedes AMG asshole, are one and the same? You flatter me, DW.
That may be what President Zero wants you to believe, but that is not how things are in the US. . . .
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/06/01/free_speech
I feel like I’ve fallen back down the rabbit hole, and I’m back to Sept 11, 2001, where to suggest that Team USA might want to follow the Rule of Law, etc, was somehow giving “aid & comfort to the enemy.” Sad to see so many citizens jump on the bandwagaon of: Faster Faster Kill Kill… because it will make us “safe.”
Safe from what, pray tell??
Not so wise, considering how far from the constitution things have strayed. Constitutional hagiography and hero worship don’t change the fact that the institutional value of the constitution has been rendered an atavism, a symbol to genuflect to, but otherwise ignore.
“Frankly, Team USA has been a Terrorist State for quite some time. Just ask any Native American.”
So true. Manifest Destiny was the excuse for unparalleled genocide.
Your comments about the battlefield are irrelevant, because that is not what Obama’s assassination list is about.
Anybody who is on a battlefield, shooting at US troops, is likely to become a target, no presidential approval needed for that. Obama’s assassination list is different because it has nothing to do with battlefields. Obama’s goal is assassination, on or off the battlefield. Obama’s belief is that he can kill US citizens in their own beds if he wants to do so.
There ought to be an anti-Obamacide statute.
http://www.correntewire.com/the_anti_obamacide_statute
“Because I am pretty damn sure I never saw those scenes in any old John Wayne WWII movies.”
Holy fucking shit, HTSBD, that is the funniest line I’ve read on FDL in weeks!
I know what you mean. After 10 years of killing I fear our government more than I do some jihadist living in Yemen.
Yes, and frankly the exact same arguments were used for Native American genocide: to keep the white Europeans – who were invading & usurping Indian land/country – “safe.”
I don’t see much difference, but that’s just me.
Killing is so much fun, who the hell needs laws and shit?
No shit. And all those yay-hooing RAH RAH GO Team USA simply are not “getting” how it’s one small step from Al-Alawki to YOU. Ignore that inconvenient truth at your peril.
Its worse than that, even if he were a traitor, only a jury can sentence him to death. Not even British kings have had that power since the Magna Carta.
Though the implication runs through some of the comments here, I’ll come right out and say it:
If they’ll do this overseas, they’ll do it here.
They just won’t be announcing it.
I’m not sure the answer to your question is yes. But HTSBD’s reference to “old John Wayne WWII movies” as part of his rebuttal to DWB explains every comment of his I’ve ever read. The pretense has been exploded.
I hope everyone is clear that I am in complete accord with all the good points made here except for those that depend on a certainty that his speech qualified as Protected speech. And I hope we all agree that making that determination is a complex, not a simple, matter.
He had three people around a table and literally belittled the very idea of them having a discussion about it, because we have to kill them before they kill us and absolutely nothing else matters. He seemed to think that forcefully asserting a stupid argument clouds the fact that it’s a stupid argument.
I don’t think the real issue is what Awlaki was or wasn’t doing. Indeed, I think that is irrelevant. It’s not about the behavior of Awlaki but about the behavior of the US, which directly relates to the question of who is a terrorist. Or from another angle, are we all supposed to believe that every yahoo in the world with an AK and a pulpit can force the hand of the US, to get us to declare “state secrets,” to get us to throw out the rule of law, to get us to say, “Well, we sure hate to give up freedom and respond in kind to terrorism, but those little bastard have MADE us do it.” ?!?!
Exactly.
Yes and I can hardly wait for the drones to fly over Amerika what fun that will be;)
Yep, drones coming home soon to any Amerikan town near you.
The universal mantra of the terrorized mind is, “We have to get them before they get us.”
It is all covered very well in any old John Wayne western.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply.
Your telling quote above was:
“Mr. Awlaki’s death will send an important message to the surviving leaders and foot soldiers in Al Qaeda, both in Yemen and elsewhere. “It’s critically important,” the senior official said. “It sets a sense of doom for the rest of them. Getting Awlaki, given his tight operational security, increases the sense of fear. It’s hard for them to attack when they’re trying to protect their own back side.”
