The Economics:
James K. Galbraith: In Defense of Deficits
… a big deficit-reduction program would destroy the economy, or what remains of it, two years into the Great Crisis.
For this reason, the deficit phobia of Wall Street, the press, some economists and practically all politicians is one of the deepest dangers that we face. It’s not just the old and the sick who are threatened; we all are. To cut current deficits without first rebuilding the economic engine of the private credit system is a sure path to stagnation, to a double-dip recession–even to a second Great Depression. To focus obsessively on cutting future deficits is also a path that will obstruct, not assist, what we need to do to re-establish strong growth and high employment.
L. Randall Wray: “Teaching the Fallacy of Composition: The Federal Budget Deficit”
We hear politicians and the media arguing that the current federal budget deficit is unsustainable. I have heard numerous politicians refer to their own household situation: if my household continually spent more than its income year after year, it would go bankrupt. Hence, the federal government is on a path to insolvency, and by implication, the budget deficit is bankrupting the nation.
That is another type of fallacy of composition. It ignores the impact that the budget deficit has on other sectors of the economy. Let me go through this in some detail, as it is more complicated than the other examples.
We can divide the economy into 3 sectors. Let’s keep this as simple as possible: there is a private sector that includes both households and firms. There is a government sector that includes both the federal government as well as all levels of state and local governments. And there is a foreign sector that includes imports and exports; (in the simplest model, we can summarize that as net exports—the difference between imports and exports—although to be entirely accurate, we use the current account balance as the measure of the impact of the foreign sector on the balance of income and spending).
At the aggregate level, the dollar spending of all three sectors combined must equal the income received by the three sectors combined. Aggregate spending equals aggregate income. But there is no reason why any one sector must spend an amount exactly equal to its income. One sector can run a surplus (spend less than its income) so long as another runs a deficit (spends more than its income).
Historically the US private sector spends less than its income—that is it runs a surplus. Another way of saying that is that the private sector saves. In the past, on average the private sector spent about 97 cents for every dollar of income.
Historically, the US on average ran a balanced current account—our imports were just about equal to our exports. (As discussed below, that has changed in recent years, so that today the US runs a huge current account deficit.)
Now, if the foreign sector is balanced and the private sector runs a surplus, this means by identity that the government sector runs a deficit. And, in fact, historically the government sector taken as a whole averaged a deficit: it spent about $1.03 for every dollar of national income.
Note that that budget deficit exactly offsets the private sector’s surplus—which was about 3 cents of every dollar of income. In fact, if we have a balanced foreign sector, there is no way for the private sector as a whole to save unless the government runs a deficit. Without a government deficit, there would be no private saving. Sure, one individual can spend less than her income, but another would have to spend more than his income.
While it is commonly believed that continual budget deficits will bankrupt the nation, in reality, those budget deficits are the only way that our private sector can save and accumulate net financial wealth.
Scott Fullwiler (via email):

L. Randall Wray: The Perfect Fiscal Storm: Causes, Consequences, Solutions
During the Clinton years as the government budget moved to surplus, it was the private sector’s deficit that was the mirror image to the budget surplus plus the current account deficit. This mirror image is what the Wall Street Journal had failed to recognize—and what almost no one except MMT-ers and the Levy Economic Institute’s researchers understand. After the financial collapse, the domestic private sector moved sharply to a large surplus (which is what it normally does in recession), the current account deficit fell (as consumers bought fewer imports), and the budget deficit grew mostly because tax revenue collapsed as domestic sales and employment fell.
Unfortunately, just as policymakers learned the wrong lessons from the Clinton administration budget surpluses—thinking that the federal budget surpluses were great while they actually were just the flip side to the private sector’s deficit spending—they are now learning the wrong lessons from this crash. They’ve managed to convince themselves that it is all caused by government sector profligacy.
The Politics:
James K. Galbraith: Why Progressives Shouldn’t Fall For the Deficit Reduction Trap
The fetish of long-term deficit reduction is politically poisonous — and economically pointless. In reality, we need big budget deficits. We need them now — and down the road.
… once you concede that deficits are actually bad, you’re boxed in. If you exclude Social Security and Medicare, there is no way to cut deficits seriously (short- or long-term, on unchanged economic assumptions) except by slashing the Pentagon or by raising taxes. If you had to do something, I agree, those would be better moves. But good luck. It’s not a political battle one can win.
In reality, we need big budget deficits. We need them now. We need bigger deficits than we’ve got, to stabilize state and local governments and to provide jobs and payroll tax relief. And we may need them for a long time, on an increasing scale, and in the service of a sustained investment strategy aimed at solving our jobs, energy, environment and climate change problems. To pretend that expansionary policies are needed only for now, gives all this away.
The public deficit is just the obverse of net private savings. That is, when private credit is booming, investment exceeds saving and deficits tend to disappear. That’s what happened in the 1990s. When credit collapses, deficits return. That’s what’s happening now. Large long-term deficits will occur, or not, depending only on whether we succeed in generating a new growth cycle, financed by the expansion of private credit. Policies to cut spending or raise taxes — now or for that matter in the future — contribute nothing to this goal.
Financial reform and debt relief are therefore the only paths to public deficit reduction.; It would be nice to have them, for the economy works better and people are happier when they can borrow and invest privately. But if we don’t get them, the alternative isn’t a "return to fiscal responsibility." It’s a choice between large public budget deficits that fund important and useful activities and tax relief, or large deficits because the recession, housing slump and high unemployment drag on and on, all made worse by cuts in Social Security, Medicare and other public spending.
