The following two-part series is x-posted from New Economic Perspectives, with the kind permission of the author. — selise
UPDATE: At the Peterson Foundation Fiscal Summit, no one challenged the underlying premise: that to be Fiscally Responsible, we have to be concerned about balancing the Federal Government Budget. But that premise is both false and incompatible with progressive policy! I hope these posts will help show why that is so. — selise
What Happens When the Government Tightens its Belt? (Part I)
by Stephanie Kelton
Imagine two people sitting on opposite ends of a 15-foot teeter-totter. The laws of physics dictate that the seesaw will balance if the product of the first mass (w1) and its distance (d1) from the fulcrum (i.e. the balancing point) is equal to the product of the other mass (w2) and its distance (d2) from the fulcrum. Thus, the physicist can show that the teeter-totter will be in balance when the fulcrum is placed 6 feet from the end holding a 150lb person and 9 feet from the end holding a 100lb person. Moreover, the laws of physics ensure that an imbalance will arise if the mass or the relative position of one of the people is changed.
The laws of accounting allow us to demonstrate that similarly powerful concepts apply to the science of economics. Beginning with the simple identity for GDP in a closed economy, we have:
[1] Y = C + I + G, where:
C = Aggregate Consumption Expenditure
I = Aggregate Investment Expenditure
G = Aggregate Government Expenditure
For economists, this is as obvious as stating that a linear foot is the sum of 12 sequential inches. It simply recognizes that the total amount of money spent buying newly produced goods and services will yield an equivalent income to the sellers of these products. Thus, it demonstrates that expenditures are a source of income.
Once earned, income can be allocated in one of three ways. At the end of the day, all income (Y) will be spent (C), saved (S) or used in payment of taxes (T):
[2] Y = C + S + T
Since they are equivalent expressions for Y, we can set equation [1] equal to equation [2], giving us:
C + I + G = C + S + T
Or, after canceling (C) from both sides and moving terms around:
[3] (S – I) = (G – T)
Equation [3] shows that there is a direct relationship between what’s happening in the private sector (S – I) and what’s happening in the public sector (G – T). But it is not the one that Pete Peterson, Erskin Bowles, or President Obama would have you believe. And I want you to understand why they are wrong.
To understand the argument, imagine that you and Uncle Sam are sitting on opposite ends of a teeter-totter. You represent the private sector, and your financial status is given by (S – I). Your budget can be in balance (S = I), in deficit (S < I) or in surplus (S > I). When your financial status is positive (S > I), you are net saving. When your financial status is negative (S < I), you are net borrowing. Uncle Sam’s financial status is equal to (G – T), and, like yours, his budget may be balanced (G = T), in deficit (G > T) or in surplus (G < T). When you interact, only three outcomes are possible.
First, it is conceivable that (S = I) and (G = T) so that (S – I) = 0 and (G – T) = 0. When this condition holds, the teeter-totter will level off with each of you experiencing a balanced budget.
In the above scenario, the government is balancing its receipts (T) and expenditures (G), and you are balancing your savings and investment spending. There is no net gain/loss.
But suppose the government begins to spend more than it collects in taxes (i.e. G > T). How will Uncle Sam’s deficit affect your position on the teeter-totter? The answer is as straightforward as increasing the mass of the person on the right-hand side of the seesaw. As Uncle Sam’s financial position turns negative, your financial position turns positive.
This should make intuitive as well as mathematical sense, because when Uncle Sam runs a deficit, you receive more financial assets than you lose through taxation. Put simply, Uncle Sam’s deficit lifts you into a surplus position. Moreover, bigger deficits mean bigger surpluses for you.
Finally, let’s see what happens when Uncle Sam tightens his belt. Suppose, for example, that we were able to duplicate the much-coveted surpluses of 1999-2001. What would (and did!) happen to the private sector’s financial position?
Because the economy’s financial flows are a closed system – every payment must come from somewhere and end up somewhere – one sector’s surplus is always the other sector’s deficit. As the government “tightens” its belt, it “lightens” its load on the teeter-totter, shifting the relative burden onto you.
This is not rocket science, but it appears to befuddle scores of educated people, including President Obama, who said, “small businesses and families are tightening their belts. Their government should, too.” This kind of rhetoric may temporarily boost his approval ratings, but the policy itself will undermine the efforts of the very families and small businesses that are trying to improve their financial positions.
* I’ll be back with a second installment that shows what happens when we ‘open’ the economy to take into account the foreign sector (and the relevant financial flows). Many of us have been working with financial balance equations for years (see here for references), so the current effort is nothing new. I am merely trying to make the arguments more accessible by changing the way they are presented.
What Happens When the Government Tightens its Belt? (Part II)
by Stephanie Kelton
In a recent post, I used a simple teeter-totter diagram to show how the government’s financial balance is related to the private sector’s financial balance in a closed economy. With only two sectors – government and non-government – I showed that a government deficit necessarily implies a surplus in the private sector.
As expected, this accounting truism ruffled the feathers of a flock of readers who have been programmed to launch into an anti-government tirade at the mere mention of the public sector and to regard the dangers of deficit spending as an unimpeachable fact. And while you’re certainly entitled to your own political views, you are not, as Senator Moynihan famously said, entitled to your own facts.
Other, less impenetrable minds, agreed that the private sector’s financial position must improve as the government’s deficit increases in a closed economy, but they argued that I had not demonstrated anything meaningful because I ignored the financial flows that occur in an open economy.
I still hope to convince both groups that they are acting against their own economic interests when they support policies to balance the budget or reduce the deficit, either by raising taxes or cutting government expenditures. So let’s continue the exercise and, as promised, extend the argument to the more realistic open-economy in which we actually live.
In an open economy, income flows into and out of the domestic economy as residents and foreigners buy goods and services (exports minus imports), make and receive payments such as interest and dividends (factor income) and make net transfer payments (such as foreign aid). Each country keeps track of these payments using a balance of payments (BOP) account, which summarizes the international monetary transactions that take place between the home country and the rest of the world. The BOP has two primary components – the current account and the capital account – and we can use either one to show whether, on balance, money is flowing into or out of a country.
When we incorporate these international flows, we transform the closed-economy accounting identity I used in my previous post:
[1] Domestic Private Surplus = Government Deficit
into the open-economy accounting identity shown below:
[2] Domestic Private = Government + Current Account
Surplus Deficit Balance
or, equivalently,
[3] Domestic Private = Government + Capital Account
Surplus Surplus Balance
When the current account balance is positive, it means that we in the private sector (households and domestic firms) are accumulating net financial claims on foreigners. When it is negative, they are accumulating net financial claims on us. Thus, a positive current account implies a negative capital account and vice versa.
To see this in the context of the teeter-totter model, let’s initially hold the public sector’s balance constant at zero (i.e. let’s assume the government is balancing its budget so that G = T). With the government budget in balance, Uncle Sam is a “weightless” entity on the teeter-totter, so that the private sector’s financial position will simply reflect the “weight” of the capital account. Suppose, first, that the current account is in surplus (i.e. the capital account shows an equivalent deficit):
The image above depicts the benefit (to the private sector) of a current account surplus (a.k.a a capital account deficit), and it is the outcome that many of you accused me of sidestepping in my previous post. Of course, the U.S. does not have a current account surplus, so let’s address that point before moving on. (And lest anyone begin to hyperventilate, I’ll also address the fact that G ≠ T). First, the current account.
Sticking with (G = T) for the moment, we can show how a current account deficit impacts the private sector’s financial position. As the capital account moves from deficit (diagram above) into surplus (diagram below), we see that the private sector’s financial position moves from surplus into deficit.
But does this all of this hold true in the real world, or is it some kind of economic chicanery? Let’s check the facts.
Equations [2] and [3] above are not based on economic theory. They are accounting identities that always “add up” in the real world. So let’s firm up the discussion about the implications of government “belt tightening” by running through some examples using the real world data found in the table below (Hat tip to Scott Fullwilir for sharing the file. All of the data comes from the National Income and Product Accounts (NIPA) and the Flow of Funds.)
[ Click here for Sectoral Balances Data (.xlsx format) ]
Let’s begin with the data from 1998 (Q3), when the public sector deficit was just 0.01% of GDP and the current account deficit was 2.56% of GDP. Plugging these numbers into equation [2] above, the identity tells us (and the data in the table confirm) that the private sector’s balance must have been:
[2] Domestic Private Sector’s Balance = 0.01% + (-2.56% )= -2.55%
Here, we can see that the private sector’s financial position was deteriorating because it was making large (net) payments to foreigners. Because this loss of financial resources was not offset by the public sector, the private sector’s financial position deteriorated.
To see how a bigger government deficit would have improved the private sector’s financial position, let’s look at the data from 1988 (Q1). As a percent of GDP, the current account balance was 2.59%, nearly the same as before, while the government’s deficit came in at a much higher 4.2% of GDP. We can use Equation [2] to see effect of the larger budget deficit:
[2] Domestic Private Sector’s Balance = 4.2% + (-2.59%) = 1.61%
In this period, the private sector ends up with a surplus because the government’s deficit was large enough to more than offset the negative effect of the current account deficit.
Again, this is simply a property of the sectoral balance sheet identities. Whenever the government’s deficit is too small to offset a deficit in the current account, the private sector will experience a net loss. The result my ruffle your feathers, but it is an unimpeachable fact.
So let’s go back to President Obama’s comment and the reason I wrote this blog in the first place. The President said:
“[S]mall businesses and families are tightening their belts. Their government should, too.”
Wrong! When we tighten our belts, it means that we are trying to build up our savings. We do this by spending less. But spending drives our economy. Sales create jobs. So unless Obama has a secret plan to reverse three decades of current account deficits, the Government needs to loosen its belt when we tighten ours. If it doesn’t, then millions of us will lose our shirts.
** An aside: I am aware that I have said nothing about the usefulness of the spending projects, the waste and inefficiency that exists with many government programs, cronyism, inequality, etc., etc. These are legitimate and important questions, but they are not the focus of this analysis. I wrote this series of blogs to try to get people to understand the interplay between the private, public and foreign sectors’ balance sheets. Criticizing me for not addressing a myriad of other issues is like reading Old Yeller and complaining, “What about the cat? You’ve completely ignored the genus Felis!”
************ ************ ************
Note: also x-posted at my blog – selise












138 Comments

Thx Selise,
I’ll read it a second and even a third time if I have to, the math is simple, just thinking using economic terminology is elusive.
I took the quiz at Billy Blog Saturday, and when I only got two correct out of five it told me that I was possessed of dangerous neo-liberal tendencies and should be quarantined or some such.
robert, two is a very good start!
we all have decades of neo-liberal misinformation and myths to challenge.
argh! i have no idea why my diary started in the middle of the list of the “recent diary” list. based on when i posted it, i think it should be between the diaries written by Thomas Philip Davis and RogerShuler. :(
either i’m doing something wrong or the myfdl system is still buggy. if anyone knows better than me how to correctly post diaries, i’d be grateful for some tips. thanks!
I’m NOT in the know here (at all) but I recall the same issue with another diarist and seem to recall Bill Egnor (I think) saying that it is a known bug that they are working on.
Hopefully someone who IS in the know will confirm/deny that for you though.
thanks OFG! i’m pulling my hair out (the tweet button didn’t work for me either, tried safari and firefox, clear cache, etc).
OFG, will you bring your question to this thread? or with your permission, would you like me to bring it over? (i can grab the html from the other thread if you like)
This is a reply to OFG’s comment here: http://firedoglake.com/2011/06/05/on-fauxgressive-rationalizations-of-selling-out-to-powerful-moneyed-backers/#comment-2376255
OFG, I agree with selise’s reply to you, whether tax cuts produce jobs depends on the specific context of the economic situation. Here’s an article by Jamie Galbraith on the relationships between stimulus, recovery, and jobs: http://motherjones.com/politics/2008/12/stimulus-suckers As well as doing a good job laying out some of the issues, it also has a graphic providing Mark Zandi’s estimates from Moody’s of the fiscal multipliers associated with different fiscal initiatives. While GDP multiplier estimates don’t have a one-one correlation with increasing jobs, higher multipliers generally are associated with job gains.
You can see from the graphic that the highest multiplier policies involve Government spending. The stimulative effects of tax cuts are widely variant. The Bush tax cuts most of the tax cut measures have a multiplier effect of only 30 or 40 cents on the dollar. But a payroll tax holiday yields $1.30 of GDP for every dollar deficit spent by the Government. I suppose it’s worth adding that Mark Zandi is a Republican economist who was one of John McCain’s economic advisers and Galbraith, of course, is an unambiguously progressive economist who uses the MMT approach.
i just added an update:
in response to jon walker’s post “Peterson Foundation Proposals From the Roosevelt Institute, CAP and EPI Abandon Progressive Policy,” which included this line:
and my comment:
Thanks lgid.
I have seen multipliers before. But they’re also “theory” in that even economists disagree on what the multipliers are.
It may surprise you to hear that in a vague and general way I agree with them. I do believe cutting taxes may be stimulative; I believe cutting payroll taxes would likely be more stimulative than cutting income taxes because they’re regressive; and I believe increasing the amount of money in the private sector may be stimulative whether it’s from increasing deficits or just adding “printing” money.
All of those positions make some sort of intuitive sense. But they are all THEORY.
Because economics and economies are so complex, there is no way possible that we can (yet) control for all of the variables in a way that would prove (or disprove) such theories. Even linking to GDP growth and unemployment decline in every year of the New Deal save 1938 is only an educated guess. We just don’t yet know with certainty the exact effect of stimulative/depressive policies.
Because of that uncertainty, it is, IMO, WRONG to just flat out claim “tax cuts creates jobs” or “a payroll tax holiday will create jobs.” Which is what EPI flat out claimed. I agree there are economists with more letters after their name than appear in mine that support that theory, but at the end of the day it is still only theory.
And because we are in a class war, and the other class’ central rallying theme is LOWER TAXES IS GOOD FOR THE ECONOMY; AND because we have decades of real life data that does NOT confirm that (it may not deny it either, but it doesn’t confirm it), that it is not in any way a good idea for a progressive to repeat that claim.
It, IMO, waves a flag of surrender to our enemies. It is not backed up by real life data (taxes are at their lowest point in at least 50 years, job creation is not at it’s highest point). And it causes us to lose the debate for a real stimulus because it is easy for our enemies response to be “see, tax cuts create jobs. If we need more stimulus then we just need more tax cuts.”
