I’d say the deficit debates were heating up again, but I don’t think they’ve let up since before last year’s Peterson Foundation Fiscal Summit (orthodoxy for neoliberal deficit hawks) and the grass roots Fiscal Sustainability Teach-In and Counter-Conference, both held on April 28, 2010. The Teach-In provided an important corrective, known as Modern Monetary Theory (MMT), to the false narratives of both deficit hawks and deficit doves.
Yesterday, Paul Krugman’s blog post Deficits and the Printing Press (Somewhat Wonkish), once again showed his ignorance of MMT, and in the process misinformed his readers (my emphasis):
Right now, deficits don’t matter — a point borne out by all the evidence. But there’s a school of thought — the modern monetary theory people — who say that deficits never matter, as long as you have your own currency.
I wish I could agree with that view — and it’s not a fight I especially want, since the clear and present policy danger is from the deficit peacocks of the right. But for the record, it’s just not right.
The bolded statement, as I’ll show below, is completely false. Fortunately, there are a couple of decades of scholarship available on the web (for example at: Levy Economics Institute of Bard College, Centre of Full Employment and Equity (CofFEE), Center for Full Employment and Price Stability, and EPIC), several specialist blogs (for example Warren Mosler, Bill Mitchell, New Economic Perspectives from UMKC and winterspeak) as well as naked capitalism and new deal 2.0 which publish posts by Marshall Auerback, Rob Parenteau, L. Randall Wray, Scott Fullwiler and James Galbraith for those of us who want to read and decide for ourselves (In my haste, I’m probably forgetting few names and links. But the above list should be enough to demonstrate the extent of information readily available).
What makes Paul Krugman’s error yesterday doubly frustrating is that it’s one he’s made before — in his July 17, 2010 post, I Would Do Anything For Stimulus, But I Won’t Do That (Wonkish) (my bold):
It’s really not relevant to current policy debates, but there’s an issue that’s been nagging at me, so I thought I’d write it up.
Right now, the real policy debate is whether we need fiscal austerity even with the economy deeply depressed. Obviously, I’m very much opposed — my view is that running deficits now is entirely appropriate.
But here’s the thing: there’s a school of thought which says that deficits are never a problem, as long as a country can issue its own currency. The most prominent advocate of this view is probably Jamie Galbraith, but he’s not alone.
Wrong in July and wrong again yesterday. Did Paul Krugman not read the responses, even in his own comments thread, correcting his false statement when he made the same mistake last year?
Here is James Galbraith’s reply:
I wrote — correctly and deliberately — that bankruptcy, insolvency and high real interest rates were not risks. Inflation *is* a risk.
By this, to be clear, I mean an ordinary garden-variety increase in the inflation rate is a risk — not the *infinite-inflation* scenario.
Inflation, though unattractive, is not remotely comparable to bankruptcy or insolvency, unless you get to Paul’s *infinite* inflation scenario. So what about that?
In his model, it is driven by his monetarist (quantity-theory) simplification, that the increase in money flows directly into prices. But this is just a modeling error. In the real world, especially in broadly deflationary conditions, people — and banks — simply hang on to cash. There is a Paul Krugman who understands this, from close study over many years of the Japanese stagnation.
Here is Scott Fullwiler’s reply:
Paul Krugman just showed his lack of understanding of the theory he is critiquing. That theory says solvency isn’t an issue, but inflation IS. That is, inflation is the constraint, not solvency. So, Krugman’s critique here is a complete straw man. That theory doesn’t say what he says it does.
neweconomicperspectives.blogspot.com/
moslereconomics.com
bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/
And Paul Davidson takes Krugman to task for his model:
Dear Paul; Given all your assumptions, no wonder you reach your conclusion. For example you assume the quantity theory of money. But the quantity theory requires an assumption of neutral money in both the short run and the long run. But Keynes, in hisarticle for the Spiethoff festschrift specifically argued that in a monetary economy , money is never neutral — in eiher the short run or the long run. For Keynes, the neutral money axiom was like the “axiom of parallels in a non-Euclidean world [ See page 16 of THE GENERAL THEORY.]
And if you employ axioms that are not characteristic of our entrepreneurial economy, then the teaching will be, as Keynes noted, “misleading and disasterous”
If you load the argumen with biased assumptions then your conclusions willbe biased.
