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Posted below, with kind permission of the author, is the transcript (see note below) of James K. Galbraith’s talk to the Association for Evolutionary Economics (AFEE) session of the Allied Social Sciences Association (ASSA) meeting on January 9, 2011. Please see the source link at UTIP for the audio, which I highly recommend. — selise
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This is joint work with Jing Chen and it’s work in progress addressed to a question that we believe has not be adequately dealt with, in fact barely dealt with at all, in any major tradition — neither in the mainstream nor in the Keynesian or progressive responses to the crisis so far.
The question that we are addressing, that we would like to address, is to the implications of rising resource costs for economic systems in general and for the structure of economic society.
Our approach is to treat the economy as having the same form as a biophysical system — something that it obviously does — insofar as economic life is part of human life and involves interaction between organized society and the natural world.
The meaning of this idea, in essence, is that you have to be able to get more value out of your environment than it costs to extract it. Otherwise, you cannot live.
That is true for any form of living organism and it ought to be true, certainly is true, for society as a whole.
The key to extracting resources in an efficient way is to make an investment, that is to say, to build up that part of the economic system which works on the basis of essentially fixed physical resource costs.
And the appropriate analytical framework for thinking about this issue is therefore very much akin to the Marshallian theory of the firm and its treatment of diminishing and increasing returns — topics which seem to have dropped out of economic thinking in modern times but which were, of course, very much alive in the early days of the Keynesian revolution with Allyn Young and Nicholas Kaldor talking about, in particular, the importance of increasing returns.
A system which operates with a high level of fixed costs, that is to say, with a substantial prior investment can achieve a high level of efficiency at a high rate of utilization. To get there you have to have a perspective that involves thinking ahead for a long duration, that is to say, making plans and investments in systems that are expected to last a long time. And for that you have to have a reasonably low uncertainty about the implications of making those investment decisions.
These systems reach their maximum profitability when resource costs are relatively low and thus we think it is not accidental that the Keynesian era debuted in the 1930′s and was able to be pursued for 30 or 40 years without significant interruption because this period occurred in the moment in world economic history when the cost of resources fell by an unprecedented extent. That is to say, we had massive discoveries of cheap energy, of oil and other resources as well as the addition of other ways of extracting energy from the environment, provided you made sufficiently high front end investments.
On the other hand, systems of this kind are quite fragile and vulnerable to rising resource costs. Why? Because physically they require the same level of resources and therefore the cost of operating them rises proportionately to the cost of extracting the energy, the underlying resources, in real terms.
Systems which operate with very low fixed costs and a much higher proportion of variable costs are, on the other hand, more flexible, they’re more resilient. They can contract and expand with the changes in the cost of resources. And therefore they are more likely to survive in a form that is recognizably similar to what they are presently in the face of rising resource costs.
But, they are much less efficient and they operate at a much lower standard level of living.
It is not a smooth transition to move from a system that is built up on the basis of high fixed cost to one which does not have those high fixed costs. It is, on the contrary, abrupt, brutal, and may well involve the disappearance necessarily of a large part of the population supported by the system.
You can think about this in practically any context that you can imagine, and Jing Chen is very ingenious in coming up with examples so I will not tread on that territory by giving too many of them.
But, just as a very simple and intuitive matter, think about transportation systems. You have a network of trains or a network of aircraft that require certain functions to be performed on a continuous basis in order for the system to operate. Such a system will be vulnerable to disruption in the face of relatively small increases in the cost of resources, or for that matter, diminution in the expenses necessary to keep the system going, such as de-icers in airports, for example, in the face of a storm, something which I think everybody with recent experience in Europe probably has some acute and unpleasant memories of in the not very distance past.
On the other hand, if the transport system is built on low fixed cost, say based on animal transport, something you can still observe on the island of Cuba incidentally, you will find that it is not that vulnerable to disruption. On the other hand, it does not provide you with anything like the extent of the services that you can extract from one which has been built up on a heavy investment.
To take an example from an almost seemingly entirely different sphere, consider the dynamics of human reproduction. We have made it very expensive to raise children. The investment required to bring them up to a functioning standard in our society is very, very high. It involves a massive education, massive adaptation to the various systems that we have created, in order to function at a high level in that society. For many people, it is not worth it.
Is it therefore a surprise that many people choose to have fewer and fewer children, or none at all? You can have a much higher living standard if you are not raising a kid — still higher if you are not raising four kids, as some of us are.
On the other hand, in low fixed cost societies, the economics are entirely different and we argue that is a reasonable first approximation explanation for the demographic dynamics in which richer societies have much lower reproduction rates than poorer ones.
Think about the problem of system collapse. It becomes possible within this framework to conceptualize what has happened, and what is happening on an ongoing basis, in the last 30 years in a single unified way. The first major full scale system collapse of the modern era was the USSR in 1991.