No civilians mentioned. That’s where the terror comes in. Terrorists can’t defeat our troops, so they use terror against civilians. US troops don’t need to use terror to defeat our enemies.
As with Osama Bin Laden, why did he need to die? What did he know?
It is very interesting that the only supposed terrorists that ever make it into a court of law are the incompetent ones that were baited by the CIA. The supposed “real” terrorists are never prosecuted. Why do you think that is?
If we have the power to kill these people, we have the power to capture them. We don’t want to capture them, plain and simple.
Why? Who benefits?
The military industrial complex is one suspect. Who else?
Otto, I agree with the general thrust of what you say. I was only addressing the part of the debate that grows from the assumption that the man did nothing more than “protected speech.”
How do you know when you’ve become a terrorist state?
When your citizenry becomes so shit scared of anyone who ain’t them–scared of their own fucking shadows, in fact–that they trade away what little freedom their state affords in exchange for unfettered “leadership” that will deliver heads on stakes.
The drones are here already. That’s been documented. The thing that’s not yet clear is whether they are armed.
We don’t necessarily have the power to capture anybody that we have the power to kill. Just sayin’ . . .
Man-o-man, Rahm was certainly right. Most of you are “f*cking retards.” When one of you has a friend or relative killed by a terrorist, then would you really be saying these things? Those of you who live in N.Y., would you give a printed copy of this thread to a spouse of someone killed on 9/11 and survey their responses, WRT “agree” or “disagree” with the opinions therein? If Claus von Stauffenburg had been successful, would you have used these same arguments to assert the illegality of his actions? My God, most of you truly are “useful idiots.” Except, this time, instead of being UI’s for the Bolsheviks it’s al Qaeda. I’m going to copy/paste this entire thread for my next “chain email.” Thank you, one and all for one of the best backhand “anti-liberal” expositions I have ever read.
Has the US not waged war on every country that doesn’t fall in line with our Corporate elites?
It’s hard to keep track of these days just who the US is at war with. It’s a different country/person/group/terrorist/etc every single day.
Oh, yeah. I got you. :)
You asked who benfits, MsAnna?
How about who “enjoys”?
happytoshare does, he was very happy that Troy Davis was dear, “… toes up.” as ole happy put it …
And vidkunquisling, down below, seems utterly enraptured … to the extent that our conversation has hime all aflutter …
And, of course the political class who dote on such as happy and vidkunquisling are almost as turned-on as when they have video-tapes to cicle jerk around.
As to true benefit, all the happy authoritarian little vidkuns of the MICC (Military Industrial Congressional Complex) and the privatized “forces” of endless war …
DW
We could give a printed to copy to a spouse of someone killed since 9/11 by these drones and our many wars but unfortunately their names don’t get printed in the New York Times. As the saying goes, everybody counts or nobody counts and the US “learned” to stop counting the bodies from Vietnam.
Another “quisling” heard from.
“I feel like I’ve fallen back down the rabbit hole, and I’m back to Sept 11, 2001 . . .”
Ah ha! You have articulated the essential Orwellian trick at work here: It is always Sept. 11, 2001. Everyday. Indefinitely.
We have permenantly confined ourselves, out of fear, to that time and place, where we may very well remain until the empire is wrecked.
Assassinating an american citizen without due process over political speech our government didnt like.
The US Constitution and the First and Fifth Amendments are so pre-9/11.
Heil Obama!
Why, DW, I do believe you are gettin’ riled up. ;-) We can stop wasting energy on Happy–he just revealed himself to be nothing but an abject liar by declaring on a Dissenter thread that there are currently only 50 people at the OWS demonstration. The pics make his dishonesty crystal clear. One might reasonably debate with a misinformed or misguided person, but there is no rationale for debating with a deliberate liar.
I think he’s done a little more than “call for armed struggle.”
And while courts are free to make determinations, in matters of war and peace they pretty much defer to Congress, which pretty much defers to the President, who seems reasonably to have judged this person to be someone who was deserving of death. I’m having a hard time getting upset about that… particularly compared to the fact that the President can pretty much blow up the entire planet on a whim.