L. Randall Wray replied at length in Deficits Do Matter, But Not the Way You Think, posted at new deal 2.0 (and cross posted at naked capitalism, creditwritedowns). Here are three key paragraphs:
There is an alternative view propounded by economists following what has been called “Modern Money Theory”, which emphasizes the difference between a currency-issuing sovereign government and currency users (households, firms, and nonsovereign governments) (See here and here). They insist that the notion of “fiscal sustainability” or “solvency” is not applicable to a sovereign government — which cannot be forced into involuntary default on debts denominated in its own currency. Such a government spends by crediting bank accounts or issuing paper currency. It can never run out of the “keystrokes” it uses to credit bank accounts, and so long as it can find paper and ink, it can issue paper currency. These, we believe, are simple statements that should be completely noncontroversial. And this is not a policy proposal — it is an accurate description of the spending process used by all currency-issuing sovereign governments.
The strangest criticism of all is that we MMT-ers argue that “deficits do not matter”. In a recent exchange in the New York Times, Paul Krugman put it this way: “But here’s the thing: there’s a school of thought which says that deficits are never a problem, as long as a country can issue its own currency.” In that piece he took Jamie Galbraith to task for arguing that “Insolvency, bankruptcy, or even higher real interest rates are not among the actual risks” facing a sovereign government. I won’t go into the details, but Krugman produced a simple model in which ever-larger budget deficits generate ever-rising prices. You can see the rest of that back-and-forth here. But the strange thing is that Krugman never actually addressed Galbraith’s points that insolvency, bankruptcy, or higher interest rates are non-issues for a sovereign government. Nor did Krugman even try to justify his claim that MMT-ers “say that deficits are never a problem”.
In fact, MMT-ers NEVER have said any such thing. Our claim is that a sovereign government cannot be forced into involuntary default. We have never claimed that sovereign currencies are free from inflation. We have never claimed that currencies on a floating exchange rate regime are free from exchange rate fluctuations. Indeed, we have always said that if government tries to increase its spending beyond full employment, this can be inflationary; we have also discussed ways in which government can cause inflation even before full employment. We have always advocated floating exchange rates — in which exchange rates will, well, “float”. While we have rejected any simple relation between budget deficits and exchange rate depreciation, we have admitted that currency depreciation is a possible outcome of using government policy to stimulate the economy.
This should have been the end of the story (although a correction by Krugman would have been nice). But, as Krugman’s post yesterday demonstrates, this apparently was not the end of the story. The misinformation continues….. and by a political ally!
Below are a few quotes from last year’s Fiscal Sustainability Teach-In and Counter-Conference, which I encourage interested readers to investigate further (Transcripts, presentation material, audio and video are available at the link).
There is no revenue constraint for governments that control the money that sits at the top of the hierarchy. Does that mean that we should spend without limit? No. No. Emphatically no. As the economy recovers, spending will need to be regulated to prevent inflation. But I would argue, and I think what we’re all here to argue today is that it’s time to stop allowing the monetary system to limit our range of policy options. It is causing unnecessary human suffering and it’s time for us to begin to recognize the advantages of a Modern Monetary System.
Spending is not constrained by revenues. Spending is changing numbers up; putting numbers into our checking accounts. Taxing is changing numbers down, taking numbers out of our checking accounts. Borrowing is moving numbers from our checking account to our savings account. There is no numerical limit to any of this. Paying interest is changing the number up in our savings account. The government can always make any payment of dollars it wants to make. This is all we’re talking about; it’s a nominal system; we’re talking about there are no nominal constraints.
The risk is inflation, and not insolvency or not-solvency; there’s no solvency risk.
The constraint as we’ve said is inflation.
*****
I’d add that there are two additional constraints: ignorance and politics.
Dear Professor Krugman, Please read your own comments threads… or better yet, read Randy Wray’s book, Understanding Modern Money: The Key to Full Employment and Price Stability, and inform yourself before you misinform your readers any further. Thank you.
*****
x-posted from my blog — selise



56 Comments

Letsgetidone has written many diaries here on the subject of MMT and deficits. I hope he will stop by and give us some links…..
Thank you for putting this together with links in one diary.
Excellent, selise.
Krugman must know better, or else his “understanding” is close to deliberately sloppy.
Frankly, selise, I think you should put this diary up on Krugman’s own blog, that Krugman might have the chance of responding … as it is too important for him to ignore, as it will, deliberately or not, confuse others and muddy the thinking and discussion we all must engage in.