Why did it happen? We have become accustomed to not thinking about it, to conceptualizing it, if we think about it at all, as an ideological matter.
But, we would argue, it makes much more sense to consider that the USSR was a single integrated high fixed cost industrial system which operated with very little flexibility in the face of rising resource costs. And given the inefficiency with which resources were extracted and the cost of doing so, it is not surprising that it was very, very fragile.
The question of the Japanese lost decade or two has been extensively explored, but not from this point of view. It was always an article of faith of my generation that Japan was the example of the society — of the proof — that you didn’t need to have access to resources in order to be a prosperous society.
But that was true in a period when resources, the real cost of extracting them, was much lower than it is now. And Japan, not having its own control of resources, has to pay the market price. And one plausible argument is that in a society which is built up and very advanced, the rising cost of resources put such pressure on profitability that even though living standards didn’t collapse in Japan, profitability did. And you get the indicators of a long term and uncorrectable, effectively, economic environment.
What are we going through in Europe and in the United States as we speak?
Is it possible that we are facing, to some degree, a very similar environment in which the conflicts associated with higher real costs of resources are beginning to be played out in the political system? Is there any evidence for this? Well, one of things to remember is that just in advance of the financial crisis, there was a period for a number of months when the oil price went up to $140 a barrel and that had to do with the fact that the swing producers were in a position to control the price, essentially in conjunction with speculative traders in the financial markets.
And so they were able to bring what appeared to be a resource that was running into its physical limits to a point where the price was essentially out of relationship to the current cost of production.
And at the time, in the spring and summer of 2008, those of us who were fully aware that there was an impending financial crisis, for reasons related largely to the fraudulent character of American housing finance markets, were also practically equally concerned about the economic consequences of the run up in oil prices. That tended to have gotten lost in the subsequent history because the oil price came back down again. But there it is.
What are the policy choices when you think about the problem in these terms?
Well, it seems to me basically there are three broad ways of approaching it and then I will stop and let Jing Chen give you a little more depth of the argument we have been trying to make.
The first way to approach it is to break the system, to try to move from a high to a low fixed cost environment. The way you do that, of course, is by destroying the institutions that support the system: government, the social welfare system, the infrastructure. The way you do that is by cutting its budget.
It seems to us that it is obvious that there is a very powerful movement, perhaps of overwhelming power going on right now, to do precisely that in every advanced country that you can think of, in the UK, in the United States, in Europe.
Why?
Is it going to be our argument that this is entirely based upon an ideological predilection or stupidity? It seems to me, that is not necessarily adequate. One has to understand, perhaps, that this is one approach which would preserve, at least, the predatory profitability of certain parts of the private system. Although the cost is forcing everybody to live at a much lower standard and the system effectively being able to support far fewer people.
The second way to approach it, which we might call the Chinese model, is to run the system at a loss. The Chinese industrial system largely runs at a loss. Vast numbers of enterprises continue to operate although they have never made a profit, that wouldn’t know how to make a profit, and their losses are absorbed by the banking system which is supported by the state.
The difficulty of that system, something the Chinese authorities understand very well, is that it gives you no control over the rents that are earned by the people who control the scarce resource, namely energy.
What is the approach of China in the face of that? It is to put as much energy as possible under long term contract. Something which they are doing as systematically as is possible in order to make the system continue for as long as it can.
And the third, which might be called the Nick Stern approach, or the approach of progressive, environmentally conscious economists, is to try to rebuild and reconfigure the system to make the long term investments that would be required to keep the rising costs of resources under control by moving from higher cost resources to lower cost resources and by conserving the resources you have available to the maximum extent possible and dealing, not incidentally along the way, with the deferred cost of resources associated with climate change.
That is a hugely demanding agenda. It is being presented to us by our friends at the Union of Concerned Scientists. I heard Nick Stern talking about this two nights ago — to an audience of economists. It is very clearly what they have in mind. But, you have to ask what institutional and policy frameworks can conceivably get us from here to there.
It is not something which can, in the ordinary course of events, yield high private profits unless institutions are created which make it profitable for private actors to do so. And it is not something which can easily be done in the face of private control over large parts of the energy supply sector because, once again, pressure on that sector generates rents which cannot, under those conditions, be turned to the problem of investing. It’s not something that’s going to happen in an environment of uncertainty and doubt about the potential effectiveness of the scheme.
If there is a fourth option, I’d be happy to hear it.
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Further Reading:
Chen, Jing and Galbraith, James K., Institutional Structures and Policies in an Environment of Increasingly Scarce and Expensive Resources: A Fixed Cost Perspective, (2011), forthcoming in Journal of Economic Issues.
Chen, Jing and Galbraith, James K., A Biophysical Approach to Production Theory, Working paper, (2009).
