Last night Nation Books held a public discussion, Meltdown: The Economic Collapse and a People’s Plan for Recovery, with Joseph Stiglitz, Barbara Ehrenreich, Bill Fletcher, Jr., Jeff Madrick and Christopher Hayes. The video and audio should be posted soon, but until then I thought I’d share my rough transcription of Stiglitz’s opening remarks:
What I thought I would do in this introductory remarks is to talk a little bit about the causes of the crisis. Most of the discussion is focused on the problems of loose monetary policy, lax regulation. But I want to spend a minute trying to explain why it is that we had those loose monetary policies. The underlying problem was an insufficiency of global aggregate demand. I don’t know if you remember at the end of WWII, there was a worry that we would go back into a depression and one of the reasons for that worry was a worry that there would be insufficient demand to keep the economy growing.
Well, the reason that the monetary authority, the Fed, pursued this lax monetary policy was, in the absence of that there would have been insufficient demand. We would have had an economic downturn. The question is why was there insufficiency of global aggregate demand? And there are two reasons.
The first is the increasing inequality in most countries around the world and it’s a really striking phenomena [1]. Actually, if look in the United States, we know that even though there has been growth in GDP, most people are poorer today than they were 8, 9 years ago. Median income has been falling and that’s true in most countries around the world. So, the reason this is a problem is that what we’ve done in effect is transfer money from people who would spend it to people who don’t spend it. And that lowers aggregate demand. In the United States we tried to get around the problem that the people at the bottom’s income was getting lower in real terms by telling them, "don’t worry you can continue to spend as if you had income." That is to say, we encouraged them to go into debt finance. And in a sense it worked pretty well for a few years but it was clearly not sustainable. In the United States, what made things worse was the war. Because what the war did is contribute to rising oil prices, rising oil prices meant that Americans were spending hundreds of billions of dollars a year to buy, to import, oil. Again, back in the seventies, when this kind of thing happened, there was a severe downturn. It didn’t happen this time. And why? Well, what happened was the Fed allowed… had low interest rates, that fed a housing bubble, that fed a consumption boom, that enabled Americans to continue to consume even though we were spending so much money on imported oil. The results of this was that our household savings rate fell to zero. Again, clearly not a sustainable policy. I sometimes jokingly say it was exactly the policy that Latin America pursued in the 1970s. It was the one part of the world that did not have major crisis after oil prices rose and evidently people studied what they did and they got all excited about this debt finance as a way of getting out of the problem of rising oil prices. Well, what they forgot was that Latin America ran into problems and they had a debt crisis in the beginning of the 1980s that led to a lost decade in Latin America.
So that’s one reason for insufficiency of global aggregate demand. The second reason is related to actually to the crisis the world faced a decade ago the global financial crisis of ’97 and ’98. The way that crisis was managed by the IMF and the US Treasury was a disaster [2]. Countries lost their economic sovereignty. The IMF pushed them into pro-cyclical policies that converted downturns into recessions, recessions into depressions. If you want to get a feeling of how badly things can be mismanaged, unemployment in the central island Java of Indonesia got up to 40%. So we have a way to go yet to reach those achievements. The consequence of this bad management of the global financial crisis was that countries decided that they would never let this happen again. I’ve talked to Prime Ministers in both the countries that were affected and not affected who said, "We’ve learned the lesson of 1997". One of them said, "I was in the class of ’97." So, the only way they had to protect themselves was to build up large reserves. And they have built up literally trillions of dollars of reserves. China’s reserves by themselves are 2 trillion dollars. Well, the reserves are good for protecting them but it means that these countries are not spending all their income. So, it contributes to a global insufficiency in aggregate demand.
One of the things that concerns me as we discuss the details of how we get out of the crisis, the stimulus, mortgages, banks – we aren’t paying attention to the some of the underlying causes that got us into the problem: bout this huge inequality and imbalances. And in fact the way we are managing the crisis right now is likely to lead to incentives for developing countries to get even more reserves, making it more difficult for us to emerge from this crisis with a robust recovery.
my notes:
1. Stiglitz has written previously on how our "free trade" regime induces greater inequality.
2. In 1997 and 1998, Rubin and Summers were at Treasury and Geithner was at the IMF. For a look at Geithner’s role in the Asian financial crisis, check out this post from naked capitalism: Former Australian Prime Minister Savages Geithner’s Performance in the Asian Crisis.
3. Interesting related op-ed in the Financial Times by the same author, Paul Keating: A chance to remake the global financial system.



33 Comments







Thank you so much for doing this, selise. Really does convey the chain reaction of “contraction”. Infuriating to hear of the money trickling UP to the non-spending plutocrats. Free trade = inequality. Ouch. And globalization is feeling like the US citizenry has less national protection as it used to from the nouveau literally gone global “Masters of the Universe.”