Yes, we must defend Social Security and Medicare from Wall Street and its political agents — which now, sadly, include the Obama White House. But we’ll lose on that — and everything else — if we start by giving up the fight for an aggressive, effective, sustained and long-range economic recovery program, deficits and all.
The Banksters and You:
James K. Galbraith: In Defense of Deficits
To put things crudely, there are two ways to get the increase in total spending that we call “economic growth.” One way is for government to spend. The other is for banks to lend. Leaving aside short-term adjustments like increased net exports or financial innovation, that’s basically all there is. Governments and banks are the two entities with the power to create something from nothing. If total spending power is to grow, one or the other of these two great financial motors–public deficits or private loans–has to be in action.
For ordinary people, public budget deficits, despite their bad reputation, are much better than private loans. Deficits put money in private pockets. Private households get more cash. They own that cash free and clear, and they can spend it as they like. If they wish, they can also convert it into interest-earning government bonds or they can repay their debts. This is called an increase in “net financial wealth.” Ordinary people benefit, but there is nothing in it for banks.
And this, in the simplest terms, explains the deficit phobia of Wall Street, the corporate media and the right-wing economists. Bankers don’t like budget deficits because they compete with bank loans as a source of growth. When a bank makes a loan, cash balances in private hands also go up. But now the cash is not owned free and clear. There is a contractual obligation to pay interest and to repay principal. If the enterprise defaults, there may be an asset left over–a house or factory or company–that will then become the property of the bank. It’s easy to see why bankers love private credit but hate public deficits.
All of this should be painfully obvious, but it is deeply obscure. It is obscure because legions of Wall Streeters–led notably in our time by Peter Peterson and his front man, former comptroller general David Walker, and including the Robert Rubin wing of the Democratic Party and numerous “bipartisan” enterprises like the Concord Coalition and the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget–have labored mightily to confuse the issues.
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“In all life one should comfort the afflicted, but verily, also, one should afflict the comfortable, and especially when they are comfortably, contentedly, even happily wrong.”
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Further Reading:
Bill Mitchell, Stephanie Kelton, Warren Mosler, Marshall Auerback, L. Randall Wray, Pavlina Tcherneva: Fiscal Sustainability Teach-In and Counter-Conference
Lynn Parramore and new deal 2.0: The Deficit: Nine Myths We Can’t Afford
Warren Mosler:
Seven Deadly Frauds of Economic Policy
William Mitchell:
Barnaby, better to walk before we run
Stock-flow consistent macro models
Deficit spending 101 – Part 1
Deficit spending 101 – Part 2
Deficit spending 101 – Part 3
L. Randall Wray:
Understanding Modern Money: The Key to Full Employment and Price Stability
James K. Galbraith:
The Predator State: How Conservatives Abandoned the Free Market and Why Liberals Should Too
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x-posted from my blog – selise



86 Comments

dear mods: the extended quotes are used with the kind permission of the authors, James K. Galbraith and L. Randall Wray. the graph is used with the kind permission of Scott Fullwiler.
Thank you, selise; you have pulled the most understandable stuff and put it in one place. I sorta had a glimpse and am firming up my understanding – i may even be able to discuss!
Thanks you, selise. Great round-up of quotes and graphics from MMT, and also great application to several important relationships. Tweeted and Rec’d
Recommended! Wish we could front page it at FDL!
Selise, thank you so much for this and for all the links. It certainly does give us a plain English and simple version of the facts.
Until our Government spends and spends heavily this depressive economy will remain the same or get worse. I’m still trying to figure out why nobody in DC is going after the hostage takers from December. Maybe I am mistaken, but I thought their goal was to make the atmosphere better for business so they would invest and pick up steam on the employment end. Where are all the jobs they promised for those huge tax breaks and less regulation?
After Obama/Benito’s speech yesterday we can clearly see that he is not after the right things or entities. We the people will have to push and push hard!
you’re most welcome PeasantParty! iirc, you are one of the people who asked me to do a diary on this stuff yesterday. hope it was what you wanted….
as for your question, re their goals…. please read my next diary (i delayed it to post this one today), as i think addresses very well the bigger picture (i didn’t write it! it’s a talk that galbraith gave that i transcribed and asked his permission to post).
howdy! i’m glad if this diary helps! … i’ve been quoting a lot of this for some time, but not all in one place and these are the bits that seem to “click” with people the most… putting them together in a pseudo-narrative helps, at least it helps me, understand some of what was very wrong with president obama’s speech yesterday.
thank you let’s!
You have done most excellent. I am looking forward to your next post regarding the goals.
Great and timely choice of excerpts. It’s all so logical, compellling, so of course, no one will accept it.
I don’t know why you insist on explaining the earth is round, when the Beltway consensus is that it’s flat. If it were not flat, people in Austrailia would have drifted off into space long ago, and even Zombies and Pods know that has not happened.
The conclusion of “cut the deficit”?
Private Surplus (aka: Profits) will drop, leading to more predatory behavior by the money intent on its returns, and further offshoring of jobs to increase the trade deficit.
Here’s why
Private Saving = Government Deficit + Trade Deficit.