DW
Yeah, that’s the problem with Mr Krugman. He accepts a bad economic model and then trys to give it a bit of liberal flair.
your welcome, and thank you for reading!
no kidding.
maybe politics?
apparently it didn’t help last july when galbraith, fulwiller and davidson (among others) left responses on krugman’s blog. doubt my comment would be read, especially when their’s weren’t.
as though we hadn’t been confused enough already. :(
maybe that’s it. hard for me to explain that his heart seems, mostly, to be in the right place while his head is not.
weird.
Useful post, selise. This makes sense as you explain it.
Well, TBH, I don’t know where his heart or head really are.
Would he still have a job at the NYT if he’d been promoting anything close to MMT for the last decade+?
And if you employ axioms that are not characteristic of our entrepreneurial economy, then the teaching will be, as Keynes noted, “misleading and disasterous”
How would Keyes characterize the axioms that Bush/Obama have been employing to the economy? “misleading and disasterous” yes but how are they dangerous and what are they misleading us too?
All this esoteric wonkish discussion at high levels of academia doesn’t really matter. What does matter is that the average person feels, instinctively, that the government cannot go on borrowing more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more money, ad infinitum, without getting into trouble.
Given the real-world results of Weimer Germany, Argentina (in what, the 70′s?), and other situations where it took a wheelbarrow of money to buy a loaf of bread, you can’t really blame them.
Sure, the US can print and inflate its way out of deficit debt, but what happens when nobody will lend us money again? And what happens to our trade deficit and domestic manufacturing problems when the cost of our goods and the amount we have to pay for imported raw materials becomes prohibitive?
I fear that Dean Baker and Galbraith and others are so desperate to defend against austerity, or to defend their own pet economic models and hypotheses, that they are unwilling to admit that a deficit problem exists. Doing so would force them to focus the fight on what to cut, and they fear losing that battle. (Not an invalid fear, given the powerful forces on the other side.) But the idea that a country without a manufacturing and export base can continue to print money and go deeper and deeper into everlasting, never-ending, infinitely growing national debt just plain defies common every day logic.
Good to see you back posting Selise.
They insist that the notion of “fiscal sustainability” or “solvency” is not applicable to a sovereign government — which cannot be forced into involuntary default on debts denominated in its own currency. Such a government spends by crediting bank accounts or issuing paper currency.
However lets just say that many holders of America’s debt are in debt themselves so rather than be forced to sell assets at lower recession prices to pay their debts they sell their T-bills and cash knowing that the value of the dollar will likely keep dropping anyway as we try and inflate our way out of debt.
Weimer Germany as Beach Populist points out above does seem to be where we are headed its a Shock Doctrine scenario.
Selise we might not be forced into bankruptcy as you argue. But maybe bankruptcy is what the Elite want maybe they want an excuse to go Shock Doctrine?
I am certain the want to pay their debts in dollars that keep losing their value.
I am certain that after this crisis debts will be determined in constant inflation adjusted dollars because banks are being just to cute trying to make millions off of pennies difference in the spreads.
thanks! although, to be fair, the explanations are not mine. i’ve just quoted some of the people who do understand what apparently krugman does not.
our intuitions don’t help us because the budgets of currency issuers are not analogous to our household budgets. thinking they are causes much of the confusion. as a place to start, i highly recommend randy wray’s excellent (and short) policy note, Teaching the Fallacy of Composition: The Federal Budget Deficit.
thanks ubetcha!
“an excuse to go Shock Doctrine?”; no excuse is needed by the PTB.
howdy TCU. re Weimer Germany, mashall auerback gave an excellent presentation at the teach-in on Inflation and Hyper-inflation and i highly recommend Rob Parenteau’s guest post at naked capitalism, The Hyperinflation Hyperventalists as well as Bill Mitchell’s blog post, Zimbabwe for hyperventilators 101. hope this helps.
IMHO the real risk is a collapse on the currency market. If the value of the dollar dives in terms of the ruble or whatever, then we’d be no better than a banana republic that’s forced to heel under the jackboots of the IMF. No better because we’d be under the same imposed rules.
i guess inflation and currency collapse are similar, i don’t mean to argue that the poster is wrong.
A rationalization to sell us on a shock doctrine vs cutting military spending is needed notice that despite no mention of taxing the rich more or cutting military spending appears in the MSM only on blogs like this the message people like Selise and us is pushing is still topping the polls as far as what a majority of the people want.
The MSM and the political Elite should be worried and need a counter argument against our message.