Because at the end of the day, if stimulus is needed, all of those theories also agree that direct government spending is the best stimulus. We can point to real data (recovery from the Great Depression) that supports is, and it is therefore easy for the public to comprehend and ultimately support it.
I guess I’m suggesting that IMO it is a HUGE political mistake for any progressive to agree with the meme that “tax cuts creates jobs” even if in theory it’s true. From a progressive results standpoint, we’d be better to say “No, that’s bullshit, there’s no data to support it, but we have data to support what WILL create jobs, so let’s do that instead.”
Not sure if I’m making sense but trying to explain where I’m coming from when I say that IMO no progressive should ever utter the words “tax cuts create jobs.”
Obviously YMMV. And sorry for taking so long to respond. I’ve been jumping around reading several different things (including the post above) and wasn’t aware that you were looking for a reply. Sorry.
You put your finger on one of the most pernicious neo-liberal fallacies. As we’ve seen over and over, neo-liberal “reforms” always include reducing public commitments to public goods and putting more of the burden on the private individual. The “deficit” may be reduced but are you paying less or getting more for your money? No, of course not. Selling single payer for its virtue as a “long term deficit reducer” is almost as bad because it extols the virtue of deficit reduction as the holy grail of all public policy, and those who do it can’t even seem to articulate the real reasons for its superiority.
Well, I just finished it all. Read it in several steps.
I’m gonna have to read it again though to make sure I’m understanding it properly before commenting in detail (although to be fair I still might not understand it properly *g*), but in general there’s not really a whole lot controversial here IMO. I’ve heard a lot of it before although not quite in these explicit terms and narratives.
Thanks for posting this. I can see there’s a lot more diversity out there on macro economic theory than what you’d think (from our media at least. Yeah, big shocker there, right?).
exactly!
i don’t blame anyone for doing it though, i’m sure i’ve done it myself… before i started to figure out that what i thought i knew was in fact all wrong.
the important thing now is to get the word out to as many people as we can:
we don’t have to suffer or watch others suffer under an austerity we’ve been told is necessary. even now we have the capability to turn this around. the limits on what we are told is possible are not real limits at all!
thank you so much for reading OFG!
shocking! /s
:)
I’m sorry OFG, I do believe that a Payroll tax holiday will create millions of jobs. Not directly, of course. But such tax holiday will add hundreds of dollars per month per employed person to aggregate demand and to sales. When sales rise, businesses will hire because they respond to actual increases in demand.
Payroll tax cuts don’t carry as high a multiplier as revenue sharing grants to States or directly supplying jobs carrying a decent wage and fringe benefits in a Federal Job Guarantee program, but they have the advantage that they can be immediately implemented within weeks to add much needed demand to the economy.
On multipliers and theory. Yes, there is theory behind fiscal multipliers; but Zandi’s estimates of differential multipliers are based on analysis of much data over time. They’re probably a pretty good estimate. In fact, I recommended them to you because they are data-based.
Selise, this is great! I was beginning the task of writing this stuff up, and now I won’t bother. I should take writing lessons from Kelton; her explanations are so clear.
she teaches this stuff… and it shows :)
btw, i think you would enjoy, if you haven’t already watched/listened or read — the archive of last year’s fiscal sustainability teach-in (held on the same day as the peterson fiscal summit) and hosted by yours truly (kelton was one of the presenters).
also, something a small group of us just started working on (at the instigation of one of the economists, and the assistance of a couple of others) is at mmtwiki.org
……
p.s. thanks masaccio! seriously! i’m no writer or economist…. just a geeky person who likes to read and to think. i’m so glad to know that you think this is important enough to spend time explaining to fdl readers. don’t know if you saw it, but one of the diaries i wrote on this stuff began with a quote from you!
Why Paul Krugman, and we, need to take MMT economists seriously
Joe, the theory is right but the reality contradicts the theory. Velocity keeps going down.
Glad to see you posting here again Selise; did you catch Greenspan’s statement about the ‘debt limit’ ?
“Still, Greenspan says, that the U.S. has a debt ceiling at all need not be necessary. In fact, the current economic panic could be avoided if the U.S. had no maximum level of borrowing power.”
Don’t know if he was just trying to keep attention on himself but he did say it.
Yes, thank you, Stephanie (and selise) – this is an admirable, clearly-written, nicely-illustrated effort to explain, step by step, the core concept underlying the Modern Monetary Theory (MMT).
[FWIW, a "-" sign in the written portion of Part II's 1988 real-world example, noting the Current Account "balance" (which was a deficit) might be advisable. It also took me awhile to notice that a key difference between Equations [2] and [3] in Part II was that one referenced the Current Account Balance, and the other the Capital Account Balance. A few definitions noted upfront or in a nearby Legend would be helpful (defining the meaning of a “closed system,” an accounting “identity,” and what specifically makes up the “Current Account” and “Capital Account” balances, for example – although you did a good job overall at keeping confusing jargon to a miminum. Finally, the notion of being “in the red” (indicating deficits) might confuse some people looking at the bright red squares, when they’re being used to illustrate that the private sector is in overall surplus.]
Some perhaps-underinformed points about the implications of the state of affairs illustrated by this diary:
1. Has it not always been the case in the United States that “spending drives our economy”? If so, does this mean that the American private-sector economy unnecessarily suffered before the era of a national income tax and big federal budget deficits?
2. It’s not a President’s job to write and enact federal policy. That’s the job of our representatives in Congress – and, in my opinion, an absolutely-urgent national priority of the Congress (if disregarded by those now incumbent, than of their replacements) ought to be an effort, through government policy, “to reverse three decades of current account deficits.”
If the argument is simply that – so long as the powers-that-be have decreed it a “good thing” that American corporations ship their jobs off-shore, to any low-wage, low-regulation haven that beckons – the federal government cannot act as though that de facto ‘dejobbing’ policy doesn’t exist, and must provide a deficit-funded cushion to the American economy until the balance of trade is on its way to being healthy again, I wouldn’t consider that position to be terribly controversial (among the people at large, of course, not the shareholders and executives of those unpatriotic, profit-no-matter-the-consequences corporations).
But if the argument is that the thirty years of intentional domestic-’dejobbing’ by American companies (aided by a purchased Congress, and permissive state-issued corporate charters) have so far destroyed the American economy that our only hope is for the federal government to deficit-fund a minimum standard of living for our people indefinitely (which your qualification of “when we tighten ours” encouragingly argues against) – well, that would seem to be a far more controversial position, even if such a policy might be theoretically feasible.
Like OFG, I don’t see the diary’s explanations of the way the economy works to be a problem (they seem sound enough, as far as they go). It’s what we make of those facts, as a self-governing people, that’s at issue. And if the loss of manufacturing and other American jobs is one of the key driving forces behind our modern “need” for (at least temporary) federal deficits, it seems it’s that ‘dejobbing’ problem that should be made the focus of the argument, rather than an economic “theory” that could, seemingly, justify dramatically different courses of action with conflicting objectives and outcomes.
no! and wow! and holy cow!
(i haven’t even started my daily reading yet! — too much good stuff going on — so thank you very much x2 for the news).
can you give me a linky? are the usual suspects (mosler, etc) all aware?
Hi Bruce, Not sure what you mean. I’m not aware of counter-evidence to the these multipliers out there yet. But if you have a link I’d appreciate it.
linky Selise:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/03/greenspan-scared-about-rising-debt_n_870879.html
“But such tax holiday will add hundreds of dollars per month per employed person to aggregate demand and to sales. When sales rise, businesses will hire because they respond to actual increases in demand.”
See here “Velocity Rolls Over”:
http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2011/06/economic-whiplash/
Selise — thanks for bring these to MyFDL. I’d seen them elsewhere.
Well, you’re free to believe that.
And I’m free to point out that we are now five months into the holiday and I’m not seeing millions of jobs created.
As I posted before, according to the BLS employment hours and earnings rose LESS in the five months of 2011 (with the payroll tax holiday) than they did in 2010.
But whatever.
I’ll give you this much. At least you’re sincere. I’d bet good money the the right wingers that continue to claim that tax cuts creates jobs don’t really believe it themselves. They just don’t want to come out and say their true motives. Which is to lower the tax burden of the rich.
great! yves x-posted this one at naked capitalism, but i think most people here don’t read all the NC posts… and as you know, i’m trying to help get these ideas included in the broader fdl policy discussions — unless someone shows me that they are wrong, in which case i’ll just stfu. of course, arguing about it would come first :)
Ugh, re-reading that and the tone isn’t what I thought, or had in mind. Sounds condescending as hell reading it again.
I’ve really got to do better at this whole communication thing.
OFG, powwow, ubetcha, and may others,
i apologize for not responding tonight, but i’ve hit the wall and need to get some sleep. i’ll be back in the am with some coffee and hopefully a couple of brain cells still working :).
best to all and than you for reading and your comments! see you tomorrow!
Velocity is a fudge factor used to say that the money balances counted in M3 are not being used for spending – and without spending there is no economic activity associated with those large money supply numbers.
It is the why of no spending that is important.
Very clear explanation of a static economy’s accounting relationships – indeed the “open” addition just says we exchange debt with other nations to keep our “balance”.
But as I pointed out before, the over time numbers do not get to growth in GDP or jobs. And indeed the Federal Reserve reports giving numbers for items that on their surface appear to be the quantities in the post’s equations do not add up correctly – meaning they are not exactly those quantities. Still the equations are true – by definition.
But the question is what is the result – as to living style, jobs, GDP. Japan has the exports, and a high savings rate as required by those equations despite high gov deficit spending – and a low GDP growth with solid employment and a standard of living that appears better than ours.
We have bad exports that should be offset by gov surplus if we are to mirror Japan, with low savings – the Clinton result more or less. Post 2000 we run gov deficits and while savings improves the economy goes off the rails as to jobs and living standard.
I don’t see MMT giving us direction – I prefer Oldfatguy’s approach of tax cuts have not worked for 30 years so screw a payroll tax cut and lets do some stimulus spending. It is a simple idea and therefore one that can work politically. A nuanced approach always ends up getting our ass kicked.
I agree with the Mark Zandi’s estimates from Moody’s of the fiscal multipliers – including the benefit of a payroll tax holiday (I was taught the original Samuelson multiplier-accelerator model by Paul S at MIT and am therefore a convert :-) ) but that is too complicated for a political slogan.
I suspect Jon Walker’s wording is more on point. Reducing health care from the projected 2021 level of 21% of GDP to Canada’s level of 11% of GDP would seem to free up a great deal – including tax money.
You are doing a great job on this – I just wish massive gov budget deficits offsetting massive trade deficits was not the selling of our country and the kids economic future to those in other countries as we try to service that debt.
If we do not service that debt via increased production – we just run gov budget and trade deficits and then issue debt – we just have a Ponsi Scheme that blows up with our country owned by others and a very low standard of living.
I am not sure MMT’s saying debt by itself is not terminal is the whole picture.
papau, have you down loaded the sectoral balances data file provided? if so, can you please pick a quarter and give a detailed explanation (with #s and sources) of what you think doesn’t add up? if you will, i’ll try to get that issue resolved.
jmo, but it not a policy road map. it provides a more accurate description of the monetary system and macroeconomy (and therefore the policy space available — which looks to be much broader than our elites are letting us in on). policies flow from our understanding (monetary system, macroeconomy, etc), but are also about our differing priorities, values and politics. with the very same understanding, i expect small government conservatives to advocate for different policies than people who favor a bigger role for government.
more to the point, this post is NOT all of MMT, just a one aspect. although a fundamental building block of the much larger whole — which is not a macroeconomic general theory (yet) and which is not static (and can never be).
finally, please take note of the “aside” at the end of the post. (and i highly recommend you join in on the MMP Q&A that is just starting).
OFG, i can’t call something “bullshit” unless i actually believe that it is. i’m so sorry, but i aspire first to be a trustworthy source — to my political allies AND also to those with whom i have honest political differences. perhaps that makes me a bad partisan because i most definitely am a political partisan (although NOT a party partisan).
on the other hand i don’t want to do things that further the meme that “all tax cuts are good.” i think that’s both 1) false and 2) for a variety of reasons, a dangerous policy, especially when tax cuts are aimed at the very top.
would it help if i put in lots of qualifications? perhaps something like the following:
fwiw, you can read more about my communication issues in general on this thread:
http://firedoglake.com/2011/04/15/late-night-we-regret-that-the-world-did-not-end-as-scheduled/
i commend you for not being convinced by what others believe (including me!) and instead demanding evidence & argument in order to be persuaded for yourself.
ubetchaiam, thanks for the link!
OFG, By Payroll Tax Holiday, I wasn’t referring to the miniscule measure by the Government late last fall. Rather, I was referring to Warren Mosler’s proposal for a full Payroll Tax Holiday for both employers and employees for as long as it takes to return to full employment. That would have about 6 times the multiplier effect of the present holiday on a monthly basis and would also last until full employment, so hat it’s a horse of an entirely different color than waht you’re thinking about.
Notice also that having such a payroll tax holiday won’t impact “the solvency of SS,” simply because there really isn’t any solvency issue except for the one created by the fantasy that the S Government can somehow run out of money. This can never happen unless Congress causes it to happen with its silly gold standard era constraints.
Finally, on higher taxes for the rich, I’m all for those. Not because the Government needs their money. It doesn’t, and the impact of taxing them would be a slight negative for the economy (about $0.30 in GDP for every dollar taxed away). However, 1) the Government can always spend on more productive activities to make up for what it is taxing away; and 2) we need to have higher taxes for the rich in order to level the economic playing field.
Over the past 40 years a great inequality gap has developed in the United States. It threatens our democracy. We need to bring things back into line by taxing away some of the wealth the rich have accumulated. After all, it’s not as if the rich have accumulating wealth legitimately through the application of genius and hard work within a free market. We all know that during the past 40 years and increasing portion of their wealth has been gathered through manipulating and subverting markets, inventing ingenious frauds, and controlling the political system to make their extraction of the wealth and financial assets of hard working people much, much easier to accomplish.
for the federal govt, dollars are not a scarce resource that need to be freed up.
real resources — people, infrastructure, etc — and productivity are the actual constraints at the macro level.
and for healthcare, i’ll argue that efficient use of real resources is not only measure of good policy… i’d also like us to have universal healthcare.
why do you think that? can you walk me through the logic please? because right now, i don’t think that’s so at all.