As for who is the enemy, that seems clear. People who declare themselves the enemy, repeatedly, by action and words, are surely in that category. Is it terrorism to kill such people? I don’t see it. Nor is it such a tragedy to kill the drivers and guards in their convoys. That is not terrorism, that is war… ugly bloody war.
They gave us a Republic. We were supposed to keep it.
You have done as good a job here objectifying and demeaning those who lost someone on 9/11 as you have done for your enemies, both real and imagined.
The bottom line is it is over. If George W. Bush had done what our so called liberal president did he would be crucified in the media and on the left. Pandora’s box has been opened and we are now on that slippery slope. First it was the warrantless wiretaps and surveillance of persons and their equipment, then it was rendition and later it is reading people’s email and internet activity without their knowledge and now the ultimate violation of our constitutional rights. If the president of the United States can order the killing of a U.S. citizen then he or she can order anything. IT IS OVER FOR THIS DEMOCRACY. WE ARE NOW IN A NAZI/FACIST DICTATORSHIP guranteed by the corporatist for the corporatist.
They will be soon
http://singularityhub.com/2011/08/21/tased-from-above-new-robot-copter-to-begin-patrolling-our-skies-video/
to terrorize, to strike fear in the enemy’s hearts, to immobilize the enemy through fear. So who is the enemy and who is the terrorist in this conversation?”
“No, that is the strategy of war, not the strategy of terrorism. Terrorism focuses on civilians. This man is a recognized officer in an army at war with the US.”
What a mixed up jumble. War and terrorism are THE SAME THING with differences only of degree, not kind. War, like terrorism, as it has been waged over the past two centuries has focussed on civilians and troops alike. I guess part of the point intended is that if Awlaki is an enemy soldier he can be killed at will. But al Qaeda targeted civilians on 9/11 so Awlaki must be a terrorist and not a soldier?
Making this false distinction is particularly obnoxious when one considers how many civilians have been killed in drone strikes in Pakistan. All people of good will recognize that the drone policy is a form of terrorism, because of the limited numbers killed in any one strike and their mostly civilian character, and is also war because of the much larger numbers of deaths over time.
The reality is that to consider the motley remnants of al Qaeda, which never had that many members at any time, an army is ludicrous.
“I’m pretty certain that falsely shouting “fire” in a crowded theater is not constitutionally protected speech. And I’m pretty clear that advocating war against the United States amounts to both a renunciation of citizenship and a declaration of war.”
The silliness of this analogy is clear when you compare the crowded theater scenario with people half a world away meeting in meetings and talking bad things about the US. You don’t see it’s the crowdedness of the theater that necessitates limits on free speech there?
In any case, where is the evidence Awlaki did engage in planning war against the US? I don’t believe there is any.
What battlefield was Awlaki on? A completely false analogy.
Why is it that the trolls – or if not trolls, naysayers – that come here are so inept?
With all respect to those who lost their lives on 9/11 and their families & friends, I consistently find it amazing how far too many US citizens are only too willing to wring their hands over lost lives of US citizens in NYC on 9/11/2001, and then just stop there.
I guess everyone else – including US military personnel, US mercenaries & various types of US workers near battlefields – are just so much collateral damage and don’t count. Certainly Iraqi, Afghani, Pakistani, Yemeni, Libyan, etc, citizens, including innocent women & children, killed by Team USA seem to matter not one whit to far too many US citizens, who seem hyper-fixated on their own so-called “safety.”
Now Team USA is murdering US citizens, and *that* is all very very good, as long as the propoganda sings a siren song about that particular US citizen was, indeed, very very bad and threatening US citizens’ “safety.” Nice that everyone just takes US MIC propoganda at face value… just like so many citizens also willingly swallowed wholesale the Saddam Hussein was: 1) aiding and abetting Al Qaeda (he wasn’t and in fact was keeping them out of Iraq and not supporting them at all), and 2) had lots of dangerous weapons of mass destruction (he didn’t).
When will citizens wake up? Probably never, alas.
The U.S. regularly wages war on countries which have not attacked it, and has killed 100s of 1,000s of innocent civilians.