At 5% compound annual increase in Private Savings,
Private Saving (This year) = Private Saving (Last Year) ^ 1.05
Thus
Government + Trade Deficit (This Year ) = (Government + Trade Deficit (Last Year )) * 1.05
Trade Deficit (This Year) = Government deficit (Last Year) *.15 + Trade Deficit (Last Year) * 1.05 and
if Trade Deficit (Last Year) = Government Deficit (Last Year)
then Trade deficit (This Year ) = Trade Deficit( Last Year ) * 1.2
That’s a either a 20% or a 17.66% increase in trade deficit (depends on how the rate of increase is calculated)
Cut 10% from the Government Deficit and the Trade Deficit must make the difference in the Private Sector. Good luck with that if demand is falling due to both less Government Spending and Falling Employment (Outsourcing).
So the private surplus will collapse, and with it the economy, economy will collapse, because there is no justification for the same continued level of economic activity.
It’s a death spiral. Classic definition of exponential decay.
Ditto
Super, selise. Thank you.
LOL!
i confess i’ve had a hard time wrapping my mind around some of this… i think paradigm changes are like that — they seem bat-shit-crazy until they seem obvious.
Thanks, selise, just what I had in mind when I asked if you’d do this yesterday. I haven’t got time to read and contemplate now, because I’m headed out of town, but I’ll read over the weekend. Again, thanks!
thank you!
private surplus is not just profits. i *think* the following is correct (knut, where are you?):
private balance = household balance + non-financial firm balance + financial firm balance
also the sign for current account deficit is neg (or as here, for current account surplus, positive):
Private Sector Surplus = Public Sector Deficit + Current Account Surplus
note, this is financial assets only.
but your conclusion is exactly right: “It’s a death spiral.”
here is bill mitchell:
thanks, msmolly, for asking me to do this! i hope you will find it useful (the links too). please ask any questions you may have, and if i don’t have the answers, i will get them for you….
you are most welcome, and thank you!
i might wait until monday night or tuesday morning. not sure, but i think if i post it on the weekend, there is more of a chance that interested readers may miss it (and imo it’s a really important talk with important insights i haven’t seen anywhere else… so, i don’t want to blow a chance to share it).
I will echo some of the other comments that this should be front paged!!
I believe we are agreeing. All I’m doing is playing with the formula, and applying the republican dogma to the formula.
And then applying an example of the republican dogma, to provide a potential data point for the consequences of the republican dogma.
It illustrates the republican dogma is self-defeating, and that in the process of defeating itself we’ll all become collateral damage.
It also provides a very interesting explanation of outsourcing, because trade deficits contribute to private surplus. I am understand that profit is a component, a percentage, of private surplus.
selise,
this is really an outstanding effort and extremely informative for me.
for example, i had been thinking often about the fallacy of composition lately, taught me decades ago in macroeconomics, but could not bring the ideas back in focus.
your set of quotes included a very understandable precise on that concept.
tx
It\’s good to see you back here, Selise. Mostly because of you I\’ve been studying MMT for, what, a couple of years now. It is liberating to know that our problems aren\’t really financial, although knowing that doesn\’t make the political obstacles any less immense. To add to the syllabus here\’s an oldie But goodie from William Vickrey:
We Need a Bigger “Deficit”
thank you, i’m glad you liked it! fallacy of composition is a powerful tool… i highly recommend reading the rest of randy wray’s post — he has several other very helpful examples including one on unemployment.
wilvick! it’s good to see you too.. and i’m so v glad you have been studying MMT and related. i agree the political obstacles are immense… and hope, when i’m feeling extra optimistic, that by being a little better informed, we can better address the political obstacles. (aside, if you are possibly willing/interested in contributing what you’ve learned to a little mmt project that is just getting started, would you email me at gmail dot com? – thanks!)
that’s a great vickrey link, thanks! i guess you weren’t exaggerating when you said that you’d been studying!
thank you! it’s been at the top of the rec list for awhile now, so hopefully there’s been a chance for readers to see it (although, i know the readership at myfdl is much less than the front page).
Galbraith says growth can only be had by government spending and bank lending.
On what planet is he from? Look at the BRIC’s. Compared to the USA, they have no government spending or banks. What they are doing is growing steadily.
Second, for government debt to end up in private hands, you have to assume that individuals are paid by the government. If 158 billion (2009 bea.gov numbers) is the federal civilian payroll, what’s that? 5% of the budget? I suppose that doesn’t count medicare, but I don’t think nurses get paid 158 billion no way no how.
Rather Galbraith is wrong wrong wrong to support the Bush tax cuts. Even Obama doesn’t support them. The size of the deficit doesn’t matter, it’s what the budget is spent on that matters. Instead of spending trillions on the TSA strip searching 5 -year-old girls, we could be building power lines. But that’s the one thing the government isn’t funding.
you’re using an self-evident statement to prove your theory.
If i say lung air + non-lung air = total air.
Then I say that non-lung air increases by x process, that doesn’t mean i can’t breathe anymore.
Moderators please label this lack of education and brain function properly. I beg you.
Galbraith is saying collect taxes from the wealthy, for whom tax dollars paid will not constitute loss of immediately spent funds, but lower passive investments that do not circulate money or create jobs. He is saying government should spend on infrastructure, badly in need of replacement, and jobs promotion projects – for employees. Giving unmonitored tax or other incentives to companies is worthless; they do not use it to hire new staff in the US, they hire if at all offshore.
Bank lending drives the economy. The non-rich circulate any money they have, including credit and government subsidies, like unemployment and welfare payments, as if it were going through a goose. It circulates immediately, creating higher demand for goods and services and the jobs needed to provide them.
Trouble is, banks aren’t lending to those folks or even the modestly well-to-do. They are propping up their miserable balance sheets, lending to each other and to those for whom borrowed funds are an investment. Their spending is not circulated in the economy quickly; it creates few if any jobs.