Papau, MMT neither advocates nor opposes increasing debts. It’s perfectly possible for Congress to allow the Treasury to deficit spend without issuing debt. Were it to do so: 1) All Federal Debt would be paid off over time; 2) the Federal Funds Rate would decline to zero; and 3) rather than adding debt instruments as net financial assets to the economy, the result of Federal Deficit Spending would be to add bank reserves.
There’s no indication that adding reserves rather than debt instruments is any more inflationary, and there’s no evidence that deficit spending is inflationary in an economy that is operating at less than full employment.
See: http://neweconomicperspectives.blogspot.com/2010/11/yes-government-bonds-add-to-private.html and:
http://my.firedoglake.com/letsgetitdone/2011/03/23/once-again-the-national-debt-is-congresss-fault/
How about linking more to historical examples of where spending worked to get the economy going Selise people might relate more to that than numbers FDR spent on the economy by putting people to work building stuff that helped our economy and that worked the best even though he build up tons of debt.
Reagan spent on a useless to our economy military build up and that did create jobs granted it did not work nearly as well as FDR’s spending the middle class got poorer as the rich got richer. Still Reagan also built up tons of debt. ( I would love to see the Trolls blow their minds if you point that out) :)
Jimmy Carter and Ford both basically did what Obama is doing not enough to stop the rise in debt and not enough to stimulate the economy and thus were one term President’s ( the Obamabots will freak over that but trolls get you traffic Selise).
Point out how well belt tightening is working for Greece, Spain etc.
Alan Abelson at Barron’s this week has a good bit about just how well/s belt tightening is working for greece, Spain etc and suggests that the policy is not working and would have to be changed.
What Alan does not get into is if the big banks have to take some losses the banks might need another bailout and all foreign debt’s interest rates will sky rocket.
“Daniel Aaronson, Sumit Agarwal, and Eric French in a new Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago working paper.
The trio examined what happened to the consumption and debt levels of households that experienced either a federal or state minimum wage hike.
First, they found that spending didn’t increase when the legislation was passed, but when it went into effect. This goes against Friedman’s theory, which assumes that a person will change spending as soon as he learns of his future income stream.
Second, spending increased by a whopping $800- to $1,000-per-quarter compared with a $250 increase in pay as a result of a minimum wage hike. This means that debt levels also rose.
“If households were spreading the income gain over their entire lifespan, the spending increases should be far smaller than what we observe in the data,” the researchers write.
So, where does the money go? The researchers found evidence that the bulk of it is spent on big-ticket items like cars and trucks. All this implies that a pay bump allows minimum wage earners to make down payments on expensive items that they wouldn’t have been able to otherwise. To me, this spending behavior seems remarkably similar to what we wanted from the $120 billion stimulus plan. So, could a minimum wage hike be more effective?
Right now, the national minimum wage is set at $5.85/hr and will get a bump in late July to $6.55/hr followed by another boost to $7.25/hr next July. The Economic Policy Institute says that 5.6 million workers will be affected by this change. Aaronson, Agarwal, and French estimate that a $1 minimum wage increase translates into a $2,000 boost in annual spending.
A back-of-the-envelope calculation (assuming that 5.6 million minimum wage earners experience a $1 gain in pay) would put new spending at $11.2 billion. The cost to businesses would be $2.8 billion in increased wages.
On the other hand, past research has shown that consumers spent about two-thirds of their stimulus checks back in 2001. This time around, that would translate into an additional $80 billion in spending. So, what’s better, spending $120 billion to stimulate $80 billion in consumption, or $2.8 billion to stimulate $11.2 billion?”
http://seekingalpha.com/article/81634-minimum-wage-hikes-vs-tax-rebates-what-s-more-effective
powwow,
just a quick reply for now….
first, i just left a more detailed reply (as i’ll try to do later here) to your previous comment on the other thread (and saw that scott had also left you a comment as i was composing mine).
http://firedoglake.com/2011/06/05/on-fauxgressive-rationalizations-of-selling-out-to-powerful-moneyed-backers/#comment-2376965
second, thank you for the excellent suggestions — i will email them to stephanie later today to make sure she sees them.
third, implications you describe will take more time… i’ll be back later for those….
and thank you again. your comments and participation on this issue are more welcome and i can say.
FYI, there are over 15 years of “Strategic Analysis” reports published at the Levy Institute largely based on the sector balances. These have been amazingly on target in terms of detailing the state of the economy, future prospects, and policy options.
Let me just respond to the argument that we need to reverse three decades of current account deficits briefly.
1. Permanently eliminating current account deficits by definition means that the US is no longer the reserve currency. In order for other countries to hold $US in reserve, by definition, they must have a trade surplus with the US.
2. MMT’ers see the primary problem as being: (a) lack of a full employment policy to offset jobs lost in int’l trade; this would enable the country to more effectively acquire the theoretical benefits from trade, (b) it is nevertheless certainly within the prerogative of policy makers to penalize or otherwise attempt to eliminate unfair trading practices, require minimum subsistence income provided to workers in competing industries abroad, require minimum environmental standards, and so forth.
update: removed errant “-” in equation 3 of part 2.
In reply to lgid, Jun 7, 12:10PM (For some reason there was no Reply button. Or I couldn’t find it.
But if this were a partial payroll tax holiday, and if payroll tax holidays create jobs, then shouldn’t a partial one create some partial amount of jobs that a full one wood?
Or are you asserting that with respect to a payroll tax holiday, it doesn’t create jobs until it reaches some point specific???
If you’re asserting that it wouldn’t create jobs unless it was the whole thing being repealed, then IMO that’s just another theory that sounds, on it face, illogical.
And if you’re NOT asserting that, then once again, I would ask where are the partial millions of jobs that a repeal of the full payroll tax would generate??
Again, all of this is just THEORY. There is no data to support it. There are folks looking at data and offering their THEORY as to how we got to that data (which is what they did to come up with multiplier effects).
But if it weren’t theory and instead were straight out fact, tax cuts creates jobs, then we cut taxes, we should see jobs. Period. And job creation in 2011 has been worse (so far) than in 2010.
I can believe it all I want (it DOES make intuitive sense) and anyone else can believe it all they want, but at the end of the day that’s all it is, a BELIEF. Because no one, at least yet, can separate all of the varaiables and say X number of jobs were created because of Y tax cuts.
And I’ll just repeat this fact: George W. Bush cut taxes more than any recent President. Ergo, if tax cuts creates jobs, and he cut taxes more than any recent President, then he should’ve had a better job creation than any recent President.
He doesn’t, he actually has one of the WORST job creation records. In fact, Clinton RAISED taxes, and had a better job creation term than did GWB.
Those are facts that can’t be challenged.
So, at the end of the day, all of us/those that believe a payroll tax holiday (or any other tax cut) creates jobs have NO DATA to back it up. We/they can surmise that maybe if it weren’t for the tax cuts we would be in an even worse situation than we are, but because we can’t separate out all the variables to confirm it, it’s still just theory. With no compelling data to confirm it.
So I still feel comfortable responding to someone that suggests tax cuts create jobs with “Maybe, but there is no data to confirm it.” Whereas, I can point to the New Deal being enacted, and I can point to GDP growth and unemployment decline, during every year of the New Deal programs save one.
I hope selise doesn’t mind, but I’ll try and explain better where I’m coming from. It does feel like I’ve hijacked the thread though, so I’ll thank selise in advance for allowing me this last attempt to explain it (*g*) and I’ll try and make this my last long winded post on the subject of tax cuts and jobs (which is really the main issue in this wonderful post by selise. which is why I feel like I’m hijacking the thread).
But could we play a hypothetical out? Let’s assume a closed economy of X people living Widgetville. In Widgetville, of the X population, Y are employed at making several different widgets. Which are then sold and consumed by X (the entire population).
Widgetville owes Snickersville (another closed economy accross the river) Z amount of rubes. In order to pay that off, Widgetville collects a 20% tax.
So X population is left with 80% of their earned rubes to spend on the various different widgets. And as a result of producing this finite number of different widgets, it employs Y people.
So a right wing President is elected to Widgetville and immediately decides to lower the tax rate from 20% to 10% because he claims it will stimulate the economy (He also, coincidentally, owns one of the different widget factories and is good friends with the owners of the others). So now, X population in Widgetville has 90% of their earned rubes to spend on the different widgets.
So what happens?
Because we don’t know all of the variables that go into a complex economy, I submit to you that the following is perfectly legitimate outcome.
With the tax rate now lowered to 10%, and X population now having 12.5% more rubes to spend, demand starts to pick up. When demand goes up, we learn from basic econ 101 that prices go up.
So, the several different owners of the several different widget factories respond to this increase in demand by increasing prices, and after a few bumps, the new economy settles back into equalibrium. Only in this new equalibrium, the EXACT same number of widgets are being produced, but are being sold at a higher price.
The net jobs gained from the tax cut is zero.
Now I make this point and the point about all we have at the end of the day is BELIEF (or a theory; that DOES make intuitive sense) that tax cuts creates jobs because in order to illustrate the following. I believe that because we can’t separate out all the variables it is VERY POSSIBLE that variables we’re not aware of actually results in tax cuts NOT leading to jobs. I just gave a simple example of ONE way in which it’s possible.
So, isn’t it at least possible that they don’t create jobs? Isn’t it at least possible that my little oversimplified example isn’t the only possible example and in fact there might be 10, 20, or even 1,000 different other factors that could negate any possible stimulative effects of tax cuts??
And if it is possible that tax cuts in fact don’t create jobs, then wouldn’t continuing to make that claim, in the political climate that we live in, be helping the right wing (or playing right into their hands is the terminology I think I used)?
Sorry for the length again.
selise, thank you for your very thoughtful reply @ 164 in the other thread.
Comments unfortunately closed in that thread before I could acknowledge your comment there (apparently “Firedoglake” threads have a shorter commenting window than “MyFDL” threads), or Scott Fulwiller’s informative and helpful follow-up @ 163, about the non-discretionary causes of most federal budget deficits. So I’ll respond to those constructive comments in this thread and comment instead.
I did have a general understanding of how the swings in the economy play a major role in non-discretionary federal budget deficits, as Scott clearly defined that term:
But I didn’t know these important facts that he detailed:
[Thanks, Scott. (You, OFG, and all of us who wrestle with the English language on-line, can but keep trying "to do better at this whole communication thing" - quoting OFG earlier in this thread... And unfortunate "tones" are inevitably going to occasionally escape our grasp; I certainly understand how and why that happens, and took no personal offense to your referenced comment.)]
selise, with regard to your comment @ 164, thanks very much for highlighting the Galbraith-written forward to Warren Mosler’s on-line book. I will make a point to read at least that much.
I’ll take your word for it, then, and voice what I perceived as the primary (off-putting to me) message in most shorthand references to MMT at FDL: An overemphasis on (what sounded for all the world like) “federal budget deficits can be ignored and should be.” If that’s the first impression received (as it was for me) from fairly general references to and recommendations to learn about MMT, I think many people will turn away before they take the time to understand the more subtle and important distinctions spelled out by Stephanie in this diary (and in comments by Randall and Scott and others late in the other thread).
In other words, it seems that Stephanie’s important qualifier of “when, or while, we tighten our belts” (then government needs to do the opposite, for the time being) is too easily lost in the focus by MMT proponents on rebutting the misleading conventional wisdom that now frames the federal deficit and debt as The End All Be All.
That doesn’t mean that I know how to best reframe the argument to prevent that… But I do think that MMT proponents should perhaps try, if they aren’t already doing so, to use the high wattage of the “deficit problem” PR to their advantage in some way – if only to pivot to a focus on the actual cause of the problem (the current account deficit caused by the offshoring of American jobs, etc.) if there is one such primary cause with which Americans can readily identify, and subsequently rally around.
The “teeter-totter” (or scale-balancing) concept seems like an important, understandable one to use to explain the necessity of temporary fluctuations in the level of government deficit spending during times of national recession. The concept of an “automatic stabilizer” during downturns in the economy is already out there – that could be built upon, perhaps.
I guess I’m basically saying that “deficit terrorists and errorists” do share some important common ground with MMT proponents – which could be used to leverage visibility for the MMT position, while hopefully tempering the deficit hysteria that’s now targeting the hard-earned savings of the American people that the Congress and President, for decades, have been requiring us to “invest” in federal government bonds to fund Social Security (and Medicare).
Unlike me, though, you’ve really done your homework on this subject, selise, and you’re right that giving people an understanding of the basic mechanics of the system is necessary to help them to engage in an informed debate about what policy solutions should be formulated based on those fundamentals. So – please carry on. Don’t let comments based on my admittedly-superficial understanding of the subject give you pause. You’ve helped take the discussion this far, and, with FDL’s further help, I hope that the deficit-as-necessary-safety-valve (which gives us time to consider our options, etc.) concept can make some meaningful inroads on the Peterson-money-contaminated national deficit dialogue.
OFG, i’m in haste, and don’t have time to reply to you (or powwow or TCU) until, i hope, later tonight, but i just wanted to quickly respond to your first bit:
with a very sincere “PLEASE DO!”
i hope you will consider it an open invitation on any diary of mine. i appreciate your comments and the ensuing discussions very much… please carry on!
Thanks, Powwow.
I’ve still got a few posts on this thread from this morning that haven’t made it through moderation somehow.
Anyway, your comments on the previous thread and then here got me thinking that one thing we should do is delineate the number of different ways that people speak of a deficit “mattering.” That is, there are several different meanings of “matter” in the context of deficits, and so, when people say we think “deficits don’t matter,” the casual reader (and usually the one making the statement) is unaware of how absolutely vague that statement actually is.
So, I think we should layout all the different ways deficits can “matter,” and then list which ones we agree with, which ones we disagree with, and explain why in each case.
I’d be interested in anyone else’s thoughts on this, or suggestions regarding different ways that any person might think that deficits “matter.”
Well said
Indeed MMT sounds a great deal like Keynes when expressed as a counter-cyclical response to the economic excess in any given direction. There is more to it of course, but that gets lost in the idea that all is solved, deficits don’t matter, if we simply sell debt to the Fed directly until we are at a full employment level, as those with economic training see the problems with that and leave the MMT discussion.
Minimum wage – a living wage perhaps – makes great sense if we also have trade barriers in place and trade affecting tax laws that point one toward getting local produced products, and indeed not moving jobs overseas.