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NOTE: Remarks above were transcribed from the audio file at UTIP. All errors are mine. — selise
x-posted from my blog — selise



68 Comments

i think this is an extremely important talk by galbraith. it gives global political, energy and environmental context to our current political “debates” and the false claims, political fear and deficit hysteria, that are being used in an attempt to justify attacks — by both parties — on social security, medicare and more generally on a balanced economic system designed to support the population as a whole.
Thanks, Selise. Very interesting stuff.
Thanks for this, addressing the most concerning feature of unrestricted and unregulated access to our means by the financial community. (When our currency is not backed by real worth, especially individuals’ input, it is hollow.)
thanks for reading!
hmmm… is the s&p rating — an obvious deficit terrorist ploy in support of austerity — something that can be understood in this framework? i think maybe so.
Very nice diary Selise. Well done.Recc’d.
So that’s what happened to me, I’ve been disappeared. I’ve been so busy attempting to consolidate while simultaneously putting out one fire after another in my little world, I failed to realize I was now invisible.
It is an interesting template from within which to analyse our present circumstances. While I believe our democracy to be dead; perhaps irrationally I have been clinging to the hope that a new one might yet be conceived that will transcend this dire situation.
This analyses makes the corporatocracy sound omnipotent, inexorably moving toward fulfilling its own needs. Sounds fatalistic, or solely mathamatical if you will. I’ll have to give it some more thought. They won’t be happy thoughts.
social movements can be and have been a powerful force also.
Thanks, very interesting read.
In the US, I would think that the resource end of the problem to be easily solvable from an engineering standpoint.
The politics is another matter.
politics and time.
i don’t see either one are working in our favor just now. :(
What was wrong with the model before the post-WWII automobile boom?
How much energy could be saved by giving up on suburbia?
Good thought, but the internet/remote officing has a great deal of promise as a counter to that.
Yeah, not with Mr Wall Street in the White House. :-/
As for time, fantastic things can be done in a rather limited time frame IF we set our minds to in and pursue with vigor.
Russia of the 1990′s certainly provides a glimps into what’ll happen if this is left untended. Their population started to take a very noticable nose dive.
only for commuting and only for certain kinds of jobs. there is still transportation for food, energy, manufactured goods, etc.
and transportation is only a small slice of the total national energy usage.
While concentration of population has a lot of savings as a recommendation, sociologically it has other problems. A renovated grid and wind/solar use increased, these appeal to my aethetic needs – but this is from a purely hypothetical level. When i hear former CEO of Shell, Hofmeister, praising nuclear and telling us the wind/solar is too expensive, that makes me even more of a fan (pun intended).
LOL!
i’m not convinced we actually know the solutions well enough to start redesigning all of society.
personally, what i’d like to see is design of institutions and policies that will help get us on a path to make the necessary transitions.
i’m a big fan of hansen’s proposed carbon tax and %100 per capita dividend to help individuals fund the transition, provide stable and long lasting incentive for investment and innovation, and hopefully tax the rent now going to producers/suppliers.
don’t think it’s anywhere near sufficient, but would love to see it as part of an overall institutional design to kick start things and build a base of public support (via all those nice annual checks from uncle same).
hmmmm….. i should ask galbraith if he has thought through any institutional & policy ideas we could use for discussion….
out here we have several communities using wind power to great advantage, but then we have much wind, of all sorts. I think looking at Europe’s growing use, and advantage from, alternate energy makes it seem much farther along than here where Big Oil has thrown so much obstruction on the path to our sustainable future.
Yes, to the extent that jobs can be performed in a remote fashion. I’d certainly be for promoting that solution. But I can’t imagine that such a solution would be sufficient on it’s own.
It seems to me that remote officing could reduce the physical overhead of admin jobs but that still leaves the vast majority of non-admin jobs to consider.
Maybe that just means that industrial towns would need to be urbanized. Dunno.
Actually, no solution could be complete, but I see all sorts of future in internet use rather than physically commuting. Cannot see why it would be necessary for clerical work to be done in an office. And cleaning/maintenance much reduced by lessened workforce. Just speculative.
Yeah, there’s both the what and how of it to consider.
Anyway, as a nation, we have had past experience with far more efficient models which were in many ways just as good in terms of quality of life. So it’s not like we are starting from scratch with absolutely no past history to use as a reference.
The single biggest problem with urbanization is probably racism. It’s a tough hurdle because so many people make careers out of drumming up the hate.
Yep.
I guess I’m more concerned about jobs which require physical work because of the vital nature of such jobs.
As for why clerical work cannot be done at home… security. Assuming that you trust your employees, online security is sorta crap and that could in some cases be a limiting factor. Also, I suspect that many businesses do not have sufficient trust in their employees.