I will grant you Paul’s counter argument is crap but that just means they need a better message.
I expect a shock of some kind soon. Maybe a budget showdown and screams about our defaulting on our debt? Unless someone has a better idea on a shock like a terror attack? I am open to suggestions.
Still the MSM and the Political Elite want a shock want something to justify SS cuts.
I agree Selise is not wrong we don’t have to default however I think the Political elite wants to default or do something to get their hands on SS, break Unions etc.
Thank you, selise. This is an excellent piece and puts the case perfectly with great links. Yes, I’ve been blogging MMT here for more than a year now, very frequently. Paul Krugman’s emphasis on the bond markets. This post: http://my.firedoglake.com/letsgetitdone/page/2/ has a list of neo-liberal myths in it with links to posts of my own and others debunking those links.
In addition, I like these MMT-informed recent posts a lot:
http://my.firedoglake.com/letsgetitdone/2010/12/14/moodys-bring-it-on/ (This one speaks to Paul Krugman’s scare-mongering about the possibility that people won’t buy our debt)
http://my.firedoglake.com/letsgetitdone/2010/12/26/altogether-now-there-is-no-deficitdebt-problem/ (This one tries to cover the bases on why the deficit is no problem)
http://my.firedoglake.com/letsgetitdone/2011/01/19/president-obama-should-use-coin-seigniorage-now/ (This one’s relevant for people who think we can run out of money due to a lack of capacity, rather than due to silly political decisions. It expands on an idea of the estimable beowulf. It got a moderate initial response here; but led to a huge and very informative discussion at Warren Mosler’s MMT site here: http://moslereconomics.com/2011/01/20/joe-firestone-post-on-sidestepping-the-debt-ceiling-issue-with-coin-seigniorage/
http://my.firedoglake.com/letsgetitdone/2011/02/26/federal-spending-doesnt-cost-anything/ (I like this one too, because of the meme.)
http://my.firedoglake.com/letsgetitdone/2011/03/23/once-again-the-national-debt-is-congresss-fault/ (For a few months now, I’ve been emphasizing the ability of the US Government to eliminate its public debt while continuing deficit spending. There’s no necessity to do this from an MMT viewpoint. But, if we did it, it would change the political debate.)
Thanks again for this post. You did the round-up of MMT arguments against Paul Krugman’s nonsense beautifully.
Hi BP, I’ve posted a lot on this around here. If you think there’s a deficit problem, I invite you to do a post taking on this one of mine: http://my.firedoglake.com/letsgetitdone/2010/12/26/altogether-now-there-is-no-deficitdebt-problem/
I’m persuaded that there is no deficit problem, and you have not offered any arguments above that weren’t considered and discussed in my post. As for Zimbabwe, Weimar, and other bogeymen, Marshall Auerback does a very good job explaining why that’s not a problem for us here: http://www.netrootsmass.net/fiscal-sustainability-teach-in-and-counter-conference/marshall-auerback-inflation-and-hyper-inflation/
But of course TCU, if you accept MMT, there’s absolutely no reason why any changes at all, except cutting the retirement age and increasing the level of payments should be made to SS. See:
http://my.firedoglake.com/letsgetitdone/2011/03/22/moral-choices-of-the-fictional-kind-krauthammer-and-lew-on-social-security/
So, shock doctrine is certainly not a scenario supported by MMT.
Well, not really. Default means a drastic reduction in value, and perhaps even repudiation of debts. Even 4 or 5% annual price increases, would be very far from that. In other words, be very careful about drawing similarities too easily. Generalized price increases do decrease the nominal value of one’s currency, but the key question is by how much and over how many years?
I agree. One of the ways to work against them is to spread MMT, so people realize they don’t have to change SS, or starve the States fro revenue so that the Governors have an excuse to go after the Unions.
You and Selise got some great points :)
please feel free to let me know if you think i have it wrong…. jmo, but i think we’re smarter when we try to work things out together… and that means challenging each other too.
it’s all good…
thanks!
You make a critical attack on an FDL blogger in an FDL blog. read the rules.
“I fear that Dean Baker and Galbraith and others are so desperate to defend against austerity, or to defend their own pet economic models and hypotheses, that they are unwilling to admit that a deficit problem exists. Doing so would force them to focus the fight on what to cut, and they fear losing that battle. (Not an invalid fear, given the powerful forces on the other side.) But the idea that a country without a manufacturing and export base can continue to print money and go deeper and deeper into everlasting, never-ending, infinitely growing national debt just plain defies common every day logic.”