“competitive advantage” turns out to be very moveable – as China has proven to all that want a piece of her no EPA, no OSHA, CHEAP LABOR, making trade with China a one way street to third world status.
inflation does work to create a new balance
innovation is the magic that gets new jobs, and easy credit via larger money supply that is actually being used in transactions via more disposable income helps innovation – but no one can predict “innovation” – it just happens. Greed is the motivator – innovation requires massive hard work – but studies seem to indicate that a top rate under 65% does not stop “greed” and the subsequent innovation. So all the screams about 39% versus 25% tax rates seem silly based on the studies.
Of course enough “stimulus” for shovel ready jobs and we have everyone working for the government – but that is another topic! :-)
and here’s scott fullwiler’s link (via email):
http://www.levyinstitute.org/publications/?doctype=11
Deficits matter. They add net financial assets to the non-Government sector of the economy, and help to close output gaps. They create no demand-pull inflation problems until the economy is operating at full capacity. But, note that there’s no deficit/debt problem we have to cope with either short or long-term, see: http://my.firedoglake.com/letsgetitdone/2011/04/15/tell-president-obama-and-everyone-else-theres-no-deficit-problem/ .
As for Treasury selling debt to the Fed, that’s not an MMT principle, though it’s one possible policy.
More effective policy would either remove the Congressional requirement to issue debt when we deficit spend; or use jumbo coin seigniorage to eliminate deficit spending altogether while still adding net financial assets to the real economy when spending exceeds tax revenues. See: http://my.firedoglake.com/letsgetitdone/2011/05/18/president-obama-stop-breaking-the-law-use-coin-seigniorage/ and http://my.firedoglake.com/letsgetitdone/2011/03/23/once-again-the-national-debt-is-congresss-fault/
not if it’s saved. or at least not the part of it which is saved. and that gets back to my the issues i was trying to raise in the previous yves thread.
zandi’s correlations may be better than just looking all tax cuts vs all spending increases… but there’s still lots of confounding factors and i’m not sure i buy that it is “proof” that a payroll tax cut would create millions of jobs. (really just don’t know)
i think that is probably overselling it the policy.
but a payroll tax holiday (under certain circumstances, OFG) *i think* can still be a good thing even if was all used to help households repair their balance sheets.
…. maybe scott or another expert could weigh in on this one. it may not be something suitable for a short comment, but if there’s a post or explanation somewhere… i think that would be very helpful for dealing with the political issues involved that make this discussion a hard one for progressives and big govt. proponents.
we’ve also got decades of info on IMF austerity (excuses me, “structural adjustment”) imposed on other countries at the direction, i’m pretty sure, of deecee via our treasury.
fwiw, i think that’s a great idea.
not deficits, per se, but limits on spending. i used to think that there was some limit on congress’ ability to put $$ in friend’s pockets (because i though spending had some relation to taxation and that taxation had some political limits).
so, i used to think that deficits mattered as an indirect and partial control on spending. with trust in congress running v low (last few times i looked it was in the mid to low teens), this is not one that feels very comfortable. our political system is pretty broken and there isn’t much — if anything — ordinary people can do (on their own) to hold their representatives and senators accountable.
Sorry for all of the lengthy replie (especially since they’re NOT what this post by selise is about – despite my typo above where I left out the word NOT) but just a summary.
IMO, tax cuts, “rebate checks”, or any other “stimulus” that just puts extra money in the hands of consumers COULD result in jobs. In theory. But because they could save it, give it to relatives that live in Mexico, put it in a mattress, or a million other possibilities then you can also say that tax cuts COULD result in no jobs. Especially in an economy with a huge trade surplus. Maybe all the new goods purchased with the extra money are being manufactured in China or India, so the tax cuts results in 50,000 new jobs in India and maybe 20 new port jobs in America. Or something. Or anything.
But you have the government order 500,000 new school buses from Detroit, you’re creating a shitload of new demand that wasn’t there before. And this is NOT theory, this is KNOWN new demand. And this is only the SECOND best stimulus.
Better, you hire 500,000 people to fix roads, bridges, the electrical grid, or whatever. There’s 500,000 KNOWN (not theoretical) new jobs.
That’s why when I hear someone say tax cuts leads to jobs I say BULLSHIT!. Tax cuts MIGHT lead to jobs, or they MIGHT NOT. Direct government spending or direct government hiring leads to jobs.
And that’s where I’m coming from.
Or rather, when I hear this right winger or that right winger say tax cuts leads to jobs I say “BULLSHIT, there’s no data to confirm that. If tax cuts lead to jobs we’d be swimming in jobs now thanks to the last decade plus of tax cuts.”
That’s usually my favorite response. :)
And I still feel no guilt responding that way. Even though I do somewhat agree and understand the stimulative effects of tax cuts. And that tax cuts on lower income folks should be more stimulative than tax cuts for the rich. I understand all that, and even actually agree with it IN THEORY. But I’m a firm beleiver in the KISS principle regarding politics, so until I see compelling evidence that tax cuts always leads to jobs, then I feel fine responding to right wing calls for tax cuts with what I said above.
Where’s the evidence that even a small payroll tax cut doesn’t help the economy? I haven’t seen any. I’m certainly spending mine.
All the evidence suggests tax cuts create jobs. Sorry. Those are the facts. Certain types of tax cuts create more jobs than others. For instance, reducing the payroll tax, according to all evidence, has a higher multiplier than, say, an income tax cut. There’s good evidence for that, and that’s the issue. Further, in times like these (balance sheet recession), the quicker you fix household balance sheets, the sooner the private sector returns to “normal” in terms of job creation; it’s obvious that tax cuts will do that (though they aren’t the only thing that will), but again, some types of cuts will do it better than others.
Blanket statements like “tax cuts don’t create jobs” are ideological in nature, unless evidence to the contrary can be provided.
Well said, OFG!
An idea to help cities and states the cities and states should run up debt and boost spending to create jobs if the Feds won’t. Its just a random idea Selise I thought I’d run it by you first to get your thoughts could this work? The States and cities would have to change their rules about not running up debt but if that were done I think it could work. I’m still thinking out the details of how much such small bits of spending would help and am worried it still might not be enough even if it was targeted to the most needy who are the most likely to spend their cash in the local economy.
A jobs bill fixes roads and abandoned buildings in a city ghetto they get unemployed locals. Benefits lower crime from these unemployed locals.
Unemployed locals don’t have cars so they buy local food and beer with their first check so local merchants make more money.
Local merchants in Ghettoes buy supplies from chain stores and local distributers so they make more money.
Better roads help trade fixed up buildings give people a cheap place to live. New insulation triple pane windows, roofs painted white to reflect the sunmeans people who move in save money on their power bills that puts more money into the local economy.
More money in the local economy less crime less police needed less tax expenses. Less homeless people squatting in abandoned buildings in winter less accidental fires as they try and keep warm less deaths less firemen needed less taxes.
Granted population goes up as does inflation but if you factor that in how much have taxes really gone up?
One could argue if I knew where to find the numbers that tax spending has gone up in response to population growth and inflation but stays low because of our infrastructure water treatment plants, roads, bridges, schools etc and the more we neglect them the less jobs we create and the more taxes and other expenses like healthcare go up.
The more money government spends to fix and improve society and infrastructure the more jobs it creates and the less we need police, firemen, paramedics ( no national healthcare means ambulance rides to the emergency room which is more expensive than a regular doctor’s visit which catches a problem like heart disease early).
We are in a downward spiral now as the economy goes down Obama cuts spending and infrastructure collapses thus causing the need for higher tax rates in the future.
Of course tariffs are needed thanks for pointing this out hopefully Selise can weigh in:)
scott, i think OFG would like to see the evidence that tax cuts create jobs. off the top of your head can you think of any decent references to send us to?
just my opinion, but i think there is a difference (political certainly, economics i’ll leave to you) between the two types of blanket statements:
“tax cuts don’t create jobs”
and
“not all tax cuts are good”
fwiw, in the case of certain tax cuts…. for example, say to goldman sachs. i have big doubts that the immediate impact on job creation is very good. and i expect that more $$ going to the financial industry may actually bad for job creation by the next election cycle, if it means they use it to further their influence in politics.
in general, for tax cuts to rentiers (financial, monopoly, etc), i have a hard time seeing the employment benefits (and the political ones look awful).
but i definitely don’t know and am not trying to pretend that i do. it’s just that i also need more info before being persuaded that the positive blanket statement (tax cuts are good) is both factually true and politically wise.
(btw, i defended the payroll tax cut on the EPI defense thread — when it was being used as evidence of EPI’s wrong headedness… so, i’m also definitely not attempting to say “tax cuts bad” either).
Great, link that EVIDENCE to me, and I’ll stop calling bullshit on those that claim tax cuts creates jobs.
But don’t expect me to believe an economist’s “explanation” as EVIDENCE. That’s just an economists theory.
But I’ll patiently wait while you find me the evidence. Because if you expect me to find it myself, then don’t bother. I have tried. I can’t find it.
Oh, and further, since the tax cuts have been in effect for five months now, please link to me the jobs that have been create.
Thanks.
That’s a very helpful explanation.
Perhaps what needs to be specified then, if possible, is the portion of our current account deficit that’s a minimum baseline attributable to the U.S. dollar being the world’s reserve currency, and the portion that’s due to twenty years or more of America’s corporations and private equity concerns, encouraged by Congressional policy, steadily transferring the vast majority of America’s manufacturing employment to low-wage nations competing with us. ["Monday, June 06, 2011, 6:13 PM; CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Keithley Instruments, a Solon high-tech company, is sending hundreds of manufacturing jobs to China." (A holding company named Danaher, run by two brothers, now owns Keithley.)]
That gives me pause. A “full employment policy” to “offset jobs lost in international trade” (due in large part to inducements created, in turn, by Congressional policy) with new employment – how, and where?
That is, realistically speaking, where is this meaningful, “off-setting” private sector “employment” going to come from, if not from an at least partial reversal of the ongoing outflow of American manufacturing and service jobs?
Actually the tax cuts have been in place for ten years and have not created jobs.
The Bush II presidency of ’01 to ’08 had the absolute worst job creation record of any post WWII presidency.
Then the financial meltdown made it worse.
“[O]ne thing we should do is delineate the number of different ways that people speak of a deficit “mattering.” That is, there are several different meanings of “matter” in the context of deficits, and so, when people say we think “deficits don’t matter,” the casual reader (and usually the one making the statement) is unaware of how absolutely vague that statement actually is.“
Absolutely, Scott. Well said.
Perhaps focusing instead on how federal government deficits can be, or must be, from time to time, a part of a sustainable private-sector economy would be a more productive way to summarize the MMT position about federal deficits.
In this regard, I think that selise makes a very important point about the need to avoid intimating (or openly stating) that Congress should be, or can be, given, in effect, free rein with regard to deficit spending. The obvious moral hazard, alone, for Members of Congress, which is inherent in the, to me alarming, assertion that “there’s no deficit/debt problem we have to cope with either short or long-term,” as letsgetitdone puts it below, if it in fact means what it says, argues against such assertions being made by MMT proponents who hope to influence popular sentiment or public policy.
So “deficits matter” (in a negative sense) to me because, for one, they make federal spending seem painless to Congress and the American people. We cannot, for example, easily monitor the effects or levels of our federal spending (on, say, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan) simply by taking note of our relative tax burdens over time. Deficits also do hidden damage to the purchasing value of our dollar, over time, if not in the short term – something to which we are all subjected, whether or not we recognize the source(s) of the problem (all of which I’m sure I don’t fully recognize, myself). More fundamentally, deficits put off until an unspecified tomorrow – and to unknown others who will receive the buck we passed – the hard choices that we’d rather not (and, occasionally, for good reasons, cannot) make today.
To clarify and expand on that a bit:
That MMTers “see the primary problem [behind our high deficits and debt] as being” the lack of a “policy” (presumably a Congressional policy) that would help offset earlier Congressional policy that’s been incentivizing the offshoring of American jobs, seems, perhaps, quixotic, without the specific objectives of such a policy (to encourage new private-sector jobs in which specific fields of endeavor, etc.) being likewise made a part of the MMT campaign.
Of course, I have the same complaint about the endless Congressional blather about, and fixation on “creating jobs” – a debate that never seems to meaningfully tackle the hard truths about the big picture incentives that are driving jobs out of this country, or the unavoidable economic realities (being shouted from the rooftops by MMT proponents) that dictate whether and when new private sector jobs will be created.
part of this i’m pretty sure i have this at least partially correct (i checked with bill mitchell back in nov 2009) and part i’m not so sure (haven’t re-evaluated since being introduced to MMT paradigms). hopefully scott will pitch in where he thinks i go astray.
first, here are a couple of short references:
Why Populists Need to Re-think Trade by galbraith
Thank you, President Hu by galbraith and mosler
second, here’s my comment to bill and his response (corrected a couple of minor typos):
me:
bill:
so, while i do think we do have a “de facto ‘dejobbing’ policy,” i don’t think trade is the primary cause, i think it’s intentional as a political matter (breaking the power of organized labor, cheap labor, etc). jmo, but i think “shipping the jobs to china” etc, is convenient rhetoric used to deflect our attention (and anger) away from where it belongs with one of the oldest tricks in the book: scapegoating. so-called progressive “buy-american” campaigns drive me nuts.
finally, and this is where i have not re-evaluated my prior positions, i have very strongly opposed our so-called “free-trade” policies. the things i’ve objected to are frequently non-trade related. things like: TRIPS (Trade-Related Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights), the WTO FSA (basically an enforcement mechanism for global financial deregulation), NAFTA’s chapter 11, agricultural liberalization, etc (it’s a long list). i even spent my 2003 vacation in miami organizing and protesting against the FTAA.
maybe scott will tell me that instead of getting watched by the FBI, tear-gassed, pepper sprayed, detained, etc, i should have been soaking in some sun on the beach.
but there it is: i hate our so-called trade policies AND i’m against attempting to balance our trade deficit and i favor fed govt deficits to fill the demand gap in the usa and globally (which i think our responsibility, and now i also think should even be to our advantage — if we had both a better understanding and a functioning political system).
This is all a complete red herring. “Tax cuts create jobs” doesn’t mean “tax cuts create as many jobs as you think should be created by tax cuts” or “tax cuts for the rich create more jobs than policy x, y, or z.” I never said that. To suggest that tax cuts didn’t create jobs for 10 years is similarly ridiculous–are you suggesting that in 10 years not even 1 job was created? This discussion is far too vague to even try to respond to with evidence. For instance, the blanket assertion that tax cuts create no jobs can very easily be refuted by showing that he multiplier effect of a tax cut is greater than zero–and there’s a good deal of evidence of that. I’m on my way out right now, but once the request for evidence is more precise, I’m happy to comply.