Will explore your links, too.
I would disagree with Stiglitz that the war in Iraq drove up oil prices. Prices actually fell just before the invasion and shifted back and forth during the rest of 2003 but the price range was essentially between low and normal levels. It wasn’t until the beginning of 2004 that prices began their definitive increases and this had more to do with the loose credit policies of Alan Greenspan combining with the freeing up of speculative restraints on Wall Street.
If the war had been a factor, it would only have been so in the first couple of years. As it dragged on, oil markets would simply have added perhaps a smidgeon to the underlying price and a new and not much increased equilibrium price would have been settled on. This did not happen because speculation not fear of disruption in oil flows due to the war was the primary driver.
But I would agree that the Asian crisis is important to understanding how we got where we are now. But again it is only one of the pieces. Deregulation of American financial markets coupled with Greenspan’s easy credit policies are what drove our side of the trade imbalances. This was made worse because it dovetailed with the desire in Asian countries reacting to 1997-1998 to build up reserves.
Stiglitz implies it but the redirection of American wealth to the rich not only decreased demand but funneled wealth into a cycle of ever bigger and more dangerous financial bubbles. Taken together with the wealth flowing into the country from Asian sources, it accelerated the speculative fever and the creation of the essentially fictional paper economy.
i wondered about the oil price and war part too, because i haven’t seen his argument for that. i think it must be in the three trillion dollar war, which i have not read. in any event i’m pretty sure from other things i’ve read that their estimate on the price increase due to the war was something like 5 to 25$/barrel (i have this very vague recollection of estimates based on pre-war speculation?). but in any event the later, much bigger run up in prices i’m quite sure is not what stiglitz is referring to here. i guess i’m going to have to check out the three trillion dollar war to have real clue about that.
stiglitz has written more about financial deregulation problems than any other mainstream economist i know of (if there’s someone who’s done more i’d like to know so i know who to read) – not just domestically but also especially on financial deregulation (liberalization) that was imposed via the IMF, etc. but this short remark i transcribed is, as he said, only about loose monetary policy and not lax regulation. but you make a good point that lax regulation contributes to the bubble – or at least i’d say where the bubble goes.
i think what stiglitz is saying, is that the bubbles were due not to inequality directly but only because of the loose monetary policy that was used to compensate for the inadequate demand which resulted from growing inequality. in other words, faced with three options: decrease inequality, recession or bubbles – the decision was to go with the bubble economy. in another part of the discussion stiglitz talks a bit about what you call the paper economy. i’ll go give it another listen and see if it’s worth transcribing.
regarding the capital flows into the USA from asia and elsewhere, i would call them speculative and not wealth or investment. uncertainty may feed them, but i don’t see how they are sustainable and the size of the flows could be diminished or even reversed. basically i see them as another bubble. at least that’s how i see it today.
prior to the current crisis i read stiglitz for trade and globalization, but i skipped or skimmed most of the other topics and am only now going back and reading or rereading some of his non-tech writing.
it’s too late for me to add this to the post, but here’s a bit more i transcribed on the same topic:
Thanks selise.
digg is open.
i had so wished i was in new york so i could go to this. thanks for giving us your draft. off to read your links.
the keating articles are eye-opening. i had no idea geithner has such a destructive background.
This is an interesting theory of Stiglitz’, although I agree with Hugh that the Iraq War per se was not the cause of high oil prices. At best, it only contributed to the rise. That was about the time it looked like we’d never get any more oil out of the place. It clearly had to do mostly with oil being one of the more profitable places to invest money back then, given the changes in rules.
I wrote back in September that the growing income disparity here was one of the reasons for the housing bubble’s effect on the financial world. The lowered consumer demand is another one. In a sense, this has been a problem for some time. It took Japan, Korea, and China quite some time to convert from an export-oriented economy to a consumer one. It looks like we may have to go through our own transition, both for our own good and a good part of the rest of the world.
aren’t china, japan and s. korea still export oriented economies? i haven’t looked at any data, just going by memory of other related reading. actually i was thinking that there were two main paths countries seemed to be on (prior to the crisis). one was export dependent and one was bubble dependent – we weren’t the only country that was in bubble land (for example, maybe spain, uk, australia ???)… i should look it up but am too tired/lazy right now.
China still is, certainly. I think that Japan was becoming a consumer economy in the 90s, before everything went bust over there. What they are now would take an economist to explain, I suppose. Korea has also been making the transition. All three countries still export heavily.