QUOTED FOR TRUTH.
Let me sum up Paul Krugman’s argument in a simple form anyone can understand:
Argentina.
But then all the MMT proponents spew millions of words that succeed in proving only 1 thing… paul krugman isn’t using MMT.
Monitoring and reacting to Krugman’s grasp of MMT – why?
The three critical “problems”, IMO, are in order of importance;
The lack of a political will to tax progressively in reaction to developments like info in a Levy Institute study stating that as ofJuly 2009, the bottom 80 percent own 12.3 percent of privately held U.S. wealth.
The risk of sustained commodity inflation, exhibited now in items such as petroleum and copper, even in the absence of strong demand spurred by economic growth. For the four fifths of the populace who are have nots, a larger percentage of their wealth must be spent on necessities priced in relation to crude oil and food prices. The lingering influence of Reagan “let the market decide” results in a predatory environment absent any energy policy prone to the effects on price of speculation and manipulation. Watch as the price of petroleum is whipsawed to wipe out investment in alternative energy initiatives. Rinse, repeat….since 1981!
The trend of the growing debt being more difficult to service via interest payments as rates sit so low, so long, with increasing likelihood they will rise, resulting in a higher percentage of total expenditures required to pay the interest.
hi host, thanks for your comment.
here’s my take on why: because it’s a v important political as well as economic issue facing us right now and krugman is misinforming his readers.
on your three points: i agree that your first two (not sure about the order though) are real problems — and ones that are addressed by some of the economists i’ve quoted. problems aren’t my only priority — so are solutions.
on your third point, how can debt be difficult to service (economically, the politics are a different issue) when the debt is is in dollars? as monopoly issuer of our currency, doesn’t the fed gov (i’m including the fed in this) have the ability to set the price (ie short term interest rates)? was the fed gov debt during ww2 difficult to service?
also, scott fullwiler has a very interesting paper you might be interested in. some of it is still above me and i have yet to spend the necessary time studying it, but since you’ve been thinking about interest rates and debt service, i think you may get a lot from it: Interest Rates and Fiscal Sustainability
(this is one of the papers listed as supplemental reading from last year’s teach-in)
Thank you, thank you, thank you, both selise and let’s!! I soo appreciate your posts, and especially at this absolutely CRITICAL time, when the PTB, both D’s and R’s, are racing headlong to drive our economy to the bottom, even after seeing how this approach didn’t work in Europe and elsewhere (but we all know WHY they want this, don’t we?) It is absolutely crucial that the pushback to deficit terrorism remains not only strong, but grows, and we all need to ramp up our responses to this BS. (And thank you for energizing my efforts, both of you! I’ve been trying to explain MMT to my circle of friends and Greens, hopefully some of it will take)
thank YOU, jw!
informed citizenry is the way to go… that way we can all participate more effectively.
Not really similar, but related? Partially:
A currency collapse will cause inflation.
But inflation can occur without a currency collapse. This is what the MMT guys are saying.
This was a great post. I’m trying to bone up on my MMT, and this added some subtlety to my understanding of these guys. (The chartalist stuff I’m still trying to work my head around, though)
I have problems with some of Krugman’s neo-liberal & free trade economic views, but politically we are on the same page.
This just confirmed it. I’ve been agreeing with him *way* too much lately, which disturbs me at times. Thanks for getting me back on track!!
Selise -
If I may, I’d like to talk about your third point. I’m going to address an economic point with a non-economic point:
Anything that cannot last forever, won’t.
Although Krugman was wrong about base MMT theory, his larger point is correct: inflation will become a big problem; even the MMT guys said this on multiple occasions.
That will cause rates on the long end of the curve to rise. Can the Fed print to keep the short end down for the gov’t & multinationals? Yes, but the longer end of the curve dictates rates for the rest of the economy. It will be harder to get student loans, auto loans, small business loans, etc.
Further, these low interest rates are fueling speculation in the commodities markets, which the Fed will have to curtail at some point. TANSTAAFL.