I put this in the wrong place. Here goes again:
This is all a complete red herring. “Tax cuts create jobs” doesn’t mean “tax cuts create as many jobs as you think should be created by tax cuts” or “tax cuts for the rich create more jobs than policy x, y, or z.” I never said that. To suggest that tax cuts didn’t create jobs for 10 years is similarly ridiculous–are you suggesting that in 10 years not even 1 job was created from tax cuts? Where’s the evidence for that?
This discussion is far too vague to even try to respond to with evidence. For instance, the blanket assertion that tax cuts create no jobs can very easily be refuted by showing that he multiplier effect of a tax cut is greater than zero–and there’s a good deal of evidence of that. I’m on my way out right now, but once the request for evidence is more precise, I’m happy to comply. It’s worth noting, though, that detractors haven’t attempted to provide any evidence to support their extraordinarily wide reaching claims. Any chance you can provide evidence to support YOUR claims?
i disagree with papau. see my long comment just now to powwow on trade.
races to the bottom on cheap labor and poor environmental regulations aren’t, i think, the only way to compete.
here are some alternative examples:
- universal healthcare (not a cost to business or hiring)
- universal and expanded SS retirement benefits (decrease pension benefit costs)
- same as above for SS disability insurance
- much expanded, improved and low cost national internet services (allows more work from home, low cost to businesses, etc)
and all kinds of public infrastructure (especially education and R&D) for private business to build on. transportation, communication, … long list.
maybe i’m looking at this all wrong, but i see wise public spending on public goods as a benefit to the private sector.
i don’t know TCU. but since there is an obvious — once it was explained to me :) — policy response: fed govt revenue sharing to states on a per capita basis, i think i’d rather advocate for that.
wow, we’re on entirely different planets here, OFG. i think the bs is in saying something and not caring if it is correct or not so long as it scores political points.
Well, as I’ve said, I’ll stop calling “tax cuts creates jobs” bullshit as soon as someone provides evidence that tax cuts creats jobs.
Until then, I have no guilt in responding to claims that tax cuts creates jobs with “Bullshit, there’s no data to support it.”
Like I said, as soon as someone provides me data to support it, I’ll stop.
I swear.
i think i need to correct that overly generous description. in truth, i’ve barely scratched the surface. i could happily spend a few years reading and thinking, just for curiosity’s sake. the only reason i’ve been trying to get other people interested in these new ideas before having a good enough understanding myself is that i got far enough along to be persuaded that we citizens need the very few economists doing this work and/or having this understanding included in our national discussions (such as they are). that’s why i think this needs to be a high priority (for me).
but how can you make a claim when you don’t have the same level of evidence in support that you require to stop making the claim? i mean, shouldn’t the level of evidence / argument / whatever be the same for both sides?
But that’s just it, I’m NOT making any claim.
Someone else is making the claim that tax cuts creates jobs, and I’m saying BULLSHIT to THAT claim. I’m not making a counter claim, I’m merely saying bullshit to THAT claim.
And IMO until someone provides evidence, it is bullshit. It’s up to the person that makes a claim to provide the evidence, not the person who doesn’t believe the claim. Isn’t it?
In reply to scottfullwiler, Jun 8th, 5:29 PM.
Provide evidence to WHAT claim???
I’m not making any claims. The ones that claiming that tax cuts creates jobs are the ones making the claim, and I’m saying BULLSHIT, there’s no data to support that claim.
Are you asserting that if I say bullshit to the claim that tax cuts creates jobs that I have to provide evicence that tax cuts don’t create jobs???
OK, I linked around here somewhere that job growth in the first five months of 2011 (5 months into the payroll tax holiday) is LESS THAN the first 5 months of 2011.
George W. Bush led the world in tax cuts, yet he had the WORST job creation record of any President.
If you’re asserting that I have to offer evidence of some sort then that seems like evidence to me, but I wouldn’t blame you if you decided that wasn’t good enough for you.
I would just assert that IMO I’m not making a counter claim, I’m merely calling bullshit to the claim that tax cuts creates jobs.
Let me try this:
If someone says “Tax cuts creates jobs” that’s a positive statement that I feel fine responding to with “Bullshit, there’s no data to support that.”
But if someone says “Tax cuts MIGHT create jobs” then I wouldn’t respond to that statement with “Bullshit, there’s no data to support that” because that’s not making the same claim as the statement above.
I dunno, I so fail at this communication thing that I don’t think I’m adequately expressing how I feel.
I’ll just say again that absent any data I’ll continue to respond to right wing claims that tax cuts creates jobs with BULLSHIT, there’s no data to support that claim. If tax cuts created jobs we should be awash in jobs right now after over a decade of huge tax cuts.
And we’ll have to agree to disagree.
But as soon as someone provides evidence that tax cuts creates jobs, I’ll be right onboard with you and them.
Let me also try this:
Would you agree that my oversimplified “what if” scenario is at least possible??
In other words, would you agree that it is at least POSSIBLE that tax cuts could result in no jobs???
And if you agree that it’s at least POSSIBLE that tax cuts could result in no jobs, then wouldn’t that be the “proof” necessary to assert that the theory that tax cuts creates jobs is bullshit. Because I thought to disprove a theory all you had to do was find ONE way it’s wrong??? I dunno, I might be confused on that too.
“I’m not making any claims. The ones that claiming that tax cuts creates jobs are the ones making the claim, and I’m saying BULLSHIT, there’s no data to support that claim.”
By calling BS, you are implicitly asserting that tax cuts, even $hundreds of billions, don’t even create 1 job. Do you really believe that? That’s such an extreme position that I’m not even going to take it seriously or even attempt to provide evidence to the contrary. It’s ridiculous and simple ideology. If you care to be more clear, then I’m happy to oblige. Note that I’m not the one that started this–I simply saw an outrageous statement–by you–and “called BS.”
Just quickly browsing through CBO’s publications, these 4 either find evidence for or cite evidence to suggest that tax cuts stimulate the economy (as i mentioned, quite variably). That’s just one source and five minutes of looking.
http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/110xx/doc11042/02-03-CaseyLetter.pdf
http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/108xx/doc10803/01-14-Employment.pdf
http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/89xx/doc8932/01-22-TestimonyEconStimulus.pdf
http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/32xx/doc3251/FiscalStimulus.pdf
OFG, i’m with scott on the implications of your “bullshit” statement. imo, your claim of “bullshit” is undermined entirely if even two jobs are created. so you have no basis for calling bullshit unless there really are no jobs created.
at least that’s how i understand the meaning of your statement (not saying that’s what you mean when you say it, i don’t know about that).
dakine01
“The Bush II presidency of ’01 to ’08 had the absolute worst job creation record of any post WWII presidency.”
Again, this is so vague as to not be worth taking seriously. What does “job creation” mean here? Absolute number of jobs created? It would seem to easily be the case that Bush’s record was better than someone’s if only because the population was larger during his Presidency than it was during others’.
The critiques here are so vague that they are meaningless, so the calls for “evidence” are equally meaningless until it is made clear what sort of evidence is desired. In fact, once the claims are made clearer, I may even agree with your view.
Thanks to you both, Selise and Powwow. I need to copy/paste your excellent replies here and keep them.
no.
do you call bullshit on a friend when he says “see ya tomorrow” because one of all the unlikely things that are at least POSSIBLE might happen to prevent him from seeing you tomorrow?
“China does America a huge favor by shipping goods and hoarding the securities we hold for them in return. This has real costs for China, even though the Chinese do it for their own good reasons – it helps them manage their massive ongoing urbanization. But however you count it, the benefit to America and Americans is enormous.“
Well, that’s certainly a horse of a different color…
I’m far from convinced of that, and would want to see some successful national examples of that in action, before I could begin to give that assertion credence. (Even though I’ve long had an instinctive sense that, in a choice between dollar bills and built infrastructure, for example, the owner of the built infrastructure gets the better deal – which sounds like the “real resource” concept Bill Mitchell mentions.) I obviously don’t consider America to be an example of such “success” in action, courtesy of our imports from China and elsewhere – though it seems we should be, if anyone should be, if that theory’s sound.
And with good reason, too, in my opinion, selise. But that’s coming from a proponent of “Buy American,” at least when the market alternative is a product from an undemocratic nation that underwrites abusive working conditions and damage to the environment.
There’s still a need for specifics about those “new jobs we need for Americans willing and able to work.” Those illusive “new jobs” really need to be brought out of the realm of the abstract. Because who’s to say that those new (unspecified, beyond the building and rebuilding of public infrastructure) jobs likewise wouldn’t provide us greater national “benefit” if they, too, were to be shipped overseas to China almost as soon as they’re created here?
yeah. sorry powow! just a reminder, i did say this could blow your mind (in the multiple paradigm changing way).
fwiw, i started with “bank loans create deposits” (my response: huh? don’t banks loan out deposits? wtf? next you’ll be telling down is up!). that one kinda prepared me — a little bit — for some of the mind bending stuff that has followed.
did not expect any less of you, powwow.
that’s a problem when it comes to something that provides MORE policy space than we thought possible (and it required going off of the gold standard). maybe scott has some historical or partial examples….
exactly
i don’t either. it requires we take advantage of the opportunity… which we have not done (just the opposite).
i’m on board with not buying products made with slave labor, sweat labor, etc. but that’s not the point of “buy american” — it’s favors buying american even when workers and/or the environment are treated worse here. it’s putting nationalism ahead of the values of human rights, the environment, etc that i object to.
and as a practical matter, it puts american workers at odds with workers outside our borders…. and that’s not how labor rights are advanced. solidarity between workers is what i think has worked best (should be able to give you at least an example reference on this).
ah… but the foreign sector’s desire to net save dollar based financial assets is not limitless. and that, i think, is the driver in this process. hmm… think this is a key point that i need to figure out how to describe. will think on it. scott emailed me the links to some papers. maybe there’s something in there i can use.
edit to add a p.s.: just fyi, i have an open forum over at mmtwiki.org for Q&A discussions. just getting started and spam is a bit of a problem, but i hope to keep it open regardless.
I don’ think Zandi’s data is “proof” that a payroll tax holiday will work, because I don’t think that economics or any science provides “proof” in the classical sense of that term. I do think, however, that his multiplier calculations are the best available, and have not yer been falsified.
Also, since his multiplier for payroll tax cuts is 1.3 rather than 1.7, it’s clear that no one’s claiming that that all the payroll tax cut money made available is consumed. Clearly much of it is saved, or the multiplier attached to it would be a good deal higher than the multiplier for unemployment insurance. As for whether it would create millions of jobs; we have to look at the scale of the deficit spending to get a feel for that. The Payroll Tax Cut costs the non-Government sector $1 Trillion per year; more than the addition to the Non-Government sector due to the ARA. Given the relatively high multiplier at issue, then, it seem reasonable to think that it will produce millions of jobs, unless other measures return unemployment to a rate low enough that the Payroll Tax Holiday isn’t needed any more.
Finally, I agree with Scott’s reply to OFG. There’s no evidence that the partial payroll tax holiday hasn’t created jobs. I believe that it has and that econometric analysis will show that once the data is in on its impact.
I also agree with Scott that OFG is taking an extreme position. There’s plenty of evidence to support the idea that tax cuts for the rich don’t work to create very many jobs, but the position that no jobs were created by the Bush tax cuts is belied by the facts, in my view. The Clinton era with its string of Government surpluses, and its years of generating inadequate deficits to support a trade deficit and any private sector savings desires, led to a boom funded by private sector debt — a bubble which burst at the end of his term and produced a recession for Bush. There was some recovery from the Clinton Recession in 2001 – 2003. Part of that recovery was probably due to the Bush Tax Cuts. The rest was probably due to the continue creation of bubbles, including the great housing bubble. Saying that doesn’t mean I favor the tax cuts. I don’t. I think they should never have taken place and that the deficit spending that occurred should have been devoted to programs that were more in line with public purposes.
Such spending would have been more effective on a dollar-for-dollar basis both from a value standpoint and from the standpoint of producing a stronger recovery from the Clinton recession. In addition, I think the tax cuts were very undesirable because they added to inequality in the United States, and exacerbated the trend toward plutocracy. But saying the above is not the same as making the ridiculous statement that the Bush tax cuts did not create one single job.
OFG, I agree that it’s possible that tax cuts with very low multipliers could result in no or very few jobs. This is certainly a possibility, since the proposition that tax cuts result in at least some new jobs is an empirical proposition which could be false. However, the fact that this is possible doesn’t refute the proposition that tax cuts creates jobs without empirical data showing a case where it didn’t create jobs.
Also, I, too find your views very vague. To show that any specific tax cut did not create jobs, you need empirical data AND a model that measures the impact of the tax cut and shows that that tax cut didn’t create even a single job. Showing this is a tall order. It is not enough to show that the number of jobs declined or failed to grow after the tax cut in question. You have to show that the decline or the failure to grow is due to the tax cut rather than other causal factors. This requires statistical analysis that can hold the factors other than the tax cut constant so that the effects of the tax cut can be estimated.
This reply is for powwow at: http://my.firedoglake.com/selise/2011/06/06/stephanie-kelton-what-happens-when-the-government-tightens-its-belt/#comment-183942
You said:
No this is not a productive way to state it because it is not so. The implication of the sectoral balance model is that if one wants to run a trade deficit, and one also wants to have the private sector accumulating net financial assets, then federal government deficits are necessary, and that the amount of the deficit must equal the sum of the leakages of demand to trade and to private sector savings if one also intends to have full employment.
In view of this implication of the model, I think that the MMT position is not that deficits are from time to time useful for a sustainable US economy, but rather the MMT position is that 1) they are the norm if we want a sustainable full employment economy, and 2) that it is surpluses that from time-to-time may have a role in a sustainable private economy, when and if our objective is to remove excess demand and demand-pull inflation.
You may be interested in this piece by Randy Wray on the Household analogy. It also includes a bit of history on the aftermath of surpluses and attempts to pay down the national debt. It’s not proof of anything. But the history is quite striking: http://www.newdeal20.org/2010/02/10/the-federal-budget-is-not-like-a-household-budget-heres-why-8230/
First, I don’t believe in trying to influence public policy by avoiding asserting what I believe is the case. People are telling us that we can’t afford to solve our problems because we have short-term and/or long-term deficit problems. That’s just false and people have to be made to understand that it is.