Excellent summary of MMT – congrats! :-)
I still have many questions – how all the cogs work together is not clear to me. Our deficit, at one point, was thought to finance/provide the liquidity for other countries to grow. And the presentation “private sector’s deficit less(Gov budget surplus plus the current account deficit) = zero” says we go into debt (current account deficit = negative) when the private sector is in deficit (negative savings) and the gov is in balance. So to provide that liquidity we must have taken on a lot of debt – in order to buy stuff from China/Japan – but was that contrary to our personal interest? It certainly was contrary to jobs in the US.
Britain lived for a century on a current account positive from investment returns on investments in the colonies as her imports exceeded her exports.
We had a similar situation that reversed post Reagan – and my head is confused as to how that turn around happened – and how we get back to pre-Reagan numbers.
Why does the current situation not result in a decline in the dollar that kills our standard of living and force us to stop buying the imports? Why are we not now a 3rd world economy? Why are we all not invested in bonds from Japan given its current account surplus and massive debt and large personal savings?
That is classic and that I understood – and agree with! :-)
The BRIC’s have large banks plus US banks are lending into the BRIC areas.
I agree – what is spent on is more important than total spending as the multiplier effect varies greatly (following the velocity of the money if you like).
I agree -
I must learn to read the comments before I jump in!
Excellent diary Selise and thank you. Rec’d of course.
But here is an issue I’d point out: No one is listening that has access and REAL input into either the FED or Treasury or Obama Admin.
Think about how all those who signed that MOU re ‘deficits’ EXCEPT for Stiglitz are able to converse with Congress Critters and officials at the Fed,Treasury, and Obama Admin. And today you have Summers repeating the lie that ‘financial innovation’ had nothing to do with the ‘financial crisis’.
My point is that if ‘being right’ doesn’t get the results needed, then ‘being right’ doesn’t matter.
the role of taxes is more complicated under the paradigm i’m attempting to use (usually referred to as MMT) and would really take another diary, or three. for now i’ll just say that raising revenue is NOT the purpose of federal taxes and give a couple of links:
first is the link to galbraith’s march 8, 2011 statement to the senate finance committee hearing on “Principles of Efficient Tax Reform.” here is his summary:
second, here is a bit from the 1946 article by Beardsley Ruml, former Chairman of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, “Taxes For Revenue Are Obsolete” from an article written by warren mosler (i highly recommend his short book, listed above under “further reading”):
We Will Oppose Obama As Long As He Supports War
http://warisacrime.org/petition/56390
Bruce, I think that being right is a start. Then there’s good messaging. Then the financial power to get the message through all the noise out there. Then the there’s the movements to get the politicians to start using and voicing the message. And then, there’s the real fight to get it accepted. But being right is a start. And getting people here conversant with it is a bigger start. There’s no way around doing it one step at a time.
thank you!
from my pov…. an informed citizenry is required for any kind of self government. our elites are failing us and i have very little interest in appealing to them (especially as it’s quite possible at least some of them do know this stuff).
imo we’re going to need a social movement to force some accountability and responsibility on to our political leaders.
from step one (bill moyer’s, doing democracy)
just trying to help with step one….
i have lots of questions too! it’s been a learning process which so far has meant unlearning most of what i thought i “knew.” imo that’s much harder to do than to learn something from a fresh start.
since you have more questions than i can possibly address (if i even knew all the answers!), i’ll just give some links to blogs where helpful writers and commenters are available to help (there are more but this will get you started):
the center of the universe
billy blog
new economic perspectives at umkc
mike norman economics
I understand the idea of a “step one” but there’s a real need to move beyond it; let me suggest that this platform is worth exploring:
http://www.livestream.com/deepakhomebase
View the episode about GE Alfalfa; the same points we confront about ‘economics/budget/”deficits” are mentioned.
Joe, you, Masaccio, me, Jon Walker, others all have written a lot about those subjects and while I recognize that organizing ‘progressives’ is like herding cats, there needs to be someone like Sanders, Feingold, Kucinich, someone with large media visibility needs to get ‘onboard’.
signed via the email sent to me; thanks.
The only “distribution” of wealth the Beltway Pillagers are interested in is an upward one.
I would support tax policy designed with those purposes in mind. But it seems to express a public policy-for-the public good form of government that has wandered off the reservation.
endangered species, hopefully not extinct. :)
At the simplest level, raising tax and customs revenue is the meat and potatoes of government income. You’re describing a more sophisticated view of tax policy that looks at it as the mechanism to reward or punish, to promote or inhibit, various forms of economic behavior. The unspoken issue in the US is what kinds of behavior merit the government inhibiting or rewarding it and why.
I think that’s an essential debate worthy of another post. The choices being made today promote very narrow liability-free corporate behavior that distances the engines of growth from the growth of the US economy. That is very lucrative for the country club set, but destroys opportunities available to others.
The usual scream from the Right and many Democrats is that it’s not the government’s role to inhibit or promote behavior, but to get out of the way. That’s a false framing, which hides a deliberate policy of using government resources generally, not just tax policy, to reward the few and discard the many.
i’d rather have a scarecrow than any of the people you list.
someone like naomi klein, though, i think would be great (and iirc, i’ve seen some comments on mmt blogs that i thought might be her, but i can’t find them now… so i don’t know).
at the risk of making your head explode (i know this sounds bat-shit-crazy, or at least it did to me at first), this hasn’t been so for the federal government since we went off the gold standard (and have floating exchange rates).
the fed gov is the currency issuer. it doesn’t need to raise revenue to fund anything (other than political constraints we’ve imposed on ourselves… i’m referring only to the economic constraints here).
this is not so for state and local governments which, like us, are currency users. they, and we, must have revenue (or borrow or sell assets) in order to spend.