Regarding debt during WWII, a point that is always neglected when discussing this was the composition of the US tax base. Corporations paid *much* more in taxes, making the debt more serviceable. Today, there is the opposite situation. In fact, many corporations get tax breaks and subsidies today, meaning they are a net receiver of federal funding, rather than a tax payer.
my bold. not “will”, “can.”
but if we’re at full employment, if investment spending has been well targeted and another credit expansion is in progress, the economy is growing productively (not this asset boom and bust bs), why continue with large deficit spending (beyond what is needed to compensate for current account balance)?
why?
are the reasons political or economic?
i know that’s the conventional wisdom, but i don’t think i buy it — randy wray’s explanations make much more sense to me:
The Commodities Market Bubble
Money Manager Capitalism and the Global Financial Crisis
what do you think of wray’s arguments?
without making any comment on tax policy, i think the larger point is that tax revenues do not fund fed gov spending and so there is no issue of debt serviceability (taxes are important for other reasons).
did you read scott’s paper? what do you think about his arguments?
….. sorry for writing in haste, your questions deserve more thought than i have time for right, but i’ll stop by later (when i have more time) in case you’ve gotten this and want to continue the discussion…
“but if we’re at full employment, if investment spending has been well targeted and another credit expansion is in progress, the economy is growing productively (not this asset boom and bust bs), why continue with large deficit spending (beyond what is needed to compensate for current account balance)?”
That’s a lot that has to go right; everyone is going to have to thread the needle simultaneously for that to happen. Given our past history, it seems a given that it won’t.
But yes, if they can pull it off, you will be proven right.
As far as the long end of the curve goes, high inflation will cause interest rates to rise, almost by definition. The long end is more sensitive to inflation risk. It’s partially economic, but really its driven by all the idiots & traders in the bond market.
As for speculation, Wray seems to agree with me. I didn’t have a chance to read all of it, but the preface of the 1st article says it’s speculation:
“Wray determines that speculation, rather than fundamentals, dominates the boom in the commodity futures markets (contrary to the notions of both NYMEX and the CFTC)”
Also from the second:
“Low interest rate policy by Greenspan’s Fed meant that traditional money markets could not offer adequate returns. Investors lusted for higher risks…”
It’s funny, because I always thought it was supply and demand. It was the MMT crowd that convinced me otherwise.
As for tax policy, you may be right about taxes vs. gov’t spending. That’s one of the things I still don’t get about MMT.
Also, who is Scott? I didn’t see the paper that you mentioned.
I left econ for the world of the actuary long long ago – if I was ever in it (highly arguable to begin with). So please have a bit of patience with me and my questions below – just trying to understand – and not trying to challenge you.
As to “A currency issuing entity can not be forced to default” – well that seems like a given – except why did Argentine default?
Excess money in circulation is offset by folks just holding the money – the velocity of money decreasing – and not causing inflation – is proven by history – when the holder is a bank, but what about 1920′s Germany?
We sell debt to other countries as our trade deficit is round tripped – indeed some say our trade balance deficit provided the liquidity for world growth for many years – but now it is in excess of world growth (I think – might want to check that and indeed the entire concept of the trade deficit providing liquidity). If the concept is valid, and we are in excess of other countries need for liquidity, then why would any country not sell our debt so as to not take a haircut on their public assets via the decrease in the value of our currency?
Indeed on a more general level, what would be the logic of a country not cashing in our debt to buy other countries debt if they felt the value of our currency was going down? Granted building for the US provides jobs in that other country that would end if the US currency dropped so far as to make local production a better buy, but is this the only reason for China to hold onto our debt? Is there a tipping point?
If our currency drops by half, making our share of world GDP approximately half of what it was, does not our standard of living drop by a half also?
Seems there might be a few reasons to worry about total national debt, and about our annual trade deficit – could you explain why the above questions do not mean we should be worried about these things?
to address your two points:
1) argentina’s currency was pegged (not floating exchange rates). it’s an excellent example completely consistent with MMT and in no way an argument against MMT.
2) the problem i discussed in this diary isn’t that krugman doesn’t use MMT, it’s that he has grossly and repeatedly misrepresented it.
hi marinara,
would you please explain what incident you are referring to and what rule you think was broken in this post or comments? thank you.
maybe the mods have deleted an offending comment. if so, please let me know. it’s just that i think it likely they would have left a note on your comment in that case so readers would not be confused… but as it stands i don’t know who you are accusing of what (and if it has anything to do with me, it would be helpful to know). thanks again.
jest, thanks for coming back to the thread….
my point was not that everything had to go right, just that at full employment why should deficit spending continue beyond what is needed to compensate for current account balance?
sure, if the size of the fed deficit is too large there will be inflation, but why should the fed deficit be too large so as to cause high inflation? are you talking politics or economics?
as far as i can understand, and of course i may be misunderstanding your comment, it seems you are assuming a fed gov deficit large enough to cause high inflation. if that is correct, why are you making that assumption?