Second, the statement that there’s no deficit problem either short or long-term was made with reference to the Government solvency issue. The dominant view right now is that our deficits/debts must be contained or we will run out of money. This is the excuse the austerians use to oppose deficit spending on jobs, health care, education, infrastructure, new energy foundations, etc, and it is flat out false. And that is the MMT position that I have blogged endlessly here at FDL.
Third, as far as giving Congress free rein to deficit spend is concerned. Congress has that free rein now. Its free rein is given by the Constitution of the United States. To take away that free rein would be to further restrict the scope of our democracy, which is exactly what the austerity partisans want. That is, they want to use procedures, constitutional amendments, return to the gold standard and other devices to place constraints on Congress that benefit them. And they want to call that fiscal responsibility, while at the same time they let 25 million Americans remain un- or under-employed, and also see to it that myriad other policy problem remain unsolved because “we can’t afford to solve them.”
Still further, I have never said, nor have any MMT writers I’ve read that Congress should use its free rein to spend indiscriminately. The majority of MMT proponents, though not the conservatives among us are (John Kenneth) Galbraithians, in that we believe that all Congressional appropriations should be aimed at accomplishing public purposes including full employment and price stability. So, we believe that Congress should be held accountable to that standard, and that no spending, deficit or otherwise, should occur that has no justifiable public purpose, and is only for private benefit.
I’ll reply to the remainder of your comment separately, but would like to end this with two quotes from comments by Randy Wray posted by selise here: http://firedoglake.com/2011/06/05/on-fauxgressive-rationalizations-of-selling-out-to-powerful-moneyed-backers/#comment-2376039
and here in an earlier reply to powwow: http://firedoglake.com/2011/06/05/on-fauxgressive-rationalizations-of-selling-out-to-powerful-moneyed-backers/#comment-2376618
So, to summarize, there is no short or long-term deficit/debt problem with respect to solvency. We certainly do have problems of spending on the wrong things. In my view much of what we spend is on the wrong things, but this is not a problem of deficit spending. It is a problem of poor representation and our failure to hold our representatives accountable for their actions, and especially their inaction in solving the myriad problems besetting our country.
Well, sorry to all.
I’m not intending to be vauge, I’ve stated about a dozen times this bottom line:
If tax cuts creates jobs, then show me the evidence.
Period.
End of story.
Usually the person making the claim is the one that is supposed to provide the evidence. OTHERS (not me) are making the claim that tax cuts creates jobs. Fine, show me the evidence. Without evidence, LIKE ANY OTHER CLAIM ANYONE ELSE WOULD MAKE WITH NO EVIDENCE, I’d call bullshit.
I don’t get what’s so vague about that.
If everyone is so sure that tax cuts creates jobs, then it shouldn’t be a problem to show me the evidence.
But you can’t because there is no data to support it. There is only theory.
So, we’ll leave it at you guys are free to believe in the theory that tax cuts creates jobs and I’m free to call bullshit on that claim until someone provides evidence.
Hope I didn’t under folks skins, I know “beating an issue to death” was one of my ex-wife’s major claims about me. I get on an issue and then….. well you get it.
Hope you all have a good evening, and hope you’ll just understand that I’ll be glad to join you in supporting that theory as soon as someone provides evidence.
For me, it’s just the simple fact that we’ve had over a decade of huge tax cuts, we just passed more last year, and there is still no data to support the claim. Good night.
This reply is also for powwow at: http://my.firedoglake.com/selise/2011/06/06/stephanie-kelton-what-happens-when-the-government-tightens-its-belt/#comment-183942 and replies to the reminder of his comment which follows interleaved with my replies:
powwow, I understand this point of view,but the truth is that Federal spending is “painless” in itself. See: http://my.firedoglake.com/letsgetitdone/2011/02/26/federal-spending-doesnt-cost-anything/ To make it painful by imposing artificial constraints simply distracts attention away from the real issue which is whether a federal program is producing effects that accord with public purposes or do not do so. Federal programs that are painful, and don’t deliver benefits that justify the pain should be terminated. We need the kind of accountability that will get Congress to make these kinds of choices. We don’t need an artificial discipline generated by a mythological belief that deficits are negative in themselves to get Congresspeople to cut federal programs on an arbitrary or wholly political basis which is what we’re seeing now.
Btw, the narrative that says that “deficits are negative” and “surpluses are positive is terribly damaging. We must get rid of this narrative. See: http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=14448
Are you really suggesting that we should evaluate our efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan based on what they cost based on a false theory about deficits leading to insolvency? I can’t agree. Our results in Iraq and Afghanistan aren’t negative because they’ve cost too much or are responsible for a lot of our deficit. They are negative because their consequences when we look at the real non-monetary costs of these wars, including the damage done to our legal system, our national values, and all the lives lost as a result of these interventions, are terrible. Congress should end the wars by withdrawing funds immediately, but not because these efforts add to the deficit and the debt.
Here you’re assuming that there’s a connection between deficit spending and debasement of the currency. This may seem obvious to you. But I don’t think there’s empirical evidence for the connection you’re hypothesizing. Of course, the purchasing value of the dollar has declined over time, but for the past 100 years incremental changes in incomes have outpaced incremental changes in prices, so that real incomes and real wealth have increased over this period. So, what I’m saying is that the purchasing value of the adjusted dollar has probably increased rather than decreased over time.
I don’t see that deficits have anything to do with letting us escape from hard choices. Are deficits the reason why we won’t regulate the banksters and the fraudsters? Are deficits the reason why we haven’t re-imposed something like the Glass-Steagall Act? Are deficits the reason why we’ve chosen to look forward and not backward at what the banksters, fraudsters, and torturers have done and are doing.
I guess your comment above relates to the idea that the accumulating debt which accompanies our deficits will somehow constrain the fiscal capacity of our kids and grandkids whose choices will be restricted. But why should that be so, if our Government has no solvency constraints?
I’ve written about the kids and grandkids here: http://www.correntewire.com/fairy_tales_coming_state_union_our_grandchildren_must_have_burden_repaying_national_debt
Warren Mosler’s written about them here: http://www.moslereconomics.com/?p=8662/ pp. 30-39.
The bottom line here is that the only burden we’ll impose on our grandkids is the burden resulting from failing to use Government deficit spending to facilitate our creating real wealth for our children and grandchildren to inherit.
OFG, it’s not a simple fact. We’ve had a decade of tax cuts that were disproportionately targeted toward the wealthy. While there’s 1) no evidence that many jobs were created by these cuts; there’s also 2) no evidence that no jobs were created; and 3) there’s also no evidence that different kinds of tax cuts wouldn’t have been more effective.
According to Zandi’s multipliers which are estimated from data, and not purely from theory, we would have expected the Bush tax cuts to be largely a failure, since they had a fiscal multiplier of only .3 or less. On the other hand, the same study suggests that if Bush had passed a payroll tax holiday we would have recovered from the Clinton recession much more rapidly than we did.
hey OFG, did you check the links from scott above?
http://my.firedoglake.com/selise/2011/06/06/stephanie-kelton-what-happens-when-the-government-tightens-its-belt/#comment-183958
now, the evidence may not be persuasive to you for a variety of reason. but you can’t keep claiming (well you can, but it kinda looks silly) that there is “no data to support it” unless you’ve actually, um, looked at the data and found it wanting in some way. but then it’s up to you to say why.
Exactly. And you get much the same multipliers from the Fairmodel, also estimated with real-world data. Probably not a coincidence.
“George W. Bush led the world in tax cuts, yet he had the WORST job creation record of any President.”
Again, way too vague to be meaningful. What does a “job creation record” mean?
OFG’s conveniently ignoring evidence he asked for. Ideology will do that to a person.
“Are you really suggesting that we should evaluate our efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan based on what they cost based on a false theory about deficits leading to insolvency?”
No. As I think I made clear in my reply to Randall’s clarifying comment about the MMT view on insolvency – that there’s no threat of that for the United States – in the other thread (in a comment right below the comment about Randall’s not intending to be “clever,” which you’ve quoted just above in this thread).
I have to say that one concept regarding your position on federal government deficits (whether or not it’s also the formal position of the MMT academy), is beginning to overwhelm any other thoughts about the matter for me; specifically, the concept that:
Money really does grow on trees, at least for the federal government.
And since that concept, in my opinion, pretty much defies every lesson of human experience – as does, I think, expecting federal politicians or their constituents to give a tinker’s damn about how much money we’re spending at the federal level, if it never has to be raised from taxes, and never has to be paid back – I’m afraid that I remain less than persuaded by your arguments about unbound deficit spending, to put it mildly.
And not to dodge the logical follow-on question you asked, since I don’t consider United States solvency a likely outcome of our current deficit spending:
“But why should that be so [that our deficits/debt will eventually need to be paid off, or lowered, or else serious negative consequences (constraints on our fiscal capacity) will ensue], if our Government has no solvency constraints?“
I don’t consider the threat of national default a genuine threat at this time, in the “exceptional” circumstances in which the United States has been fortunate enough to find itself, post-World War II.
However, unlike, apparently, the MMT academy, I am not so sanguine about what the future holds in that department, and think that discretion is the better part of valor here, such that we should not be living, as a nation, as though money really does grow on trees, and will do so indefinitely.
I am, in other words, standing on a middle ground, which you don’t seem to recognize, between those at one extreme who claim we will soon be forced to default, and those on the other who claim that infinite borrowing (properly manipulated, from time to time) is the answer to all our problems. A middle ground that tries to recognize and learn from the lessons of history (including many sound tenets of the MMT), while responsibly anticipating how the government’s actions (or inactions) today are most likely to impact the future of our nation and its people.
That should have been:
And not to dodge the logical follow-on question you asked, since I don’t consider United States insolvency a likely outcome of our current deficit spending…
i think this is both wrong and incredibly unhelpful (confusing, not clarifying).
quoting wray:
federal govt spending can be quite painful.
the consequences and constraints are not the ones we’re been told to believe (raising revenue, paying dollar based debts back in something other than dollars, etc) but that doesn’t mean fed govt. spending (or taxing) is without consequence or constraint.
yeah. but we don’t have that. we have a broken political system with somewhere between zero and very little accountability to ordinary people.
imo, just as it is important to come to grips with the reality of how fed govt finance really works, i think it is also important to come to grips with the reality of how fed govt accountability isn’t working.
amen!
here’s a small example: the dollar is currently main global reserve currency. but imo it would be irresponsible to assume that will always be the case.
I’m actually surprised that you agree with me there, selise. That sort of caveat – about the uncertain future of the main global reserve-currency status of the U.S. dollar, and the serious implications thereof – doesn’t seem to come through in many of your FDL comments relating to MMT (or at least relating to the deficit/debt). So it’s good to know that you heartily agree, and have expressed that specific cautionary note about what the future may hold.
And to be fair, while proving that I have in fact read Jamie Galbraith’s (beautifully-written) Foreward to Warren Mosler’s on-line book, I acknowledge, letsgetitdone, that you are certainly not alone in stating, in effect, that “money grows on trees,” at least for the federal government:
So I’m obviously disagreeing with others too – without offering any sort of rigorous proof that their researched claims are wrong, beyond reference to truisms like ‘if money for nothing sounds too good to be true, it probably is (too good to be true).’
powow, i think there’s a difference in saying “spending is painless,” which i don’t agree with and “money grows on trees,” which i’m not sure i agree with.
this is probably going to seem like a really weird question… but, what do you mean by “money?”
p.s. thanks v much for reading galbraith’s forward to mosler’s book.
sorry about that. i think you’re right.
my guess is that it’s because i do think there is an immediate crisis (not the deficit) and right now i’m trying to yell “fire!!!” as loud as i can instead of talking about the dangers of drowning.
Econobuzz, I very much agree with selise’s reply to you. I don’t think it’s about “chilling.” It’s about critical analysis of a very toxic frame about fiscal policy that has been hurting progressive political efforts grievously for many years now. I’ve written about this frame and the damage it causes very frequently myself, here are some recent examples:
http://my.firedoglake.com/letsgetitdone/2010/12/26/altogether-now-there-is-no-deficitdebt-problem/
http://my.firedoglake.com/letsgetitdone/2011/01/14/fairy-tales-of-the-coming-state-of-the-union-fairy-tales-and-truths/
http://my.firedoglake.com/letsgetitdone/2011/02/26/trouble-is-when-we-take-the-truth-off-the-table/
http://my.firedoglake.com/letsgetitdone/2011/03/18/bill-mitchell-on-the-austerity-war/
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/05/25/978904/-The-Very-Idea-of-A-Long-term-Deficit-Reduction-Plan
and
http://my.firedoglake.com/letsgetitdone/2011/04/13/its-all-in-the-framing-and-thats-terrible/
The toxic frame involved is that the Government has fiscal constraints because it can run out of money, and that to avoid that consequence fiscal sustainability and responsibility require managing deficits and the public debt such that the Government’s debt to GDP ratio will be stabilized over time. Deficits may be desirable for the short term, but basically the narrative is that deficits are negative (a problem), surpluses are positive (a goal to be sought and achieved) and the priority of specific fiscal policy measures must be subordinated to the need to stabilize that debt-to-GDP ratio at a level consistent with sustainability.
We believe that this frame is false, because the Government cannot run out of money, does not, like other entities, need to fund its spending, and can always generate more net financial assets as long as it maintains its monopoly over the currency. Fiscal responsibility in this alternative frame, requires that the Government deficit spend as necessary to accommodate the desires of the non-Government sector to save and import goods, while still maintaining full employment and price stability, and that specific Government spending programs should be aimed and evaluated according to the standard of the public purpose.
Moving to Jon Walker’s viewpoint, even though he’s very favorable to forgetting about the deficit in these times and prioritizing progressive spending over deficit/debt management right now; it’s also pretty clear that he believes that growth in the national debt due to large deficits represents a long-run problem. He says:
The wording clearly suggests that if unemployment were lower, and Treasury yields higher, then it might not be madness to worry about a long-run debt problem, and also that liberals might not reduce the deficit to a low priority once the economic climate changed. In contrast, My view, however, is that it’s never sensible to worry about the level of the national debt, or a long-run debt problem, because whatever the debt level is, as long as the Government is sovereign in its own currency, it’s capability to add net financial assets to the non-Government economy is unimpaired, and so, there is no problem.
Above I’ve pointed out that deficit spending under certain conditions may need to be reduced or eliminated because it is causing inflation. However, the United States doesn’t have such a deficit problem right now, and as I said just above it also can have no long-run debt problem despite the big deficits it’s been running, and may continue to run. So, I’ve been saying far and wide, that the US has “no defcit/debt problem,” and I think that statement is true for now and for the forseeable future.