…. so there are two major issues:
one is the economic/operational. taxes don’t fund fed gov spending (in fact, as a matter of logic the fed gov must spend in order to collect taxes). taxes do however, create the demand for dollars — since dollars can be used to extinguish tax liabilities (and also, by law, bank loans).
the second is political. how do we define public purpose (not everyone sees this the same way)? how do we choose to use taxes in support of public purpose?
but in order to make wise choices for #2, we have to have a good understanding of #1. and we just don’t. myths, gold standard thinking, false analogies (thinking that household budgets are analogous to fed gov budgets) have all confused the issue and us.
please don’t give up on me yet, if this all sounds too crazy. all i ask is taht you keep your mind open (and skeptical) and that you don’t reject these ideas until you really understand them. i’ll do what i can to help with the understanding part.
if you are willing to explore this a bit further, i can’t recommend mosler’s little book highly enough (and the pdf is online, so you don’t even have to pay for it). it’s a fast and fun read (with amusing stories that include people you know: summers, gore and others).
agree completely. that’s a great way to put it.
You may be agreeing, but in hopes of making this clear to everyone, I’d like to call attention to another perspective on the identity.
Felipe Rezende and Stephanie Kelton also express it as: http://neweconomicperspectives.blogspot.com/2009/06/congressional-budget-offices-long-term.html
The US has, for a long time, run a negative current account balance — a trade deficit (imported more than we exported). Assuming we have a negative current account balance again in 2011 and estimating it as -3.5% of GDP, and also assuming that our private sector would like to save about 5% of GDP, then one can see this REQUIRES a Government deficit of 8.5% of GDP or, roughly $1.2 T. Now let’s say our politicians won’t have this, so they deliberately try to shrink this deficit. This means that either the negative current account balance must get smaller, or the positive private sector balance (a surplus, net savings) must get smaller or both.
So, the question is: do we really want these other two sectors to get smaller? In particular, do we want the private sector to either save less or increase its debt?
Let’s say we think that we absolutely must close the deficit, and try our best to cut imports so that the current account balance slips to -2%. Then if private savings are to stay the same, we’re still looking at a -7% Government balance (a deficit).
So, let’s say we want a +2% Government balance (a surplus) and now we bite the bullet; we do whatever it takes to close that 9% gap between what we have and what we want, then what are the consequences. Well neglecting any increased safety net costs (which would be there, and would tend to widen the Government deficit), we would need not only to “wipe out” all the assumed private sector savings, but we would cause the private sector not only to lose its 5% of GDP in desired savings, but also to incur an additional 4% of GDP in private debt.
So, the push for austerity in a quest for balanced budgets and surpluses is a way of beggaring people in the private sector by forcing it to undergo further debt expansion, while sending net financial assets into the Government sector for destruction. The private sector may be able to do that for a time. But eventually there will be a debt bubble and after that a crash of the economy. Such are the wages of austerity.
Naomi nailed it long ago BUT -and I’ve no problem with you wanting a scarecrow rather than anyone I mentioned- she’s not an ‘establishment’ figure. That’s what I’m trying to suggest; that some/anyone that is an establishment figure ‘get on the bandwagon’.
The only example I can think of as an analogy is Koussa of Libya;he was part of the Gaddafi regime and now is trying to be part of the Libyan Transnational Council(though they don’t want any part of him).
I think I’ve seen them on billyblog very frequently. Comments by one nklein. Seeing those comments, I’ve often speculated whether she was a regular reader.
Thanks Selise. Lots of good stuff here.
Comparing it with Obama’s budget speech the other day, you can really see where he goes off the rails into neoliberal land.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgJiHxRv2M0
Starting at around 9:50 in the vid of his speech:
“Now that our economic recovery is gaining strength, Democrats and Republicans must to come together and restore the fiscal responsibility that served us so well in the 1990′s.”
“We have to live within our means.”
“We have to reduce our deficit, and we have to get back on a path that will allow us to pay down our debt.”
“Even after our economy recovers, our government still will be on track to spend more money than it takes in thru out this decade and beyond.”
His basic pitch seems to be that we need to destroy the economy to build a better future for our children. Of course he doesn’t say “destroy the economy”, but calling for the paying down of the national debt via budget surpluses will have the same effect.
guess not:
http://baselinescenario.com/2010/02/01/budget-sense-and-nonsense/#comment-41572
still, i wish…. she writes like a dream, has the connections and the cred to be taken seriously by alternative media (democracy now!, etc) which, imo, is more important at this point than an establishment figure.
thanks captjjyossarian, you’ve quoted some of the bits that infuriated me the most.
it was obama’s speech (and the responses to it and my comments) that prompted me to post these quotes today. (i actually had another diary already to go, but delayed posting it).
Thanks for the links!
:-)
served us so well in the 1990′s??????????
Clinton saw what was coming – so when the MOTU started to push interest rates up – with Greenspan among the leaders of that push – Clinton was able to stop them via playing on one of their beliefs – that fear of gov overspending meant fear of inflation which meant interest rates must go up causing inflation – he was ending the deficit and ended up with paying down the debt.
He was also killing the incentive to push money overseas by enforcing IRS Code 482 so that foreign made anything could not excessively absorb your US Tax liability.