Yes. Although I would argue vehemently that the media would’ve “crucified” GW Bush for doing the same. Emphatically, the media would not have done that. However, so-called “liberals” in Team USA would’ve been up in arms, for the most part…. which is why some progressives say they’d prefer having a rightwing/GOP POTUS… bc at least then *maybe* progressives would wake up and smell the coffee… not my prefered “solution,” but just saying…
Fuck off, happy. DW is one of the most thoughtful and admired posters here.
As for the rule of law on a battlefield, I suppose you never heard of the Geneva Accords which are just that. And they are the rule of law for the US because they are part of a treaty we signed. This is so even though Gonzo Gonzales said they were quaint.
DW sez:
“Why don’t you take your Porsche and shove it up your Aston Martin?”
I second that motion.
> I think he’s done a little more than “call for armed struggle.”
That’s not for you, or any single man or depraved President, to determine. That is for a court of law to determine. Don’t like it? Move to the U.S.
From Glenn Greenwald (can be read on todays Common Dreams):
“Despite substantial doubt among Yemen experts about whether he even has any operational role in Al Qaeda, no evidence (as opposed to unverified government accusations) was presented of his guilt. When Awlaki’s father sought a court order barring Obama from killing his son, the DOJ argued, among other things, that such decisions were “state secrets” and thus beyond the scrutiny of the courts. He was simply ordered killed by the President: his judge, jury and executioner. When Awlaki’s inclusion on President Obama’s hit list was confirmed, The New York Times noted that “it is extremely rare, if not unprecedented, for an American to be approved for targeted killing.” ”
And aren’t we forgetting in all this that the US is not at war with al Qaeda, Yemen, Afghantistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Iran, or Libya as there has been no congressional declaration of war against any of them. The slippery slope of lawlessness in this country gets steeper every day.
WAR? No, its not. Congress hasn’t declared WAR last I checked. This simply is what it is, extra-judicial killing / murder. Justify it any way you want to by saying whatever, but were not at War. Not only that, but this man was an American citizen and nobody filed any charges against him. What’s to stop President Palin or Bachman from deciding that secular humanists /liberals/socialist are terrorists and a threat to the Christian American way of life and their leaders need to be killed ASAP, all the while using the same thinking? The rationale behind these Assassinations is crazy and is going to eventually backfire on all of us.
It’s really not that far off, is it?
“Not so wise, considering how far from the constitution things have strayed.”
The Constitution was never conceived as a rigid set of rules that would continue to be relevant far into the future like the Ten Commandments. Its provisions are as general as they are precisely because the Framers – in their, yes, wisdom – knew the world would change radically from the one they knew. That’s why the amendment process was included. Your comment is quite irrelevant.
“the institutional value of the constitution has been rendered an atavism, a symbol to genuflect to, but otherwise ignore.” Har har hardy har har! That’s a barrel a laughs.
The only problem we have vis a vis the Constitution is that it is being flouted left and right. I’m always amused at pretentious posters who know nothing about the Constitution or about the people who created it.
Here’s a useful tip: if you don’t know what you’re talking about, don’t talk.
Directly yes, but how many indirectly? The US elites provided material support to the worst enemies of mankind during WW2, seems they at least deserve to be credited with an assist on those deaths?
Of all the things I miss the most and want back the most, habeas corpus is, and has been at the top of the list ever since the quaint notion of “enemy combatant” was introduced.
Thank you.
“No civilians mentioned. That’s where the terror comes in. Terrorists can’t defeat our troops, so they use terror against civilians. US troops don’t need to use terror to defeat our enemies.”
Shouldn’t you be skinning a pony?
Might throw in g-aw-d and the buy-ble while you’re at it.
You don’t have the right to take away anyone else’s Constitutional protections. You want to give up yours, then go right ahead.
indeed, but I think you mean the faux-patriot
I pray in an agnostic sort of way you are right.
The elites both sides have agreed it’s a free for all, for them any way. Though they will agree with a small fine from time to time, for appearances sake.
succinct and well said
“The slippery slope of lawlessness in this country gets steeper every day.” Well said.
Been doing it already, but suppose they can be more open about it in the future.
Amen. We’ve lost our way.
How Do You Know When You’ve Become a Terrorist State?
When a president, a professed professor of constitutional law, rests easy having renegaded on the rights of a fellow citizen as outlined in the constitution supposedly studied by said professor.