In terms of energy availability and controlling its cost, I would like to see America nationalize its gas and oil and coal industries (if only to control pollution). In addition to creating a jobs program for the energy industry (through nationalization) it might guarantee consideration for the environment and reduction of the creation of greenhouse gases during extraction (through attention to ‘waste’). I would also like us to get into local creation of wind and solar electrical generation and storage of electrical power. Necessity is the mother of invention but public programs could give her an assist.
‘so many people make careers out of drumming up the hate’
tax subsidies for off shoring those jobs!
Thank you, selise. I’m a big fan of James Galbraith, and his presentation is important as a ‘step back and take a wider perspective’ on our economic problems. Now that we are entering another price play on oil, it serves us well to recall what was happening in 2008 when that prior manipulation occurred in terms of Prof. Galbraith’s framework.
I think that since he gave this talk, some movement has taken place with respect to the fourth option he wonders about. Events in Wisconsin have reached critical mass, and of course the movements in the Middle East as well. And I am wondering if we may see the next adjustment to economic reality actually in Japan, where extreme events may have precipitated a very new and different economic reality simply for the sake of survival.
The fourth option I would suggest is the one taken by citizens of Pennsylvania opposing a royal oligarchy in their ‘representative’ government before the American Revolution. They simply took to the streets and marched on city hall and said, ‘You do not represent us; you are not our government.’ We saw it in Tunisia and Egypt, and it is not finished there yet. We saw it in Pennsylvania.
The fourth option is permeable, malleable, indistinct but it does seem to be forming itself in reaction to the failing attempts of the first three options to right the economic ship. It simply requires a viable channel in which to run, and perhaps if wise folk read Prof. Galbraith’s article we can begin to build one.
Recommend. (I’m getting an ‘error’ notice when I try to do so above.)
my my pov, social movements aren’t a fourth option, but i so hope they can be the means to move us towards galbraith’s third option.
Being on site does not make it less likely that an employee sell out to competition, imho. In the case of oppressive conditions, perhaps more likely.
Edit; Incidentally, great things are happening in health care on the internet, supplying good care to remote communities.
thanks! i’m told that the recommend will still be there, and the error msg will be gone, when you refresh the page… (and that is what i also have seen happen)
i like that!
LOL,
we could replace Rush Limbaugh with someone from the India. Hmmm, it may be difficult to locate anyone quite so stupid over there.
TBH, if we need to ban right wing radio to save our nation, that’s a price I’m willing to pay.
Thanks – happy to be corrected. I never was good at subordinating topics in an outline. Incidentally, as well, there is an excellent reprise of recent events in Egypt written by Esam Al-Amin at counterpunch.org that supports your hope for social movements. It would be wonderful to hear Siun’s take on this.
What institutional and policy frameworks indeed! One wonders whether we are capable of making the sweeping changes we so desperately need.
We speak of resource conservation but seem unable to grasp its implications. For too long, we Americans have been indoctrinated with libertarian toxins. Conservation means no more, or at least very little, driving. Ready for that?
Conservation means local agriculture and the end of centralized agribusiness. Take land in your town by eminent domain and start farming. We can no longer afford the energy intensive, land-raping infrastructure of remotely grown, chemically-dependent food.
Mr. Galbraith acknowledged “the deferred cost of resources associated with climate change.” Denial of this “externality” badly corrupts the fossil fuel markets and leads to poor policy choices. What he failed to mention is the staggering cost of the US military that is used like a private security force to procure Middle Eastern oil for the multi-national oil companies. Factor in the cost of US militarism and the cost of oil is many times its current price. We have socialized many of oil’s procurement costs while the profits remain privatized. Again, this leads to very poor policy choices.
As global competition increases, we also seem to have no equitable mechanism, or philosophy, or system of governance to address the distribution of dwindling resources. Dare I utter the “r” word? It’s rationing. Do the elite 1% worry that gas prices have soared past the $4 a gallon mark? Will they worry at $8 or $18 or $28 a gallon?
Too many think rationing will restrict their freedom. “It’s un-American”, they cry. What they fail to see is that most of us are suffering under a system of “price rationing”. If you can’t afford it, you can’t have it. In a society designed around suburbs and the absence of reliable mass transit, gas, until we rebuild our infrastructure, is a necessity.
There is nothing more democratic than rationing. It’s time to overthrow the system that allows the wealthy to live like there’s no tomorrow while the rest of us are worried about just getting through today. These changes are not possible through our existing political institutions.
When Mr. Galbraith asks “what institutional and policy frameworks can conceivably get us from here to there”, the answer I see is the three “r’s”: revolution, rationing and rebuilding. As to whether such change is possible, we’ll see. There is no alternative.
thanks for the Esam Al-Amin recommend.
i keep threatening to write a diary series on social movements and nonviolence, maybe one day i actually will do it!
imo there are ways to do progressive (as opposed to your current regressive) price rationing. what do you think, for example, of hansen’s carbon tax and 100% per capita dividend?
http://www.columbia.edu/~jeh1/2009/WaysAndMeans_20090225.pdf
i’m no fan of our current agribusiness. but is there really no choice other than the low fixed cost systems that galbraith describes?