Low interest rates meant money was made and that money got invested in the US and jobs were created. Hillary spoke of going back to the process, but Obama never took up the cause except as rhetoric.
If the Obama “live within our means” is part of a change to tax law incentives to send capital and jobs overseas, his plan may work – perhaps for the wrong reasons – not from understanding MMT theory – but I’ll take any job creation change obtained.
Just looking for a spot to post this.
Read Baseline’s health comments – he refers to health economists – sadly does not seem to know who are the experts here – the health actuaries – and therefore accepts some stupid and hurtful to the public ideas like “bigger deductibles/co-pays”.
As to
http://baselinescenario.com/2010/02/01/budget-sense-and-nonsense/#comment-41572
I too wish it was Naomi – I put her book on each of my grandchildren’s media players – and looked fearsome enough at them that they have all read (listened to) at least major parts of the book. :-)
President Obama was refering to ‘fiscal responsibility’, Clinton’s turning the deficit into a surplus. Never mind that the surplus was related to private households going further into debt.
Today, private households going further into debt would seem a bad idea.
the money quote, from yves smith at naked capitalism:
[ All the President’s Captors Frank Rich, New York Times. Directionally correct, but still far too kind to Obama. I met a law school classmate of Obama’s last week, and heard the long form version of reports on his conduct then: he’d get up and consistently make completely pedestrian, middle of the road comments (his classmate put them on the order of “rain is wet”). ]
the above is in smith’s voice, not rich’s and is from here:
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2010/12/links-12510-2.html
Under Clinton incomes rose for the non-rich for the first time since the 70′s – so the debt was no problem – indeed the first sign of a problem in the Bush years was housing getting to a price that was an unreasonable multiple of annual income for the buyer.
captjj, I’ve discussed these parts of the speech here: http://my.firedoglake.com/letsgetitdone/2011/04/13/its-all-in-the-framing-and-thats-terrible/
The household debt was no problem in the Clinton years?
Aren’t you assuming that incomes would remain high even after the tech bubble burst?
This seems a bit like say that everything would have been fine if the bubble didn’t burst.
The dot com bubble burst in 99 – in 2000 it had little effect
indeed studies show that the bubble affected only a tiny part of the economy
It was Bush and job outsourcing that put 500,000 US computer degree’d programmers into other activities and types of jobs. And that reflected Clinton’s use of the tax code versus Bush not using it to dampen the outsourcing urge. Job outsourcing occurred under Clinton – but the flood gates were open under Bush.
And yes – private debt levels were not a problem under Clinton. Greenspan urged all to go to variable interest rates – but those with fixed rate debt found real after inflation incomes stopped advancing under Bush but debt payout was not a problem under the Clinton average pay levels and those pay levels took 8 years under Bush to drop about $2000 per year (after inflation adjustment) for those making under 75,000 – a manageable change, esp. given the fact that nominal pay was actually a tiny bit higher (it is the inflation adjustment that shows the decrease in the standard of living for the non-rich under Bush).
take a look at the scott fullwiler’s chart above. the blue line, representing private sector balance goes down from a high in 1992, going negative and staying there for almost 4 years. the private sector balance briefly went positive until going negative again in 2004.
that is the deficit that matters — in the private sector. and we know from the accounting identities above that gov sector surpluses drain financial assets from the private sector (especially in the case of a current account deficit).
here is a bit from my previous post, Why Paul Krugman, and we, need to take MMT economists seriously.
one other thing of note is the historical pattern of gov sector surpluses.
from l. randall wray via naked capitalism:
Papau, throw me some links. Because when I look back at the private debt numbers they are Ok around 1996 but absolutely boom around 2000. The thing about private debt is that it has limits. Eventually you run into a ceiling.
http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/statistics/historical/gands.txt
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?DocID=200&Topic2id=20&Topic3id=23
Not defending the shrub, I think we all agree that his policies were bad news. Clinton was noticably better on income inequality but both were rather horrid on trade. Clinton inherited a 70 Billion trade deficit and expanded it to 370 Billion. Shrub inherited that 370 Billion trade deficit and expanded it to 759 Billion.
Thanks! I’ll check it out.
wow. thanks for the link.
Can you point me toward something to read that would help me understand the argument that there is a necessary inverse relationship between the private savings rate and the government deficit? Is this just to say that the only alternative would be for some private entities to be borrowing, at any point in time, the same aggregate amount that other private entities are saving (i.e., the young might in general be borrowing from the capital previously amassed by the old)? Why, as a purely economic matter, is it essential for the government to be involved in this equation at all?
hi texan99,
thanks for your questions!
for your first question, do you know basic accounting (how to do simple double entry bookkeeping)? if not that will help.
for your second question, i think it will help to distinguish between the gov and private roles in money creation. here is an excellent summary from tom hickey:
http://moslereconomics.com/2010/04/04/tom-hickey-on-mmt/
for your third question, i recommend reading about a simple example: the buckaroo system at umkc that is used to teach the students things like how the govt must spend before taxes are collected (and other non-intuitive aspects of our monetary system).
http://neweconomicperspectives.blogspot.com/2009/07/berkshares-buckaroos-and-bear-dollars.html
http://neweconomicperspectives.blogspot.com/2009/08/how-to-implement-true-full-employment.html
please let me know if this is not what you were looking for and i’ll try again.