Weird how he hasn’t shown much interest in the Constitution, eh?
I guess it helps him sleep at night not believing in anything. Really not all that different from the silverspoon shrub.
You’re assuming the offical gov. story of who killed those people.
I do not know whether President gets time to reflect but who are the advisors to this who can reflect and give advice on right way to proceed.
Lets look at this logically and see how avoiding a small step makes it a big issue of avoiding constitution and avoiding internationally recognized due process of law.
We have a trouble maker who did bad stuff, our intelligence knows this, gives President evidence, tells President about it and get Authorization, ensure accountability for his or her past action.
All that was required a simple step. It would have been just a federal or military court justifying the same step in absentia of that trouble maker person and then President giving the authorization. This is just a formal step and does anyone think in place of evidence a Military court will deny the request considering the situation. It looks good to the international community that we have followed due process of law in our courts for the attack on our soil a decade back. Everybody will be happy and the result is just the same.
Now we have international community wondering what is happening to America BTW I am talking here about billions of people living outside America and Americans wondering whether there is a assault on our constitution. Pretty much a lose-lose situation for avoiding a small step where you are guaranteed success in a military court if there is even little bit of justification available on this kind of trouble makers.
So, the ends justify the means, eh? That’s really what you are arguing. The problem with that in this case is that the means used were totally unnecessary.
This American citizen could easily have been tried in absentia and even sentenced to death in an open court. But Obama and the federal government CHOSE not to do that. Why? I can only speculate, but I imagine that the reason is the same as why Osama bin Laden wasn’t captured and brought back to stand trial.
Obama and the government didn’t want the public to hear the defense arguments. Probably because there is something in those arguments from the defense that they are afraid of. Political convenience does not necessity make.
These events are horrible and dangerous precedents. If the President can order the assassination of an American citizen overseas without any kind of due process or trial, what is to prevent Obama or a future President from doing the same to political opponents at home?
Nothing, that’s what. All he has to do is label them terrorists and send in the drones. Is that the kind of country you want?
Battlefield? There was no battlefield. The guy and the other people who died with him were leaving a funeral, according to government spokescritters.
This wasn’t a battle, it was more like a high-tech Mafia hit.
” Terrorists can’t defeat our troops, so they use terror against civilians. US troops don’t need to use terror to defeat our enemies.”
“The rebels can’t defeat our troops, so they hide behind trees and dishonorably shoot our men in the back.”
–the British, Massachusetts, 1775
“The resistance cannot defeat our army, so they plant bombs and blow up their own people if they have to so they can cowardly kill the glorious soldiers of the Third Reich.”
–the Nazis, France, 1943
You are a damned fool, sir.
Well, that’s not really fair. The Persians, the Macedonians, the Mongols, the British, and the Russians were also unable to defeat that “group of ragtag upstarts in Afghanistan,” though I’m sure all five described them in a similar fashion.
Ragtag upstarts. Indeed. They are far more than that, I’m afraid. And weren’t such things said about the “gooks” in Southeast Asia during my lifetime?
We are in a war we cannot win.
They’re controlled from an Air Force base in Missouri. Saw a documentary on it, complete with the remote human pilots in their game chairs.
We had the power to capture Osama. The Navy SEALs would have done just that had they been ordered to. They really are very good at what they do. The American government itself said that Osama was unarmed and hiding behind a woman. Yet the SEALs couldn’t capture him alive?
If you believe that, I would like to know what you are smoking and where I can get some.
Obama did remember to use it as a prop when he gave his speech justifying Indefinite Preventative Detention in the hall where the Constitution is kept.
Orwell would have appreciated that one.
Hang on there, gringo. (Always wanted to say that lol.) I agree about bin Laden. I’m just saying there can be many other situations where a kill might be possible, but a live capture would not be possible, or might put too many other lives at risk, so that the kill becomes the best available option. I really don’t think any reasonable person can argue against that reality.
Population of the Third Reich in 1939: 84,000,000 (approx).
WWII Military deaths: 5,530,000
WWII Civilian deaths: 1,220,000-3,270,000
WWII Total deaths as % of population: 8.0-10.5
Population of Japan in 1939: 71,380,000 (approx).