……
the scott fullwiler link is from my comment at “March 27th, 2011 at 7:25 am”
pretty much my pov as well.
p.s. thanks for the kind words.
i’m good with challenges. we’re all in the same boat, just trying to learn… :)
here are my attempts to address your excellent questions:
fixed exchange rate.
see marshall auerback’s presentation (and supplementary reading):
http://www.netrootsmass.net/fiscal-sustainability-teach-in-and-counter-conference/marshall-auerback-inflation-and-hyper-inflation/
i *think* it’s more an issue of a foreign sector with a large desire to save dollars (at least in part because of the role of the dollar as a global reserve currency). for the time being this is of great benefit to us.
i *think* it would make imports more expensive (see oil) but otherwise would not affect our real gdp (in real goods and services). i’d guess that oil and other import costs would be significant, especially compared to the free ride we’ve been getting… but i have no idea how to estimate the magnitude change in std of living. suggest asking warren mosler or bill mitchell on their blogs (they are both really nice guys and patient with questions!)
http://moslereconomics.com/
http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/
the others (randy wray, scott fullwiler, marshall auerback, stephanie kelton, rob parenteau, james galbraith, etc) you can catch at new deal 2.0, new economic perspectives from umkc and guest posting elsewhere (naked capitalism, credit writedowns among others).
i worry about fed gov deficit only insofar as it’s currently too small and not being well spent (imo).
i am not currently concerned about trade deficit 1. it’s currently a benefit, if only we’d take advantage of the opportunity. and 2) without it, we’d be exporting even more deflationary pressure on the global economy.
more here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2006/apr/21/thankyoupresidenthu1
http://www.tompaine.com/articles/apocalypse_not_yet.php
http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=5785&cpage=1#comment-1911
http://moslereconomics.com/2009/12/10/7-deadly-innocent-frauds/
……
please don’t consider me any kind of expert… i’m just a student too.
selise-
I guess you misunderstood me, because I never said that deficits cause inflation.
jest, thank you very much for the correction!
re inflation…. the MMT’ers who advocate a jobs guarantee program see it as a labor buffer stock (as opposed to the current stock of unemployed) that will help stabilize prices. the full title of randy wray’s book lets the reader know what is coming (my bold): Understanding Modern Money: The Key to Full Employment and Price Stability.
“Politics” it is, and Krugman, to his shame, is merely, when push really comes to shove, a bit-player in the Political Class whose job, one for which the Political Class is very well rewarded, is to step and fetch it for the Ruling Class.
Paul Krugman’s heart, as you say, selise, may “be”, apparently, in the “right” place, however, his mind is winning little credit for its moral compass … and regard of truth.
Continuing appreciation to you, selise, for the information you provide those willing to look and, as well, your most finely tuned BS meter.
DW
Sorry I missed this.
hi econobuzz! v glad to see you on the thread, no matter when you show up. (and i am going to try to do a follow up tonight or tomorrow morning).
“The bolded statement, as I’ll show below, is completely false”
WARREN MOSLER: “operationally, there is no such thing as the US government running out of dollars, being dependent on foreign borrowing, or potentially facing a solvency crisis like Greece”
Exactly what Krugman was talking about. MMT’ers have developed a reputation.
I’ll have to read up on this dispute a little more.
Seems somewhat fruitless for folks who largely agree on what steps we should be taken to resurrect the economy to be disagreeing on what, at this point, is largely irrelevant. (I do understand and sympathize with the part about giving in too much — even if just rhetorically — to the deficit hawks.)
Don’t quite understand why Krugman doesn’t just let the MMT folks — who are largely friendly to many of his views and positions — speak for themselves rather than (mis)characterizing what they mean.
Or am I missing something?
the rest of the quote from warren mosler includes the following:
“The risk is inflation, and not insolvency or not-solvency”
krugman was wrong to write that mmt people “say that deficits never matter” when in fact they say that they DO matter, but not as a matter of solvency.
it’s not a small point.
not missing a thing. :)
although i do think that krugman has done mmt folks a big favor because when he uses his national soapbox to talk about mmt (even if it gets it wrong) he’s making the statement in the establishment press that this is something worth talking about. gives them a bit of an opening to reach more people.