I also believe that deficits are the norm, not just during this economic recession, but even after full recovery is achieved. The implication of Stephanie Kelton’s piece here: http://my.firedoglake.com/selise/2011/06/06/stephanie-kelton-what-happens-when-the-government-tightens-its-belt/ is that a nation like the United States may well have to run continuous deficits and that this may be better for its population, through all stages in the business cycle.
Consider, if the private sector imports 3% of GDP more than it exports, and also wants to save 7% of GDP to repair household balance sheets that were decimated by the recent collapse; then, to accommodate these desires the Government will have to spend 10% more than it taxes every year that the private sector wants to do these things. This is just a consequence of the sectoral balance model.
I see no reason why the private sector wouldn’t want this to happen for years on end, as long as foreign nations are willing to send us their real wealth in return for the electronic bits of information we call dollars. If so, we’re probably looking at permanent deficits without any negative consequences including demand-pull inflation. So, in sum, I think progressives should be pushing for all the spending we think is needed to solve America’s problems. Now is the perfect time, since we have a long way to go before we see pressure from demand-pull inflation, to go on the attack and to deny the deficit hawk frame entirely and educate the public to the fact that the deficit hawk/dove framing of deficits is just a rationalization for the Government not fulfilling its responsibilities to help us solve our very grave economic and societal problems.
At one time in American history, after the New Deal and WWII; the public believed that it was the Government’s responsibility to see to it that there was full employment and price stability. During the 70s, we allowed the Government to escape this responsibility, partly because we bought off on monetarism and the idea that monetary policy was more effective than fiscal policy. I think we need to go back to fiscal policy, to subordinate the Fed to the Treasury, and to make the Congress and the Executive Branch responsible once again for the economic consequences of their policies.
I posted this last comment here in error and would appreciate if the Mods would take it down. Thanks.
That makes sense (although it may mean that “your side” is playing too much defense against one extreme, and not enough carefully-designed offense calculated to persuade those of us parked in the middle somewhere).
selise, If you note the post I link to here: http://my.firedoglake.com/letsgetitdone/2011/02/26/federal-spending-doesnt-cost-anything/
then I think you may agree that what I say about deficit spending being “painless” is in paradigm. So, I’d like to suggest you read it and if you still disagree, then critique it as best you can.
My piece certainly doesn’t say that the consequences of spending deficit or otherwise are “painless,” as you seems to be suggesting, but only ties the notion of “painless” into the idea that the Federal Government is sovereign in its currency.
I’m sorry that you find the way I’ve framed this confusing and unhelpful, but i disagree that my view of this wrong, nor do I agree that it is confusing and unhelpful. Though I’m certainly willing to let others be the judge of that.
powwow, thanks for expressing your self in such a clear fashion. I think I understand your discomfort, but two points in reply. First, not all of human experience applies here. Only the experience of Governments sovereign in their fiat currencies. That experience dates pretty much from 1971; and not one such Government has yet run out of money.
And second, I understand your preference for the middle ground on issues. That has come up again and again in previous exchanges with you. However, contra Aristotle, the middle ground sometimes makes no sense.
The difference between neo-liberalism and MMT is a difference in paradigm. In one the reasons why sovereign Governments can run out of money are specified. In the other, the reasons why they can’t run out of money are also specified.
You can’t accept the MMT paradigm and still believe that a Government sovereign in its own currency can become insolvent if it doesn’t choose to do so for political reasons. That is, according to MMT, a Government sovereign in its own currency can’t be forced into insolvency by international markets or other economic factors. There really is no middle ground here without a third paradigm that somehow squares the MMT view with the neo-liberal view. I don’t see that you’ve formulated that; so I think the position you hold is based on vague beliefs about middle grounds and moderation. That’s fine. But it’s not reason and provides no basis for progressive political action.
So, I look forward to the day when you do develop a theory or paradigm that gives your middle ground some basis in how the monetary system actually works.
By “money” I mean the dollars the U.S. government spends, if that helps.
This isn’t about some need of mine to be on the middle ground, lgid. I’ll try once more to convey my (evolving) position, as I believe the commenting window here is about to close.
Working off admittedly-limited research, and focusing in particular on this ‘painless or necessary deficits’ question (while recognizing that the operational facts are that all the government does to “create money” these days is to push a button on a computer keyboard), here’s a tentative impression I’m receiving about the MMT federal money debate:
I perceive some MMT proponents to be trying to reframe an extraordinary period in American history – a time of historically-high government deficits and debt, but historically-low interest rates for government borrowing – as the “new normal,” in a way that’s beginning to remind me of the sense I had during the peak of the housing boom. I didn’t know the major contributing factors that created the housing boom (the Wall Street pressure for ever more loans to repackage and ‘collateralize’, etc.), but I was positive that the situation was simply not sustainable. Meanwhile, a cottage industry of players was describing what has turned out to be an abnormal, short-lived period of great excess as the “new normal” for the American housing market and economy.
The housing boom was proven to be primarily a confidence game, with little real justification for its years of existence (which, upon collapse, generated a lot of pain for those at the bottom, but little for those at the top who drove it, and finally ended it). Can’t the same be true of the present ‘seemingly-painless-government-debt’ era of the wider American economy? As with the housing boom, there are heavily-invested players with enormous incentives to keep the game going, who are working overtime to prevent a change in the status quo.
But just as suddenly transformative and unpredicted as the Lehman bankruptcy was for the Wall Street home mortgage game, probably few can know or predict with precision what factor might suddenly change present circumstances enough to make us wish we’d stopped unnecessary deficit spending by our government long before now.
In the end, even if ‘money growing on trees’ were to become the accepted definition of the spending power of the federal government, I’d probably be in the camp of those insisting that we need more than the free will of our representatives, plus endless “free” money at their disposal (or at the Federal Reserve), to keep our federal government in check, even if the bills Congress ran up, or the spending they ordered, was done with money manufactured out of thin air, that never needed to be accounted for in any way.
powwow, i’ve got some quibbles with the above, but for the sake of what i think it a bigger point, let’s go with it for now.
how about predicting where our current circumstances are leading? not spending comes with real risks too. and real costs – big ones.
of course we can’t know with certainty, but prudence isn’t always about sitting tight until it’s very clear what action is best. sometimes prudence involves addressing the crisis that’s staring us in right in the face.
i’m not suggesting ignoring all the long term possible factors that may change. what i am advocating is that we don’t let that (or the years of deficit fear mongering propaganda) prevent us from addressing the situation we’re in right now (which is not a possibility, it’s a current reality).
here’s a bit from last year’s teach-in:
and a bit later…
p.s. fwiw, i plan to post something soon (or by next week at the latest) to follow up on this post.
p.s. to powwow,
the fed sets the short term interest rates. (i’ll just assert if for now, recognizing that’s not going to be enough).
selise – Aren’t many of the “deficit hawks” and the “inflation hawks” (see: the Federal Reserve) people heavily invested in maintaining the confidence game, and the stacked deck, needed to keep the world’s investments in the U.S. dollar high despite our debt load, and/or the stock market rolling along?
If so, don’t we know where they’re coming from, and why? It’s not because they somehow don’t understand the real costs and benefits of government spending to the American people. They simply want to put up a front of doing something meaningful for Americans (aside from side effects like keeping the cost of federal borrowing low), while tending to the concerns of other nations heavily invested in U.S. assets…
I agree with you that, right now and for the foreseeable future, we’ve got non-deficit-lowering domestic employment issues screaming for attention. But does that mean that making at least some nod toward lowering future wasteful deficit spending in the process of solving the employment problem (as in implementing Medicare For All) couldn’t be a part of the solution? [As referenced above, that's some of the common ground that I think that MMT people could share with the "deficit terrorists and errorists," if we could get past the "neoliberal" and "MMT" labeling (labels that probably whiz high over most people's heads) and actually engage one another.]
I’ve been discussing the deficit as though we weren’t in a current employment crisis, because the deficit subject screams of moral hazard to me, with regard to Congress. But regardless of whether or not the world’s experiences with sovereign fiat currencies since 1971 can be safely declared the new normal, never mind what came before 1971, our focus right now absolutely needs to be elsewhere. Thus, I hope your upcoming diary will center on your preferred policy solutions (and why), and avoid being unnecessarily trapped or diverted by damaging myths that most of the tall tale-tellers probably know are myths. In other words, even though Congress obviously isn’t listening, let’s hear, spun your way, in that diary or another, the Congressional policy agenda that’s best for the American people – never mind the counterproductive (for us) agenda of the Ownership Class for the time being.
i am very strongly persuaded that the above is true… but ONLY if “our debt load” refers to our PRIVATE, not public, sector debt.
i like the term debt-peonage.
but more to the point, here is a bit from a talk by galbraith (which i transcribed and posted with his permission), “The Implications of Rising Resource Costs for Economic Systems“:
pretty gruesome if true. (for some background that i think may help explain some of this pov, please see the two galbraith links in the paragraph beginning with “it’s a catch-22.”)
first, i think plenty of people actually don’t understand (stuck in gold standard thinking or something) and are acting with the best of intentions. others may have some understanding and are trying to work “within the system.” others, i expect, aren’t acting intentionally maliciously, but they just can’t see beyond themselves, or their circle or their class or their tribe.
second, and this is just me, i think there are people who do know the score and using that knowledge for their own benefit (whether because they can’t see or don’t care beyond their own selves, circle, etc). i think i have some clues about why, but they have nothing to do with “tending to the concerns of other nations heavily invested in U.S. assets.” in fact, i think that’s a convenient deflection that serves their interests (as does “buy american”), because then we look at foreign “others” as the sources of our problems. and this is, imo, not just wrong but an unwise thing to encourage because it leaves the field wide open for a right-wing demagogue to successfully scapegoat some innocent, weak third party (or maybe worse, no-so-weak. i’m not anxious for another world war).
good! because the damage being done is not easy to turn around and the longer this goes on the bigger the losses to our country (in addition to the needless human suffering, as if that wasn’t enough). there’s a path dependency to the losses being suffered: think of the young people just coming out of college with student loans and greatly diminished prospects for that first good job; and how that will affect the rest of their lives (in terms of lost opportunities as well as lost wages), and how that will affect the next generation. we’re throwing away a massive amount of human capital potential (labor, creativity, ingenuity and more). that is a REAL loss and it diminishes us as a people and as a nation.
have to define “wasteful deficit spending” — and i think this where we are still talking about different things. (i’m pretty sure you are talking, at least in part, about dollars(?) while i’m talking about resources). with regard to dollars, the fed govt is more like a scorekeeper than a household. this is an analogy i learned from warren mosler that has helped me understand the distinctions (whether or not you agree with them): if there’s a high scoring baseball game that goes into extra innings, does anyone ever worry about about the scoreboard from running out of or wasting points? no.
i know what it means to waste resources. i don’t know what it means for our fed govt to waste dollars.
i strongly favor an enhanced and expanded medicare for all (and if you recall i got A LOT of grief for maintaining that position in the face of a well funded po propaganda campaign/con). but not because medicare-for-all would save the fed govt from spending dollars. i support it because universal healthcare is a moral issue for me and because real resources are being wasted (isn’t the productivity of our people our greatest natural resource?).
are you saying that i, or much worse the mmt academics, have not actually been engaging with others? (please see this for another pov). or is that you expect me to remain silent in the face of what i think is an EXTREMELY ignorant and dangerous decision to parrot the D party line? i doubt that is true, even if you disagree with me. but wow does that one sting. fwiw, [deleted -s]
i understand, and i think that’s legit. however, i want to point out that the moral hazard is already in place — and the people who are willing to throw hundreds of billions if not trillions bailing out the banksters (or starting wars over control of natural resources) are lobbying for what benefits them. i want the american people to have the knowledge to at least represent their own interests. this diary is over a year old and a bit of a polemic, but the first part will give you some of my background thinking on this issue: Time to Sweep the Vampire Squid Off Our Faces and Make Room for the Real Change.
it’s a catch-22. the policy solutions run head long into the myths (see, for example, OFG’s response on this thread to the suggestion of tax cuts). so it’s a circular process of policy proposals followed by education and myth busting, rinse and repeat. the tall tale-tellers may know they are myths, but the rest of us don’t — and that’s a problem. but i’ll take your advice seriously and see what i can do. as my quick economic policy summary (taken from the economists who make the most sense to me), here’s what sounds good to me: 1) complete payroll tax holiday, 2) national guaranteed jobs problem, 3) federal revenue sharing to the states on a per-capita basis, 4) national infrastructure investment, 5) policies to deal with potential real resource constraints (see energy), 6) massive down sizing of our financial sector, 7) re-regulation in critical areas and 8) fair trials where called for (especially for elite fraud). for a hopeful and informative take, i strongly recommend galbraith’s book, The Predator State (published in aug 2008) and for a shorter and more pessimistic take of what progressives need to do, there is galbraith’s talk last fall before the ADA (i’ve posted it here as, “James K. Galbraith: We Need to Make an Honorable Fight… the Fate of the Entire Country is at Stake.”
[ok. all done. i think! -- s]
This is a reply to powwow at http://my.firedoglake.com/selise/2011/06/06/stephanie-kelton-what-happens-when-the-government-tightens-its-belt/#comment-183992
Thanks for your thoughtful comments expressing your misgivings about claims you perceive some MMT writers are making. I’ll reply to them in a separate post, since commenting room is running out here and I think your raising some general concerns that others may have.
[I'm very surprised to see this comment thread still open...]
While you work on “revising and extending” your 7:34 a.m. comment, selise, let me try to better articulate the underlying motivation for my comment @ 1:50 a.m.:
As my paragraph focusing on Kent Conrad – and the dangerous, undemocratic practice of substituting small, backroom Party “Gangs” for publicly-accountable legislating by our federal representatives – in this comment indicates, I see no way to actually achieve the best policy objectives for the American people without the involvement of Members of Congress.
If we take the necessity of Congressional involvement as a given, then our arguments in favor of those good policy objectives must be able to persuade the intended, unavoidable audience: Members of Congress (as well as the broader public and the media, etc.). And, without a doubt, concerns about the federal deficit and debt are being mouthed almost unanimously by Members of Congress today, led or followed by the media.