While I’ve long admired Hansen’s advocacy, I’m not fond, not as a first choice anyway, of his market-based approach. His “tax and dividend” program may be a good first step to address CO2 pollution but it doesn’t seem to adequately address the issue of equitable distribution of limited resources nor other risks posed by our misguided energy policies.
For example, under Hansen’s plan, what incentive do the super-wealthy have to reduce their energy footprint? If they can afford the very high prices Hansen envisions, they can still build enormous homes, multiple homes, and drive around in stretch limos. Is that OK? Is the goal only to solve the CO2 problem or must there be a recognition, in any program we design, that critical, limited resources must be shared and conserved?
In essence, Hansen’s plan, i.e. the idea of taxing polluters and returning that tax (a dividend) to the public, rightly recognizes the “commons” as a constituency in our energy policies. But it does not do enough, in my view, to recognize other environmental harms (and risks) beyond climate change. For example, it does nothing to address the water contamination caused by fracking nor the dead-zones off our coasts including the BP Gulf catastrophe nor the cost of pollution-caused cancers. In fact, ignoring other risks to the commons invites pro-nuclear power arguments. There’s more to the energy problem than CO2 as Japan has taught us all too well. And, finally, it fails to affix the massive military costs we incur, especially including multiple wars, to the price of foreign-procured oil. The tax Hansen proposes should include all of these other factors.
Burdened with these additional externalities, fossil fuels would be seen for the insanities they really are.
Hi there! I had a second thought about the analysis of the deficit hawks, where Galbraith suggests that cutting the deficits maintains the predators’ wealth. My thought was from Martin Luther King Jr.’s speech in Memphis. He said that Pharoah always keeps the people fighting amongst themselves whenever He senses that they are about to rebel: e.g. making them produce more bricks as punishment for thinking about leaving and bricks without straw. Withdrawing funds from LIHEAP for heating oil assistance, or playing tricks with the Federal Medicaid reimbursement formula for states; or scaring the living daylights out of the 2/3s of seniors for whom Social Security is 90% of their income……these are all punitive measures to get us all fighting with each other. Or, to get GOP ideologues to war with Dem politicos while a clean third of the electorate gives up in despair. This is just punishment for even thinking about junking both parties or even questioning their stupid deficit stories. Never mind about corruption at the very highest levels of banking and government; just keep fighting over crumbs. Never mind TomThumb’s romantic visions of alternative energy; just keep telling him there’s no money and ‘they won’t let me’. Rubbish.
Let’s poke around a bit at the phrase “much lower standard of living.” Please keep in mind that any arguments I make here are as much for my own reflection as they are for anyone reading this. The point is I’m exploring these ideas myself.
It is not clear to me at the outset that lower investment in fixed costs leads to a lower standard of living. What standard of living is achieved when the masses lose their jobs due to automation? What standard of living is achieved when our workers become too expensive relative to foreign workers? What standard of living do many of us experience when higher fixed costs translate to centralized employment centers? We end up commuting. We end up in high-rise buildings that dehumanize us. We end up in clerical “knowledge worker” jobs. We end up far, far away from the natural world.
One could, I suppose, make good arguments that I’ve linked two ideas that should not be connected. Perhaps high fixed cost investment need not translate to the ill effects we see throughout our society. Somehow, however, in keeping with the Woodstock spirit of “we’ve got to get ourselves back to the garden”, it seems to me we’ve lost our connection to the world around us and to each other. Our food has lost its taste and its nutritional value. We’ve grown fat and suffer the diseases of sedentary lifestyles. We’ve become estranged from one another and raised generation after generation of latchkey children.
It’s not just farming being addressed here. It’s the madness of our high-fixed-cost dehumanizing lifestyles. The high standard of living Mr. Galbraith describes may not be quite so high and mighty after all. What some view as a life of relative ease and great luxury may be, in truth, a debt yet to be repaid to the environment that sustains us.
Perhaps smaller is better. Perhaps more local is better. Perhaps more natural is better. Perhaps human-intensive production is better. Perhaps the wealth Mr. Galbraith envisions is something of an illusion.