WWII Military deaths: 2,120,000
WWII Civilian deaths: 500,000 – 1,000,000
WWII Total deaths as % of population: 3.7-4.7
Source Wiki
In just these two “enemy” countries there were between 1,720,000 and 4,270,000 deaths due to “collateral” damage. If your personal “threshold” of collateral deaths is less than this number, then ipso facto you consider the second world war to have been an immoral war that we should never have entered under any circumstances. So choose your personal CDT (collateral death threshold) and please let us all know what that is. We would also be interested in your personal MOI-war (murder of innocents = war) threshold. I can tell you that mine is way less than 2,997.
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” – Orwell
“IT IS OVER FOR THIS DEMOCRACY. WE ARE NOW IN A NAZI/FACIST DICTATORSHIP guranteed by the corporatist for the corporatist.” No. In a NAZI/FACIST dictatorship you would be arrested for defaming the PTB (Great Leader Obama and the Revolutionary Obat Party of the People and Defenders of the Worker’s Paradise), placed in detention, probably tortured psychologically if not physically, your family/friends would be placed under surveillance, and then you would either (1) be sent to a concentration camp or prison (2) sent to a mental institution or (3) executed outright. Instead you are given free reign to promulgate your thoughts and philosophies as you wish. (Self reference to this blog.) In case you missed 20-century history classes, here are some examples of real “NAZI/FACIST”-like dictatorships:
This one
This one
This one’s still around
So’s this one
You can find a large list of them here
I’ve looked them over and haven’t found one yet I’d like to visit, much less live in. Of course, you can decide this for yourself, too, since we all do NOT live in a “NAZI/FACIST” state.
No one likes a smart ass. Since you obviously don’t understand a satirical statement, let me explain it to you. In this country especially since the election of GWB in 2000 our civil liberties and constitution has slowly but surely been destroyed. Now individuals like yourself who applaud this type of action is apparently alright with it and that is your right but make no mistake about it. We are in a Nazi/facist state. This government can without a warrant listen to my telephone and internet conversations. This government can place me in detention and threaten me and my family with physical and phychological harm without charge. This government can send me to a mental institution with a physican say so and as with saw with Troy Davis in Georgia they can execute me on flimsy evidence. You are correct I can voice my opinions and thought freely until the government decide that I can not. Ask the American citizen Al Awlaki and his American passenger. Oh, that doesn’t matter to you because since this is not a Nazi/Facist government of course we wouldn’t do something like that. Maybe you should go back to your list and do a comparison. In this country we have more people in prison than some countries have populations. We execute more people daily than some countries execute in a year. Hooray for the U.S. the country that is not a Nazi/Facist country.
Obama is pretty smart and has access to information that neither of us do. Could it be, and I’m just speculating here, that, being in his position as Commander in Chief and the ultimate authority in charge of our security, he has had some kind of epiphany or come to realize something that you are too stubborn, dogmatic, or ignorant to figure out? (I used ‘ignorant’, not stupid, there’s a difference.) I think this is entirely possible.
I am sure that our esteem president has access to lots of information that I do not. However, that doesn’t give him the right to act as a dictator. When the next president gets into office the precedent has been set. It doesn’t matter if it is a democrat or republican, man or woman. The precedent has been set. Say goodbye to your rights. I wasn’t with our founders when they wrote the constitution but I am certain they did not intend for our government (ie) executive branch to make rules concerning the life, liberty and due process of our citizens in some back room with a bunch of career government employees. I am fairly certain they intended for it to be a process that was debated and debated and debated and then voted on by the people. I am sorry that I voted for this president but that is one mistake I will not make again.
OK, then why don’t you move to another country? Can’t find one as nice as this one? (/s, so don’t blow, yet.) Of course, it is your country just like it is my country. It’s as much your right to stay here and change things as it is mine. Too bad for you that the “majority of Americans” have beliefs that are closer to mine than yours, at this instant in history. That’s Democracy. Beliefs change over time in a Democracy, and it is the only self-correcting form of Government known. Your beliefs may become ascendant in the future and mine may become descendant. It’s not Facism. Not even “sarcastic Facism.” You have one vote, I have one vote. The “political classes” know that and add up the numbers, continuously. That’s Democracy. We have two political parties that go at each other like rabid dogs. (We do need 3 or 4 parties, however; that much of the progressive dogma I will buy into.) That’s Democracy. There are no litmus tests on political beliefs. All have to compete in the Darwinian marketplace of the political dynamic, each side using its arsenal of polemics to assail the other. I would not have it any other way. Sarcasm-Facism? Not. Lunatic asylum – democracy. Yeah, that’s closer to the truth.