Thanks for the links, which I’ll go read now. But re my first question, though I understand the concept of double-entry bookkeeping, I’m unclear on its connection to the argument that there is a necessary inverse relationship between private savings and government deficit. If the government were the only source of credit, I could see it. I could also see why there might be an inverse relationship between savings in one part of the private sector and deficit spending in another part of the private sector, financed via loans between the two groups. Could you shed some more light on this part, please? Thanks for your trouble.
Perhaps these will help:
http://mikenormaneconomics.blogspot.com/2011/02/all-money-emanates-from-govt.html
http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=11218
http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=12022
http://neweconomicperspectives.blogspot.com/2009/07/sector-financial-balances-model-of_26.html
http://neweconomicperspectives.blogspot.com/2010/11/yes-government-bonds-add-to-private.html
Thanks — those are helpful. I gather the idea is that all money is inherently a government activity, and in that sense the government can be viewed as the only lender to the private sector, which is why private sector would bear an inverse relationship to the government deficit.
Why all money should be considered inherently a government activity is harder for me to understand. Money is a promise, which normally needs someone more financially stable than Joe Blow the private borrower to back up in order for the promise to be very credible (and therefore of continuing value). But a sovereign government is by no means the only backer available for a private promise; in the past, merchant bankers performed this function. Anyone with a big pile of assets and a credible reputation will do. For that matter, informal I.O.U.’s exchanged among private citizens are a kind of money, even if they’re just scribbled on napkins. Even the first link you provided above points out that the big investment banks make their own money all the time, in essence by exchanging promises.
excellent! you are already way ahead of most then.
i’ll try:
the relationship is between private sector net savings and govt deficit.
looking only at the private sector, the assets and liabilities net to zero.
does that help? if not, please let me know and i will type out a bit from randy wray’s book (link above under further reading) that i think would be more clear.
p.s. no trouble! i like questions and even challenges. imo, these are important topics that need discussing – thanks!
please see my comment @ April 17th, 2011 at 7:13 pm… and if that doesn’t clear up your questions, please let me know!
I think I begin to see what you mean, when you refer to the private sector net savings and the government deficit.
If part of the private sector (such as older citizens who have amassed wealth) is typically lending to another part of the private sector (such as young people starting businesses), and that tends to net to zero, why is there any need for a government deficit? Or to put it another way, if you imagine an economy in which the government had a strictly limited role, and almost everything was privatized, so there was a very low taxation rate, wouldn’t the private sector generate plenty of its own financial assets, without needing the government to add financial assets by running a deficit? Don’t the private citizens generate lots of financial assets with the increased after-tax income, more than enough to make up for the kind of financial assets that represent a deficit-running government’s spending more than it takes in in taxes?
Something else I don’t understand is why, if a government deficit is beneficial, we don’t just let the government spend whatever it likes and take in no taxes at all?
and financial liabilities. the net financial assets still = 0.
the problem(s) with this are explained by bill mitchell in the link under further reading, “Barnaby, better to walk before we run”.
inflation.
taxes are what give value, and create demand for, the currency (dollars).
also, taxes help regulate aggregate demand (as do govt deficits).
did you read the links in my earlier response to umkc’s buckaroo program? i think they address these questions. but if not, i suggest you also read the transcript (or better yet watch the video) for warren mosler’s presentation at at the teach-in (link under further reading).
….
i think these links will address most of your questions, but if you read them and they don’t please ask again.
I get you now, I think: taxes give value to the currency in the same sense that my income gives value to my unsecured I.O.U.: it makes people think I have some credible way of paying off my I.O.U. someday. If people believe my I.O.U. will be paid someday, there can be a demand for accepting it as payment or even trading in it so that it pays of other debts indirectly. Similarly, people around the world will accept U.S. dollars as payment if they think that someday the U.S. government will raise tax revenue sufficient to cover the debt represented by the outstanding currency, and that creates a demand for U.S. currency.
I’m going to go read some more of your links now, to see if I can understand a couple of questions: (1) why it would be a problem for the net private sector financial assets to balance out at zero, and (2) why, if a spending-spurred deficit leads to inflation (as I always assumed it would), a deficit is still a good thing (i.e., why the benefit from the added financial assets is not exactly cancelled out by the detriment of inflation).
Thanks for your patience in answering my questions and continuing to provide me with links. I’m sure I’m making you think I want the same questions answered repeatedly, but sometimes the information is not sinking in, or it’s taking me a while to grasp unfamiliar concepts, or I’m not used to using the words the same way they’re used in economics.
nope. that’s not it at all.
i think you are trying to use individual (or household) as analogous to gov. they are not analogous in this way — not at all.
please see warren mosler’s explanation (suggested reading from prior comment)
i think the links i already gave you will answer that question. but if not, please let me know.
nope. this is not so.
you asked “we don’t just let the government spend whatever it likes and take in no taxes at all?”
deficit spending only leads to inflation under certain circumstances (unlimited government spending and no taxation, as in your question, would be very bad).
it is not the case that deficit spending creates inflation under any or all circumstances.
no problem. happy to.
no, actually i think you probably haven’t read the links yet… :)
i’d be surprised if it didn’t (at least that is my experience, and i’m still working on developing my understanding).
imo, this material is VERY non-intuitive because we have all kind of unexamined assumptions (for example that gov spending, taxation, etc can be understood by analogy to our own spending, income, etc — when, in fact, the analogy doesn’t just work, it leads to all kinds of misunderstandings).
i do think though, that if you read the material from my links (it’s not a lot of reading), and try to think it through logically and skeptically from the beginning (this includes treating all previously unexamined assumptions with the same skepticism as the new material), you will find it very enlightening and interesting.
good luck!