Before any of these choices can be made, of course, power must be restored to its rightful owners. Still, it will serve us well to layout our vision before that time comes.
separate issue.
i’m not disagreeing that it’s an issue, but it’s a different issue of the one of how to provide the stable economic environment to make it worth the risk for individuals, small business, and others to invest in tech for conservation and alternative (low carbon) energy sources without penalizing (or causing more hardship to) the already strapped unemployed or low wage earners and dwindling middle class.
hansen’s approach is progressive in that the costs would be born by the wealthy.
i certainly don’t think it stands alone or is anywhere close to a sufficient policy. my argument is only that it is a very good first step (in conjunction with doing something drastic about energy speculation) could be implemented quickly and would be a way to make every adult acutely aware of the issue (not just via costs, but also via that quarterly check).
it also fits well with many other policies we, imo, need to be talking about.
i’d like to see a property tax based on square foot of house (per person). but that’s another policy that complements hansen’s proposal.
hansen’s proposal, if workable (i think it should be — politicly feasible is another issue), could provide an example / template for how other important externalities (in addition to the climate and need for getting off our fossil fuel dependancy) are handled.
…..
basically, i’m of the opinion that just because hansen’s proposal doesn’t do everything, that is no reason to ditch it (different story if the cons outweigh the pros).
jmo, but i think including additional issues like arguing over what is a fair resource allocation makes the political hurdles (and opportunity for wide public support) just that much harder. let’s take them all on… but not at the price of moving ahead. (and i do think this is real movement in the right direction, unlike that nonsense hcr policy called “the public option” in combination with mandates and a fundamentally flawed reform agenda meant to benefit the insurance industry and big pharma ahead of the needs of ordinary people).
“One has to understand, perhaps, that this is one approach which would preserve, at least, the predatory profitability of certain parts of the private system. Although the cost is forcing everybody to live at a much lower standard and the system effectively being able to support far fewer people.”; great description of what is going on.
Appreciate your efforts to educate others and shout “the emperor has no clothes” Selise.
As towards the China way, have you seen what all their dam building -for water and energy-is doing to the Asian sub-continent? Certainly setting the conditions up for ‘war over resources’(which is what wars usually are,not ideology or religion.)
This was already rec’d when I got to it but I’ll rec it all the same; would love to see it on the front page of FDL.
same here.
depends on how the benefit in increased in productivity is shared (obviously it has not been shared with workers).
imo the issue is unemployment, not that foreign workers are acting, in effect, as slave labor for usa consumption (i don’t think it’s fair, but the problem of unemployment seems to me to be our stupid low wage / high unemployment policies).
amen.
i hope so because i agree with most of your critique.
here again is a key graf (imo at least) from galbraith’s talk:
“thinking ahead for a long duration” includes, imo, just the kind of questions you are asking….
ubetcha, agree completely re wars over resources. also really like the graf you cited, and for the same reason you state.
thanks for your rec. it will help keep the diary on the recommended list and so give more people the opportunity to read galbraith’s talk (i don’t know of anywhere else it’s available, i had to do the transcription myself). …but only if you think that would be a good thing.
amen. great comment. thanks!
“no more, or at least very little, driving. Ready for that?”
We’re absolutely 100% not ready! Almost every US city is missing 90% or more of the rail/lightrail infrastructure required.
It seems like a chicken&egg problem. We need the federal government to step in and break the deadlock.
yes. and, imo, to create a transition path to both 1) get us from here to where we need to go and 2) make the transition as bearable non-disruptive as possible (not saying it won’t be hugely disruptive, but there’s no reason to make it worse than it needs to be).
Whether smaller is better is relative; it’s impacted by the size and power of firms with which the smaller units have to compete or buy resources. You and I might be happy when I sell you seed or buy your milk at a relatively low, but sustainable margin. ADM, backed by Wall Street, might not be happy unless it makes several times that margin.
I read Prof. Galbraith’s comments as accurately describing the massive cutbacks aggressively being promoted across the board in the US and UK.
Such policies dramatically cut back the resources allocated to small and average players, small businesses, those of median income, those further at the margin permanently (the poor) or temporarily (the short-term unemployed). What’s being stripped are the resources for long-term growth: education, retraining, transport and safety infrastructure, libraries and community services.
The unspoken but obvious result, officially denied, is to preserve the role and profits of only the large players. That result remains unspoken because it makes a cruel mockery of the “shared sacrifice” rhetoric used to stem rising popular anger. The cuts affect 95%; the savings accrue to the top o.1%, the top 1%, the top 5%.
It is no accident that those advocating such policies are investment bankers and high rent seekers. (Kasich in Ohio is a former Lehman partner; the White House’s top economic advisers are all “ex” Goldman Sachs players.)
Investment banking, after all, is the pre-eminent example of high rent seeking. Their deals strip value for themselves, while burdening both buyer and seller with lower values: a lower sales price, a “going concern” deprived of much of its cash flow and the personnel that made it a success.
Often, only the investment banker, the high rent seeker wins. That’s the American model, the second option articulated by Prof. Galbraith. That model assumes Prof. Galbraith is right; its advocates intend to be the only men standing after the fight.
excellent comment. can’t think of anything to add, except to say “thanks.”