Thus, can there be any hope of successfully advancing a policy objective in Congress if the arguments in favor of that objective pay no heed to those professed Congressional concerns about deficit spending – never mind if those arguments claim that all those legislative concerns about the deficit are completely without foundation and frivolous, or worse?
I very much doubt it. Thus, it seems to me that to have any chance of realistically impacting the Congressional debate, regardless of the truth of, or one’s belief in, the ‘harmless/necessary deficit’ theories of MMT proponents, those theories must be tempered and subsumed in the short term in exchange for trying to advance the wider, near-term policy objectives of those proponents.
Which means, from my perspective, finding a way to sell your policy objectives to Congress by including some acceptable-to-you form of debt/deficit reduction over the long term – so that your primary, employment-related objectives have some hope of being embraced by Congress. That would also help your objectives to tap into the forward motion that’s been created by the heavy publicity promoting the “deficit problem.”
This may sound like anathema to MMT proponents (assuming, again, that their main objective is to do more than win an academic debate, or score debating points). But, realistically, I honestly don’t see how MMT ideas have any hope of influencing the Congressional debate, if those promoting the ideas adamantly refuse to acknowledge the obvious, sincerely-held in many cases, intentions of legislators to do something that they can credibly claim will lower the public debt load of the nation – even if it’s only as a secondary achievement to a near-term policy of increasing domestic employment.
on this i must seriously disagree with you. i don’t think members of congress (or at least not enough of them) are motivated by persuasive arguments about what it is in the best interest of the people they are supposed to represent.
jmo, but i think this calls for social movement politics, which means effectively taking our demands to our representatives is still a little way off. (as an aside, i strongly recommend this book: Doing Democracy and i previously typed up, in a comment, a little from chapter one that is on point).
i’m sorry, i can’t do that. it’s not about point scoring. i think it would be unhelpful, wrong and dishonest…. and undermine the public debate i think we need to have.
when members of congress (as well as many members of the public), many i think with sincerely-held intentions of keeping americans safe from iraq’s WMD and support for al queda, favored starting a war…. the best i think i could do was try to point out the lack of good evidence for either (in words and in deeds).
this seems to me, at least in some ways, very much the same kind of issue. i think someone has to be willing to shout “the emperor has no clothes” instead of finding ways to use the public’s false beliefs.
maybe i’m wrong. that’s why i want the public debate. i don’t want to be in charge of deciding what is to be done. i want a fair hearing for what i think is true and what i think is needed. and then i want to hear back from my co-citizens as we decide together what to do.
Ideology?
You mean like right wing ideology that believes tax cuts are good for the economy despite the fact that we’ve had huge tax cuts for over a decade yet jobs are our number one priority??
Ideology like that?
No, it’s right wing ideology like that that I’m fighting.
OFG, love you but i gotta call pot-kettle-black here. just because there’s a dangerous right wing ideology, doesn’t mean we — each of us — don’t also have our own.
if you’re going to continue to pretend that scott didn’t give you links with evidence that you asked for, or refuse to honestly evaluate that evidence… well then, i’ve got to agree scott.
I look silly???
Which part of THEORY do you not understand??
Keynesian multipliers are THEORY. Believe it or not, there are economists, with lots of letters after their names and not just some dumbass old fat guy, who question Keynesian mulitpliers.
Are you suggesting they’re completely unaware of some evidence that only Keynesian economists have?
All of those links are THEORY. They are not evidence that X tax cut led to Y jobs.
And there’s a very simple explanation for why there is no such evidence. Because we don’t yet understand all the complexities of our economy enough to be able to say ANYTHING except offer theories.
And I’m NOT playing the I have to provide alternative data bullshit.
If someone posted on here “Al Gore is an Alien from Mars” I feel just fine responding “Bullshit, there’s no data to support that. Show me the data.”
And it’s up to the poster claiming Al Gore is an alien to come up with the data.
And here it’s up to those that claim tax cuts creates jobs to show me Y jobs that resulted from X tax cuts.
This is bizzare, suggesting I have to offer “counterevidence” to someone else’s claim. That’s NOT the way it works around here and you know it. If someone comes along and claims Obama is a Chinese plant to destroy our country, I would hope that it would be up to that person to provide evidence, and not up to others to provide evidence that it’s not true.
But maybe I’ve totally misunderstood this whole internet etiquette thing on whose responsibility it is to provide evidence. I always thought it was the one making the claim. If not, fine, I was wrong. It’s awfully hard for me to provide evidence for a claim though when I’m NOT MAKING ONE. I’m merely saying I don’t beleive other’s claim that “tax cuts creates jobs.”
If you, or others, would simply say “tax cuts might create jobs” then no more questions, no more claims of bullshit, no more disagreement. But no, everyone seems just fine to emphatically claim that tax cuts creates jobs, despite the fact that we’ve had over a decade of tax cuts and our unemployment is HIGHER than it was BEFORE the decade of tax cuts.
AND, if tax cuts creates jobs, then you’re also by definition saying that raising taxes loses jobs (you can’t have it both ways). And President Clinton RAISED taxes. And more jobs were created during his Presidency than under the Presidency of George W Bush and all of his tax cuts.
I’m done here though. When I’m being called an ideaologue for questioning right wing ideologue’s, that’s enough for me.
The great thing about this country is that you are all free to beleive in whatever you want. So enjoy your freedom. But don’t expect the average joe out there (who we need to persuade if we’re going to have influence) to believe things without data. And for the average joe out there, s/he’s seen 10 years of tax cuts from both W and Obama, and s/he still see’s unemployment higher than at any time in recent history. Good luck with that.
Oh gawd.
Major fail.
That post sounded angry. I am angry at being called an ideologue, but not AT anyone.
Jeebus I fail at this so badly I think it’s time for me to stop.
I wish all of you pups and readers out there the very best of luck. Tax cuts do, tax cuts don’t, tax cuts might, it’s all a bunch of crap when you’re faced with trying to keep a roof over your head and feed your family.
IMO NONE OF YOU, writers or readers, deserve the shitstorm that is coming. But I fear that doesn’t matter, as it is coming anyway. I wish the very best to all of you, firepups, readers, writers, and lurkers. Good luck, stay safe, and be well.
So long,
Joe
OldFatGuy
Sorry about that unintended sting, selise.
That perception of mine (about the lack of interaction with “deficit terrorists and errorists”) was partly generated by my aversion to ill-defined, stereotyping labels, or labels not widely understood. Candidly, “neoliberal” generally whizzes over my head without impact, for the most part, as does “Tea Party” – they’re too general and abstract to really capture the meaning usually intended, I think.
But more to the point, I’m focusing there too on interaction with Members of Congress – because I can’t get around the fact that no one else has the power to implement such changes. Yes, we may well need social movements to make Congress actually do that implementing, but it still needs to happen inside our federal legislative bodies in the end, if public policy is involved at the federal level. But, no, I never want anyone to remain silent in the face of the D (or R) party line. I think we may just have a difference of opinion about the best, or quickest, way to get results (which follows, in part, I believe, from our different perspectives – mine less informed – about the federal deficit question).
I think it’s fair to say from your comment @ 1:01 p.m. that you are in essence writing off a direct dialague or debate with Members of Congress about these issues, at least for the time being, as a hopeless cause. [As, it should be noted, Congress itself seems to be doing, since both Parties in Congress have disgracefully farmed out this vital debate and the resulting choices to a private discussion among a handful of Party members, heavily influenced by the President.] And, admittedly, a good many Members of Congress are deficit/inflation “hawks” mostly concerned with catering to the perceptions of other nations, and maintaining the inflow of foreign investment, rather than doing what’s best for the American people as a whole.
But I remain hopeful – if delusionally so – that there are enough tuned-in Members of Congress left who might respond to well-crafted arguments that listen to their side of the argument and urge them to reclaim this debate for the Congress, where it belongs. Again, that’s probably at least in part because I still side with many of the arguments about the long-term deficit/debt issue made by Members of Congress (if only because I’m not prepared to believe that our post-1971 experiences with a fiat currency can be expected to continue indefinitely). And yes, I’m absolutely focusing on “dollars,” not “real resources,” at this time, because that’s what Congress is largely focused on. [Our full human potential is our greatest natural resource, I think - is that the same as the "productivity" of our people?] We don’t have to care that the dollar-deficit declines with Medicare For All, but we can acknowledge that others do care, and that it therefore can be a good selling point for that policy, without sacrificing principles. [Thanks for the fwiw; I think it's long been clear that concrete policy objectives are what drive your MMT advocacy.]
In proposing solutions, again I’d weigh them against what’s gaining ground in Congress, because you don’t want to inadvertently help fuel, for example, the takedown of Social Security. And if we can focus on the policy that seems most urgent, or fundamental, to us, that’s what should get the most attention for the time being. Other, more unlikely changes should probably wait. I certainly agree that there will be a constant process of educating that parallels the policy advocacy – but, by first getting people enthusiastic about a particular policy, you should have a much easier time of explaining the underlying fundamentals to them along the way. [Just from the OFG discussions here, on which I was not focused, I absorbed this: Some tax cuts create jobs. So specifics and qualifiers, as always, are important.]
Finally, I agree that moral hazard already exists with regard to deficit spending for Members of Congress. But even the limited restraints that still remain would be blown away, if “money grows on trees” comes to predominate the thinking about federal spending. And, as you’ve warned yourself, what if that theory turns out to be wrong, and/or other nations finally conclude that providing us real resources in exchange for “electronic bits” (U.S. dollars) isn’t all that it’s been cracked up to be?
(((OFG)))
jmo, but i think it’s ok to be angry (although, i’d rather you not leave). i’m angry too (not at you).
i know. that’s what i care about too. (if you think i don’t care and that i don’t act angry, just take a look at my comments on this link).
if a comment is honestly meant (as your’s was) and not intended as point scoring, personal attacks, etc. there’s no problem. (but, still… thanks)
i agree. in addition, way too easy to use as slurs, rather than helpful short descriptions.
however, most people don’t read with the attention to detail that you do… and i’m too lazy to try to explain every time. don’t know what to do about that…
to implement, yes. but apparently not the power to instigate (at least without paying a price. for example, see feingold).
i guess i see an engaged citizenry as the instigators for change. but what do i know?
and you know far more than i ever will about how congress actually operates.
yes. i am. (but only because i’ve already wasted a ton of time on it — well, not wasted. i met some really great people. but that had nothing to do with congress).
however, this doesn’t mean i’d ever discourage anyone else from trying, especially if they have the kind of access i don’t have. (i once had a one-on-one meeting with my representative, at his request, and i don’t think he heard a word that i said — different subject though).
i don’t get this. why does the usa need foreign investment?
…. getting back to the economics:
what are the arguments about the “long-term deficit/debt issue” that you side with? serious question, would love to know specifics. i don’t understand how hoarding dollars (something the fed govt can create at will) can protect us from an uncertain future.
do you mean that the usa would go back on the gold standard or something? or that we can’t expect the usa to have global reserve currency status forever?
if it’s the later, then how does limiting deficit spending prepare us for that? i’d think it would be exactly the opposite… that preparation means investing in the country for the future: education, health, environment, resource independence insofar as we as able (things like rebuilding energy institutions and infrastructure to make us less dependent on imports), strong industrial base, r&d, etc.
i think those members of congress are wrong to focus on that (and i’m pretty sure that at least one member of the senate knows exactly what’s going on, but that doesn’t stop his public deficit hawk rhetoric). i expect many members are confusing their household finances (households are currency users) with the fed govt (which is a monopoly currency issuer) and as a result obsessing about make-believe problems while ignoring (for the most part) the very real problems our country (and its people) are facing.
[Our full human potential is our greatest natural resource, I think - is that the same as the "productivity" of our people?]
well, i guess when i wrote that i was referring to economic-type productivity because i associate that with a nation’s resource while full human potential seems to me more of global resource. don’t know if that distinction makes sense though (even to me).
i don’t think so. maybe because i don’t see how attempts to reduce the deficit are not without a real cost. and right now and real danger. quoting wilvick from a comment upthread:
strongly agreed. (although we may disagree about how to go about that).
i agree, but i’m not sure how to do this. for OFG, for example, i tried the qualifiers early on and asked they helped. but i also ran into the problem that too many qualifiers can misrepresent my pov. for example: “some tax cuts create jobs” sounds, to me anyway, as if it might be something that happens only occasionally. in the absence of full employment, has there ever been a time when a fed govt. income tax cut (or payroll tax cut) would not or has not created jobs?
that doesn’t mean i favor all tax cuts at anytime and anywhere. not by a long shot. but that’s because of other things (not jobs).
i guess i have to figure out what qualifiers work for the reader and also work for me (because i think they are accurate). right now i have no idea how to do that, but your advice seems excellent to me.
i’m not sure what restraints still remain — other than harmful ones about the necessity of SS and medicare cuts. those restraints i’d like to see blown away. not that i think there should be no restraints, just not the false ones. let’s have real restraints based on outcomes like inflation, externalities, financial stability (including exchange rates), and a whole host of things i expect i know nothing about. different people will have different priorities, but that’s where political discussions and decisions come in. using a false (hard) constraint like the “debt limit” is, imo, no substitute for the real kind.
if it’s wrong then the faster we find out the better. but, the process is not helped along when mishel (and krugman) misrepresent the mmt position or worse, it’sexcluded it from the discussion entirely.
obsessing over deficit spending seems to me the opposite of what we should be doing if we’re worried about maintaining dollar reserve currency status (maybe i’m wrong about that, but i haven’t seen an arguments that make and sense to me — not saying they don’t exist, just that i haven’t seen them).
[p.s. nice to find something i really like about myfdl: how long the comments stay open. wow, i had no idea! think what we could have done with filibuster working threads!]
My reply to powwow’s argument is here: http://my.firedoglake.com/letsgetitdone/2011/06/10/spare-me-the-%E2%80%9Cmiddle-ground%E2%80%9D-please/
lets, commenting room is not running out here. at this point, the comment thread here is still open for comments, including replies to powwow and/or me. to my knowledge this was the first conversation powwow has ever had with anyone about MMT. powwow has been open minded and willing to engage in a long dialogue, to read long pieces i linked to and over all willing to consider new (and crazy sounding) ideas. it wasn’t a debate. it was a discussion. calling powwow out by name, especially on other blogs powwow may not read (correntewire, dailykos, ourfuture), is not a friendly gesture. i know you have a (negative) history with powwow, but i wish your posts had not called out powwow by name and had instead dealt only with the issues.
jmo, but i think this is a very good way to discourage commenters from engaging the kind of discussion we’ve had here.