I have been diligently trying to read all the links. I confess that when I get to the comments, there’s usually someone there refuting them, and I understand the refutations much more easily than the original posts.
OK, since it seems to knock us off topic for me to analogize to families, let me try the question this way: When you say that “taxes are what give value, and create demand for, the currency (dollars)” (your 8:18 post), do you mean that people will consider the currency valuable (and therefore demand it) to the degree that they believe taxes will be collected some day to pay down some or all of the deficit? (That’s what I understood both from what you said and from what I read in your links.) If not, what do you mean by saying that taxes give value to the currency and create demand for it? That seems like a pretty basic point, and I don’t want to misunderstand you (or your links) about it before I try to go further.
no.
there is no “pay down some or all of the deficit” and i’m quite sure that nothing of that sort is in the links, or their comments for that matter, that i listed above for this topic (the first part of warren mosler’s presentation at the teach-in and the buckaroo system at umkc).
please read the links. they will explain (with two different examples) that’s why i gave you the links. :)
seriously, please read the links. they are exactly on point re your question. i’m happy to answer any questions you may about the material in the links… AFTER you have read them. (again, they are not v long – although too long for me to cut and past here).
Do you mean this:
“The government does not “need” the public’s money in order to spend; rather, the public needs the government’s money in order to pay taxes. This means that the government can buy whatever is for sale in terms of its money merely by providing it.”
That seems to bear some relation to your statement that “taxes are what give value, and create demand for, the currency (dollars).”
Or maybe this: “In summary, governments issue money to buy what they need; they tax to generate a demand for that money; and then they accept the same money in payment of the tax. If a deficit results, that just lets the population hoard some of the money. If the government wants to, it can let the population trade the money for interest earning bonds, but the government never needs to borrow its own money from the public. . . . This does not mean that the deficit cannot be too big, that is, inflationary. . . .”
yep!
OK, so you say that deficits are good, but it’s a bad idea to create one by spending a lot and hardly taxing at all. Part of the explanation for that statement seems to be that “taxes are what give value, and create demand for, the currency (dollars).” Another part of the explanation seems to be that taxes “generate a demand for that money [that the government issues].” So what’s the bad thing that happens if the government doesn’t tax? There won’t be enough demand for the money? People won’t value or demand the currency? Inflation will result?
Please don’t tell me to read the links again! I keep reading them, but they’re not answering these questions. I’m hoping you can. If not, well, thanks for your attention, and you will have resolved a lot of my doubts, anyway.
don’t think i said any such thing. your question was “take in no taxes at all” and that is the question i was responding to (there’s a big difference between “no taxes at all” and “low taxes”).
if there is no taxation, what happens in mosler’s example of business cards as currency? what would happen in the buckaroo example?
from your comment @ April 18th, 2011 at 4:32, i thought you had not read either the mosler link or the buckaroo links. was i wrong, had you read those links? if you’ve read them, do you understand them?
just my opinion, but i think understanding the examples in the links (and how they might apply and not apply to the dollar world we live in) will answer your question re no taxation.
at the very least it is necessary to replace the false analogy of the individual (or household) with alternative simple examples that are in some ways truly analogous to the fed govt. and any explanation i can give you relies on you first understanding the two examples (mosler’s business cards and the buckaroo system) and especially how they are analogous to fed govt taxation and spending.
do you feel you understand both examples?
if so…
1) what are the analogous situations to no (dollar) taxation by the fed govt in the example of mosler’s business cards as currency? of buckaroos as currency?
2) what do you think would be the result of no taxation in mosler’s example of business cards as currency and in the example of buckaroos as currency?
if you don’t feed you understand the examples… please feel free to ask questions about them.
i’m not trying to be a hard ass, but i can’t do your thinking for you.
********
edit on 4/19/11 5:45p PDT
NOTE to texan99 @ April 19th, 2011 at 10:42 am: thank you very much for your follow up comment. i would like to reply, but it appears comments have closed on this thread (although i can still edit my comments). if you wish to continue our discussion, as i do, we can take it to my blog (from which this is a cross post). will plan to reply to your comment there tomorrow morning…..
http://www.netrootsmass.net/2011/04/usg-deficits-the-economics-the-politics-the-banksters-and-you/
I didn’t think you were trying to be a hard ass. I have read all the links you posted, as well as the links that commenter letsgetitdone posted. Do I understand them? Well, I’m trying, but that’s what I was asking questions about. I’m also trying to remove from my questions any analogies to households, because that always derails the conversation.
OK, we’re going to go Socratic, where you teach by asking questions. That sometimes works. What is the analogous situation to no (dollar) taxation in Mosler’s example of business cards as currency and in the example of buckaroos as currency? Let me start with the buckaroo part, and see if I understand that first. I guess, if the government didn’t impose a tax, the students wouldn’t have to pay the tax with buckaroos. If they didn’t have to accumulate buckaroos for this purpose, then they wouldn’t do their “service-learning” hours unless they thought there was another good reason to do them, independent of the government’s demand. They presumably would spend their hours studying, working at part-time jobs for pay, or doing volunteer work for the community in order to get personal satisfaction or improve their training or their resumes. The tax in this thought-experiement would then represent the government’s demand that the students do work for which they would not receive any compensation of the ordinary kind (wages), which in the non-buckaroo world would enable them to buy stuff like books and housing and food. That might mean that the “buckaroo” tasks the government wanted to get done didn’t get done.