Well, if there’s one thing the ptb fear and loathe above all else as they have demonstrated through their policies it’s wage inflation. They haven’t really needed the excuse of real resource constraints to do everything in their power to hold down wages while at the same time inducing us in multifarious ways to in-debt ourselves to them.
The thing is, none of this is really new. The wealthy classes have for some time operated out of implicit or explicit Malthusianism. Since Malthus produced his work in the early 19th century on populations (based on not very convincing science) conservatives have always had a handy excuse to oppose any significant plans for social betterment. The argument runs like this: “There’s no point in doing anything for the poor because if we let them have better food or medical care they’ll just go on breeding like rabbits and all the little urchins will live to grow up and eat us all out of house and home.”
Never mind that the evidence is that when standards of living rise people tend to have fewer children. Never mind that humans have clever brains and are good at devising ways to increase the food supply. Even now we are hardly at some kind of upper limit in the amount of food we can produce even though an absurd amount of what we do produce goes through the bodies of cows. Never mind that every mouth to feed also comes with two hands that can be engaged in useful work.
We do have to be mindful of limitations to real resources. Particularly those that can’t be replaced. We’ve known for a long time that cheap oil wasn’t going to last forever. But how does that justify our being rack-rented by privateers who use massive public resources to guarantee their markets? I don’t see any significant effort by our “leaders” to try to divert those resources toward developing alternatives. We most assuredly aren’t running out of energy, probably not even oil, for a while yet.
Just as we need to push back against the vapid deficit terrorists and their fallacious claim “that we’re out of money,” we need to be careful of buying into the Malthusian argument that “we’re running out of stuff.” Such arguments have a long history of being used dishonestly, viciously and inappropriately just to serve the bigotry and prejudices of the “master class.”
great comment. lots of food for thought….
it doesn’t, of course…. but i think you knew my opinion on that already :)
excellent point and maybe one of the reasons this talk appealed to me so much… because it doesn’t talk about “running out of stuff.” rather it’s about changes in the real costs “of stuff.” but if my comments have fed into the malthusian arguments you describe, i apologize and will try to be more mindful of that issue in the future (and hope you will call me out specifically when i fail).
thanks.
It wasn’t aimed at you as supporting Malthusian arguments, Selise. It’s just something I’ve observed over the years and many smart people are susceptible to those arguments especially if they come from people the left tends to be sympathetic with. Paul Erlich is an obvious example.
My using the phrase “running out of stuff” was a rhetorical simpification of the idea that costs are rising due to real and unalterable shortages.
I guess it comes down to distinguishing between real costs rising due to actual supply/demand factors and the manufactured perception of scarcity that seems to be social reality we are being conditioned to accept. I feel we need to have a reality based philosophy of abundance, which I think is quite possible, even if it means re-defining what a “high standard of living” really is, as one commenter discussed.
ok, thanks. still, it’s not something i’ve been very aware of (my bad) and i’d like to attempt to correct that, at least a little bit.
i confess i didn’t know who paul erlich was, but reading his wikipedia entry gave me a serious case of the creeps. scary guy.
amen.
it seems to me that rather than looking for a single approach to any specific rising resource cost issue, we’d do better to encourage something of a diverse ecosystem of approaches: some with very high fixed costs all the way down to the very low fixed cost approaches.
if done wisely our society might then benefit from the efficiency of high fixed cost systems with some of the resiliency of low fixed cost systems. if we take a lesson from the natural world, monocultures are not a model i’d want to follow.
Terrific diary and discussion. Lots of food for thought. Recc’d and tweeted.
thanks lets!
scarecrow made a great comment on dday’s post, Process Reforms the Likely Throw-in to Debt Limit about the possibility of congress and the president “compromising” to legislatate “a trigger, which would force mandatory cuts in spending or increases in taxes if the deficit rose above a certain target.”
fits right in with this thread and galbraith, when he says, “The first way to approach it is to break the system, to try to move from a high to a low fixed cost environment. The way you do that, of course, is by destroying the institutions that support the system: government, the social welfare system, the infrastructure. The way you do that is by cutting its budget.”
imo we are watching both political parties pursue the “break the system” approach.
Thanks selise.
My problem with this analysis is that we’ve had these situations before and something about Galbraith’s description doesn’t resonate with me.
Soviet Union fell apart bc everything was out of date and decrepit and the system was rigid, not bc it was capital intensive per se.
Japan fell apart not bc it was capital intensive nor bc of the rising cost of resources (which are profits somewhere else in the system) but bc the BoJ pursued a bubblicious monetary policy. So rising resource costs on top of that made them run out of monetary tools to fight the downturn, and Japan’s large deficit made it difficult for them to do as much fiscal stim as they needed.
U.S. monetary policy has been bubblelicious since Greenspan days, largely bc monetary stim doesn’t result in higher purchasing power, like rising real wages/worker, but in asset price inflation.