“Many forms of Government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.” – Churchill
Un-friggin-believable!
“access to information that neither of us do”
Yes, Obama has the secret pages of the Constitution that tell the President just f-cking ignore whenever ya like.
Do you ever feel like a pretzel?
progress, the rule of law means nothing anymore and you can hear something very similar from a large chunk of the so-called left.
Why do you think they wouldn’t go through the trouble of a trial? Could it possibly be the person in question committed only righteous or other angry words?
“wondering whether there is a assault on our constitution”
I’m wondering how long the Muslim is going to let the US get away with excuses for killing their families, friends, neighbors and fellow citizens.
And if thoughts or words expressed that would give comfort to America’s so-called enemies carry a death sentence, then when are they coming for me?
Here’s my unfortunately ignored most recent warning about the Al-Awlaki Assassination, published here at firedoglake three days before the Murder:
http://my.firedoglake.com/normanb/2011/09/26/obamas-sharpshooters-murder-40-peaceful-pro-democracy-protesters-in-yemen-again-is-this-a-warning/
Thank you for providing more context.
alan, they do use terror. Thats what COIN is, it’s what war is. It’s terrorizing them until they either agree to your political terms or you keep killing them until they do.
Interesting piece on Fox News. The comment by Ron Paul that this is a very dangerous precedent was mentioned by a woman who said we have an entire generation of Republicans thats growing up that believes that we’ve gone to far, and they don’t believe the government’s story about 9/11.
Things will change when these ideas reach a critical mass.
They aren’t the left. They are cruise missile liberals.
Marx said this:
“In some modern usage “petite bourgeoisie”, a class that lies between the workingmen and the capitalists, is used, usually derisively, to refer to the consumption habits and tastes of the middle class and the lower middle class in particular.”
The petit bourgeois were to lose out in the historical processes that Marxism predicted; the claim was made that they were therefore the mainstay of Fascism, which was presented as a terroristic reaction to the inevitability of these losses.”
They are very much the kind of people that are invested in the system. The difference between the Dems and the Republicans is that the dems just want the slaves treated a little nicer, but they absolutely don’t mind the slavery.
I am so tired of this “He’s our Commander in Chief” line. I think it’s a symptom, myself. Neither Obama nor any other President is my “Commander in Chief,’ as I am not, nor have I ever been, a member of the U.S. military. Also, and I could be wrong, since I learned it on Junior High, but I think the President is only Commander in Chief of the military during such times as a Congressionally declared war. I don’t count the AUMF.
Also, he’s not “in charge of our security.” The oath of office doesn’t say a mumblin’ word about our “security:”
I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_office_of_the_President_of_the_United_States)
And this whole “he has special knowledge” crap sounds an awful lot about an excuse to me. Being a DFH, anyone trying that with me pretty much suspicious from the start.
The first time I learned of the magic phrase “National Security,” of which the mere utterance flips the whole “innocent until proven guilty” on its head, I got cold chills. Such a useful tool. It came in for the Manhattan Project, and somehow, it never left. Kind of like the President claiming for himself the power to order the murder of any U.S. citizen he has deemed dangerous.
He may be a “perfect god” in this instance, but other times, he’s just “one man” who couldn’t possibly influence the legislature, but we need him really desperately just the same.
How Do You Know When You’ve Become a Terrorist State?
When someone asks the question, then you know your a Terrorist State.
Obama’s death squads – Yes, he can!
No doubt.
Now that is one very superb comment, VCarlson.
Hope to see your comments more often, at the Lake …
DW
Because, we’re Americans, and we’re EXCEPTIONAL. Special, Dog’s favorite people (after the Israelis and Muslims, of course).
Never forgit that boy.