There are European countries in just as much trouble as we are. Some probably could be said to have those problems for some of the same reasons. Unfortunately, any such definitions are clouded by the fact that there are so many international banks now.
some european countries are in more trouble than we are. although sometimes for different reasons – like those who have lent lots of money to eastern europe. maybe uk and spain look the most similar to us (housing bubble burst?).
selise, Joseph Stiglitz has an article on Alternet today, published in The Nation. He recommends nationalizing the banks, and even Greenspan and Dodd are in agreement.
IMHO, the IMF, World Band and World Trade Organization have very dirty (and bloody) hands. John Perkins books about his being an economic hit man (he is also on YouTube and has been on DemocracyNow) explains how those 3 worked with the EHMs to bring about economic destruction of S. American and Asian countries. He appeared to be employed by a big bank in Boston, but it was the US Treasury that controlled his controllers and paid his very handsome salary and perks.(began 1965 or 67).
selise, finally read your comments over on an EW thread re: the deplorable fact that the Dems really didn’t ask tough questions of Bernacke at the Sen Banking Committee hearing last week, nor did they ask really good questions at the AIG hearing (with regulators). You made the point that this disaster has been going on for months now, and the Dems didn’t push anyone against the wall for answers.
I think that I follow you.
What does piss me off is to see Bernacke have to take the crap for Greenspan’s terrible decisions, but there’s an additional factor that I never see anyone bring up: the homebuilders and realtors have been thick as thieves with the GOP at least as far back as the early 80s.
That culture is all about ‘ownership’, and all about bubble economics. In addition, that particular segment of the economy does **NOT** value skilled labor.
For instance, house framers don’t require a minimum of 4 years in college (min $80,000), nor do electricians or plumbers require a B.S, nor a Masters degree. I’m not slamming the unions, and I’m not slamming the trades.
But I want to point out that a lot of people driving GOP politics (at least in my little corner of the world) operate in economic sectors that have:
– very low entrance barriers; if you can get a bank loan, you can begin life as a homebuilder
– very low formal academic training; if you have good people skills, and you have good follow up then probably few areas have as much potential for income as real estate…
– loan officers and title agents in my area also had very few regulatory requirements.
These are all ‘boom and bust’ economic activities that do NOT place much emphasis on formal education, nor overall — at the lower end, where subdivisions are constructed — do they require much in the way of professional certification.
That mindset is inherently skewed toward ‘winner take all’, at least as I’ve seen it play out. In other words, the people that I’ve watched give a ton of $$$ to the GOP are the very same people who don’t even ‘get’ the significance of what Stiglitz is saying.
The only thing that might bring them around is the fact that no one can afford to build the McMansions they’ve constructed. So now, they may be forced to give the concept of more equitable financial distribution a second look — particularly those among them who’ve gone bankrupt.
Anyway, great post.
Not sure that I brought much valuable info to it, but I think that there are plenty of people who are so caught up in the notion that they can make piles of money that they view Stiglitz’s message as something for ‘losers’. It’s going to take a very serious economic downturn for some of those attitudes to be bruised enough so that these people have to rethink their economic attitudes.
i don’t think i understand the link you’re making with a lack of formal education. didn’t know about the realtor/housing ties to the gop and wonder if that is true in blue states like MA also.
greed, me first, etc has proved to be pretty destructive. don’t know how to turn that around, do you have any ideas? imo lots of tv and especially commercials encourages it.
i saw that stiglitz article at the nation. pretty sure though his idea of nationalization is not quite the same as greenspan’s. or maybe i’m getting too cynical.
haven’t read perkins’ book, only listened a few interviews he’s done. i guess the reason i never read his book is that while i have no reason to disbelieve him, it didn’t sound like stuff i could go look up sources for and do acquarius74 @ 9 – some independent verification on. i much prefer reading books based on open source material for that reason – i think it’s easier to get a clue as to when i’m being spun.
in any event, i’ve already got plenty of evidence to think the IMF and US Treasury are part of the axis of evil, so i’m definitely with you there.
crashing now.
readerOfTeaLeaves @ 10 – thank you for your comment, if i wasn’t falling asleep at the keyboard i’d write a reply tonight. please forgive me for the delay. need sleep and then some coffee first.
Thanks, selise, for a most excellent diary.
Also, thanks to aquarius74 at #9 for the link to that Stiglitz article on the bailout and how to do it right.
Per the paradigms of the Austrian School, we are not in a “global crisis” but rather a “market correction” to the housing boom:
I feel better already. Ain’t the unseen hand grand?
damn. you’re going to make me quote stiglitz again!