U.S. coulda done a lot more fiscal stim, but didn’t bc of ideology.
Then there was the U.S. Gilded Age which was also capital intensive (RRs for example), ended in depression bc of bubblicious monetary policy coupled with fiscal austerity. New Deal was only time in U.S. when Keynes was tried & it worked pretty well.
The Galbraith work reminds me of the joke about the physicist’s proof that 12 is evenly divisible by all integers less than 12: 1 goes into 12 evenly, 2…, 3…, 4 goes into 12 evenly. Let’s not get ridiculous. Only Galbriath stops at 3.
OT — Did you get email?
ecahn, thanks for reading and your reply! can you explain more about what exactly doesn’t resonate with you? …i’m interested in knowing more, especially if you’ve read the two short papers i’ve listed under further reading.
anyway, i’ll just add a few quick responses now, in separate comments, because i don’t know when the thread will close to further comments. if there’s time later today, i’ll add more….
standard disclaimer: these are my opinions and, of course i may have it totally wrong — not just in your opinion, but in galbraith’s too :)
first, the story here is most definitely NOT about capital intensive vs labor intensive. it’s about systems of high fixed costs vs high variable costs — and then the effect of rising resource costs on those systems.
this, i think, may be the source (or at least a primary source) of my fundamental disagreement with your comment. in any event, the analysis certainly resonates with me, especially the physical and biological foundations and the resulting analogies between biological and economic systems.
but why was everything out of date and decrepit? in what ways was the system rigid and what was it about that rigidity that contributed to the collapse?
this, i think, is one aspect of the power of their analytical theory (and i love that it is based only physical and evolutionary principles — and not any imaginary concept of markets, etc): it provides additional insights with detailed (and, for me, intuitive) explanations for these phenomena and it has predictive power that can be tested… post-hoc assertions i don’t know how to test or use to understand other, related phenomena leave me with no more understanding than i started with.
i don’t mean to imply that i think this work provides some kind of comprehensive explanation — no answer to “the ultimate question of life, the universe, and everything,” which we all know is 42 anyway :). the only claim they make on that score is:
to use one of your examples:
here is the kind of additional insight their work suggests (and how it relates to our current situation):
and wrt your comments on monetary stim (i assume you mean interest rates?), there is also an interesting discussion of discounts rates and high vs low fixed costs societies that is not about purchasing power or asset price inflation, but rather investment in fixed costs systems. here is a bit:
there is more, but i’ll stop for now….
thanks yes!
Capital intensive is high fixed cost intensive. And it’s what locks in certain other variable costs, that then become fixed, like energy. Though even that is not so true.
I remember having a conversation sometime in the 80s when ethylene prices were rocketing. So stock prices of ethylene producers were going thru the roof. BC ethy plants are capital intensive, dirty, etc, investors were arguing no more could evah be built & ethy prices would stay high forevah. I know nothing about ethy, but quickly learned to ask: Supposing that every valve in an ethy plant were replaced with a state of the art valve. Would you get more thruput from existing plants? At which point the client would shake his head in pity at poor ignorant me. Sure enough, about a year later, ethy prices were plummeting even though no new green field plants had been built.
You surely do not need to be told why Soviet Union was rigid & everything in its economy was out of date & decrepit at the end.
Hint: Hubris of empire, small elite, no market mechanism, need I go on?
I don’t know much about econ history in that period, but I thought oil was discovered in late 19thC and was well on its way to replacing coal long before the 30s. Like WWI airplanes were a big boon to it. And iirc, carving up of ME by western powers after WWI had a lot to do with oil.
So it strikes me that G is rewriting history to say that that the transition from coal to oil had to wait for mass production of cars and that contributed to depression.
RRs and ships both switched away from coal to oil.
And if there were deficient demand owing to tech change, why wasn’t a Keynesian fix used to bridge the gap?
post hoc assertions (not that i disagree), but what do they tell me about the mechanisms? not much.
none of that (hubris of empire, small elite, no market mechanism) was untrue of the soviet union 25 years prior to the collapse, was everything out of date and decrepit in the soviet union then? if not why not? what happened to the cost of energy in the 60s and 70s? (real costs).
rhetorical questions.
an analytical theory, derived from only 2 basic biophysical properties, that provides one mechanism (not trying to oversell by claiming it provides THE mechanism) with both predictive and explanatory power.
i think that’s pretty cool.
but opposite doesn’t hold: high fixed cost systems are not necessarily capital (vs labor) intensive.
agree capital cost does not determine variable costs.
but, your etoh example is one of rising product values, not rising resource costs. apples and oranges
don’t think that’s what was said. the transition in question was not about transition of use, it was the transition from a “coal-based economy, centered on railways, to an oil-based economy, centered on cars.” not transition of use, transition of economy (and the fixed cost infrastructure on which each economy depended).