This guy thinks we need to worry about the world and not ourselves. We saved the world in WWII and rebuilt our enemies. We have been building up our competion to where they are taking us over and we owe them and they own us. Our jobs our money and the countries wealth is being transferred every day to others and he’s worried about them. We need to get rid of the globalists and find some patiotic americans that think our country first.
that’s just wrong. it’s not an either/or proposition. and it sure looks like we’re going to sink or swim together.
re: stiglitz saying:
in lieu of the book, here’s something i found that might be helpful. from democracy now!, feb 2008: EXCLUSIVE–The Three Trillion Dollar War: Nobel Laureate Joseph Stiglitz and Harvard Economist Linda Bilmes on the True Cost of the US Invasion and Occupation of Iraq
Oil futures were at $32.19 when Bush came into office. This was an increase over the price during most of the 1990s. On September 10, 2001, the future price was $27.63 and due to pledges and support from Saudi Arabia the price fell into the $18-22 range for the next 6 months. It then climbed gradually back up to Inaugural prices before falling with the invasion of Iraq. Only in early 2004 did prices begin their relentless rise, and this was at a time when supply was actually excellent. Neither flow nor supply and demand were price drivers. Speculation was, and this makes sense because this was also when speculation really fired up the housing bubble.
i don’t know exactly what numbers stiglitz is looking at, but the numbers you cite look like the spot WTI (not futures) prices? if i look at RCLC4, Cushing OK Crude Oil Future Contract 4 (not long term, but i don’t see those), it was $23.4 on jan 21, 2001 and $19.72 on sept 10, 2001. i don’t know where to find comparable futures info that reflects import prices. but using your link (from item #308 for spot weighted by estimated import volume) the prices were $23.59 the week of jan 19, 2001 and $23.89 the weeks of sept 7 & 14, 2001.
more importantly though, when all the debates here on speculation were taking place last spring/summer, i quoted this bit from soros’ congressional testimony, which at the time i’d found helpful:
i just don’t see stiglitz’ claim about the war increasing oil prices as a statement against there also being speculative bubble. especially as he’s arguing that monetary policies fed the bubble. when it was thought that cheap iraq oil might become available (short “successful” war for bush – ok, i don’t know why anyone thought that, but it did seem to be the cw for a while), it makes sense to me that futures prices might drop but then rise as it became clear that even with sanctions lifted large amounts of cheap iraqi oil were not going to be coming to market any time soon.
it’s not that i think stiglitz is right – i don’t know and want to see his argument first – but i don’t see anything that precludes it either. i remain convinced re the speculative bubble but just don’t see that as mutually exclusive of war affects on price. actually, i think they look complementary.
Perhaps. A lot of these folks only see one link in the chain. “The rich produce the jobs…don’t tax the rich because it’ll take money the give to me by producing jobs.” They don’t see the relationship of having a healthy consumer class (and by that I mean one that is sustainable and not exploited) with the very fact that businesses are doing well. They don’t fundamentally understand that regulation assists in maintaining a fair playing field for entrepreneurs and those who would provide competition in a truly “free market”.
I’m wondering if we are speaking the same language to these folks. Maybe we should start using sports analogies? There “following the rules of the game, having qualified and fair officials, and not allowing one “team” to dominate the market is well understood. The problem with the analogy is that professional athletes are not, in the least, like workers in the real world, and the players unions are grotesque distortions of what most unions do.
Recommended; keep up the great effort and work Selise. And ,yes, the Asian economies ARE export dependent. Ironic that what is needed is for them to opt to ‘consumerism’ to boost their economies by exporting to each other rahter than the U.s. or Europe. They are picking up their exports to Latin America and Africa but that poses other problems,e.g., those nations don’t have laws against toxic substances being used in goods manufacturing or disposal.
And the bottomline is that the world can’t emulate a U.S. based ‘lifestyle’ without there being at least another 5 ‘earths’ to plunder for natural resources.
if the build up of reserves was to protect against being forced to undergo destructive imf policies (in the case, for example of capital flight), i guess it did work. but it made them more susceptible to crashing demand for their exports. don’t see any good alternatives to that unless we undertake a more equitable restructuring of global finance (not to mention resource constraints, etc). but we just don’t have the democratic institutions to support that…. at least not yet, but i see that as the work of at least a generation and we just don’t have the time.
That link to Geithner’s role in the Asian crisis is a keeper. I didn’t know that. Further confirmation of a growing body of evidence that all seems to go in the same direction.
i knew geither was at the imf and on asia during that time, but i didn’t know about his role until yves’ post.
when hugh wrote a diary on geither last november, i did a bit of a search on old speeches and congressional hearing testimony: here and here.
thanks to everyone for the comments.
Selise thanks. this one should be posted on the mothership
thanks, but rather have you able to comment. *g*
this morning brad sester has a must read post for anyone interested in the global shadow financial system: The shadow financial system – as illustrated in three new papers that cut through the London fog. here’s a bit, but it probably deserves it’s own diary: